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Career education is a vital pipeline to high demand jobs in the workforce. Students from all walks of life benefit from the opportunity to pursue their career education goals and find new employment opportunities. Join Dr. Jason Altmire, President and CEO of Career Education Colleges and Universities (CECU), as he discusses the issues and innovations affecting postsecondary career education. Twice monthly, he and his guests discuss politics, business, and current events impacting education and public policy.
Jason Altmire [00:00:04]:
Welcome to another edition of Career Education Report. I'm Jason Altmire. We have talked quite a bit about the short term Pell Grants, also known as the workforce Pell. And the Congress tried very hard last year to try to get that done and didn't quite get it over the finish line. But with a new Congress and a new president, we feel like there is a very good opportunity for there to be enactment of a bill and then becoming a law relating to Workforce Pell grants that would allow students who attend shorter term programs to qualify. So we're going to talk a little bit about that today and we're also going to talk about the Education Design Lab which is involved in this debate. But I also want to just kind of introduce the audience to the Education Design Lab and the work that they do because they're doing some interesting work all across higher education. So our guest today is Kevin Stump.
Jason Altmire [00:01:04]:
He is the Vice President of Impact at the Education Design Lab, which is based in Washington, D.C. and it's a nonprofit that designs workforce models based upon a variety of factors. And I'll let Kevin talk about that. But Kevin, thank you so much for being with us.
Kevin Stump [00:01:23]:
Great. Thanks to be here, Jason. And thanks for including the Education Design Lab in such an important conversation. We've been around for about 10 years working across the country to, as we say, design the future of education towards the future of work. And so we really use a tested human centered design process that really centers those closest to the problem in solving it. And so what that means today is as the majority of learners enrolled in post secondary education are doing so in a system that wasn't initially designed for them, we call them the new majority learner. And so we work primarily with community colleges that are serving, you know, parenting learners, opportunity youth, undocumented learners, rural learners and so on. We kind of have articulated, you know, a definition around what it means to be the new majority learner.
Kevin Stump [00:02:18]:
Again, this is really reacting to the reality that today's system isn't really adequately serving today's learner. And so we've launched projects like the Community College Growth Engine that is really function to scale what we call micro pathways, which is a new kind of credential that is rapidly scaling across about 100 community colleges just over the last couple years. And really the micro pathway model ensures that all learning counts. So these are stackable credentials that include both the soft skills and those technical skills. Micro pathways are co designed with educators, learners and employers. Micro pathways are verified by labor market information and other regional data to Ensure that we're supporting community colleges to build programs that are ultimately meeting regional demand. And what we're starting to see more of is that just the process across these colleges of building these kinds of new employer validated skills based models is resulting in other transformation at the college that better supports their alignment towards industry. Which is a really exciting kind of insight from this work as it's only been kind of on its feet for two or three years now.
Kevin Stump [00:03:41]:
And then the lab also has a thesis around skills visibility. We believe that it is paramount to the success of new majority learners and to industry to, to make sure that skills are visible. And by that we mean that could look like translating student learning outcomes in the syllabus to skills that employers are articulating that they need. It could also mean that we are evolving the transcript to really look at digital skills wallets or learning and employment records or whatever that structure needs to be to ensure that there's a place where learners can keep all of their validated verified skills and competencies so that they are more equipped in the job market to showcase really that they're able to do the work that employers are saying that they need. So you know, we've been, like I said, Around 10 years using human centered design to really co test, co build big ideas that will really tighten alignment between education and what industry needs.
Jason Altmire [00:04:44]:
You talked a couple of times about new majority learners and you kind of touched on what that means. Am I to interpret a new majority learner is someone that is pursuing an alternative educational path other than the traditional four year path that for so long is where students were directed to.
Kevin Stump [00:05:07]:
Yes. And really new majority learner doesn't need to be exclusive to those that want to pursue short term credentials. You know, what we see is that there's a lot of interest even in those pursuing degree programs. Right. And so for example, most colleges today are still figuring out how to better serve the, as they call it, the non traditional adult learner. Right. So that's moving from a mindset where, you know, faculty are only teaching 9 to 4, Monday through Thursday and moving to a place where programs are now offered in the evenings and on weekends. And so that could be for a degree program or a matriculated learner.
Kevin Stump [00:05:48]:
It could also be for, you know, those shorter term stackable credentials. But either way, because there's this demand from learners, all sorts of learners, adult learners, working learners, whatever it may be, you know, for programs that better meet them where they are and help them get to where they want to go, colleges are really Needing to update when and how they offer and deliver programming to again, better meet their mission. And that's partly why we work a lot with community colleges, because they are well positioned in every community across the country to really play that role in meeting learners where they are and really meeting that workforce mandate that has always been part of their storied history.
Jason Altmire [00:06:35]:
When you talk about the support that Education Design Lab provides to your educational partners, community colleges and others, what does that support look like? How are you assisting them?
Kevin Stump [00:06:48]:
We show up with a lot of resources. One of them is our kind of tested human centered design process and all of those tools. So, you know, just having a third party come in and help facilitate a partnership development with an employer or a faculty, or work internal to the college and help figure out how to better bridge the kind of workforce division with the traditional academic affairs division. Just having a kind of neutral convener and facilitate is something that our college partners tell us is very valuable. But for example, we also have something called the T profile tool, which if you think of the letter T, the top of the T articulates those soft skills, the vertical, the bottom of the T articulates those hard skills. And we use that tool where we have an employer come into a session with their job description, we have the college partners in the room with us, and we actually facilitate a live session that's pulling out of the employer, what are those critical skills? And then they build a T profile that articulates those skills. Right. This is about making those skills visible so then educators can use that T profile to then inform the curriculum and the program design of whatever pathway we're building here.
Kevin Stump [00:08:11]:
We also bring a lot of data and research with us. And so we're constantly studying and looking at other evidence based models. So for example, the micro pathway model, we looked closely at apprenticeships, at sectoral employment programs, at Career Pathways programs, and so all of those three, for example, have a whole body of evidence over the last two or three decades, if not longer, that we use to really inform the design criteria of the micro pathway. Knowing that there really is no national data infrastructure that can really measure and track over time the efficacy of these non degree short term workforce programs. Which is why we also launched what we call the Data Collaborative for a Skills Based Economy. And the Data Collaborative is a partnership that's powered by the lab, but brings together a number of players like National Student Clearinghouse, the irs, Georgetown Credential Engine and other partners. And this is to really build a methodology and an infrastructure that can actually understand the efficacy of these programs using verifiable administrative labor and wage data. Really the difference here is did you get a job and are you making more than you did before you took the program? And that data importantly isn't about self reported survey data from learners, which is what most of the data is for non degree short term programs.
Kevin Stump [00:09:42]:
And so we are trying to really tackle this kind of bigger challenge because we understand that to scale valuable programs like micro pathways, you need the data and the ROI to unlock the public funding that's justifiable to scale these programs.
Jason Altmire [00:09:59]:
And so you're talking about a lot of work, you're doing some consulting, you're doing some funding, you're doing heavy data research. I saw on the website there there's quite a bit of staff involved at the organization. Where does the funding come from? How do you receive your funding? As an organization?
Kevin Stump [00:10:21]:
We are lucky enough to have strategic investment partners that are really all over the country, a lot of different national foundations as well as local regional funders, which is really important to us that there's kind of local skin in the game either at a regional or state level to really support some of this innovation. So whether it's the Gates foundation or the Beacon foundation in Colorado know, or any number of kind of local funders across the country, but primarily we are foundation driven in which means the resources you see on our website are open access on purpose.
Jason Altmire [00:10:57]:
You mentioned the idea of the efficacy of short term workforce programs and that's been part of the debate, a huge part of the debate on the short term Pell in Congress there is widespread bipartisan support for the idea of a Pell grant for shorter term programs which does not currently exist. But there are critics, there are some who say that the shorter term programs, that there's a lack of data that shows they're successful. I do not subscribe to this because there is, but there are some who have expressed concern. You have as an organization and you personally have done a lot of work on this. What are your findings with regard to the efficacy of short term program?
Kevin Stump [00:11:48]:
The reason that we've designed that micro pathway the way that we did and the reason that we were reliant on all of the body of evidence related to apprenticeships, sectoral employment pathways, career pathway models is because we know that millions of dollars went into studying the effectiveness of those programs because again there lacks that national data infrastructure. And so we really wanted to make sure that we were starting from what the evidence in the database already told us, right? Starting from what we knew and so we've kind of anchored ourselves in other models that have worked. What's new about the micro pathway is ensuring that we're building in those durable skills, right, those soft skills, and ensuring that we are creating stackable credentials. And in this context it really means credit bearing. There really shouldn't be many workforce development credentials out there that aren't stackable to some degree, even if it's satisfying liberal arts or part of a general education curriculum. Whatever it is, we have to start recognizing and counting when learning happens. And so that credit attachment is really important. Which maybe brings me to the conversation on short term Pell.
Kevin Stump [00:13:11]:
If I think about what New York State has done recently in passing a new law that expands their tuition assistance program, which is essentially their version of Pell at the state level, then it's really a model I think that we're going to start to see across the country. And it's also something that should really accelerate the adoption of short term Pell because they've done this, they figured out how to give needs based grant funding for short term micro credentials that are credit bearing and can stack to a degree. But the idea is that you can get one of those micro credentials in the SUNY or the CUNY system in New York and get a job afterwards. And so we're seeing the proliferation of these micro credentials across the system. Which is another important lesson for us to learn on the power of moving towards short term workforce Pell is that it will incentivize colleges and universities to design their programs in such a way that will truly realize a vision of stackable career pathways. You think 20 years ago, 15 years ago, when the idea of career pathways started to, to take hold, I've kind of been asking from a systems perspective, have we never realized this idea as a vision? Right. We never fully realized the career pathways vision in this country because we never structurally attached credit to the dollars. And so here we are with this opportunity to follow with what New York did in really attaching the funding to, to credit and to outcomes in employment and wage outcomes.
Kevin Stump [00:14:58]:
But unfortunately, as we've stated, and the reason that we've launched this data collab is right now they still don't have a way to measure the efficacy of these programs. And so regardless of if and when, and I'm confident and optimistic that like we're ready to pass short term Pell, immediately following that needs to be the conversation around data and how we're going to ultimately measure at scale the efficacy of these programs. And what we measure is a Good conversation for us to have. It's not just employment, it's not just wage gain, but it needs to be about measuring upward mobility. And if we know that we need lifelong learning, lifelong skilling relationships, whatever you want to call them, then we need to make sure that we're giving credit when credit is due.
Jason Altmire [00:15:48]:
And a big part of the debate in Washington about short term Pell is about outcomes and accountability. And there was in the beginning of the discussion related to short term Pell a much larger conversation about how do you ensure that it's only high quality programs? Because the last thing anybody would want is for students to receive public money and take that to a low quality program, waste public money, and more importantly, waste their own time and resources and educational experience. So guardrails were put in very strict guardrails where it would be very difficult for a program to qualify for a student to be able to use short term Pell grant money. And we support that with our association. We support universal accountability and outcomes measures that should apply to all schools in all sectors who are participating in those programs. But, you know, the devil's in the details. So how do you measure accountability? So I guess that, Kevin, is what I would ask you is what do you feel for these type of programs are the most important outcome measures that should be considered and implemented as the guardrails to, to ensure accountability for a short term Pell?
Kevin Stump [00:17:12]:
That's the question. Right. And I would just also want to separate out the conversation of quality because we often talk about program quality, but when we listen carefully to the conversation, it becomes about job quality. And all of a sudden the colleges and their programs are responsible for leading people to these quality jobs. And you could use any number of indicators there to define what that is. But the. But higher ed talent supply can't be responsible for job quality. Right.
Kevin Stump [00:17:46]:
And I'll give you an example. Before I came to the lab, I was vice president of workforce development at a community college in New York. And when you look at the labor market information data and you talk to employers, we'll just give you an example. In healthcare, they will tell you we need home health aides. Well, if you've ever looked at the wage of a home health aid, it's abysmal. Right. The college can't fix that. That sector has a very low paying, high demand occupation.
Kevin Stump [00:18:15]:
What we can do is try and facilitate the regional employers to make sure that if you're getting a home health aid certificate and you're getting that job, that that eventually could lead you to Something next. And so, you know, as we think about accountability, we have to be really careful and precise about who's accountable for what. So for short term Pell and what colleges should be accountable for, I mean, we would agree that there should be the same accountability metrics or the funding, regardless of who's offering it, quite frankly. And those accountability metrics need to include increased upward mobility. And that is not just about employment and wage gain, which is part of this. It is also ensuring that when somebody's leveraging short term Pell that it's not just done that actually they can take that because they're given some kind of credits or some entryway into the next step. And that next step might take them two or three years when they want to come back and reskill or upskill. But we need to ensure that learners are leaving with credit and that they're getting credit so that they can return back and pursue whatever's next.
Kevin Stump [00:19:28]:
And it's credit doesn't need to be a degree, could be a certificate program or whatever it is. But we have to stop siloing how learning happens across the country. And I would say there's also another accountability metric here which is around your typical completion and retention rates. We know that higher education has a lot of work to do to improve the most basic outcomes. And a lot of what this funding can do in the way that it's organized again will incentivize and accelerate how colleges are organizing their programs to create a more bite sized, stackable learning pathway experience, which is what learners are saying they want.
Jason Altmire [00:20:11]:
I know in closing that your organization is more involved in helping schools than in lobbying Congress and working it from that angle. But now that we're into a new year, we have a new Congress, a new president, but short term Pell is back on the agenda. Just asking you to kind of handicap what you think the chances are for short term Pell to make it through the finish line and actually see enactment in the current Congress.
Kevin Stump [00:20:40]:
Yeah, I think this is a new year, a new administration, a new Congress. And short term Pell isn't a new idea. But the moment has arrived where we are hearing loud and clear from not just community college leaders and our college partners and employers, kind of these funding streams that can unlock talent pipelines and all of that we're hearing from learners. And as learners become savvier consumers, they are showing up with different and smarter expectations. And so I actually think that there's this kind of ground up pressure that's finally meeting this moment where it will be unavoidable for members of Congress not to be considering supporting short term. PELL and I think you're seeing that play out in different headlines. You're seeing that play out in different enrollment patterns when you look at how learners are enrolling in short term programs and what's fueling that. So I actually, you know, I think because this is a bipartisan issue, because this is a workforce issue, you know, this doesn't need to get lost in all of the drama and politics in this very moment around higher ed writ large.
Kevin Stump [00:21:54]:
And so, you know, we're kind of excited to see what that means and optimistic about not just unlocking that funding so that we can support people at scale to access short term stackable pathways, but what it could mean to help accelerate broader evolution of higher education in general.
Jason Altmire [00:22:16]:
Could not agree more. And that is a great place to end. Kevin Stump, Vice President of IMPACT for the Education Design Lab if somebody wanted to find out more about the work of the Education Design Lab or get in touch with you, how would they do it?
Kevin Stump [00:22:32]:
Sure. Well, we are@eddesignlab.org you could also find us on LinkedIn. I'm also there. My contact is on our website, but would welcome any conversation with anybody interested in supporting this movement.
Jason Altmire [00:22:48]:
Kevin Stump, thank you for being with us.
Kevin Stump [00:22:50]:
Thank you.
Jason Altmire [00:22:58]:
Thanks for joining me for this episode of the Career Education Report. Subscribe and rate us on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. For more information, visit our website@career.org and follow us on Twitter at @CE. That's C-E-C-U-E-D. Thank you for listening.