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The team from Force Technologies will be discussing all things obsolescence amongst themselves and with a mix of special guests from the industry.
00:00:16:13 - 00:00:46:27
Charlotte
Hi, I'm Charlotte and welcome to another episode of Force Tech Talk. Now, you may notice that things look a little bit different in this episode. We've been getting really good feedback from the podcast. We love doing the podcast, so we thought we'd change the set up a little bit. So here we go. Today's episode Ben and I I’m joined by Ben again, for his sins. are going to be talking about Cots packaging versus custom packaging.
00:00:46:29 - 00:01:10:24
Charlotte
It's becoming a bit more of a hot topic, if you like, in the industry. It's becoming something that we get asked about a lot more to explain. So yeah. So let's just dive straight into it, Ben. Yeah. So let's get the terminology first, because the obsolescence World Semiconductor World loves to use abbreviations, acronyms, shortened versions of things.
00:01:10:24 - 00:01:18:01
Charlotte
So let's talk about first what Cots packaging actually means. That will define the custom packaging.
00:01:18:02 - 00:01:47:13
Ben
I think when a lot of people hear Cots, they they immediately think of commercial off the shelf and link that to an individual, an individual semiconductor, you know, but what we're really talking about in the obsolescence world is, commercial off the shelf packages. So the housing the silicon actually goes into. Yeah. And that can be equally as much of a pain in the backside in the, in the obsolescence world.
00:01:47:15 - 00:02:02:19
Ben
As you know, finding the die itself or having a source of the die, that the, you know, actually is the is the component, because packages go obsolete, just like, just like die does. Yeah. So. Yeah.
00:02:02:26 - 00:02:27:04
Charlotte
Yeah. Let's go. Obsolete packages die. Everything could go wrong all at once. Yeah. So, yeah, with so that what the kind of what we mean by cots packaging, cots packages. So in terms of the custom package, what kind of scenarios would would that involve? What does custom packaging actually mean?
00:02:27:07 - 00:03:03:10
Ben
Yeah. So you can I mean, I guess we use when we say custom, you know, sometimes it might be inherent if a customer is asking for a, for, for semiconductor in the obsolescence world, they've got a defined package drawing. And they've got a defined electrical test that the device needs to function to. So in most situations when we're talking custom, we're talking about redeveloping a like for like package, at least in footprint terms, and sort of space in their height and width to ensure that it's not, affecting any other components on the, on the customer's existing PCB.
00:03:03:11 - 00:03:25:06
Ben
Yeah. And, but but custom can go beyond that. It can go to thermally enhanced. It can go to you know, maybe they were using a plastic package before, and now they want to migrate to a, ceramic for high arrival, high reliability, because that that application now demands that. Yeah. It can it can go to lots of other aspects as well.
00:03:25:07 - 00:03:45:22
Ben
Maybe they're having trouble with surface mount versus through hole, and they want to, change the way the, the chip interface with the board. Maybe they're trying to shrink something. You know, we've we've seen that in downhole environments where customers have got an idea of the memory that they want to be using, but, you know, they're trying to put it onto a, a probe PCB, which is extremely narrow.
00:03:45:22 - 00:04:03:22
Ben
And then the, the, the packaging needs to, needs to fit that and then try to get two memories next to each other, all that, that kind of thing. So yeah, it's very varied and it's all, it's all sort of customer led. Yeah. But then at the same time, you know, it's somewhat can be led by what is physically possible.
00:04:03:22 - 00:04:06:23
Ben
So it's just those negotiations that we're having the customer and.
00:04:06:26 - 00:04:07:14
Charlotte
The all of the.
00:04:07:16 - 00:04:10:04
Ben
Cost comes into it as well. Yeah.
00:04:10:04 - 00:04:29:23
Charlotte
So yeah, I think it's understanding the customer's requirements, you know, you know, this was the original package style and how this is how it fits onto the board. Are you still going to that? Do you want to tweak it like you say if it different kind of design you're trying to shrink it or are you trying to just tweak the design so it works better in your application?
00:04:29:25 - 00:04:51:21
Charlotte
Yeah, it's kind of really capturing what they are wanting to achieve. The avoid as possible. In terms of kind of, I guess, budget and lead time and the difference between them. We can speak a little bit to that. I mean, the lead time, it's generally you know, people saying the lead time for packages and lids isn't a thing.
00:04:51:21 - 00:05:07:01
Charlotte
There is no lead time, but that can be a lead time and it can catch people out sometimes. Especially for the custom packages. So what kind of lead times are we looking out for? A custom package, for example? I mean, no, the lids are shorter, but.
00:05:07:04 - 00:05:48:21
Ben
Yeah, lids. Lids are sort of lesser of an issue. I mean, you know, just just quickly touch on our lids or lids are inherently a, a cover. Or certainly in the ceramic world. It's just a it's just a cover sheet with a sole to seal preform or of a preform. So it's a relatively non complex thing and yeah, play it to the Mil standards and that kind of thing, but very easily and readily available when you get into the packaging world you're talking complex multi-layer ceramic, with lots of internal rooting depending on the complexity of the chip and and then, you know,
00:05:48:23 - 00:06:01:23
Ben
lead forming afterwards potentially, and things like that, that need to be assessed. But on average, you're looking about 14 to 18 weeks for a. Yeah. For a from scratch package design.
00:06:01:23 - 00:06:02:08
Charlotte
Yeah.
00:06:02:11 - 00:06:22:00
Ben
Out that out at the factory. Ready to, ready to drop a piece of silicone into it and get it built. Yeah. You know plastic as well is something that's very, you know, we don't do a massive amount of plastic because we're in the defense and aerospace world where somatic, solutions are the main requirement.
00:06:22:03 - 00:06:51:13
Ben
But plastic is very much a case of, you know, finding somewhere the, the that has the tooling for that plastic plastic package. Yeah. Because it's, you know, in the, in the plastic world, you've got the, the tooling aspect of it, but then you've also got the qualification aspect of it and, you know, whereas on the ceramic on, the sort of ceramic end of the or military end of the world or the fans and the world, you've got the metal standards to put things through.
00:06:51:13 - 00:07:13:02
Ben
And then on the, on the plastic end of the world, you still have, you know, high time operating life testing and, stress testing to ensure that the plastic package isn't going to break or degrade in any way. But yeah, on the, on the, on the plastic side of things, it's just sort of tooling which is, but which has much shorter lead times but can, can sometimes end up being higher end already than that actually developing from scratch.
00:07:13:02 - 00:07:15:25
Ben
Ceramic maybe the unit cost ends up higher on the ceramic.
00:07:15:25 - 00:07:17:06
Charlotte
But yeah.
00:07:17:09 - 00:07:21:16
Ben
Yeah. It's a, it's a constant push pull of lead times and costs and.
00:07:21:18 - 00:07:23:10
Charlotte
Technical suitability and.
00:07:23:12 - 00:07:29:05
Ben
Certainly not to the customer and just sort of going from their routine. Yeah I think where it fits best for them. Yeah.
00:07:29:07 - 00:07:49:11
Charlotte
I think also when we talk about, you know, the costs being kind of in the commercial world is ahead. What's the cost. What is the cost for this and that. And you know, how does it differ? I think when you're talking about tooling or from scratch, development of a, of a package, you can do different types of tools that can bring, you know, your upfront is not as much.
00:07:49:14 - 00:08:12:08
Charlotte
And it's also if you do make that upfront investment, yes. You know, it's higher in the beginning than you maybe would have anticipated, but you secure those packages for the lifecycle of your project. You're not going to get caught later down the line when you still have a long product life cycle that you have to support. You kind of you've thought about that at the front end, because you can get kind of soft to.
00:08:12:09 - 00:08:14:28
Charlotte
Yeah, hard to. Yeah. And that, that makes it a.
00:08:15:00 - 00:08:39:28
Ben
Little more expensive and are a much, much cheaper, unit cost of tooling. Yeah. Lower entry. High at higher unit cost generally overall. Yeah. And then soft tooling has a, a sort of limit of the amount of parts you can put it through with that tool basically. Yeah. It's called a soft soft tool because it degrades over time and thus you need to replace it.
00:08:40:00 - 00:08:48:25
Charlotte
Yeah. Because that can be time and quantity content. It can be this. Oh you know in five years you can we can generate or run this many packages. And then you.
00:08:48:28 - 00:08:58:21
Ben
Have to manufacture a generally set quantity that they can run through that soft tooling, which is, you know, known for metrics that they've that gathered over the years.
00:08:58:23 - 00:09:26:27
Charlotte
I think it's again, being, you know, closer with the package manufacturers will also close with the customers to say, you know, you've got these two options, aerospace and defense, with generally running on lower quantities anyway. So like, you know, maybe you say guys, the soft tools may be a better option. Yeah. Or if we have a good understanding of their entire product lifecycle, say maybe you just you go for the hard tool and some companies, you know, prefer, you know, and I'll re they don't mind it being higher if the unit cost is lower and vice versa.
00:09:26:27 - 00:09:27:06
Charlotte
It's just.
00:09:27:07 - 00:09:28:00
Ben
Exactly.
00:09:28:03 - 00:09:41:21
Charlotte
So multitude of things. So I guess this is a hypothetical, but if budget and lead time one constraints in a perfect world which which is favorable, which is better for a, for a product.
00:09:41:29 - 00:09:44:20
Ben
How do you mean sort of between sort of cults and.
00:09:44:20 - 00:09:45:29
Charlotte
And custom.
00:09:46:01 - 00:10:00:02
Ben
Culture and custom. I mean the, the the and if you can get a commercial off the shelf package that's freely available, the cyber start free package distribution, and has been, you know, has.
00:10:00:02 - 00:10:01:03
Charlotte
All the traceability. Yeah.
00:10:01:08 - 00:10:30:25
Ben
That was rather than, that was a traceability. Exactly. Then clearly that's the favorable option because it's going to be it's going to be far cheaper. It's going to be technically suitable. Yeah. But in our world that's rare. It, it was. Yeah. It's, it's it's very rare. You know, it generally most of the time, you know, if it's any kind of slightly complex package, you're going to have to look to, to, to tool it in some regard.
00:10:30:25 - 00:10:48:26
Ben
And, and it does offer a lot of advantages, you know, especially sort of if you're moving from the old sort of third style, packages which are sort of glass for sale, where, you know, you had a, you had a, a lead frame that was glass embedded onto a, onto a base and then put a cap on and then, you know, it's a very, very high temperature sale.
00:10:48:26 - 00:11:06:26
Ben
There's potential issues with that when you're running for assembly. Then you've also got sort of the, the intensity of those types of packages can, can, degrade over time because, you know, you all years a glass seal, when those sort of devices then go for lead form as well, you know, you've got a risk of, cracking that glass.
00:11:06:26 - 00:11:41:12
Ben
So whereas the more modern assembly technique techniques. So they're all, sort of brazed, brazed lead components, with sort of seal lids. You have far less concerns of anything along that, along the nature of that. They they last better through the lifecycle of the, of the part, especially going for storage and things like that. So, yeah, there's a lot of sort of package advancements that have been made and a lot of customers are using, you know, 20, 34 year old chips that the when we migrate them to a new package with the same footprint, there's so many advantages for doing that.
00:11:41:12 - 00:11:44:28
Ben
But obviously there's cost implications, you know. Yeah for doing that as well.
00:11:45:05 - 00:11:58:06
Charlotte
Yeah. Just weighing it all up isn't that kind of presenting the options of when the of what is possible and saying, you know, you guys know the products in the product. You know better than, than we do. But this is the guidance we can give. This is how the situation is.
00:11:58:07 - 00:12:17:25
Ben
But it's nice to be able to offer advancements to. Yeah to to the to the package. And yeah. And and you know, it's there's a lot of stuff that people would have designed in 20 or 30 years ago that they, they designed. And because that was what was available. Yeah. And things of times have moved on and you can make some serious serious advancements.
00:12:17:28 - 00:12:23:29
Ben
Yeah. And yeah, improvements onto people's PCBs, which is. Yeah, it's it's nice to be favorable.
00:12:23:29 - 00:12:37:24
Charlotte
Yeah. I feel like we could spend like 3 or 4 episodes of our podcast talking about this, so you might catch another one on on this topic. But for now, thank you very much for tuning in and see you for the next one.
00:12:38:01 - 00:12:38:08
Ben
Okay.