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Podcasting made $314 million in revenue last year. How can we spread the wealth so not just upper echelons benefit?
Join Brendan Hutchins 🙈 and Mark Steadman 🧔🏻 as they digest the very latest in podcast culture.
[00:00:00] Brendan: I am going to start working right after this phone call on, um, phone call.
[00:00:11] Mark: I didn't, I didn't twig. It's like, it's not until you start to just muck yourself that it was like, Hey, I guess that is a weird thing to say.
[00:00:24] Don't call it a comeback.
[00:00:29] Brendan: Brendan, Brendan, Brendan, Mark Steadman. It is good to talk to you.
[00:00:33] Mark: You too, man. You too. It's uh, it's been a long road getting from there to here. Yes.
[00:00:38] Brendan: But luckily we're here
[00:00:40] Mark: to, to business then, um, you gave me a podcast to listen to a couple
[00:00:43] Brendan: of weeks ago. Yeah. The phenomenon bribe. That's their Twitter name?
[00:00:48] Nominal. And how'd you, what'd you think
[00:00:51] Mark: I enjoyed it? Um, I think it is, it's not a perfect series, uh, but, uh, it is very enjoyable. I think the. Uh, acting and some of the dialogue is a bit stilted. Sure. Um, but the actual, I think the story and what's been adapted, uh, is, is really cool. And, uh, you know, I like I'm, I'm compelled to, to keep listening and I'm waiting with bated breath for season two, likewise, moderately bated.
[00:01:21] Um, but you know, definitely looking forward to, to season two and, um, and seeing what that
[00:01:27] Brendan: brings. Yeah. The story is really great. Um, it's an interesting. Like, I definitely, haven't heard of that kind of a alien type problem before. And then, you know, they throw in new things that you as you're going through.
[00:01:39] So it's not just the same big, bad, the whole time. It adds a lot. There's a lot of mystery to it. Uh, which I feel like adds to the compelling nature of it. Yeah, absolutely. So I haven't, I have a new recommendation for you. Excellent. If you're ready for another one, I'm ready. So have you listened to the science podcast?
[00:01:56] We have concerns,
[00:01:58] Mark: um, because it's adjacent to some of the shows that I listened to. So I know. Jelenjev yup. And today, oh yeah, that was right. Yeah. Jeff can ask Anthony carbo names. I know their names, but I never actually, for some reason I know of the podcast never actually like hit the subscribe button.
[00:02:15] So, uh,
[00:02:17] Brendan: has had a bunch of different internet, um, Different shows and stuff like, uh, the totally rad show, which was a group of three guys that, uh, they talked about about pop culture and different stuff like that. And then now he has a show on five by five, about video games, DLC. Yeah. Yeah. He likes, uh, the three letter names, like.
[00:02:35] And so now, um, he's on, you know, he's started, we have concerns with Anthony Carboni who is also famous from a bunch of different mall acting and improv things. Um, they're both big nerds. They didn't really know each other before they started the podcast and you get to listen to them, build their friendship, uh, as, as you're going through the podcast, which is just a really interesting experience.
[00:02:59] Cause normally you think that somebody was like, But, you know, the co-host, especially with like the recording in person together at either one of their homes and you think that's something that's so intimate and close like that it would be somebody that they know pretty well already, but, um, just kind of fun to explore their, their new friendship that way.
[00:03:18] And so the premise of the podcast is that they, they pick out a, an, a scientific article or a news article or, um, something that. I listened to submits about something vaguely science-related and they talk about the, you know, the kind of go through the process, trying to do it in kind of a comical way and, and, and pointing out the flaws and absurdities of it and taking it to an extreme.
[00:03:44] And, and then they, they use context from the article to go off on improv bits. And there's usually like two or three per episode, then they're like 20 minute episodes and a. I just find it hilarious. A lot of, as you're going through the podcast, there's a lot of callbacks to previous things and there's a lot of themes that go through and, uh, Yeah, it's just a super fun listened to it's it's it's a short listen cause it's only 20 minutes, but they put out like three episodes a week.
[00:04:13] So we have plenty of content if you want it. Um, but yeah, so highly recommended. Cool.
[00:04:17] Mark: Oh, well that's that I shall, uh, I shall look forward to, uh, to giving it a go and I will I'll report back next week as ever. Awesome.
[00:04:25] Brendan: Sounds good. Hey, mark. I am really excited. I'm really excited that there's an update to an app that I am not, I'm not using and I'm not going to use, but I'm really excited about it.
[00:04:36] Yeah. So apple podcasts is going to get an update with iOS 12. Apple just announced at WWDC that iOS 12 was coming this and that they didn't announce it. Podcasts on stage, I think, but in
[00:04:47] Mark: the, well, I think they mentioned, uh, cause there was the whole thing with, um, the show connected being shown on the watch.
[00:04:54] So I think they made a mention that podcasts is coming to the watch. Yeah,
[00:04:58] Brendan: the watches. Yeah. That's, that's pretty cool. Um, I don't, I don't use that. I use overcast and I just stream it from my phone. I don't know why I would put stuff on my watch.
[00:05:06] Mark: I can definitely see it because when I used to run and I'm trying to get back into possibly doing that at some point.
[00:05:14] Being able to run without the phone. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. And almost all the time. If, if I can, if I have my druthers, I would rather listen to a podcast. And I think I tried it for a little bit. Cause you know, for, for a hot minute there over cast, did Rick have podcasts sinking on the, on the watch?
[00:05:30] You just had to wait a week for it to transfer because of Bluetooth. But, you know, w w with that, with that API in place, that could be really cool if, uh, other apps are allowed to use it in the same way that the podcast
[00:05:44] Brendan: app is. So that was, uh, one of the main key features for iOS 12 is that, uh, Podcast support is coming to the apple watch, but that's not the part that I'm excited about.
[00:05:55] Uh, apple podcasts on the phone is getting chapter marker support for MP3s
[00:06:03] apparently they already have chapter Marcus Hort for AACS, which I didn't, I didn't realize. And it didn't really matter about. W like 95% of podcasting is on MP3. I'm pulling that number out of nowhere,
[00:06:15] Mark: but I think, I think you're right. They used to be, um, uh, I think they used to be a strand of podcasts that, uh, would have to feed.
[00:06:26] And you'd see, you'd have like what they would call. I think the BBC did this for a while and they called it the enhanced feed. Yeah. Yeah. Twit did that too, I think. Um, and so that was, that was the MP4, uh, right. Apple, um, proprietary format. And so you'd have to export using. Uh, the, you know, logical GarageBand that would export the chapters.
[00:06:46] And I, I did, I did the very same, like, I, I may chosen in that format as well.
[00:06:50] Brendan: I am a champion of chapters. I use them all the time. I always look at them when I'm getting into a podcast. Uh, I'd love the idea that you can just skip chapters to be one to, although I almost never do, but I often go back to a chapter like, oh, I remember it was like around here.
[00:07:06] And it was just an easier starting point to, um, to put in. And I just like having the. The breakdown of like what? Cause people's people's show notes. Game is not where it should be so frustrating when there's just like nothing there, or there's just a big blog post I'm. Like, I don't want to read blog posts.
[00:07:24] I'm listening to a podcast for a reason, but give me the highlights, give me some links, give me, you know, some extra context and this can be a better experience than just a piece of audio. So I'm happy that it's coming into apple podcasts because apple podcasts is currently the biggest. Uh, podcast player.
[00:07:42] And if people are using a noticing it more, they might S podcasters might start putting it in more. And I think this is going to be better for everybody in the industry. Uh,
[00:07:52] Mark: great. Just
[00:07:52] Brendan: speaking of, uh, apple podcast, currently being the biggest podcast player, uh, Google. Is about to launch their own, uh, Google podcast app.
[00:08:02] Yeah. And a little bit confused on the details. It sounds like people seem to be going back and forth. Like some people making guesses and other people correcting them about, oh no, the apps already there on the phones, but it's coming to the play store,
[00:08:16] Mark: quite understanding. Um, because they've been, they've been making overtures for a while and I'm sure, uh, one of our Android listeners can, um, can, can correct us, uh, or sort of flat flush out some of the details on this, uh, because yeah.
[00:08:28] Had the ability to play podcasts for awhile and podcasts have been available in the Google play store, the Google play music store. And I suspect that probably went through the Google play music app. Whereas now they are. Coming up with an app that is its own standalone podcast player, as opposed to, uh, you know, which I guess is not dissimilar to what, um, uh, apple used to do.
[00:08:58] Cause they had a, yeah, it was just in music. Yeah, that's it. Yep. Um, so, you know, it's, it's, it's probably a said a similar move. Yeah, that makes sense. Uh, but you know, again, As, as we've said, many times Android is the more prevalent smartphone, not among podcast listeners though. Not yet. Uh, and, and that's the thing that I always fail to, to, to actually add as the caveat is that yes, there are more vastly more, um, Android devices than there are iPhones, but the.
[00:09:25] Listening to podcasts tends to skew more towards apple. So if this corrects the balance, then what that means is a shit ton of more podcast listeners. But I wonder what. The knock-on effect will be to podcast advertising. Considering that podcast ads tend to be targeted towards the much more affluent end of the market.
[00:09:49] Absolutely. And the more affluent end of the market tend to be iPhone buyers. What's that going to do? If podcasts do get opened up to a larger audience? I think that's a really good question. Good things for us, but will it have a flattening out effect? To, um, you know, the, the people, um, you know, the Squarespaces and that the expensive mattresses and all these things that I can't afford.
[00:10:18] So there's a, an article by, um, radio Inc, uh, on podcasting.
[00:10:24] Brendan: Are you familiar with radio, Inc? No,
[00:10:26] Mark: I think this is just one. I think to be honest, this is just one place I out of many that shared this, the same news, which is, um, uh, about us search podcast, advertising revenue. Yeah. $314 million in revenue in 2017 splits.
[00:10:41] Pretty cool. A rise of 86%. So nearly, nearly twice the twice the amount of revenue over the previous year.
[00:10:49] Brendan: Yeah. I saw, um, a tweet from Jonathan Goldstein that showed a pie graph of that revenue versus a radio advertising. And the radio advertising was. In the billions I believe. And so the, the podcasts, the podcast is just a sliver of the ad revenue, as opposed to the whole big circle of the pie chart.
[00:11:16] And, uh, that was his, his justification or his, um, takeaway was that why podcasts isn't currently in a bubble is because the revenue is so small. That was an interesting take on that. I don't know if necessarily it's true. I don't necessarily think that podcasts are in a bubble, but I do know. I do wonder about the, uh, long-term stability of how many podcasts are being created.
[00:11:44] I, I just also put out a tweet the a couple of days ago, just like expressing my over my overwhelm with how many podcasts there are, and like wanting to explore and see new PA and listening to podcasts and find this stuff and just been like, There's just so many, there's just so many, there's so much audio out there.
[00:12:09] Yeah. And I can't, I can't, I want to listen to it all I'm going to do. I want, I want to at least sample them all and see which ones are good and, and, you know, keep listening to the ones that I like. And, and it's just so many. And so I just, you know, I go back to my old favorite.
[00:12:27] Mark: I think, I think what we kind of need is cause sometimes when I, when I hit the end of a, um, of a binge or there's a, the end of a TV series, uh, that, that I, I, you know, I've been enjoying and I'm thinking, okay, what's, you know, what's good.
[00:12:40] And most of the time I tend towards U S TV because, you know, w we're still in that golden age. And a lot of that good stuff comes, um, from the U S um, I like the AAV club. Yeah. Um, and I liked that, that TV ratings and I will sometimes just look through and look through the week and go, okay, what, what shows here are on that I haven't heard of.
[00:12:59] Um, and so that, you know, things like this is us and a couple of other shows, I think I've found through there. Found the good place. And you look at the ratings and go, you know, B plus a minus. Oh, okay. Well, you know, there's enough people here. Uh, I'm not really necessarily interested in reading the reviews, but getting a sense of the zeitgeists of this is what you know is worth watching in the moment.
[00:13:21] And, um, you know, short of going yet again on the discovery, uh, discoverability thing, I think some kind of, uh, Trusted system, whether it's by our peers or it's by people that we decide to imbue with the authority, uh, to, to judge podcasts, um, having, having that sort of list of, you know, here's like, here's, what's, zeitgeisty at the moment here's, what's worth checking out that isn't necessarily the mainstream or it isn't stuff that you, you know, most people already subscribed to, I think would be, would be really, really.
[00:13:59] Useful. Yeah. Um, because there is so much, and it's just, it's, it's figuring out what am I likely to enjoy that I'm not getting at the moment or, you know, what show is doing that thing, but better.
[00:14:15] Brendan: So the revenue of what was that 314 million you said? Yeah. Uh, how do you, how do you feel about that? And as, as it relates to the whole podcasting, uh, Industry.
[00:14:27] How do you feel that, uh, that, you know, I mean, obviously distribution is a, um, is a factor in that it's not going to be evenly distributed between all of the different
[00:14:37] Mark: podcasts. No. And it's also, I mean, this is, this is revenue, so this is not, this is not profit. Yeah. It's true. You know, so th this does not, um, this is not saying that that podcast is that podcasts have made this money, right.
[00:14:53] Uh, you know, like at the end of their tax year, this is, um, you know, because there is, there's a lot of this goes to, uh, companies like Midroll who do their ads, um, you know, that their, their ad stuff, and actually, um, uh, quick side JAG, uh, having listened to the latest Wolf den. Heartened to hear as much as I'm not a fan of Stitcher.
[00:15:19] Likewise, I was really heartened to hear that Midroll is kind of committed to not doing automated ads, um, that they, you know, uh, I can't remember which one it is, whether it's Alexa or the other fellow. I, I do forget which, which one's, which, because I haven't listened to enough episodes. But the, you know, the, one of the, the, the, the chapter made the point that they want their hosts to do the rates next.
[00:15:44] Um, and I think they're still, I think they still might be dynamically cause I'm pretty sure there are still like, well, uh, Airwolf shows that I listened to that don't have. The ad in the break where they're supposed to have an ad, but they are always exclusively, um, apart from the ones, right. At the very end, they're always ad, uh, that are always read by the host.
[00:16:05] And that's what mid-roll wants to do. That's what they're committed to doing when they, when they sell their spots. And I think that's great, um, for, for lots of different reasons. Um, and so, yeah, I kinda just wanted to, to, to make that mention really, because I. I want to be careful sometimes of demonizing people are writing organizations are for sure.
[00:16:23] Um, because you know, there's one thing about their business practice that I don't like, it's like, well, a practices can change, but also be that's one arm. Um, that's, you know, but, but there's another arm that's actually sticking to guns in, in kind of a, a nice way. Um, so yeah, I, the 340, like it's such a, from someone who is so divorced from the.
[00:16:46] Revenue the ad side of podcasting. It's really hard to, to get a, like a, a real beat or a real sort of read on this, um, because it's so, so much smaller in the UK. Um, you know, there are so few podcasts that successfully. Um, do this and far few. And now, uh, you know, there are more now that are doing the outcast inserted ads model because, um, that probably does a little bit better for UK podcasts.
[00:17:16] Um, They take less work and, you know, you can have all of this repetition, which means someone hasn't got to actually do a read every, every week. And so like, yeah. Yeah. But you know that there are a very small handful of, of sort of UK focused shows. And, and, and to me, this is really the, the only one that Springs to mind, uh, of one that is actually has baked in ads that are, that are read by the hosts that are part of the show.
[00:17:42] So you take. And, and, and it, it, it doesn't, it just doesn't map. Right. So it's, it's hard for me to, to really get a sense of it. You know, how does it, how does it feel for you? You listen to a lot of podcasts, obviously. Yeah.
[00:17:56] Brendan: I listened to a lot of podcasts and a lot of ads. Um, and obviously they work on me.
[00:18:01] Um, I mean, I've, I've used blue apron. I have a hollow pillow. Um, I, uh, I obviously have the way suitcases, uh, And I'm forgetting a bunch of others that I have Squarespace because of, um, of that, like from years ago. And, uh, uh, however, I, I use hover for all my domains. Um, you know, um, on one hand it seems like a huge number.
[00:18:26] It's awesome. I love that. More, more important to me than the number is the, is the 80% rise from the previous year. That is a great sign. Um, I don't. I don't like Blake, Jonathan Goldstein said, I don't think it's a bubble. Uh, even with that big rise considering how far and wide podcasts and can really become and how many more companies can use, um, can use podcasting that, that haven't even looked at it yet.
[00:19:00] It's cool. I love hearing from. The advertisers, like seeing advertisers on Twitter being like, yes, we love podcasts. We love what they do. We love how our ad reaches people. And it's obviously very effective for certain segments. Like the blue aprons and the Squarespaces and stuff who do a ton of podcasts ads.
[00:19:21] They keep doing it, obviously, because it's work it's, I mean, they're not, it's not a charity, you know? Um, so they're, they're getting their money back from it. So I'm, I'm, I'm very optimistic about. How much money, uh, podcasting is making there's, there's the, there's the side of me. That's a little bit worried about people.
[00:19:42] Uh, not necessarily like a cast or anything like that, but that want to be in that want to be the middleman that want to be in there. And, um, being the broker I'm like one hand. It's great because. Not everybody can start up a relay FM and work with ever work with other advertisers individually. They need, they're just going to be a small time.
[00:20:04] They're just doing it. Part-time for fun or whatever, but they want to make a little money from it. And so they can go to a, uh, a Castro, an audio boom, or whatever, and have them. Take care of that, that difficult part and then take their cut, obviously. Cause I'm just, I'm just worried about people taking guts.
[00:20:19] Mark: I, I think my point kind of echoes that is that I want to see, um, cause I'm British, I'm a socialist and obviously, um, but I wanna see. I'm going to say this money trickle down. Yes. I absolutely want to say that. Um, and, or, or sort of spread out. And I think I, I'm kind of hating on a potential idea. So a podcast that I no longer listen to, um, had a, an interesting mode for a while that I thought I I've taken advantage of.
[00:20:49] Um, and really. How it works, which is, uh, buying your own ad spots for like $10 and $10 gets you, uh, mentioned. And as long as you keep your ad read fairly short, um, you just. PayPal payment and then write an email and say, this is what I want. Yeah. Uh,
[00:21:11] Brendan: the McElroy brothers do that a lot with their, with some of those shows what they do.
[00:21:14] They, um, the jumbotron. So for my brother and my brother and me, and, uh, the adventure zone, both do the jumbotron where just anybody can just put up a message and be like, you know, just saying hi to their friends. Or they can be like, uh, Hey, I have this podcast. And I think the listeners of this show would like it.
[00:21:30] And so they can just pay
[00:21:31] Mark: for their single ad. I completely forgot. Max Von had a name for it. That's absolutely. That's absolutely it. And it occurs to me that in theory, if let's say for example, a podcast hosting company made it really easy to create. Let's call it a jumbo Tron, uh, but with a different name, um, and facilitated taking the payments and obviously.
[00:21:59] Took a very small cup, but it, cause it wouldn't have to be the kind of cut that, uh, any middleman who has to do the manual work, because this would be an automated system. That's, that's the point. You know, the fact that it's automated means a smaller cut can be taken and it still be viable. Um, that could be a legitimate way, I think, because one of the things that sometimes.
[00:22:21] Kind of system gets useful sometimes it's just about saying, um, Hey, I really support the show and I've got, I've got a funny idea. Here's the funny idea. It'll be funny if you read that. And in other, in other times, it's. I've got a new show. You've got this show. I think your listeners would enjoy it, read this ad, you know, and, and for that to be, and for everyone to be okay with that arrangement, I think is, is great.
[00:22:49] Um, and so I think that might be something to explore. Yeah. Um, because. I as, as much as a lot of the tools that I I'm, I'm focused on with, with podium or around sort of the production of podcasts. One of the things that I badly want to do is find ways to help people either grow their shows or, or benefit from them in some way.
[00:23:13] And it, if this is a way that that's that's doable, then I really think, um, this is, this is something. To consider
[00:23:22] Brendan: I'd like that idea a lot, the most popular kind of version of that in a way that I've seen right now is Patrion where some people would choose to do a tier, like say $5 a month, $10 a month.
[00:23:34] You'd get a shit. But usually it's just like a shout out. It's just like, I thank you on air or on Twitter, but not necessarily like, um, all right, I'm going to give you this, uh, this little, um, donation or whatever, and I have this little read for you to do, which could be really helpful for both. The podcasters who could get a little trickle of income and for the other four, for the users of the, um, to get the little spot, whether it's a, another podcast or a service or, you know, whatever, it may be just a shout out for fun listeners.
[00:24:08] If you've heard this part of the podcast, uh, send us a tweet at betrayal. And on Twitter and let us know if that would be something that would work for you. Yes,
[00:24:17] Mark: absolutely. Well, so, so that's, that's kind of it now. You're in Denver. I am in
[00:24:24] Brendan: Denver, Colorado USA earth. Are
[00:24:26] Mark: you, uh, are you, uh, podcasting much this week?
[00:24:29] Brendan: I have been wanting to podcast so much more than I have been able to, but, uh, I did, I finished an episode of serendipity city, which is the, um, actual play podcast that. With, um, Michelle, the glycine, which is set, it's an, it's an ultimatum twenties, magical underworld. And it is, uh, it is super fun to edit.
[00:24:52] Cause we kind of edit it in a way that's almost audio drama link with a lot of sound effects and music and ambience and that kinda stuff. So, um, This edit came out. I had this catastrophe where, uh, I came to Denver thinking that I had sinked that file over to Dropbox. And it's my, my couple hours of pre editing I had done, uh, was not there.
[00:25:17] So. But luckily I had exported, uh, I that's one of the stereo mix of it. And I was able to line up my audio wave forms and, and, and at least not have to redo so much work. Anyways, that came out to be the best edit. I feel like yet I was really proud of it. So it was really fun that came out, uh, earlier this week.
[00:25:36] Uh I'm I'm going to edit right after this call. Um, the, an update teaser for. The next season of unplaced, which is a whore audio drama that I'm working on season two is doing the Indiegogo right now. I think I mentioned that before, and it's going strong. It's a it's past 30%. I think it might be even at 40 now.
[00:25:57] So we're really excited about that. And, uh, my plan is that for the rest of my time in Denver, I'm going to be starting to write some music for it and, um, getting some of the early editing done. So pretty excited about that. How about you? What's a. What's your podcasting week. Like,
[00:26:15] Mark: well, uh, I have got most of my, I think all of my editing jobs done including this one.
[00:26:22] I actually got this out. Um, which is good. Um, but yeah, uh, I I've, I've got a new, um, a new micro scheduling diary. So I have specific times for podcast editing, which is, which is nice. I
[00:26:35] Brendan: like that. I like that your little conversation on thread
[00:26:37] Mark: about that. Um, And it's yeah, it's, it's, it's kinda nice. And it's, for the most part it's working out and, uh, you know, it's, it's forcing me to do a few things that I don't normally do, like, uh, try and be better at social media.
[00:26:49] So also knows that as well. Yes. Um, thank you. Uh, yeah. So other than that, um, I'm going to be continuing to, uh, The Dickens, the Birmingham podcast festival and try and get people to come along because it's going to be really fun. We've got some really, really good shows. Uh, we've got a couple of sort of slightly well-known podcasts, which is intimidating, but nice and fun.
[00:27:13] That is super
[00:27:13] Brendan: exciting. Is it going to be like, Is it going to be like a main feed that somebody could subscribe to and listen to all the, I assume they're going to be, I mean, obviously they're gonna be recorded and put out into their individual
[00:27:24] Mark: feeds, right? That is the plan. The plan is, uh, there will be a master feed of, of everything sweet.
[00:27:31] And I will, I will do my level best to try and get them out as quickly as possible. Uh, I really want to try and, um, and push them out. Uh, I, I'm not going to hold myself to this, but if I can do sort of day off of, uh, slash night of, um, the, you know, each day, um, you know, very sort of unedited, very basic MP3 up.
[00:27:58] Um, it's it, you know, it's, it's, I, I'm very lucky that, uh, there is a podcast hosting service that means I don't have to do the metadata and stuff for each individual show that it actually, uh, you know, I haven't got. But sit with a bunch of ID, three tags that would take time. So, um, I can hopefully just, just drag them in, maybe even put them into a Dropbox folder and have them see yeah.
[00:28:19] Brendan: For any listeners out there. I got to tell you, if you haven't noticed already from this podcast episode, potent is awesome. There'll be a link of the show. Let's go check it out, mark. Won't say it. It's awesome. I love using podium. I go on there every day. I don't even do anything. I'm just looking at it.
[00:28:34] I'm just confessing those buttons. I'm like, oh, this is super fun. I didn't even know it did this.