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The Grazing Grass Podcast features insights and stories of regenerative farming, specifically emphasizing grass-based livestock management. Our mission is to foster a community where grass farmers can share knowledge and experiences with one another. We delve into their transition to these practices, explore the ins and outs of their operations, and then move into the "Over Grazing" segment, which addresses specific challenges and learning opportunities. The episode rounds off with the "Famous Four" questions, designed to extract valuable wisdom and advice. Join us to gain practical tips and inspiration from the pioneers of regenerative grass farming.
This is the podcast for you if you are trying to answer: What are regenerative farm practices? How to be grassfed? How do I graze other species of livestock? What's are ways to improve pasture and lower costs? What to sell direct to the consumer?
Welcome to the Grazing
Grass Podcast Episode 110.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
small, try things.
Be patient, because some of the soil
health principles takes a couple
of years to see the results of.
Cal: You're listening to the Grazing Grass
Podcast, sharing information and stories
of grass based livestock production
utilizing regenerative practices.
I'm your host, Cal Hardage.
You're growing more than grass.
You're growing a healthier
ecosystem to help your cattle
thrive in their environment.
You're growing your livelihood by
increasing your carrying capacity
and reducing your operating costs.
You're growing stronger communities
and a legacy to last generations.
The grazing management
decisions you make today.
impact everything from the soil beneath
your feet to the community all around you.
That's why the Noble Research
Institute created their Essentials
of Regenerative Grazing course to
teach ranchers like you easy to follow
techniques to quickly assess your forage
production and infrastructure capacity.
In order to begin
grazing more efficiently.
Together, they can help you grow
not only a healthier operation,
but a legacy that lasts.
Learn more on their website at noble.
org slash grazing.
It's n o b l e dot org
forward slash grazing.
On today's show we have Charles Rola
of the Noble Research Institute.
We discuss his journey from growing
up in ag and what he did there and
going to Oklahoma State University,
go Pokes, and then working for
the Noble Research Institute.
So we talk about his journey
and what they're doing at
the Noble Research Institute.
Really good episode.
After we talk about grazing
a little bit, one of his
specialties is pecan production.
So we talk about grazing and pecans.
So that's a great topic.
In fact, our bonus segment is even more on
the topic of pecans and getting started.
Before we talk to Chuck,
10 seconds about my farm.
We got rain last week,
which was much needed.
There were some tornadoes around,
but nothing was really close to me.
Tornadoes through
Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska.
We have those people in
our prayers and thoughts.
We have more rain coming this week
without the storms, I believe, so On
the farm, lambing has started for the
actual lambing season, not the accidental
one, and my goats have started kidding.
For the podcast, on deck, we
have Eli Mack of Mack Farms.
We're revisiting him
in next week's episode.
Wonderful episode.
He was on the podcast, I want to
say like three and a half years
ago, or maybe a touch longer.
So, really good catch up with
him and what he's doing now.
The week after we have Steve Kenyon on.
Both of those are wonderful episodes.
Also, we have a new Famous Four sponsor.
Kenco Farm Fence is our
Famous Four sponsor and we're
excited to welcome them in.
Enough of that.
Let's talk to Chuck.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Chuck, we want to
welcome you to the Grazing Grass Podcast.
We're excited you're here today.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
I'm excited Cal to
opportunity to visit with you.
Had the opportunity to visit with
you through one of the noble grazing
courses and had a lot of conversations
with you and really enjoyed the visit.
So I'm excited to be on
your podcast with you today.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Wonderful.
Chuck, to get started, can
you tell us a little bit about
yourself and what you're doing?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
So I'm a senior regenerative advisor
here with Noble Research Institute.
Um, I am on the grazing team, so
I'm one of the facilitators for
the grazing courses that Noble is
delivering to the participants.
And also on the development team.
So we're actually working on additional
grazing courses for the future and then.
In my background, I'm also the
pecan specialist here at Noble.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, wonderful.
Now, Chuck, you're doing
a lot of things there.
Is this where you imagine you would be?
Yes.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
Not straight out of school.
I had planned on going back home
and working on the family ranch.
I was the first kid in my immediate
family to graduate from college.
Once I got into college,
realized the opportunities
back home wasn't as promising.
Plentiful as I was hoping for.
Um, and so I had a journey through
school and found out about Noble at
that time it was Noble Foundation and
actually went on to grad school because
this was a place I wanted to work.
I'd applied for a job, wasn't qualified
for it found out about Noble and
actually went through grad school.
planning to work here.
The mission of helping producers stay
on their property spoke volumes to me
and that I knew that's what I wanted to
do for a living was to help producers.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Now,
what is your degree in and
what is your graduate degree?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: So
my undergrad is animal science with
the emphasis on ranch management.
So I took a lot of ag econ classes.
My master's is in ag education.
Um, I did not take the
track of being a teacher.
Never wanted to be VOAG teacher
hold a lot, hold them in high
standards, but that was not for me.
Um, and so I actually worked with
the department head at the time
and he let me take a track, develop
my own track around research.
And and so I went through a lot
of the education courses, but most
most of my coursework was through
different departments in the ag field.
And and then my PhD is in crop science.
However, I worked through the
horticulture department with pecans.
And so I went from animals to plants.
So that.
That took me on another journey
through school, having to make
up a lot of prereq classes
as a Ph.
D.
level taking freshman level
courses was a little journey.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, I imagine so.
Now, you went to school, did you
go to college with the intent
of getting that animal science
degree and going home at the time?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
yeah, yes.
I actually went my, whenever I started
school, like most freshmen we go
in with big dreams and we quickly
change the first semester or two.
I went in for a pre vet.
Was what I was wanting to do through
animal science and realized accounting
was not really what I wanted.
And pre vet was way too hard for me.
So I stuck with the
animal science side of it.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: I know
when I went to OSU, moved down
there, and I was doing animal
science with the biotechnology
option and I had to take biochem.
And that class was only
offered at 8am or 7.
30am.
It's maybe on half hours, so 7.
30 Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
It was awful.
It was way too early to
be covering all that.
And I ended up dropping that class,
one of the few I dropped and I
actually changed my specialty
from animal biotech to production.
Not really because of that
course, but there were some
other things that happened.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
It's funny whenever you,
especially as an undergrad, those
early classes was awful hard.
And as I got to grad school, I
really preferred those early classes
and, but I went in with a different
mindset as a grad student too.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751:
Oh, I'm sure you did, yes.
Yeah.
So you got your degree and then you
decided, hey, this Noble Foundation
is a place where I wanna be.
Is that the general area you were coming
from or where were you introduced to?
The Noble Foundation
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
so I actually grew up in Northwest
Oklahoma and went straight to
Stillwater to Oklahoma State University.
Got all three degrees from there.
And actually met my wife funny story in
the library, we were both in speech class.
She, Has won multiple awards for speeches
and we were teamed up and she would not
let me speak because she didn't want me
to hurt her grade, but she was actually
the one that introduced me to, to noble
foundation and and while I was in working
on my master's, I actually worked for OSU
at the fruit and nut research station.
And so I applied for a horticulture
job here and came down and visited
done an interview and connected a
lot with the person, the director
that was hiring at that time.
And he actually encouraged me.
He's you're not a fit for this
position, but we would love to
have you here at some capacity.
And so I through my, my masters
and actually started my PhD, had
an opportunity to do a PhD because
I worked at the research station,
um, and knew, knew that pecans
was a part of noble and had an
opportunity to come down for that.
But never wanted to give up my
dream with livestock either.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh yeah.
So during this journey, and I know
college is a different story because
I know when I was in college, I worked
on the OSU dairy and that kept me busy
and then going to class, and then I
got married while I was down there.
I didn't have time or money or anything
for any livestock of my own on the side.
In fact, I sold all the livestock
I had accumulated to go to college.
When did you, on a personal
side, get back into livestock or
were you in it the whole time?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: I
was pretty much in it the whole time.
I had an opportunity to lease land
at Stillwater next to the airport.
And so I was, that's the only thing
that saved me in college was being
able to get out onto the land.
And so I started with some stockers.
That's what my family did was stockers.
First couple of years was pretty
successful, but also had dad helping,
went out on my own.
And Did not do too good.
So my wife was, had a lot
of experience with cow calf.
And so we got into the raising cow calves.
And so I was able to do that all
through through college and grad school.
And so I've stayed in it.
Except for whenever I first started
Noble, we sold out during the 2006 drought
allowed us to get out of the cattle.
We still had a lot of horses.
My wife is
a horse woman.
And so we've kept Quite a few horses.
And then really got back into the
cattle with my son being born and we're
raising miniature Hereford cattle.
For him to show, but I
fall in love with them.
And that's what we'll continue
to do is raise probably
miniature Herefords from now on
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Now, when
you got that lease land and as well as
growing up around stockers, were you
managing those with regenerative practices
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
was not,
had never really even heard of
regenerative practices back then.
Knew a little bit about rotation,
but for the most part, it
was, with stalkers, it was.
putting weight on keeping
them out on the pasture.
A lot of what my family did,
we, we would sell truckloads.
And so, We were pulling cattle
at different times, depending on
the weights to make a truckload.
And so mine just fell in with dad's loads.
And my numbers were never consistent,
but it was pretty continuous grazing.
But now that I've known, I've learned
more about high stock density grazing,
adaptive grazing, I look back and
think, man, if we would have known
this back then, how much easier my life
would have been running the cattle.
One of my jobs growing up was,
I was really good at identifying
sick cattle before they
got sick.
And looking back now, what I
know now, I could have been
a lot better than I was then.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: oh
yeah, just those daily moves.
It's so easy, in my mind, to identify
those sick animals when you're around
them every day and you're moving them
because you can just pick up when they're,
oh, why is that one trailing behind?
She's never there.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: Yeah.
And a lot of people that's not around
stalkers don't realize there's telltale
signs of an animal is starting to feel bad
just how they hang their heads or their
ears, um, or Their eyes,
how they, their appearance.
And if you're out there every day, Moving
them, and everybody talks about the time,
but it doesn't take long to do that, to
move them and to look at them and you
can go on about your daily business.
We used to, I used to spend hours
on horseback riding through big
pastures, looking at cattle and
trying to find the sick ones.
I wouldn't have had to do
that if we'd managed this way.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
When you went to the Noble Foundation,
they were not exactly on the
regenerative path at that time.
I assume they were doing some things, but
they made that switch a few years ago?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: About
three years ago, I'd say for me in the
area that I worked with pecan growers.
Now, so whenever I first started
here, we were each in our
own discipline and we didn't,
weren't really allowed to step
outside of our discipline.
So even though I had animal science
background, I didn't work with
a lot of livestock producers.
Cause that wasn't my expertise
at the time.
But I had a lot of opportunity
to, I traveled a lot by myself.
And so I had to answer a lot of
those questions and, or bring them
back to the livestock consultant
to, to answer those questions.
to give me the answer to
give back to the producer.
But it wasn't regenerative.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh yes
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
we did think about soil health
and I'm always been passionate
about trying to reduce input cost.
And so for me, my journey is a little
different than maybe some of the others
that's was in the old system at Noble.
It was more about production.
And for me, I
knew a lot of the producers I
worked with, um, to stay profitable.
It come down to the input cost.
We can reduce that input
cost was important.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: oh yes so
when the foundation started changing
over, was that when you started
a mind shift change or had yours
already started ahead of that?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: I
would say mine started ahead of that.
I was really interested in soil health.
And so I'd started doing some
cover cropping in the orchards
trying to manage our orchards.
To reduce inputs.
A few years before Noble made that change.
And so it's been a little, I'd say
a little easier for me because I've
already been started that journey,
but I didn't know about regenerative.
And, and at that time, Noble had
a lot of research departments and
there was researchers looking at, the
microbes in the soul or, beneficials.
Um, fungi and that perked my interest
because trees developed with fungi.
And so I was already
going down that track.
And then once we made the switch
to regenerative and we brought in
consultants to us us up to speed, it
was like, the light bulb went off and
it's this is what I've been looking for.
Um, this is what I've been trying to.
To get out to producers.
I was also in charge of research
with pecans and it really tailored
the type of research as I was
wanting to do, um, to answer those
questions producers were asking.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Did that
also, that exposure and you had already
started that journey, did that affect
your practices with your own animals?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
Yes, it did.
Because before, before we made
the switch here at Noble, I
was more continuous graze.
Um, and now, I'm doing
the adaptive grazing.
I'm not to the level of moving
them daily, just because I work an
hour away from where my place is.
Um, And I don't have that many animals.
And I'm still working on the
infrastructure, but I've been able
to plan out the way I want to do it.
And eventually I'll get there.
But I am, as I graze, I do, try
to move every three or four days.
I'm, now that I've taught the class,
the grazing, the essentials grazing
class, I've learned a lot more
about utilization rates and how to
get the plants to recover quicker.
And so even this year I've
changed up how I'm grazing.
I'm not trying to take as much forage.
Cause I was taught, if you
don't take it, you're losing it.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh,
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
and now I realized the importance
of leaving those plants in phase
two growth don't take as much.
And that allows me to get back
on those pastures quicker.
And if I have to move to a sacrifice
field or I have a lot of small pens that
I can put them in, um, like right now
I have my cows in a more of a dry lot.
Because I'm waiting on some grasses to
grow.
And I'm just in that phase where
I've had them out for a while.
They got the good stuff, the cool season.
I'm waiting on my warm seasons to
kick in or my cool seasons to really
take off in some other pastures.
And so I'm able to hold them.
Um, but I know what to do now.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: And just right
there is a mouthful because I think this,
I'll be honest, for me, this is one of
the hardest times of the year because I
see that green out there and I'm ready to
get cows out and to be honest, I think I
probably put them out a little too early
this year because I just get so antsy.
You, you realize you got some grazing
out there but then you're like, hey, we
gotta pull back in and it's okay to pull
them back in and hay them for a little
bit so that you're not hurting your
grass so you can get out there later.
And I think that's really hard to do.
I know it's really hard for me, because
last week I was debating it myself.
Do I pull them back into, I hate
to use the term sacrifice paddock,
because that's a negative term
now, but we use it that way.
Where we can feed them hay,
it's a pretty small area.
So that was my thought pattern a
week ago, whether or not to do it.
Now I decide not and I'm still grazing
them and moving them, but I think being
aware of that and making that move is so
important and it's also so very difficult.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
I agree.
And that was a challenge I
had last about a week ago.
And it's Hey, I'm not, I really wanted
to get out to that next pasture.
But as I walked through there and
really looked at it, it's if I just
give this another week or two weeks,
Also I was, I know my pastures
are very low in phosphorus.
My area is very low.
And so I knew I needed
to give a little kick.
And so I'm just waiting on the rain
and allow those seeds that I actually,
cause I did overseed it, um, and take
advantage of the what I did, but I also
wouldn't know that's going to help me
in the long run to bring that phosphorus
up with what I planted in the pastures.
It's not all about the cattle.
The cattle's the tool I'm using
to improve the soil health.
And I think for a lot of livestock
producers, if they're on this journey
they got to realize that the cattle are
the tool for the long term goals that
I've got to improve my soil health.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Yes, the
livestock's a tool, whether you're using
cattle, sheep, goats, water buffalo
bison, whatever you choose to use,
they're a tool in the long term goal.
I love that being said there.
Chuck, you mentioned you had broad
or you had planted some seeds.
Did you just broadcast them,
or did you drill them in?
Oh.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
my last couple of years.
I do not have a no till drill.
And so I have an old John Deere drill.
No hydraulics on it.
It works fairly good.
I have limitations with it.
And at different pastures,
I will use the drill.
And in other areas, I will broadcast.
Um, I, I don't I've hate to
say this, but I've probably
had better luck broadcasting.
The last.
Two years, because in the, it
seems like the fall, whenever I'm
trying to get it out been dry,
and so my broadcast has worked better.
I've also done some broadcasting, and then
I'll follow up in a couple small paddocks.
I actually brush hogged
and laid the residue on
top of, And that seemed to really help
in a couple of the small paddocks.
Thank you.
Um, I can definitely tell a difference
there, but it was, it's due more
to, um, holding moisture capturing
that moisture and getting that seed
to soil contact after broadcasting.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: I was on a
podcast every day, and we were talking
about broadcasting, running cows
afterwards to stump that in, or if the
cows had run before to really bring it
down, and they had asked me, what works
better, and I said it all depends on rain.
If
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
I agree.
and and you witnessed like
the million pounds through the
course, a million pounds per acre.
We just done a course in, in
down at Waller, Texas, and the
class actually wanted to see
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, yes.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
And, we all had the discussion, and
it was a large herd, it was 683 cows.
And so they done a lot of trompling in a
half acre.
I think it was just about an acre
size, um, pen that we put them in.
And it was long, skinny.
It was like 50 by 100
or 750 foot long area.
And we all, everybody in the class
was like, man, if we'd have thrown
out seed right before we done
this, can you imagine
what that would have done?
Cause those animals would have trompled
would have been better than no tilling it.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: oh yeah,
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: and.
And I would love to be able to do that.
I just don't have the numbers to get
to that, stock density on a small acre.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Right, yes.
And actually talking about your
livestock a little bit more
you went with many Herefords.
Why'd you go with the miniature Herefords?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
Like I said, my wife is a horse person.
She grew up in the show industry.
I grew up showing pigs.
And so 4 H and FFA is.
Near and dear to my heart.
And so whenever we had our son we wanted
him to experience the show industry,
the good side of the show industry.
And,
and one thing that the miniature Herefords
allow is they have a pre junior class.
So usually for the junior shows, you
got to wait until you're in four H,
which you have to be eight years old.
With the mini Herefords, you
can start showing at three.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: oh wow,
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: And
so the family's more involved parent or
a sibling can go into the show ring with
them until they're eight and be involved.
And so that's one of the biggest
reasons we looked at the miniature
Herefords was to be able to start early.
And it really helped.
Grows the kids.
and, and and now I'm
involved in the industry.
I'm one of the regional board
members of the association.
That's a passion of mine is
getting the kids involved.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, yes.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
the more we can get the kids involved.
And the thing I love about it,
it gets the family involved
with these shows, because the.
Families have, with those young kids,
they have to work with the animals.
The kids have to work with the
animals to be used to them.
I'm pretty passionate about getting
the kids involved at a young age.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Yeah, very good.
When you got your miniature Herefords,
have they surprised you in any way?
What do you find out?
What do you feel is
the advantages of them?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
The biggest advantage is that.
This type of grazing is
what they were made for.
Um, a lot of people think the
miniature Herefords are a pet animal.
Really they're the Herefords from
the 20s through the, maybe the 50s.
They're this short structured the
breeder that actually developed
the miniature Herefords was from
West Texas and on rangeland.
And he started breeding down his
animals while everybody else in the
industry bred up to a larger size.
And he did it for efficiency on grass.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh,
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
And, and that's one thing I
have learned is my animals.
Do not eat as much.
They don't need as much.
They will get rolling fat a lot
quicker than what I'm used to.
Whenever my wife and I raised
limousine while we were in college
before we sold out of them.
And these mini Herefords do not take
much feed to maintain and put on weight.
And the interesting thing about
them, once they get fat, It's
really hard to pull them off
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, yeah.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
because they do not consume near as much.
You In the class we tell you, 2.
6 percent of their body
weight is the target.
I'm guessing on mine, mine's
closer to probably a 2.
percent of their body weight.
So it Took me a couple of
years to figure that out.
I was putting them out and calculating
my forage and it's calculating for three
days and I go out on the fourth day and
it's man, I still got a lot of grass here.
And, and now that I know more about,
um, utilization rates on the grasses
I'm having to change how I calculate
my paddock sizes or the time I'm
on the duration of that graze, just
because they don't graze as much.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, yeah.
I find the miniature
Herefords really interesting.
My grandfather, on my dad's side, moved
to northeast Oklahoma from west Texas.
always ran Herefords.
Gr here and he much preferr and
he'd put weights on t them down.
And I really l And this is really
not a good reason, but it is, my wife
doesn't think they're pretty, so she,
so I don't have any, and I'm like,
but they are, I love that red and
white, but right now I don't have any.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
Say my wife is a nose person
and she loves their pink noses.
And
so the few, I get,
that's got a black nose.
She's no, that's an ugly one, but
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, yeah.
Yeah that makes it an easier sell
when you find one with a pink nose
to convince her you need another one,
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
that's right.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: You mentioned
about calculating your forage and
then when you were going out there
later, they weren't consuming
as much as you had anticipated.
And I know when I went through
the course, that was one of
the big benefits, I thought.
I had read about doing it,
but I had never really.
Went out there, measured my forage,
estimated how much I needed, and
then calculated pen size to get it
there, and then reflect upon that.
I was using the eyeball method.
I moved cattle and sheep this morning,
and again, it was the eyeball method.
But I really that process to calculate
how much forage is out there.
Can you go into a little bit
more detail about that process?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
Typically would use like a
grazing stick and and then.
Measure your height and density of your
forage based on that grazing stick, or
just what we try to teach in the class is
you don't have to have that grazing stick.
It can be just a yard stick.
But really you're looking at the
height of the grass and how thick
it is to determine how much.
Production you have on a per acre basis.
The one thing we have changed since you
took the course is really focusing on
that utilization rate a little bit more.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh,
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
Um, And how you can utilize that,
that utilization rate to help that.
Plant recover quicker and actually get
a higher utilization rate at the end
of the year, if you're in a system that
you're grazing multiple times a year.
Like what you guys would with in
northeast Oklahoma or areas that we
get more rainfall or on a I guess we
call it a tame pasture or improved
pasture with Bermuda grass or fescue.
What you do with, once you set that
rate, in, in my opinion, and you've
seen this at Miami, Jim Garish and I
both went out the day before and we
estimated what the production was, but
that grass was that fescue was so thick,
It actually fooled both of us.
We were way low on our
production per acre.
And we took some measurements and we
are actually had more production there.
So that's what I like doing the measuring,
but also using the eye to adjust that.
And if you remember on that, during
that course, that last day, Jim actually
went up on his production on a per
acre basis, because we were
looking at what the cattle was,
should have been consuming.
Versus what they were actually
consuming and realize, Hey, we were
several hundred pounds per acre off.
And so then that allowed us to
adjust our paddock size to get to
the goal that we were shooting for
with each graze of grazing event.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: I really
think that's excellent, and I think
that's something I need to do more of.
Now, I will tell you
one limitation I have.
Very seldom are my paddocks
square or rectangles.
So then I've got to do some
estimation to figure out how much,
how many square feet are in there.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
One thing we see a lot of of our class
participants using different types
of apps to do those measurements.
The ranch we were just on that we'd done
the course on, they'd use PastureMap.
And, um, and I ha Noble uses pasture
maps, but I never have and that was eye
opening because we told him how much area
we calculated we needed, and they were
able to drop right on their phones and
knew exactly where to go and put the fence
and it didn't take a few.
Literally a minute and he knew where
to go to, And so technology can really
help you with some of that stuff.
I use different app just a mapping system.
I know Josh Gaskamp, one of the other
facilitators uses Google maps or Google
pro, I think it is allows him to do that.
And then it also allows him to
track where his paddocks were.
And you know, finding that technology
that, You're familiar with that helps you.
I think that's something a
lot of growers can look at.
And I think that's something we are
wanting to do is look at the different
technologies available to to give an idea.
We're not going to tell you what to use.
Just give you an options of
go out and play with these
and see what works best for you.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: and I've been
meaning to try that the Google version
and see how that goes I looked at pastor
map a number of years ago and at the time
I was like, this is confusing for me I
can't and I'm pretty good with technology.
I'm sure they've upgraded their program
and made a better user interface I
probably should recheck into that and
see if that's a potential option for me
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: Yeah,
I think they've just done an update just
within the last couple of months to make
it a little friendlier and they've added
more tools to it and more information.
So they're continuing
just like most technology
continue to involve and get better
and they, they try to listen to
the consumer of what they need.
And so I think all that
stuff's going to get better.
And I think also as more people
are doing the adaptive grazing,
you'll see new types of technology
come on that could be helpful.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751:
Yeah, I totally agree.
The rate or the speed things
improve is just amazing.
And you blink your eyes and
then it's really a quality tool.
So I'm going to have to look into
that or Google because I think that
would help me with my measurements
of my area I'm giving animals.
I'm already walking all over it.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
And that's the thing.
And I think that's one of the reasons
we've with our courses, try to teach the
eye method, the observation is because
you are out there and if you could, the
best tool you have is your eyes, and once
you can get those trained you can make
those adjustments on the fly and As we
talk about in the classes, you're not
gonna screw up in one day, you're not
gonna kill the animals or you're not gonna
kill day.
So if you mess up, it's an easy fix.
The next day or the next move
that you make, you just make that
adjustment and you learn from it.
'cause we all learn from our mistakes
and to me that's the most powerful thing.
If we can teach our.
Ourselves to be confident
in making those decisions.
We can make those quick decisions,
make those adjustments and improve
our own learning or our own thinking
to improve our overall system.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: I think
you're exactly right with that.
And one other thing I want to
throw in from being an educator,
they teach us as an educator
students need immediate feedback.
With grazing, it's not immediate, it's
24 hours later or you're that next move,
but it's very close to that initial time.
So you get that feedback, not
immediately, but really close.
So that really helps you adjust
what you're doing and going forward.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
I agree.
And I think if you're seeing it.
It's going to stick with you longer
than that.
Maybe more than that immediate feedback,
because you're the one
that made that decision.
You noticed
You're going to remember that the
next year or, three or four years
down the road, you're like, that
happened a couple of years ago.
Hey.
I remember that.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Yeah.
Chuck, let's shift gears just a
little bit because I think Noble
Research Institute just announced
a new partnership the other day.
Can you tell us what courses
they're offering right now
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: So,
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: it's going?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: okay,
so right now Noble has the Noble Land
Essentials, which is more based the
ecological ground measurements monitoring.
How do we do that?
How do we know You know, how
are we making these changes?
That's, that was actually the
first course that Noble put out.
The second course was
Noble Grazing Essentials.
That was the one that you were in,
really talking, just the fundamentals
of grazing, what's the importance of
adaptive grazing, how do we get started?
We are currently working on
Noble Business Essentials, which
that's the partnership that was
announced with Ranching for profit.
And that will be the fundamental.
The introduction of the business courses.
And so we've partnered with ranching for
profit with Dallas mount incorporating
a lot of his materials in that, in
his course, that seven day course a.
I think it's a three day course that we're
doing just kind of, Putting our own
little twist on it, but with his blessing.
And so if people are interested in
improving their business instead of taking
the seven day course, they can get some
information out of this short one and
and hopefully feeding into his seven day.
course, To me, it's a great
partnership because I know I went
through the ranching for profit.
And I absolutely loved it.
It made me think totally
different about the business side.
And then we are also working on
a business of grazing course,
that second Tier of the grazing,
you know, to talk about more
planning of grazing, the making
those decisions with grazing plans.
I'm looking at cost of infrastructure.
How do we determine if we can
afford to do the infrastructure?
Improvements or changes.
But also looking at those opportunities
we have with our grazing, what are
those triggers that tell us most people
think of triggers as a negative trigger,
contingency plan because of droughts,
but we're trying to put a twist on that.
There are other triggers
that's opportunity for you.
We have a lot of for or rainfall in
the spring and we got a flush of.
Forage production.
Is that an opportunity that we
can bring in stockers or least
cattle?
Um, It's not always a negative thing.
If we're ready for it, we can pull
those triggers and take opportunities.
And so we're also incorporating
those triggers into our next course.
Um, and.
And then that we do have for the rest of
the year, a couple of online courses that
we're trying to get out and developed.
So I think by the end of the year,
I think our target is to have six
new courses or yeah, six new courses
available to the, uh, public.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, very good.
Now, one thing with your
courses available, Where
are these courses happening?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
So we're taking them out
outside of the Ardmore area.
We're still having at least one course,
um, or class of each one of those courses
in Ardmore, but we're also taking them out
across Texas other locations in Oklahoma,
Kansas, Missouri New Mexico, Colorado,
so we're going outside of Oklahoma
and as we were trying to find those
right locations to get producers that.
Are interested to get them closer
to those and try to follow up
those for the next couple of years.
And then I think we're going to
broaden on out past those states.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, yes.
For our listeners out there,
where would you suggest they
start in this suite of courses?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: So
I, personally, I think if you're very
basic, just getting interested in soul
health I definitely encourage the length.
Because it's going to teach you
the fundamentals of the ecosystem
processes, the soil health principles.
We're going to touch on those in each
course, but that's a kind of a deep dive.
And then how do you monitor it?
How do you go out and monitor
and see how is your soil?
Health improving, um, because it's
not a number that we're looking for.
It's the trends.
And so every producer is going to
have a different baseline numbers
and see things differently.
So how do you monitor
that on your own property?
And then if you're a grazer, Take that
essential grazing course and then follow
that up with the business of grazing.
So we're trying to do it similar to
a university class or a curriculum.
We're not saying you
need to take the first
one.
to take the second one.
But if you don't have the knowledge, the
second one might be overwhelming to you.
Um, and so, But I think the first
essential classes even the business
course whenever it's out later this
summer, that would be a great one.
If you're more interested in the
business side, what financials
do I need to be keeping?
How do I keep those financials?
It's not just about taxes.
It's using those financials to, To
make decisions on your own operation.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Very good.
I'm excited for these
additional courses coming out.
I thought the grazing course,
grazing essentials was really good.
It had some things in it that I
hadn't seen in some other things I
had taken and just that out in the
pasture opportunity put a million
pounds in area and see what it does.
Measuring the forage
and estimating that out.
Stuff I'd heard but I just hadn't
taken the time to do I thought was
really good among everything else.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
And I think one thing we know we
can't do it all here at Noble.
And so we are making those partnerships.
You, we mentioned the ranching
for profit partnership.
You are in the course with Jim Garrish.
We've partnered with Jim Garrish to,
to develop some of the grazing courses.
So bring those specialists in that.
That have that reach, that have
that knowledge and bring it to us.
We learn from them, but we also
can fine tune with our courses.
Aren't a typical course.
It's not us up teaching,
um, telling you what to do.
It's more getting you to think.
And so we call it facilitation.
It that's been a big change for us.
I'm used to getting up.
Teaching like a college professor
to the audience.
We're facilitating the discussion with you
guys that's participating in the classes
and we're learning from you guys too.
And to me that's a big part of
one big chain or difference in our
courses than what some of the other
ones that you see that's available
is, um, we're all learning together.
This is a journey.
For all of us we
don't know all the answers.
Nobody knows all the right answers, but
we can definitely learn from each other.
That's one big difference in our courses.
I think then you'll see from a lot of
the other courses is it's not somebody
up there telling you what to do.
We're up there learning together and
just giving you hints of what to look
for, or maybe giving you the confidence
to go out and change what you need
to change on your own operation.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Very good.
I am excited about the
additional course offerings.
Like I said, I thought the
one I attended was excellent.
Let's change gears just a little bit and
move to our overgrazing section where
we take a deeper dive into some aspects.
And in talking to you, and you
mentioned this today, and I'd
learned it the course, you're very
interested in pecan production.
And then I'm very interested in grazing.
Now, along that subject,
We have a few pecan trees.
Nothing planned.
We are grafting a few and
we're going to thin some out.
But let's talk just a moment
about pecans and grazing.
Are they mutually exclusive?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: I'd
say that they are a perfect partner.
And actually that's one of the
reasons that I wanted to come to Noble
was, as I mentioned, I grew up in
Northwest Oklahoma, very few trees.
And whenever I started working at the
research station, my job was taking
care of the pecans and peaches,
and I realized money does grow on
trees if you manage them right.
And I realized, Hey, I got a lot
of forage, grass is growing under.
I can incorporate livestock.
In my trees.
It is a challenge.
Because a lot of times if you're a,
say a pecan producer on a per acre
basis, pecans are worth more money.
And so maybe you're, you look
at the livestock as just another
challenge or headache, but I
think there is a lot of benefits.
You can reduce your risk if you have
multiple enterprises on your property.
Um, And I think looking at soil
health, there's a lot of benefits
that the livestock brings to
improving the soil health to
improve the production of the trees.
And so you can capitalize on both
enterprises at the same time.
And it's really, I like to call it
a two story system, where, Where
we got the livestock grazing in
our fruit production or tree or
nut production above the livestock.
So I'm actually able to capitalize on
two enterprises on the same acre without
adding much infrastructure to it.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Now one
thing with that, I drive down these
roads and I see these pecan groves.
They're not grazing anything.
So when I see that I think
that's a opportunity.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
Absolutely.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: How do
you approach that landowner and
pitch that opportunity to them?
Because I'm assuming if they were
interested in grazing, interested in
livestock, they would have already figured
it out, but that's not their passion.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
it that's the challenge.
It's not their passion.
You have to, they have to
come through a paradigm shift.
They have to realize that the livestock
is going to give them something else.
And the other challenge, especially
here in Oklahoma, we do have,
I'd say 80 percent of our pecan
orchards are grazed, but they're
overgrazed.
They're abused.
And so how do you get the
producer to understand?
And it comes goes back to understanding
what the ecosystem processes are
and those soil health principles.
And once you get them bought into, I
want to, I see the benefits of improving
my soil health, it's a little easier.
Ask of them to look outside of
what they're traditionally do.
A lot of the producers I've worked with
that are strictly just a pecan producer,
once they realize that the importance of
soil health and what soil health can get
them especially reducing the input cost.
Because if you're managing an.
Really managing a pecan orchard.
It, there is a, it's pretty high cost on a
per acre basis for
management, for input cost.
And once they start seeing those input
costs coming down and because of the soil
health improvements, it's a lot easier
sell to, to get them to think about, maybe
we do need livestock in here, the other
big sell I'd try to do with a lot of my
producers, they're not livestock people.
They're not ranchers, so they don't want.
The headache of the animal.
They
don't have to own them.
You They can actually get paid
to let somebody else bring their
animals in and graze the forage that
they were spending money mowing.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh yeah.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
and once you get on that level
with them and they can start seeing
those benefits it's a lot easier.
It's still a struggle.
I've got a lot of people that's
right on the edge of putting
livestock in, it takes a little time.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: No
paradigm shift happens overnight.
It takes exposure multiple times.
It takes time to get there.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
It does.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: When
you think about grazing, and if
you're out here grazing improved
pasture, you're doing it this way.
But when you think adaptive grazing with,
when you've got pecans, are you doing
something a little bit different there?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: Um,
so it depends on the pecan.
If it's a, if it's a planted orchard
say one of the biggest challenges is
if it's an irrigated orchard, a lot of
people, that irrigation with the risers
at each tree, is a substantial cost.
And so
they're worried about damage to the.
The riser sprinkler risers.
And so what I look at is between the
trees is a perfect paddock size, and
can I put up my pasture, my paddocks,
my fencing inside the trees and
avoid keeping them off my risers.
Now, I
think once.
once.
You get into the pattern and we do
this at Noble, we graze sheep in one
of our planted irrigated orchards.
Once you realize that the animals
are being moved daily or every
couple days and we're keeping plenty
of forage out there, they're not
going to mess with those risers.
Whenever an animal gets bored, that's when
they're looking at something to rub on.
But if they're chasing the green grass
and getting moved on a regular basis, I
don't foresee there's going to be that
much problems with the irrigation system.
Now, if it's a native orchard, your
native grove where the trees aren't in
rows, I think we just graze it the same
way, but there's benefits of that shade.
There's been plenty of
research to show that.
Grass is growing under shade are
actually more digestible, higher
protein or nutrient value to the animals
and the animals are stressed less,
especially during the summer months.
And so they actually gain better.
As long, if it's in a, we can still
graze it the same way, but there's
added benefits to both the livestock,
but what the livestock given to
the soil is a benefit to our trees.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Is there
a certain time when we think
about grazing, we don't want
to graze too early on grasses.
We want to give them time to mature
so they're in that phase two.
Is there anything we need to be aware
of on pecan trees that we shouldn't
graze during a certain time, or
we should be a little bit easier
on our grazing during that time?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: So
one thing is not at a law, but it's
highly recommended right now because of
FISMA, which is the Food Moderation Act
is to remove the animals at a certain
period before harvest because our
nuts are harvested off the ground.
And what they're worried about is E.
coli and salmonella contaminations.
Um, like I said, it, Right now,
pecans are exempt from that law.
And so in Oklahoma, we
recommend 90 day removal.
Um, in other, each state's
a little different.
I think Texas is about 60 days.
You go out west, or east
to Georgia, it's 120 days.
Um, and so knowing what
the recommendations are
for each state is good.
But if you're harvesting your
pecans, host Wholesaling them on the
wholesale market where they're going
to be processed through a processor,
they go through a kill log system
where they sanitize the pecans.
And so there's not a big risk there but
there could be a time shortly in the
next few years that we become under that
FSMA law, where there will be a mandate
of when we have to remove the animals.
The other thing is, if you've ever been
involved with pecan harvest, where the
rubber fingers are picking the pecans
up off the ground, if you have fresh
manure out there, then you get it.
Fresh manure over everything.
And so.
just knowing that you need to have
a long enough period that the manure
is dry can help, be more sanitary
with your harvesting process.
And that's one thing we are, we have a
research group here at Noble that we are
looking at pecan orchards and several
pecan orchards across Oklahoma and Texas.
Monitoring how their soil health,
um, and some of those are grazed.
And so we are actually looking at as
we improve soil health, do we degrade
the manure paths quicker in the, in a
healthier soil so we can reduce that
time that the animals have to be removed.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Very good information there.
One thing on your animals.
Is there certain advantages
or disadvantages to
certain livestock species?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: I'd
say depending on the size of the trees
we have learned if you've got small
trees, goats might not be the best
thing because goats can climb trees.
Um, And we'll pull the branches down.
If you're grafting young trees goats
really love, seem to love the new
graft growth off the graft wood.
So we've lost some trees that we've
grafted and put goats here at Noble.
It was a learning experience,
um, But I don't think it really matters
on the species, as long as you're,
you understand their limitations and
what they're providing to you and,
um, if you've got young especially
in the springtime, if you've got
low lane, low hanging branches.
The pecan leaves are actually really
nutrition high nutrition for the animals.
During the early spring, just as
they're starting to leaf out before
that leaf hardens off, pecan leaves
can be up to over 20 percent protein,
up to 28 percent protein.
So if they, so that's another a
forage for the animals if they
can, if they get a taste for it.
But if it's a young tree, they
will strip the entire tree.
And then that says back your tree.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: So we
have some just native pecan trees.
We have done nothing to manage them.
We did plant a few pecan trees, I don't
know, 30 years ago, and we didn't do
very good with those, but we've been
talking, we thought, oh, let's come
in and thin those trees, because it's
native, it's just growing up, so we're
gonna go in and thin those trees, and
we thought we'd graft a certain so dad
and I went back and looked at them, and
very few young trees and once I thought
about it, I'm like I know why, we've
been grazing small ruminants, for 15
years now and we didn't protect any young
trees during that time, but that was an
aspect that we hadn't even considered.
We thought, oh yeah, we've got
plenty of small trees, we'll just
go back there and thin it, clean
it up, get it a little bit better.
But, we ran goats for a number
of years on this place, and now
we're running a lot of hair sheep.
Small ruminants does make
that does affect that.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: Yeah.
And a lot of that's the
nutritional value of those leaves.
And a lot of people don't
think of, of any of the tree
species leaves being valuable to
the livestock, but they, if the
livestock gives the taste for it, man,
that's what they're going to go for.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Yes.
Chuck it, it's time for us to
do our famous four questions.
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cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: So our
famous four questions are the same
four questions we ask of every guest.
Our first question, what is your
favorite grazing grass related resource?
And I know you're going to say
the Noble Research Institute, but
go ahead and think beyond that.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
I would say I go back to my
ranching for profit book a lot.
It might not be on the grazing
side, but to me, The business
of grazing is so important.
Um, and so the material that I got from
Ranching for Profit, their newsletters I
read those every time they come through.
So to me, that, that's a valuable one
because to me, to be a successful grazer,
you have to be a good business person.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Exactly right.
If you're not profitable, you
cannot be sustainable and you
won't be grazing in a few years.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
Absolutely.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Our
second question, what is your
favorite tool for the farm?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752: Oh
mine might be a little different, but
my favorite tool is my skid steer.
There's a lot of stuff I
can do with my skid steer.
I grew up with tractors and once I
bought a got a small skid steer, I
realized I can do a lot more with
this and control what I'm doing.
So, on my place, my, my
favorite tool is my skid steer.
Start
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751:
I've always wanted one.
I do not have one, but that's
something I've always wanted.
Our third question, what would you
tell someone just getting started?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
small, try things.
Be patient, because some of the soil
health principles takes a couple
of years to see the results of.
So don't be, if you're planting cover
crops and you have a failure the first
year, doesn't mean you had a failure.
Those seeds are still in the
ground, especially if they're hard
seeds, you might see them come
back out, two or three years later.
So be patient.
But as you try new things, start
small with it, see the successes
and learn from those successes or
those failures and build off of that.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Very good.
Excellent advice there, Chuck.
And lastly, Chuck, can you tell us where
people can find out more about you and
more about the Noble Research Institute?
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
So if you go to www.
noble, that's n o b l e.
org, um, that's our website.
You can look at the courses that's coming
up, where the courses are going to be
held, and there's a lot of information.
We are planning to do a revamp of our
website later this year so hopefully
it will be a little easier to navigate
and find stuff but all the information
you need it should be right there.
And then I've also have a lot of articles
through the pecan associations, through
pecan South, um, that I've written on soil
health over the last five or six years.
And so you can Google those just
search my name and there's several
articles that I've written.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Very good.
Chuck, we really appreciate you
coming on and sharing with us today.
I've enjoyed the conversation.
charles-rohla_1_04-05-2024_113752:
I have too Cal and being my first.
Podcast.
You've made it really easy and I
your comments and leading for
me to get the right answer.
I greatly appreciate your time and
interest in having me on your show.
cal_1_04-05-2024_113751: Thank you, Chuck.
Cal: I really hope you
enjoyed today's conversation.
I know I did.
Thank you for listening, and if you
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