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The Still Human Podcast is for teachers, leaders and school staff navigating the realities of working in education today.
Hosted by Julie Liddell and part of Edwin People's wellbeing and culture offering, this podcast features thoughtful conversations with teachers, principals, psychologists, authors and education leaders exploring what matters most: leadership in schools, staff culture, workload, burnout and sustainability.
Each episode focuses on supporting the people behind the roles, because thriving educational communities start with looking after the humans within them.
Still Human delivers training, workshops and strategic support for staff wellbeing and thriving cultures. Edwin People provide strategic leadership and HR services that help schools and multi-academy trusts grow confidently with people-centred solutions. Both part of the Edwin group, we work together to positively impact the lives of young people.
Learn more at www.stillhuman.co.uk and www.edwinpeople.co.uk
[00:00:00] Julie: Welcome to the Still Human Podcast, conversations about leadership, culture, wellbeing, and how we create schools where people can truly thrive. I'm your host, Julie Liddell, and today I'm chatting to Alice Witherow. Alice is currently Chief executive Officer of the Chief Learning Trust in the store. She oversees a vibrant educational community, comprising of 18 schools spanning first, middle, and high schools.
[00:00:24] [00:00:25] Alongside a regional teaching school hub. Alice has dedicated her career to education working in the sector since 1992. Prior to taking the HEL Achievement Learning Trust, she served as the CEO of the Time Community Learning Trust. Her extensive background in school leadership includes 15 years as a primary head teacher at Benton Park Primary, as well as various leadership roles across the south of England.
[00:00:47] Alice is a passionate advocate for [00:00:50] system-wide educational excellence, previously supporting schools facing challenging circumstances, and serving on safeguarding children's boards. Alice is a firm believer that structural cooperation, shared vision and deep collaboration are critical to school success.
[00:01:05] Under her leadership, the Deviate Learning Trust placed a heavy emphasis on delivering excellent student outcomes whilst deeply invested in workforce wellbeing and a [00:01:15] supportive, compassionate culture for staff and pupils alike. This episode was recorded just before Alice retired as CEO, and I take the opportunity to use it as a little bit of a retrospective, asking Alice about what she's learned about leadership, staff wellbeing, and in her experience, what we need to do to cultivate thriving cultures.
[00:01:35] In talking about things, we also managed to discuss toilets, neighbours, the [00:01:40] Australian version, not those who live next door and why. It's always wise to remember that we don't live in cupboards. Enjoy.
[00:01:47] Alice, welcome!. It's lovely to have you here this morning.
[00:01:57] Alice: Oh, thank you Julie. It's really lovely to be here. It's really nice to be asked to have to see.
[00:02:01] Julie: So, well, we've talked about it for a while, haven't we? And you know, but [00:02:05] I'm really quite pleased that we've waited until now. Because it feels a little bit like, you know, for context, it's your final weeks as CEO and it feels a little bit like, um, like a celebration or a retrospection.
[00:02:18] And then I was thinking it's a bit like, this is your life, isn't it? And, and then I also went down the line of, do you know, like the audience with Victoria won?
[00:02:26] Alice: Oh yeah.
[00:02:27] I felt like
[00:02:27] that, that, that, that would be an interesting [00:02:30] podcast. Who would be in your audience or who would come outta the book? I think that would be interesting.
[00:02:34] But I, I think when you do finish quite a big job or an end point. It gives you the opportunity also to reflect on those people along the way as well who have shaped where you've got to. And I've certainly been doing quite a lot of that recently as well. So, yeah, no, I think this is a good point to be doing this too, Julie.
[00:02:51] Julie: Lovely. Yeah, I definitely think we, we should do something around an audience [00:02:55] with, so I'm really looking forward to hearing kind of your reflections and your wisdom, the lessons that you've learned a little bit around kind of your role as leader, but also kind of a reflection around education and, and what's changed over those years.
[00:03:09] So I'd like, um, if it's okay, Alice, just to take you back to the beginning, what sort of first drew you into education and, and how did your career pan out?
[00:03:17] Alice: So one of the things I often [00:03:20] reflect is, oh, here I am in charge of quite a large organisation, a lot of people big and small, and I, I, I certainly never set out to be in charge of anything actually.
[00:03:30] Um, I did a degree in English at Glasby University, and I finished that in 1991, and I didn't really know what else to do, but my mother was a teacher, so I had been brought up by teachers. You know, I, I knew a lot about education and during my time at university, I'd [00:03:45] volunteered in a special school, uh, with profoundly disabled children.
[00:03:48] And I had loved it. I absolutely loved working in those classrooms, and I found it hugely rewarding even though it was a couple of hours a week. Um, and that kind of drew me into thinking perhaps teaching would be something that would be for me. And when I did become a teacher, I kind of knew it was right, even though I just cried every day in my first year as an NQT.[00:04:10]
[00:04:10] And I, I tell Nq ts that so they feel better because I, I think it's really important that they understand that everybody feels like that. At the start, I had to make a decision for me about whether I did primary education or secondary, but with an English degree. Uh, I recognised I would find it very challenging to try and teach Shakespeare to teenagers who might just not be ready to appreciate the Bard.
[00:04:30] And I loved Shakespeare, so I made a choice real, really, uh, quite a [00:04:35] certain choice to go into primary education and, uh, that book, um, about finding your element. So I think I found my element as a teacher, but then as a head teacher. So when I became a head teacher, I kind of knew I was there in my element.
[00:04:50] This was kind of where I meant to be. It felt right. It felt right emotionally, even though there were lots of terrifying moments in being ahead. I, I, I felt right the way through that job that I was in the right place at the [00:05:00] right time. So I, I don't know if I believe things are meant to be, but I, I think for me, it, it has felt right all the way through and I feel immensely proud.
[00:05:09] To have been a teacher and to have touched so many lives. I mean, what a privilege to have been able to touch lives like that. Um, and I still like being in classrooms in a recent office. I jumped in to cover a year four class. I mean, I was fairly terrible. It has to be said, you know, I was fortunately, no inspectors were watching me.[00:05:25]
[00:05:25] Uh, but I still loved it. You know, I just loved that interaction with children. It was fabulous. So, uh, I have never forgotten the buzz of teaching a great lesson because there's nothing more rewarding. And you watch kids just, that, just all comes together, that, and those don't happen all the time.
[00:05:40] Teaching's not like that every day. You don't get that every day. But tho those moments where lessons really come together, it is such a fabulous experience and I think people forget how [00:05:50] creative kind of education is. Um, so those were the kind of things that drew me in. And then I, I went to work and actually I, I trained in Glasgow, but went to work in the south of England with two of my colleagues, two students that I'd trained with.
[00:06:03] And we were very naive, of course, Because we were 21, so we knew everything. And my mother said, you know, if they want you that badly, they might not be in great shape. But we just dismissed that because we were gonna the south of England. We would just have [00:06:15] fun there and it would be great. And on my first day in, in a cla reception classroom, this child came up to me and said to me, I hate you, you, and I'll let you put the expletive in.
[00:06:26] And I was really slightly horrified as he was five. And the school was an area of very high deprivation. Uh, it was quite mad, but the kids were just incredible. And partly Because I'd worked in a pub in Glasgow. And I also give this [00:06:40] piece of advice, if you'd worked in a pub, you can, you can do it because you have good behaviour management schools if you've worked in a pub, because people who are quite intoxicated are very like small children.
[00:06:48] So they need to be loved a bit. They need to be listened to. They're highly repetitive. They need a very firm boundary. And if you can do that in a pub, you can kind of do it in, in teaching too. So that first school, uh, would would've been in what is now special measures. And it, it was quite chaotic and quite crazy.
[00:07:04] [00:07:05] And at that time, the leadership of the school was quite weak. But halfway through the year, just as I was preparing to return to Scotland, because it was so awful, uh, a new head came in and he was inspirational actually. And he, he really changed and shaped my career. And one of his mantras was, my job is to make sure those people who come through the door want to be here.
[00:07:25] And he wasn't talking about the children, he was talking about the staff. And that was entirely what [00:07:30] he understood was that that was his job is to keep the staff together. Because if he didn't keep them together, they couldn't help the children. And one of the other things that he did very early on to me was I, I, I was of course instantly moved from teaching a year one class of teaching the really challenging year six class, because that's what you do with people that they look like behaviour.
[00:07:48] You give 'em year six. And uh, they were really challenging class of children, but they were also, they came from backgrounds that were [00:07:55] really deprived and they had a lot of trauma, huge difficulties, lots of social work involvement. And, um, he just said to me, if you ever need me, I will come and help you.
[00:08:04] And that was all I needed to hear. I didn't need to call him very often, but I knew he was there. I knew he had my back. I knew he would help me. Uh, and those things have, that stayed with me in leadership very much, is that that's how you have to be as a leader. Um, and your job is to develop people, little people.
[00:08:18] And the big people, and I [00:08:20] kind of have that mantra. That's what we do in education. We develop little people and we develop the big people too. And, and I think those things have kind of stayed with me right the way through. So right back to those that that kind of end of my first year in education, working with him really shaped kind of the way my career was and, and how I have become a leader.
[00:08:38] And I often think that when I look at leaders who are struggling or finding it hard, if you don't have a good mentor [00:08:45] somewhere along the line, everything is more difficult. And I was incredibly lucky to work with him because he taught me how to lead people and, and how important that aspect of the job was.
[00:08:54] That's way more important than learning about how to do write a school development planners. Those things can be taught easily, but how you interact with people and how you develop people and how you manage and make environments right for them, that's, you have to learn how important that is. And you, you [00:09:10] can only really learn that from somebody who models that for you and I, and I think that I was just really, really lucky to, to learn from him.
[00:09:16] So really nice. Good. I had a great start. It was really, really tough, uh, and quite crazy. But, uh, and there were donkeys in the playground. It was that kinda school where donkeys just wandered into the playground. Um, but that was a wonder. It was a wonderful start. So great, great happy memories of that time.
[00:09:32] Julie: Love that Alice. Um, shameless pl, but [00:09:35] I've just contributed to, um, a chapter in a book, um, for early career teachers edited by the wonderful, uh, Mackel and Adrian Bethune. But I really feel like you should have contributed to that book as well to say, you know, that you cried every single day of your first year.
[00:09:50] There was donkeys in the playground and you got your best training around drunk people. I mean, that's just great advice.
[00:09:57] Alice: Yeah, absolutely. Those are the things people do [00:10:00] need to know. You've got this. If you've gone work in a pub and then go into teaching, you'll be fine. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:10:05] Julie: I love that. Um, and yeah, so I suppose when you went from headship to CEO then and thinking you kind of, there was, would I be right in thinking there is a little bit more disconnect from the children?
[00:10:16] Because obviously you talking about the children and your absolute entire career kind of shines through there, but did you find that a little bit difficult or [00:10:25] is it not as big as I'm thinking it is.
[00:10:26] Alice: No, no. I think that has been one of the big challenges for me. Uh, not actually, not just children, um, also staff.
[00:10:35] So when I became a CEO, you make an assumption that head teachers will be your people, but actually head teachers have their own people. They've got their own schools. So they're your people, but they're not your people at the same time. And the central team become your people. But the central teams in um, academy [00:10:50] trusts do things like finance and hr.
[00:10:52] They're not necessarily connected to pedagogy in, in classrooms. So for a long time, kind of think it took me a little while to find my tribe. And one of the things I like in education is the sense of community and family that you get in schools. I think that's really important. So it took me quite a long time to become a CEO to recognise that this was quite a different job.
[00:11:11] And that I was quite far removed from classrooms, although [00:11:15] I still would find myself going into classrooms from right around schools. Because that's the bit that really interests me is being with children. But most definitely, that was harder and, and you can become quite disconnected to what that lived experience is like for practitioners.
[00:11:29] And I always try to think through, so what would this actually be like for a practitioner? Be they a head teacher, be they a teacher, be they a caretaker? And it's really important for [00:11:40] me to have relationships with all those kind of different stakeholders where at all possible. But yes, most definitely, I have found myself quite far removed from children.
[00:11:49] And, and that has made the job for me more challenging. Because you have to keep that. And what about children all the time in every decision you make. And what about children? How will this be better for the children? And that should be your driver. Uh, and that's easier when you're actually in the school building, you know, working alongside them, I think.
[00:12:04] Julie: [00:12:05] Yeah. Yeah. And that I've thought was interesting what you said as well about that kind of mentorship that you received along your journey, isn't it? It isn't just about your NPQH or your, you know, your, your, your qualifications actually. It's about seeing what the best way forward is. And, and, and I think that's really interesting that that head, you know, my job is that I want people to come to, to work.
[00:12:28] I want people to be [00:12:30] here. And, and that's that role. And I would say from my observation, that is probably absolutely what you've taken on board as you've gone through your career.
[00:12:38] Alice: Yeah, I, I definitely think so. And I think staff who work for me as a head would also say that, and to some extent I think in the trust as well.
[00:12:45] Although trusts I think have different kinda microcultures within the bigger culture of a trust. But I, I I, I do think people recognise that for me as a leader, people are [00:12:55] incredibly important. And that, that, that kind of flourishing is, is incredibly important. I it is the same thing. You cannot work with children in any guise unless you are able to look after yourself.
[00:13:08] And you can only look after yourself if you're in an organisation that looks out for you too. So, so all those things are, they're highly interconnected and I think it means through things that your work, we are a lot more aware of them than we were at the beginning. [00:13:20] So in 1992, nobody was, nobody really thought about staff wellbeing.
[00:13:23] It wasn't something that was ever considered, but that head was considering it just in an organic way. He knew that was really important. He understood the importance of that. He knew that laughing in the staff room was really important. In fact, one of the things that he, we used to say in that school that our school model was swearing and caring because everybody would be swearing in the staff room because it was quite high stress.[00:13:45]
[00:13:45] But we all cared a huge amount about the children and, and that those kind of things keep you together and those things are really important. So, yeah, definitely.
[00:13:52] Julie: I'm gonna jump to another question and then I probably wanna go back on myself, but if we just talk about kind of staff for a moment and the importance of staff wellbeing and there's much more onus on it now, and you are saying, you know, back in 1991 there was somebody doing it organically and naturally, which is in part kind [00:14:10] of probably to his own experience, but we kind of, the way that we talk about it now, there is that onus.
[00:14:16] It's kind of, we're trying to sort of measure it and it, it's, it's much more front and centre and we're having much more, many more conversations around it. Do you think we've made any meaningful progress around staff wellbeing? Do you think that we're talking about it more because we understand how [00:14:35] important it is or has the, the role of educators become more demanding so that we need to talk about it?
[00:14:43] That's about three questions in one there, but they were the things that were bouncing around my head. Go where you will with that Alice.
[00:14:50] Alice: I think starting with is it harder? Yes. I think there are things that are much harder. So I think schools, so back in 19 92, 1 of my big issues was that we as a [00:15:00] school dealt with so much safeguarding, uh, and were completely unrecognised for a role in that it actually led me in 1999 to work for the N-S-B-C-C for a year.
[00:15:09] Well, as safeguarding became a sort of national issue where people understood that stood that schools had a huge role in the safeguarding of children. And in that sense, i, I, I think, uh, things have got better because I think that is much more recognised. I don't think it's [00:15:25] completely there. And I notice that education is still not recognised as one of the agencies.
[00:15:28] And actually we are a main safeguarding agency. We see children more than anybody else. So actually why would you not have schools at the table? It seems to me counterproductive actually not to involve schools. And so I think from my perspective in the nineties when I was working in that school, I had to think a great deal about emotional wellbeing because actually I was [00:15:50] often the only adult who was stable in those children's life.
[00:15:53] You know, I was the somebody who could help them. And, and for because of those reasons, I think wellbeing was something that was really important to me. Now I think we're much more aware of that and, and now I'm really delighted. One of the things I am delighted about as a CEO at the end of my, uh, time is that we've just introduced supervision for all our head teachers and for DSLs because for, I have been arguing about this [00:16:15] since the nineties, saying that supervision should be built in for people that in DSL positions, because actually schools are often the people that disclosures come to, they, they see kids in really traumatic circumstances.
[00:16:27] They see families in traumatic circumstances. People need the opportunity to offload. So that kind of hardcore side of wellbeing, I think really has become something that, that is better thought about, uh, and [00:16:40] is becoming more mainstream. So lots of, um, trusts are bringing in supervision for their staff and, and thinking about it.
[00:16:45] And it was interesting, I was talking to our, our trustees who came from the health service and they were absolutely aghast that supervision wasn't part and parcel of what we did. And so therefore, yes, I, I think there's been a genuine recognition and I think DFE have recognised a national level. I think the danger is it can become formulaic and it gets ticked [00:17:05] off as a box.
[00:17:06] And then I think the belonging stuff that's now in the white paper, great. Because belonging is a key, key part of wellbeing. So if you belong somewhere and if you're included and if you have agency, you will feel better about yourself at work. And that's to now be measured in some way. I'm really interested to see how that comes about.
[00:17:23] It's not a bad thing to try and measure it, but a Google survey does not necessarily measure belonging. And there's a real [00:17:30] danger that that becomes what measures belonging, um, or measures wellbeing. We fill in a form and we say we're fine. And, and I think that's a real challenge. So interestingly for me, the wellbeing stuff in the nineties, I went on a course with a woman called Jenny Mosley, who her entire work is about circle time and she was a drama teacher looking at therapeutic input into schools in, in secondaries and, [00:17:55] but also in primaries.
[00:17:56] So she has a sort of full school behaviour system and she was the first course I can remember going on the course. It's like also these people you meet in your career who have a huge impact on you. It was about, maybe about 1995, and I had to go to the London Institute for very exciting, got to go from day into London India course was so exciting.
[00:18:13] And, uh, she spent the whole morning talking about the importance of self and your own self [00:18:20] wellbeing. And she has a model where she's got five wells and your physical, creative, spiritual wells and you, she talks about how you fill them up and, and, and I, I'd never been on a course where anybody thought about my own wellbeing or made me think about my responsibility to my own wellbeing.
[00:18:35] And I, she was way ahead of her time because now that stuff is now talked about with much more understanding. But in the nineties nobody talked about that. And it, it led me to become a circle time trainer. And I, [00:18:45] I was always very excited about that kind of work. But the work always started with staff wellbeing because if you're not well in yourself, you will not be able to support kids in schools.
[00:18:57] But it's harder now because some of the kids in schools, I mean, I was dealing with some really challenging children in the nineties, but the expectations of what I was able to do were not as high as they are now. Whereas now expectation is [00:19:10] incredibly high and reasonable. Adjustments that phrase that we hear all the time, they're very hard to define.
[00:19:15] And we are asking schools to, to have to adjust constantly. And of course schools, I mean my mantra as a head teacher when they said to me was, can this child come to your school? I like, yeah, of course can. And then I would think, okay, how are we gonna problem solve to make sure we can include this child?
[00:19:28] How are we gonna manage? But not all schools are in that position and not all schools are ready to manage and [00:19:35] cope and, and and do that. And there's no recognition of that. Instead there's just judgement . And I think that makes education much, much more difficult. When I was working in the nineties, yes there was judgement , but it was much, much lower key.
[00:19:45] I mean, I, I think the school would've been in some kind of category, but I was totally unaware of that as an NQT. Whereas now if you're in a category everybody knows about, it's all that people talk about. So judgement has become much harder end and I think that's not been good for wellbeing. [00:20:00] And you know, we have a national system of inspection in which a teacher head teacher took her own life.
[00:20:05] There's something wrong with a system that does that. And this is not about me seeing schools should not be held to account. It should be held to account this is public money, but the way we are doing it is not helping wellbeing. Uh, so I think, I dunno if I've answered a few questions there Julie. I think I've gone kind of round and about.
[00:20:21] I think it is more difficult and I think we recognise [00:20:25] wellbeing more, but I think some of the systems we put in place are maybe not always helping staff wellbeing in the way that we should be. And, and it makes me really sad when I go into schools and all they talk about is the next off inspection.
[00:20:37] Because that is not what schools should be talking about. They should be talking about the joy of learning with children and a lot of the time they're not. And I think that's quite sad.
[00:20:44] Julie: Yeah, it's kind of, again, because I can't remember what questions I asked you, Alice, or where we were going with that.
[00:20:49] [00:20:50] There's just so much in there. But like, you know, I was thinking that, you know, it is that accountability in the expectations and, and yes, we're talking about staff wellbeing, but that has to be some joined up thinking, doesn't it, on a systemic level. On a self level, on a leadership level, can't be a, a standalone kind of responsibility, isn't it?
[00:21:14] And that's [00:21:15] maybe where we're not, we are not there, are we?
[00:21:16] Alice: No. And I think, I don't think that's just about wellbeing. There's a lot of standalone responsibility systemically. And I, I think this about, uh, working with social care, working with local authorities, you know, as a mat leader. I mean, local authorities and mats traditionally don't get on.
[00:21:30] And I was like, why is that? We are all here for children. All these children that I serve are Northumberland children. So I, I have made it my business to [00:21:40] make sure we all work together because I think that's really important. But there's a lot of barriers between that. And I think that that challenge is, is not good for children, therefore it's not good for staff wellbeing as well.
[00:21:51] So often the barriers can be, you meet them in the system and that, that's quite challenging, I think too.
[00:21:56] Julie: So this idea then, if we come back to this idea of kind of measurable, you said about, you know, the work around belonging, which I agree with you, is kind of inherently all of us just wanna feel [00:22:05] safe, don't we Like, and safe comes from feeling like we belong Totally
[00:22:08] Alice: human
[00:22:08] Julie: it.
[00:22:09] And in our work, we talk a lot about kind of building thriving cultures where west half do feel safe and belong. And you visited, I imagine, and worked alongside so many schools over your career, you know, taking it out of the measurable. What does it feel, how do you feel when you go into a school where those thriving cultures are?
[00:22:28] If we, if we're saying that it's [00:22:30] really difficult to measure, what might that feel like? What might you see? What might you notice? How would you get a sense that actually things were going well here?
[00:22:39] Alice: One of the things I used to say when I, I did circle time training was you can tell a lot about a school by it's toilets.
[00:22:46] And actually staff toilets tell you a lot about a school. And it isn't necessarily whether they've been refurbished or not, but it's the things that people leave in the toilets to [00:22:55] help other people. And I mean that in the nicest possible way. You know, it's the sanitary towels, it's the hand cream, it's the, that we've thought about staff.
[00:23:02] It's sometimes a poster that says, you know, menopause awareness or breast awareness. There's a, there's thought being put into that. So that's one of the, um, things I would be looking for. How good are your staff toilets? Not, are they like the best toilets ever because at all schools are struggling with money.
[00:23:19] But has [00:23:20] somebody thought about that? And when you go into a staff room, is the coffee available? So one of the things when I became a head was there was a coffee machine when I became the head. And I was, isn't it in primary school? That was really unusual. Maybe more normal in secondary, but this was also, uh, 2005.
[00:23:36] So I had never seen a coffee machine in a staff room. Not only was a coffee machine, you had to find a 20 pence piece to get a cup of coffee. And I was just like, [00:23:45] why would you do that? Why would people who are really pressed for time, Because in a staff room in a principal, you get 10 minutes while everyone's out play to get your cup of coffee.
[00:23:54] So we're just making everything more difficult and you have to pay 20 pence. So that kind of thing matters. You know, for me is free tea and coffee because actually the school can take that burden because that makes a big difference. Because it's not, that's where people snap. [00:24:10] It's the coffee cup they can't find.
[00:24:12] I also don't like people to have their own mugs. I think it's better just to have mugs so that everybody can use a mug. So you can tell a lot by that kind of staff room. Cultures really, really important. And is there a staff room where people actually go into. So if there's not a staff room that people go into, Hmm.
[00:24:28] That, that's a challenge already. Because we're not having any social space for staff to meet and chat because actually what builds [00:24:35] culture is relationships. So if you do not systemically ensure that relationships can build, then you'll not be able to get that kind of thriving culture. So things like nights out are important.
[00:24:45] Now it is important to have a social committee in your school who invite everyone. And when I say everyone, I mean everyone, the cleaners, the caretaker, everyone gets invited now and not everyone will come and that's okay. But everyone gets invited and that's really, really [00:25:00] important. Even that really annoying member of staff who's in poisoned corner.
[00:25:03] And it's just winding everyone up. They get invited to because actually those things are important. So I think that's really important. So it's all these kind of cultural carriers. And it's interesting. So I I, I know somebody who was a parent in the school where I was ahead and he said he sent his child to the school because when he looked at the photographs of the staff on the information boards, they came into the school.
[00:25:23] It was all just mixed up. [00:25:25] And of course Alice really deliberate. Because in no way did I want someone to go. And there's Alice, she's the head teacher and this is how the structure works. This is her senior team. And right down here, right at the bottom here are the cleaners. Because for me that that, what does that say?
[00:25:38] That says head teachers are more important than everybody else. And so my mantra to staff is always the most important people in this building right now are the cleaners. Because if we do not have cleaners, we don't open the building. So everyone needs to remember [00:25:50] that. And I think getting those kind of messages out are really important.
[00:25:53] So if you go into a school where a culture is strong, you will feel all that cleaners will talk to you in the corridor because they will be valued members of staff. So they will have something to say. And, and this is a little anecdote, in my first inspection, one of the cleaners in the school went running up to tell the inspector about this head teacher that had come and how good she was.
[00:26:12] Because she had voiced, she felt it was [00:26:15] okay for her to stop the inspector and just tell her, you know, and she'd got the brass out to polish the, uh, stairwell because it was really important. Those things, you have to hold onto those things. That's really important that that's people who feel like they belong.
[00:26:27] That's how you measure belonging. Do your cleaners feel they can come and tell you something? And I think those kind of things, I, that's what I would be looking for in a school. Those little cultural carriers that tell you. And I did a [00:26:40] course years ago about, um, space and how space is used, which is really interest with an architect.
[00:26:45] And he had this whole thing, if you want people to work, you know, in a space so often space is really problematic in all schools, isn't it? So you've rather got too much or too little. Uh, and he said if you've got a staff room and you want people to work in that staff room, Because it's also their PPA space, make it like a cafe.
[00:27:00] So in a mad and crazy move, I decided over the summer holidays that I would turn for, this was an [00:27:05] old, it was an old classroom that that was being used in the staff room into something like a space that was a cafe. And I had the whole staff room painted raspberry pink, and it was a bit mad, uh, but it totally dictated that this was not a classroom anymore.
[00:27:19] This was a room that was a social space, so we didn't have books and organ and things like that. They were put away, so, so that you could relax in the space. Now, I don't know that the raspberry pink actually made everybody relax. I think some people [00:27:30] had a fairly strong reaction to it and felt it was a ridiculous colour.
[00:27:32] And in some ways it was. But I, I, it also, it was something that was funny. It was something that made us laugh. It was something that we shared. Um, the other thing that we kinda shared was that we had a spare classroom for a while, and it was always referred to the spare classroom.
[00:27:48] Julie: I always felt that wasn't a good thing for school to look like at a
[00:27:51] Alice: spare classroom.
[00:27:52] So instead, I called it room 10. And I wanted to [00:27:55] see how long it would take till everybody called it room 10. And it took about three minutes until everybody called it room 10. Uh, and the funny thing was that room 10 moved each year because the next year different room was spare, but we just called that room 10 as well.
[00:28:09] And this is when nobody had a number on it. And none of that matters. It's all irrelevant what you do, but it was something that really shared that was fun and light and comedy and those things [00:28:20] can't be undressed many at those schools, I don't think.
[00:28:21] Julie: Love that. I love your, I love your turn of phrase there, um, Alice of cultural carriers.
[00:28:26] It's, it's not a term that I, it like would've used. I think that's a gorgeous, and that's kind of when you're kind of building up, when you talk about thriving cultures, you, you're talking about building the foundations of what it feels like to work here, aren't you? And, and every single day people nip into the loo nip to try and get a [00:28:45] drink.
[00:28:45] You know, all of those things are what it feels like to work here. Um, and you know, so, so I love all of that. And, and interestingly, I'm working with a lot of schools, um, at the minute in North hindsight. And, um, I've had the pleasure of going to those schools and they are the things that I'm looking for and seeing like, where are you going with that?
[00:29:05] And, and one school, they've transformed their staff room, but the staff have done it. The [00:29:10] staff when walking around doing a culture walk, they, they were, they were sent around to kind of say, what does it feel like when you walk in here? And all of them agreed, it felt rubbish. And so they've done the same thing.
[00:29:21] And there's cushions and there's sofas and it feels like actually a really nice cafe space, but there's no raspberry pink walls, so Oh well they've gone a bit minimalist. Yeah, it's a bit Nordic
[00:29:34] Alice: to be honest. Once [00:29:35] we moved the Stafford, we did eventually move and it was much more minimalist, the Stafford, much moreane than they got in the pink walls.
[00:29:39] But, you know, that was okay. I mean, the other thing that we always did at Christmas, we always did a Christmas competition. Those, those kind of things really matter Because they make people laugh and that's what creates a sense of belonging. Yeah. How we taught weeding was really, really important too.
[00:29:53] Cannot be underestimated. But the Christmas competition was one of my favourite things of the year, and I took personal ownership of running that [00:30:00] competition. That was all part of it, you know, that was what made me feel great as a head. But it made the staff feel really like part of something as well.
[00:30:06] They always loved the Christmas competitions.
[00:30:08] Julie: Tell me about your Christmas competition. What was involved? Gimme an example. So we
[00:30:11] Alice: did all sorts of different things. I think the first year we did, uh, your fantasy Santa, and you had to bring a photograph of a, your fantasy Santa, everybody had to guess who it was.
[00:30:19] And that was quite good fun. But as the years went on, I remember there was a year where we didn't have enough cutlery. So you'll, you'll [00:30:25] know you were a teacher, there's never enough cutlery in a staff room.
[00:30:28] Julie: Teaspoons,
[00:30:28] Alice: teaspoons go missing, et cetera, et cetera. So one of the teachers decided that that year you would have to pimp a fork.
[00:30:35] Or pimp a spoon, maybe, I can't remember which one it was. And she, you had to pay a pound and everybody got the fork or spoon and they had to pimp it up and stick it, you know, for, with a Christmas theme in some kind of display in the staff room. And then the winner won a prize. [00:30:50] They won half the money and half the money went to charity.
[00:30:52] So, so it was those kind of things. And every year we sat down for Christmas dinner together, the day of Christmas dinner, and we all gave out gifts, you know, the, the kind of secret Santa stuff. And there was one year we had two French students who'd come on a of exchange to do, to look at teaching in England.
[00:31:08] And they joined us at that point in the year. And I think what they took away was the Christmas competition and the fact that you [00:31:15] all ate Christmas, the room together and shared presents. Uh, I don't think they learned much about teaching and learning at all, but that, that was, that was kind of what they had, uh, learned, you know, from our, from our experience.
[00:31:24] But. It is. Those things, those things really do matter. Um, and I have to say in a trust, that's much harder. It's much harder in the right job I'm in now to have influence over that kind of thing. Those things are more difficult. And I think, uh, if I had my time again, I would spend more [00:31:40] time thinking about those things.
[00:31:41] I kind of trust level. How, how can you do some of that in a trust? Um, I, I don't think I have, that's one of the things that I'd not regret. But if I had my time again, I think I would spend more time thinking about some of that. Uh, and, and how the trust could facilitate some of that in school as well. I mean, we do pay for everyone's Christmas lunch Because I think those things are, you know, important.
[00:32:02] But it is, it's harder at scale I think. [00:32:05]
[00:32:05] Julie: I think it's harder at scale and I think it, it is more difficult. But I suppose that's where you've got your leaders and, and it's about kind of some education for the leaders around that creation of culture, isn't it? As much as it's about empowering those heads to understand that those things matter and then maybe's for them to find their own way, isn't it?
[00:32:24] You know?
[00:32:25] Alice: Yeah. Because not, it's not ev it isn't everybody's way. It depends who you are as a [00:32:30] person and that's okay too. You need different types of leaders. That's exactly what you need.
[00:32:34] Julie: Yeah. Yeah. And to, to find there where, um, but I did like what you also said there about was that kind of flattened hierarchy structure.
[00:32:41] And, and we know that, um, all the research as we've already said about feeling safe and belonging, but actually psychological safety, kind of one of the things there is making sure there are opportunities where the, where the hierarchy feels flattened [00:32:55] because of that's when you get that voice, isn't it?
[00:32:56] And you empower those cleaners to be able to chase after the off offset inspector to be able to say, um, and I love that the, there was a really quite simple way on the website of doing that, of just kind of mixing, because I think people do struggle because you know of, of how to do that in a, in a way that it doesn't devalue their position as leader.
[00:33:17] Alice: Totally. And it's actually about, it's not about saying, I [00:33:20] want to take the hard decisions and, and I won't take the flack and I will, I am responsible. But that doesn't mean that you are disempowered. You are part of this team. We're all in this together. And actually what I used to say was, so I am just paid to be in charge here, but I'm just doing a job same as you.
[00:33:34] And my job is not any different. It's just a job. And I think trying to think about it like that and, and being acutely aware of that as a leader. So I remember when I became a head and to some extent sometimes as a CEO [00:33:45] as well, people are incredibly nice to me. And for a long time I was like, this people are really nice in this school.
[00:33:50] And then I realised they were really nice Because I was in charge. And it had never crossed my mind that that's why, and I don't mean that in a drug way, but, but I had forgotten that actually I hold a lot of power. And if you hold a lot of power, you have to use it wisely. You know, you have to really think about that relational aspect of your job is that you hold power, your decision maker, you [00:34:10] hold power over people, whether you like it or not.
[00:34:12] That that's, that's the nature of the job. Um, and sometimes that's very important. A fire alarm, for example. It's important. Everybody does what the person in charge says and gets outta the building. But generally you have to be aware that actually that power allows you to weigh up what people say and to hear what people say in order to make a decision.
[00:34:29] And I, and I think we've not put, we've not tackled the schools yet well enough. And certainly this again, is something I would [00:34:35] want you to trust, is systematic listening. How are people heard? Have we done a little audit of how are, how are voices heard in this organisation? How are they heard in school?
[00:34:43] And Google forums is not enough. That's one mechanism. But there are other mechanisms. We used to use it. And actually when I became a head, I used to have a weekly, what I called the moaning meeting to allow everyone to moan. Um, and when, when I worked with our heads, it always had on the agenda, general moaning because actually people [00:35:00] need to moan.
[00:35:01] It's, it's, that's what supervision is, isn't it? It's this, that ability to just get it out and say it like this is driving me and saying I need to moan about it. I, I think giving opportunity for the moan
[00:35:11] and actually as I moved on in my career,
[00:35:14] I didn't need to do the morning meeting. And I didn't call it the morning meeting when I started, but in my head that's what it was.
[00:35:18] So I let everyone just have their say, see this isn't working, the caretaker's not doing this, whatever it is that they've had to say [00:35:25] because eventually you don't need it because actually people know that they will be heard. So they know they can bring things to your attention, but when you first start, they don't know that Because they've not really met you.
[00:35:33] So that ability to have the opportunity to be heard, but you've gotta remember that what people will say in a group, large group, small group, and individually are different. So you need to be able to hear all the voices and you need to have systems to hear people. And that's really important because actually [00:35:50] you can't have a flat hierarchy if there are people who have no voice.
[00:35:53] Because that's not flat a hierarchy, that's a system that's looking like it's a hierarchy looking like it's a flat hierarchy, but it's not. So I think those things are really important in leadership and in creating cultural cultures where people feel like they belong. It's sounding like I've got an audit list here, but I don't really, but I worry that belonging will be tested by the [00:36:15] staff survey.
[00:36:16] I do not think staff surveys, if you look at what goes back toted, and I've now done 15 TED inspections over the last few years. I, I don't think that tells you much at all. I think it's a tick book exercise to say we've considered staff voice and I know Ted do speak to staff actually, and I, and I'm a, a good inspectors will get to the root of that.
[00:36:34] But, uh, I think it's dangerous. Just assume a survey tells you everything you really do need to go and [00:36:40] lead and listen to people because what people are doing often reflects how they feel, but what they say may not reflect how they feel because what they'd say may be reflect the power relationship behalf of that was asked question.
[00:36:50] So.
[00:36:51] Julie: And that was my first thought when you were saying there about re you know, thinking that everybody was just lovely as a CEO, but actually the, the censorship that will have gone on around what they want, they would've said what they thought they should say. And also what they [00:37:05] thought you wanted to hear would've been such a, because you hadn't built that relational safety as you say.
[00:37:11] And that kind of in leadership, uh, that's where it's really important, isn't it? It's building that trust and, and, and kind of, you did that through your, I actually heard morning meetings, but now in my head now I've listened. You were saying morning meetings, which
[00:37:27] Alice: morning meetings, but it [00:37:30] really wasn't for that.
[00:37:30] But it, it had representation from every kind of faction of the school. And we just would discuss the business of the week, what was going well, what wasn't. And I, I think that helps. I think getting that into the system, that there will be voice, we will hear things. Um, and it doesn't mean you don't have to have quite a hard edge.
[00:37:47] So I had a very hard edge about if you were going on a trip or you were using uptown, you had to put it in a calendar. And if you didn't, you didn't get to go [00:37:55] because actually you are also responsible to other people. So you needed to be on time for assembly Because we were all waiting for you and you, you couldn't go out for your line after lunch late.
[00:38:03] Because the dinner ladies needed to go home. And, and that making sure people also follow the systems of the school. That that's part of it too. That's part of wellbeing actually. Because it is nothing more frustrating than people who don't do their job properly and are never pulled up for it [00:38:20] actually. Uh, because if, I always used to, I used to say us to staff too, we stand the playground.
[00:38:25] The parents know who the great teachers are and some of it's accurate, some of it's slightly inaccurate, but there's a knowledge there. But your job as a head is to make sure everybody works to that kind of standard. And, and that's, that's part of emotional safety too. Because often I think where things go badly wrong in schools, things have not been tackled.
[00:38:43] They've been left GE [00:38:45] fester. That's not good for anybody's wellbeing. Actually. People want you to go and tackle the issues if you're a leader. And that's what's hard. Those bits are really hard. Um, but they're much easier to tackle when the culture's good.
[00:38:56] Julie: Yeah, and I was just thinking about that opportunity to, to have the staff voice and the, and moaning is part of that because, you know, then you get that full, I don't know, just honest observation of what life's like, [00:39:10] don't you?
[00:39:10] And then that's where your response can come in, um, around like sort of this role of leadership. Then thinking about yourself in that. Well, there's a few questions I wanna ask you about leadership. Uh, I'm gonna go somewhere different first. The first one I wanna ask you is about your approach, and I hope you, you're okay with me asking this, but you job shared the role of CEO and I know that you [00:39:35] kind of work as a shortened week and I'm really fascinated and I think other people will be as well.
[00:39:41] We've talked a lot about kind of flexible work and how difficult it is in schools and it is in lots of different roles. But can you just speak to that for, for a little while and, and, and how you thought it worked. What kind of, what's kind of the benefits of that sort of approach and should we get better at doing it?
[00:39:59] Alice: [00:40:00] So yes, we should be better at doing it. I have no doubt about that. And it's like any problem, it just needs some thought, doesn't it? So when I, I job shared with, um, Simon, who was the other CEO to be honest with you, it, it was a breath of fresh air to be with somebody at, at my level, to have somebody with me all the time.
[00:40:17] Because I, up until then, I had been on my own and I, I found that that was difficult. Um, even though I was well supported by a team of [00:40:25] people, having somebody at that level definitely helped. We had a really similar value system, so that made us able to work together. We had huge professional respect for each other.
[00:40:36] Um, we shared similar sense of humour. I think those things often help as well, you know, that we, we laughed together about the same things. We had each other's back. We also had very clear definitions of our jobs. I dealt with the first [00:40:50] schools, Simon dealt with the middle and high schools. And that allowed us to have some separation, some focus and things that we did together.
[00:40:56] Uh, and we only did it for a year, but I, I, I think it, it did work. It wasn't without challenge. Sometimes we were too polite probably to say, I wouldn't do it that way. I would do it this way. We hadn't worked together for that long. So there were probably things that we might have done slightly differently.
[00:41:10] And we overlapped for two days, which often is not thought about in flexible working. Now we could [00:41:15] do that because of the nature of our jobs. We're not talking about timetables and having to have somebody in the building. So Simon worked Monday to Wednesday, and I worked Tuesday to Thursday, and we'd, neither of us worked on a Friday.
[00:41:24] And that was, was quite an unusual pattern of working. I think in essence, we were both available on a Friday if there was an emergency, if somebody needed to phone you. And that's the same now, I, I am still available on a Friday, but I work at my own pace on a Friday. So that gives me this kind of head space that helps me to think things [00:41:40] through.
[00:41:40] So I don't always work on a Friday, but sometimes I will do things if I need to, but I'll do them in my terms around going to the gym and doing the things that I want to do. But I think if you have people job sharing, you need to give them time to work together. And this has become much more difficult as school budgets have become much more compressed.
[00:41:57] But part of when I had quite a lot of job share staff, because primary education is full of women who have children who then want [00:42:05] to work part-time. And I had great staff, so why would you not want to keep them? So we had a system where everybody worked a Wednesday so that you always had all the staff teaming on a Wednesday.
[00:42:14] And it was designed like that because otherwise there were people who never met other people. And you always had a half day overlap with your job share partner. And that really helped. Now it was expensive, but I would argue the quality of education was better as a result. So from my perspective, it was definitely worth [00:42:30] doing.
[00:42:30] I, I think there are real challenges about flexible working. I think it's maybe slightly easier in secondary, where you can have two teachers teaching an A-level class, you know, and one teaches the start the week and one teaches the end. I, I think in primary it, it, it can be a lot more challenging.
[00:42:46] There's a point at which you, you could have too many job shares. I think. But I imagine all of this just needs some really careful thinking about, [00:42:55] and like everything needs some funding put to it, you know? It needs somebody to go, actually we have a workforce that would be more productive and better for children if we allowed this to happen.
[00:43:08] In, in my world, it's easier. I don't, I, I don't have a class of children waiting for me at nine o'clock on a Yeah. Any morning. Um, so I have more flexibility. But there are other ways to be flexible. And I think [00:43:20] as leaders, that's also our job. When I first became ahead, I remember saying to staff, if you need any time off for your children, just let me know.
[00:43:28] And the woman who became my deputy actually came down the corridor in tears. And I said to her, what is it? And she said, nobody's ever allowed me to go to an optician's appointment for my child before. And I was just like that. Pardon? So we are an organisation that's about children and families. That's what schools are.
[00:43:42] And here we are saying to staff, you can't go to [00:43:45] an optician's appointment with your child who requires significant, uh, optician intervention. Why would you do that? I will cover the class myself. You know, I just, I think that's ridiculous. People who came and said, can I go to a neighbor's funeral? I know the policy only says, eh, close family.
[00:44:00] And I'm just like that. Yes, of course you can go to your neighbor's funeral. In fact, you can have the whole day if you need to. That's flexible working. And, and people don't think about it like that. And, and then people say, well, then [00:44:10] there'll be people who take, take the piss out of you. And I'm like, that.
[00:44:14] There, there will be, but there'll be very few and far between because generally people will not do that. But what they will give you, you'll get it back in the bank if you need them for a training day or to cover something or to go that extra mile, you get it back. And, and why would you not do that?
[00:44:28] These are people who have their own lives. And that, that for me is what flexible working as well. It's about the ability to say, yes, you can do [00:44:35] that. Your sister lives in Australia, you can have unpaid leave. Off you go. It's all those things. And, and you can't always do it, but in general you can. And you don't need to fill in a form, you know, please fill in a form to go to your neighbor's funeral.
[00:44:47] I'm sorry. You know, I know you've known your neighbour for 40 years and actually you're now full of grief and you're really sad that your neighbour died. But if you just fill in this form, I'll see if we can let you out on Tuesday for two hours. That's not how you treat people. It's a terrible way to do it.
[00:44:59] And it is though, you don't [00:45:00] need system. Of course you're doing the bigger the organisation, the more system you need. But
[00:45:03] I think we have to go back to that human being and think,
[00:45:07] what can we do to make this work? And then lots of schools do that. You know, I, I know some of the deputies in some of our high schools, uh, get Thursday afternoon to go and, uh, pick up the children from school.
[00:45:17] And those things are really important to people. The more you can make that part of what you do, the more flexible working I think you can kind of offer [00:45:25] people. So I think that's good. From my perspective, uh, AB was ready to work part-time, you know, so the job, uh, as CEO at time was a three day a week job.
[00:45:34] Of course, it never really was a three day a week job, but it was advertised that way. So that gave flexibility. But then I think with that role models to the organisation is that part-time working is fine.
[00:45:45] And when we became
[00:45:47] a merged organisation, it also said to the [00:45:50] organisation,
[00:45:50] uh, so the each, each side has equality, but also job sharing's fine.
[00:45:56] The CEO's job share.
[00:45:57] Getting the board sometimes to think about that, at first was quite challenging. People were like, oh, how are you gonna make this work? But Simon and I were both very clear. Because actually what originally happened was there was a suggestion that one of us would be the CEO and one of us be the deputy CEO and I.
[00:46:11] And um, my view was just actually we, we both do this [00:46:15] because we can. We were already doing the job. So we working out together is, is going to be fine. And I think as AER organisation, we were lucky to be able to do that. It gave us a really good start in that first year that both of us could work together like that because we both had different histories.
[00:46:27] So we, we began to learn that from each other.
[00:46:30] Julie: I think that's really interesting, particularly for people who are maybe listening who are merging and we know that there's more and more kind of trusts and organisation. I think it's, I think it's really interesting [00:46:40] to hear that story. I think it's an important story to be told, um, that it can work and it does work and you know that, and it can be worth considering, as you say, it's a problem that needs solving.
[00:46:51] It's just, you know, um, logistical. But I love what you say about that flexibility as well. It isn't, you know, if it is difficult for funding or just logistics or whatever, there are other ways to show flexibility. And as you were [00:47:05] talking, you, you know, and I, I kind of, I'm always a bit careful, but I worked in an organisation where people felt scared to ask to go to their child's nativity, and you never know whether it was a yes or a no.
[00:47:18] And to be honest, at times it felt like it depended whether there was a bit of favour. But I remember my first one going to it as a, as a new mother already caught in the headlights [00:47:30] of wanting to do my best as a mother to a child who, you know, was in daycare and was getting looked after by other people who weren't me, versus wanting to come back and show that I'd knocked up the ball professionally and trying to be all of those things.
[00:47:48] And being afraid what it would look like if I asked if I could go the nativity and what would that look [00:47:55] like, and would I be able to, and, and I remember just as you were talking, I felt it like, you know, fit. On every level. Now I look back and I go, what?
[00:48:06] Alice: Yeah, no, totally. And what you've just said there, I felt fear.
[00:48:11] Nobody, nobody should come to work and feel fear. Fear is not a, the, you could be frustrated, you could, [00:48:20] uh, be a bit anxious, but nobody should feel fear. And consistency is a big deal there too. Nobody, no, you don't treat one the way you treat and not, it's not like that. It's not a case by case basis. It's flexible or not flexible.
[00:48:31] So actually you, you go to people and say, this is fine. And you know what? I, I, I think it is fine. I, I think you have to think what people, they don't exist in school. You reception, if you teach reception, the great thing about reception is they think you live in the building. [00:48:45] So I once met a child who was crying because she saw me get into a car to go home, and she couldn't understand that.
[00:48:51] She literally thought I'd just got outta my cupboard in the morning. It was so sweet. She was a lovely kid. Um, but you don't live in a cupboard. You live in a context. You have family, you have your own people. And you have to remember that as a leader at, in any part of an organisation. And actually, I, I think the other thing you have to do is you have to share that, you know, I talk about my family, I [00:49:10] talk about my wife, I talk about where I've come from.
[00:49:13] Um, as you know, I talk about my love of neighbours, the soap opera. And I do it because actually that is part of who I am. It's part of what makes me a person. And you need to relate to people as people. So they need to know something about you. I think, and I mean, I am relatively boundaried and quite private at times, but it's very important that people know I'm a person who [00:49:35] exists outside of this job.
[00:49:37] That this is a job. I'm a whole person. And that's really important in leadership, I think in schools, uh, that we, that we understand that. And it's what makes you able to reach other organisations and other people is, is that you, you, you find that common ground. And, and that's really important. Somebody told me that a long time ago, find a common ground, and that stays with me.
[00:49:55] I always think, right, where's their common ground? What have we got in common here? Even though we look like we're, we're, we're [00:50:00] from totally different sides of the, you know, pillar or whatever. So
[00:50:03] Julie: I've just written down another brilliant quote that needs to go in a book there, Alice. You don't live in a cupboard.
[00:50:07] You live in a context. I mean,
[00:50:11] Alice: oh, there's so much, Julie, I'll just get started as soon as I retire. I'll get straight on that book. Absolutely. I'm just gonna have isms though, things you should say, you know? Absolutely
[00:50:20] Julie: brilliant. So, um, thinking about then your own [00:50:25] wellbeing and obviously the emotional load, the mental load, I don't doubt there's been some incredibly tricky times over your career.
[00:50:33] And, and as you mentioned, I know neighbours plays a big role in that. Um, and we're talking about the TV programme for anybody who's thinking that, not our actual neighbours, but do you think, looking back, how well have you looked after yourself? Is it more important? Are you more intentional? And [00:50:50] what, what does that look like now?
[00:50:51] Alice: I'm definitely more intentional and well, my own physical and mental wellbeing has become. More important as I've got older. And the interesting thing for me is I was a head teacher, uh, as a single person, and it made me very able to do my job because I had all the time in the world to think about it.
[00:51:10] But I got married just soon after I became a CEO and had two stepchildren and [00:51:15] had to move between those two worlds of being the CEO at work and then moving back into a family context. And I take my hat off to those people in, um, positions of, of authority who had the family all the way through because it's challenging.
[00:51:29] It's really hard. And I, I think we need to think about that because, um, I think it was Joe Heaton who said, uh, you know, you're, um, completely replaceable at work, but not home. And [00:51:40] I, I think that stays with me as well. I think that is something that's really important. So for me, I, I can reflect on those two different things.
[00:51:47] So I think, um, you know, in that big spell of leadership as a head, I worked a huge amount and probably paid not enough attention to my own wellbeing. Um, although having had the wells model always in the back of my head, uh, I, I remembered things like making sure you laughed was really important. [00:52:05] I, I did probably my physical health was the least thing I, I played the least attention to.
[00:52:09] Uh, but as I've got older and my body has got complaints more about the things that I did in my youth, I am much, much more mindful about things like making sure I get physical activity and physical exercise, making sure I eat well, um, as much as I possibly can. I understand that neighbours for me was that disconnect was like chewing gum.
[00:52:28] I didn't have to concentrate. I knew all the [00:52:30] people. It gave me that switch from one place to another. So I kind of got that that was part, part of the importance of that. I've always had great friends, many in education who kind of understand your context and how you work. And I mean, I'm Scottish, so everything is quite funny.
[00:52:47] Uh, and you should always look for the comedy moment in everything. And I've been working with the person who's taking over next and he's very funny. And, and it's given me great joy to work [00:52:55] with people who are funny. And I worked with a brilliant deputy for many, many years and he was very funny. And together we were very funny.
[00:53:01] So we all could always laugh about things that are quite ridiculous in schools. I mean, one of the things I think's ridiculous is goes wearing lanyards. Lanyards have become so important. We don't ever step back and have a laugh about how ridiculous lanyards actually are. When I started teaching, nobody wore a lanyard.
[00:53:16] Everybody knew who I was. And I almost used to say, if the student in the school don't know [00:53:20] who I am, we are in trouble. You know, I don't need a lanyard to identify myself. But now of course I wear a lanyard just like everybody else. But it's those kind of things. Trump plays just seem, some things are a bit ridiculous, helps, I think.
[00:53:32] So most definitely, as I've got older, I've been much more mindful about it, and I, I think I can see its importance more and more as I've got older, uh, that, that kind of looking after yourself is important, and being [00:53:45] emotionally aware, aware of your own emotions and aware of how they can overwhelm you when you're dealing with difficult things.
[00:53:54] For me, I always, I am a pleaser, you know, and I, I, I, I like to keep people happy, and I have to be really careful that I'm not just keeping people happy, that sometimes I'm gonna have to say, no, I can't do that. But this is why, uh, and obviously I've had to take some very challenging decisions at various points and people who've [00:54:10] fundamentally disagreed with me, and that's okay.
[00:54:12] It, it's okay sometimes to go, okay, well, we don't agree, and that's all right. Uh, you know, that is, we don't have to agree. So, so being aware of what that feels like when you're in conflict with somebody else and recognising those feelings, I think is quite important. And I constantly am thinking about that kind of self-care.
[00:54:27] And I talked to head teachers about that too. How is your self-care? Because we're our own worst critics, and I can be, you know, very critical of [00:54:35] myself in a way that's counterproductive actually not helpful. And I, I focusing on all the negative things. So I've started to think, so, what's the worst outcome?
[00:54:44] What's the best outcome, and what's most likely to happen as opposed to just c catastrophizing? It's all those little things I think are, are really important. So I play tennis now, uh, and I'm a little bit obsessed by it. Um, and I'm really terrible, but I, it, it is a really [00:55:00] good physical thing to do. Uh, and I go to the gym quite regularly and I like the feeling of feeling fitter than I I did, uh, many years ago as well.
[00:55:08] So I try to focus on that kind of mindfulness of feeling. This is how you feel when you finished playing that tennis game. Remember? And hold onto that because you, they'll make,
[00:55:16] they'll motivate you to do the next one. I think so,
[00:55:19] yeah. But just now we're at the end of term, so there's no food in the fridge.
[00:55:23] You know, I eat a massive sandwich for lunch [00:55:25] yesterday where normally I would eat a episode soup, you know, so you also have to go, okay. Sometimes that is okay. It's just the end of the year and things are a little stressed as well, so,
[00:55:33] Julie: and it's a bit, cake's gonna feature a lot, isn't it? Over the next few weeks as well.
[00:55:37] Alice: That is so funny because interestingly, the school I was the head of, they're moving buildings and uh, we, I was invited last week to go back to say goodbye to the building as we're ex pupils and ex staff and experience. And they had this [00:55:50] lovely evening event where of course I recognised as a parent approached me, I knew who they were Because they hadn't changed that much.
[00:55:56] But all these young people who were little children when I was there are now, you know, in their twenties and thirties. And as a head teacher, I was used to a joke with children to say, have you got any cake? We like cake in the office. Bring a cake. And when a joking kid came up to me, he said, I was the one who always brought you cake.
[00:56:11] And it was so sweet and so lovely and that was what he could remember. So I [00:56:15] really hope cake features Julie. Because I think cake is a, can never be underestimated. You can never underestimate the power of a good cake. So yeah,
[00:56:22] Julie: again, there we go. I think that's the closing line for your book.
[00:56:26] Alice: Absolutely.
[00:56:27] Absolutely
[00:56:29] Julie: right. I'm gonna timewise, I could keep talking to you, Alice, but I'm very conscious of time. I'm gonna do three like quick fire questions at you before finishing with the last one. Um, [00:56:40] what's your hope for education? What do you wanna see?
[00:56:42] Alice: So I think we're beginning to understand that collaboration's incredibly important.
[00:56:46] Let's keep that going. Let's work together. Let's not be in competition with each other. Less judgement , more collaboration is what I would say. Because getting people to work together will, will help. So bring solution. And I think in our trust, we bring people together a lot. And that has been a good thing.
[00:57:02] You get solution, then you get people to work together. [00:57:05] But it needs to be more systemic. We need to not be in coming from the school down the road. We all need to be working together. We need to not be in competition with other agencies. We need to be working together for the good of children. So let's hold on to collaboration.
[00:57:16] I, I think there's a general view at a national level that's important. So let's collaborate to solve problems, you know, as opposed to argue with each other about or say, I'm better than you. No judgement , collaboration. That would be my big thing, I think.
[00:57:29] Julie: Gorgeous. [00:57:30] How do you hope people remember you?
[00:57:32] Alice: I hope they remember that I was fair.
[00:57:35] And I was kind and I was about children actually. That's what, that's really what I hope. I hope they remember that I was always trying to put children first. Because for me that that the words, what will the impact be on children of wearing a lanyard, for example. Those things are really important. Let's always think about the things we do through the lens of what will the impact be on children.[00:57:55]
[00:57:55] Um, I hope people remember that that was kind of my mantra.
[00:57:58] Julie: Gorgeous. My third one I've realised is very irreverent and I'm not, I'm like doubting myself that I should ask it Because it's absolutely nothing to do with anything other than Have you watched the Kylie Minogue documentary?
[00:58:08] Alice: Not yet, but I did notice it on Netflix.
[00:58:11] I'm going to on it. But you remember my knowledge of Kylie is really as a garage mechanic marrying Jason. You know, it [00:58:20] wasn't really as Kylie, the pop star, much the do lover really for me. She will always be Charlene, you know. So I haven't watched it yet. I did notice it. Yeah, I started watch the Madonna one.
[00:58:29] Uh, but I haven't watched Kylie yet, but it's on my list. Julie, it's definitely on my list.
[00:58:33] Julie: Good. It's brilliant. She is brilliant. Yeah. Definitely worth the watch. Alice, we ask our guests the same question we always finish in the same way. If, uh, you were to offer a suggestion [00:58:45] of one kind thing that our listeners could go and do for themselves today, what would it be?
[00:58:50] Well, I think it's always trying to just take a little bit of time out and think about the good thing you did that day, because you will have done one good thing. But we tend to overlook them in the trials and tribulations of the day, and we're very focused on the negative. So think about that good thing and, and, and hold onto that because [00:59:10] if you can do that, you're finding the joy in what you do and finding joy is incredibly important and it can disappear, uh, in the rush of a busy day.
[00:59:19] But just trying to connect to that joy, the why you do the job, I think is really important. So that'd be the one thing I, I would tell people to connect what you, what, why you do the job and find the joy. And if you can't, well that may lead you down a different path. But try and do that [00:59:35] regularly because I think that takes you back to, and this is why I do this, this is the privilege of being in education.
[00:59:41] Love that. Alice, thank you so much. Thank you for sharing and your thoughts and your views and, and reflecting. I think like if I was listening to that and, and kind of in either a leadership role or wanted to be in a leadership role, I would've a pen and a paper and I'd be writing everything down.
[00:59:58] Because I think what you've talked about [01:00:00] there is like professional generosity of thoughts and ideas and, and actually. You know, they're not, they're not really rocket science and I don't say that to be demeaning, but they are the little things that are so important that get lost and forgotten, I think.
[01:00:17] Alice: Absolutely.
[01:00:17] Julie: So, thank you.
[01:00:18] Alice: Thank you. Thank you for asking me. It's been lovely to talk to you, Julia. I've really enjoyed it.
[01:00:23] Julie: And good luck. What's next? What does [01:00:25] life hold? That was my, that was my, not, that was my question. Not my Kylie Ogone. Sorry. Because I went rogue. Okay. What next finish with what next, Alice?
[01:00:33] Alice: Well, I think a little bit more of this kinda work, thinking about things, supporting people, hopefully training. I love training. It's one of the fa my favourite things to do is to, uh, work with people. I, I deliver some national courses, um, and that opportunity to talk to [01:00:50] teachers in lots of different aspects.
[01:00:52] Uh, I still actually like to stand in the classroom and help people to think about, did this work? How could we do this better? And I, that's how I think about it. Did this work? How could it we do better? Um, so some more work like that. And right now, I don't know, I don't know what the future holds and that's okay.
[01:01:06] I think that, I think holding that position is good too, to go well, we'll see where it takes us. Look at the fabulous people I got to meet so far. There'll be some more fabulous people [01:01:15] along the way, so I, I'm really open to that. I'm looking forward to it.
[01:01:18] Julie: Brilliant. Watch this space. Thank you, Alice.
[01:01:20] Absolutely. You're welcome.