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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: The idea of self-managed teams is compelling. It could liberate people and organizations to do more and without those pesky managers, but can it really work surely with any chaos and ultimately be ruin us for those involved. In this episode of We Not Me, we welcome back friend of the show, Jon Barnes, who is a facilitator, coach, and the co-founder of Pala, an organization that is committed to setting teams free. Jon is well placed to shed light on how organizations can accelerate through autonomy while maintaining the essential conditions for aligned to team working.
[00:00:38] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:46] Pia: And I am Pia Lee
[00:00:48] Dan: and Pia, you and I are both, um, both stuck into, uh, some big, big old projects at the moment, aren't we? And it's sort of quite, it's sort of throwing up lots of questions and seeing, seeing what's at, what's going on in these organizations now. We seem to be in another era, sort of somehow sort of the AI is shaken everything up a little bit and, um, all these organizational transf, these transformations keep changing, but I think we're seeing a lot of old patterns, but possibly even amplified.
[00:01:15] Pia: I think so. I think many organizations aren't quite sure whether Arthur or Martha at the moment. There's a lot, lot of lot of things, things going on and it's, my observation is, is that organizations are still seen as consisting of X thousand employees. Not 852 teams. So I, I don't think I've ever come across somebody who's been able to go, well, well, we consist of, you know, 600 teams spread around the world doing this, that, and that.
[00:01:45] Pia: But that's the, that's the unit where the work gets done. But it's overlooked and therefore it is a, as a construct, um, it's a dynamic that is underutilized. and there's many ways of doing it. So, it requires a conscious intention to see your teams as the powerhouse of your organization. Not just, a thing to do on an offsite.
[00:02:12] Dan: And that, and that, Idea that it's sort of, you've got individuals and yeah, I guess you better have a sort of culture to bring them together. So this sort nice vibe, but that's not the same as having a tight team that makes aci, you know, it's, and that understanding of that difference.
[00:02:28] Dan: So an offsite tends to be, oh, let's build trust and all these things that could be important, but you're gonna have to decide what you're gonna do together and do the, do the really. The tough stuff. Do the, do the hard yards as well to make sure that you know what you're doing, um, together and how you're gonna do it.
[00:02:47] Dan: And I think this prompts, um, prompted us to connect with an old friend of the show, Jon Barnes. Um, he's the founder now of Pala. and, just a brilliant consultant. I know he's someone we talk about often. We're talking about the consultants we know out there who are just exceptional and he's got this wonderful, wonderfully well-informed view, but also a non, um, he's sort of, he bring less reality come in as well?
[00:03:14] Dan: I think he's, he's not, um, not overly opinionated, if you like, on things. And so will, I think, help us to see through this, because I think. There's a big part of this where people then in this team environment are reluctant to step up and, and into a leadership role for various reasons or don't know what to do in a leadership role. And I think Jon's um, Jon's understanding of this will really, um, will really help people to move forward. So let's leap over and hear from Jon now,
[00:03:45] Pia: And it's lovely to welcome back into the We Not Me podcast studio, Jon Barnes.
[00:03:51] Jon: Hi Pia. Nice to see you again. Nice to see you, Dan. This is
[00:03:54] Dan: Okay. Thank you for coming back.
[00:03:56] Pia: I think we've got some, some, the nature of teams is changing quite a lot, so I think this would be, um, really good to sort of look at this, the different constructs and how they work and pros and cons. So, but before we do that, you know, it's, well, you know, the drill, Dan shuffle the cards and it is a.
[00:04:16] Dan: It is an orange color. I love this. This is great. And we haven't had this one before, vis bizarrely. Um, the thing I wore once that makes me cringe.
[00:04:26] Jon: Oh, easy. I dunno that it makes me cringe. I kind of think it was cool. I had the black skinny jeans phase, but it's not the black skinny jeans that were bad. It is, I dunno if it's the straw hat either, but it's the white t-shirt with the black tie printed onto it.
[00:04:39] Dan: okay. Yeah.
[00:04:41] Dan: Right. Yeah.
[00:04:44] Jon: Yeah, it was a, it was a, it was an indie phase. I've, I've moved out of it, but the, the black tie printed onto a T-shirt probably isn't my best moment.
[00:04:51] Pia: but it would've looked stunning. But we've all been there.
[00:04:54] Jon: I was experimenting. I was young.
[00:04:56] Dan: But the, but it is, I it is good though, isn't it too? yeah. Push the boundaries a little bit and you should look back on things and be slightly embarrassed. I think
[00:05:04] Jon: Yeah, you've not, you've not evolved. If you're not, they say that about authors, don't they? If you're not, uh, if you don't disagree with things you've written in the past, you've, you're clearly not grabbing.
[00:05:11] Pia: I think I once wore a Laura Ashley dress, which is something that I don't really often have to
[00:05:16] Dan: I cannot, cannot even conjure up that image pier. What the hell
[00:05:21] Pia: no. And I think I had a perm as well, so I was, I was seriously doubling down on heterosexuality.
[00:05:28] Dan: Yeah. That, that is going, that's, that's sort of uber straight, isn't it? You can't
[00:05:33] Pia: really is someone, someone thought, oh, we're going, we're it's, I'm either gonna have some electro shock therapy treatment, or they're gonna put me in a Laura Ashley dress. So, but it didn't
[00:05:43] Dan: Yeah. Well, no one say, can say you didn't give it a go, uh, before moving to the other side permanently. Excellent.
[00:05:49] Jon: I am sure you look great though, Pia.
[00:05:51] Pia: Ful.
[00:05:54] Dan: Now give us an update. How's, how's, how's, how are you doing? What's, what's happening for you, Jon?
[00:05:58] Jon: I'm good, thanks. Um, yeah, the, the update is of, um, we're, we are growing, we've got a little business going called Pala, so now we're trying to help, uh, more and more businesses move towards, let's say more autonomy. I don't like to say self-management, it feels far too dogmatic, but we can, we can probably get into that.
[00:06:16] Jon: but that's going really brilliantly, working with my wife, so learning about team dynamics in a new way as well. Of course. I'd say we are doing, we, we are doing well, but, uh, you know, can all, can all, can always smooth out the odd hiccup. I'm sure that will be a, a lifelong lesson. Yeah, so we've got, um, you know, loads of great consulting clients going on some courses launching, some events coming. Um, so it just feels really, uh, like creatively fertile at the moment. I'm in a good place, guys.
[00:06:44] Pia: it's great to hear. And what, and are you seeing that there's a change and a bigger appetite in your market?
[00:06:50] Jon: I, I can't actually say that I am seeing that in terms of autonomy. I mean, maybe I am a bit, but only perhaps because like my work spreading a bit more and I'm getting a bit more known what, what I do notice, or I don't know. Like I, I'm, I'm reluctant to stereotype, but I, I do feel like there's kind of two types of people or leaders and, I mean, there was a great book, I forget his name, Rutger, you know the, yeah, that's it. Hu Is it human? Uh, humankind or human? yeah, just, just, I'm noticing there's kind of two types of people, people who really believe in people and people who don't really believe in people. Um, and whether, whether we're talking about really empowered autonomous teams or hierarchies, like good h well run hierarchies for that matter.
[00:07:35] Jon: That distinction just seems massive to me. Like if there is a particular CEO. Who believes that given the right environment, people will tend to be like naturally disposed and instinctively want to grow and perform and do well, versus someone who thinks that even in that environment and then you actually hear these words like some people just need.
[00:07:58] Jon: Telling what to do, or some people just need X, Y, z and I'm not saying, you know, everyone's the same and everyone's got equal amounts of agency. But I do notice just a, a split. And so you asked about the market, Pia. I, I don't know that that's changing, that there's more people in the world who believe in people. Um, I'm, I'm starting to find them more and that feels really, really great from, from my perspective. But I'm curious about that.
[00:08:20] Dan: That's really heartening actually. And it's funny, I, I remember when I started, uh, my MBA, we did a course on human capital or something like that, and they were talking about this, you know, theory X and theory Y, you know, theory X, where you believe people are driven by money and punishment and they're basically gonna deviate in some way if you don't control them.
[00:08:39] Dan: And t theory y and I, I literally listened to that thought. But who believes in theory X? What does that even exist? I was so naive. Um, but yeah, they're out there.
[00:08:49] Jon: Yeah. And you, you see, you see two real different styles of economics and leadership based on those theories. Still, like the, there's behavioralism, which you see in schools, like you get a star if you're a good boy or a good girl, versus like something that really. Um, you know, my belief is given the right circumstances, our intrinsic motivation kind of switches on like a furnace and you can do amazing stuff.
[00:09:12] Jon: And I, I think there's value to both, like extrinsic motivation makes me move quicker quite often, but intrinsic motivation makes me move faster and more sustainably. So there's probably different values to both, but.
[00:09:24] Dan: absolutely. Good. Well, it's very heartening to hear you're finding more humankind out there,
[00:09:30] Pia: and, and just maybe for viewers or not viewers, listeners who, um, who don't know your perspective and background and view on things. So let's start there
[00:09:42] Jon: Yeah, so, so for listeners who, uh, have not virtually met before. Um, my work's around helping teams to become as autonomous as possible. And there's a massive spectrum for that. Uh, you know, on one end is a hierarchy feeling a lot less hierarchical, so there might still be layers of management, but those layers of management start to feel like really empowered coaching.
[00:10:04] Jon: you know, hopefully you start to hear more of stuff like, I just love my manager, or I feel really empowered at work, or those kinds of things happening. And then to the other end of the spectrum where, um, you know, I've got some teams or small organizations that are running fundamentally without. Line management in the system.
[00:10:22] Jon: So people peer review and give peer feedback and people have authority over their parts of the work. And so people are super empowered. And you know, typically what it allows is a few things. One is for work to get done faster because there's no bottlenecks anymore and people can make decisions. and the other one is huge amounts of engagement.
[00:10:40] Jon: So that, that's the word I use for it, is autonomy. In the literature, typically it's referred to as self-management. that can become somewhat dogmatic. So, so autonomy's kind of the, the core principle behind my work and in terms of what I'm seeing, In my work, I'm realizing more and more that the, the approach has to depend on the organization I'm working with. So there's some organizations that say they're midway into that spectrum. You can very quickly start empowering a team and create a kind of bottom up effect. And actually you can do a really small things like changes in how we run meetings.
[00:11:14] Jon: how we make decisions, uh, how we open up information, how we set out our roles. These things can really quickly start to reshape how work gets done and how collaboratively it does. But in hierarchies, you know, increasingly what I'm going to is, well, actually the para, the paradigm in that system is hierarchy.
[00:11:33] Jon: And so trying to just do this other thing is, is typically not gonna work. And so creating a. A better hierarchy in a way, um, seems to be where, where it's at for me. And what that typically means is really focusing on quite deep team development. Um, and, you know, I'm sure you've had the same experience. A really great team starts to forget any formal leadership structure because the team's humming.
[00:12:00] Jon: And once that happened. That group is, particularly if it's a senior leadership team, it's typically not that far off going, actually, wouldn't it be great if all the other teams were working in this kind of way? And that's, that's the beginning of unpicking, the kind of pointless parts that you can see in bureaucracies or hierarchies that get. A bit over stifling sometimes.
[00:12:20] Dan: John? What are those pointless parts
[00:12:22] Jon: Well, I mean, the, the well that springs to mind is just waste. Um, and I get, I, I think to me there's probably two types of waste. There's a, a kind of. Functional side to, to waste. So that's, for example, going through, um, layers of management to get decisions done is a, is a classic one. When someone, the person closest to the work could probably make a better and faster decision because they have more information typically.
[00:12:44] Jon: Um, information flow going, you know, up to management teams who share with each other, who then share back with their teams seems futile when we have digital technology. And actually if you work in the open. What they call information velocity increases. So the speed at which information flows around the whole organization increases, which means we're more aligned, which means we need fewer meetings, uh, we have less disagreements, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:13:09] Jon: But the, the second form of waste is psychological. It's like the lack of engagement. You know, the, was it the, the Gallup study was, was saying that, um, 34% of a di of a disengaged employee's salary is wasted. I mean, that's just like. That's just phenomenal, isn't it? Um, and I think, you know, bad hierarchies are incredibly disengaging places.
[00:13:32] Jon: I'm not speaking for places where you have absolutely wonderful bosses, but I, I tend to say that a wonderful boss feels like a mentor or a coach typically. Anyway,
[00:13:40] Pia: I mean, there's a couple of interesting sort of situations that are happening that global engagement is slipping. we've become obsessed about measuring it, but we're not actually able to make it rise. and I think that's, that's. a key element, and I think that you talk about good bosses, but there's been also been poor investment post COVID in leadership development.
[00:14:02] Pia: So we, we, we, we had quite a, a fallow period where many leaders were just expected to deliver through their team but weren't being developed. And then with the onset of ai, there's actually been a raft of quite skilled leaders and managers with a lot of. Corporate knowledge and leadership wisdom who've, who've been taken out of the system and replaced by younger leaders who haven't had the development. So you've got, you've got a bit of a perfect storm brewing there.
[00:14:32] Dan: And, and I'd add to that, Peter, I mean, you know, I've talked about this, but the, the, we don't have statistics on it, but the number of people that we know, pretty senior leaders who leave an organization, they then become, they then set up their own consultancy. They're not going back into enterprise. It's really interesting how, how.
[00:14:50] Dan: I should probably do a little tot them up, but I can't remember a time in the last year where someone's left a position and they've gone on to another enterprise. They've set up their own consulting firm, so it's sort of ejecting these organisms. The organism is ejecting them somehow.
[00:15:06] Jon: Yeah, this is interesting. It sounds like you're seeing just way broader patterns that, that I've considered there, but I could totally see that, that there's maybe like a delayed effect of COVID sometimes as well. You also had like, um, you know, new generations entering the workplace and their first jobs were remote.
[00:15:24] Jon: And perhaps didn't get like the handholding, particularly as a lot of older leaders or more experienced leaders at the time didn't know how to work remotely and so didn't know how to lead well remotely. Um, so yeah, like a, a perfect storm. Feels, feels about right. PI do wor wonder. It's interesting what you say.
[00:15:42] Jon: Two points came to mind. One was about the how we measure it. Um, you know, it's, even I do it, I'm like constantly measuring engagement, um, because it feels like the hard thing that I can provide someone. and actually I'm surprised people can't make it go up 'cause. In my experience, it's not that hard to make it go up by 10% quite quickly in a team, 20% over, you know, six months or so for, for a, a poor performing team.
[00:16:06] Jon: So that's interesting. But I did wonder, 'cause you brought up AI earlier, Pia, what role that might be having? I mean, I notice my, in my own use of AI just subtly in my mind how I'm taking mental shortcuts that, uh, feel a bit like cheating. And if I'm honest or disengaging, like I'm, I'm self disengaging sometimes.
[00:16:27] Jon: 'cause this thing's thinking for me and it's like, for some things that's fine 'cause it's, you know, it's, it's robot work that I'd rather a robot did, but some, but when I'm using it for creative work or, or you know, thinking work, you know, I'd probably be better like. Without a machine, without really using my own brain. 'Cause actually that's where creativity flourishes and, and it's hard, but you know, that's a part of the engaging punk.
[00:16:53] Dan: I saw someone saying yesterday, definitely don't use AI to write a love poem. I mean, it's, it, you know, it, it's literally supposed to come with that, the, the all its inadequacies is your efforts, isn't it? So, yeah. And, and also there is research, isn't it? So our critical thinking is dropping as we use AI more, um, for sure.
[00:17:12] Dan: Jon, what, what you, you talked about the sort of good leader in this. I, I was, um, what is the role of leadership in this sort of. I, I know your, your view. I'm not gonna say a perfect organization or optimal organization. How does leadership look? And the reason I'm asking that is we have seen, um. We've seen in some of our clients a sort of reluctance to say, oh, you are the leader, because it's almost as if it's a sort of status thing. And that actually in some of them, we say, right, we're gonna have leaderless organization now. And, and, and, and it sort of leaves people. I, I was talking to a coach this morning who said, it's like the orchestra sort of just warming up, you know, tuning up, you know, sort of the nothing, so the dangerous things just don't happen and need someone to, even without status, to somehow take the role and responsibility of coordinating. Sorry, there's a long blah, blah, blah there, but what does leadership look like and what doesn't it look like as you move further towards away from hierarchy?
[00:18:10] Jon: Yeah, so I mean my, I've got a few beliefs here. One is simply that leadership is always emerging in a group. Put any group of humans together and you'll find, I don't know, the funny person gets more followers or the clever person gets more followers, or the quiet one, or the loud one. So leadership is gonna.
[00:18:28] Jon: Always emerge in groups. So there's a difference. This is in anarchism as opposed to anarchy. And there's a difference between, a legitimate leader and an illegitimate leader. So for example, in a group, a person could have a title that basically makes them the leader of that group, but no one's following them.
[00:18:46] Jon: So sure they've got the title that makes them a leader, but no one's following them. So they, so, so they can't be leading because.
[00:18:52] Jon: because leadership requires fellowship or membership. And so, and yet you can have groups where the opposite is true. You can have groups where someone is being followed because naturally they have some authority or they are trusted or they are competent or whatever it might be.
[00:19:08] Jon: And so that, that lead, that type of leadership, we need plenty of, I think what we don't need is the illegitimate. Type. Um, now do all groups need leadership? I'd say something, something like, yes. Um, I dunno if it's quite leadership, it might be authority. So that, that is the big chasm that people, um, confuse.
[00:19:27] Jon: So quite often when trying to create flatness, uh, for example, what we actually create is no one's clear on who does what, and that's incredibly disempowering. Right now, everyone is disempowered because I don't have the authority. To do anything without going around in some awful consensus circle, for ages, right?
[00:19:45] Jon: So, so what is clear, what is important I think, is to clarify who has authority for what. And one of those types of authority can start to look like management is typically more coaching or project management or agile coaching or whatever it might be. But it's someone who has authority over the process by which the group coordinates, right?
[00:20:06] Jon: They might facilitate, like right now. You are the host and you having that authority is making this conversation better for our listeners than if no one was hosting. Right? And the fact that you are doing that, I don't feel like you're my boss right now, or like I'm disempowered quite the opposite. I feel like now I can play my role way better because you've got this coordinative authority.
[00:20:27] Dan: Oh, that makes a lot of sense. I've actually written that down. Um, the having authority over how the group coordinates, and I guess if you put a group of people in a room, eventually you'd hope that they would agree that person, and then they would crack on and do it. But, um, yeah, that, that
[00:20:42] Jon: Yeah, I mean, I, I recommend every project you start, the first thing you do is as a group, you decide what's the purpose of the project, and the second is together you create a facilitator role and you are clear on the authority that facilitator has. So, for example, they might be responsible for facilitating sessions, for scheduling, for helping the group decide, um, ways of working and that that person's key.
[00:21:08] Jon: That doesn't mean they get to tell me how I do my job. That's, that's really different. Right.
[00:21:12] Dan: And ironically, you are being the facilitator in facilitating that conversation, aren't you? So there's a So Yeah, So yeah, it does get meta all of a sudden. Yeah, definitely. I look that, that makes, that's, that's a really, I think that'll be very helpful for our listener actually to, um, to hear that.
[00:21:27] Pia: Can I challenge that though? So what happens in a highly pressurized organization and team where people feel they've got to preserve their technical capacity and their jobs and their roles, and it ends up becoming a bit of a political mess.
[00:21:44] Jon: I'm not sure I see that all that much, but, um, but I, I can, I can, I can hazard a guess that it, it exists, um, based on your smile. Um, I, yeah, I mean, I don't know. Group dynamics are incredibly complex and, and I agree with you that when things get pressured, things change. Uh, I'd argue good teams get stronger, um, when that happens.
[00:22:04] Jon: Um, but there, I think the role of. Facilitation particularly is really key. Um, and it's not a controlling role. It's a, again, it's a coordinative role. It surfaces things. I mean, I love naming dynamics. You know, I love being on a call, uh, with several people, and there's two people that you sense there's conflicts beneath the surface, but it's not being said.
[00:22:26] Jon: and then to, to say like, I'm sensing we're not agreeing here. Can we just. Can, can I just get both your viewpoints on this thing? Um, or you sound, you sound upset by that. And when it comes up, typically I find it's, it's like it's, um, my Swedish colleagues call it a stinky fish. It's the idea that you, you went to, you bought, you went to the fish market, you bought some fish and you forgot it in your bag for a week, and it's just time to wear it.
[00:22:47] Jon: Um, but when you name dynamics, I find that typically the. Environment can change a lot. And now, and now what am I talking about? I'm basically talking about leadership, aren't I? It's just that it's just the, the dis, the d I'm just distinguishing between a title and leadership. Like leadership can come from the person who doesn't have the title, quite frankly. I, I think it's, um, yeah, it's just a control mechanism that's a bit simplistic to, to give those titles out.
[00:23:13] Dan: And do, is there a temp, do you think We, perhaps it's in the west or it maybe of quite an English thing even, but that we are reversed to sometimes taking that role because it looks, it looks like a sort of status role or a dominant role or something. Is is a, have you seen that where people just are, you know, just want to walk on eggshells a little bit, just be careful and don't wanna step into that space because it makes them so in some way it makes 'em look a bit better. And obviously that is a very un-English thing to do.
[00:23:44] Jon: I was about to say, there's the tall poppy syndrome, isn't it? As soon as you
[00:23:48] Dan: Yeah. That's
[00:23:49] Jon: the parapet people. yeah, I mean, I, here what we sounds like we're, we're getting into is psychological safety. Does someone feel safe to say that? Uh, I mean, I think there's a misunderstanding of psychological safety that we pin it on the group.
[00:24:01] Jon: So like, um, if the environment is safe, then people will speak up. And that might be true, but if someone's just really insecure, then maybe no matter how safe an environment, they still won't speak up because actually, like there's some confidence for that individual to, um, to still develop in their lives, um, or whatever.
[00:24:19] Jon: But that's safety for sure. If, if there's safety to challenge and actually, you know, in a, in a hierarchy. A good leader will ask the challenge and kind of socially reward that challenge, right? So regardless of what comes out as a challenge, they'll, the, the first thing they'll typically do is thank them and then probably, ideally acknowledge ways in which the challenge is possibly correct, or helpful or, or whatever.
[00:24:45] Jon: And that starts to build groups that can, you know, coordinate a lot better because things are in the open a lot more.
[00:24:53] Pia: And I think it's a, it's really important about, how the structure of the team is intentionally crafted. ' cause sometimes I think it's not intentionally crafted. It's, it's sort of like a bit of an idea and it's slammed. You, you slam people together. You still think you're bringing talent together.
[00:25:11] Pia: But it's not, it isn't, it isn't thought out as the construct of a team and what a team needs and what's going to be useful. And I think all of those things, you don't have to have a leader. You can have a facilitator, it can, um, be more autonomous. But if it's assumed that humans will just naturally be autonomous, uh, it could potentially be a bit of a disaster.
[00:25:37] Jon: Yeah. A amen to that. Totally agree. It's like, I mean, the, the one thing, the, the myth around autonomy is that it's chaos. What, what? That's just called chaos. Autonomy is when the system can, the system can self govern. How does it self govern? It typically replaces. what I call pointless hierarchy with processes and structures for the group to self govern.
[00:25:59] Jon: So upfront, I think we do this really poorly in most teams, is you need to define how you're gonna play this game together. So who has authority for what? Who has what, who can make what decisions? How do we make decisions? Where do we work? Um, how transparent do we work? Um, who coordinates us? you know, and there's loads of different ways to do this.
[00:26:20] Jon: The permutations are kind of endless, including like a really well run, you know, hierarchy. But when it's assumed, like you say Pia, that just seems like a void for loads of, um. Lack of clarity to emerge. Uh, yeah. And then politics can probably emerge. Um, and I think that happens in both types of teams.
[00:26:41] Jon: So yeah, the, the definitely I, the, the mistake I, um, I can imagine people make is wanting to create something that feels democratic, but it, and fluffy and lovely. But actually you're just in this lack of clarity conundrum, um, autonomy requires authority. People need to have authority to get stuff done,
[00:27:00] Dan: Um, um, Jon picking up on that thread, so where, where have you seen this go wrong? Someone with good intentions tries to move to be less hierarchical and ends up down a, down some alleys that aren't helpful.
[00:27:12] Jon: I mean, I can't, I I honestly, I'm not just saying this, I can't say I've seen it go wrong. Um, but I, but I can, I can see classic. Like patterns that are unhelpful. And they typically, um, are two sides of a spectrum. One is a leader who s is kind of, um, struggles to let go, right? Like, so, so, and, and that's, that's not that empowering to a team.
[00:27:37] Jon: And on the other end is a te a leader who thinks that letting go means doing nothing or neglecting. Um, and it doesn't, there's typically still some holding required. The holding might simply be. To repeat the vision or the values or to, um, a, a way of holding a group is to, uh, when, when someone comes to you and says, what do you think I should do?
[00:27:58] Jon: And is essentially asking permission from parents is to say, I, I dunno. Let's figure that out together. What do you think we should do? And to put it back to them. And, and so they're still playing a holding role there. It's kind of got a, a masculine feminine archetype going on, you know, an archetype, not stereotype.
[00:28:14] Jon: On the masculine side, that, that over dominance, that prevents people from reaching their potential. And on the, the extreme feminine side, that style, that, that just allows too much, that's too passive or something. And what we want is, is both for sure, we want some sort of middle where I'm holding this, this place, but I'm not taking responsibility away from you or dominating you.
[00:28:38] Jon: And I do see people stick to their ends of the spectrum and it can be hard to. Come to the middle. And I'd even say in the transition, it can be hard for both them and the team to know the new rules. And actually, I, I do encourage leaders to talk about it and say, Hey, I'm trying to empower people more.
[00:28:54] Jon: And that means I'm gonna, sometimes it's gonna be weird 'cause you're gonna ask me for permission like you normally have and I'm not gonna give it to you. I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you to make your own decision. And that's, it's gonna feel like I'm not helping you, but I, I promise that's me trying to help us do things differently and saying it.
[00:29:11] Jon: Clear. Clears it up. Right. Um, so yeah, I'd say the, the, the wrong, the thing I think we can do too much is too, let's say aggressive or assertive and too passive on the other end.
[00:29:22] Pia: Closing it down and not giving enough direction.
[00:29:24] Jon: Or, or actually saying, oh yeah, it's over to you. And then the team's like, oh, awesome though. This is so empowering. And then the moment you don't like the color of the font or the font size they've used. You jump in. And you've now just, you've now just blown it up. 'cause you, they feel like, oh, you say we've got mandate and autonomy, but actually, and that, that's, that's a burn that a team can struggle to, um, kind of adapt to.
[00:29:50] Jon: So I think you need to give safe amounts of autonomy at first. Like what's something that you'd be happy the team going with and not quite doing to the standard. That you are fully happy with. And then there's a learning process that hops off the back of it, but it's not dangerous, right? So you don't go and do it for a million quick decisions immediately. Um, you do it gradually. The, and you, you learn with the team how long that leash is until there's no leash fundamentally required at some point, because the trust is so high.
[00:30:17] Dan: I think that from what we've seen of particularly doing a lot of work, cross-functional teams now, I guess those. That transparency of what you're trying to do, where often you don't have any authority of the people in your team. You might even be sort of hierarchically junior to them. Imagine that's transparency is even more important.
[00:30:35] Dan: It's to really sort of say what, not just do what you're doing, but say what you're doing as well.
[00:30:39] Jon: Yeah, it's almost like narrating your process. I, yeah, I mean, in, in facilitation, I think it's sometimes called like a meta observation. So, um, I'll have this quite often where the group's doing work and they, they're, they're doing busy stuff and then I might pause to say, how does it feel in the room right now?
[00:30:57] Jon: Or, I'm noticing a dynamic where I think some are speaking more than others, or I feel like we're going down a rabbit hole. and then I'll, I'll ask everyone to briefly comment on the dynamic. So they might say, um, yeah, I'm thinking that too actually. Or someone else might go, I hadn't noticed. But, But, just the mentioning it, the group becomes, you know, we talk about self-awareness on the individual level, but the group becomes, like, there's a group awareness that develops, um, that is really regulating, um, for a system.
[00:31:25] Jon: And typically the, the boss just is noticing the patterns and then re. rejigging the boat, you know, but hear the group having an awareness of itself, it's, it can start to do that autonomously and that's quite beautiful.
[00:31:39] Jon: Yeah, And you, so you, you, you know, if you can help a group, if you can help individuals in the group, you know, we're all self-aware to the degree that we're self-aware. Um, that if you can make those meta comments that allow the group to notice its own patterns, um, that's really helpful. And a simple tool is at the end of the session, um, ask everyone to answer the question, how do you feel we work together? Or how could we work together better? and it, you know, it takes one, one minute to do that.
[00:32:05] Dan: Micro, nano retro even. Yeah,
[00:32:08] Jon: yeah, exactly. Nano retro. Great. Have you coined that? You should. You should keep that for sure.
[00:32:13] Dan: Um, so Jon, this just, you've, you've, you've talked a lot about, you've, you've given us some really practical tips. Where, where should someone start? I mean, literally, I'm thinking of quite a few of the leaders we're working with. The moment I think are struggling to find this balance. Whether they are, they want to move to be less hierarchical or very often they're put in a leadership position where. They don't have authority and they want to, but they want to build that you, I think both direction and, and autonomy. What, um, where would you say they should start? What's a good sort of baby step
[00:32:47] Jon: There's two things I'm like constantly surprised how big a lever they are or like how small a lever they are. Whichever way you wanna look at it, like you get bang for your buck. Um, one is transparency. Um, the digital version of which is to stop using emails, group chats, dms and private channels, and to work in public channels, um, that are themed.
[00:33:10] Jon: According to the work that you're doing. And that creates, um, so much alignment between people, that it's very, very freeing. Um, the se the second that I actually, I, I'm genuinely like, I'm actually heart warmed by how well this works, is to learn to facilitate meetings. Really, really effectively. And typically what that means is there's a facilitator and a format, and the format first encourages people to bring their own topics forward, and then for each topic, for that person to be facilitated.
[00:33:43] Jon: So I typically ask everyone who brings the topic, what is it you need from the group? I ask that out loud quite often. They don't know. They've just put a topic on the board and they themselves don't know what they, and, and actually you realize it's because we, we, we rambled to get our own clarity, right? Um, and once that person's clear and they say, oh, I think I just really need people's advice on this thing, it's really helpful to hear that. And then you can go, let's get you that advice. And so then the group starts pitching in, and then I'll go back to that person and say, based on the advice you got, what is it?
[00:34:12] Jon: What's your next step?
[00:34:14] Jon: And at this point they're, they're being coached publicly really. But the effect on the group, um, just a couple of months later is quite often that really every week that they normally have a team meeting that typically is quite dry or driven by one person, They're now get, They're now basically doing team development once a week. All whilst doing their work. Right. And so, yeah, I've, I've found that ability to facilitate meetings in that both participative but highly effective way to be quite transformative. And that's something the leaders in the perfect position to do. 'cause they're almost expected to take that role typically.
[00:34:51] Dan: be right. That facilitation is, is quite rare, but, uh, it's good to hear that it has a good bang for the buck
[00:34:56] Jon: Oh Yeah, it's it's, remarkable and it takes no extra time. It's ju it is just an hour a week of your existing team meeting. And then the beauty is if you then rotate. So then once, you know, once you've done it for a while and you set a culture, you pass that onto the next person. Um, soon enough you've got a team that really is starting to self govern.
[00:35:15] Jon: Um, and your role as a leader can, can go up in order of complexity. 'cause you can focus on far more strategic stuff now.
[00:35:22] Dan: Brilliant, brilliant. Um, Jon, final question for you. What, um, what media recommendation do you have for us? What are you reading, watching, listening to what's, uh.
[00:35:32] Jon: If I'm honest, I'm, I've really like, so I haven't read books from my domain that much in the last few years because I felt, I've felt like I read the same stuff a lot, and so I've tended to go to philosophy or uh, or psychology or, so I get a lot of. Stuff there, but at the moment I'm just generally loving the role.
[00:35:51] Jon: Fiction is now playing in my life. It never used to. I used to be like, I'm just here to frack knowledge out of some other person, you know? Um, but now fiction is ability to carry complex metaphors and stories. Um, it's, it's just seems to do me wonders and disconnect from work. I would recommend the book Lonesome Dove, uh, to anybody.
[00:36:14] Jon: It's a cowboy book, so there's some, you know. Caveat the, some brutality. Uh, but it's the, it is the first time I have, uh, walked around with a book in my hand because I, I like didn't wanna leave the characters behind. Right.
[00:36:27] Dan: Oh, wow. That's something.
[00:36:29] Jon: yeah. So I found that, uh, absolutely remarkable recently. Yeah. You guys got any?
[00:36:35] Dan: Well, mine of the, my book of the year, I think I've, I've been enjoying fiction. I've been doing all kinds of things, um, for myself this year. Trying to really read more, listen to more. One thing I've stopped doing, I stopped doing this in November last year for reasons that don't need to be mentioned, is I stopped listening to the news. Um, we've talked this about this on this podcast before that it's. News, I think Pia, you said that it's not the news, so it's given, opened up loads of space.
[00:36:59] Dan: One of the thing I'm doing is I'm listening to the rest is history. I'm listening to a lot of history now, which is, uh, just fascinating. But my book of the year is called The Ministry of Time, and it's sort of science fiction, which is not really my bag, but just as you say, just exploded in metaphors and ideas and has a beautiful, central character who is a model of non-toxic masculinity. I thought it's sort of, you know, it's sort of complicated topic, but who is, what's a good man? And he's, he's in this book,
[00:37:26] Jon: Yeah, we need, we need more, um, more great stories about, what's it called? Ministry of Time.
[00:37:32] Dan: Ministry of time. Yeah. Highly, highly recommended. Yeah. Enjoy. I think you might enjoy it. Let me know if you don't, or if you do. Pia, what, what about you?
[00:37:39] Pia: I would say, so the book I've really enjoyed reading is David Dader, the Superior man, which is all around a view of masculinity and it's it's quite an old, sometimes some, some dated, yeah, it's an amazing, and so Jon Weinland, um, has done an updated version of it from the core, and it's just a really, it's a beautiful. View of how masculinity can be going forward. So, and I think it's something that, yeah, for our kids and grandkids, that's the, that's a, that's a way forward. So, I mean, all those things you're talking about the masculine archetypes. It's not, it's, it's, it's, but I think also then
[00:38:25] Jon: Well, it's a very integrated, ver version of masculinity, isn't it?
[00:38:30] Pia: And then he is done another book called Dear, dear Lover, which is the feminine and then, and that, and really, they're not gen, they're not gender specific. It's about, it's about understanding the masculine and the feminine within within yourself. And I think Jon Weinland is really good at being able to make it. Non non-gender specific. Um, David data slips up a bit and it does look a little bit like men going, woo hoo, we're the superior race. Yeah, there is, there is a little bit that oh, gets a bit of the bar, but it's, but they've been really interesting reads, really interesting read, redefine the way that we see, see each other in many respects in our parts.
[00:39:10] Dan: Excellent. Good, good round of, I've made notes of both of those. So, uh, lonesome Dove and, um, the Superior Man, they're both on my, my reading list now and I'm sure they will be our listeners as well. Thank you. And thank you Jon, for coming back. Um, one fi, final, final, final question for you. Um, if people who should be contacting you, if they can contact you through the, through the, um, they'll, we'll let you, we'll have your contact details in the show notes. Who should be contacting you to get your help?
[00:39:38] Jon: I mean, the people we seem to be helping most are, um, CEOs, business owners of SMEs quite a lot of the time. These are people who feel the, the word we've heard repeatedly is stuck in the weeds. Um, you know, they feel like, um, I'm flooded with decisions. Everything comes back to me. I would love a lot more, uh, Headspace to do strategic work.
[00:39:59] Jon: And if the team runs itself, of course it gives you that. So we've had several clients. Now this is actually kind of by accident, tell us they've saved the CEO saved two days a week, once the team started changing their ways of working, which is phenomenal. So if that's the situation you're in, um, that's amazing.
[00:40:15] Jon: We've had some real, um, great projects recently that I can't, I can't. Talk about publicly yet, but with, um, CEOs of charities, quite large charities. Um, which I think makes sense because a lot of people in the voluntary sector, their intrinsic motivation is already there. That's why that, that's why they go there every day.
[00:40:32] Jon: And, and that's a, a beautiful thing. Um, a lack of profit motive seems to be helpful, um, sometimes. So. Um, so yes, if you're in either of those situations, um, or any leader stuck in the weeds for that matter, I would, I would love to chat.
[00:40:46] Dan: So just 98% of leaders
[00:40:48] Jon: Well,
[00:40:49] Dan: Perfect, perfect. All, all of you getting in contact with Jon his his new team?
[00:40:53] Jon: Like, and, and
[00:40:54] Dan: no, no, sorry. It, It, no, it wasn't meant in that sense at all. But, uh, but yeah, no, you're very, uh, you'd be very useful to any leader I think. So, um, um, with your new little team. Perfect. Jon, thank you so much again. Great to see you and all the best. Stay in touch.
[00:41:10] Pia: Great conversation.
[00:41:11] Jon: Thanks. Cheers, guys.
[00:41:15] Pia: I came across some, some data recently about the trust in managers. Um, I think this is from DDDI and that has that, that, that as a percentage has dropped from 46%, 29%. So that's the, that's the levels of trust in your manager. Um, so that's an interesting one because. I think there's been a, a lot of restructuring, transformation changes and um, and managers have had to go through a lot and I think they're under a lot of pressure.
[00:41:57] Pia: Um, but it also is symptomatic that the team may be pulling back, waiting for the leader to make all the decisions and to be responsible. And there isn't that. Yeah. Not that sense of all the team leaning in together to make its own success as such.
[00:42:18] Dan: In a, you know, there's a climate thing there, isn't there? The, the manager's often the sort of seen as the driver of change that isn't popular. I think there's a competence thing where the manager doesn't quite know what to, um, how to lead. Um, you know, we know that as, as you said in, uh, in the interview that the, I think, uh, leadership development has, uh, investment has dropped by 70% since COVID.
[00:42:39] Dan: So, um. Yeah, and there's a competence in the, in the people not really knowing what to expect of them. So yeah. So it's, it's either way. When you think that people don't leave organizations, they leave their leader, their manager, that's a, that's a bad sign for, for retention, isn't it?
[00:42:56] Pia: And, and I, I like the empowering nature of autonomous teams as, as Jon talks about it, because it really is giving voice and structure to the way that the team can run in order for their leader to take more time out to be able to, to work in a more strategic fashion. And that's very typical, is that leaders sometimes become uber doers and, and not, and not great leaders.
[00:43:26] Pia: So. As you work your way out the pipeline, you've gotta start shifting the way that you behave and do less doing and do more. Building the conditions for the team to be
[00:43:37] Pia: successful.
[00:43:38] Dan: Yeah, and I think that, I know we, we talked about it with Jon, but the, the, the thing that lingers for me is this, this, and what Jon calls this authority. to organize how the group coordinates, you know, that sort of piece. And I think that's an essential piece. And I, you know, where we've seen some organizations now saying, oh, we have, we have leaderless teams.
[00:44:01] Dan: They've gotta do more than that. It's okay if they don't want to sort of someone in a hierarchical role, but they've gotta have, someone's gotta take that role of saying, right. Okay. In the case of the orchestra tuning up, okay, everyone, let's come together. What are we gonna play today? We're gonna do this.
[00:44:19] Dan: Um, and just to, and I, I, it's a path for low performance, just to say, just coordinate yourselves. Without that role being set up first, there is that, that, that first piece, I think that those teams need to be given a direct, given a goal. And then that second piece as, as Jon says, is who's going to actually take responsibility for coordinating?
[00:44:43] Dan: And it is a responsibility. It's not something that should be sort of joyously put on your shoulders. I think that's, um, it's, it's a burden, but someone has to take that. Yeah.
[00:44:52] Pia: yeah, and I, I, it is a responsibility, and it's all about, as I say, creating those conditions for the team. And
[00:44:59] Pia: either the team takes that responsibility or the leader does.
[00:45:03] Dan: And as we know, if the, if the team's doing that, just totally flat democratic, if that consensus nightmare is going to happen, someone needs to even coordinating decision making, someone needs to do that.
[00:45:15] Dan: Because we've seen, haven't we sort of, we've seen literally for years decisions remaining unmade because everyone's just talking about it and no one can conclude it needs that, that thing. So I think what Jon does is to really define, just takes a whole view of this and has a very pragmatic approach, um, that I think will be really useful for our listeners.
[00:45:34] Dan: So, um, great to have him back on the show. And anyone who would like to speak to Jon, the, his details are in the show notes. I strongly recommend it. So, um, yeah, he's a, he's a, just a, a, a brilliant guy and has a huge impact on the organizations he works with.
[00:45:48] Dan: But that is it for this episode. We Not Meet is supported by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening and at squadify.net. And if you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. We Not Me, it's produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:46:08] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.