Ramifications of Insulation (pt.2 of 2)

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On the גחלים gechalim on the גחלים gechalim ממש.

mamash.

That sounds like the רמ"א,

Rama,

right?

That you're allowed to have the קדירה kedeira touching the גחלים.

gechalim.

So the בית יוסף Beis Yosef he quotes this מרדכי.

Mordechai.

The בית יוסף Beis Yosef is in סימן רנ"ג סעיף א Siman Reish Nun

Gimmel Seif Aleph דיבור המתחיל ומה שכתב רבינו לחלק,

Dibur Ha-Mat-chil U-Ma She-Kasav Rabbeinu Le-Challek,

also on page fifty-nine in the fancy טורים.

Turs.

So the בית יוסף Beis Yosef finds a way to wiggle out of this

one.

He says,

no,

the אור זרוע Or Zarua holds like רש"י Rashi that if you have גרוף

וקטום garuf v'katum on the coals then that's no longer called מוסיף הבל,

mosif hevel,

right?

This was a רש"י Rashi that we also we ran through when we were

learning the first time because we didn't want to get involved with הטמנה.

Hatmana.

But the רש"י Rashi in the very beginning of פרק כירה,

Perek Kira,

רש"י Rashi says גרוף וקטום garuf v'katum what putting the ashes on the coals

does is it makes them no longer מוסיף הבל.

mosif hevel.

תוספות Tosafot asked why not?

Why is it not מוסיף הבל?

mosif hevel?

But that's what רש"י Rashi said.

So the בית יוסף Beis Yosef says oh it must be that the case

here is that you did גרוף וקטום garuf v'katum so the coals are not

מוסיף הבל mosif hevel and so then if you put it on an ערב

שבת Erev Shabbos there's no איסור הטמנה Issur Hatmana בדבר המוסיף הבל be-davar ha-mosif

hevel because it's not מוסיף הבל.

mosif hevel.

So that's how the בית יוסף Beis Yosef makes the אור זרוע Or Zarua

on his side.

But the רמ"א Rama in the דרכי משה Darkei Moshe writes no,

the אור זרוע Or Zarua holds like him that there's no איסור הטמנה Issur

Hatmana when it's exposed on the top.

So that is one potential ראשון Rishon who is like the רמ"א.

Rama.

Another one is the רבינו תם Rabbeinu Tam in ספר הישר Sefer Ha-Yashar in

חלק החידושים סימן רל"ה.

Chelek Ha-Chidushim Siman Reish Lamed Heh.

רבינו תם Rabbeinu Tam writes,

I'll read you his לשון:

lashon:

וחמין שלנו שאנו טומנין אף על פי שיש סביבותיו מעט רמץ כגובה אצבע אין

כאן איסור דהטמנה משמע שמכוסה בו רובו או כולו.

V-chamin she-lanu she-anu tomnin af al pi she-yesh svivosav me-at remetz ke-govah etzba ein

kan issur de-hatmana mashma she-mechuseh bo rubo o kulo.

Remember that לשון.

lashon.

That's going to be a very important לשון.

lashon.

הטמנה משמע שמכוסה בו רובו או כולו.

Hatmana mashma she-mechuseh bo rubo o kulo.

But one thing you see is that if it's just touching on the bottom

it's not הטמנה.

Hatmana.

You need at least רובו או כולו rubo o kulo to be הטמנה.

Hatmana.

So רבינו תם Rabbeinu Tam is a good ראיה raya to the רמ"א.

Rama.

There's also the ריטב"א Ritva מ"ז ע"ב mem-zayin amud bais דיבור המתחיל גמרא קופה

Dibur Ha-Mat-chil Gemara Kuppa who quotes רבינו תם Rabbeinu Tam that if a pot

is opened on the top it's not הטמנה.

Hatmana.

You also have,

so how do we so we have אור זרוע,

Or Zarua,

we have רבינו תם,

Rabbeinu Tam,

we have another רבינו תם,

Rabbeinu Tam,

right?

ספר הישר,

Sefer Ha-Yashar,

ריטב"א Ritva בשם רבינו תם.

beshem Rabbeinu Tam.

I don't know if we'll count that as one or two.

Give it to him,

why not?

Then we have the שיטה לר"ן Shitta La-Ran also on ל"ח ע"א lamed-ches amud

aleph דיבור המתחיל איבעיא להו Dibur Ha-Mat-chil I-baya Le-hu who holds that if the

קדירה kedeira is מגולה megula so then there's no הטמנה.

Hatmana.

So it's four on four if we let רבינו תם Rabbeinu Tam count twice.

There's also a שולחן ערוך הרב Shulchan Aruch Ha-Rav מהדורא בתרא סימן רנ"ט Madura

Basra Siman Reish Nun Tes who says that the ספר התרומה Sefer Ha-Truma and

רבינו יונה Rabbeinu Yona hold that there's no הטמנה Hatmana if it's exposed.

So the רמ"א Rama wins.

The רמ"א Rama has more ראשונים.

Rishonim.

But in all seriousness there are clearly a significant amount of ראשונים Rishonim on

either side.

That's what I'm demonstrating.

That you're not going to be able to make you know like a דעת

יחיד daas yachid out of this.

There's a significant amount of ראשונים Rishonim on either side of the ledger over

here.

Now there is,

you know what,

your question's still relevant?

Yeah,

according to the מחבר,

Mechaber,

how can you ever put a pot down on שבת?

Shabbos?

What do you mean how can you put it down?

Put it down on the counter?

On the table?

The table's not,

you know,

the table's not הטמנה.

Hatmana.

The table's not,

table's not insulating it.

You need to have something that's there for the purpose of insulation.

No,

that's not there for the purpose of insulation.

Yeah,

that's.

Any other questions before we go on?

Okay,

so the next point of discussion within this is let's say you hold like

the רמ"א.

Rama.

Any ספרדים Sefardim here?

No?

Good.

So we're all we can all just talk אשכנזי Ashkenazi for a second.

Good.

So let's say we hold like the רמ"א.

Rama.

So הטמנה במקצת לאו שמה הטמנה.

Hatmana be-miktzas lav shemah Hatmana.

How much for the רמ"א Rama is הטמנה?

Hatmana?

Right?

So now you say what what's the question?

The רמ"א Rama said if it's מגולה למעלה לא מקרי הטמנה,

megula le-ma'la lo mikri Hatmana,

as long as it's exposed to the top it's not הטמנה.

Hatmana.

So what I'm about to share with you,

all the מקורות mekoros I'm about to quote to you until I say I'm

no longer quoting from him is all found in the ספר ארחות שבת חלק

א בירורי הלכה סימן ב אותיות ד עד יג.

Sefer Orchot Shabbos Chelek Aleph Birurei Halacha Siman Bais osiyos daled ad yud gimmel.

The first relevant מראה מקום mareh makom is a פרי מגדים.

Pri Megadim.

Yeah,

the ארחות שבת חלק א בירורי הלכה סימן ב אותיות ד עד יג.

Orchot Shabbos Chelek Aleph Birurei Halacha Siman Bais osiyos daled ad yud gimmel.

So he has the following analysis.

He quotes the פרי מגדים.

Pri Megadim.

פרי מגדים Pri Megadim is in משבצות זהב סימן רנ"ט סעיף קטן ג Mishbetzos

Zahav Siman Reish Nun Tes Seif Katan Gimmel דיבור המתחיל ומהו שיעורה.

Dibur Ha-Mat-chil U-Mahu Shiura.

And the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim has a ספק.

safek.

When the רמ"א Rama says that if it's exposed at the top it's not

it's not הטמנה.

Hatmana.

Does the רמ"א Rema really mean that?

Or does the רמ"א Rema mean that if the rest of the pot is

covered that's still הטמנה?

hatmanah?

Now,

why would you think the רמ"א Rema means something that he didn't say?

Why would you think he doesn't mean what he did say?

So,

the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim brings two ראיות rayos לחומרא.

l'chumra.

He has one ראיה raya from a ט"ז Taz and one ראיה raya from

a רשב"א.

Rashba.

The ט"ז Taz is in סימן רנ"ח,

Siman Reish Nun Ches,

where the ט"ז Taz says that you're not allowed to take a כלי kli

that has cold liquid inside it and put it inside,

submerge it inside a hot liquid in order to heat it up,

because that would be הטמנה.

hatmanah.

That's what the ט"ז Taz says.

Now,

the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim says he has a ראיה raya from there that

even if something's exposed at the top,

if the rest of it is covered that's still הטמנה.

hatmanah.

What's the ראיה?

raya?

Maybe the ט"ז's Taz case is that it's fully submerged,

so what's the ראיה?

raya?

Sounds like the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim is assuming that the bottle,

when you have a bottle of cold liquid and you submerge it in hot

liquid,

it's probably going to like,

you know,

the top is going to float up and it's going to still,

it's going to be exposed.

So therefore,

even though you have the top above the liquid,

above the hot liquid,

that's still going to be a problem of הטמנה.

hatmanah.

However,

it's very easy to reject the ראיה raya of the פרי מגדים Pri Megadim

and say no,

the ט"ז Taz is talking about a case that it's entirely submerged in the

liquid.

The לשון lashon of the ט"ז Taz is actually שכולו טמון בתוכו,

she'kulo tamun betocho,

and that would be הטמנה hatmanah if the entire thing is submerged.

By the way,

just if you want to picture in your head what's going on here,

think baby bottles,

right?

How do you heat up a baby bottle on שבת?

Shabbos?

Can you take a cold baby bottle and put it in hot water to

heat it up?

So that's a שאלה shailah we're going to have to discuss more באריכות,

ba'arichus,

but this is that שאלה.

shailah.

So the ט"ז Taz is saying if it's fully submerged,

that's הטמנה.

hatmanah.

Also in the משנה ברורה,

Mishnah Berurah,

if you have your משנה ברורה,

Mishnah Berurah,

so look at סימן רנ"ח Siman Reish Nun Ches סעיף קטן ב',

seif katan beis,

the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah quotes this ט"ז Taz and the משנה ברורה Mishnah

Berurah writes explicitly,

כיוון שכולו טמון בתוכו,

keivan she'kulo tamun betocho,

it's a problem.

But the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah says in the next line,

if it's מגולה למעלה,

megulah l'maalah,

it's not הטמנה.

hatmanah.

So it's clear in the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah that the ט"ז Taz is

talking about a case of fully submerged,

so the פרי מגדים's Pri Megadim ראיה raya from the ט"ז Taz is a

questionable ראיה.

raya.

What about the רשב"א?

Rashba?

So the רשב"א Rashba that he thinks he has a ראיה raya from is

commenting on a משנה Mishnah on מ"ט ע"א.

Mem Tes amud aleph.

If you have the גמרא Gemara in front of you,

the משנה Mishnah says on מ"ט ע"א,

Mem Tes amud aleph,

second משנה,

Mishnah,

towards the bottom of מ"ט ע"א.

Mem Tes amud aleph.

משנה Mishnah says,

נוטל את הכיסוי והן נופלות.

notel es hakisuy v'hein noflos.

If you have a covering on your pot on שבת,

Shabbos,

you're not allowed to move it because it's מוקצה,

muktzah,

but if you pull up the cover and it falls on its own,

that's okay.

So the רשב"א Rashba says,

well,

obviously then you're dealing with a case that it's not fully covered,

because if it was fully covered,

how'd you get to the handle?

So you see from here that you could have הטמנה hatmanah even if it's

not fully covered.

So that's the פרי מגדים's Pri Megadim ראיה raya from the רשב"א.

Rashba.

Also not such a ראיה.

raya.

Maybe you could say it's fully covered except for the handle,

that's different than the whole top being exposed.

If it's fully covered except for the handle,

maybe that is a problem.

That's what the חידושי הר"ן Chiddushei HaRan says here.

Also,

maybe you could say,

okay,

so the רשב"א Rashba holds הטמנה במקצת שמה הטמנה,

hatmanah b'miktzas shemoh hatmanah,

right,

we already saw four other ראשונים Rishonim who hold that way.

That doesn't mean the other six who hold like the רמ"א Rema need to

agree.

So maybe it's the רשב"א,

Rashba,

that doesn't mean the רמ"א Rema holds like that רשב"א.

Rashba.

I'm going to have to either talk faster or accomplish less.

So what do we do here?

So the פרי מגדים's Pri Megadim ראיות rayos are not such great ראיות.

rayos.

However,

here's where the complicated thing comes in.

Even פרי מגדים Pri Megadim notwithstanding,

there are different משמעויות mashma'uyos in the לשונות leshonos of the ראשונים Rishonim and

the פוסקים.

Poskim.

We already saw,

for example,

the לשון lashon of רבנו תם.

Rabbeinu Tam.

When רבנו תם Rabbeinu Tam characterized הטמנה,

hatmanah,

he said הטמנה hatmanah is if it's מכוסה רובו או כולו.

mechuseh rubo o kulo.

So which one is it?

Is it רובו rubo or is it כולו?

kulo?

It's not clear.

But what do you do?

מגן אברהם,

Magen Avraham,

at the end of סימן רנ"ט Siman Reish Nun Tes in the קיצור דיני

שהייה והטמנה,

Kitzur Dinei Shehiyah v'Hatmanah,

he says explicitly like the פשט pshat of the לשון lashon of the רמ"א.

Rema.

The מגן אברהם's Magen Avraham לשון lashon is כללא דמילתא,

klala d'milsa,

בזמן הזה אין לנו שום הטמנה,

b'zman hazeh ein lanu shum hatmanah,

כיוון שמגולה למעלה.

keivan she'megulah l'maalah.

So if it's just מגולה למעלה,

megulah l'maalah,

that's okay according to the מגן אברהם.

Magen Avraham.

פרי מגדים Pri Megadim as well,

in אשל אברהם Aishel Avraham סימן רנ"ג Siman Reish Nun Gimmel סעיף קטן י"ז,

seif katan yud zayin,

his לשון lashon is...

ואינו הכי נמי ve-ino hachi nami כל שמגולה למעלה פיה kol shemegula lemala piha

דכיסוי לבד de-kisoi levad אף שכולה טמונה af shekula tmuna מותר לדידיה הזו.

mutar ledidei azo.

Also if you look in the שולחן ערוך הרב Shulchan Aruch Harav סימן רנ"ז

Siman Raish Nun Zayin in the קונטרס אחרון Kuntres Acharon סעיף קטן ג' Sif

Katan Gimmel he quotes from the הגהות מרדכי Hagahot Mordechai that as long as

the top is exposed it's מותר.

mutar.

ט"ז Taz in סימן רנ"ט Siman Raish Nun Tes סעיף קטן י"ד Sif Katan

Yud Dalet writes that way as well.

So all we really have left to contend with is a לשון loshon of

רבינו תם Rabbeinu Tam רובו ככולו,

rubo kekulo,

right?

How does the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura פסק,

pasken,

right?

So look,

if you have משנה ברורה Mishna Berura in front of you,

let's go on a little tour of the משנה ברורה.

Mishna Berura.

משנה ברורה Mishna Berura is going to present some,

this is just tricky.

Reb Avraham's going to tell me they were written by different people.

Maybe.

But let's just lay out the evidence,

right?

Look at משנה ברורה סימן רנ"ח סעיף קטן ב'.

Mishna Berura Siman Raish Nun Ches Sif Katan Bais.

This is where we just were a moment ago.

You see where by the ה' Hei of the שער הציון,

Sha'ar Hatziyun,

כתבו האחרונים,

kosvu ha-achronim,

if it's on page ל' Lamed if you're in the standard משנה ברורה,

Mishna Berura,

כתבו האחרונים שאסור ליקח כלי ובתוכו משקה צונן ולתחבו בשבת לכלי מלא מים חמין

שיחמו בתוכו אפילו לא יוכל לבוא לידי יד סולדת בו שזהו דרך הטמנה ממש

כיון שכולו טמון בתוכו.

kosvu ha-achronim she-assur likach kli u-vesocho mashke tzonin u-lesachvo be-Shabbos likli molei mayim chamim

she-yechamu besocho afilu lo yuchal lavo lidei yad soledes bo shezehu derech hatmana mamash

keivan shekulo tamun besocho.

So it's clear in this משנה ברורה Mishna Berura that only if the entire

thing is submerged it's הטמנה hatmana and the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura even says

explicitly in the next line as long as it's exposed at the top it's

not הטמנה.

hatmana.

So that's one משנה ברורה.

Mishna Berura.

Another משנה ברורה Mishna Berura look at סימן רנ"ט סעיף קטן ס"ט.

Siman Raish Nun Tes Sif Katan Samech Tes.

So in סימן רנ"ט סעיף קטן ס"ט Siman Raish Nun Tes Sif Katan Samech

Tes he writes,

look at the last two lines of the סעיף קטן,

Sif Katan,

ואם אינו טמון היטב בתוכן שהוא פתוח מלמעלה שרי דזה לא מקרי הטמנה.

ve-im eino tamun heiteiv besochan she-hu pasuach milamala shari deze lo mikrei hatmana.

So far so good.

Also look at סימן רנ"ט סעיף קטן מ"ח.

Siman Raish Nun Tes Sif Katan Mem Ches.

So this is where the רמ"א Rema said if it's מגולה למעלה megula lemala

it's good.

Writes the משנה ברורה סעיף קטן מ"ח,

Mishna Berura Sif Katan Mem Ches,

היינו שאין מכסה עליה בבגדים מלמעלה.

hainu she-ein mechaseh aleha bivgadim milamala.

As long as the top is exposed you're good to go.

Fine.

So you're all thinking why am I just showing you the same thing over

and over again?

Well because look at the next משנה ברורה.

Mishna Berura.

סימן רנ"ז סעיף קטן מ"ג.

Siman Raish Nun Zayin Sif Katan Mem Gimmel.

The very end of סימן רנ"ז סעיף קטן מ"ג.

Siman Raish Nun Zayin Sif Katan Mem Gimmel.

It's a long משנה ברורה,

Mishna Berura,

look at the very end.

The very last line.

ואם כפה כלי רחבה או שנותן עליה דף רחב ומכסה בבגדים מלמעלה.

ve-im kofeh kli rechava o she-nosein aleha daf rachav u-mechaseh bivgadim milamala.

So here the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura is saying if you find a way

like if you have a pot and you cover it with a long board

and then you're going to put the pot,

the cover on top of that,

that's not הטמנה hatmana because the cover's not touching the sides because you put

a board on top of the pot.

The cover's going to,

there's going to be a big gap of space between the pot and the

cover,

so that's not הטמנה.

hatmana.

That's what the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura is saying here.

So he says,

ואם כפה כלי רחבה או שנותן עליה דף רחב ומכסה בבגדים מלמעלה מותר אף

שמעמידו עד חציו בחול.

ve-im kofeh kli rechava o she-nosein aleha daf rachav u-mechaseh bivgadim milamala mutar af

she-ma-amido ad chetzyo be-chol.

So that's מותר mutar even though you're covering half the pot.

What do you mean even though you're covering half the pot?

Even without the board it would have been מותר mutar I'm covering half the

pot,

I didn't cover the whole thing.

סתירה.

stira.

And look again in the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura one more,

same סימן siman רנ"ז,

Raish Nun Zayin,

סעיף קטן מ"ז.

Sif Katan Mem Zayin.

Writes the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura here סעיף קטן מ"ז,

Sif Katan Mem Zayin,

יש אומרים דצריך להזהר שלא יטמין הקדירה בתנור בתוך הגחלים מכל צד דקרוי הטמנה

בדבר המוסיף הבל מחמת הגחלים גופא.

yesh omrim detzarich lehizaher shelo yatmin ha-kdera be-tanur besoch ha-gechalim mikol tzad dekarei hatmana

be-davar ha-mosif hevel machmas ha-gechalim gufa.

The משנה ברורה Mishna Berura says when you put a pot in the oven

and there are coals fueling the oven you need to make sure to not

put coals on every side of the pot because that would be הטמנה.

hatmana.

Now רבותי,

rabosai,

do you think they put coals on top of the pot?

How would they get to the pot if they put coals on top of

the pot?

So משנה ברורה Mishna Berura is saying despite the fact that there are not

coals on top of the pot,

you still can't put coals all around the pot because that would be הטמנה.

hatmana.

So problem.

This is essentially,

this is the סתירה stira in רבינו תם.

Rabbeinu Tam.

Is it רובו rubo or is it כולו?

kulo?

And the משנה ברורה Mishna Berura is giving us,

you know,

he's giving us different opinions at different places.

It's not clear.

The ארחות שבת Orchos Shabbos suggests a חילוק.

chilluk.

The ארחות שבת Orchos Shabbos suggests a מהלך mahalach to work all this out.

He says maybe there's a חילוק chilluk between הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל hatmana be-davar

ha-mosif hevel and הטמנה בדבר שאינו מוסיף הבל.

hatmana be-davar she-eino mosif hevel.

Maybe,

and this is a very logical חילוק,

chilluk,

the ארחות שבת Orchos Shabbos says maybe הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל hatmana be-davar ha-mosif

hevel is אסור assur if it's רובא ruba because as long as...

as long as רוב rov of the pot is covered in something that's מוסיף

הבל,

mosif hevel,

it's adding heat.

If it's just a minimal amount on the pot,

it's not really adding heat.

רוב Rov of the pot is covered,

that's adding heat.

But by דבר שאינו מוסיף הבל,

davar she'eino mosif hevel,

דבר שאינו מוסיף הבל davar she'eino mosif hevel doesn't add heat,

it just keeps the heat in.

Maybe for that you need the entire thing to be covered,

'cause if the pot,

if the top is open,

it's not going to be functioning to keep the heat in.

That's a very nice explanation.

The problem is it doesn't work.

Rabbi Wiederblank pointed out that what are you gonna say?

The משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah that we just read was about coals.

That the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah said that by the coals...

sorry,

it's not the one we just read,

I'm sorry.

In סימן רנ"ג סעיף קטן מ"ח.

Siman Reish Nun Gimmel Seif Katan Mem Ches.

That was the one that was going on the רמ"א.

Rama.

Right,

remember the רמ"א Rama said,

the מחבר Mechaber said that if the bottom of the pot is touching the

coals it's הטמנה.

hatmana.

And the רמ"א Rama said no,

as long as the top is exposed it's not הטמנה,

hatmana,

and on that רמ"א Rama the משנה ברורה Mishnah Berurah said as long as

the top is exposed even if the whole thing is covered it's not הטמנה,

hatmana,

so that sounded like even if רוב rov is covered it's not הטמנה hatmana

even though coals are דבר המוסיף הבל.

davar hamosif hevel.

So that's a קשיא,

kashya,

it's a פירכא pircha on the ערוך השולחן's Aruch Hashulchan פשט.

pshat.

So what are we going to do?

We're going to say צריך עיון.

tzarich iyun.

That's what we're going to do.

There's no good answer to this question.

This is a question,

there are also סתירות stiros in the חיי אדם.

Chayei Adam.

I didn't quote it to you but if you want to take look,

look at the חיי אדם Chayei Adam in כלל ב' סעיף ה' Klall Bais

Seif Hei and כלל כ' סעיף כ"ב,

Klall Chaf Seif Chaf Bais,

which is a סתירה stira in חיי אדם Chayei Adam about this question.

So it's not clear,

it's not clear exactly what the הלכה halacha should be and we're going to

leave it as a צריך עיון.

tzarich iyun.

This is going to become very relevant,

we'll see,

I don't want to talk למעשה למעשה l'maaseh l'maaseh yet because we're still laying

out the דינים.

dinim.

When we finish the דינים,

dinim,

which I thought we were going to do today but maybe now with our

shorter time we might not,

but at least tomorrow...

not tomorrow,

next time we'll at least start.

When we finish going through the דינים dinim we'll talk out very practical cases

where all things come up.

So I'll just give you like a foreshadowing,

this is the שאלה sheila of crockpots.

Right,

crockpots are open on the top but they are covered on all sides.

Even if you put in the rocks and elevated it a little bit,

so is רובו rubo uncovered or...

so that's...

that's going to be the discussion about...

we're going to have to discuss that directly and see what the פוסקים poskim

say about crockpots,

but I'm just showing you the significance of this discussion that we're having,

that's going to be a real-life למעשה l'maaseh case.

So,

you know,

don't write in your notes yet what the דין din is because we have

to dedicate a whole analysis to that practical question but we also first needed

to understand this background.

Okay,

another דין.

din.

Another very למעשה דין.

l'maaseh din.

גמרא Gemara on מ"ז ע"ב.

Mem Zayin Amud Bais.

All these דינים dinim are very למעשה,

l'maaseh,

הטמנה hatmana is the entire thing is very למעשה.

l'maaseh.

גמרא Gemara מ"ז ע"ב Mem Zayin Amud Bais says as follows.

The משנה Mishnah had listed things that are הטמנה,

hatmana,

examples of הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל,

hatmana b'davar hamosif hevel,

right,

if you remember the first משנה Mishnah in the פרק perek במה טומנין Bameh

Tomnin is דבר המוסיף הבל,

davar hamosif hevel,

the second משנה Mishnah was דבר שאינו מוסיף הבל.

davar she'eino mosif hevel.

So the משנה Mishnah listed things that are הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל.

hatmana b'davar hamosif hevel.

One of them was גפת.

gefes.

So the גפת gefes רש"י Rashi translated is like the פסולת psoiles of the

press where they made oil.

So the גמרא Gemara here asks the following question.

Look at the first גמרא Gemara on מ"ז ע"ב.

Mem Zayin Amud Bais.

איבעיא להו גפת של זיתים תנן אבל דשומשמין שפיר דמי או דילמא דשומשמין תנן

וכל שכן דזיתים.

Ibaiah lehu gefes shel zeisim tnan aval d'shumshamin shapir dami o dilma d'shumshamin tnan

v'chol shekein d'zeisim.

When we say גפת gefes is אסור assur as הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל,

hatmana b'davar hamosif hevel,

is that גפת gefes of olives,

but if it's גפת gefes of sesame it's okay?

I don't understand this,

why גפת gefes of olives is more מוסיף הבל mosif hevel than גפת gefes

of sesame,

I'm taking the גמרא's Gemara word for it,

I don't know,

there must be something behind this,

but I don't know how to explain it.

או דילמא דשומשמין תנן וכל שכן דזיתים,

O dilma d'shumshamin tnan v'chol shekein d'zeisim,

or are we saying that גפת gefes of שומשמין shumshamin is מוסיף הבל mosif

hevel and then כל שכן kol shekein גפת gefes of זיתים zeisim is מוסיף

הבל.

mosif hevel.

Answers the גמרא,

Gemara,

תא שמע דאמר רבי זירא משום חד דבי רבי ינאי קופה שטמן בה אסור

להניחה על גפת של זיתים.

Ta shma d'amar Rabbi Zeira mishum chad d'bei Rabbi Yannai kupa shetaman bah assur

lehannicha al gefes shel zeisim.

You're not allowed to put a box which you did הטמנה hatmana with,

you were מטמין,

matmin,

on top of גפת של זיתים.

gefes shel zeisim.

So שמע מינה של זיתים תנן,

shma mina shel zeisim tnan,

you see זיתים zeisim is the problem,

but שומשמין shumshamin is okay.

No.

לעולם אימא לך לעניין הטמנה דשומשמין נמי אסור.

Leolam eima lach l'inyan hatmana d'shumshamin nami assur.

No.

Really,

when if you're doing the הטמנה hatmana with גפת,

gefes,

whether it's גפת gefes of שומשמין shumshamin or גפת gefes of זיתים zeisim it's

אסור.

assur.

אבל לעניין אסוקי הבל דזיתים מסקי הבל דשומשמין לא מסקי הבל.

Aval l'inyan assukei hevel d'zeisim maski hevel d'shumshamin lo maski hevel.

But if you have your pot insulated in something else and you put it

on top of גפת,

gefes,

so then גפת של זיתים gefes shel zeisim is considered a דבר המוסיף הבל

davar hamosif hevel that it's adding heat to the pot,

but גפת gefes of שומשמין shumshamin will not.

גפת Gefes of שומשמין shumshamin is only considered דבר מוסיף הבל davar mosif hevel

if it itself is doing the insulation.

But if it's just like the heat source on the bottom and something else

is doing the insulation,

then Only גפת gephes of זיתים zeisim is considered דבר המוסיף הבל,

davar hamosif hevel,

not גפת gephes of שומשמין.

shumshumin.

So now תוספות Tosfos here,

מ״ח עמוד א׳,

Mem Ches Amud Aleph,

דיבור המתחיל דזיתים Dibbur Hamaschil d'Zeisim makes a very,

very important point.

תוספות Tosfos says that you see from here you're not allowed to do הטמנה

hatmana on top of a stove even if you have even on Friday,

right,

it's not שבת Shabbos yet,

and even if there's no שהיה shehiya problem,

right,

let's say it was גרופה וקטומה grufa u'ketuma or according to אשכנזים Ashkenazim it's

מאכל בן דרוסאי,

maachal ben drosai,

you're still not allowed to do הטמנה hatmana on top of the stove on

Friday even if your even if the thing you're insulating with is a דבר

שאינו מוסיף הבל.

davar she'eino mosif hevel.

אה,

Ah,

הטמנה בדבר שאינו מוסיף הבל hatmana b'davar she'eino mosif hevel is מותר mutar on

Friday?

No,

but if you're putting it on top of a דבר המוסיף הבל davar hamosif

hevel and you're doing הטמנה hatmana with something that's not מוסיף הבל,

mosif hevel,

that's called הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל hatmana b'davar hamosif hevel because there's הטמנה hatmana

and מוסיף הבל mosif hevel even though the הטמנה hatmana is not coming from

the thing that's מוסיף הבל.

mosif hevel.

Everyone following?

Can you say it one more time?

You're not allowed to put a pot,

do הטמנה hatmana with a pot on top of something that's a heat source,

not just to insulate it in a heat source.

That's the חידוש chiddush of תוספות.

Tosfos.

So תוספות Tosfos says what's the קשיא kasha on this?

קשיא kasha is everyone does it.

תוספות Tosfos says what are we going to do with the מנהג העולם?

minhag ha'olam?

Everyone does הטמנה hatmana on on on stovetops before שבת.

Shabbos.

אגב,

Agav,

you see an important כלל klal from this תוספות.

Tosfos.

You see that when there's a מנהג העולם minhag ha'olam as a קשיא,

kasha,

you don't just say,

אה,

ah,

ridiculous מנהג העולם.

minhag ha'olam.

No,

you take מנהגי ישראל minhagei Yisrael very seriously.

Where else do you see that in ש״ס?

Shas?

The first סוגיא sugya in ש״ס,

Shas,

right?

The first תוספות Tosfos in ברכות,

Brachos,

מאימתי קורין שמע בערבית,

me'ematai korin shema b'arvis,

צאת הכוכבים.

tzeis hakochavim.

תוספות Tosfos says but we don't do that.

So תוספות Tosfos doesn't say okay we're wrong.

תוספות Tosfos has a whole long תוספות Tosfos back and forth,

ברכות קריאת שמע.

birchos krias shema.

פסחים ק׳

עמוד א׳?

Pesachim kuf amud aleph?

פסחים ק׳

עמוד א׳.

Pesachim kuf amud aleph.

Okay.

So that's a that's a yeah,

that's an important כלל klal to to realize.

תוספות Tosfos takes these מנהגים minhagim very seriously.

So what's the answer though?

What's the answer to the question?

תוספות Tosfos gives two answers.

Answer number one תוספות Tosfos quotes from the ר״י Ri that the איסור issur

is only with גפת gephes but not on a on a stovetop because when

it comes to גפת,

gephes,

there's a concern that you might actually come to be מטמין matmin in the

גפת gephes itself,

but on a stovetop you can't be מטמין matmin in it,

so that so that would not be a problem.

רבינו ברוך Rabbeinu Baruch gives a different answer.

רבינו ברוך Rabbeinu Baruch says there's a difference between גפת gephes and a stove

in the sense that גפת gephes is itself a heat source.

A stovetop is only heat source because it has fire and the fire is

progressively getting weaker and weaker.

Right?

The longer the fire goes,

the closer it is to going out.

So the גפת gephes is getting stronger and stronger,

the fire's getting weaker and weaker.

That's why a stovetop is better than גפת.

gephes.

The ר״ן Ran gives a different answer to this question.

The ר״ן,

Ran,

כ״א עמוד ב׳

Kaf Aleph Amud Beis in the דפי הרי״ף,

dapei haRif,

דיבור המתחיל גפת,

Dibbur Hamaschil gephes,

quotes the רמב״ן Ramban that the it's only אסור assur if the pot is

touching the stove.

But if you have a gap of airspace,

it's going to be מותר.

mutar.

Then the ר״ן Ran quotes רבינו יונה Rabbeinu Yona who says no,

even if there's a gap of airspace,

it's going to be אסור.

assur.

The רשב״א Rashba agrees with רבינו יונה Rabbeinu Yona and he says you can't

say like the רמב״ן Ramban because if you said like the רמב״ן Ramban that

it's only אסור assur when the when it's touching the coals,

so then even if it wasn't insulated by something else,

just touching the coals would be אסור.

assur.

He's assuming הטמנה במקצת הוי הטמנה.

hatmana b'miktzas hvei hatmana.

Could be the רמב״ן Ramban was assuming הטמנה במקצת לאו הטמנה.

hatmana b'miktzas lav hatmana.

That goes back to that מחלוקת.

machlokes.

Fine.

How do we פסקן הלכה למעשה?

pasken halacha l'maaseh?

Why is this such a critical question?

Because this also comes up all the time.

We're going to have to discuss this again after we lay out all the

דינים,

dinim,

we'll we'll discuss how the פוסקים poskim address the the actual contemporary cases that

come up.

But you ever see those לכבוד שבת קודש l'kavod Shabbos kodesh hot plate covers?

Anyone know what I'm talking about?

You put food on the hot tray before שבת,

Shabbos,

the לכבוד שבת קודש l'kavod Shabbos kodesh cover the hot tray.

That's this.

That's ממש mamash this.

Right?

The hot tray cover is something that's הטמנה בדבר שאינו מוסיף הבל.

hatmana b'davar she'eino mosif hevel.

It's there for the purpose of keeping the heat in,

that's why it's there.

And the hot tray is a heat source.

So that's literally this שאילה.

shayla.

So how does the שולחן ערוך Shulchan Aruch פסקן?

pasken?

סימן רנ״ז סעיף ח׳.

Siman Reish Nun Zayin Seif Ches.

אע״פ שמותר להשהות

קדירה על גבי כירה שיש בה גחלים על פי

הדרכים שנתבארו בסימן רנ״ג,

אם הוא מכוסה בבגדים,

אע״פ שהבגדים אינם מוסיפים הבל מחמת עצמן,

מכל מקום מחמת אש שתחתיהם מוסיף הבל ואסור.

Af al pi shemutar lehashos kedeira al gabei kira sheyesh bah gechalim al pi

hadrachim shenisba'aru b'siman reish nun gimel,

im hu mechuseh b'vegadim,

af al pi shehabegadim einam mosifim hevel machmas atzman,

mikol makom machmas eish shetachteihem mosif hevel v'assur.

So it's going to be.

We're going to have to again,

so,

we're going to אם ירצה השם,

im yirtzeh Hashem,

we're going to discuss all these things directly,

but we have to just,

we have to be familiar enough with the דינים dinim before we could see

how the פוסקים poskim work all the דינים dinim together.

Fine.

Maybe one or two more דינים dinim for today.

I'm sorry,

we're going to have to end,

end early.

Somebody is so upset with that דין din of הטמנה,

hatmanah,

that's why,

he didn't want me to finish the rest of the שיעור.

shiur.

So,

מ"ח עמוד א'.

mem chet amud aleph.

מ"ח עמוד א' mem chet amud aleph is,

yeah,

this is a quick one,

מ"ח עמוד א'.

mem chet amud aleph.

There's just,

we just have to get it down,

get it,

be aware of it,

but this,

this one is not,

not so,

not as למעשה.

le'maiseh.

Second to the top line of מ"ח עמוד א'.

mem chet amud aleph.

רבא ורב זירא איקלעו לבי ריש גלותא.

Rava ve'Rav Zeira ikla'u le-vei resh galusa.

Rava and Rav Zeira visited the resh galusa's house.

חזו לההוא עבדא דאנח כוזא דמיא אפומא דקומקומא.

Chazu le'hahu avda de'anach kuza de'maya apuma de'kumkuma.

They saw an עבד eved who was putting some type of pitcher of water

on top of a קומקומא.

kumkuma.

נהז ביה רבא Nahas lei Rava and Rava got really upset at him.

So,

אמר ליה רב זירא מאי שנא ממיחם על גבי מיחם.

amar lei Rav Zeira mai shna mimicham al gabei micham.

Rav Zeira said,

but I'm allowed to put a מיחם micham on top of a מיחם,

micham,

right?

These are all different types of utensils.

There's a כוזא,

kuza,

there's a קומקומא,

kumkuma,

and there's a מיחם.

micham.

So a מיחם micham on top of a מיחם micham is okay,

but a כוזא kuza on top of a קומקומא kumkuma is not okay.

What's the difference?

So אמר ליה,

amar lei,

he says the difference is התם אוקומי קא מוקים הכא אולודי קא מוליד.

hasam ukumi kamokim hacha ulodi kamolid.

What,

what does that mean?

מחלוקת.

machlokes.

תוספות Tosafos in דיבור המתחיל מאי dibbur hamaschil mai says that what's going on

here is nothing to do with הטמנה.

hatmanah.

This is a בישול bishul שאלה shayla that the,

if you take a cold כוזא kuza and you put it on top of

a hot קומקומא kumkuma in order to heat up a little bit,

but not to cook,

it's אסור assur to do that,

גזירה gezeirah you might leave it there till it cooks.

So that's תוספות Tosafos פשט.

pshat.

Nothing to do with הטמנה.

hatmanah.

רבינו יונה Rabbeinu Yona however,

quoted in the ר"ן מ"ח עמוד א' Ran mem chet amud aleph and in

the דפי הרי"ף dapei HaRif דיבור המתחיל ומקשו dibbur hamaschil umakshu and also the

רשבא Rashba in דיבור המתחיל אמר ליה,

dibbur hamaschil amar lei,

the second דיבור המתחיל אמר ליה,

dibbur hamaschil amar lei,

they say it is a הטמנה hatmanah שאלה.

shayla.

They say the case is that there was a בגד beged on top of

this קומקומא kumkuma covering it and the case is he,

he put the כוזא kuza under the בגד beged on top of the,

on top of the קומקומא.

kumkuma.

So that's הטמנה בדבר המוסיף הבל hatmanah bedavar hamosif hevel because the heat from

the קומקומא kumkuma is very clearly heating up the כוזא.

kuza.

But the מיחם על גבי מיחם micham al gabei micham was different because there

it wasn't so clear the heat was heating it up.

Fine,

I just want to get that גמרא Gemara down,

that's just a quick one.

The תוספות Tosafos פשט pshat is quoted להלכה le'halacha in שולחן ערוך סימן שי"ח

סעיף י"ז.

Shulchan Aruch siman shin yud chet seif yud zayin.

Not a הטמנה hatmanah דין,

din,

that's a בישול bishul דין,

din,

that you're not allowed to take something cold and put it by a heat

source to heat up even just a little bit,

even before cooking,

because גזירה gezeirah you might leave it there and end up leaving there till

it cooks.

Fine.

Last דין din for today,

which is a very למעשה le'maiseh and then אם ירצה השם im yirtzeh Hashem

next week,

so we'll pick up next week,

we're going to have to do,

I was hoping to finish all of them today,

but since we're not going to have time,

we're going to have to finish up two,

maybe three more דינים dinim next week and then start the way the פוסקים

poskim attack the contemporary cases.

But one very,

very למעשה le'maiseh דין,

din,

we'll end with this:

תוספות מ"ח עמוד א' דיבור המתחיל דזיתים Tosafos mem chet amud aleph dibbur hamaschil

de'zeitim says that there is only an איסור,

issur,

הטמנה hatmanah only applies if the covering is touching the pot.

But if there is air space between the pot and the covering,

that is not הטמנה hatmanah and that's פסק'ן להלכה pasken le'halacha in שולחן ערוך

סימן רנ"ז סעיף ח'.

Shulchan Aruch siman resh nun zayin seif chet.

So it's very important as well to keep in mind in all these הטמנה

hatmanah cases.

הטמנה hatmanah is only even relevant if the covering is touching the pot.

Okay,

I apologize,

we have to end here.

אם ירצה השם im yirtzeh Hashem next week we'll pick up.