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I'm Anastasia Koroleva, a 4x exited founder exploring life after selling a business with some of the most remarkable post-exit entrepreneurs in the world. Together, we rediscover purpose, redefine success, master investing, and build fulfilling lives and families.
Having survived a 9-digit exit, I dedicated a decade to researching the deepest challenges faced by entrepreneurs after a business sale. This podcast is the platform to share my and other exited founders' hard-earned wisdom with the world.
To join our community, please subscribe and share your thoughts. I’d love to hear from you 🙏.
This is a recording of a private webinar led by Anastasia Koroleva.
It is about Post-Wealth drive and energy, and a fascinating pattern she’s discovered.
Here it is in her own words:
"Soon after we come into wealth, most of us arrive at two conclusions:
Time is our biggest asset. Energy of the moment is our wisest guide.
We become intensely aware of how fast time runs out. And we commit to never wasting it. We
align time with what truly matters: health, family, meaningful relationships. We tick off bucket-list
items.
At the same time, we become highly sensitive to our energy. If a person or activity energizes us,
we lean in. If it drains us, we move away. This feels like ultimate wisdom. We are optimizing for
time and energy.
For people with wealth, this feels almost undeniable. In fact, it is the dominant worldview in the
post-wealth world.
Yet, here is what I found.
When we zoom out 20–30 years, this approach often does not lead to the life we think it
will.More often than not, it leads to a life that is comfortable but strangely flat.
Low drive. Low energy. Low aliveness.
And when I study the true post-wealth sages, people whose lives we instinctively admire, I see
something different. They also optimize for time and energy. But not the way most of us do.
They do it in a way that lets them be both content and unmistakably pulled toward something
extraordinary.
Peaceful, yet energized. Calm, yet fully alive. All-in, without burning out.
In a way that is stable and repeatable. The kind that, over time, leads to truly remarkable lives.
That is what this call is about. The distinction most of us don’t see.
One that may even feel counterintuitive. One that takes those sages decades of painful trial and
error to learn."
Hello everyone. Today we're going to talk about how we reignite our drive and energy after we
achieve financial freedom and how do we get the most out of our time. When we come into
wealth sooner or later most of us arrive to two conclusions. Number one that time is our biggest
asset. Life is too short and we want to tick items off our bucket list as soon as possible. We also
only want to to spend our precious time on things that truly matter. Health, family, meaningful
relationships. The second idea is that energy in the moment is our wisest guide. Energy guides
us and if a person or activity energizes us, we lean into it. But if it drains us, we move away. We
optimize for time and energy. And this feels like ultimate wisdom. This time and energy
framework is dominant in the postwealth world today. Yet here is what I found. 10, 20 years
later, this kind of thinking, it doesn't lead us to the life we expect. Instead, it leads us to a life
that's comfortable but flat, low drive, low energy, low aliveness, little pull towards anything
extraordinary. I also found that true postwealth sages, people whose lives we instinctively
admire, they do things differently. They too care deeply about time and energy, but they
approach this differently and they end up with a different kind of life. They feel both content and
energized, calm yet fully alive, all in in whatever projects they choose without burning out. They
live a life of compounding fulfillment. To be fair, it takes those sages decades of painful trial trial
and error to master this. We however are going to learn the basics of that attitude today and in
our our future calls we are going to take it to more advanced levels and we'll talk about purpose
and mission. So what actually happens to our drive and energy post wealth? Why is it even a
problem? Let's talk about what I call the postwealth apathy. Most of us come into wealth burnt
out by years of hard work. So our priority very naturally becomes to stop chasing to learn to let
go to enjoy the moment to finally relax. So we optimize our lives for ease comfort and pleasure.
We delegate whatever we don't want to do. And why wouldn't we? Haven't we earned this right
through years of struggle and self-sacrifice? So, we build habits around ease and comfort in
those first few years after we come into wealth. We surround ourselves with others living a
similar lifestyle. And you know what? It's healthy. It's nourishing. It's even necessary and it feels
great. Life is finally good. But here is the problem. Soon something starts to feel off. We don't
really want anything. Not enough to actually do it. Not enough to sacrifice our peace and
comfort. We are not driven and energized the way we used to be, the way we want to be. We
don't feel fully alive. So, we try to reignite our drive and energy. We get fit. We stay busy. We go
on adventures. We spend time with family and people we care about. We are doing all the right
things. Yet our drive is not coming back. Our energy is still lacking. In fact, we become
increasingly reluctant to fully engage with life. And for some, the strongest desire becomes to
actually have desires. We say, "I want to want." This is the postwealth apathy and it's common
and it can last for years even decades. Apathy is not just unpleasant, it's dangerous. Left
unressed it can lead to accelerated brain d aging, Alzheimer's disease and dementia.
Post-wealth apathy prevents us from finding purpose and mission leading to painful regret later
in life. The postwealth apathy can destroy our life and it does not resolve on its own. So how do
we break out? By mastering its biochemistry. Let's talk about the biochemistry of the postwealth
apathy. Apathy is not laziness or lack of character or discipline. It's a biochemical state when our
brain sees no reason to engage. Our brain is wired to conserve energy. So if there is no reason,
there will be no engagement. If there's no reason to engage, it will not release dopamine. And
when we are low on dopamine, we are low drive, low energy, and low aliveness. When we
optimize our life for ease and comfort, we actually signal to our brain not to release dopamine.
And this is not the full story because at the same time, cortisol, the molecule of stress, often
stays elevated for years post. And this happens in response to very common scenarios
postwealth. When we feel fear of losing our hard-earned wealth, when we feel incompetent as
investors, when we have self-doubts and imposter syndrome and lost identity. Chronic high
cortisol further discourages risk and effort. Apathy is a state when we have chronic low
dopamine and very often chronic high cortisol. Apathy leads to less brain stimulation and over
time the brain adapts to this low stimulation state because that's what the human brain does. It
adapts to our circumstances. So disengagement becomes the default. Effort feels heavier and
initiative feels harder. We often feel tired. We get stuck in a self-reinforcing apathy loop where
low engagement leads to low dopamine which leads to low drive and even less engagement.
And apathy persists when our brain forgets that effort leads to reward. And apathy resolves
when our brain relearns that effort leads to reward. But retraining our brain is hard. So when we
crave feeling alive, we seek easy ways to boost dopamine, alcohol and drugs, love affairs and
porn, day trading, social networks, gambling, sugary foods, dopamine spikes and drops. We feel
energized and then we quickly feel drained and then we seek easy fixes again. Soon enough,
we get addicted. Addiction leads to unstable dopamine. And you know what? We don't like the
person we've become. Unfocused, unproductive, undriven. Nobody creates outlier success if
they don't want to be a very different kind of person. So addiction leads to dissatisfaction with
ourselves which leads to high and unstable cortisol and chronic stress. Addiction means
unstable dopamine and unstable high cortisol. And this is the opposite of where we want to be
in a place of healthy drive and energy. And the formula for that state is stable high dopamine
and stable low cortisol. So apathy means chronic low dopamine and chronic high cortisol.
Apathy and addiction mean volatile dopamine and volatile cortisol. Biochemistry teaches us that
if we optimize our life for ease and comfort, we end up in low drive and energy and chronic
lowgrade stress. So what's the solution? The solution is to build a healthy dopamine loop.
Stable high dopamine plus stable low cortisol. But this is not what most of us are doing. And that
time and energy framework, the popular one, is partly to blame. So what's wrong with it? Let's
look at the first idea. Time is our biggest asset. It's true, but when we optimize for time, we often
do it at the expense of drive and energy. We get caught in common traps. Let's talk about two of
them. and I'm going to use stories to illustrate them. So, number one is novelty chasing and
number two is fulltime parenting. Novelty chasing. After a big exit, Alex reads the book Die with
Zero. He decides to dedicate the rest of his life to fun experiences. So he lives on constant
highs, non-stop activity, adrenal, adrenaline, and peak experiences. His dopamine spikes with
each new experience. He feels energized and alive. But soon his brain adapts. It recalibrates
what counts as exciting, what's worth a dopamine release. He now needs even more excitement
for the same payoff. But the fun experiences feel increasingly meaningless. And at the same
time, normal life starts to feel flat and lifeless. Alex is bored and reluctant to engage. Eventually,
his apathy loop starts. Low engagement leads to low dopamine, which leads to low drive and
energy and even less engagement. Alex optimized for time. He squeezed as many adventures
into his life as he could. Now he's stuck in the postwealth apathy. Now full-time parenting. A
successful real estate developer called Dan becomes a full-time parent. The choice feels right. It
feels responsible, even noble. and it benefits him and his family greatly. But a few months in, he
feels under stimulated, lacking progress, low drive and energy. While parenting is not easy, the
challenge is simply too narrow for Dan. He gets bored. His brain is not releasing much
dopamine. His apathy loop starts, but Den rationalizes his lack of drive. He says, "I'll stay home
till the kids go to college." But it only deepens his apathy. Now Dan optimized for time with
family and now he's stuck in postwealth apathy. So that was the idea that time is our biggest
asset. But the second part of that time and energy framework is the idea that energy in the
moment is our wisest guide. And I agree energy awareness is hugely important. Our brain may
be signaling something vital, but we often misinterpret the signal or we assume it benefits us
because we are unaware of powerful influences like emotions and cognitive biases. our own
physical states or other people and their behavior, ideas and desires. We only think that we
follow energy but in reality we just follow our mood. I may feel drained by a person. I may feel
energy negative towards them. But I may simply be experiencing a negative emotion, envy or
maybe social anxiety. the problem is is not them. The problem may just be me yet I walk away
from the person or label them
or say I feel energy negative towards a demanding task but nothing is wrong with the task. In
reality I feel incompetent or maybe potentially judged. I walk away instead of learning and
growing through that opportunity. So when we follow what we call energy, we think we are
trusting some higher wisdom, but it's a fantasy. In reality, we just choose the easy path and
justify it with the energy label. But in the process we give away control of our lives. We give
away our hardearned freedom and we stay stuck in the post-wealth apathy. Time and energy
framework unfortunately often leads to the postwealth apathy. But there is a better approach
and it's how those postwealth sages approach life. It breaks the apathy cycle. It reignites our
drive and energy and it puts us back in charge. And most importantly, it's grounded in science,
not fantasy. I call it the worthy challenge framework.
Brain chemistry tells us that we feel energized when our brain chooses to engage with a task.
When it chooses to engage, we get lots of dopamine and then high drive and energy. On the
contrary, when our brain chooses not to engage, our dopamine state stays low. And sometimes
we can have high cortisol which makes us feel drained and stress stressed. So how does the
brain decide decide? Turns out it runs two questions. Is the task worth it and can I handle it?
Whether it's worth it depends on the risk versus reward analysis which our brain runs. And the
rewards include things like joy, meaning, growth, learning, progress, human connection, wealth,
assets, and even curiosity satisfied. And the risks is anything that we may be losing if we
engage with a task. And those include things like losing the peace of mind or losing our comfort,
status or money, identity, belonging, respect. When our brain concludes that risks of this project
exceed the potential rewards, it decides to conserve energy, not release dopamine, and it orders
us to disengage. Now the second question, can I handle it? In this case, our brain compares the
demands to the resources. It wonders, are the demands manageable with the resources we
have. The resources in this case include ability and skills, social support and reputation, wealth,
health, emotional bandwidth. If it concludes that the demands exceed our resources, it decides
that the task is too hard to engage and it does not release dopamine. Say I get really inspired
about a moonshot project but never take action. Why? because my brain decided that the task
is unmanageable even though I may keep telling myself that it's not. So, I'm not driven enough
to act. Or I've tried to make my spouse happy for years, but I'm making no progress. My brain
decided that the task is impossible. I'm no longer driven to even try.
However, if the brain concludes that the demands are less than the available resources, it
decides the task is perfectly manageable and it gives us lots of dopamine. We feel driven and
energized by that task. So to summarize, if the rewards exceed the risks and the resources
exceed the demands of the task, this is when our brain decides to engage and gives us drive
and energy. If if the task is both worth it and manageable, we enter the worthy challenge state.
We have high dopamine, lots of drive and energy. But we only stay energized for as long as the
task continues to feel both worth it and manageable. It's a state we need to manage. The worthy
challenge state is the optimal biochemistry for taking action. The water challenge state means
stable high dopamine plus stable low cortisol. Exactly what we need for a healthy sustainable
drive and energy. But here is the most important part. The brain only cares about our
perception, not the objective reality. So if we change the perception we can change our drive
and energy. It means we are in charge. The worthy challenge state is a skill we all can master.
But how do we create the worthy challenge state? We do it in three steps. One, we upgrade our
attitude. Two, we adjust our perception of the challenge level. And three, we take action. Step
one, we upgrade our attitude. The post 12 brain is biased against effort, but we can flip it. We
can choose drive, energy, and self-realization over some ease and comfort. And the more we
make this choice, the faster the brain relearns. Effort leads to reward. We need to stop
optimizing for ease, comfort, and mood and start optimizing for the worthy challenge state
because this is how we break the apathy cycle. This is how we reclaim control of over our lives,
reignite our drive and energy and finally live our dreams because we are all here to feel alive
and to realize our unique potential. We're here to build an extraordinary life on our own terms.
This is the worthy challenge attitude. So let's summarize. The time and energy attitude leads to
low drive, stress, instability, and no control. The worthy challenge attitude, however, leads to
high drive, peace, stability, and control. Now, step two in building that healthy dopamine loop,
we need to adjust the challenge level. For a task to really energize us, it needs to be neither too
easy nor too hard. It must demand our best, not less but not more. If a task is worthy but feels
too easy or too hard, we can adjust our perception of its difficulty or of our abilities and
resources. So for example, if a task feels too easy, we can do one or of two things or both. We
increase our perception of the task's difficulty or we reduce our perception of our own abilities
and resources. So we increase the perception of of the difficulty of the task by becoming more
ambitious about the outcome. for example, about the scale or quality or impact of the outcome
of that task. But to reduce the perception of our own ability, we may need to ask, am I being too
optimistic or overconfident? A common problem among entrepreneurs. Now the easy task feels
more challenging, less boring, more interesting. So we get much more dopamine from our brain.
Say parenting doesn't feel challenging enough. So we can make it more ambitious. We ask,
"How do I maximize my kids' chances for a deeply fulfilling lives? What do I need to learn and
master? What do I need to model?"
Now, the opposite situation, a task at hand feels too hard. So we can reduce the perception of
its difficulty or increase the perception of our ability and resources. We can reduce the task
difficulty by learning more about it or by breaking the task into steps. Or we can increase our
perception of resources by leveraging wealth, people and tech or by confronting our own
scarcity fears.
And here is the most interesting part. We can increase the perception of our own ability and we
do it by intentionally increasing confidence in our proven capabilities. This is one skill that we
work on a lot during my in-person events because it makes all the difference whether we have a
complete clarity about our own proven capabilities. And here is what I found. Post wealth our
confidence is often weakened by self-doubts. And those self-doubts come from the fact that for
years we focused on failures because we had to we had to learn from them. We had to address
them. There was urgency and pain attached to those failures. As good leaders, we also credited
others or luck for all the success. As a result, we ignored personal wins. and postwealth. We are
not actually sure what those proven capabilities are or we are not aware of many of them and
we only know a few.
We can rebuild that conf confidence by asking how have I consistently worn in the past and
what's the proof because higher confidence in earned capability makes a task feel easier.
I want to make something very clear. Our goal is not to choose the hardest task. It is to
challenge ourselves to do our best. Because the more we act at our best, the faster we grow.
The more rewarded and satisfied we feel, the faster we relearn that effort leads to reward. The
more driven and energized we become. Let's look at a very common scenario. Sam, a
successful exited founder thinks, "I built a great business and I would do another one, but I feel
energy negative towards the idea. The personal cost was way too high and life is too short and
too good to risk it." If he applies the time and energy framework, his answer is very clear. a big
no to the new venture. Now, let's see what happens if he applies the worthy challenge
framework. Question number one, is that new venture worth it? And you know what? If Sam has
done his work, he's very likely to say, "Hell yes." Because it will allow me to fully self-realize,
maximize my impact, feel fulfilled, and model that attitude to my kids. Sam will then have to ask
himself, "Do I have what it takes?" And Sam may very well say yes because this challenge is
aligned with my proven unique capabilities. So I'm not worried about competition or losing my
drive. I know how to get the right people and resources and I know how to support my health
and energy levels. So yes, I can handle this without much stress and burnout. The time and
energy framework is discouraging so it leads to apathy. The worthy challenge framework
however is encouraging and it leads to healthy sustainable energy.
So we've taken two steps to build our dopamine loop. We've upgraded our attitude and we've
managed the challenge level of a task at hand. Now, step number three, take action. If adjusting
our attitude and difficulty are not enough, we still must kickstart our drive. We act even if we
don't feel like it because the stakes are too high. The postwealth apathy can destroy our life. So
by acting we force ourselves out of that apathy cycle and into the worthy challenge loop be
because from the brain chemistry standpoint when we take decisive action we get high
dopamine. we are getting high drive and that leads to more action. We start a project trusting
we'll get energized by by it and you know what we will. But to stay driven we still need to be sure
our brain sees the task as worthy and challenging enough.
The worthy challenge framework is powerful. It lets us take control of our drive and energy, our
health and our freedom. We can build an extraordinary life on our own terms.
Now, let me quickly summarize. So the postwealth brain is biased towards ease and comfort
leading to the postwealth apathy a dangerous unhealthy unfulfilling state. To break out we must
build a healthy dopamine loop. We do it in three steps. We adopt the worthy challenge attitude.
We adjust our perception of the challenge level of a task at hand. and we act despite our mood.
This loop leads to sustainable drive and energy and eventually to the feeling of self realization. It
builds a life of compounding fulfillment.
All right, guys. Anyone has any questions? I have a question. Anastasia. Hi, Jeff. Good to see
you. Hey, great to see you. Thank Thank you for this. This is wonderful. I was wondering if you
could discuss the merits of finding one big new challenge versus several small things that
challenge us or we enjoy. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I've been thinking about it a lot and obviously
different things work differently for different people at different stages. But if we think about a a
stage when we have already recovered when you know we don't feel burnt out again and I think
Jeff for you personally that probably applies by now I am a huge believer in choosing one thing
over many things and I will do another call on on how to find a mission and we'll talk about how
different people um choose a mission in a way that really energizes them and creates a lot of
And basically what I found is that when we have one mission, we can channel all of that energy
and we really feel pulled and we create much bigger impact. And when we create much bigger
impact and it also the activity itself feels deeply rewarding like we spend a lot of time in the flow
state which is a deeply rewarding state. What happens is that our brain starts to connect that
activity regularly with reward, making it easier and easier. Because if you look at some of these
people who are doing incredibly hard things, but they're not burnt out, this is exactly the secret.
Over time, they train their reward system to energize them and make it feel easier and easier.
And also obviously competence grows. If we focus on one thing, we become more and more
competent. Competence means not only ease but it also means confidence. Confidence means
we take on even more interesting, even more complex challenges. And finally, when we choose
one thing over many, we also create a competitive edge. And that's very important because if
we become so competent over time in this particular thing, we have less stress about
competition. And if we have less less stress, once again, our life is easier and the whole activity
is much more rewarding because what we we want we don't want another startup that burns us
out, right? We wants to we want to really intelligently and wisely set ourselves up for a mission
which doesn't burn us out but feels rewarding every single day. There will still be problems but
they will be they will seem smaller and smaller in comparison to the reward we are getting from
our work. Hi Anastasia. How are you? You're looking well in my hi. Hi good to see you. Good to
see you. I had a question. Um I am on a board of advisers to a family um who is managing their
wealth and u they they don't pay they've I I'm supposed to take a nominal salary. I don't even
take that but I get a lot of joy and satisfaction out of helping them run their money. However,
when we've tried to add people to the board who are like at our stage who had an exit and who
are managing their money say you know there's no reward no monetary reward in this. So quite
a lot of people in our pool of people they have immense amount of talent, immense amount of
knowledge and I've always felt that as long as you're ready to share your knowledge for free,
there will always be takers. But a lot of us refuse to share that knowledge for free uh or the for
for a for a reward that's not big enough. How do you change that attitude? Because you don't
need the money but still you don't want to share. So I sometimes don't get it. Are you talking
about changing attitude of other people or ourselves? Yeah, sometimes change I I I want to I
mean I think I've changed my attitude. So we change our attitude is easier to change but once
we s it's only if we successfully change ours can we hope to convince someone to change
theirs. Of course I think that people need to experience this even if they don't want to. It's this
step three we talked about. Sometimes we need to do something anyway because we we feel
maybe there is a chance that it will make us feel energized and then it does and then we start
building this reward system this loop that it feels energized. So summit if you want to uh for
these pe people to feel the way you feel maybe you can find a way to encourage them to try
teaching and see how they feel about it. Yeah, maybe just invite them for one session. That's a
great idea. Thank you. Uh, Anastasia, I also have a question. In one of your earlier podcasts,
um, you actually talked about the founders starting their second or third business uh, quickly
after the exit event and that uh, that was not the right idea. Uh I know that you drew some
distinction uh by saying that they should maybe take a year or two to think first, but is that
generally a good idea? Has your perception of um that type of activity as the next challenge
shifted or is there some nuance to it? All right. So first of all, I found that there is a small
category of people for whom like never taking a break between businesses is a good idea. And
these are very young founders without families. Like if you sold a business at 27 and you're
single and you are ready to go for the next one, there is literally no reason not to do it. And
because you're still learning um and you you're probably not ready for the kind of deep analysis
that uh some people need to do later in life before they are ready for the next business. and also
maybe you're not burnt out enough. But except for that, so far what I've seen is that everyone
else really benefits from a break. But what's important is that it's a break and not retirement.
Because if we're talking about retirement, then suddenly we are exactly in this apathy situation.
So if you look at the statistics of how many people actually start new businesses after they sell
or when they start new businesses, it looks quite shocking because for the first two years after
we have a successful exit, the likelihood, the probability of a person starting a new business
stays very stable. After two years it starts going down and after three the probability basically
collapses and I think the reason for that is we adapt to that comfort and it becomes so hard for
us to break out and for me more often than not I now come across people who are in that
situation rather than in the situation when they uh rushed to create a new business too early. But
to answer your question, yes, I still think taking a break is extremely important, especially if you
know what you're doing because you can uh come to this state of contentment and peace and
uh nourished body and soul and then and then you're just naturally ready to do something else
that's amazing and your own. Thank you.
Anastasia, what's the biggest mistake that you see most of us make? The number one that
we're going to stumble over and and don't be shy or nice. Drill into it. Well, um I I think it
depends on the stage. As I just mentioned, the number one mistake at first can be not taking
care of ourselves and actually letting other people influence us too much to into doing
something that that's not really healing for us and or not um what we need at the moment. So
this initial state of u recovering is extremely important. when people skip it, um they pay a high
price later on because if you're not in a good nourished state, you're much likely to uh make a
bad decision. But if we are talking 3 years on, the biggest mistake is avoiding effort and avoiding
challenge and choosing comfort. It's very hard to get out of it. But I would also say that a huge
mistake is choosing wrong people to surround ourselves with because all of us underestimate
just how extremely important it is to have the right people around us. This is how humans
naturally learn. This is how we make our decisions. This is hugely important. So I would say
resting and and being extremely discerning um and strategic about whom we spend time uh
with are the ways to avoid those most common mistakes. If I may ask go one more honestly
Jeff. Yeah. For for those you've seen who have exited this apathy state, would you say it's more
common for those people to find it bit by bit, trial and error, start and stop or more of a all at
once and you realize this is the thing and you go all in? You know, it's a fantastic question
because I've seen both. Uh I've seen people just quietly, you know, step by step, uh climbing out
of this state, but I also saw people who just realize that it's too miserable to not be fully engaged
and then they take a big step and they start something that's really challenging for for this
second group of people. Uh they usually do go through a bit of stressful period before they get
out. But once we understand much better how to uh avoid burnout, it's still not nearly as bad as
as the first time around. I I think if we if we move to to another business or whatever big
challenge uh later on but we have a much better understanding of what exactly actually caused
the burnout what exactly created this state when we are so discouraged to to do anything else
once we really learn it then it's much easier to avoid it in the future but also I mentioned about
you know the the idea that Our proven capabilities are so important for us to understand
because second time around we actually have the luxury of knowing those capabilities and
choosing a business or activity around those. And once we do that things are less stressful and
much easier because most of us first time around had no choice. We were just learning. We
were just experimenting building those capabilities. It's much much harder. A mistake I see is
that some sometimes people get get bored and they say, "Oh, second time around they're going
to do something completely different, something out of character." They justify it with stories like
I actually want to get out of the comfort zone. I want to do something different. But then it's just
much harder. And with wealth, what happens is a year a year or two in when things get very
difficult, it's so easy to decide why bother. Um I have another question Anastasia. Uh we have
been talking about starting another challenge um equating it with another business. You started
something uh maybe more impactful to people's lives and you know that's what I did as well in a
different area. Have you actually um been able to collect any statistics or information as to uh
whether people generally find that type of approach more purposeful uh or starting another
company works just as well. Uh Olio what I what I definitely have found is that uh if we're talking
about exited founders if they choose to do something other than a business later on often times
they start doing it or treating it or seeing it as a business like for example venture philanthropy or
any sort of philanthropic activities even if uh exited founders don't plan to do it this way they
often start running them as businesses which is great because they realize that this is where
their unique capability is. But I don't think that one is better or worse than the other. If we feel
we're ready for impact and we feel that the best way we can do it in a way that will continuously
drive us and maximize our positive impact in the world is a business great if it's something else
perfect. If it's writing a book, excellent. I think it's more about whether we'll keep be interested in
it for long enough to make a difference. Thank you. And even even though I mentioned full-time
parenting, some people are meant to do exactly that. And if it's uh if that's your thing and you
can you can uh realize yourself through parenting, that's also great. Just for most people, it's
not. Yeah. Well, I'm I'm actually a full-time parent, Anastasia. Excellent. Yeah. And it's it's
actually funny. I could really I in my own way, I could certainly identify with kind of part of what
you're saying. And then I think the cor thankfully I see where the guy says I'm going to do it until
they go to college. Like I don't think that's that's a long time for me. I'm still got babies at home.
So, you know, they go to school full-time. So, I've got plenty of time to figure out what I can also
focus on as well. So um I guess in in the breadth of things that you've seen folks focus on some
maybe a brand new startup it could be uh joining a board someone has mentioned a new
commitment like that could you just share maybe some non-conventional other paths just to
give people an idea maybe like for me you know I'm enjoying this stage but it won't be quite so
crazy for a long time and I you know you've got my brain thinking in a different way already
which is terrific but I'm curious maybe some other types of things that you've seen beyond
simply like starting a business or just it looks like you work with a lot of folks. So I didn't know
maybe some non-traditional things you've seen people dive into that have made a big difference
in their lives. So Matt Matt to me it depends on what you find really challenging. That's that's the
key. So for example, a very intentional parenting can be as challenging as running a business.
But parenting where we just decide, okay, I will align my time with my family because this is the
right thing to do and then we just sit on the couch playing on social networks is not challenging.
So we have no um juice to to keep it going and we end up in this apathy state. But whatever
other adventure also by the way I talked about adventures but there are people who are very
good at having adventures that are challenging and a challenging meaningful adventure is very
different from uh just going somewhere sitting in a five-star hotel and thinking they're having
adventures right so so there there are lots of shades of gray in all of these things um and as
long as we find it challenging it's it's it's good enough I mean there are people who go into
politics for example I see more and more of that and they find um their mission and purpose in
uh in that place and it's not a business it's not uh anything else it's uh their desire to be useful
for their country or the world again people write books people create all sorts of ways to express
themselves especially these days with AI we suddenly have you know uh sky's is the limit what
we can to to make our mark as long as it's challenging and we'll want to keep doing it. So, I
really like this like brain hacking change perception approach, right? Um I think my question
goes down to um when reviewing a challenge, I think I come to start to distrust my judgment.
When would I know if it's really a low energy situation where I work on changing the perception
versus really not a good fit and not a good idea? Um, and I think I would worry about which one
it is at the time. Do you have any pointers on like how to look at that? Well, that that's why I tried
to create this this framework um and reverse engineers this the stories where things this things
work really well. So the first question is always is it worth it? Right? So, so this is a very
interesting question to and we need to spend some time on it like is it something that will lead
you to to the life you want to to have to the impact you want to have to who you want to be. So
this is by far the most important question because once you figured that out you can actually
change your perception of whether you can do it or not. So, so people who who take on those
impossible tasks and actually see them through constantly work, this is what I found. they
constantly work on making sure they believe they're capable of doing it or they they bring
amazing people around. But but the the thinking the reasons for these decisions always come
from the fact how can I make sure my brain believes that I can do it? not just kind of positive
thinking when we sit and and uh imagine things but often times by having actual proof that it
may work. So yes uh thanks for that uh it's amazing. So uh I think you know a lot of us here are
asking ourselves okay we understand logically the dopamine part and the the chemical part of it
but uh you said something that I noticing here like post wealth sages. Mhm. Can you give us
you know what that means to you and some names that comes to mind so I can visualize and
and help us feed this become into that part of the equation. Yeah. Yeah. So um for me it's less
interesting what people do um for me it's less interesting to see what people do immediately
after they get financial freedom because everyone kind of experiments and look looks for for
their own way. I like to look at a decade postwealth and if we look at a decade post wealth um
the stages look pretty much like this. First half of the decade is when we tend to prioritize either
getting rest and finding contentment and enoughness in life or we keep going and we're very
very active. whichever path we take. It's interesting that life is usually when
this is when we look back and we think hm not that much actually happened in my life either I
was too busy on things that are not meaningful or I kind of rested and haven't made much
progress. So what I see is that five is a big real people change course adjust course or or start
taking this much more seriously and think and plan their lives much better. However, I also think
that if people understand the whole uh pattern of the first uh decade, there is no need to spend
much time searching. We should absolutely as as I keep saying address our needs first and
have that state of satisfaction, nourishment and contentment. But once we are there and that
can be done if we know what we're doing in a year or two once we're there it's very important
um and those sorts of challenges. Cool. Yeah. So Anastasia really appreciate what you shared.
It definitely resonates with me. I think I've been waiting like four years to hear someone share all
that. So, thank you for putting that together. I think what I'm curious about, I know you said
you're going to have a separate call on kind of purpose and mission, but was wondering if you
could maybe share a few best practices you've seen. And to be specific, if you've seen
someone kind of come to a decision point between an easier and a harder mission, I love what
you said about the brain's ability to shift perception. And it seems like you can shift perception in
either direction, right? You can make something that's the easier path seem harder and you can
make something that's the harder path seem easier. I'm wondering if you've seen one of those
lead to more fulfillment. And just to be specific, I'm now going on year three plus of sobatical. So
I'm in that danger zone and I've kind of have this path where I could go back to the industry I
was in and create another company, but I kind of feel a bit bored and like ah it's really what I
want to do versus a much more audacious bigger vision in a totally different industry that's more
disruptive but also seems at times impossible. So, I kind of personally loop between those.
Yeah. And don't really do anything. But just curious if you've kind of seen any best practices for
thinking through that um to to basically choose between uh relying on what you already know
but but you're bored with uh versus an audacious mission that is more exciting. So, so Ben, I
would I would uh this is the what this framework really is for to make decisions like this because
you probably want to run both scenarios and compare them, but compare them from the
standpoint of because you mentioned fulfillment of what where actually you can create the most
impact because what happens is that we were talking about stages postwealth that postalth for
most of us who actually continue to engage in life meaningfully we start caring more and more
about what it is we are actually creating for the world. So if you're thinking long term you want to
be sure that you will be giving your very best in in one of these missions and for that we need to
understand what your what your true calling is. Actually we can figure that out and we you need
to understand what it is that you are really really uniquely capable of doing. So it's very hard to
choose either of these unless you have a one kind of formula and for me for for the formula is
exactly that. What is it you're uniquely capable of doing? And then once you've identified that
and you're willing to accept the responsibility for that particular task, then you build that loop
around it because we have so much power over how we think of difficult or hard. I don't think we
need to maximize difficulty. Not at all. Quite not the opposite. I think the secret is to find a way to
create maximum impact without burnout. This is the secret without killing ourselves, without
making it so hard that we'll give up because we just have to be realistic. When we have money,
giving up is very easy. Got it. So you're saying like what you found leads to best kind of mission
or purpose is that which maximizes impact plus maximizes someone's like essence or unique
genius. That's like the best. Yeah. Because if we understand what it is we are uniquely capable
of doing not theoretically but really based on the proof we have like we have confidence. This is
my thing. this is what I'm actually excellent at. That we then we can build around that because
one of the common mistakes is just getting excited about uh an idea and running with it without
uh understanding that it may not be for us. And we don't have enough time to actually uh talk
about the whole logic and framework for that. But that's the basic idea that it needs to be really
truly ours. Not because we feel like it, but because we actually know what we're capable of and
we know what we naturally lean towards in terms of our interest. And this is the most important
exercise I think for us to do when we have the the luxury of time um after financial freedom. So
in your particular case between these two things I immediately am concerned that the novelty of
the new idea may be energizing you because novelty does that to us and uh we may not
necessarily want to just make our decisions based on that. That's that's why just feeling energy
without understanding and interpreting energy is so difficult because novelty will always win
against something that's familiar.
Yeah, makes sense. Thank you. Uh Tim, yeah, thanks Anastasia. This is uh been incredibly
insightful. I um maybe even building on Benjamin's last question or comments um and and then
maybe common themes throughout your presentation around making impact but maybe that
hesitation for burnout um and but at the same time time right and the value of time that it doesn't
it's not that the value of time goes away. I'm curious from your experiences of speaking to many
people in in situations like ours where you know we've had successful exits and so forth this this
kind of question of do I go back and build a venturebacked business and maybe this very
tactical or tangible but do I go back and go venture raise and and set myself up for a billion
dollar business or do I build something that's more self-funded I don't want to use the word
lifestyle because I think it comes around the wrong wrong way but something that you're able to
build with with your intentionality and within your own time frame and with your own
thoughtfulness versus being on someone else's time frame if you want to call it that. Um, and
there's always a trade-off of of I guess maybe potential impact that you think about in that
scenario. But I curious to hear your thoughts or experiences around that. So the concern is that
you may be on someone else's time frame because you're not ma you will not be making
decisions in one of these paths. Somebody else will be making decisions, right? You might be
working at a speed or on a time frame that is necessarily not one that is conducive to still the
value of time that we do all have. Yeah. Right. And our energy and these other values that we
want to put time and energy into. Yeah. Um versus being able to build something maybe maybe
on your own terms. Um but but obvious but still make impact, right? Um well I'm always uh a fan
of uh freedom and choosing where we can actually make all the choices. I would be quite
concerned if someone else is dictating their time uh schedule uh on on what I want to do again
especially when we have financial freedom because there will be constant temptation to walk
away from some from any situations where somebody else is threatening our autonomy or
agency. So Tim the biggest problem really in building anything a business or philanthropy or
whatever with wealth is that we will give up. So making sure that we have sustainable
motivation before we start is the most important thing. So whenever you are considering um to
you know choosing between two different things the real question is where I'm more likely to
have sustainable drive and if you're if you're concerned that you're giving away your agency and
your autonomy to someone else this is a big red flag because you may not have a sustainable
drive if you don't have full control of your life and your timing.
Great. Thank you. All right, guys. Anybody has any other questions? Otherwise, we are almost
uh we are almost done. We have five minutes left. Anastasia, I just have a quick comment. Um I
think a lot of what you're talking about is is kind of an intersection between Eeky Guy and Jim
Collins Good to Great. Um if you kind of look at eeky guy it is kind of for a postexit founder eeky
guy seems alone it seems a little soft right you can go into coaching or writing and good to great
seems a little too cold meaning you have to fully optimize you have to make a ton of money um
and as a post-exited founder I tend to kind of look at the overlap between the two um and it
really helps kind of figure out what your personal strategy is um and where your relevance is so
you can still do good um be a positive impact. But again, talking about what you said, figure out
what it is that you are the best at in the world at doing and it doesn't necessarily have to be
something that makes a ton of money, but going back to Jim Collins, it should make some
money. Um, and and I was just uh it was a it was a kind of a revelation or epiphany when I saw
that good to great and eeky guy have such a common denominator. Um, so maybe that's
something that you we can look further into. Yeah, I I think it's very important for us to be doing
something where we have a chance to get feedback from the world that it's helping. Money is
just the most common currency for for that kind of feedback. But it doesn't have to be
but it's common. But if we don't get any feedback from the world that what we are doing is useful
then a maybe it's not useful um and b maybe we need to to correct the course so it actually
becomes useful because this is this like we don't want to look at the outcome as the reward. We
want to to make sure the activity itself is really rewarding. But the activity itself um gets much
more rewarding if we feel we're getting better and better at serving others, at serving the world.
So any kind of currency that comes back, any kind of feedback that comes back, it feeds into
this dopamine loop which basically trains us to associate our work, our effort with with a reward.
And if we at the stage when we care about impact more than money, for example, then we need
to make sure that it comes back in in in that form. And but you know some some people are still
driven by the desire to get more wealth and that's also fine and I respect it a lot. Sometimes we
actually need more financial security and otherwise we may want to do it because we plan to
use that money for leverage for something that's very important. uh we see it a lot when people
work really really hard to earn money and then they go and they do something else uh
separately where they cannot possibly earn money but they use money as leverage. So I think
that this relationship with with uh between impact fulfillment and uh wealth is more complex than
u ikiguai suggests for example. I'm curious what you really think about ikiguai.
All right. It may take more than the remaining uh three minutes but um I I'll talk only about one
angle because you're provoking me because you know I'm not a big fan of of the of the
framework. But the the reason I'm not a big fan is because I see so many people post exit taking
it too literally and they think they need to um fill each of the boxes. And we're talking about the
ikiguai diagram, not about the Japanese word ikiguai, which means something else entirely. But
they think that they need to click u to tick every box in the ikiguai diagram to be to have purpose
or to have fulfillment. But what happens is that if you do that, you only optimize really for a
chance of maybe enjoying what you're doing if you're lucky, right? and maybe earning money for
it but it actually is not enough especially post wealth for us to drive us fully and also if
somebody's trying to make a decision shall I do another business or not and they use eeky guy
the answer will be yes do another business but it may not be right in this particular moment in
time because the eeky guy um diagram does not take into account that it's a process right that
we we may not necessarily want to jump back into business early on, but most importantly, I just
don't think it's the formula for fulfillment
because there is no there is no um mention of our intent and I think fulfillment is tied very closely
to why we're doing things. I see someone with a raised hand. It's me, Anastasia. Daryl, how you
doing? Hi. Hi, Daryl. Yeah. Okay. Um, I'm just trying to summarize in my head. Um, so I can
have like a to-do list moving forward. Um, that's just how my brain works. So, like is it am I
getting it right? Like find some like really think about what got you here, what you're capable,
like what are you really good at and and that's going to help guide you toward the next um
toward round two. Is is that am I summarizing it okay in my head? So so so what I found is that
if we really know um and we know because it has been proven again and again and again that
we tend to choose a certain activity and we over time build unique capability around that activity
then two things happen. First of all it's precious. This is our personal edge. This is how we win in
life. It has to be fully recognized, appreciated and grown. And the second thing that if we ignore
it then we will be feeling like we are not growing in some area where we have already grown a
lot. And actually what happens is that once we've grown in some area that growth will demand
growth. We'll feel uncomfortable that we are not making progress somewhere where we already
have become very good. And if we ignore it long enough that atrophies of course but we need to
be very conscious about that risk. Is this a capability we actually are going to lose to atrophy? Is
it what we want or do we want to keep supporting it? So this understanding like when we are at
this stage when we have already achieved a lot and the world has given us confirmation that we
are very valuable and that we created disproportionate impact. When we are at this stage, the
biggest personal edge we have in the world is actually going back and seeing in reality what that
proven capability is. Number one. And the second one is what do we naturally choose to do
when we have a choice? Because this is this is our calling, right? This is what we we were sent
to this planet to do. So if we can choose an activity going forward at the intersection of that
unique capability and that calling that we have then drive will will come. And if we have the
drive, the calling and that personal edge that that just makes us so good, that combination, that
formula together uh increases the probability of of the next thing or the success of the next thing
tremendously. And when I say success, I'm not just talking about the financial success, but the
success of it as the source of our fulfillment, as the kind of activity which will give us meaning,
fulfillment and purpose in life. And going thank you. Yeah, going back to Ola's comment about
whether we should take a break between businesses or not. If we can actually think through
this, if we can have clarity on what we are meant to do, what we are uniquely great at, what we
can master even even better. Uh this is how we position ourselves for that amazing mission
without the burnout. The real luxury of experience. Thank you.
Guys, thank you so much. I apologize again for for the technical difficulties. Um, and I will let
you know when when uh the recording is ready, especially for those who only could join later.
And Anastasia, yeah, people want to know when is the next one.
Pablo, thank you for pushing me. I am thinking maybe next week we should uh talk about
purpose because people seem to be really interested in that topic. I really wanted to talk about
this postwealth apathy first because this is how we get stuck and we don't go anywhere. But
once we get unstuck then the next question of course is like okay I'm I know how to get unstuck
but where do I channel all that drive and energy? What do I actually choose to do that will give
me the sense of purpose in life? So that's next week.