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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
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Hello Sue. Hi. Here we are. We're the same company and we're doing a podcast on research. Proper stuff. We're going to talk proper things off the grown-up. But as we're both pretend or plastic scouses, we're not going to go down into a Scouse accent. Not fair. Just for listeners part, we're both plastic scouses and sometimes we end up in the depths of a Scouse conversation. Although just to cover something before we start going through some research stuff. You must be happy today if Everton's got a new owner. I am more than delighted. Yeah, I'm hoping there's a bit of hope. Do you reckon you'll stay up there? I think so. Yeah, we'll see. But congratulations, money. To pay for you, pay the rent for you, you're brilliant. Listen, we're gonna talk about this research stuff that you did in America, which when you said you were gonna do it, I was like, really, do we need it? But it's just fascinating, some of the stuff that's come out. Can you just? Tell me, how did it come about and how did you find the guys betting here? How did you start to think about it? It really is, I met the guys at one of the EGR events towards the end of last year. And we sat and we were having round tables and questions. And what really resonated with me is how they actually have feet on the street. They go out, they talk to the players. they are helping on board players. So they hear firsthand what the challenges are and then they're helping those players on board for various different operators. So they're not only getting a single experience, they're working across the board with the different operators and understanding what all those challenges are. So it's a really fascinating aspect that I don't think we as an industry have looked at closely enough. Yeah, because we often talk ourselves about underserved areas within payments because that's what we do. in a whole load of different areas. And they remind me, well, what were the districts? They went, districts, states, where did they go to? So states, I'm still a well-to-breach, so sorry about this. You are, you are. And even that, despite the accent, I am now also an American, so I'm a little bit, I have a little bit more authorized to speak on this subject. But what we decided to do was that we would look at three different states. We chose New Jersey, because obviously that's the legacy state that has had legalized sports betting the longest. We then looked at Colorado as it's the fastest growth state and then North Carolina, which at the time that we did the research was new. So we wanted to get those three different demographics. Established growth and brand new. Exactly. Was there much differences? Not really, I think with North Carolina there was probably more of those traditional pain points. We didn't focus too much on the specifics of why payments are hard because I think we all already know that. But that... that was probably the thing that came up the most in the new estate because they hadn't gone through or on boarding or had that pain of having a payment refused. Yeah. Well, we have both of us, coming from different angles, but the same passion about payments being involved in support and responsible gaming. And that was part and parcel of some of the conversations that you were having, right? Yeah, absolutely. I think because, you know, the conversation and obviously, certainly for our strategy as an organization in the US is very much geared towards responsible gaming and it's hugely important to us. But what we've seen when we were looking at research is that a lot of it's coming from the industry, like top down and not going, you know, bottom up from actually talking to the players and asking them, you know, do they know about it? What does it mean to them? Do they call it responsible gaming? And they don't. They do. I mean, we did so I was actually able but part of the face-to-face research with the betting Yeah, I was astounded by, but I think it's also really encouraging because over 75% of them said that responsible gaming was absolutely important to them. I wonder if we asked Brits or German residents the same question. I wonder if they would say the same thing. That's not for our conversation today. But I was on a panel here earlier and they're all talking about these different countries. See, here's the expression. Gob smacked at that. Me too. Me too. And I think it's interesting when you look at, well, what does that actually mean? And are they using the tools? So the next thing we ask them, so, well, do you use the tools? And I'm like, well, no, we know that they're there. Right. But we're not using them. So I think that's another challenge that we have as an industry is, you know, is the name right? Because when the player is looking at that and they're seeing, you know, responsible gaming, social responsibility, RG tools, I think the general consensus is, well, I only need that if I have a problem. If I don't have a problem, do I necessarily need to use those tools? So our joint friend Chrissie, she has copped on about that, said it's not the right title. But it's more about what you've got the tools. So did you go through that in this research of what they wanted or what they're willing to use or don't preach at me? Did you go through all that sort of stuff? We didn't, not so much from an RG perspective, but we took it down to a payments level and asked them, just remember to work for a payments company. Yeah, but how do you bet? Like what's the habit? Like how do you budget? Right, you know, what are you spending and what does that look like? And so, And again, that was fascinating because, and I don't have the exact figure, but I think it was over 50% said, well, yeah, I have a budget. But when we asked them how they budget, it's like, well, I just kind of create a guideline. And so then we asked, well, would you use tools? Absolutely. We would love tools. We would like to be able to maybe set a limit or have something that we could have some more controls over. They liked the time. the time spent on the site. That's what most of the operators have implemented. I think all of them have that now in the US where it actually pops up on the app and says, hey, look, you spent, yeah, you spent like, yeah. That resonated with a lot of them, but to actually have more ways of controlling their spending. Because as you and I both know, right, we're a fundamental part of this process. And I'm a firm believer that once I've deposited the money, I've spent it. We are the first part of that. And that's why I shout for all payments companies to to get on the same bandwagon. I was really pleased that in the panel today, there was a couple of them there that did the same thing. Yeah, I've got it on the figures here. It just says over 50% wanna be able to budget. And I'm thinking that this like, you know, I'll tell you, I'm British, Monzo's a challenger bank and they have budgeting tools within it. So it's the same thing, right? Why not? I use it. Yeah. The other thing that I found fascinating was that some of the responses like, well, I wanna be able to download my P&L. What? Because they need it for their tax returns. What do they need? So they're looking at their P&L, so their annuals, what their spend and losses over the year because- Because you guys have to do your own tax returns. Right. Yeah, and because I've, and forgive me, I don't know the limits, but over a certain amount, if you win over a certain amount, then you have to pay taxes. So therefore it needs to be declared. Right. Yeah. So I just found it so interesting because, you think of budgeting and- maybe from a restraint perspective, but it's more about I want to manage my money. You know, I have a, it's, what I got from being in person in the room with these guys is that it's more of a, it's like an entertainment budget, right? That's how they're spending. It's like, you know, whether I would go out and spend, you know, 300 bucks a month on dinner out, right? They're looking at it in the same way. They're just, you know, they're just spending it in a different manner. It's so fascinating to be able to get straight from, from the seated. Qualitative and focus groups stuff. Yes. And quantitative. Okay, cool. And are we, with Betting Hero, are we gonna publish that at some point? Are we gonna bring that out and tell everybody rather than just chitchat here in a podcast where you let people see the data? That'd be good. Absolutely, and it was quite wide-ranging. You know, I think it covered a lot of information. We looked at how are they playing, how are they budgeting. We also talked about how they feel about having data shared and, you know, being- having data shared across operators or being able to have like a single sign in like something that they came up that they know that they was a preferred tool. Were they okay about it? Yeah, surprisingly, so which I think is very different to the UK market where there's a lot more anxiety about identity. Depends on what generation you are. Yeah, if you're old, like paranoid about or like my mother that I'm happy to say she's a generation older than me. She's definitely a generation older, but she gets all the junk mail and then she puts it on the side because she doesn't want anyone to steal her identity. They're like, mum, they've already got your address. It just rend you. But I thought that was very interesting how what's coming from the play, they just want ease and they want simplicity. And obviously, you know, if we... if we as a payments company give them a bad experience, right, they're not blaming the payments company, they're blaming the operators. So we still have those traditional challenges, but something that's seamless and easy that can allow them more control. And I just found it fascinating what we're going to do with the research is sort of split that out into various different sections and then we'll publish it. Maybe we'll do a couple of more podcasts, but we'll definitely press release around it and we'll talk about how the player feels about their data. We'll talk about that player behavior. We looked into how many times, how many times they're depositing, how many times withdrawing, what's the cadence of that money going back in and out, and what does that mean to the operators from a business model standpoint. I think, Bill, and you were talking about taking this information and sharing it with the regulators, right? Absolutely, yeah. I think they're very keen to see it because I don't, I think I'm right in saying, and I'm sure that, you know, Jay and Ernie from Bedding Hero would back me up is that we are, we're the only ones that have been asking these questions so far, right? They're doing a lot of work with a lot of people in the industry, not just payments, but the operators. No one else is really focused on how does the player feel about this? What does the player need? It is a bit sad. Although I'm saying it's a bit sad, but we both said it's underserved. It's still a new market. I sat in a panel, well, moderated a panel today about mature markets. It's not a mature market on the online, it's new. No, it's still very new, yeah. And that's why I think it's so important to invest in research like this because we can all make assumptions. Well, I know that when you said, yeah, that's what you're gonna do, and I didn't know betting here until I met the guys separately. Now it's going, oh, not another survey that tells me this is how I got to do something. But it's, I... I actually know myself now from seeing some of this stuff. It's not just another certainly. And it is, it's about the fact you've been talking to them directly about this stuff. Yeah. Okay. It is smart. The point now of what's gonna happen with that is you're in charge of the US, you're for us, for the news there. Are you gonna take that and mold our product? Absolutely. Absolutely. The Zotac team knew that. Well, you know, I've started to feed that information in, but you know, as you know, we've taken our time to go into the US market. And one of the reasons was we looked at it very, very carefully and we knew that we needed a different approach. I come from a very customer first background, my background in retail, and I feel that there's a big gap in people not focusing on what the player needs and wants. We're so heavily regulated, you can get caught up in that red tape and the consumer experience, the player experience gets lost amongst the weeds. So absolutely we will be taking this research and we will be building up our, taking our existing product, but just tweaking it to improve it and bringing out something that's gonna be very unique and I think very powerful for the player. Another nod to that, I mean the US regulators that I've met and I've got to know. is the fact that they're interested and wanted to understand it as well. I've never been at a trade show where a regulator's called me name over to talk to me. It was fascinating. I think that's happening more and more. You know, you have the, you know, the roger being established, you know, all of the operators, RG's, everyone's talking about RG. And when we step outside of sports betting and look at gaming and DFS and daily fantasy, we know there's a movement towards RG. Definitely talk about that now that I don't understand what you just said. What did you call it? Daily fantasy sports. Daily fantasy. Fantasy sports. Yeah, DFS. So sports betting, daily fantasy, skills based, outcome based. Oh, okay. Did I not tell you about that? I put a few quid on the Grand National and I follow my team arsenal. That's not a safe bet. But that's, you know, where... the RG conversation is becoming so much more important. And I think we have to lead with that. And as you quite rightly say, hopefully other payments companies will come with us. Are we gonna do more, this research? We're gonna follow it up. I think so, well yeah. I mean, I'd wait and see. I've got four or five releases. If I sign off the budget. So, yes, I think we should. I think it should be a continuum because I think otherwise. We'd be arrogant not to, no? Just realized I've put myself on a podcast, on a video, and basically signed off the budget. And you're gonna sign this off, thank you. Just realized I've done that, yeah. But careful what you say. Now I think that's good, because once things get changed and people start to make more things, it's important. What was your favorite bit at the focus group bits? Who was your favorite that was there? I know you can't name them. I don't wanna give too much away, because it's gonna lead into one of these segments that we're going to release, which I'm actually very excited about. But I think just being, just seeing who these average players are, and they're not who we think they are. They're really not. And just to be able to talk to them and see how they bet, and that the games that they enjoy or the sports that they're betting on is just fascinating. Because again, I think, like I said earlier, we make assumptions and we're wrong. Based on that, we could be very wrong. So yeah, I don't want to give too much away. I like being wrong for the right reason. But just to give you a little teaser, you know, we talk about KYC all the time, right? We talk about know your customer. And so I think the headline is gonna be, do we really, do you really know your customer? Yeah, we've got your ID number, but we actually don't know who you are. Yeah, yeah. So thank you. This has been quite fascinating to me. by the way, we work together. And I do know that some of this stuff, but I've actually not had time to sit and go through exactly what you just discussed. I kind of knew about it. And I was reading some of the data, but to hear it straight away like that. So I'm looking forward to what we're gonna do with it. And I'm looking forward to talking to the operators and the regulators. Exactly. And yeah, cool. I'm looking forward to my next budget. Thank you very much. Yeah, I know. It's my big blunder today. Yeah. But let's see how everything do, shall we? Let's see if you stay up. Thank you. All right.