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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:01 - 00:00:39:08
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore. Welcome to Story Behind the Stone. Today we're joined by Alan Hahn, founder of Escape and Evasion Research and Tours. Alan is a retired aircraft maintenance engineer with 25 years of Royal Air Force service, followed by 18 years with Airbus. Join us as Alan takes us deep into the mountains of Europe. He spent years researching, retracing and walking a significant number of escape routes taken by Allied soldiers, sailors, airmen and even special operations Executive agents who risked everything to return home during the Second World War.
00:00:39:08 - 00:00:49:19
Speaker 1
After recording this episode, I was so inspired that I approached today's guest, Alan Hahn, about creating a map of my great grandfather's, Charles Dwight Smith's military service in the First World War.
00:00:49:19 - 00:00:55:08
Speaker 1
A family member had gone to great pains to transcribe the war diaries that he started in 1914 to digital.
00:00:55:08 - 00:01:02:07
Speaker 1
when the First World War broke out, he joined in the first major motions of the Mesopotamia Campaign, landing in Basra, Iraq.
00:01:02:09 - 00:01:16:07
Speaker 1
He wrote about the first major battles, the carnage that he saw officers crying quietly at the losses, leaving their men behind. After fighting further into Iraq, he, along with his garrison, were encircled. They survived five months under siege for resupply,
00:01:16:07 - 00:01:21:21
Speaker 1
before ultimately surrendering and becoming a prisoner of war and surviving a death march across Iraq.
00:01:21:21 - 00:01:24:10
Speaker 1
my conversation with Alan sparked something,
00:01:24:10 - 00:01:37:15
Speaker 1
and it's thanks to this conversation that I was inspired to open the diaries back up to start pieces of the puzzle back together for myself. Over 112 years after my great grandfather started writing, thankfully he survived war time and he made it home.
00:01:37:17 - 00:01:49:07
Speaker 1
I'm here today because he survived diary, survived, and I've never felt more connected to Charles than I do now. And as it happens, I learned that my great grandfather and I have a connection that I couldn't have predicted,
00:01:49:07 - 00:01:56:12
Speaker 1
In one passage, Charles writes about artillery shells landing in Basra cemetery as he digs graves for his comrades.
00:01:56:12 - 00:01:56:23
Speaker 1
And now,
00:01:56:23 - 00:02:03:11
Speaker 1
have the honor of working with the Commission to help tell the stories of these individuals paraded in that exact same cemetery.
00:02:03:11 - 00:02:11:03
Speaker 1
I truly hope that you enjoyed today's episode. I hope that you find your own spark to dust off those photo albums and embark on your own journey.
00:02:11:08 - 00:02:14:02
Speaker 1
When you're ready, you won't regret it.
00:02:20:03 - 00:02:46:21
Speaker 1
Hello and welcome to Story Band Stone, a show where we talk service, sacrifice and story connecting to the people, doing the most interesting things veterans, causes and commemorations. Today's guest onion with escape invasion research and tours and mountain trekking guide. You have such a fascinating area of expertise and practice in helping people connect with individuals that are doing these escape invasion routes in and around Europe.
00:02:46:22 - 00:02:50:09
Speaker 1
I'm so excited to chat with you today. Alan, welcome to the show.
00:02:50:10 - 00:02:53:15
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for inviting me, Matthew. It's a real pleasure to be here.
00:02:53:15 - 00:03:02:15
Speaker 1
Alan, if you could just share with us what is it that you're doing with the escape and invasion routes? What does a day in the life look like? It's such an interesting topic.
00:03:02:15 - 00:03:41:19
Speaker 2
About 13 years ago, I had a walk in the Pyrenees mountains and I heard a story about escape. Invasion. And it just absolutely enthralled me. I took a slightly deeper look, and this new world just opened up in front of me. Of hundreds and hundreds of men crossing the Pyrenees throughout World War two. The toughness of some of the journeys, but also the resilience that they had in order to complete them, and then also the incredible helpers in France, that these people were prepared to sacrifice everything in order to help servicemen return to the UK and continue fighting.
00:03:41:19 - 00:03:47:22
Speaker 2
So they were at an enormous risk. Yeah, just inspired by these incredible people.
00:03:47:23 - 00:03:56:09
Speaker 1
If you could kind of paint a scene for us, the geography that you're working with. You've mentioned the Pyrenees. Tell us a little bit where these routes are taking place.
00:03:56:11 - 00:04:20:15
Speaker 2
They're throughout the Pyrenees. So if we start at the Mediterranean, Pyrenees, it's relatively low ground. The beginning of World War two, an awful lot of soldiers from the Dunkirk and Saint Valery periods crossed the Pyrenees there, first having gone to Marseilles, being corralled by a number of officers to try and organize, getting them across and then actually doing the journeys.
00:04:20:15 - 00:04:48:23
Speaker 2
And that itself evolved into a very famous escape line, the Pater Laoghaire escape line. Then if we move inland further, we hit the Irish region of France, which, large part of that it borders with Andorra. And hundreds of escapees and evaders went cross there, and that's more high mountains. Then we be further inland and we come to the high Pyrenees.
00:04:48:23 - 00:05:13:11
Speaker 2
So quite a few 3000 meter peaks and obviously some very high calls to cross. So quite a tough area to get across the Pyrenees, to say the least. And then the terrain begins to get slightly lower as we move towards the Atlantic region. So there's a significant chunk of the Pyrenees are referred to as the Atlantic Pyrenees, albeit they're inland and there's some tough journeys there.
00:05:13:13 - 00:05:32:05
Speaker 2
And then we have the Atlantic region, which is where the combat line used to operate, and that's lower ground, but it's Atlantic type weather there. So lots of rain, a very fertile region, but still very tough. Still had a lot of snow in winter and those sorts of things to make the journeys quite tough.
00:05:32:07 - 00:05:38:03
Speaker 1
Can you tell us a little bit about the individuals that are undertaking this? What are the circumstances, what's going on?
00:05:38:03 - 00:06:01:18
Speaker 2
It comes back to this, this period at the beginning of the war where we had the Dunkirk and the Saint Valery B.f, the British Expeditionary Force collapsing under German attack. A lot of those soldiers were taken prisoner and they were being slowly route marched to Germany, firstly through France. And a lot of them took the opportunity to escape.
00:06:01:18 - 00:06:24:13
Speaker 2
A lot of those escapees were looked after locally. The local French, the local Belgium's took care of them. And then it slowly dawned upon them, especially with the signing of the treaty between the Germans and Vichy France, or the free zone, that there was an area of France that may be accessible and may allow for them to to travel home.
00:06:24:13 - 00:07:04:00
Speaker 2
So they they made their journey principally to Marseilles. And as we mentioned earlier, then across the Pyrenees, they also exfiltrated on boats. Firstly to Marseilles and then latterly down towards Spain. They were also exfiltrated by Special Operations Executive boats, and also there was an incredible doctor Rudder Kamakshi, which is quite a mouthful, but he was a Greek doctor that was associated with the the Pat O'Leary line and he was essentially signing off people as being medically unfit for further military service, and they'd get repatriated.
00:07:04:02 - 00:07:40:13
Speaker 2
And he was doing that in quite a surreptitious way because many of them could carry on fighting. So he was doing an awful lot to help. Then we really progressed from there. You have the Battle of Britain, and what follows that is, is once that battle is essentially won, it's taking the fight to the Germans. And so you would have fighter and bomber sweeps over into France so that the bombers would be a few light bombers going across, and they'd have a heavy escort of fighters and the fighters were there to draw the Germans into battle.
00:07:40:16 - 00:08:07:11
Speaker 2
So quite a few pilots and aircrew for that matter, then ended up evading pretty much in similar circumstances, northern France, down to Marseilles, then across the Pyrenees. Then we have the bombing campaign as again taking the fight to Germany. So the earlier type bombers, you know, the Wellington and the Hampden, not perhaps anywhere near as advanced as the Lancasters, Halifax and B-17s.
00:08:07:14 - 00:08:43:14
Speaker 2
A lot of those crews were shot down and again they would evade. Then we come to the period where limited. November 1942 Germany invades the free zone of Vichy France, depending on how you look at it. And that starts to become actually a turning point in World War Two. Then we have the Americans joining the bombing campaign. So the Eighth Air Force comes to the UK, and there are an awful lot more airplanes getting shot down and an awful lot more crews that can escape evade that needs to be taken care of.
00:08:43:14 - 00:09:12:05
Speaker 2
So there's a quite an expansion of escape lines. We also have, within that period the commander raids on the coast of France. So there's things like Operation Frankton, which is more commonly known as the Cockerell heroes to them evade through the Pyrenees as well. And we have Operation Jubilee similar to, overtones. And there's a few evaders from that and then also Operation Chariots.
00:09:12:07 - 00:09:34:20
Speaker 2
And again, there's quite a few evaders there that progresses. And we then come to D-Day. They're still escape lines operating at that period, but it tends to drop off from about there because it's very, very clear that Germany has lost the war. And then they they're giving up their territory in France. And so the escape lines lessen. There's still plenty of escape and evasion.
00:09:34:20 - 00:10:01:00
Speaker 2
There were worries that once the invasion at the D-Day had occurred, that you still needed to take care of aircrew. So they were had they were hidden in Fred de Val Forest, down in, or up towards northern France and then you have still aircraft being shot down and crews escaping, evading. And they tend to stay in safe places and actually help the resistance out in attacking the Germans.
00:10:01:02 - 00:10:10:23
Speaker 2
And that's where it kind of really tailed off. And that, of course, there are other areas of Europe where there's still plenty of escape and evasion going on.
00:10:10:23 - 00:10:15:17
Speaker 1
What are you doing with your company to apply a new lens to this history?
00:10:15:17 - 00:10:41:00
Speaker 2
Yeah, this a huge part is the research that that's where the majority of the time is spent. But it it then becomes, how do we remember these events, what these people went through, the way that's divided up is into battlefield tours in a very traditional sense. So a little bit different because it's in the mountains near certain areas that are very accessible.
00:10:41:05 - 00:11:08:18
Speaker 2
So you can participate in these battlefield tours. Minimal walking allows for people who don't have the, the, the access to the full mountain ranges. So there's that side of things. Then we have the the walking tours. Those are anything from one day long to about ten days, which is an incredible route through Andorra. And then the self-guided walking packages, which are really coming to life now.
00:11:08:23 - 00:11:34:16
Speaker 2
And those allow for experienced walkers within the mountains in order to take a package and organize the own journey in the sense of guidance from the package. And there's also producing maps for families. So it's a small service in the sense of generating a map with a route that tells a story about where a particular family member walked through the Pyrenees.
00:11:34:16 - 00:11:48:03
Speaker 1
Are there any individual family stories that you could share without sharing names? Of course. For privacy reasons, but I'm really curious to see kind of how you can help provide some of these families closure, but also that experience as well.
00:11:48:04 - 00:12:18:20
Speaker 2
Well, there's three small stories that can be linked together quite nicely. One of them was very, very special to me, because it concerns a chap called Sergeant Harry Kamlesh. I discovered that Harry was still alive and 2023 living in New Zealand. I managed to make contact with his family. It was for the purpose of Harry to look at an escape, an evasion map that I had generated.
00:12:18:22 - 00:12:45:09
Speaker 2
And really to, to seek his approval and show him respect in that manner. I had a really lovely exchange with his daughter and then, sadly, Harry had an accident which put him in a difficult position. So it wasn't so easy to communicate. But I kept looking and researching the story, and I visited where he went across the Pyrenees, and it kind of really completely blew me away.
00:12:45:09 - 00:13:08:16
Speaker 2
Walked into a French village one Sunday morning, spotted a group of locals. I politely as I could try to join their conversation. They pointed me to a chap who was walking by who was strangely dressed in greens and had a handlebar mustache, and he told me to wait for ten minutes and he'd be back to collect me, and he took me to his house with.
00:13:08:16 - 00:13:30:09
Speaker 2
And you could tell what his wife was saying is like, where the hell have you been? And it was, I've picked up a mad Englishman who wants to talk to me. The kind of response was really? And, she came downstairs and caught a whip. He's telling the truth. But this gentleman and I sat down and I asked him the question, where did people leave the village from?
00:13:30:09 - 00:13:51:22
Speaker 2
Because, yes, you're in a valley. There's lots of footpaths. Where could Harry have walked? Pointed out straight away. The two main routes out the village, which was just incredible. Said my goodbyes to Francois, had a quick walk and then I dashed off to the next stage of the journey and I got to a point which is very accessible.
00:13:51:22 - 00:14:23:10
Speaker 2
You porky, come a couple of hundred meters up a small incline, and you can literally see the vast majority of Harry's route. So you you look north and you can see where he would have walked down. And then you actually look eastward and you can see where he crossed into Spain. The amazing, amazing thing about the story is that, they got to a certain point, a group of a very large group of 21 evaders with quite a few French resistance.
00:14:23:14 - 00:14:49:02
Speaker 2
One of the evaders fell when crossing a river and literally cracked his skull. So there's a bit of a commotion, and there was a German patrol nearby. There wasn't a direct engagement. The evaders carried on and got a certain point for arrest, and that's where they were compromised by the Germans. So there was a, kind of bomb burst of all these evaders trying to to get away.
00:14:49:04 - 00:15:24:11
Speaker 2
And Harry, with at least three Americans shot off. So there was a technical sergeant, Archie Barlow, there was a Lieutenant Lynn Klinger who'd already tried to evade across Pyrenees, and then a Lieutenant James Lyles. So these three guys shot off and essentially in a very, very difficult journey, they got close to the border with Spain. They then detected a German patrol, which was essentially warming up and waiting for these evaders to cross their path.
00:15:24:14 - 00:15:52:15
Speaker 2
They managed to avoid them, only to be spotted as they were going up the mountainside towards Spain. So the Germans opened fire. And you can, you can begin to imagine what the feeling was like for that. And but nevertheless, they managed to make it over the mountainside. They again, they bomb burst. But one of the Americans was so exhausted that he fainted, but fortunately fainted in a position where the Germans didn't see him.
00:15:52:20 - 00:16:24:20
Speaker 2
In a nutshell, these three guys got in to Spain, and they were joined by about three others that had gone slightly different route. So amazing story, but it's that classic. You can see from one point the vast majority the route and get an appreciation of the the difficulty. What's fascinating about that and how it links to the the other group is there were three resistance stroke passengers smugglers to get them across the border.
00:16:24:20 - 00:16:48:01
Speaker 2
And there was a chap called Joseph Burrup. He was known as Frisco, but he was, if you like, really a French American that had come over to do his bit. Then there was a Jean Louise Berserk who was known as Charbonnier. He was the lead and quite a character by all accounts. And then, 70 and again he was with that group.
00:16:48:07 - 00:17:16:06
Speaker 2
They were looking after Harry to a point and the and the other guys, and they had a lot to do with, if you like, or potentially a lot to do with the next story. So the one that lynxes after Harry, one of the great escapees, Bram van der stock, escaped across the Pyrenees. So 76, escaped from Stalag three, 73 were recaptured, 50 were murdered and it and three got away.
00:17:16:06 - 00:17:45:07
Speaker 2
So two were Norwegian and they went north, and crossed safely to Sweden. But Bram van der stock went via the Pyrenees. Of course, he was Dutch, and he got picked up by the Dutch Paris line. He was supposed to be escorted by these three passers resistance. But unfortunately they, were heading towards a village, and their car one day rounded a corner to see a German, what they thought was a German ambush.
00:17:45:07 - 00:18:19:16
Speaker 2
So they opened fire and very sadly, all three were killed and their bodies treated quite awfully. They found replacements for to take Bram van der stock across within the group. He was then there were two Canadians, so there was a flight Sergeant Shaughnessy and, Flying Officer Thomas. But there were two Americans. So there was, Lieutenant Macpherson, who was a P-47 pilot, and then a Lieutenant Stone Steinberger, who I believe was, I think, a pilot of a B-17.
00:18:19:19 - 00:18:46:21
Speaker 2
So I need to double check. I've got that exactly right. But I think we we get the kind of message. So they were accompanied by at least two Jewish families, which, again, is another huge part of this. They made it across the Pyrenees in June, and they were then followed by another incredible person who was, Anne Marie Walters, who was a special operations executive agent, and she was exfiltrating.
00:18:46:21 - 00:19:12:09
Speaker 2
And with her there was a New Zealander who'd been fighting alongside the resistance, and then also a South African soldier who is called Johnny Johnson. And that's it. That's all we know about him. And they also had two Americans with them. So very similar route to Bram van der stock with that, that one, you can access certain areas to see where they walked without going over the high mountains, if you like.
00:19:12:09 - 00:19:34:16
Speaker 2
The high mountain route is a very tough three day up. Having walked that route and appreciated the terrain that were going through. You can reach the border with Spain. Walking up to the border in Spain, I kind of came over the mountain pass and then right before me was the valley Darren looking into Spain and it was absolutely stunning.
00:19:34:21 - 00:20:11:02
Speaker 2
Brown van de stocks. He makes reference to that viewpoint of saying how beautiful it is, and that feeling of having taken a step closer to real freedom going into Spain didn't mean complete freedom. You just became a step closer to it and a slightly better feeling. So you could be arrested. If so, you would be put in Miranda el Ebro, a concentration camp where you could be held for a number of weeks until the right kind of exchange had taken place between the British and the Spanish in order to get people out of it.
00:20:11:02 - 00:20:32:01
Speaker 2
So it's a complication if you managed to not be arrested. The objective really was to either get to somewhere like Barcelona, Madrid or up towards the, the Atlantic coast and reach a British consulate in order to be exfiltrated with the right kind of paperwork.
00:20:32:01 - 00:20:50:12
Speaker 1
The compounding risks, the changing risks depending on where you are, where you're walking, who you're walking with. Talk to me a little bit about what's going through the minds of an evader of an escaper. And this could be and could be different depending on whether you're talking about someone that it's fine. You know, the Eighth Air Force and gets shot down later in the war versus earlier.
00:20:50:12 - 00:21:11:18
Speaker 2
You're either an escape, a rule, or an evader, and the advice given was being escaped because you through the Geneva Convention would be treated better. So there was an obligation to look after you, whereas if you were an invader and said so, the obligation wasn't quite so much. So the best thing to do was say I'm an escape.
00:21:12:00 - 00:21:41:11
Speaker 2
Often the first thing that would happen, especially in northern Europe, a lot of French families, farmers, ordinary French citizens would often observe you parachuting down. And if the Germans turned up, the advice would stay hidden. When the Germans disappeared, then the French would come back and collect them, and they would be looked after by those families. Of course, there were some French families who were extremely fearful and would have nothing to do with it.
00:21:41:11 - 00:22:11:14
Speaker 2
But there's some incredible stories of the helpers. Absolutely amazing the risks that they took. So once you were hidden, what would then happen is the French family would obviously know who they might be able to contact to really start the ball rolling. So might be an ordinary French family. They'd know someone, make a contact, and then that's how an invader would join an escape line.
00:22:11:14 - 00:22:40:18
Speaker 2
So in a sense, a lot of it was pure luck because it's it's who first found you and what they did about it. You then join a formal escape line so there could be something like especially in northern Europe, there was the Comet line, the patter Leary line, and numerous others. So you would join that, you would get your falsified paperwork, and then you'd be escorted on your gym journey to wherever they would be accumulated.
00:22:40:18 - 00:23:07:23
Speaker 2
So often more, say for the Pat Leary line and then for the Marie Claire line. That was roof rack, which was the opposite side of France. And then the comet Line would pick you up often in Belgium, sometimes in France, and then they would take you down the northern French coast towards San Sebastian in Spain. It was this knowledge of who the contacts were and how you could join an escape line.
00:23:07:23 - 00:23:35:23
Speaker 2
There were also a number of independent innovators, especially the the beginning of the war when there were no direct contacts. People would just be helped by ordinary citizens across France, and they'd make their bid to cross the Pyrenees, often on their own or with a bit of advice. The very first, 100 bomber group. So our Masters of the air, the very first one was, Lieutenant Dunbar.
00:23:36:00 - 00:23:56:10
Speaker 2
He did his own invasion as independent. He pretty much followed down from Bordeaux along the coast line, slightly inland, and made it into space. And he comments in his book that he lost an awful lot of weight doing it. So, yeah, quite incredible.
00:23:56:10 - 00:24:06:09
Speaker 1
What are the conditions that they're working with? I mean, I can just imagine you're parachuting and you just lost your your airplane, maybe most of your crew. What do you have.
00:24:06:09 - 00:24:30:15
Speaker 2
With you with the aircrew would have escaped an invasion lectures within the UK. And they would have small escape innovation kits. They would have a miniature compass, they'd have Horlicks tablets, they'd have, wires. All the general things that you would take, in it, an escape innovation kit. Just a small tin of goodies to help you out.
00:24:30:15 - 00:24:52:08
Speaker 2
Cause you had to ditch your uniform as soon as possible. Landing. Some did keep their boots. And, of course, if you've got anything like that, any you could easily be spotted. Then you also have the difficulty of just crossing the road. So typically for the English, it's you look left and right and they're left again as opposed to right, left and then right again.
00:24:52:08 - 00:25:00:10
Speaker 2
So yeah, extremely difficult conditions. And of course if you're if you're aircrafts just come down then you will have Germans searching for you.
00:25:00:12 - 00:25:06:20
Speaker 1
How are you gathering your research. You mentioned earlier some of those individuals were able to keep, I think, diaries.
00:25:06:20 - 00:25:32:09
Speaker 2
The vast majority of the research, comes from this the escape and evasion reports. So in terms of, statistics, I think on the American side, there's about 3000 escape reports. And if we break those down, around about 900 of those are regarding crossing the Pyrenees. And if we break that down a bit further, only about 10% of them really give sufficient information.
00:25:32:09 - 00:26:01:15
Speaker 2
If I then come to the the British ones, there's about 3200, which includes, an awful lot of Europe. So we break that down a bit a lot. The Pyrenees ones are very useful, but it's about 14%, that are really useful. So if we understand, what's livable from those reports and what's traceable, then we actually start to see patterns evolving in certain areas of the Pyrenees.
00:26:01:21 - 00:26:32:08
Speaker 2
And I've been able to build on those in order to hypothesize some of the routes, but with strong evidence. So that's really coming to fruition now. So there's a number of patterns have really been established which are very, very helpful to talk about the evaders, we normally wouldn't say and really quite pleased with that work because it takes it a step further and I'll keep pushing on those until I run out.
00:26:32:10 - 00:26:55:20
Speaker 2
I add some of the books that were written. The books very, very rarely give a route. An awful lot of evaders simply didn't know where they were. So Egypt pieced together little bits of information to come up with a route for the most difficult. There's an interesting story of a Canadian who was on the deep right. So is Captain Brown.
00:26:55:21 - 00:27:21:02
Speaker 2
He escaped from a train. He made his way down to Marseilles, and when he was in Marseilles, he wrote up his report on the deep right that was then taken to Switzerland and found its way back to the UK pretty much before he did so. He then went to the Pyrenees. So from Marseilles made his way down to the Andorran Pyrenees, if you like the area region of France, and crossed there.
00:27:21:02 - 00:27:50:06
Speaker 2
So his is, a fascinating story because he he appears to have done it largely on his own, pretty much gets to the Andorran border in a bad snowstorm. He takes a wrong turning, starts heading back into France. It so happens that a dam is being built in the valley. He walks down. There are some workmen. He tries to hide from the the workmen in some some rubbish.
00:27:50:08 - 00:28:14:20
Speaker 2
Fears for his life in the night thinks he may start freezing to death. So he then approaches them. They treat him very well. They take him to a doctor and the doctor looks after him, feeds him and gives him red wine. Not, perhaps something we do these days, but he recovers and then in the morning there are some smugglers in that area and they take him into Andorra.
00:28:15:01 - 00:28:17:07
Speaker 2
Quite fascinating in that respect.
00:28:17:12 - 00:28:29:16
Speaker 1
I can only imagine putting myself in the boots of these service members, the fear they must have to overcome to leave that relative safety of of cover and approach someone and ask for help. It must take incredible courage.
00:28:29:18 - 00:29:00:06
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And it's, you know, there's there's those sometimes that we're in such desperate situations that they just had to do it and they got the help they needed. It's impossible to overemphasize the support that many escapist innovators had. You just think, you know, for a French family, for that matter, a Dutch family, any family that's helping an invader, if the Germans find out, you know, you're you're deported and you may never, ever see your home again and indeed your family, your join.
00:29:00:06 - 00:29:22:06
Speaker 2
You said that the risks were tremendous, impossible to understand that if you're an escaped riveter, there was a very good chance you would just find yourself in another POW camp. Which of course, we know as the war went on got more and more difficult. But at least you know you would live where as a family. That's it. You'd be lucky to see your home again.
00:29:22:06 - 00:29:29:22
Speaker 1
Let's talk about Masters of the air. What are they getting right about? The invader Escaper and P.O.W. experience that you see depicted on the screen.
00:29:29:23 - 00:29:56:13
Speaker 2
Overall, I think it's it's good. You know, a purely personal view is okay. It's it's television, which is fine if we're paying our respects to the people concerned. That's a good thing when it comes to the escape and evasion and the death marches from the P.O.W. camps, you know, it's it's good. It's really good to see that, because we do begin to appreciate what they were going through.
00:29:56:13 - 00:30:15:17
Speaker 2
So, you know, I remember I think, I think Lieutenant Dunbar was featured in most masters in the air for him to be the first invader and do it on his own is a remarkable achievement. And then, of course, we see the guys in a prisoner of war camp, and we begin to understand. Understand what the death march is like.
00:30:15:17 - 00:30:43:07
Speaker 2
If we then apply that to the mountain side, it comes back to the the brand Vander stock experience of as you cresting a mountain pass, you get that feeling of freedom you that bit closer to making it. And then of course what you're arrested or if you make it to a consulate, you're going to eventually get out. But yeah, Masters of the air, you have to take your own interpretation.
00:30:43:07 - 00:30:49:07
Speaker 2
But overall, yeah, anything that allows us to appreciate what they went through is a good thing. What are.
00:30:49:07 - 00:30:54:12
Speaker 1
You seeing and what are you feeling when you can help a family realize that moment for.
00:30:54:12 - 00:31:16:04
Speaker 2
Themselves? If I can relate a story of a soldier, the 51st Highland Division, I'd made contact with a lady who was researching her father. She had his whole journey, with the exception of the Pyrenees crossing, a pull together a number of reports. And of course, he was in a group of about four guys that that went across.
00:31:16:04 - 00:31:40:10
Speaker 2
But I was able to piece the route together and mapped it for a and when I was communicating with, she was in tears because it was the last piece of the puzzle that she needed. And that feeling of being able to help her was just fantastic, you know? Really, heartwarming to know that I'd done some good for somebody.
00:31:40:10 - 00:31:53:06
Speaker 2
Very hard to describe. She was very emotional. I kind of completed the circle, because I went to the area and took some photographs for and and shared them with her. So. Yeah, really nice feeling.
00:31:53:06 - 00:31:57:17
Speaker 1
Let's talk about 2026. What's the process look like working with you?
00:31:57:17 - 00:32:21:16
Speaker 2
The walking season? I'll start with this. The walking season. The Pyrenees really is is March to and the September. It's when the snow's clear enough to be safe. Whether it's good enough to walk and the mountain refuges open. There's a huge number that are manned. And you can get you your bed and breakfast. You can also have a bit of lunch and you can have a fantastic evening meal, a full course meal.
00:32:21:16 - 00:32:45:20
Speaker 2
So you're very well looked after and hosted. So that's the first thing to say, the walking season. Then it comes down to really what people would like to do. So if if you're not really into high mountain walking, there's the battlefield tour side. So you're driven to your number of calls and the the stories are told about the particular invaders.
00:32:45:20 - 00:33:14:19
Speaker 2
Then we come to the the tough walks, which is story in themselves. Anything from one day fairly straightforward walk to, about a 710 day walk, which is an outrageous 250 kilometer route, 1.5 times the height gain of Everest. So pretty severe walking packages. If if you're capable. So what I'm trying to do is cater for people who are perhaps less mobile in the mountain sense.
00:33:14:19 - 00:33:42:12
Speaker 2
Those that are very mobile and try and create the right kind of accessibility. So the way I like to do it is to have a discussion. So, website should be up and running in about 2 to 3 weeks. Time is going to, onto the website and book a call. The reason for booking a call really is to discuss the client's needs, understanding of what it is they really want.
00:33:42:12 - 00:34:08:03
Speaker 2
So let's mobile to the very mobile. And then also the type of escape innovation history they'd really like to look at. I have, dare I say it, about 100 routes across the Pyrenees. And if we're talking from easy to very difficult, that needs to be scaled for somebody for safety reasons. So I don't want to give a package to someone or take them on a walk that they can't complete.
00:34:08:03 - 00:34:21:11
Speaker 2
You know this, this is about completion and looking after the client. So it's book a call, have the discussion narrowed down on the needs, and then make a decision from there on what exactly they'd like to do.
00:34:21:11 - 00:34:24:09
Speaker 1
Are there any routes that you're looking forward to walking in 2026?
00:34:24:09 - 00:34:48:22
Speaker 2
Oh it's endless. It really is endless. I would never say a number of favorites, but there's a number of particular routes that that are absolutely stunning. There's one area in Andorra where there's about 6 or 7 routes converge at one point, and when you converge at that point, you're really looking through the eyes of escapees and evaders, because you can see two calls to mountain passes to choose from.
00:34:48:22 - 00:35:11:16
Speaker 2
One of them is considered straightforward and another is considered very difficult. And if I can relay another story, there's a there's an incredible Canadian pilot called Julian Sail. And he got to that point, is pretty much describing to you what he's seeing. And he says, you know what? I'll take the difficult because of the Germans around here, they'll have trouble following me.
00:35:11:16 - 00:35:30:17
Speaker 2
Sad tale in a sense, because Julian Sayle later lost his life, you know. So to stand in that point, to understand his thinking and his humanity, but also to reflect on that he died and we're doing it to remember him.
00:35:30:17 - 00:35:33:14
Speaker 1
There must not be a dry eye in the house when you come to that point.
00:35:33:14 - 00:35:37:04
Speaker 2
I've shed a tear before. I certainly it takes my breath away.
00:35:37:06 - 00:35:48:02
Speaker 1
Really does. You're bringing people, ancestors, survivors with the local population. Do they recognize that maybe their own ancestors helped these folks that are now traveling through these places?
00:35:48:03 - 00:36:16:15
Speaker 2
The French, really good at memorizing that period. So I'm privileged to have some incredible connections in France and share information with them. And, this countless people, I can relate another example in the sense of was researching a route that the stories are pretty much or full guys, and their stories are very available on the internet. What's not known is actually where they walked, and it was a real puzzle.
00:36:16:15 - 00:36:47:08
Speaker 2
I knew where someone had collapsed and I knew where they started, but the route just made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I went to to recce it and I where a parked the car was very close to the French Mountain Police headquarters in this village. And I just thought, you know what, I'll go and ask them. So I walked in and then came out two hours later with the solution to the problem, which was just incredible.
00:36:47:08 - 00:37:19:18
Speaker 2
You know? So I have a lot to be grateful for. To the French Mountain Police engaging with the populations. Fantastic. All was made welcome. Dare I say, if I relate to the Harry Camus story, the Bram van der stock and, and Marie Walters and Marie Walters was engaged with a Jedburgh team. So they're the guys after D-Day that were disrupting the Germans quite severely in the area of where Anne Marie was operating was, Jedburgh.
00:37:19:20 - 00:37:48:05
Speaker 2
And, I'd again gone into a village and walked into the Marie. And this lady indicated to me to follow her in my car. So we went off and I ended up speaking to her husband, who then demanded I come back. The next morning. He'd got all the guys together in the village, and we all went off on a tour of the resistance in the area where Bugatti had been operating, and they were led by a major fullback who was an American.
00:37:48:05 - 00:38:02:15
Speaker 2
And the respect that the villagers have for Major Fuller is just beyond belief. The respect is incredible that they have for him, you know, so he's he's there today for them is memory exists.
00:38:02:15 - 00:38:08:13
Speaker 1
How can people follow your journey and keep in touch with you if they're considering closing that chapter for themselves?
00:38:08:14 - 00:38:35:19
Speaker 2
LinkedIn is a good place to find me. So just search for Allen Hunt. So Ellen Hunt, HQ Dublin and then the website which should be up and running 2 to 3 weeks time. So with a bit of luck, once the podcast is out, it should be there. So that's my direct comm. And then there's Facebook as well. That allows for a lot discussion of what people might like to do on one of these tours.
00:38:35:19 - 00:38:41:21
Speaker 1
I have so enjoyed chatting with you today. The impact that you're having on families is really, really special. Thank you for what you're doing.
00:38:41:21 - 00:38:45:20
Speaker 2
Thank you very much for inviting me along tonight, Matthew. Been a real pleasure.
00:38:51:21 - 00:39:04:22
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath.
00:39:04:22 - 00:39:06:03
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in.