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Hosts Kelly & Erin are friends from childhood, reconnected over their love for deep conversation and life. They'll cover topics like adult friendship, self-improvement, and raising kids.
Season 2, Episode 3
And we're live. Hey, how's it going? Hey. Good, good good, good. What? What do you have for question of the day segment today? Um, okay. So it's going to be a bit of a long introduction to our question today. Um, I really love this artist. Um, his name is Jacob Collier, and, um, I saw him in concert last summer. Ended up going by myself because I, um, I just there was no one for me to go with at the last minute. And so I knew I wanted to see him, and it was the most incredible experience. Um, he sings with his audiences a lot. So he did kind of like a quite he kind of made a choir out of the audience and, uh, separated us into sections, and, um, we were just singing like oohs and o's, but at different, um, with different notes. So we were kind of like, you know, creating harmonies together. And so he does this at all of his concerts, and that was so magical. But, uh, he was recently at the Grammys. Uh, he was nominated for album of the year. Uh, did not win in case spoiler alert here. But he didn't win. Beyonce won in any case. He was, um, he does have Grammys, but, um. Uh, he was there, so, uh, he did a podcast with, uh, Simon Sinek. Um, what's the name of it? I know I just, like a Bit of optimism is the name of the podcast I can link in, in our show notes. And, um, I part of what he talked about was how creativity is. Well, Simon presented him with the idea that creativity is making order out of chaos. So you have 88 keys on the piano, and you know, if you have like a two year old who's just plunking, you know, banging on the piano, it doesn't sound good. It sounds very chaotic. There's no sense in it. Um, and then as you become an artist on the piano, then you make songs and you can improvise, but there's a certain order to it, right? But then on the other side, we have how, uh, if there is too much order in something. So let's say a job that you've been doing for 20 years, and it's the same thing day in, day out there, you know, it's just drudgery. There is no, uh, there's no fun to it. There's no, uh. Critical thinking to it. And, um, in order to be creative in that space, you need to break out of that somehow. And so it can it kind of can go both ways. Um, and anyway, all of this made me think about how important it is to have an element of play in our lives and have, um, have some sort of venture or, um, project or something that really is about, um, that really is about making sure that you're not taking yourself too seriously and like, you are putting effort into, uh, breaking the mold of whatever, whatever your mold is, I guess. Um, give me just one second to handle this. Okay, so, uh, yes. I think it's so important that we don't just go through the motions of our every day that we have a sense of play in our lives. And so my question for you, and the question I want to answer today is about, um, is about play and how you incorporated play into your life throughout the last week. Mm. Well, I felt like when you introduced this topic, I was like, shoot, she's gonna catch me lying down. Where was I? I have not. I have not played. Um, certainly not in the last week. But then. Then I did remember two things came to mind. One is I watched my 18 month old niece on Tuesdays, and she has brought a lot of play back into my life. Um, just because it's like the simple get out blocks, build towers and knock them down, you know, that kind of thing. But, um, I'm far removed from that. My youngest is nine, and so to have that, like, come back into my life has brought so much joy, um, because that that simplicity of play just, you know, hasn't been around for me for a long time. Um, the other thing I did remember is, is last week, um, since we recorded, I did sit down and write some poetry again, uh, which for me is very much like play. Uh, it's like, you know, just playing with words and and getting to, um. Twist them around, if you will. I don't think I don't think I finished either of the poems I wrote, but, um, but yeah, it felt good to, like, bring that out. I it's been, I think, you know, I think the last poem I wrote was December, so it's been a minute, but cool that. Yeah, those are the two areas that I have seen play lately. How about how about for you? Cool. Okay, so one challenge I will give to, um, to you about, like, the building towers and knocking them over thing. Not because I don't think that that was play for you, but I know for myself, a lot of times I can go through the actions of playing without actually without actually playing without actually, like, being present, um, with my, with my kids, because my mine are younger and oftentimes they will like, ask to do, you know, ask me to play a game with them or, um, whatever. And I can go through the motions of playing without really putting my heart into it, kind of. And then, yeah, it's completely different when I spend even ten minutes or, you know, something short and like, just be goofy, like, mom, you play the baby and I'll be the mom. Okay, great. And, like, actually pretend to play a baby and throw a fit on the floor or pull their hair or, you know, like, whatever things come to mind, but just very like. An uninhibited, I think is what comes to my mind. Um, and my kids like that more too. I feel like we can connect a lot better because we're being more, um, more of ourselves, I guess. Mhm. Um, so, so yeah, that, uh, I just mentioned that because I know that, um, I'm assuming we have moms with young kids who are listening to and like, there are, there are ways that you can use your kids play time to also play, which is which is amazing. Um, but like you said too, you also took time to, like, do some poetry. So there are lots of ways that you can play, um, on your own to for sure. And I think, um, to your point, I think that's why, you know, the blocks thing felt so new to me because I, I don't have littles anymore. So it felt like this new form of play that that isn't, you know, readily, readily available. Um, but I think you're right. You know, if you are in that season very in the thick of it, uh, certainly play becomes a little bit monotonous or can, um, yeah, in that way. But go ahead. What were you going to say? Okay. So my play and the reason another reason why I thought of this is because I decided to take my watercolors to my three year olds gymnastics class last night. I don't have to go into the class, so, but I do have to be there in case she has to go to the bathroom or anything. So, um, my five year old and I sat down at the like little kids table that they have in the gym, and, um, I worked on, like, drawing some faces from that book I told you about a few weeks ago. Yeah. Um, and they turned out terrible, like, so bad that I wanted to send you a picture of them and be like, can you like it? Is. It is hilarious how atrocious they are. Um, but it was really good for me. And even my five year old was like, what are you doing, mom, I don't understand, you know, like, why you're drawing them like that or who that's supposed to be. You know, she was like, trying to make sense of it. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just trying stuff, you know? And then. But then I witnessed her also tell me she was drawing a picture of, like, a sky and, um, birds. And then she was like, look, mom, this bird is really close. And she drew like a very large V for the close bird. And then she drew a teeny tiny one and she was like, look, mom, this bird is far away. Look, I'm trying stuff, you know? So, um, it was cool to, like, watch her kind of, um, emulate some of what I was doing. So that's definitely one way I feel like I. Made myself, I really did. I had to like, make myself play. I much would have rather just like hang out on my phone for the hour, but trying to do that last. So so yeah, that's one way that I played. It is hard. It is. I feel like it's difficult to keep myself in that, like more playful mode. Um, and also to feel like I'm worth keep like that. That's like a, a worthy way of spending my time, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I'm a hell of a lot happier when I take the time to do that, that's for sure. So. Agreed. Agreed. I find that so true as well. And I'm going to take that into this next week. We just had some kids go down sick today, which you know, to me is like, great, here goes the rest of our week. But I want to take that with me. So I'm gonna try to find a way to play every day. Yeah, that's a good idea. You'll you'll have to, uh, report back. Maybe next week we can do a follow up on this, because I need to do it, too. And just like a couple other of I. A couple other ideas. If you don't, if you're if, like, nothing is coming to your mind. Um, for me, makeup is another really easy way for me to play. You know, just playing with colors or a different lip color or, you know, um, dress like dress, um, fashion, you know, maybe try putting together some different stuff that's already in your wardrobe. Um. Having a playful conversation with a friend by text, like, you know, maybe say some off the wall things that you wouldn't normally say. Um, those kind of things feel good, and they're like, you know, it's it's, uh, they keep life interesting and, um, and beautiful and keeps you on your toes, which I think is, um, a really valuable part of life. Yeah. Yeah. So something I, I try to do that it was a tip from, from a photographer is to look for where the light falls. Um, especially in your everyday life. And, um, especially I'm noticing it again now that we've moved. You know, we moved into this new house in November. And so as I go throughout the day and enter into different rooms, I'm noticing where the light falls. And, um, and it used to be, you know, that's a prompt like, get out your camera and catch where the light's falling. Um, right. But yeah, it just is another way to wake up your senses. Of what? Where can I notice beauty around me and enter into it and play with it, you know? Yeah, totally. So anyways. Yeah. Cool. I think that's a part of, um, why I love our house and, like, opening up the windows or opening up the curtains in my. I'm in my room right now, and I love opening up the curtains in the morning, even if it's cloudy, because it totally transforms the room. I have, I have, um. Let's see. Uh, four. I can't count. Apparently, I have, uh, five windows in here, and so, um, it's really. And they, you know, they surround three sides of the, the room. And so, um, it brings so much light in and from all different angles. And. Yeah, I that's something I think is just so, uh, every time I do it, I notice different things, you know, like, oh, it's super cloudy or oh, it's so bright in here. And I notice, you know, just different. Whatever time I open up the curtains, I see different things. So anyway. Yeah. Love it. Well thank you. Thank you for that bit of inspiration and self-examination. I was good. Um, so today we're we're talking about values, um, and that values underlie so much of how we live our life and how we approach other people. And to to kick off the topic, I, um, I had a story come to mind of a moment when I. Realized I needed to choose like the values I hold to live out of, rather than maybe the right or wrong of my circumstances. Um, so I'm going to I'm going to kick off with that story. Some details are changed just to protect, uh, identity and the such, but but the core and the heart of stories remains true. Um, so right after Brian and I got married, we, um, I was, you know, early 20s, and we moved to Texas, and I was working at a children's home, and, um, one of our kids, one day, uh, a notebook was found of hers, and it was, it was full, full of, uh, graphic X-rated stories. And, um, the leadership above me was very alarmed, and, um, the situation just clearly needed to be addressed. So, um, their response to it was to take away all her notebooks, all her writing utensils, and shut it all down. And she was told she she wasn't allowed to write anymore. And, um. And the and the situation was was bigger also than what I'm explaining. But but that was the core of what was happening and and the response and um, I knew at the time like that the obsessiveness of what was happening wasn't okay. But also to shut it off probably wasn't the healthiest option for her to to just, you know, get that off for her. Um, but it it was certainly above my decision making. And, you know, I just was like a day worker who showed up for eight hours, so, um, I had very little say in the matter. Um, so, you know, a couple weeks had passed, and, um, I was cleaning our house one day, and I. And I found a folded up note, and I immediately knew it was hers. And I knew I knew it was another story. And I realized she had been writing again. And I sat there and just thought, what am I? What am I going to do with this? Because she'd been threatened with pretty severe consequences if she was found to be writing again. Um, and then, on the other hand, I was like, you know, this also isn't healthy for her to be hiding and living in this space. Right. And. And so I was like, man, am I, am I going to turn her in? Am I going to hide it and protect her? And I realized, like, my value wasn't either of those things like I wanted. I wanted her to find freedom. That's what I wanted. You know, I went into psychology in college to help at rescue. I don't think we've said it on the podcast this season at least. But you and I met in in boarding school. We were roommates in boarding school and middle school and high school. And, um, it just wasn't an environment where neither of us or the kids, I would say, never had help. You know, there was never someone you could go to. And so I had determined that I was going to be that as an adult. And I, you know, studied psychology, went to work with kids. And here I was an adult feeling like I actually didn't have the option to help her. And I didn't know what the answer was. But I sat there and, um, you know, I lived strongly by my faith. And so I just prayed. I just was like, what is what's the different answer here? You know, what can I do? And I and I felt I felt God gave me an answer immediately. So I headed outside and, um, turned the corner and she was there, standing in front of me. And I was very rarely did we ever have one on one, um, contact with a kid. You know, the the whole thing was designed that wouldn't happen. So I knew we probably had less than a minute to talk, and I just handed her the note and I said, hey, is this yours? Are you are you writing stories again? And the immediate fear that came on her face, you know, told me that she was and it was hers. And, um, and I just looked at her and I said, it's okay. And I handed her the note and I said, next time you write a story. I want. I want you to just put a hero in it. Put someone in it. Who comes to save you? Mm. And she said, she said back. She's like. But that's never actually happened. And I it blew me away one. To hear her say that. But how old was she. Um, I won't say. I'll keep that. Okay. Um, but I just said. I said, if you don't start putting heroes in your stories, you're not going to see a hero when they come to show up in your real life. I said, start putting them in your stories so that you can find them when they come. And she said okay. And then sure enough, someone you know walked, walked around the corner and we parted ways. And, um, for the rest of my time working there, she started bringing me her stories, and she, she would hand me papers, just be like, would you read this? Would you read this? And all all the, um, violence was gone from her stories. Every single one of them had had a hero. And, um, and I think it it changed from what she was feeling to what she wanted most in life. Right. That's that's what she started to write about. And, um. And I. And I'll never forget that, because that's what I wanted. Not that it solved her problems, not that it, you know, took away issues, but for that one instance of the story that she was living in and telling herself, it did change, you know, what the story she was able to tell herself, she she was able to start writing about what she wanted most in life, not what she had experienced. And, um, and from then on, I realized that I didn't have to live in such a right or wrong thinking of the situation I was in, you know, like, yeah, either I think my leadership is wrong and I'm going to hide or protect from them, or I'm going to follow what they're saying and do the right thing. You know, it was like, no, I can choose what I'm valuing and find a creative answer within that to live from that place. Yeah. You know, 100%. Um, and that's, that's kind of what we want to talk about today is that is that underneath our life choices and underneath our beliefs, our value systems. And if we can tap into those values for ourselves, I think we'll find we we can maybe live more truly to ourselves. And I think if we are able to be curious. For other people, you know, especially people we tend to disagree with because I think in today's world, I mean, we've talked about this, but just everything's divisive and you belong in a box of how you vote, how you believe, how you, uh, who you support. And, um, and it's become this, this situation of right and wrong. But I think if we were able to be curious about, hey, what what do you value right now? Like what? What do you hold true that you, you wish you could see lived out in the world? I think we would find so much more common ground and, um, and maybe even a better way forward of like. Yeah, actually, I want to fight for that, too. Yeah, actually, that is a value I hold. Um, yeah, but it takes it takes curiosity and it takes maybe digging a layer deeper, um, to, to find what people are valuing and what our own values are. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I think discovering what your value system is, is. Kind of hard work. It is hard to work. It is hard work. You know, it's funny. My daughter came to me this past week and just started talking about brands. You know, because all the brands Uggs, Stanleys, Olas, whatever. And she just was like, I don't I don't want to always be chasing after this. Like, I don't want to need this. I don't, you know? She's like, I asked for these shoes and I don't even like them. It's just that everyone wears them, you know? Oh my God. So we, we we just have, like, a really great conversation of like, you know, I tried to buy all ethically made clothes. And so, you know, I just told her like, that's the value I have. And so those are the clothes I buy and that as a result is the style I wear. And it dictates a lot of my style. And then I just talked to like, but the other day I bought Nike pants and they're probably not ethically made, you know, so like I can't I'm not always living out of the place. I would like to. But I try to identify my values and live from that place. And, um, yeah, you know, it just was a really it was a sweet conversation to have with a 13 year old who just realized, like, hey, something feels not right in the way I'm living my own life. Um, you know, so, yeah. And it's kind of cool that she is figuring that out and, like, can articulate it to you. Yeah. Um, because I think, at least in my own world, I see, you know, a lot of people that it doesn't look like they've worked at, um. Articulating their values necessarily. So they're just living. And then I'm asking them questions about the choices that they're making. I wish I could think of a good example at the moment. I can't like, you know, why did you choose that daycare or um, um, why do you, you know, why do you buy organic milk or, you know, just questions like that, just to kind of understand, like how other people make decisions. Um, and oftentimes it's like, oh, I don't know. Or someone told me, I, you know, when I hear a lot is, well, someone told me it was important or someone told me I should do it that way. Um. And, you know, then I'm like, oh, okay. And then I realize, okay, well, that's I think I want to do it differently than that, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what would you say for you? Um. Like what what's a value you feel like you've been holding deeply lately or living out of or maybe wanting to live out of home? Yeah. Well, one that comes to mind that I feel like I'm always trying to balance is. Um. I don't even know how to articulate it very well. It's like. Never not fighting for myself. I think, um, not fighting for yourself. I'm trying to not make it a double negative, but I'm struggling. Always. Like, always thinking about, well, in that decision. Like, if it's something that involves me or something that impacts me, where am I accounted for? You know, where am I accounted for when we, um. Uh, redesign our living room. You know, like, am am I making sure that it's going to be a comfortable space for me? Am I making sure that I will, um, you know, not hate being in there because of the choice of speakers that we made that I think are so ugly that I, I mean, I realize it sounds silly, but like, truthfully, am I taking into consideration what I want and what I like? And, you know, because it is so easy and I, I think this is true for a lot of a lot of people. Um, it's so easy for me to think of myself last and, you know, think about like, well, what what's going to be fun for the kids? Um, what's going to, you know, make our house look cool. What's what is my husband want to do? And then not really even bring myself into the equation until basically, it feels like it's too late because I've already thought about everyone else. And now the things that I want don't really match that. Or not even knowing what I want because I didn't even. I haven't even sat down and thought about what I want. You know. Yeah. Yeah. So that's like a silly example. But of course, they're a lot deeper and more serious examples of that, like, you know, choices that can impact years of our life, like how many kids we have or, um, where our what kind of activities our kids do or, um, what I do for work, things like that, that, um. I think so often I've not even known what I wanted or what I cared about, because I didn't put any effort into thinking about that. Yeah. Um, so so, yeah, that's a value that I am trying to hold is always taking myself and what I want and my feelings into consideration because. And the reason why I think this matters is for, for two things. And I don't know if this is like another value or if it just kind of goes along with this one. The first reason is that I want my girls to not have to experience what I am, which is not knowing how to say what they want or not knowing what they want. Yeah. So that's the first thing is I don't want them to struggle like I feel like I do. Um, but the second reason is because I am a happier version of myself for my family when I'm not leaving out my own. Leaving myself out of the equation when we're making decisions for, you know, what our family is going to do. Um, and I married someone who does this really well. And, um, it it's I hesitate to say that it's just selfishness because I don't, I don't think, like, at the core, that's not what it is. It's like making sure that you can be the best version of yourself, like I was saying. But I think on the surface, it can kind of look like you're just being selfish, like, oh, you just don't want to do that because you don't care about us or you, you know, and like, really, it's like, no, it's actually that's really hard for me. And so I don't feel comfortable doing it. So like, I let's not do that. Let's find something else that everyone can enjoy, you know? Yeah. Am I making any sense? No. You are. I actually was going to say that I. I felt like it. It's it's a really beautiful value to have and a brave one because you're right. It can or people can interpret that as selfishness or arrogance or self-centeredness. And and it isn't because there are some people who yeah, that might be the issue and they need to learn to tone it back. But I think there's people like you and I, um, who very much have had to learn to see ourselves and to see ourselves in our own world. Um, you know, and we're learning that in our late 30s, at least, I'm still learning that as well. Like, oh, I'm spending my life and I'm not considering myself a part of it, really. Um, or I've spent years not considering myself into the equation. And so, um, it takes a lot of bravery to be able to recognize. No, this is actually a value and an important one. And like you were saying, such an important one to model for your kids, but also to show up as part of your family, you know, and and like you said, you're a better version because your needs and wants. Are getting to play a part as part of the family. You know, I think. I think, I think it's beautiful. I think something that really sucks in all of this, which is why I right now I'm feeling such a struggle with it, is because this means I'm not as emotionally available for my kids, because it takes me a lot of, like, a lot of, uh, time, I guess, and mental energy to figure out what I want. And sometimes it's a lot of just, like, doing. Not very much because I'm. Because I feel like I'm putting energy into what I'm trying, like, just what I'm mentally figuring out. And so, um, then I will then I'll start to feel like super guilty because I'll be like, oh, shoot. Like I didn't make like, you know, a dinner tonight that is, like, as healthy as it could be. Not like my kids aren't eating. They totally are. But, you know, like, I didn't put as much effort into dinner as they deserve, or that's what my my brain tells me. Uh, or, you know, like. We didn't get to, like, uh, my daughter is, um, competitive gymnast, and she wants to get to the gym 20 minutes before her class starts or her practice starts. And like, some days that's just not possible for me. And she is old enough now that she will, like, be really angry about it. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I, you know, like, we have a lot of other things going on, and I needed to make sure that I got stuff in the car for myself or whatever. And that's not okay with her. Like, you know, which is good. I mean, like, it's good for me to be challenged like that. Honestly, I don't think I don't have a problem with her, you know, expressing her thoughts about that. But that's the part, like, I think that it would be very easy for me to then come to the conclusion that, like, okay, then I shouldn't be doing that. I shouldn't be spending time thinking about what I need or what I want or whatever, because it's taking away from my family, you know? Yeah, but sacrificing myself entirely is doesn't work either. So for sure, there's a balance. Like for sure there are things where like, okay, you know what? Like today is not like I can't just give in to whatever it is I think I want today. Um, you know, like, I really need to dig deep and get these things done for my family, and I can make that choice, and that's great. And then there are other days where I can make the choice to, you know, really take the time to to, I don't know, relax to, you know, do something for myself or whatever. So. Right. I'm still trying to like, figure out what that balance is. Um, but as I say that I'm realizing, like, balance isn't I don't really think. I don't really think balance is a thing. I think it's just more that I need to. Let go of some of the guilt of that and, um. Yeah, just learn just, I guess, like, learn how to to move through that rather than holding on to the guilt, just like, see that as, like, oh, that's an interesting feeling. And then keep moving, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And and I think too, just like coming back to like, no, this is, this is a value I hold for myself and, you know, down the road recognize you're giving your daughter if she's going to have a family someday or if she's running a company, you're giving her permission to also consider her needs. You know, when she becomes an adult and is a leader and is, you know, guiding other people, she she's going to recognize and be able to be like, oh, no, I have needs that also need to be met, that don't need to be laid out on the table, because that's all that was modeled to her, you know? Yeah, that is very true and partially why I think it's hard for us, um, because we grew up in an environment. It wasn't just our moms. It was, you know, every, uh, every person there was supposed to be making this huge sacrifice of their whole life, basically for the benefit of these people who really couldn't have cared less about us in a lot of cases. So, like, I don't like it's just there's a lot there, obviously. And it's it's complicated. But that is part of it is like being raised in a culture where sacrifice is like the, the ultimate value. Um, then it is really, really difficult to to model something different, you know. Yeah, yeah. And to navigate that. So yeah. Yeah, I would say that those, those are important values. I mean, I, I didn't talk a lot about that for myself, but I would say I equally have been learning that and trying to live from that as a value for myself and for my family. Um, but I think just a great example of how if we can identify what our values are. We'll choose to live differently. And, um, and I think that it starts there. I think it starts with us identifying that for ourselves and then being able to move out and be curious about that for other people. Um, you know, from the from the place they're coming from. So we hope, um, our audience will take that with them, take this into the week with you and think about, um, maybe a value that you hold deeply or one you want to be holding and, and see how you can actually put that into practice. And are you actually living from that place, or are you, you know, living from maybe a value you don't actually really hold? Yeah. That's a good thought for this week. Love it. Thanks, Kel. Yeah. Thank you. Thanks. Thanks for sharing. And, uh, we'll catch you next week. Sounds good.