Defining Hospitality

Today, Dan finally gets to sit down and talk with Malcolm Berg, who is not only a designer, but an entrepreneur who founded Edge of Architecture. He is all about pushing the boundaries and innovating to the next degree. Malcolm provides his insights on hospitality and how important it is to bring empathy and human connection to the forefront of design and architecture. The conversation also delves into the significance of gratitude, the role of mentorship at EOA, and the enduring philosophy of reflecting values and unity in their projects. Listen along to hear Malcolm and Dan’s conversation!

Takeaways: 
  • Cultivate empathy within your team and client relationships. Understanding and responding to people's needs and emotions is crucial for creating meaningful work and strong bonds.
  • Strive beyond good enough. Aim for spectacular and aim to create experiences and designs that evoke strong, positive reactions.
  • Hire people for their enthusiasm, work ethic, and potential rather than just their current skills or experience. Develop a culture of mentorship to nurture growth from within.
  • Work with stakeholders, including clients and team members, who share similar values and vision. Avoid relationships that are purely transactional or financially driven.
  • Emphasize continuous learning and innovation. Do not settle into a routine; constantly push the boundaries to stay ahead in a world that is rapidly changing.
  • Develop a strong, cohesive concept as the foundation for all your design elements. This helps maintain a consistent narrative and creates a more immersive experience.
Quote of the Show:
“It’s how you behave in the trenches that kind of makes you who you are. Things are going to go sideways, shit happens. It’s how you fix it that counts.” - Malcolm Berg

Links:
Shout Outs:
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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Rayanne Pruitt

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Malcolm Berg
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[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan and this is Defining Hospitality.

Dan: Today's guest is a designer who erodes barriers between architecture, landscapes, and interiors. He believes that design is ultimately about the human element and the narrative that is derived from it. With each new project he takes on, he works to uncover the story within it. He's been designer of the year for IIDA and Gold Key.

He's the founder and design director at EOA Incorporated. Ladies and gentlemen, Welcome, Malcolm.

Malcolm: Thanks for having me.

Dan: I want all the listeners to know that I've been dying [00:01:00] for this conversation to happen since Two Novembers ago, I believe we had dinner. I was about just over a year into, um, the podcast journey. And I, I don't know, every time I'm around you and the stories that you have, I'm just always so captivated and awestruck by just your life experience, number one.

And number two, the amazing team and company and vision that you're executing on every single day. So I'm just, I'm glad it finally happened. Good things come to those who wait. So thank you.

Malcolm: So am I, and we crossed paths so many times. I remember the, uh, the restaurants getting, you know, talking by each other and trying to figure out how to get together. It just, just now materialized, but here we are. So, let's do this.

Dan: So obviously defining hospitality, the first question I always ask everyone out of the gate and you are no different, Malcolm, but what does hospitality mean to you?

Malcolm: Where's the foreplay? Nothing? We just, this, right

Dan: [00:02:00] No, we're getting right into it. No foreplay. That is the foreplay. No, that is the foreplay. It's abrupt. And then we get into it.

Malcolm: Oh, I love it. So, you know, I, I don't think, I love it. I don't think there's a one liner. I don't think there's any way to define hospitality in one sentence. It, it really is, is, uh, to me, it's a, to me, it's very much a guttural response. It's, it's how do I, how do I feel about others? Um, I think I've relied on A lot during my career in my, um, I've relied on my empathy.

Uh, empathy is something that helps you understand, helps you listen, helps you branch out, helps you bring people together. Um, and in so doing, you know, uh, being able to listen to the client, being able to listen to the guests, listen to the neighborhood, listen to the city, listen to the maitre d Um, uh, all these individuals have a great stake in getting the project done correctly.

Um, and if I'm, if I'm able to listen to them all. That's when I start defining hospitality. [00:03:00] To me, it's really about creating a sense of place that is more than just heads on beds. It's more than just a meal. It's about gathering people. It's, uh, you know, it's, it's about getting us all together as a tribe.

Ultimately, I really believe we are tribespeople. We're just, you know, kids playing the sandpit. And we kind of grow up a little bit, but we really don't. We're the same people we were when we were very young, and we want to be amongst other people, amongst other like minded people. We want to learn more. We want to encourage other people to learn about us.

We don't go to a bar to drink. We go to a bar to see people with a drink in hand. We don't go to a bar, a restaurant to eat. We go there to see people with great food and great ambience. And that's really how, um, I think of hospitality, anything I can do to make a space that is conducive for people to feel comfortable in, to just settle in, and not feel like they have to leave in a rush.

To me, hospitality is ultimately about the ROI, [00:04:00] but if the ROI is first and foremost, we're missing the entire picture. It's making people feel very, very comfortable, uh, humbling yourself to allow other people to benefit from the space. Not you just benefiting from it, uh, because ultimately they will come back and that'll make you successful.

So that is, that is my take on hospitality.

Dan: I love how you started off that talking specifically about empathy. And if you were to grade yourself on a scale of Zero empathy to 10 empathy, 10 being the highest. Where would you put yourself on that, on that scale?

Malcolm: I see something happening in a distance that is emotional and I might break out in tears. So empathy wise, I'm pretty high up there in the scale. I'd say I'm probably, uh, probably an eight and a half. Yeah. Very high in the scale, but not to the point of being totally debilitated. Um, I'm very high up there.

I feel for the people. I care for the people. [00:05:00] I care tremendously for my, for my team. I care tremendously for my clients. I care for the guests. Um, one of the best, absolute best compliments I ever got. I remember we were doing a lobby lounge and I had gone way out of the limb designing something that was, uh, at the time, and this goes back close to 15 years ago, um, was quite radical.

And I honestly, it kept me up at night. How, how is it that my clients are actually building something that's quite radical, quite transcendental, uh, what's going to happen. Uh, I remember the brand coming up to me and saying, by the way, Malcolm, you know, what brand we are, you know, we can't do this in our brand.

I'm like, give me a chance. And I walked up to the site and the area that I had done it was. The lobby lounge was completely cordoned off with plywood and pipe and drape. And I saw some movement behind the drape. So I tucked in and went around and I saw a family peering in and I came back incognito and I said, so, so what's, what's going on in there?

And the dad. Turns around and sees me peeking in. He says, I don't know, [00:06:00] but it looks absolutely fantastic. And I literally just backed off, didn't say a word and, and went away. To me, that kind of unsolicited response is absolutely everything. Uh, it, it, uh, it is way better than awards. It's way better than, uh, any coverage you could possibly expect.

Uh, but people coming back and truly saying, I remember that place that I stayed in, that you guys created. And it made my day. It made my weekend. It made my vacation with my family. That is, uh, that is spectacular

Dan: As a builder of a great company and an amazing team and working on incredible projects all over the world, we, I'm speaking of you, not me, but of you, you have all these KPIs that you want to have. and that you're kind of, that are help guiding your way on to growth and, and purpose. That idea of the unsolicited response is probably not a KPI you're tracking.

And I've recently been thinking about this a [00:07:00] lot. Like as far as when I, if I talk to someone and years later, they may come up to me and say, Oh, when we had that conversation, you changed my way of thinking about this. And I went on this other way. So again, it's unsolicited. It was, it was just a passing conversation.

And in some way, and I'm kind of like trying to workshop this idea of those, I'm going to put that in the unsolicited response. And it was like kind of unintentional, but I think that that's kind of the most important KPI as we get older and like the impact and the trail that we leave behind us. What are your thoughts on that?

Malcolm: to me, gratitude again. And I say to me, cause everybody has their own way to me. Gratitude is my source of happiness. I trade in gratitude. I trade in gratitude for clients. You know, we do a presentation and, um, the client immediately writes back, happened this morning, client immediately writes back. That was so fulfilling.

That was so rewarding. That was so enlightening. That was more than we had expected. [00:08:00] That's all I need. That, that to me is absolutely fantastic. And we will bend over backwards for clients like these. That's why, you know, you have the starving architects doing all the extra work, uh, burning the midnight oil simply because we trade in, in, in sort of that, the beauty of the engagement, the beauty of the, of the actual trade and happiness, we give you something that That makes you happy.

We give you something, it makes your guests and your partners happy. Um, it, it's, it's, it's a wonderful gift, right? Because not only is it financially rewarding, it's fiscally, you know, satisfying to at least to some degree, but it's emotionally really enriching. We are enriching. each other as, as teammates in this, in this group, uh, learning from each other, just, just building each other, uh, up as a whole, but also getting the same feedback from clients all the way around.

And it's, it's, it's a very, it's a very whole experience to me.

Dan: Uh, for about six or eight years, I've been journaling almost every day. And one of the components [00:09:00] in my practice is gratitude and appreciation. And it was interesting because if I go back to. Before, before journaling, um, I would have spikes of gratitude and appreciation that like if someone were sick or someone passed away or I heard something horrible, I'd be like, Oh my gosh, thank you.

I'm so grateful for my health. but the practice of, I love the idea of trading and gratitude because the practice of writing and tracking that, it almost made it as if there's a, instead of these spikes of gratitude and appreciation, maybe like a, a background noise or hum of gratitude, um, which I think is maybe more present in just life in general. I, I'm curious by your, your trading in gratitude and and like, that's your fuel. Do you track it in any way? Or do you, um, take moments to reflect on it? [00:10:00] Like, do you have a practice around that? I think that that's. Pretty awesome.

Malcolm: You know, I kind of wish I did. And one of my Achilles heels is that I don't rest in my laurels in any way, shape, or form. Um, I don't, I just don't have that. I don't have that in my DNA. I can't, I can't go back and say, Oh, you know, this was fantastic. And kind of ride that wave. So to me, I'm, I, I'm always looking for the next thing I have to deal with the next thing and deal with the, the next thing.

You know, the best project that we're doing is the project we're doing right now because we're putting our all into this one. We're not saying, Hey, we did the last one that should, you know, suffice for a while. Um, so, so being constantly engaged means that you're constantly reinventing the wheel. And every time you reinvent the wheel and come up with something, It's in fact a source of gratitude.

Um, coming up with ideas that are not out of Pinterest or out of magazines or other, you know, there are ideas that, like I said before, are kind of guttural. Walking down the street, [00:11:00] seeing the shadow that a leaf casts on a wall that kind of slips down onto the ground, and it has a different perspective.

Being able to look at that and enjoy that and say, wow, that is beautiful, is such an incredible gift. To designers, you know, the gift of design and the gift of design appreciation. is something that is an amazing source of gratitude. We do what we love. And if you do what we love every day, you don't work a day in your life.

So, so to us, being in this group at EOA with the amazing team that we have and constantly helping each other understand The gratitude that is around us, um, makes for a very sort of enriching life and enriching career. So tracking it is not something we do other than in the moment, uh, especially in the office as, as some, you know, we finished a presentation that was fantastic.

We make sure that the entire office knows that the team worked hard to make that amazing. Um, [00:12:00] so that's, that's our form of constantly reinforcing the gratitude for effort, not so much for accomplishment, but much more for effort. Cause you know, gratitude for effort is much more sustaining.

Dan: Yeah, it's interesting because you know as I'm looking back and thinking about the the journaling practice and that hum of gratitude No, I have stack I have yards of journals that are just like sitting on a shelf that maybe someday when I'm no longer here My kids will be nostalgic and they'll look at it and

Malcolm: Keep a journal. Someday it'll keep

Dan: Yeah. Hey guys I hope you're listening because that's what all those Moleskins are on that top shelf in the office but um

So it's, it's not the sense that I actually track the gratitude, it's captured, I capture it, and it kind of created this vibration of gratitude and appreciation. Um, but I do wonder if there is a way to track it and use it and use to grow on rather than just there being a hum. Um, it's almost [00:13:00] like on the, on the contrary, on the contra side of that is, um, I'm kind of like a goldfish when it comes to bad news or bad experiences with people or situations where, okay, it's happened, I've dealt with it.

And now I just, I've learned from it. And I don't want to ever think about it again. So when that, Person comes back to me years later or whatever. And it's like, Oh, do you remember that? I, I try not to remember those things. I learn what I can from them, but I try and block them out. This is my long way around of saying, do you think there is a benefit to capturing and tracking that gratitude either for yourself or as EOA as your company?

Malcolm: By the way, I very much like you. I don't, um, I don't, uh, grudge is not something that I hold. I, you know, things happen. Uh, and by the way, I tell my clients, every project is a mini battlefield. It's how you behave in the trenches that kind of makes you who you are, right? So things are going to go sideways.

Shit happens. Um, it's how you fix it that counts. So to me, [00:14:00] Even, even bad situations are a source of gratitude. As a bad situation happens, you come in, you work at it, you fix whatever you can, you do your best possible job, but the gratitude is still there. so, I'm not sure about the tracking of gratitude.

I think it's something that sort of cumulatively builds upon your soul, right? As we get older, I'm no longer a spring chicken, 55 years old. I'm really getting a little long in the tooth, but what I am realizing is that I, I, I build on this sort of emotional resiliency, um, and trying to ride waves a little bit smoother, um, and a lot of that is built upon the backbone of having experienced tough times and being grateful for how I've been able to get through them. and I think that's something that you can convey, you can, you can, you can mentor, you can teach, you can espouse, you can prophetize. [00:15:00] But until we've all kind of gone through it ourselves, it's very hard to really make it become part of us. Um, if that makes sense.

Dan: Yeah,

Malcolm: you have to learn yourself to get

Dan: no, it does make sense. And I, I like, and maybe that hum I'm sure that metaphor of the humming. of gratitude and appreciation is really that cumulative build, like you said, on the soul, right? So it's like, it's almost filling a reservoir so you don't get those spikes, right? Um, it, it just kind of levels it out.

But then it, if you take that idea of cumulative, cumulative, oh my God, I can't speak now, cumulatively building on gratitude and appreciation and filling up your soul that way, I think that there's something in there As it relates to when you first said measuring an ROI on hospitality, because I think you said something to the effect that it's not necessarily about the actual, like, ROI on a P& L, right, or balance sheet.

There's something, it's in that, [00:16:00] that cumulative buildup or hum, is really where you and your team bring your your expertise and skill set to kind of bring those embers together, if you will. What do you think? How does, how can you tie those two ideas together? Is there

Malcolm: yeah, when we design a property, we work extremely hard to come up with a concept. The concept has to become sort of this, Irreducible DNA, right? You, you distill all this information down. You gather all this information from all disparate, disparate sources, break them all down into something that you just cannot isolate, you cannot separate.

Once we have that barest of essences, right, that, that, like I said, DNA, The design flows from that point moving forward. It's not a subjective exercise anymore. I don't, I don't care if you like pink or green or blue. It's kind of going back to what the DNA is all about. That DNA needs to be infused into every aspect of the project.

And it's that relentless drive to go [00:17:00] back and say, you know, what is that DNA? What does that mean? And what that does is, is creates At the end of the project, a sense of personality. So it's not just a look. It's not just a flat image on a postcard. It's much more cinematically enveloping. It's much more sensorial.

It's something that you don't just see or hear, but you truly actually feel. And in order for that, So the stage set to be complete. What we do is we actually talk to the, uh, the team members that are actually going to stay on property. Cause you know, once we go, it's up to them to make it, to make it really happen.

So I, just before opening day, I usually gather all of the teammates. You know, every, every single manager and every single maitre d and everybody on the team and gather them in the lobby and give them sort of a, this is what the project is about. This is the personality of the project. This is, this is who you are basically, uh, in the trenches with.

Um, and it's amazing what that does. That rally is the entire team within Esprit de [00:18:00] Corps, where they feel like they are now belong to something way greater than themselves, way greater than punching a ticket and getting a paycheck. Um, Because now they're, they're, they're part of another family. They have their own family.

They have their own friends, but this is really a family. And that to me is, is way, way bigger. And that's how we infuse properties with much more than just design, but really giving it an ethos and a reason for being, um, that's, that's beyond just color and palette and texture.

Dan: so as you were writing, as you were saying that I wrote values, values, values, because that's, what's kind of resonating with me. And if I, if I think about just Knowing you and seeing your career arc. And I think so much of that and the resiliency and the gratitude is really, it's a core value.

And if you think about trading in that currency and also you're talking about team and people, how do you attract those good people as stakeholders? They could be the [00:19:00] clients. They could be people who you're working with on your team. Um, they could be, other members on the team, all of the stakeholders on a team.

Like, how do you, how do you identify those similar values and find that attractiveness and lean into it and use that to grow your business?

Malcolm: So it's really interesting that so many of the most tenured members of our office started out as interns. And they started out as interns 10, 12, whatever years ago. not knowing much other than that, which they were taught in school. And, you know, you come out of school, you don't know what you don't know.

Basically you're, you're getting thrust into an environment like hospitality design, and it's a very steep, arduous, but fantastic learning curve. So when I'm hiring, I don't hire talent. I don't hire expertise. I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't hire, um, um, People that come in with large [00:20:00] egos. I hire amazing people.

I hire people that are enthusiastic, um, have a great work ethic, understand that some things are bigger than just what they look like. Paycheck, um, the money will come and it does really, really well, uh, to senior people that, uh, that, uh, that, that learn the trade. Um, but early on all that mentorship that goes into it, reasserts certain convictions and what, what is very, what's common denominator in our office is how we treat each other.

And that's what we do. When something falls out of place and someone is not treating others in that same way, they immediately stand out because it's such an anomaly. It really is, is, is a folly in the landscape. Um, so, so to us, keeping that That tenor, that relationship, that camaraderie, that mentorship, that, that [00:21:00] enthusiasm, that passion for what we do really kind of oozes out.

And when we have vendors come in, they talk about it. They talk about, you know, how different the environment is in this office. It's not just welcoming at a silly level, but it's welcoming it at a very professional and encouraging and nurturing level. And that continues to translate beyond the borders of.

ourselves and vendors and engineers and partners. It goes all the way to clients and clients understand the meaning of that and the longevity and, and, and how much they can trust and rely on us. Um, we do zero marketing. We don't have a, uh, uh, we don't have a business development branch. We don't go out knocking on doors.

Everything we do is word of mouth. Uh, and we have clients since the day I opened my office, they haven't gone away. So, That comes from, uh, a sense and a reliance of, of complete and utter trust. And sometimes it, it baffles me because we come up with ideas that are quite, quite outrageous, and they trust [00:22:00] that we will take care of it for them.

We don't just design and walk away. You know, Godspeed. We will be there all the way to heads on beds and make sure that it's fantastic. So that takes a long time to develop. It's not something that happens overnight. Um, but we have a team of 34 people in this office and they all have the same mentality.

It's, it's a, it's a very, very strong, um, empathetic team.

Dan: Again, empathy comes up. So this is of the 30 to 40 people that you have on your team currently, what percent of them would you say started off as, as interns or really junior?

Malcolm: Huge. I'd say probably either interns or junior designers, probably about 70%.

Dan: That is remarkable.

Wow. 70%.

So how do

Malcolm: few,

Dan: you do that?

Malcolm: well, we have a few very senior people, um, sort of my age, very senior, uh, old. but then we, then a lot of them are in [00:23:00] their, in their thirties, in their thirties, young people, and they go down to their twenties, just very strong, enthusiastic, passionate people. That's, that's how it happens.

They, they come in very early on and the mentors teach and those that are taught. Suddenly become mentors. And it's, the learning curve is incredibly steep in our office for exactly that reason, because we focus so much on teaching and so much on imparting, imparting knowledge and learning from each other.

We have an open office, so we're all learning from each other's successes and failures. You learn a lot more from your failures than you do from successes. So, um, so yeah, we have, we, most of our team, as I look around, started as extremely green, green people, and are now absolute experts in their field.

Dan: Wow. Um, okay, so let's pull on that empathy thread a bit more. So in attracting good people, as far as clients, teammates, other [00:24:00] stakeholders in the business, from vendors to all, all those people in your world that have helped make EOA successful. earlier you mentioned that one of the best compliments you ever, or most rewarding, I don't remember if it was rewarding or best, but it was 15 or more years ago in that one example you gave.

Um, You started your company 16 years ago, 16 and a half or 17 years ago. So I assume if that was the finish, that was probably on one of your first projects, right? Because

of how long it takes. So, but when an entrepreneur starts a company, sometimes they make bad hires. Sometimes they make, they, they sign a contract with a client that's not necessarily a fit, um, to be able to have one of those rewarding and lasting memories and of, of, of a compliment.

from like your origin story is remarkable. how would you attribute your success to having that and continuing to have that from one of your first clients? And did you have other clients along your [00:25:00] way that you're like, you know what? I'm all about empathy and good people. And I'll, I'm happy to work with you here, but like, let me just find my tribe to bring back a word that you said and, and work more with my tribe out there.

Malcolm: know, probably one of the worst things you could ever do is keep bad company and try to modify who you are in order to make the bad company happy. Um, I don't, I try not to keep bad company. I really do. I try very hard to exclude bad company from coming into the realm of our office. Um, what we do, we do every day.

for way more hours than we spend time at home. Um, there is no reason to do something and be miserable every day because you have a bad client, a bad partner, a bad employee, uh, bad vendors. I mean, you name it. Um, so we shed those pretty quickly. We, we, [00:26:00] we shed the negativity really, really fast. We make decisions on, on who to play with and who not to play with in the same bit.

Um, Um, and we, we make sure that those that we do play with value our interaction, um, because if the interaction is not valued, it's just absolutely not, not, not worth it. We don't do what we do for a paycheck. I mean, had I, had I looked for that, I would have taken a different turn on campus. Um, we do what we do.

Because we love what we do and we want to share in, in what we love. So I always look for clients that might not have the same vision. They might rely on us for vision, but they have the same intention. Um, so they might not know where they're going to end up. But they know what they want to get out of it and, and what they want to get out of it.

It is, if it's purely financial, I run like the wind, um, because the finances will come. But if you're chasing finances right out of the gate, you, you, you're barking up the wrong tree. Um, so, so, so we make sure that we [00:27:00] align ourselves with very, very, well aligned clients that really have their, their, their heads on straight as to what, what they want to do.

So we interview them as much as they interview us. And that's that, by the way, I hope that doesn't come across the wrong way. Um, but it's truly about making sure that they end up understanding who we are, what we bring to the table and how we're going to be their champions all the way through the project.

And that needs to be valued. If that is not a value, we don't, we don't, we don't want the project. Not every project is for us. Yeah.

Dan: Yeah, and I would also assume as far as like being so far over on the empathetic scale If you do have that wrong mix, it's it can be debilitating in many ways and it's like it gets you out of your sense of purpose and drive and reason for being and that's as Another empathetic person like that's not that's a horrible place to be and I do not like it

Malcolm: [00:28:00] no, you just need to, you need to define your boundaries. You need to know what the boundaries are, what the boundaries for the company are, what the behavioral boundaries, uh, communication boundaries, establish those early on, you know, uh, Toll fences make good neighbors. You just want to make sure that the swim lanes are established early on what, uh, what you will accept, what you will not accept.

There are some very brash clients out there. There are some very brash contractors. And, um, and, and making sure that we're all aligned as to what the intention of the team is. That we're all, you know, like a, like a rugby match. We're all printing it. We're all in a scrum. We're pushing on the same direction.

That goes all the way down the line in, in a project from the owner to the investor, to the developer, to the contractor, to, you know, the, the, the guy on site that's, that's putting up the plaster. Um, and, and we're somewhere in between, but, uh, but we're all one team. So again, we make sure that we one have a very specific aura and a very specific ethos that we impart coming out of the office that's within the office and make sure that [00:29:00] that doesn't get cannibalized.

Once we get out into the field.

Dan: And as a new, recently new ish New Englander, I appreciate the Robert Frost quote about the good fences making good neighbors. It's always good. Um, I've been talking to, like, I do talk to a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of entrepreneurs listen. And a lot of people who want to be entrepreneurs, um, also listen.

And some of that, you know, feedback and gratitude or on the, going back to the, like that unsolicited, compliment or feedback that I find. The most resounding for me or impactful for me. Um, I hear people who are listening like, you know, I was nervous to take that first step and hearing all these stories, it just helped me do it.

And I'm starting a business. And that's amazing because again, you think about that trail of impact. Um, And people succeeding and failing. It's, it's just amazing. When you look back at [00:30:00] your first entrepreneurial step, because you were a principal at another firm, like what were some, what were some of the decision making processes in your head about starting EOA,

Malcolm: you know, I started my company when I was 39 and I remember how, how scary, how bloody scary that was. I had, I had a laptop and you know, I, I had nothing else than a laptop and it really was me, myself, a laptop way, way up in the attic and in my, in my little home and, uh, cranking away and trying to figure out what to do. My wife was never scared. My wife is like, no, you've got this. No problem at all. She, she, she backed me up and, and, and it was a, it was an incredible, um, she was, she was a force of nature, just, just pushing me forward and propelling me into, into keeping this going. But I knew that I knew that I had it in me.

I knew that I had all the components I needed to make this happen, but I also knew that I was going to [00:31:00] work, you know, every day, 24, 7, blood, sweat, and tears. To make it happen. And it's, it's, it's a brutal journey. It's, let not anybody tell you anything otherwise. It's a very, very difficult journey. And you have to be fully, utterly invested in making it happen.

If you are, it's, it's absolutely fantastic. just make sure that you have a really clear mind as to where you want to take it. I always tell my clients, as long as we establish the goalposts very early on, and we're super clear as to where we want to take this, this, this product, we're not going to have any hiccups.

It's when, when you just have many disparate influences that, that you get, uh, distracted. And I didn't, I really, I really kind of knew what I wanted to do. Before that, uh, when I was in graduate school, um, I went to graduate school, uh, uh, for architecture. Halfway through the program, I became a little disillusioned with architecture by itself.

Uh, looked across the aisle, looked at the landscape architecture team, loved what they were [00:32:00] doing, the philosophy, the design, uh, the concepting, everything. So I started taking more and more, courses in, in landscape architecture. ended up doing a dual thesis called Grounding Boundaries, which was at Fisher's Island.

That was my, my, my master's thesis in the island off of New London. Um, and it brought architecture and landscape into one sort of synthetic organism. So no longer was I just doing architecture, you know, plopping buildings devoid of context, but I was truly Uber contextualizing them. Then when I became a principal down, down, uh, down here in South Florida of another firm, I started taking on interior design teams and what I was realizing is there was an awful lot of finger pointing, you know, architect did this, interior designer did that, landscape architect, lighting, blah, blah, blah.

And I said, stop the press. I'm going to, I'm going to start a company that brings all of these disparate traits together under one big umbrella, which is sort of the master architectural umbrella. Edge of Architecture. So EOA really speaks to bringing all these disciplines and hugging them and [00:33:00] empathetically dealing with them, uh, internally before bringing the concept back to the client.

So whether we do interiors or architecture or landscape or master planning or branding, it's always going to be in the context of. of experiential design and thoughtfully plucking the benefits of all the disparate disciplines to provide something very holistic. So we are not just an interior design firm.

We're not just an architecture firm. We're not just a branding firm, et cetera. We're really a, a much more, um, holistic package.

Dan: If you, it totally makes sense. And the empathy of architecture. actually, as you were saying that, there's all, aside from you incorporating landscape into your practice, I'm sure there are more, but another person that comes to mind Um, that does that, who was a former guest on here, it was Bill Bensley.

And he started off as Landscape, he's in Southeast Asia. And I, I, and looking at your projects, and the projects [00:34:00] that I've worked with you on, and just the catalog, even the projects I haven't, Landscape plays a huge role. And when I look at the stuff that Bill does, also, Landscape is really, it's like that secret weapon that really makes a memorable, role.

experience, especially in any built environment, but on hospitality in particular, um, How do you set up, how do you, when you're working on a new project and you're like, okay, let's, are you working, are you thinking about the landscape first? Or what's coming into mind first? Or are you going back to thinking about the story of what's trying to be

Malcolm: It goes to concept. It really goes to concept every single time with, with, with no question. It's concept first and everything is derived from the concept. Landscape, uh, the urban setting, the approach, is it self referential? Is it porous? Is it open? Is it enclosed? You know, all, all this stuff goes right back to the concept.

We can't [00:35:00] always control the architecture. We're not always the architect. Sometimes we're interior designers, sometimes we're architects, not interior designers, but there is enough. Meet in the concept that it becomes somewhat pervasive and everything goes back to answering the question of the concept.

Um, we're doing an Undaz right now, uh, with Hyatt in, in Miami beach and an awesome, awesome project, with Sunstone and, That started as a concept, really, really interesting concept having to do with some anthropomorphic, you know, sensibility of water and humans sort of interacting in this day and age and bringing the water into the property.

And it's amazing No matter where you are on the property now, as it's being built, as we speak, you can really feel, uh, I mean, it's palpable, the sinuous edges and the, the water and the erosion. And that sensibility isn't only in the architecture, isn't only in the landscape, isn't only in the interiors.

[00:36:00] It's in pretty much everything. So it's one cohesive bond. So we started with the concept, we start with the master planning, we start with the ideas, and then the master planning shows in the initial drafts for, for the landscape. Um, and then it goes inside. It's, it's really a language. It's, it's a call and response constantly.

You know, we do branding and the branding to us is, is the call and the architecture, interiors, and landscape is the response to that call. So we make sure that it's, that it's, uh, inextricable

Dan: in your perfect project order of operation, it's branding first, because that helps really establish the

Malcolm: always. No question.

Dan: It's amazing

how many projects that's not the case though, right? It's, It's crazy to me

Malcolm: Know, you, you asked about my first project and the first project, and then it goes back to when I started the company. And honestly, it was, it's, it's a longer story. I'll tell you about the first one, but the second one was the one I'm talking about. This, this, uh, this, uh, lobby lounge. Um, and the concept was brought up first, It's, it's actually the lobby lounge of the Marriott in [00:37:00] Marco

Island at the, at the JW. Um, and it still looks the same, you know, whatever it is, uh, 14, 14, 15 years later. Uh, we're doing some small modifications to things, but, but the main, the ethos of it is still the same. And it was a big change, big, big radical change.

We did sort of these ribs in the ceiling. Um, but we were doing what I call the lowercase B branding way before branding was even a thing. Part of the equation. So coming up with a concept that was very, very strong and making sure that it was very, very infused. So, um, uh, and, and we continue to do that today.

Now, every brand that's, you know, lifestyle and luxury requires branding before the design is done. So I don't know if you knew that, but that really, it's called an autograph luxury collection, Hilton, uh, Curio. They're all sort of pushing for the branding to be done before we start putting, on paper.

Dan: But I am, I am amazed at how many projects go off like, okay, we're going to do the, [00:38:00] they'll come up with a narrative, like, okay, let's do a narrative, but it's not necessarily a really cohesive brand package that is values, purpose, vision. And then, because if you can nail that, it's It all trickles down.

Malcolm: That's, you know, when I talk about irreducible, that's exactly it. If you can distill it all and make it very, very tight and clean and succinct, and it's in everybody's mind as they're designing and thinking through the project. And not just designing, but also opining on it, right? So it makes it much more, um, much more linear for the client to be able to prove something that they understood at the outset.

Dan: Well, I'm, I'm personally very excited for Andaz Miami cause as working as a Berman Falk is doing all the case gives and seating and those are in production right now. And I can't wait to see everything installed when that is all completed. And that's going to be so fantastic. And as if, as you look to the future and, you know, you've been [00:39:00] doing this for 16 and a half years and thinking about What's exciting you most about, you know, your career journey, where you are now, the projects that you've worked on, like, what's exciting you most as you look out to the future.

Malcolm: You know what excites me the most is our positioning. I wish I had thought about this before getting on the call because I didn't realize this was the surprise. Um, but what excites me the most is the positioning. talking about years and years of molding. We've molded the company.

We've molded the team to a point where it's very, very strong. And I literally look around the office and look at, look at the team members and look at what they're doing and how they're working and thinking through projects. I've always told my team, I'm never going to teach you how to design. I'm going to teach you how to think about design and the way the team is thinking about design and rationalizing design, putting us in a position.

To do work that 10 years ago would have been inconceivable for us to do. Um, we are in [00:40:00] an amazing position to do amazing luxury product right now. Luxury, lifestyle, thoughtful, whatever you want to call it. Um, just very very thought provoking, highly hospitable work. Whatever that means for us tribesmen.

Dan: positioning is amazing because it, okay. I want to go back to founding because as much as you think about positioning and the path forward, when you were up in your, I think you said your attic on your laptop working, um, you're also building the airplane as it's taking off. And I'm like, and your wife supported you.

And like, that's a huge thing there. As much as you want to think about positioning from the origin, you're, you're not, you're surviving at that point, right? You're working really hard. You're surviving, but you, it seems to me, what's pretty cool is that [00:41:00] you've managed to attract the right people on your team and also clients and other stakeholders to kind of help build that relationship you discover what that positioning is over your, your journey.

How do you think that idea of positioning from 16 and a half years ago to now has changed and what's exciting you most about that change?

Malcolm: Well, the big difference is that I knew my intention 16 and a half years ago. I knew what I wanted to do. In fact, my, my positioning statement, my narrative for the company, my company statement is exactly the same today as it was then.

Dan: What is it?

Malcolm: I can't recite it, but it really talks about the fact that we, that we live in a, in an accelerating world and in a world of accelerating change, and that we're always going to be working very, very hard. it's a decent. Decent chapter, but we're going to be very working, very, very hard to make sure that we are ahead [00:42:00] of the world of accelerating change, that we don't fall behind, that we're not repeating.

We're not parroting stuff that that's out there, but we're actually working on a, on, on an owner's and a client's, uh, They have to make sure that we're really, really thinking about where we should be, not where we have been. and thinking more about the future as opposed to thinking about the past, talking about laurels and, enjoying the past.

We only enjoy the past as a resource for the future. And that's my position today. And that was my position then. Um, so it really is. Rolling momentum that has taken place. And what I see now is, is sort of the fruit of all that labor is the fact that we are so, so strong and our positioning is really rock solid.

Dan: So I think going back to early in the conversation, a word that I wrote down that really resonated with me is this idea of being relentless, right? And I think that I think I like to surround [00:43:00] myself with people who Whatever got us to where we are right at this moment is not going to get us into the future.

And okay, so yeah, I sell furniture. I furnish hotels. It's not really about the furniture. It's about the team is built and obsessing over the process that has, that's gotten us here, but always constantly tinkering and evolving. And, uh, I dunno, I just love that idea of being relentless or obsessive over constant, that constantly changing.

And like, once you get to the top of one summit, The next summit. lies ahead.

Malcolm: You know, you know what, you know what makes you stronger? What makes you stronger is not just becoming tired. When you do something, what makes you stronger is. Being able to do more when you're exhausted, if that's, that's what truly builds your muscles, that's what truly builds your character is, is being able to do beyond what you thought was okay.

Um, I think it's Mary Andretti that, that, that, uh, said once, [00:44:00] He was a race car driver. If you're fully under control, you're not driving fast enough. Um, so getting to the point where you know that your tires are slightly screeching sideways, cause you know, you've started to drift, but you've got the pedal right in the right place to just keep it on track and just accelerating a little bit more and getting out of that drift.

So that's, that's a really interesting moment. So for us. Pretty is like the bane of my existence. I, that, that, that makes my skin crawl. Nothing in our office is pretty. Nothing in our office is good enough. It's got to be excellent. It's got to be fabulous. It's got to be fantastic. It's got to really make your heart pound.

And if it doesn't, it's just not enough. Um, I talk about, you know, one of the, one of the concepts we talk about in the office is, is, uh, path as destination. It's a huge component for, for us. And to me, no matter where you are in the properties, if you're walking around cinematically enveloped. You stop, you turn around, you look, it's got to be amazing.

So there's never a point where you rest in your [00:45:00] laurels and say, that's good enough. You can always come back and take a look at it one more time and say, yes, that fabric can be a little bit better. That piece of furniture, that detail in the furniture, that sabot on the table can be a little bit more refined.

So what, what are the components that make, your products stand out beyond. And that starts with branding. I mean, you know, the refinement of the concept, the refinement of the words, the selection of the keywords that you're using, that evokes some feeling, some sensibility in the client and in you, right?

That you both share really will drive you all the way to the finish line. If you don't have that word, or you don't challenge yourself enough to use the right word, You might never achieve what you want to achieve. Same applies to everything that we do. To landscape, to architecture, to interiors, to furniture design, to, to, to branding.

We want to make sure that we push it and refine it and distill it and clean it so that it's way, better than good enough.

Dan: I love the Mario [00:46:00] Andretti metaphor because having dabbled in driving cars on a track and getting it right to the edge, which is also a great name, by the way, if you're ever thinking about using edge in your corporate branding, but, uh, it's, it's really learning how to get to the edge of the performance envelope and sometimes spinning out.

But when you do get into that Right at the edge of the envelope. It's a really exciting and exhilarating place to be. And I also look at, you know, if I'm interested in history or reading or other courses of study that I'm kind of exploring, it's always on those margins. It's at the edges of where the empires or civilizations clash that to me, the most, and not necessarily in war, it's like.

It's in those margins that the really cool, interesting stories and histories kind of lay, I don't know. It makes that idea of tribe way more interesting because you know, that's where you're really learning about the limits of human nature as [00:47:00] well.

Malcolm: we excel at our boundaries, right? You never, ever tap your brakes in the corner.

Dan: Yeah.

Malcolm: When you're corning, you tap your brakes, you will spin out. So, so don't do it. When you're in the corner, focus on the corner, focus on coming out, focus on acceleration, and keep yourself very, very grounded. Um, but yeah, the, the, the boundaries to us, that's exactly, in fact, the word boundaries is, is very strong in my initial narrative and was my thesis, that the name of my thesis was grounding boundaries.

So speaking about the dissolution of boundaries between architectural landscape and interiors. And that's huge. It's, it's just playing in the boundaries, but, uh, not letting them confine you.

Dan: And as you said that one part, it reminds me of a movie from the eighties. It was called star man, but it was like, I don't, I don't actually remember everything that happened in it, but there was this one line. Where this alien was down on earth and basically saying like, you know, what's amazing about you humans [00:48:00] is that you're best when you're at your worst, right?

The best of humanity comes out when you're in the worst situations.

Malcolm: Yeah. Talk about the greatest generation and stuff like that. There's, there's a reason for

Dan: Totally. And that's also nerve wracking that we're 80 years past that and we cannot forget. And have collective amnesia from what all of those greatest generation of humans

Malcolm: No, but it, but it, but it, but it really brings up, um, the whole notion of embracing adversity. Um, you talked about my attic, you talked about, you know, I had to get my shit together. I had to figure it out. There was, you know, the, the, the ships were burnt at the shore. There was nothing, nothing, nothing else I do.

Um, and embracing adversity, understanding that adversity makes you stronger. What doesn't kill you just, just makes you much more, uh, uh, able to persevere, um, and teaching adversity and teaching people how to, you know, Get themselves in slightly sticky situations and maybe fading a little bit. You spin out a couple of times, you'll know not to tap your brakes on the corner.

So what, what [00:49:00] do they do? How does, how do they specify learning what other people's, uh, people's mistakes have been in specification, in drawing and in, in, you know, uh, massing of buildings and placement of, of, of sculptures, placement of lighting. It just, it goes from micro to macro in such a quick blink of an eye.

Um, so you just have to keep pushing the boundaries. Embrace adversity and just keep plugging away.

Dan: Now

Malcolm: Never, never, never let up. Never, never tap the brakes in the

Dan: I want to go back to two years before you being up in the attic. So it would be the 37 year old Malcolm. Actually, let's go to the 36 year old Malcolm. So maybe three years before you started EOA, If the 55 year old Malcolm that I'm speaking to now could magically appear in front of the 36 year old Malcolm, as you're wrestling with, do I do it?

Do I not do it? Maybe. What advice would you have for yourself?

Malcolm: I wasn't wrestling with do I do it, do I not do it at the time. I was, I was [00:50:00] way more focused on how to do it right. I was really, I've always been extremely focused on how to provide solutions to problems. So I, I, I literally was just a machine in how do I. take care of the problems that I see around me by bringing all the disciplines together.

And I did that at that other firm as well. At that firm, even though I came in as an architect, I started taking, taking over interior design teams, taking over landscape projects, master planning, all that kind of stuff started organically coming together. But I wish I could tell you there was an aha moment when I said, um, young man, you must walk forth.

It just, it just wasn't like

Dan: Okay. So as a designer, architect, solver of problems, um, and also burning the ships like a good military metaphor, another military metaphor is perfect is often the enemy of good. So when you're 36, And you're trying to figure out [00:51:00] how to thread that needle and make everything go just well, or go perfectly, I'm sure that perfection blocks you sometimes, how do you get over that?

How do you, how do you, Sacrifice the perfection to take the step forward sometimes. So you're not like

Malcolm: You know, it's, it's, it's, You know what's really funny? The more I think about AI and this, this brave new world that we're kind of setting off into, the more I realize that AI right now stimulates us seeking perfection, right? It'll give you the perfect, the perfect view and the perfect this and the perfect body and the perfect everything.

I think the future is the beauty and imperfection. And I think that that's the future. a term that, that, that, that we use a lot in our office, the beauty and perfection is, is finding beauty in things that are imperfect because of their imperfect beauty. Um, so even though I, I tried really, really hard to make things as tight and as hermetic as possible.[00:52:00]

Perfection is never what I was seeking, right? I was seeking much more for unity and collaboration and, uh, uh, and concept and destination and drive than I was seeking for perfection. I think perfection is, is, is, is really important. Pepsi is really not something that, that we're, um, we should ever strive for because we will never make, we'll, we'll never find the, the finish line.

I'm really quite content with putting together a presentation, pushing, pushing, pushing it, and then stopping. And I'll be very happy with the outcome of whatever the effort was. Um, it's less about perfection and more about doing something spectacular. And that, to me, spectacular is where, where I want to be.

I wanna, I want to live in, you wanna, I, I wanna fly low and see things go by quickly. Uh, I, I want to see, you know, people peer out of a lobby, lounge drape and say, I don't know what it is, but it's [00:53:00] pretty cool. I wanna see people walk into a, a, a property that we've done and turn their head sideways because they don't quite understand it, but then they smile and, and, and that.

That response is what I'm looking for. So it's not about perfection. It's not about replicating something because it's already perfect. It's about investigation. It's about pushing boundaries and, and doing something extraordinary.

Dan: Yeah. And again, you're scratching at that unsolicited response as well. Right. It's, it keeps coming up. Um, that smile was unexpected. One more thing on that perfect being the enemy of good. So you've built this team, 70 percent of them have been with you for a really long time. Um, as far as the other leaders in your company, for yourself and the other leaders, are there any Examples you can give as far as like being mentors to the younger people coming in and the good people that you attract, the new, the new, the new younger blood that you bring into the [00:54:00] company, um, where you can kind of help coach them off the pedestal of perfect to be like, okay, I, I appreciate what you're doing. Let's go with good and see what happens and get into the envelope. Get to the edge

Malcolm: You know, and I, I don't think, I don't think telling anybody that good is, is our, is our goal. Our goal is, is pretty spectacular. Now, spectacular Also comes in in perfect form, right? So it doesn't need to be perfect to be spectacular. Um, but, but, but good is also my enemy because good enough is, is not, is definitely not my friend.

Um, but I've got to tell you as to mentorship, every person, except for the person that has just walked in. Is a mentor. They really are. And that sounds really cheesy, but it's a hundred percent true. There's sort of like trickle down mentorship, like trickle down economics. I mean, I, I started at the top and with, with, with the people in the upper [00:55:00] echelon very quickly, it filters down and that mindset, that mentality, that expectation becomes so, so, so prevalent and it's so pervious and literally kind of filters all the way down to the new people that There is no surprise to them because they're, they're living and breathing the DNA of let's do something spectacular from day one. So six months from now, when a new intern might come in just for the summer, that six month old individual \will be training that person. On to how to make things spectacular and how to think about design, not about coming in with preconceived notions or a nice little Pinterest image that they just saw that by the way, 50, 000 other designers saw as well.

Um, but they think is absolutely fantastic. So it's really checking your ego at the door and allowing others to truly help you and mentor you into how to, how to, how to really think about design.

Dan: how do you [00:56:00] formalize that mentor mentee relationship far as, is there culturally within, within EOA,

Malcolm: EOA is a meritocracy. EOA is not a place where you run around with badges on your shoulders. Um, uh, it's really about, uh, show me what you can do. Uh, you know, play, play the part of the part will be yours. As people grow, they, they sort of stretch themselves into, into higher positions and those positions organically become theirs.

Um, we do have a stratification. We do have roles and responsibilities. Um, you know, I'm, I'm the, I'm the founder and design director. But below me, there are, uh, principles there. There's a, uh, there are basically four principles to an architecture, to an interior design. Um, and under them are design leads, technical leads, branding leads, and all of those are essentially the heads, uh, or the ones supervise those departments, uh, beyond them are the project managers, then the designers and so on and so [00:57:00] forth.

Um, so there is, there is, there is sort of a, um, a hierarchy, if you will, uh, in title, but it's, it's not something that is, that is worn around like a, an applet, a

Dan: well, Malcolm, I appreciate your relentless pursuits, um, and to just actually talk about it, like uninterrupted with you and also to share, uh, the Your vision and passions. With the audience at large has been like illuminating and also just reaffirming to me as far as just being obsessive about certain things, because again, it's not so much about the, what we do, it's that why, and for me, it's being, it's obsessing about. other people and, and the journey that they're on.

Malcolm: yeah, it's, it's not easy. It's difficult, but it's incredibly rewarding. And especially, you know, when designers come back and when clients come back and with owners and guests come back and tell you how, how enriching it was in their lives, it, it just. [00:58:00] fills

Dan: yeah. And, and sometimes the hard part is as far as the good people that we all attract is when there's not people of your tribe on that relentless or obsessive nature about other people on an empathetic level and obsessing over, um, making sure that everyone's cared for and that you're doing spectacular work.

Um, It kind of takes the fun out of it and it's making me reconsider some, some, I don't know, relationships that I have in my, in my world. So, um, things that I've, I've been thinking about for a long time, but I, I appreciate you for, uh, helping me make me get clear about that. Um, if anyone wanted to learn more about you or EOA, the best way for them to?

Learn.

Malcolm: Um, we, you know, our website, like everybody else's is up there, you know, eoagroup. com, um, maltenberg. com as well. Um, and we have, um, we have, um, uh, we have [00:59:00] Instagram. We have LinkedIn. We're, we're, we're all on that as well. Um, it's actually really great. We have our, our, our, our website. We had the great video done by Travel by Design by Marriott as well.

That's kind of cool. You can, you can see that video in Amazon Prime. I think we're season, uh, season six. Um, but it's a, it's a great video is playing in, in, in all the guest rooms, in, in hotels across the, uh, across the world in every Marriott. But, uh, yeah, we're here and reach out. I mean, we're, we're, we're extremely accessible.

Um, like I said, we use the E word quite, quite a bit over here. Uh, but anybody that ever needs anything, please definitely feel free to reach out. Uh, you can come and talk to us anytime. Our doors are always open.

Dan: So I want to give you unfettered gratitude and appreciation for finally making this happen and like impacting me in a really pretty cool way that I'm looking forward to waking up tomorrow and writing about my, my feelings and, [01:00:00] uh, and thoughts on this conversation because it really struck me in a, in a really big way.

So thank you. thank you.

Malcolm: Awesome. Thank you. And we have, we have tons more to talk about, so hopefully we'll catch up over dinner or drink

Dan: We will. And I also want to just thank all the listeners without you, uh, we wouldn't be here talking to Malcolm. Uh, we keep growing every week and rising up in all the rankings. And I started a newsletter. So please be sure to subscribe to that. So you can learn from all the 170 odd. Episodes that are out there and just, I'm doing a really obsessive and relentless job of curating some of those and finding a theme every week so that the learnings from awesome people like Malcolm and all the other guests just don't get lost and it helps shorten your journey.

So thank you all very much.

Malcolm: And Dan, thank you. Awesome, awesome job. I love what you do. Everybody loves you as well. So, on behalf of everybody else on this, uh, on this team and on this viewing, uh, thank you. you. Thanks, my friend. Appreciate it.

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