Life22

Our Interview today is with Author, Pastor Jackson Lahmeyer, for his book; "Chasing After the Wind".  
  
Order his book at:  https://books.jacksonlahmeyer.com/
  
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Website:  https://www.jacksonlahmeyer.com/    
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Creators and Guests

Host
Dr. Rev. Kevin M. Dougherty
Life22 Founder and Podcast Host. Father of 4 and Husband of 1.
Guest
Jackson Lahmeyer
Pastor. Leader. Entrepreneur. Jackson Lahmeyer serves as the Lead Pastor of the historic Sheridan Christian Center in Tulsa, OK – now known as Sheridan.Church. He is the founder of Pastors For Trump. Jackson and his wife, Kendra, have five children and reside in Owasso, Oklahoma. ​ ​ ​ Lahmeyer attended Oral Roberts University (ORU) and received a B.A. & M.A. in Theological & Historical Studies, graduating Magna Cum Laude. Lahmeyer was then appointed to serve as the Crusade Director traveling the United States for Christ for All Nations, the ministry of Reinhard Bonnke that has helped lead 74,000,000 people to Christ since 1974. While serving as the Crusade Director, Lahmeyer served as the Oklahoma State Coordinator for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association leading more than 300 churches across Oklahoma’s 77 counties to get engaged and fight for conservative values. ​ In 2021-2022, Lahmeyer was a candidate for the United States Senate in Oklahoma. He was endorsed by Mayor Rudy Giuliani, General Michael Flynn, Roger Stone, Sebastian Gorka, Mike Lindell and other America First leaders.

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This is My Life! It's not Easy, It's Interesting, and It's Cereal!

"Satire is not a fabric in reality, but it can exist as part of the fabric of reality." ~Kevin M. Dougherty~

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Kevin Dougherty: Awesome. Hey guys, Kevin here, Life22 Studios, and I've got my guest today is Jackson Lehmeyer. Am I pronouncing that right?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Close, it's Lawmire, it's a good German last name.

Kevin Dougherty: Lomer. Okay.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Lawmire. Meyer.

Kevin Dougherty: Law. Yes. Lawmire, okay.

Kevin Dougherty: And so, Pastor Jackson here is, where you… where do you preach out of?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Oklahoma City, Oklahoma.

Kevin Dougherty: Oh, okay, gotcha. And you're, so from what I hear is you're on the spiritual council for the president?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah, I serve on the White House Faith Office, as well as the National Faith Advisory Board.

Kevin Dougherty: Okay. What do those boards do? Just for…

Jackson Lahmeyer: Well, the White House Faith Office is primarily engaged to protect religious liberty. It's a governmental office.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And then the National Faith Advisory Board is more of a policy, board to advance a Christian agenda, whether that be with life, marriage, you name it. So they're two different things, but they work in hand-in-hand.

Kevin Dougherty: Gotcha. Okay. Well, that's… that's… that's something handy to have, right? Like, everybody needs that…

Kevin Dougherty: that mix, right? Because if it was predominantly one over the other, I know past, not to try to get political, right, but that's kind of what those boards are. They're very political. In the past, you've got, you know, we've got situations going on in Minnesota, stuff like that, where you're only hearing one

Kevin Dougherty: You know, different group of religious, you know, people, kind of.

Kevin Dougherty: And there's, there's kind of some turmoil now, because there's no mediation, really.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah.

Kevin Dougherty: So…

Kevin Dougherty: Alright, and then, you had the book Chasing After the Wind, which is the book that I just finished a couple weeks ago, and you just put out another book, Divided.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yes.

Jackson Lahmeyer: I've been riding a little bit this year, so it's been a… I guess.

Kevin Dougherty: I was, I was reading my 7-year-old this morning. I told him, I said, I said, your dad's interviewing somebody today, who wrote, it seems like, two books in two months. That's what it seems like, at least from my perspective, and I'm like, have you read two books this month? And he goes, no, Dad, there was the holidays. And I'm like, well…

Kevin Dougherty: Like, get at it.

Jackson Lahmeyer: To be fair, I wrote two books in one year, so Chasing After the Wind, was from January to the spring, and then Divided was from, the end of summer to just now. So, it was over a full year, but, you know, it was a lot of work.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, oh, I bet. No, I… I…

Kevin Dougherty: I've always thought about writing, and it was one of those… I've been kind of, like, dabbling in it, but it's one of those, you know, it's a lot of work. I hear from a lot of writers, I talk to a lot of writers, I'm a member of the Peterson Academy.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Okay, very cool.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, yeah, so I've taken some of their classes on writing, just to kind of get my, you know… like, if I don't do something, it's never gonna happen.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah, you gotta take that first step. It's the hardest step, but you gotta take that first step.

Kevin Dougherty: That's what my wife yells at me about, because I have a whole bunch of, like, house projects that are all at first step.

Kevin Dougherty: They just, they get the first step. Right. Mechanics have broken down cars.

Kevin Dougherty: Carpenters have half-built houses, you know.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yay.

Kevin Dougherty: Hairdressers, the only exception to the rules, hairdressers. They always have, like, phenomenal hair that takes hours of maintenance. That's true.

Jackson Lahmeyer: That is true, that is very true.

Kevin Dougherty: But that's the difference between women and men, too, so that's the, you know…

Kevin Dougherty: Dedication to the one thing, you know, so…

Jackson Lahmeyer: They multitask a lot better. They do. They do much better at that.

Kevin Dougherty: Right. So, chasing after the wind, I want to start with that one. What…

Kevin Dougherty: I guess, what inspired you to write it? Because, I mean, well, I mean, obviously, besides the… one of the…

Kevin Dougherty: At the beginning, you, you acknowledged one of your buddies who's been pushing you to write this book forever.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yes. Yeah, it's, my own journey, actually, you know, it's, this, this book right here, Chasing After the Wind, Why Nobody is catching, what everyone is chasing.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And the thesis of the book is pretty basic. We're all chasing the wind, whether we are black, white, Republican, Democrat, whether we're young, old, rich, poor, doesn't matter what category you may fall in, we're all chasing the wind, and the wind, is happiness. The wind is happiness. We all want to be happy. That's why we do what we do, for better or for worse.

Jackson Lahmeyer: The pursuit of happiness can lead people to some very, very poor decisions. Alcoholism, or addiction to drugs, or overeating, whatever it may be. Those things, they give us a temporal

Jackson Lahmeyer: sense of happiness. And so we're all chasing it, and the sad part is, none of us are actually catching it. But we think to ourselves, you know, the… if I just had this…

Jackson Lahmeyer: then I would be happy.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And we get whatever that is, and we're happy for a moment, and then it's fleeting, like the wind, you never truly catch it, and so this was my own journey.

Jackson Lahmeyer: My wife would always tell me, you know, you're never content. You accomplish one thing, and then, you gotta completely do something else, and you're just never content, because, yeah, I was chasing the wind. I want to be happy, and, you know, as a pastor, if I just had 100 more members.

Jackson Lahmeyer: then I'd be happy. And you get 100 more members, and then their problems become your problems. Or if I just had a bigger building for the church, I'd be happy.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And you get a bigger building, and then all of a sudden, your maintenance expenses go way up, and so it's this constant journey that we're all on, and so the book is my journey, going through the scriptures, of finding how can I have happiness, peace, and contentment in this life, not just in the next life.

Jackson Lahmeyer: but in this life, and that's the journey I went on to write the book, and, you know, it helped me personally, and we've had a ton of people say that it's helped them as well.

Kevin Dougherty: Oh, yeah, and so a book… yeah, because a topic like that, in general, just chasing the wind, right? Chasing that happiness, that's… because without a roadmap, without a path.

Kevin Dougherty: for people to follow it, I mean, that's the story of every drug addict, right? Like, they're just tracing that… chasing that dragon, is what they call it, right? Yep. Yeah. My, my father died of alcoholism, and he, like, literally, he would, you know, just… he would just keep tracing it, just to get to the next… the next beer, the next bottom of the glass, right? And that was the…

Kevin Dougherty: You know, and you have that, and without proper guidance and whatnot. So I guess I should probably preface this. I did a video the other day, and I was trying to get it out before I interviewed you, because I had read your book, and then I was like, you know what, I need to put out my stands on there.

Kevin Dougherty: And so…

Kevin Dougherty: people in my generation, and I'm sure you're probably in the same generation category, if you don't mind me asking, 39?

Jackson Lahmeyer: You're close, I'm 34.

Kevin Dougherty: 34, okay, I'm 37. So, we're in that same generation.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Oh, yeah.

Kevin Dougherty: We're in this society where divorce is common and prevalent, and, you know, secularism is at an all-time high, and…

Kevin Dougherty: growing up, my parents were like, yeah, you're Catholic, you were baptized Catholic, and it's like…

Kevin Dougherty: I hear Matt Walsh talk about those people, people like me online all the time. Well, I was Catholic. It's like, well, yeah, but you're not anymore, right? Like, that's… if you're not going, you're not Catholic, right? Sure.

Kevin Dougherty: And it was never really pushed on us kids, so, like, I grew up as, you know, I kind of find myself as a… I'm…

Kevin Dougherty: I'm one of the people who have not found God.

Kevin Dougherty: Right? Like, I don't know I truly believe, I also don't know that I can't… I'm not in that secular, you talk to somebody with purple hair and they tell you, like, no, he doesn't exist. It's not… it's all fake. And it's like.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yep.

Kevin Dougherty: But you haven't shown me anything to prove that it's not. And so I'm not saying that God doesn't exist, I'm just saying I haven't found him yet. Because I… I haven't found anything that's opened me up, but I'm very interested in talking to people like yourself, and listening to Ben Shapiro, and Jordan Peterson, and guys like Matt Walsh, and… because you guys at least have a roadmap.

Kevin Dougherty: I don't listen to this lady with the purple hair, because she doesn't believe in anything, and she doesn't, you know, she doesn't have a… like, she has no path to find happiness and fulfillment and things like that, so… I commend you for writing a, you know, writing a book about, like, you know, finding that stuff, you know?

Jackson Lahmeyer: I try to be very practical. I try to be very practical, in a sense, because a lot of us, we can be up in the ivory tower of thought and ideas, and never bring it down to real life, you know, where we actually

Jackson Lahmeyer: live. And so I try to be very, very practical. I give the, what I call the ultimate, guide to happiness, which is, it's very basic and practical about

Jackson Lahmeyer: walking in forgiveness towards people, you know? When you hold on to bitterness, and when you hold on to unforgiveness, it causes you, not them, it causes you to become miserable. And so, if you want to have peace in your life, if you want to have happiness or joy, whatever term you want to use.

Jackson Lahmeyer: you have to be willing to forgive people, and then I walk through, how do you actually forgive somebody, you know? How do you do that?

Jackson Lahmeyer: And, there's just practical things that you can do to bring about a peace and a contentment.

Kevin Dougherty: Right, yeah, no, and… I think a lot of people's hesitation is…

Kevin Dougherty: And so when I was listening to that part of the book, I was like, man, I know a lot of people, a lot of family members, too, that will just hold on to stuff, you know, and then… and social media is a…

Kevin Dougherty: perfect place for it, right? That's a… it's a cesspool of it, and you get people that are, you know, one side of the political aisle or the other, and they're willing to kill each other over it, and it's like, man, why can't you just forgive it? Why can't we have a conversation? Why can't we forgive and forget? And I think coming to the table on a conversation.

Kevin Dougherty: doing more of that, I believe, would lead people to, you know, having more forgiveness. But we're… everyone's so isolated in their own little phone bubble that I don't think it's… it's as practical as it used to be, but…

Jackson Lahmeyer: I think social media has thrown a new variable into the human experience.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And it's a relatively very new variable that we have not adjusted to of learning how to handle it. And so you see people, like you said, that don't even know the person they're arguing with, and they get so mad, they literally want to, like, go kill them. You know, I get death threats non-stop on social media. And these people don't even know me. It's just because they disagree with my political stance, my theological stance.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And, you know, it's, aspect. Yeah, yeah, it's crazy.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, your idea on traditional forms of marriage and stuff like that, that's… that's going to eradicate people, right? Isn't that what they say? You know, they just kind of toss that out there.

Kevin Dougherty: The other thing is that there's a lot of people out there that don't live wholesome, fulfilling lives, and they're out there chasing a different dragon, chasing a different, you know, gust of wind, and…

Kevin Dougherty: like, I see it in the local political scene more than I do at the national level, because you don't get the behind-the-door scenes as you would locally, that you, you know, like, you just… you know people personally at this level. Yeah. At my level, anyways, and they…

Kevin Dougherty: And they're all… they're probably doing the same stuff all the way up the line, but it's… you don't see it, and it's like, everyone's out for themselves, they're narcissistic, they're, you know, selfish, they… they're not willing to forgive other people, they hold grudges, and I think you captured it really well in one of your stories about a little bird being stuck in cow ducks

Kevin Dougherty: In Chasing the wind, Chasing the.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Good story, isn't not original with me, but I thought it was a pretty good story.

Kevin Dougherty: It was, I enjoyed it, because it's like, man, that,

Kevin Dougherty: Now you're gonna get… you're gonna forgive me, because it's been a couple weeks since I… but I remember the little bird got stuck in, and the first… the first actor, it was kind of afraid, like, oh man, this is… this… this cow or whatever is gonna get me, you know.

Kevin Dougherty: get me out of here, and then it, you know, and then all of a sudden it was like, no, I'm safe. And then, oh no, I'm stuck again, I'm in another problem, and then the next thing that came along was the cat that ate it.

Kevin Dougherty: And then it was, you know, it's just one of those that you never know who to trust, you never know…

Kevin Dougherty: Who's telling the truth, who's lying to you, who's trying to get one-up on you, and it's like…

Kevin Dougherty: I did a whole series on my podcast recently about lying, and honesty, and truth, and just trying to, like…

Kevin Dougherty: If you live your life in truth, then at least… at least you're not the one lying.

Kevin Dougherty: You know, and it's like…

Kevin Dougherty: And then you go on more faith, though, with other people, and that could be to your detriment, you know? But it's… and I think people's afraid of, you know, their own self-preservation, right? Like, if you just go on faith that this person's not lying to you, and you go in that direction.

Kevin Dougherty: you know.

Kevin Dougherty: It could be the cat that eats you, you know?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yes.

Kevin Dougherty: That's.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah, that's where I believe discernment is so important.

Jackson Lahmeyer: In the world that we live in, especially in a world filled with filters. You know, you really, you really don't know who the person is. I mean, you see all these stories of, people who are, you know, in the dating world getting catfished.

Jackson Lahmeyer: It's, you know, filters, and it's the world we live in. You don't know if you're dealing with reality, if you're dealing with a simulation, and so you have to have discernment, and I believe that discernment is something that develops with experience, obviously. I don't think you just naturally, you know, can discern good from evil, right from wrong. You've taught it, you experience it.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And… but our world needs more of it.

Kevin Dougherty: Right, oh yeah, for sure. That's,

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, it's… it's something that we all struggle with, and I… you know, it's…

Kevin Dougherty: what do you, you know, what do you… what do you do about it? And except for just keep playing the game, right? Keep living out your life, and…

Jackson Lahmeyer: Stay in the story. That's what I tell everybody. You gotta just stay in the story. Don't quit. Stay in the story, you'll make it.

Kevin Dougherty: Right, yeah.

Kevin Dougherty: So,

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, the, actually, I was… another part in your, your book, actually inspired me. I was going to be my next book, but, you released another one so quickly on me that I, it became… it took a backseat, was, in the… I think it was towards the end of your, your, the Chasing the Wind, was, you talk about…

Kevin Dougherty: Everyone, you've read a bunch of things about reading the Bible.

Kevin Dougherty: You know, you… but how many people actually sit down to read the Bible?

Kevin Dougherty: I believe you have a reference in there to that, and it was… it kind of inspired me to read the Bible.

Kevin Dougherty: And so that was going to be the next book that I actually read, because I've watched a hundred breakdowns by, you know, Dennis Prager on it, or, you know, Jordan Peterson did a gospel series, and you just… you would take a lot more of it as you become more accepting of, you know, hey, like, listen, I might not believe everything that's here, but there's something to be said about

Kevin Dougherty: You know, one tome.

Kevin Dougherty: that has consolidated human history of a decent, moral way to live your life. And if it was good enough to make it into the book, and it stood the test of time, then there's gotta be something to be said about it, instead of, you know, the secular way of thinking of throw it out with the bathwater, you know?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah. Well, I would encourage you, before you read my book, definitely read the Bible. The Bible's way better than my book. My book is a tad bit of the Bible, but the Bible's much, much better.

Kevin Dougherty: Okay, well, I… I will, I will put, I'll put yours down for a moment.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Mine on the shelf, yes.

Kevin Dougherty: I will put yours on the shelf, because I'd like to have you back so we can discuss that one more in depth.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah. You're down on it.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, so, that, that'll probably be my next book. I actually, I also put a pin in Jordan Peterson's, you know, Chasing, or, Chasing, the, We Who Struggle with God.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Dougherty: So… which is what inspired me initially to do the We Who Have Not Found Him, right?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yes.

Kevin Dougherty: Because it's… it is a struggle. It's, you know, especially when you're raised in today's society where there is no, like, you know, 100 years ago, you went, and everybody in your community went to church, or went to synagogue, or went to mosque, or, you know, wherever you were from. Like, you go overseas, and it, you know.

Kevin Dougherty: You go to Saudi Arabia right now, everybody's at mosque, and you're doing it daily, you know, and they're… they're praying so many times a day, and they're following it. And, I mean, essentially, there's consequences if you don't. We just don't have any consequences, and… Right.

Jackson Lahmeyer: We allow you to choose whether you would like to attend or not, and you know, but to your point, you know, there's a lot of people

Jackson Lahmeyer: That are in our age bracket and younger, that,

Jackson Lahmeyer: have seen such fraud and hypocrisy. It's been a major turn-off, because we are attracted to more authenticity.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And… but they're seeking right now. There's so many that are in our age bracket that they're seeking truth.

Jackson Lahmeyer: They have been sold a bag of goods called, liberalism, wokeism, whatever you want to define it as, that has not worked. You know, we're the only generation to, you know, buy into the lie that there might be more than two genders, which every human being for all of the…

Jackson Lahmeyer: you know, all of human history have believed two genders, and then all of a sudden we got 77. And so…

Jackson Lahmeyer: People on our age are seeking truth.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And there's a great promise in the Bible from Jesus.

Jackson Lahmeyer: He says, if you seek, You will find.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And so, as people begin to seek truth, begin to seek, is there a God, and if there is a God, who is this God?

Jackson Lahmeyer: There is a promise from God. If you seek, you will find. And God says, if you'll draw near to me, I will draw near to you. And so, God likes to play a game called hide and seek.

Jackson Lahmeyer: There are times when God hides Himself so that we will seek Him, because God is relational. If God exposed Himself in such an overwhelming manner.

Jackson Lahmeyer: that it was undeniable that He exists. There would be no free will in the sense of seeking Him personally. And so, those that are our age, if you seek, God has made you a promise. You will find.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And if you'll draw near to Him, He will then draw near to you, and I would just encourage people, encourage you, you know, continue to seek. And, there is a promise from God Himself.

Jackson Lahmeyer: That, you will find.

Kevin Dougherty: I was gonna say, I've…

Kevin Dougherty: Well, as you're aware, I haven't read the Bible. I've read passages and stuff like that, but…

Kevin Dougherty: the,

Kevin Dougherty: I actually bought 10 of them, they're sitting in my office. I bought 10 of them on Amazon so I could hand them. There's a drug house down the road. I figured, hey, honey, if we can't get them by, like, just posting up in front of the drug house, I'm gonna…

Kevin Dougherty: I'm gonna just go over there and… but then, you know, you're a guy who's never read the Bible, so, like, just pick a random passage and read it to him. Is it gonna relate? Like, I told her, I was like, I…

Kevin Dougherty: I still have them. I wasn't gonna throw them away. It's one of those, it's musical instruments, you know, religious artifacts, Bibles, books, I don't know, I won't throw any book away, you know? Yeah. Even if it's… even if it's Karl Marx's book, because you should at least be there as a, you know, as an omen, like…

Jackson Lahmeyer: I've got the same book on my bookshelf, too.

Kevin Dougherty: Karl Marx's Communist Manifest.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Communist Manifesto.

Kevin Dougherty: Oh, yeah. So, it's one of those, you know, it goes up there with the art of war and everything else, you know, but

Kevin Dougherty: No, yeah, I had, that, that line, the, if you seek…

Kevin Dougherty: If you seek, you will find. Was actually, like.

Kevin Dougherty: I'm a big Jim Croce fan. And so, I just… he… one of his songs has that in there, and it's one of his older ones where he does more, like.

Kevin Dougherty: more gospel hymn, kind of like the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band. They have a lot of that in their earlier stuff, where it's the same way Johnny Cash started, you know? It was… it started more from a religious place, you know, and then made its way in, so…

Jackson Lahmeyer: It's a promise… it's a promise from God. And, I've never…

Jackson Lahmeyer: experienced anyone, and this is anecdotal evidence, it's my experience, never experienced anybody who sought the Lord.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And sought truth, who eventually did not find it. And so…

Jackson Lahmeyer: I would just encourage people, listen, we're living in a world full of many voices, and you need truth in order to discern what is right, what is wrong, because so much

Jackson Lahmeyer: is being said out there. There's so many voices, right? And you don't want to fall into deception, so you have to know the truth. And another good promise is that if you know the truth, you'll be free. And we all want to be free.

Jackson Lahmeyer: So, continue to seek, and yeah, that's awesome about the Bibles, though, man. That's fantastic.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, I just got a whole pile of them. I was gonna sit out there and,

Kevin Dougherty: It was one of those, I… I wasn't versed enough yet to be able to just kind of, like, flip to a page, because I, you know, I'd probably pull the John 3.16, and, you know, I probably could make something work, but I'm… like, somebody in your line of work would be able to…

Kevin Dougherty: make it happen, or know exactly which portion, I'm gonna be…

Jackson Lahmeyer: tell you, you just familiarize yourself with the Gospel of John, you'll be solid.

Kevin Dougherty: Okay.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, I, a lot of my friends, too, because they're like, Kevin, you're not much of a religious guy, and I had just bought an old dry cleaning business in our area. It was… it's a… at least just the building.

Kevin Dougherty: And the address on it, it used to be the John Ash Cleaners, but it's… the address is 316. So right at the front, in the mosaic tile, it says John Ash316.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Oh, that's cool.

Kevin Dougherty: And so when I bought it, I was like, well, that's a really biblical reference there, and the Lebanese family I bought it from, they're like, you know what?

Kevin Dougherty: we've been working here our entire childhoods, and they're in their 60s now, and they're like, I never recognized… you know, and it's one of those.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Wow. Yeah.

Kevin Dougherty: So, it's just,

Kevin Dougherty: And it's one of those things, I guess you can… once your eyes are open, you can…

Kevin Dougherty: you can see… you can see a lot more, right? Yeah. Like, was it, Plato's The Cave?

Kevin Dougherty: I don't know how that relates to the Bible, but, you know, it's just another way of discerning, I guess.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yes.

Kevin Dougherty: based on perspective.

Kevin Dougherty: So… I was gonna say, I had a few other things on your book, and…

Kevin Dougherty: I, let's see here…

Kevin Dougherty: It would have helped when I screenshotted different sections of it if I actually did some highlighting.

Kevin Dougherty: I believe it was the section on the acres of the diamonds in your house.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah!

Kevin Dougherty: It was the gentleman who, who bought the land with the diamonds in the rough.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yes.

Kevin Dougherty: And everybody else kept passing over it, because they didn't… I guess, right to that last point we just talked about, right? They…

Kevin Dougherty: They didn't have… Experience, or the… the… perspective.

Kevin Dougherty: to see something different, so…

Jackson Lahmeyer: I think there's a great, great life lesson from that story, Acres of Diamonds. It's a true story. Jensen Franklin, who's a friend of mine, actually wrote the book, about this story, which inspired me.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And yeah, it's, you know, there was a farmer here in America that, couldn't grow anything on his land because it was full of these rocks, and it was just terrible to plow. And so he left everything. His family, the land.

Jackson Lahmeyer: for a story that was being told that there was a river in India where you could just scoop your hand in there and you could pull out gold, and he left everything for it.

Jackson Lahmeyer: He got over there and found out it was one of the nastiest rivers known to mankind. And another gentleman bought the farm and had the same problems. The second farmer, couldn't grow anything.

Jackson Lahmeyer: But he kept plowing with the same plow that the other farmer did, and…

Jackson Lahmeyer: He hit this really big stone once, nice, big, black, beautiful stone. He put it on the mantle of his fireplace, and after a while, he had a visitor, and the visitor saw what was on the mantle of the fireplace, and he asked the farmer, do you know what that is? The farmer said, I don't know what it is, but I know these things are everywhere.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And he said, that's a diamond in the rough. And come to find out, that piece of property was the largest diamond mine, in the United States of America. And sometimes, what you can see as a problem may actually be your blessing, and you just have to stay in the story.

Jackson Lahmeyer: You don't leave, you continue to plow. Continue to plow the field that God has given you to plow.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And, for me, it was a really touching moment, because I almost left my church. I was plowing, and we just kept hitting rocks. There was no growth, there was nothing, and I thought I was doing the wrong thing. And that story caused me to recognize that I might be sitting on acres of diamonds, and the last thing I want to do is leave.

Jackson Lahmeyer: For something that I don't even know was real. And so I stayed, and sure enough, under my feet was acres of diamonds, and now our church is, you know, prospering and doing so well. And, it's a beautiful story. It's a beautiful story. Stay in your marriage.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Listen, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Continue to plow the field that God has given you, and if you'll keep doing it, you'll have success.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, actually, on this path, me and my wife ended up getting married after… after 10 years, of being together and having kids and all that other stuff, and as I'm following this path, I talked to her, and we sat down, and we had a discussion, and we're like, you know what? Like, we actually have to do this, because if we're just gonna sit on the fence and not be committed…

Kevin Dougherty: to anything, then what are we committed to? And it was one of those, you, you, you just…

Kevin Dougherty: it's part of that, you know, staying in the story, right? And so I wanted her to stay in the story with me, and vice versa, and also for the kids, you know, and having all that, and .

Jackson Lahmeyer: Congratulations.

Kevin Dougherty: Thanks, I appreciate it. I'm, we're… we're a year and a… we're almost 2 years through it.

Kevin Dougherty: Okay.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah!

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, so,

Kevin Dougherty: you know, and that doesn't discount our past, either, of, you know, 10 years behind us, but, you know, it's… it is what it is, and the, the other thing was, so to your point about the grass isn't always greener on the other side, that's,

Kevin Dougherty: it makes you change your perspective, I guess, you know, because, like you were saying earlier, if you… if you don't seek God, He's not…

Kevin Dougherty: you know, if you don't… if he goes and hides on you, which is what the diamonds are, right? That's where God was hiding, right? That's… he made you kind of change your perspective to find the beauty in something.

Kevin Dougherty: the diamonds. Your… your… your parish, your congregation, you know what I mean? Like, those are the things that you… you need to kind of take a step back.

Kevin Dougherty: look at the whole picture, find Waldo, and say, okay, wait a minute.

Kevin Dougherty: I've been staring at the same… instead of going to a different piece of art, I found it right here, at the thing I've been staring at the whole time.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah, I think there's truth to that. Anything worthwhile takes effort.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Anything worthwhile takes effort. And, whether you're seeking God, whether you're building a business, whether you are growing a relationship, it requires effort on your part, and I think too many of us have this, we just want it handed to us, and if it's not easy, then we want to move on to something else. And I think it's a real detriment in our culture, actually. Entitlement is such

Jackson Lahmeyer: a issue, that I see.

Jackson Lahmeyer: In our age bracket, and those younger than us.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And, you know, good things do require solid effort. And that's why I say stay in the story, because a lot of times, when the story gets a little rough, we want to exit stage right.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And listen, to get to the good part, you gotta go through the hard part, you know? It's… it's… we want the good part, we don't want the hard part, but there is the hard part. There is that time of unknown. There is that time of seeking. There is that time of digging and plowing, and if you'll stay in the story.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And if you won't quit, you'll make it, and you'll make it to the good part.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, that, I don't know if you remember infomercials when we were kids.

Kevin Dougherty: And… and they were…

Jackson Lahmeyer: Could I not? I bombarded with them every night.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, right. Well, I mean, most people, you know, it's one of those things, I just remember when eBay was getting big, they were all over the place. Buy my book.

Kevin Dougherty: I'll give you the easy, quick steps to being a millionaire. It was essentially, it was essentially the condensed version of Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad Poor Dad with none of the steak and potatoes. It was literally, this is what I did, it worked for me, I'm one in a million, good luck, thanks for buying my book, because you just made me…

Jackson Lahmeyer: You're making me richer, yes. Right.

Kevin Dougherty: Where I'm a huge fan of Robert Kiyosaki, and I saw that,

Kevin Dougherty: you had, you referenced him in the acknowledgements at the beginning of the book, where there was things they say about Jackson, you know, and it was,

Kevin Dougherty: I'm… I'm a big fan of his, he caused me to…

Kevin Dougherty: look more introspectively into my businesses and stuff like that to keep them growing, and… and just a different outlook on the monetary system and stuff, so it's… it's one of those, but I just…

Kevin Dougherty: People are always trying to do that get-rich-quick scheme, so that you guys…

Jackson Lahmeyer: work.

Kevin Dougherty: It doesn't work. No, no, you've got to put forth something. Every time, I'm like, man, I just got all this stuff done. I can kick my feet up, and nope, because as soon as I do that, it's like, -oh, because you're always 2 seconds on the stage of the, you know, the edge of bankruptcy, it seems like.

Kevin Dougherty: like you said, more, you know, you kind of referenced the biggie Smalls aspect of it, right? Mo money, mo' problems?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Right, bigger parish.

Kevin Dougherty: Bigger building.

Kevin Dougherty: More maintenance costs. Now I need to have that 100 extra parishioners to, you know, to beg them for a tithing, you know what I mean? And then it's like, now I've covered the maintenance costs, but now it's like, now I need a bigger building, because now I have more people that can sustain it.

Kevin Dougherty: And it's just, it's an ever… it's an ever-growing chase.

Kevin Dougherty: So.

Jackson Lahmeyer: We continue to seek, we continue to run, run your race. Life is a race. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And we run, and we try to run well. Sometimes we trip and fall. The Bible says, though, that the righteous may fall seven times, they get up eight. And that's the key.

Jackson Lahmeyer: You may fall 7 times, but if you'll get up 8 times, you'll make it. And that's really, you know, I've been in journeys with so many different people and their walks of life.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And the key to running your race well is simply getting up whenever you fall. And if you'll continue to get up whenever you fall, you will finish your race. And that's what we all want to do. We all want to finish the race.

Jackson Lahmeyer: That we're running. And, listen, I'll tell you, it's a whole lot easier to run your race with the help of the Lord, when you can lean on God, who has a tendency to be able to give you extra strength whenever, you know, you have kind of depleted all of your emotional

Jackson Lahmeyer: physical, relational, financial resources, but I just really think, you know, our age group, you know, we've seen so much, we've experienced so much with the world changing so rapidly, new variables being thrown into life experiences.

Jackson Lahmeyer: That the key is just continue to get up whenever you fall. And if you'll do that, you'll make it.

Kevin Dougherty: Awesome. Where is… I'm… I'm grabbing a pen right now, because where is… where can someone find… you fall… so, like I said, I'm a new guy for the Bible, right? So where would I find that verse?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Book of Proverbs, it's a Proverbs. The righteous may fall seven times, but they'll get up.

Jackson Lahmeyer: 8 times. Book of Proverbs.

Kevin Dougherty: I'm gonna… I'm gonna keep that down, cause I might.

Jackson Lahmeyer: I'm gonna… I gotta build my collection, right? I gotta…

Kevin Dougherty: I'm gonna build my toolbox.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Hey, let me, let me give you, let me give you a, we'll call it a, pro tip.

Kevin Dougherty: Okay.

Jackson Lahmeyer: So, there are typically, not every month, but there's typically 31 days in a month. There are 31 proverbs. And so, an encouragement, if you don't know what to read, say today is January the 5th.

Jackson Lahmeyer: go to the book of Proverbs and read Proverbs 5. There's one proverb for every day, and this is all about growing in wisdom and discernment, which is what we need. We need discernment, we need wisdom. So there's 31 Proverbs, there's typically 31 days in a month, so whatever day you're on, you wake up and it's…

Jackson Lahmeyer: January the 15th, and you're like, I should… I want to read a passage of the Bible. Go read Proverbs 15, and you will see

Jackson Lahmeyer: Tremendous growth in your wisdom and your discernment.

Kevin Dougherty: Do you have a recommendation on… I'm gonna take that pro tip down, but do you have a recommendation on…

Kevin Dougherty: Like, is there a… is there a…

Kevin Dougherty: to the viewers out there, too, is there, like, is there a book that you recommend? Like, King James Version? Do you, do you rec…

Jackson Lahmeyer: I recommend any Bible, because they're 99.9% identical. Depends on language. Obviously, if you read King James, I mean, you know, you're dealing with an Old English, that's fine for some people. The NIV is translated

Jackson Lahmeyer: at an 8th grade reading level, so the NIV is the easiest Bible to read. Doesn't mean it's the most accurate and most detailed, but it's the easiest. It's an 8th grade reading level, so I would encourage the NIV, I'd also encourage, you know, if people struggle to read.

Jackson Lahmeyer: You don't just have to read the Bible, you can listen to the Bible.

Jackson Lahmeyer: There's so many Bible apps, that you can listen to it, so some people, they just don't like to read, and that's okay, you know? I like to read, but not everybody does. And if you struggle to read, don't try to force-feed yourself the Bible by reading it. Listen to it, you'll get a whole lot more out of it.

Kevin Dougherty: I was gonna say, because they sent me, they usually send me a print when we do… when I do a book review and stuff, so a lot of times I get a print, and it's like, hey, can you send this to me in an Audible? Things like that, and a lot of times it's like, well, here's a, you know, here's a PDF, here's a Word document, so… Yeah.

Kevin Dougherty: thanks to AI, you know, convert it to a Word document, have it read it out loud to me, which makes it a little more difficult than, like, a designed app, but that's usually how I get most of them, is all.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Audible learning. There's nothing wrong with listening to the Bible, because here's the thing people gotta realize. Most believers, for all of history, did not have a personal copy of their Bible. They didn't read it. They listened to it. It was read to them, and the Bible actually says faith

Jackson Lahmeyer: comes by hearing the Word of God. So when you hear God's Word, your faith begins to grow. Simply by hearing it, faith begins to grow.

Kevin Dougherty: Okay, that,

Kevin Dougherty: Is there… is there an order? Or can you… is it like Star Wars? Can you start at episode 4, and then go back to the… and then go by chronological order? Is there…

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yeah, you can. I mean, listen, you can open up the Bible and just begin to read, and you'll be fine, but I always encourage people, begin in the New Testament, whether that's Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, one of the Gospels, whichever, you know, they're saying the same thing, just different perspectives.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And then, when you've read one of the Gospels, go and read the book of Genesis, which is a great book of stories.

Jackson Lahmeyer: of, what God intended.

Jackson Lahmeyer: what unfortunately happened, and then God's plan to redeem us. So, that would be my encouragement. Read a gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. Mark is the shortest, Matthew is the longest.

Jackson Lahmeyer: John is typically the one that most people begin with, and then go read the book of Genesis, which has got so many stories, that will really speak to you. Stories speak to us.

Jackson Lahmeyer: We learn so much from stories. We're… we're storytellers by nature, and we really learn from stories, and that's what Genesis does. So that would be my encouragement.

Kevin Dougherty: Right, and that's… that's why… that's why the Bible and other… other works of art have made it through the test of time, because we are story-based creatures. Oh yeah, oh yeah. I was… I was explaining that to an employee of mine the other day, when, you know, we were actually having a conversation about

Kevin Dougherty: me interviewing you. And I said, well, she was like, well, do you believe in all that? She's like, because I went to Catholic school, and I don't… I learned that.

Jackson Lahmeyer: all religion is, is just a way to control the masses, and I'm like…

Kevin Dougherty: But to a degree, the masses do need to be controlled. I mean, you know, not from a nefarious standpoint, but, like, if you… if you don't control people, and then they just go out and rape and pillage, like, that's not a good, you know, a good path for them. You'd want to kind of curtail it a little bit, you know?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Can I throw something in there?

Kevin Dougherty: Fire away.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Everyone benefits.

Jackson Lahmeyer: if everyone behaved like what Christians are supposed to behave, It is to everyone's benefit.

Jackson Lahmeyer: If everyone in society behaves the way Christians should behave.

Jackson Lahmeyer: You wouldn't be robbed, you wouldn't be raped, you wouldn't be screwed over, you know, you would… so if…

Jackson Lahmeyer: It… even to the person who doesn't believe.

Jackson Lahmeyer: I've met so many people who do not believe, but they say, I am so thankful that people around me are Christians, because

Jackson Lahmeyer: it enhances their life. And so, yes, to control the masses sounds nefarious, right? And it, you know, can be done for evil purposes. You know, I'd say someone like Hitler controlled the masses, right? But that was for an evil purpose.

Kevin Dougherty: But…

Jackson Lahmeyer: Christianity.

Jackson Lahmeyer: is to help control the masses to behave in a way that benefits everybody, that it's a benefit to society. Now, that doesn't mean we all live it out the way we ought to. That's why I prefaced it with, if Christians behaved like Christians are supposed to behave. Now, we don't always do that, you know, that's…

Kevin Dougherty: I mean, sometimes.

Jackson Lahmeyer: People hide.

Kevin Dougherty: behind it.

Jackson Lahmeyer: That's where you'll have to have me back on, talk about this book, Divided, how there's two of us in all of us, this is the new one right here, about how I can be a saint and a sinner, an angel and a beast at the exact same time. And how do you overcome that?

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, right, no, I… That's,

Kevin Dougherty: I'm… I'm depressed I'm only a quarter of the way through it, so…

Jackson Lahmeyer: I'm impressed that you actually read a quarter of it, you know?

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah.

Jackson Lahmeyer: I could say, someone, I wrote this book, and then there's one person I know for sure read a quarter of the book, so we'll call it.

Kevin Dougherty: For the quarter of it.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, and because Microsoft Word doesn't really have a way to, like, pause it and come back, I have to, like, physically look at it to memorize what page I'm on. I've listened to that first quarter, like, 4 times already, so… trying to get back…

Jackson Lahmeyer: it down. You don't need to interview me, you can just give your summary of it.

Kevin Dougherty: Yeah, well, and I usually do give a summary of a book after I, you know, before or after I do the one-on-one with somebody, so it's good, and I always like to have guests back on the show so we can discuss things, because I read, Crime and Punishment based on a referral from Andrew Clavin, and,

Kevin Dougherty: And I was like, man, I was like, this is just… it's just long, and it's drawn out, and it's kind of… it's kind of dumb. And I, you know, and then all of a sudden, it was like a year went on, and I was like…

Kevin Dougherty: you know, that person just… that person I actually knew went to jail, and I'm like, well, they really remind me of Raskolnikov, and you know, you start, like… you start… and I'm like, how do I remember these stupid Russian names? And you're just like, you just… because it takes a while for your body to kind of digest it.

Kevin Dougherty: It's the mental digestion system, and it's… and there's a lot more in certain things that you don't pick up immediately. You don't just pick up on it right away. Sometimes it has to ferment, and then all of a sudden you've got this great, like.

Kevin Dougherty: Intellectual wine, if you will.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yes.

Kevin Dougherty: So…

Jackson Lahmeyer: Let me… let me give you a recommendation. I would not… I'm not recommending this book for your audience, because this is a specialty book, but from conversing with you.

Jackson Lahmeyer: and kind of seeing the way you think, past experience. A book you ought to read, this is just, you know, keep it on the back burner, is… it's called Christianity.

Jackson Lahmeyer: for Modern Pagans by Dr. Peter Kraft of Boston College. He's a Catholic professor of philosophy.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And, it's actually the Chasing After the Wind, I recommend it at the very back of it. And I… it's like fine wine, okay? So it's the, ponces of a man named Pascal.

Jackson Lahmeyer: who lived in the, 17th century. He was a French philosopher, mathematician, and things like that. And Dr. Crafe takes the ponces, which are short sayings.

Jackson Lahmeyer: of Pascal, and then elaborates on them in our modern context, and the book is like fine wine, meaning you sip on it.

Jackson Lahmeyer: you'll be good. You drink way too much of it, you'll have a headache the next morning. You get what I'm saying? That's the type of book that it is. But I think you would greatly enjoy it because of the way that you think.

Jackson Lahmeyer: and some of your past experiences. So that's just a book recommendation one day. When you're bored, after you've read the entire Bible, all 66 books in the Bible, after you've read both of my books, then, you know, then go get Dr. Crape's book, Christianity for Modern Pagans.

Kevin Dougherty: Because what I end up doing is I end up… I always want to just, in my head, I always want to keep up on my normal, like, daily podcasts, whether it's, you know, the Daily Wire in the morning, I'm brushing my teeth, I'm listening to, you know…

Kevin Dougherty: you know, to the Morning Wire, and then, like, I kind of… I'll make my way through my podcast. Like, today is… it's a Monday, so, like, I still have my 5-minute video that I'll listen to from Prager University,

Kevin Dougherty: And, you know, it's one of those, I'll make my way through them, and I'm like, in my head, I have this own little checklist of making sure that I'm up on all my content, and so I can add that to the list if I'm like, hey, you know what, I'm gonna add an hour a day, or a passage a day of listening to the Bible. And then, you know…

Kevin Dougherty: a passage a day from, Peter Crist, you know what I mean? Like, and then this way, I don't get a massive headache, like you were saying.

Jackson Lahmeyer: It's fine wine.

Kevin Dougherty: Right, and and actually, what… I want to go back to what you were saying a minute ago about,

Kevin Dougherty: if everyone acted like Christians should act, the society would be better. Because actually, it comes to mind, something that I remember hearing not too long ago,

Kevin Dougherty: somebody referenced Dennis Prager when he said, if you're… if you're walking down a dark street at night, and you see this big group of just, you know, tall, muscular men coming at you in a group.

Kevin Dougherty: would it make you… what would you feel if you knew they just left a Bible study?

Kevin Dougherty: It's, because, like, your first instinct is, oh no, I'm by myself, or I'm with my wife, you know, can I defend ourselves? And then you see them holding a, you know, a group of Bibles, you know, and it's like…

Jackson Lahmeyer: And listen, everyone knows that. Whether you don't like Christians, whether you don't believe in God, you, in that moment, know, alright, I'm gonna be okay.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Right. Because these people are not going to try to harm me, because that goes against their creed, their value system. And so, yeah, that's why I say it's to everyone's benefit.

Jackson Lahmeyer: that society is full of more Christians in our Western world. It's to the benefit of people, because there is such a… there's a moral code.

Jackson Lahmeyer: There is a… an accountability. I am accountable to God, and so if I actually believe that I am accountable to God and how I treat people, I'm gonna do my best to treat people right, because I'm accountable to God for that.

Kevin Dougherty: Right, and do unto others as you'd want to be treated, isn't that the golden rule?

Jackson Lahmeyer: the golden rule! It's the golden rule. That's why I say, you want… when people say, I don't want America to be Christian, I'm like, no, I don't think you understand. You do want America to be full of Christians, because you're going to benefit even if you're not a Christian, because you're surrounded by other believers.

Kevin Dougherty: I remember we… so, our generation probably was on the precipice of this. I grew up in, in Connecticut, and a lot of my, like, third grade teachers

Kevin Dougherty: I want to say 2nd, 3rd, 1st, you know, like, just coming up in grade school, they used to enforce the Golden Rule. They used to call it the Golden Rule, which you can't… if you tell… if you explain to what a kid a Golden Rule is now in a classroom, you might have your job lost, at least in New York. Yeah. You know.

Kevin Dougherty: So, but so, your books, where can people get them if they're looking for them?

Jackson Lahmeyer: Well, they're available, on Amazon, they're at Barnes & Noble, Books A Million, Target, Walmart, but…

Kevin Dougherty: Okay.

Jackson Lahmeyer: The best place to go is my website, jacksonLawmeyer.com, because there.

Jackson Lahmeyer: I will send you a signed copy, plus the free e-book, and it's the same price, so if you go to Amazon, it's the same price as if you go to my website, but with my website, you get a signed copy, and you get the e-book, so you can have it on your tablet, or whatever the case may be. So, jacksonLawmeyer.com is the best place to go, but like I said, Amazon, Target, Barnes & Noble, all the places.

Kevin Dougherty: Okay, and… and you, and then you're, you're also, you're, we're, you're, so you're out of Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Yes.

Kevin Dougherty: So, if people want to watch you preach.

Kevin Dougherty: Oh, yeah. I know you… did you do an online service, if I…

Jackson Lahmeyer: That's our largest church, is our online church. And so, sheridan.church is YouTube, Rumble, X, Facebook, JacksonLawmeyer.com, you can find the sermons there. They're all online.

Kevin Dougherty: So they can find you and the church on X and Facebook and all these other places. Oh, yeah.

Jackson Lahmeyer: And here's, you know, like, right now, let's say somebody's listening, and they're kind of like you, I'm gonna just pick up my Bible and read. I am going on Sunday mornings to the Gospel of Matthew, verse by verse. So, I'm going Matthew 1-1, and going Matthew 1-2, verse by verse. So, if someone's like, I've never read the Bible.

Jackson Lahmeyer: But I'd like to start reading maybe the Gospel of Matthew, and I'd like to kind of understand what I'm reading. I'm doing a series right now where we've made it to Matthew chapter 6, and I just go verse by verse, and so that may be something people are interested in.

Kevin Dougherty: Gotcha, and if you've already started, we… there's… there should be an archive.

Jackson Lahmeyer: You go back. Oh, yeah, you just go back.

Kevin Dougherty: Awesome, awesome. Well, because we do our podcast, and we distribute it on YouTube, and we also do it on Transistor. And so that allows… that allows this podcast, for example, to get put out there into…

Kevin Dougherty: you know, it goes to Spotify, and Apple Music, and iTunes, and whatever, wherever else people get it, iHeartRadio, Pandora, and it…

Kevin Dougherty: they usually all have a link back to Transistor, where I create a profile for people, so this way, like, hey, it's gonna have, you know, it's gonna have your, you know, your mugshot, my mugshot, it'll show an entire profile, how many other episodes you were in, so if they want to rewatch an episode we've done. Yeah, so we can put your, so if anybody's looking to…

Kevin Dougherty: You know, to reach out or, you know, to follow you, we can have all those different websites right on your profile for you, so…

Jackson Lahmeyer: I love it. I love it. Well, hey man, thanks for having me on, and I really enjoyed it.

Kevin Dougherty: No problem. Yeah, I enjoyed reading the book, and I enjoyed our conversation today. Appreciate all the pro tips. So, I'll, yeah, I'll have to reach back out to Kristen, or I can send you an email, and we can… Yeah, absolutely.

Jackson Lahmeyer: No, I'll just, I'll give you my contact info.

Kevin Dougherty: Okay, sounds good. Well, guys, I will, I hope you guys appreciate today's podcast today with, Jackson Lamar.

Kevin Dougherty: Lawmire.

Jackson Lahmeyer: God.

Kevin Dougherty: yell at me. I got it? The last one? All right.

Jackson Lahmeyer: Got it. Lawmire.

Kevin Dougherty: And…