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John Bower joins Stephen for part two of our Relational Needs series. Today, we discuss the concept of the emotional cup, what causes us to leave emotions unprocessed, the importance of just being present, how to talk with your mentee about their emotions, and why it's important to differentiate between thoughts and feelings.
Show Notes
- John Bower - https://www.jsbower.com/
- Normandy Church - https://normandychurch.com/
Creators and Guests
What is You Can Mentor: A Christian Youth Mentoring Podcast?
You Can Mentor is a network that equips and encourages mentors and mentoring leaders through resources and relationships to love God, love others, and make disciples in their own community. We want to see Christian mentors thrive.
We want to hear from you! Send any mentoring questions to hello@youcanmentor.com, and we'll answer them on our podcast. We want to help you become the best possible mentor you can be. Also, if you are a mentoring organization, church, or non-profit, connect with us to join our mentoring network or to be spotlighted on our show.
Please find out more at www.youcanmentor.com or find us on social media. You will find more resources on our website to help equip and encourage mentors. We have downloadable resources, cohort opportunities, and an opportunity to build relationships with other Christian mentoring leaders.
Mentors jump into mentoring relationships for a lot of different reasons. It may be because they had a mentor growing up. It could be because they know what it's like to not have a dad around. It could be because of something they saw in the news. It could be because they know that they can't commit to foster care but could make a weekly mentor relationship work.
Speaker 1:All in all, mentors have something to give. That's what gives them the confidence to jump in the mentoring. But there's a problem with this approach. Mentors can come into the mentoring relationship focused on what they have, what they can teach, what they bring to the table, what they're desiring for the relationship. It's good to have experience, skills, and desires and goals for the relationship.
Speaker 1:Don't get me wrong. Rather than focusing on sharing their wealth of knowledge or imparting skills, effective mentors focus on meeting relational needs. Relational needs are the bedrock of mentoring relationships with kids from hard places. In this series, we're gonna be discussing relational needs in mentoring relationships with John Bauer, the lead pastor of Normandy Church in Dallas, Texas. Welcome back to the Youkumentor podcast.
Speaker 1:My name is Steven, and I am back at it again with my main man, Jon Bauer.
Speaker 2:Back at it again with the white vans.
Speaker 1:I love that little thing that happened with that guy with the white vans. Did I
Speaker 2:just culturally appropriate that?
Speaker 1:I think you did. I think I did. Well, hey. Thanks for coming back for episode 2 of the relational needs series. That means a lot to me.
Speaker 1:That meets my relational needs. All 10 of you that listen to this podcast, thank you so much for for jumping back in. And we're gonna we're gonna talk about the emotional cup. That sounds like very weird without context.
Speaker 2:I'm a black glass case of emotion.
Speaker 1:But we're just gonna talk about how when emotional our emotional and relational needs are going unmet or we're experiencing the world, we have this we have this need to process those things. And sometimes well, I don't wanna get into it too much. I also, you're the expert, so I shouldn't be talking right now. Should I ask you to, like, give a summarization of what the emotional cup is before I share the story, or should I just share the story?
Speaker 2:I just for those of you listening, the idea of a cup, it's not a perfect metaphor, but it's a metaphor for our emotions. And if you listen to the first episode, we talked about emotions are positive in nature. They give you energy to do something. But if they're buried alive, they never die. And so we're gonna get into that the idea of a cup that when it's full up with what someone called negative emotions, what's gonna come out is behavior and deeds that aren't that pretty.
Speaker 2:So we're gonna talk about how you can see through, like, the lens of what is going on in the top of the behavior, what's going on in the heart or the cup. And so earlier, we were talking about one of the stories that you had just in your role here at 4 Runner. So I thought they'd be a great segue into to try and understand the heart Yeah. Or the cup.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, I mean, we run an after school program. We pick up kids every day from a few elementary schools around our neighborhood. And my bus is crazy. We got 12 kids who are k through 6 jumping on my bus.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow. And my primary responsibility is their safety. So much testosterone. And and so if they make it onto my bus from the 15 feet from the front door, they are now mine. I'm responsible for them.
Speaker 1:They must be protected. And so we have this moment. And when I say moment, I mean, maybe 15 minutes of putting on seat belts that occurs. Because sometimes you'll have kids take them off, and they see a friend. So they run out of the bus, and and they're like, no.
Speaker 1:That's that's not what has to happen here. You run down the kids.
Speaker 2:Is dying.
Speaker 1:But in this 15 minutes of getting seat belts on, usually, the one thing that works is I make eye contact with the kid, and I'm stern. Mhmm. And I tell them, I need you to be safe. I want you to be safe. I need you to put your seat belt on.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Good boundaries. And I don't take my eyes off of them until they start to move to do what I ask them to do. Well, usually, the kids stay in a very they sit in the same spots. And so one of the kids right behind me, I always it's it's clear when I'm looking at him, and I'm wanting him to do something.
Speaker 1:And so I I look him in the eyes and I say, hey. I need you to put your seat belt on. And his response to me was, well, the only reason you're saying that to me is because you're a racist. And and I I was startled by his response, because I was like, well, every day, I ask everyone to put their seat belt on. Why why today is this his response?
Speaker 1:And I say, I want you to be safe. I need you to put your seat belt on. He was like, stop being a racist. And I didn't know what to do in that moment, how to respond to what he was saying. Obviously, as a white man, I have implicit racial bias.
Speaker 1:Even said, like, why don't why don't you say that more to the kids in the back? Why don't you say that more to, one of our kids who's Hispanic? And I I think part of it was because he's just right behind me, and I I make a point to fight. I can get him to put his seat belt on. Others will follow suit.
Speaker 1:But I think in that moment, he was, yeah, he was letting me know he was letting me into a part of his emotional emotional thinking and his emotional world that I was less aware of, because he had never communicated that to me. And that wasn't a a one off basis. There were after that moment, it was about a month of well, the only reason you're saying that is because you're a racist.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And part of me is, like, that's just kids. But another part of it is, like, there's a deeper thing going on here Mhmm. That we need to, like, talk about and and get into. So
Speaker 2:Right. That's so good. And I don't mean from the standpoint of it it happened, but there's this one of my shrinks said he said mental and emotional health is the radical, unwavering commitment to reality at all cost. And so we talked last time about, you know, how do you go into these relationships and just I was like, all of your expectations are gonna be shattered and there's things that you're not gonna know what to do with. And so one of the realities I just wanna acknowledge is that there is a divide in our nation, whether we like it or not.
Speaker 2:There are racial tensions still, and I'm not an expert in that. But when I started doing foster care, I started to see the world from a different lens, a different framework from we had Anglo, Hispanic, African American kids, but seeing the world from their lens and their little eyes and hearts shaped me. It changed me. And so that's a good story. It's a terrible story.
Speaker 2:It's a sad story, but I think it's a great segue into the idea of the cup. And so, I say all it to say is, like, Steven, you might be racist. I don't know. I was I was telling we were doing the adoption process and,
Speaker 1:Well, that was the question in my head afterwards. I was, like, well, he's not wrong. Like, I do have a natural preference toward white people because I'm been conditioned that way, as well as I've taken a racial implicit bias test. I did not do well. And I have to question those things.
Speaker 1:But hearing it from a child was a different experience than from an adult, especially in a situation where I feel like my primary desire is to care for you. Mhmm. And that was the response I got.
Speaker 2:Right. So yeah. I mean, the first thing I would say is I don't know. There's much I don't know, and I think humility suits me better than pride or confidence in this. But I think the the reality is if you're getting into mentoring specifically, whether white, Hispanic, Asian, there's going to be barriers to entry.
Speaker 2:There's going to be hindrances to intimacy, and that's really the definition of sin in the Bible. It's like things that separate or really shame, honestly, from that book I mentioned last time from Kurt Thompson's shame. What it does is it disintegrates our relationship with God and with others and our purpose. And whether or not that statement was true, there's something behind that that's driving him. And that's kinda what you wanted to talk about today is the idea of the cup.
Speaker 2:And so while I think you're in that that context, that relationship, and you're hearing the, his worldview is coming and just smashing yours and crushing yours and questioning yours, and I I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think the the the point of this podcast in particular, and I think a great topic would be is, like, how do you deal with cultural, racial, prejudicial, if that's the word, presidential barriers to mentoring. But this context, this precious one, if you can see the need behind the deed, there's something there that is coming out. And so his statement was offensive, might have some truth to it, but the reality is that there is an underlying bias, underlying thing in the air of racism or prejudiced or just not knowing. Like, you just don't have intimacy, so you don't know the other person.
Speaker 2:You haven't walked them on their shoe, and that's gonna hinder it. But I think just hearing that story that there's a need behind the deed. Mhmm. There is what we say in the cup is there's this idea of some undealt with emotions that are coming out. And, by the way, this is the a friend of mine talks about teaching moments.
Speaker 2:I would say, this is a teaching moment, you know, Steven. And for this kiddo, this is a teaching moment is that there's something in him that's coming out, and it's coming out in a negative sense, meaning you might be negatively interpreting it or negatively receiving it, but theirs is hard on display. And, again, I don't know the truth of whether or not you are racist or the implicit bias or any of that stuff. I don't know that. What I know is that there is a moment right there is a moment.
Speaker 2:It's a chance for healing and intimacy and to change the trajectory of his life in your life. It's those little moments that are gonna create those attachments if you're willing to to suffer the pain of that moment and to stand your ground to where you can see the need behind the deed, and that are the those are the moments that are gonna bring healing and wholeness. So with that, just a transition to the cup, you'd asked about it. So if you could picture a cup, and I'm sure this will be in this show notes, so picture a glass and you have it full, hopefully, with beautiful sparkling delicious Topo Chico.
Speaker 1:Oh, soli Solier from Albertsons.
Speaker 2:I I don't think that's a thing, and I know Albertsons is good and cheap, but Topo Chico is the stuff that I like. And so picture it with this beautiful beautiful bubbles and just color not colorful, but rather clear and crystal and delicious and and all that stuff. And so that's the heart that's full of appropriately expressed emotions, joy and safety and peace and security. But as you and I know, life happens and we get filled with some negative what we experience is negative emotions. So part of the way our cup gets full, our heart gets full is from our past.
Speaker 2:So how we've experienced the world in the context of our family, teachers, mentors, churches, businesses. Part of the way our cup gets full is with our thoughts. This is somewhat controversial, but I tell people often because I learned this, but you can control your anxiety. Like, you can ramp it up to a 10 and start worrying about what people think or what's gonna happen with COVID, about things that you can't control. So you can make your anxiety go from a 0 to a 10 if you put enough effort into it so your thoughts can fill that cup.
Speaker 2:And then your experiences, how you experience the world and and what your mentee was experiencing in that moment or at least expressing it was racism is causing this. And even beyond that is, like, I'm not accepted because I'm black. I'm not approved of because I'm black. So, basically, screw you. And that's on one sense, it's not a bad expression.
Speaker 2:He's like, his heart is on display.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And then the other way that this cup gets full is with unmet relational needs. So if people literally haven't left their world to enter into yours, if they haven't comforted you and you've had pain, if they haven't provided security when you've had fear, those unmet emotional needs are gonna become toxic, and they're gonna become toxic emotions. And so that idea that toxic emotions buried alive, they never die, so they're there. And so in that moment, in the chaos of the moment, you're hitting something, you're being authoritarian. Well, you have to be.
Speaker 2:I mean, those boundaries we talked about, like, I primarily, and that's what I would say to my foster kids, is my number one job is to keep you safe. That's my number one job, and that's that my Maslow's hierarchy of need of security, food, shelter. And you're doing that in the chaos and the the the prepupescent testosterone, and that's what comes out. And that's just a terrible but beautiful example of this precious one is hard on display and it's coming out. And so it's hard to think of that in the moment, Steven, but just looking back on it, what what might you say is the emotional need that you're seeing?
Speaker 2:So if you leave your world and leave the self leave the self examination for a moment, which is good. Don't don't I'm not saying that's bad. Yeah. But if you're just leaving your world and entering into his, what are you seeing is the need behind the deed? Let's back it up one.
Speaker 2:What is the emotion that you're seeing flow out of him in that statement? If you can just, for a second, enter into his world, what would it be?
Speaker 1:I think it was anger. Mhmm. And and I think that's, like, the the greatest point in that is that in that moment, I was not thinking about him. I was only thinking about myself. And what he said, how it affected me, and it led me into my own internal world of questioning, am I a racist?
Speaker 1:Like, did I do something wrong? Like, could I have done something better? What am I gonna do next? And that entire process, like, left me in myself and not thinking about what happened today in school right before he walked out.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:What Happened at home. What what's going on in his apartment complex? What experiences has he had with white people that have influenced that reaction? And what has he seen, in his own life of being made a an example or being perceived as as different because of his blackness. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And how did that inform that moment that he had with me? And just I'm I mean, I've even been saying in this moment, I'm starting to think about that. Mhmm. Like because I'm all up in myself, and I think that's probably more mentors would say that of how their mentor is interacting with them. We see it as a reflection of ourselves and how well we're doing and not necessarily entering into their world and understanding why they're doing the things they're doing Right.
Speaker 1:Because of their own experiences and thoughts.
Speaker 2:And so you're giving me a bunch of facts, reason, and logic. So I wanna say, hey, you probably got it right. There's anger. I would say that there's probably some a bunch of stuff hurt, maybe sadness, maybe fear, maybe shame. All I mean, it's complicated.
Speaker 2:You're complicated. I'm complicated, but you just gave me facts, reasons, and logic. But in that moment, what I heard you doing is relating emotionally first. And there's some of those it's kind of like one of those moments where the camera pans backwards and all of a sudden, like, that staring look where you're like, oh my gosh. And so your brain relationally, your fear center is up.
Speaker 2:You're like, I gotta keep these kids safe. They're not glad to be with me. And our brain remember, our brain is so wired. Like, we have, like, these mirror neurons that, like, our identity is formed by what people say about us. And that's part of, like you know, hopefully, that's being whole by the time I'm 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, like, in transition moments, like 13, those kind of what are they called?
Speaker 2:Kinda like ceremonial moments where, like, well, you know, Juju became a big boy, my son. Now at 13, hey. You're becoming a young adult. Hey. At 18, you're a man.
Speaker 2:Those what are they called? Anyway, it's like without those passage? Yeah. Right of passage. Thank you.
Speaker 2:But my point is, in those moments, like, you were just reacting in such an emotional relational standpoint, and so is he. Mhmm. And it's like you you can't come up with the facts, reasons, and logics and say, you know, hey, young man. Well, actually, I do have some implicit racial bias. And part of that is because of my own growing up and then also because of, dispensationalism setting us up through a heaven or hell mentality and blah blah blah.
Speaker 2:That none of that's gonna work. In that moment, his guttural reaction and who he really was came out, and that who he really was was impacting who you really are. And what that really was doing was showing what's in your cup and your own thought life.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And that's, like, the beauty and the terror of these idea of needs and how we're wired. And if we can stay for just a few more moments, that's where the intimacy comes because usually what happens before the calm is the storm. And I just this week with my my kiddo, my oldest, I had some conflict with him, and we had some discipline, and I had some repenting to do. And in those moments was the sweetest stuff. We were both in tears.
Speaker 2:I was telling him who he was, and he was telling me who I was, I mean, a 7 year old. And that came out of pain, but it's, like, we wanna avoid the pain at all cost. Philip Yancey writes this book called Pain is the Gift That Nobody Wants, and he talks about the story of a leper colony where in India, there's a young man with leprosy and he starts running, and they're not supposed to do that because what leprosy does is it numbs your ability to feel. So in essence, his foot breaks off at the ankle and he's running on a nub, but he's beat all of his other fellow lepers to lunch, and he doesn't feel the fact that he's now has no foot. And so pain is this terrible gift that nobody wants but it's beautiful because what it's really revealing is that those intimate desires to know and be known, and there's all of that junk that gets in the way of it.
Speaker 2:And all of a sudden, you've left his world and you're back in your world, and you're going, how do I even deal with this? So, again, last time we talked about framework. And so it's like, how do we get a framework? So when those moments come, I'm starting to learn how to navigate it. And part of it, bro, just grace to you because you literally like, if you don't keep them safe, you're fired and go to jail.
Speaker 2:Yes. So shalom on your head, but don't know. Give me a little feedback there. Anything that's striking a chord with you on that that stands out just as it pertains to the cup and then to this interaction with your mentee?
Speaker 1:Well, I think I think just the main place that my mind is going is us us not recognizing that the overflow of our mentees or in any of those situations, like, that's causing our overflow to come out as well. And that they're in that interchange recognizing recognizing that a part of that situation, it revealed what was inside me, as well as what was inside him. Mhmm. And that that there's a a level of yeah. I mean, I I love what you said of of of sticking in the moment Mhmm.
Speaker 1:With him, which which after we we came to program, and I kept him behind. And I didn't interrogate him on, like, I I could have been like, well, why did you call me a racist? Like but I knew that wasn't what I was supposed to do in the moment. We did have a talk, and I was like, I I I apologize to him. And I told him, I was like, hey.
Speaker 1:You know, you always sit right here, right next to me, and I like where you sit in the bus. But I realized that that leads me to recognize when you're not doing what you're supposed to be doing. And sorry if that comes off as me isolating you or making you an example and calling you out in different ways from other people. So I wanna grow within that. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And that conversation did not solve our problem. No. And and so yeah. I mean, I think a lot of our mentors will probably end up in those places where even Well,
Speaker 2:if you're doing it the right way, they better. Like, conflict is the only way you could form anything of health is, in my opinion, is with with a healthy measure of conflict. Yeah. Because I
Speaker 1:I But but to think that that my emotional cup is not going to come out on the kid that I'm mentoring is misguided. That I can't just be the perfect mentor for the kid that I'm investing in, and that's a sobering thought. Because I think every mentor wants only the good stuff that we've held on to to come out, but the problem is the stuff that's within us is gonna come out.
Speaker 2:I agree, and I wanna give hope to you and to myself and others about this. And it's this idea that as we are formed from a Christian standpoint, as we are formed into the image and likeness of Christ, like, could you imagine the the the patience of Jesus and the peace of Jesus? There were no questions that were off limit. John the b, John the Baptist, you know John the b. John the b.
Speaker 2:He comes to Jesus. He's in prison. He prophesied earlier. Remember the story of this? So he's, like, he baptized Jesus, and he's, like, look, that dude's the savior.
Speaker 2:He's in prison about to have his head cut off. He has his disciples go to Jesus and go, hey, dog. Are you the one, or should we expect another? And so he's, like, having a crisis. And so with Jesus, there's no questions that are off limits.
Speaker 2:So in essence, Jesus, his own peace and patience and overflow actually provides an environment where those questions can be asked. And not that he was asking a question, this mentee, but he was his statement, he was speaking his truth. You're a freaking racist. You know, screw you. I mean, I don't he didn't say that stuff, but that's probably in there.
Speaker 2:And what I think is is that you and I and others listening can become so whole, have a healthy enough ego that we can hear those things and still be in a place of peace, of patience. And then when it's appropriate because that moment was not the appropriate moment for self examination. That was the moment for safety. And I'm glad you did that. But I'm, like, oh, if I could just envision myself as so full of peace and patience with a healthy ego that I'm, like, I'm unshakable because that's the way Jesus was.
Speaker 2:And we're not gonna get there overnight, but that gives me a vision for what I can become. There's something of weight and worth to who I am, and that's what I want for the mentees. You know? Like, you I want you to grow up into fullness to have something to you that you can withstand the crap that this world throws you.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But you ain't gonna do it unless you deal with your ish, forgive my French. Unless you recognize and respond and know the purpose of these emotions, it's only gonna come out negatively. Oh, you're gonna be that leper that runs around with no feet.
Speaker 1:Because
Speaker 2:you've you've numb you're sufficiently numbed yourself to the reality, the the that's that mental health. You have to be radically committed to reality at all cost. So that means internally and then his reality. Hard enough to be committed to our reality, let alone theirs. That's why having that framework of the cup is so helpful.
Speaker 2:So yeah. What about what about
Speaker 1:the cup? Like, what is it in us that causes us to leave emotions unprocessed? Is there something within us that that loves doing that, or it's, like, physiological? Why do traumatic experiences? And it's kind of apparent that things that are negative stay with us.
Speaker 1:Things that are positive, like, are fleeting. And that's why we usually don't in confrontation or in moments like that, the celebratory or positive things don't come out, because that's not usually what fills our cup. What usually fills our cup is our traumatic experiences. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So but I'm
Speaker 1:I'm more just thinking, like, what is it about us that is inclined to fill the cup, or do we control what fills our cup?
Speaker 2:That's a lot of questions. I wanna go back to the from my understanding of the neurology of it, your subconscious, has your fear center and your joy center in your subconscious. So your fear center is wired to keep you safe, so, like, physically safe, like I talked about last time. And your joy center is wired to get you to feel good. You want to feel good.
Speaker 2:Yes. I will have a glass of wine because I will feel good. Yes. I will eat that chocolate. Yes, I will eat all of those chips right before I go to bed because of the sheer joy that it causes me.
Speaker 2:Yes, I will look at pornography. Yes, I will whatever it is that you'll do because you want to feel good. So you're wired to not be in pain and then wired to feel good, and you're going to do that subconsciously whether you like it or not. Now you said, this is a great question. What fills our cup?
Speaker 2:Well, that's what I was trying to say at the beginning, our past, our thoughts, our experiences, our needs being met or unmet. And a lot of us don't have a choice of what fills it, at least at the early age. Mhmm. But we do have a choice, and this was a huge shift for me the last 2 years because I am I don't know how to I am a huge feeler. I love feelings.
Speaker 2:I get high highs and low lows, and I would be a 4 on the Enneagram except for I'm a commander. I'm an 8, and I don't give a rip about you fours and how silly your self actualization is. Sorry. Anyway, my point is a 4.
Speaker 1:She's in. She's gonna throw bows with you.
Speaker 2:That's fine. I I actually enjoy conflict, so it'll make me feel like she she honors me. So my point being is our cup is going to get full, and the biggest changes and this if we can get rid of that victim mentality is, like, I may not be responsible for what's happened to me, but now I'm responsible for how I respond to it. And that gives you and others a sense of control. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Because we think we can control the outcomes, but we flat out can't. I can't control whether or not my kid sleeps. I can do everything I can to set them up for success. I can't control whether or not our church grows. I can't control whether or not people listen to this podcast.
Speaker 2:I can't control whether or not I make money. I can do my part, but you can have a freaking pandemic. Give me a break. We are not in control. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But our choice and where we can be empowered is is, like, how we respond to it. But the thing is is that we have not been trained how to respond to it. And there's something to be said about, like, the stoics of the baby burners, and they grind, and they work hard, and they screw their emotions, and they're, like, no. I'm gonna work hard because of responsibility for it. And there's something to be said for these newer, like, the self expression and speaking of truth.
Speaker 2:There's some good in that, but it's like we've never been trained how to master this stuff and how to face reality at all cost. And so we might be brilliant in accounting or music or mentoring, but we can't even deal with our own ish because we don't know what the purpose of hurt is or pain or fear or guilt or shame or joy or intimacy, and so we don't know what to do with it. And so that's why, like, this this it's kind of a silly story, but my my wife and I got married. We had $90,000 of debt. And, like, we have all of us have a little bit of training, so I ask people, like, it's it's a trick question.
Speaker 2:How did we pay off our debt? And so, Steven, how did we pay off our $90,000 of debt?
Speaker 1:You probably used money.
Speaker 2:Well, you got the answer right. But some people are like, well, you saved or you, like, cut expenses. Like, no. I used money. 90 k plus freaking interest.
Speaker 2:Oh. I mean, I just still have a bitter judgment against it. But the same thing is true of emotions. It's like if you have an emotional debt, you're not gonna pay it off just by
Speaker 1:With something else.
Speaker 2:With you have to use those emotions to get out of it. And that's why pain is a gift. And so I think both that, like, idea of, like, the subconscious or fear and our joy, like, our fear center keeps us safe and our joy center keeps keeps us feeling good. We don't want to feel those things, probably because we haven't been trained to and also because it hurts. It's like, even when you say, about this idea of you being a racist, you're looking at the shadow part of you.
Speaker 2:That's that Jungian phrase of that shadow is that part of you that leads all the way to hell. And maybe there is a party that if you let it, it will produce some sort of racist hell, and it'll bring destruction to you and your family or whatever. And so there's that element of, like, having the courage to face it. And it doesn't mean you're, like, full with, like, Superman bravery. It's just that you're literally facing it.
Speaker 2:You're facing reality at all cost, and that is difficult. So, anyway, I hopefully, that answers your question. We haven't really talked about the cup, but, a little bit. I like this. I'm having fun.
Speaker 1:Well, let me just get back to the the bullet points. So it it's kinda clear from our conversation that what's spilling out of us is representative of unprocessed pain, and I wonder if that's the the disconnect between the fear center and the joy center of, like well, maybe the joy center is us not wanting or us wanting to feel good. And so because we've experienced trauma, we're going to suppress it so that we feel good and not actually process it. And so I wonder if you could could share what what leads us to avoid processing traumatic experiences. Well, when
Speaker 2:you say trauma, that's a really big word. And so we I they talk about the idea of what's filling the cup. Trauma, in my opinion, is really the presence of bad. So it's like abuse. That's, like, complete neglect going back to last last pause podcast when we were talking about those orphans in an, a crib that never have ever paid attention to.
Speaker 2:That's bad or or or evil or some sort of sexual abuse, physical abuse. But then the cup will get filled with unmet relational needs. No one paid attention to me. I wasn't accepted, etcetera, etcetera. And so that's part of the past and part of our thoughts that are shaping our worldview as we're experiencing the world, those things will fill the cup.
Speaker 2:So when you think about it from the from the form of a mentor to mentee in that moment, I think part of the thing is, like, framing out what your role is in that moment and how you respond. And then with that idea of framing out seeing the need behind the deed and trying like you said, he was probably feeling anger.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Why
Speaker 2:are you calling me out, dude? You know, mingled with some pain, shame, sadness. So, anyway, I I I think understanding or framing out what your role is in that. So first off is, like, caregiver, as employee, and then as mentor. Like, you're not their counselor.
Speaker 2:You're not their father. You're not their teacher. You're a mentor, and what you're trying to do is mentor them. And so that kinda takes some of the burden off of, like, what all you're responsible for, coupled with seeing the need behind the deed and understanding both the purpose and the good side of, like, an anger or whatever else, I think that helps you kind of see beyond just the the comment, the the, I would say bodacious, the really outlandish. It may not be outlandish, but just, like, big statement, just like you're a racist.
Speaker 2:And so I think if you can frame out both, like, your role, your responsibility, and then start to see the need behind the deed and, like, almost gearing yourself up to beforehand, you can start to unpack how you should respond in those moments. Yeah. So, yeah, but you you had asked the question what leads us to avoid processing those things? I think it's just fear or a lack of someone mentoring us in it. Because even in that moment, you got hit and just can kinda see you, you know, again, kind of flailing a little bit in your internally, whether you expressed it physically or not.
Speaker 2:I I think that's just primarily we haven't been trained. We don't have the tools to do it Mhmm. Unless you've been through lots of counseling and training like I have. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, I I guess even in talking about traumatic experiences, a lot of things that are traumatic, we don't even know are traumatic.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:So I asked the kid that I mentor, hey. How's your relationship with your dad? He'll say good. But is it is it good? Is really anybody's relationship with their dad good?
Speaker 1:Like, I mean, what is podcast? That's a big question. But, I mean, I think about my relationship with my dad, and, like, yes, I can say in this moment, yes, we are civil or we're we talk occasionally. But if I get into my relationship with my dad, there are experiences of how with my dad that were traumatic. And as a mentor, when I ask that question, I'm wanting him to spill the beans.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. I'm wanting him to tell me, like, the stuff that he feels. But most of the answers that I get are just good. We and and I think for the most part, I I'd love I'd love if mentoring was just super easy that if we ask Mhmm. Kids about their traumatic experiences, they would just tell us about their past, their thoughts, their experiences, all the stuff that you're talking about that's in the cup.
Speaker 1:In some way, I feel like mentoring is about getting into the cup and acknowledging what's there and helping the kid recognize it's there, but it's not that easy. No. It's not just asking that question.
Speaker 2:It's a 4 letter word. It takes time. Time does not heal all wounds, but relation like, somebody said once we move at the speed of trust. And so we talk about the cup. We talk about sacred space.
Speaker 2:Like, it came out a little bit unholy. You're a racist. But that sacred space, that's really what he thinks based off something he really, really feels or really, really experiences whether you think it's true or not. And so, you know, part of what you're asking or about to ask was, like, how do we how do we see the need behind the deed? How do we deal with the cup, and how do we build up others and, like, help them process what's going on the inside?
Speaker 2:And so I would just say, first off, you gotta have the framework. You're seeing the action, bombastic statement. Seeing the emotion, hurt, anger, shame, whatever. Seeing the need behind the deed, maybe security, approval, acceptance. And so from that end, you start from the need.
Speaker 2:So in that moment, if there's anger, then there's probably some hurt underneath that. Anger is usually, not always, but usually a secondary emotion. Anger is usually in response to either, hurt, sadness, which is directed at the past, or fear. And it's probably for this kiddo a mixture of both. Well, you, Mary, are a racist and you're gonna ruin our relationship, so I'm gonna go ahead and cut it off, so screw you.
Speaker 2:Or it's hurt. Well, white people always do this to me. And what's lost in all that is the need behind the deed, approval. You know, if I could my my wife and I, when we have fights sometimes, I go back and say, this is what I would do if I could come back with the white hat as the hero figure and come in and do this again. And it's like, hey, babe.
Speaker 2:This is who you are. This is where I was wrong. This is how I wish I could've handled that situation. So in that moment, I'm like, you know why I want you to sit there? It's because you're the leader.
Speaker 2:And you know what? You might be right. I might have some racism. I'm trying my best, but you're helping me figure that out because that's what you're made for, and that's flat out approval. You are a leader, and I hold you to a higher expectation.
Speaker 2:Some of that might be because I'm a white racist, but some of it is because I don't care what color you are, acceptance. Where you've been, acceptance. I think you are a leader. And just the acceptance, man, thank you for telling me that. That's what you really think.
Speaker 2:That's okay. I don't like it. That's okay. I don't like it. It hurts me.
Speaker 2:It makes me scared. That's okay. And that's that appropriate vulnerability that can that brings a conductive environment conducive to healing, to intimacy. So you're seeing that need behind the deed, and you're responding that way. That's why you've left your world because he's he's not virtue signaling.
Speaker 2:He's just signaling, I there is something in my cup and you're hitting it, I don't like it. And if you can get past your own ish and his own yucky behavior, an imperfect way of communicating, you can see something that's precious and gold. And now that's a dream situation, but you, like, learn how to do that moving forward. And so I don't know if you wanna respond to that because I have one more thought just about how to cultivate that in the meantime. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, we we've had kids in our program. They'll our coaches will communicate their love, their acceptance. A common response I've heard is, you don't know who I am. Mhmm. Like, you're saying that because you know this part of me, but you don't know all of me.
Speaker 1:And there's there's this feeling of, like, if you really knew me, you wouldn't you wouldn't accept me.
Speaker 2:Is there anybody that doesn't have that thought in the back of your head? Why do you think we put all the b s crap on Facebook? It's basically the emperor with no clothes on. I mean, it's ridiculous. The amount of crap that we do to prop ourselves up, you're so I had freaking that's what you call shame, by the way.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. There's something wrong with me. If you really knew me, you would not accept me. You would reject me. So go ahead and don't give me your white superhero stuff and go screw yourself in essence.
Speaker 2:And that's and it's, like, even in that, what's the need behind the deed? And they're probably right. Like, if you knew what they did or where they came from, you may not like them. You may not accept them. It's intimacy is both the most healing thing it's terrifying.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. To actually be known and known is what we all want. It's in your brain. I don't care if you're Christian or what else. You want that.
Speaker 2:But they're I mean, that is a sacred holy moment. And they're all basically saying, not now. Prove it. And the only way you can prove it is with conflict, in my opinion. I keep on coming back to that.
Speaker 2:But keep keep going. I'm sorry to interrupt, but you hit a passion point for me.
Speaker 1:Well, I think part of I think part of that is we all tell our own stories. We have our own narrative of who people are. Mhmm. And in in a way, that's our expectations that go unmet. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Because we create a narrative of who this person is. And when they fall out of that narrative,
Speaker 2:they're
Speaker 1:and but they show us who they really are. Like, rather than meet them there and accept that person, there is a temptation to be like, no. I I need you to get back into who I thought you were Right. And the narrative that I'm writing. And I think in a way, mentoring is less about I mean, just within this conversation, it's less about creating a direction for the life of a kid and more of Presence.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And more of acknowledging and speaking into the life of who someone really is, allowing them to write their story and accepting them for who they are and who they're gonna be and and all of those things. It's not about, well, this is the way you should go go and walk in it. Mhmm. Which I feel like that's most most most of our
Speaker 2:Well, there's so many good things. I can't even handle this. It's like Snoop said, it was so good. I had to back on up. That was probably really cultural appropriation, but there's so much gold in what you said.
Speaker 2:Because part of what, if you can go back to Christianity and Jesus, part of what discipleship is, Jesus said, hey. Repent. The kingdom of heaven is at hand. It basically means come follow me. But there's this great thing we learned in foster care, but you basically join follow to lead.
Speaker 2:So, like, you are supposed to lead them in a new healthy way. The idea of repentance is, like, you're going this way, and that's towards the shadow in hell. Let me show you another way. But you can't do that unless you attach to them, and you can't attach to them unless you spend time with them and learn to see the need behind the deed and actually enter into their world and leave your own selfish world behind and your expectations and dreams, and you just validate them for who they are. And then you can do it.
Speaker 2:So the idea is, like, you join them where they're at. You follow where they're going in order to lead them back to a healthier
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Place. And that takes time and energy and effort. Like, think about like, Jesus had 3 years with these guys, and he spent basically every waking moment, 3 Passovers. And we think we're gonna change the course of their life by 45 minutes a day with them, and we prayed for them once. Every other week.
Speaker 2:Congratulations. You're a huge joke, and get over yourself. You can't even change your kid's life. Give me a break. I mean, sorry.
Speaker 2:That's my inner pain coming out. God. But so, like, there is an element where you are supposed to lead them. But the but Jesus did was he left his world and entered into theirs. And so, man That's really good, Joan.
Speaker 2:It's what you're saying is so freaking profound. And the other thing I would say in this is if you can pay attention to the need behind the deeds, one of the needs is honor. And I totally ripped this off from Bill Johnson. But honor is honoring who they are, not who they're not, without stumbling over the hair or not. You're honoring who they are, and that's not putting your own framework and your own blind side thing.
Speaker 2:Like, if I mentor him, he'll get a scholarship, and I'll get paid or whatever. You throw all that aside, and you're like, okay. Who are you? And that is, like and it's, like, entering into Alaska. You look out on a map, and it's, on on the globe, it's kind of tiny, but if you flatten it out, you realize how big it is.
Speaker 2:And there's this depth and breadth to these precious ones. And and, like, I just when you think about the wiring and my wife and I struggled with infertility and, like, the fact that they're alive is a sheer miracle. Like, how their brain has come together, their own age and stage and circumstance, there's never been another human being like the kid that you're mentoring.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And for you to enter in and see what's good and holy and right without stumbling over the negative junk that's in them, which most of it's not their fault because they're a kid that grew up in something that is less than perfect, and then accepting them as they are. And this is the thing where I get really hissed off at Christianity and my own story because we we think we have such a horrible framework about how God loves us that we can't love anyone in return. We love God and love people as we love ourselves, but we walk in so much contempt and shame. If you really knew me, Steven, if our if my church really knew me, if my wife really knew me, they'd reject me because I'm horrible. So I bring that half hearted love to others.
Speaker 2:And so that idea of accepting them because what if they say that and they did something horrible, like, to where you have to call the cops? Like, what if they did something, like, so bad to them or, like, then they reproduced that and somebody else, they did that to somebody else. Actually, accepting and that's the radical nature of the way God loves us because while we were yet sinners, what, he died for us. When you're at your worst, he looked at you and said, I want you in my family. And if you here's the deal, bro.
Speaker 2:If you haven't if you if you you cannot impart what you have not received, and so unless you've received that type of acceptance, somewhere along the lines, you're gonna give some sort of half hearted love to them, and it's gonna frustrate you. But that can't be a hindrance to actually starting the process. Because in that moment in that moment back in the van down by the river sorry. I just ruined that holy moment. In that moment, the fact that you stayed with it, you're being conformed and shaped, and so was he.
Speaker 2:And so that's that idea of, like, being there in those moments. So when you ask the questions, tell me about tell me about your dad. Like, some of us just need coaching and asking questions, like, just going, hey, tell me your story. What's your favorite part about the day? What was the hardest part about the day?
Speaker 2:What are you looking forward to this weekend? Tell me more about that. That's a great question. Tell me more about that. Hey.
Speaker 2:You called me a racist. Tell me more about that. Another one. Is there anything else you want me to know about that? And if you can start to know the need behind the deed, you can meet the need whether they like it or not on one sense.
Speaker 2:And I don't mean, like, a toddler, like, choking on another kid on the playground like my sister did so many years ago going, play with me. Play with me. And, like, hey, man. Thanks for telling me that. You know, I don't understand all I just want you to know I accept you.
Speaker 2:The part that you gave me, I accept you. And when you're ready, and that's the boundary part because it's sacred territory. You can't shake them into healing and wholeness. When you're ready, I'd love to talk to you. But if not, that's fine too.
Speaker 1:That's really good, John. I think as mentors, that that boundary is is not handled well because we kind of operate in this place of my job is to fish things out of you and to pull it out. Repent.
Speaker 2:Your job is to be with them. Yeah. But I'm tracking with you. Because I do the same freaking thing in my work. So keep going.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, we're we're not supposed to pull it out. We're supposed to allow you to feel safe enough to share it, and that you would trust to let it out rather than me just kinda tug it out.
Speaker 2:I'll give you 2 frameworks. Again, that's my I hate the word seasons. I'm just in the season, Steven. Shut up with the season. So I've changed it to chapter.
Speaker 2:So in about 6 to 8 months 6 to 8 months, I'm gonna hate the word framework, but I wanna give you 2 frameworks for that. My wife and I talk about this a lot just for our family. I wanna set her up for success. So what you wanna do is set them up for success relationally. So you're providing you're doing your part to provide a safe environment where you've kinda dealt with your crap.
Speaker 2:You're not bringing the stress of your boss, but you're setting them up for success. You're creating an environment to where you can fish for that. So because remember, Jesus was a fisher of men. He was after their soul, like, the purest, best part that gets convoluted with the shadows so much, and we don't know our head from a hole in the ground, but he's after their soul. So I the thing I would frame it out with just to get a difference, a, set it up for success, and then, b, what I would say is the kingdom Jesus' kingdom operates by request.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And that request puts a measure of vulnerability because you can be rejected in it as the mentor. But if you think about the kingdom operates with request because think about it. For those of you who are married, for those of you who have been a mentor, for those of you who had kids, I demand that you do this. Woman, put your head covering on and listen to me.
Speaker 2:Let me tell you who's gonna be sleeping on the couch. Me. Mhmm. But when you leave your world and enter into theirs and make a request of them, it gives them the opportunity to say yes or no. So you set them up for success spiritually, emotionally, relationally.
Speaker 2:You're seeing the need behind the deed, and then you come in and say, hey. I'd love to hear more about your dad. You wanna tell me more about him? No. Okay.
Speaker 2:God honors our yeses and our noes. See that I've set before you today life or death, blessings, or curses. Choose life. He gives you the opportunity to do it. And so if we don't do that same thing to others, you just you you're not setting them up for success.
Speaker 2:But if you continue even on those little things like, hey, bro. What was it? What was a good part and a bad part? What's a high and a low? We do that all the day at the dinner table all the time.
Speaker 2:What's a high and low and one thing you want us to know? And our 7 year old rambles and rambles, but we're seeing that need behind the need for attention and trying to pay attention to it.
Speaker 1:So High and a low in something you want me to know. Mhmm. That is so good. I I mean, mentors will ask me all the time related to not being able to get information out of their mentees. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And say, like, what questions can I ask? Is there a secret sauce to getting them to share the deep and painful things that they're experiencing? And really, there isn't. The secret sauce isn't the questions. It's the relationship.
Speaker 2:It's The presence.
Speaker 1:It's the trust. It's the presence. And and rather than thinking, well, how could I ask this differently? Like, maybe what you need to do is build trust.
Speaker 2:And You have one job. It's to be. And so I would say that that's so extreme and such an 8 on the Enneagram. God. Humility suits me.
Speaker 2:I I think the safety, those kind of hierarchy of needs, like, safety and security is first that glad to be with you. You literally walk in smiling. I mean, when I was at in the real world, in the business world where people didn't act fake, but just actually were either rotten or glorious and all of their incandescent shame and beauty and everything else. I would literally walk into the place because who wants to go to work 5 days a week and sit in a cubicle? I mean, if you do that, I'm sorry, but, ugh, and some of you probably do, so I repent.
Speaker 2:But, like, I would literally force my eyebrows up and go in and say, hey. How you doing? But guess what? In the office, I was the chaplain because I entered into the world and said, hey. How you doing?
Speaker 2:And I faked it, and their brain hijacked my brain and my brain hijacked their brain, and they felt safe and secure. And they're, like, someone gives a damn about me. I'm freaking alone. And so if you come in smiling with the idea of my job as presence and yeah. Hey, dude.
Speaker 2:Best part of the day. Go. And then you share. Best part of the day is this. Worst part of the day.
Speaker 2:Go. Or hard part. One thing I'm gonna know, I crushed it in TikTok. I don't even know what that is. But you've created an environment for them to start that, and then you're gonna have a bunch of awkward pauses because you're a white dude in some instances, and they don't give a rip about you.
Speaker 2:Come on. Leave your world. It's not even about unpacking it. You're not a counselor. Probably not that much training in it.
Speaker 2:You're not Jesus. Like, that's the thing, bro. If we go back real quick. Okay. In the garden in the garden, in a perfect environment, like, for the introverts that are in their COVID glory right now, even my introverts, bro, that are in isolation are dying, by the way, as I've talked to them.
Speaker 2:In all of the glory of the garden, like, just imagine God's giving you a perfect environment, my home in Colorado that somehow looks down to the beach of California with huge Land Cruisers and huge TVs and guns and the finest chewing tobacco that is more like fiber than it is bad for you and and meats and elk to ride and a velociraptor to fly. This perfect environment, and I'm the boss, and I've got perfect relationship with God. And then all of a sudden, he says, oh, by the way, to take this deal, you have to be alone. Most of us would say yes, except for the fact that God says it's not good to be alone. So our job is not to heal them, not to counsel them, not to save them.
Speaker 2:That's none of our job. Our job is to remove aloneness. So when those sacred moments come out, they're not alone because it is not good to be alone. Because for the majority of them have experienced hurt, sadness, anger, fear, guilt, shame alone.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. And that's
Speaker 2:where they lose sight of who they are, and that's where we come in and say, man, I'm sorry. Oh, bro. And this is who I this is what I see in you. This is what I see in you. And that just takes time.
Speaker 2:Takes so much time.
Speaker 1:So So good. Do you have any recommendations for mentors who are wanting to talk about emotions with their mentees? And, I feel like kids kids are in a position where they're learning what emotions are. I feel like adults are learning what emotions are. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:We're probably unaware of them.
Speaker 2:I would guess half of you are emotionally underdeveloped. That's the pot calling the kettle black.
Speaker 1:Well, a part of that is being able to acknowledge what we're feeling. And I I just wonder if you have any any thoughts where mentors should start if they're wanting to to talk about emotions with their mentees.
Speaker 2:I would say this, Personally, you have to learn the difference between a thought and a feeling. So in the show notes, I would say, man, check out the feeling charts and learn to distinguish in your own brain between a thought and emotion. Because oftentimes, I'm like, hey, Murray. How'd you how'd you feel when that happened? Where you're like, well, I went to the place where I was like, I know I have implicit bias, and so then I thought thought thought thought thought thought thought, and they just share their thoughts, and that's not a feeling.
Speaker 2:A feeling is a one word statement that basically expresses how that experience, how that thought makes you feel. So I I would say, first off, you've gotta get it right
Speaker 1:in your own Which
Speaker 2:is what
Speaker 1:I did to you Yeah.
Speaker 2:When you asked me. Yeah. Which you've done a lot of times. That's okay. Because, again, it's like we language, like, we language, we have to really unpack what we mean when we say thought and feeling.
Speaker 2:And you've kinda gotta get squared away in your own brain and even recognize the purpose of those emotions. So you cannot impart what you have not received, and so I would say receive this exhortation to learn that it was between a thought and a feeling. The second thing is if you're really wanting to do it, then I would have a couple things accessible. One is like a silly feelings chart because, bro, so profound. Jesus said He only sees what the Father doing, and so He would like respond to Him.
Speaker 2:And so we start to learn how to express emotions by who we interact with.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And so part of what we do in that moment outside of just whipping out a feelings chart with the silly faces and say, which one of these describes you? Which is great, by the way, But part of that is us, understanding that they're responding and they're this is what you do when you're angry. This is what you do when you're shameful. This is what you do when you're lonely. But part of that, and this is very Karen Purvis, is by saying, hey, Steven.
Speaker 2:I'm seeing your behavior as this. That makes me think you're feeling this. Is that right? Or I can see that you're quiet. Are you feeling shy today?
Speaker 2:I can see that you're pouting and your lips are pursed and your your your brow is curled. Are you feeling sad? Are you feeling angry? I can see some tears in your eyes. Are are you feeling sad?
Speaker 2:And then they say yes or no, and you're like, I understand that you're sad. And so part of it is like you you have to actually give them something to work with. And that's that kind of idea of join, follow the lead where you are seeing the deed. I see that you're calling me a racist. Are you am I a racist?
Speaker 2:No. It's it's more, are you feeling sad? Are you feeling anger? I see that you're feeling and you're validating. You're giving it a voice.
Speaker 1:Validating.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you can so they can kind of have some context to work with. And so I would say, literally, that coupled with having a feelings chart so they can kind of articulate it. And the final thing I'll do, and this this came from both my own therapy and what I've learned from others is art therapy. And sometimes, like, our brain, it's like a a poem or a song.
Speaker 2:It's something that's too deep for words, and so it doesn't quite make sense, but it's articulating a thought or an idea or a philosophy. And so, like, what do you even do with my son? My son my older son is, like, hey. Draw what happened and then talk about it. So they may not be able to, like, internalize it as they're looking at it, but, like, just in with your instance.
Speaker 2:Hey, man. You know, last week when you did that, I I wonder if you could draw what happened in the van. What happened? And then they talk about it, and then all of a sudden, boom, some of those key emotions come out, and then you can enter into their world and not save them or give them facts, reason, and logic, but rather respond, yeah, Brandon. I could see that you were mad, or, yeah, I can see that you were fearful, or, yeah, I can see that that hurt.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry. You know, whatever else that kind of comes out of that, but, that might be a bit over the head. But, I mean, I I I did a few things of art therapy, and then I started doing it with my family and with others with no experience. And so if you want a framework, I would encourage it. So that's just kinda how you can start
Speaker 1:it. That's awesome, John. That was super practical. I do wanna ask 2 questions, and then we'll eat tacos. Praise the Lord.
Speaker 1:You mentioned thoughts versus feelings. Mhmm. Why is that important Mhmm. To differentiate those? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Okay. There's this wonderful book I encourage you all to get. It's called Billy Bixby and the Dragon or something like that. Long story short, he wakes up. At the end of his bed, there's a dragon that morning.
Speaker 2:Gets dressed, goes downstairs, tells his mom there's a dragon. And she says, there's no such thing as dragons. And the dragon begins to grow throughout the day. He's eating his pancakes. He tries to bring up his mom again.
Speaker 2:She said, there's no such thing as dragons. By lunchtime, the dragon is big as the house. The mom and Billy have had to go over and navigate the dragon in the house in order to get around it and do what they do, which is schoolwork, housework, etcetera. Bread truck comes by. Dragon is now hungry again, picks up the house, goes running down the street, and chases him, eats the bread truck, not the person, though.
Speaker 2:It's a rated g book, which would be just off awesome. Sorry. Callie. So, anyway, daddy comes home and is like, where did my house go? The mailman points, dragon house running down the street.
Speaker 2:The the the the the dragon is now satiated on the bread. Daddy walks up the neck to the 2nd floor where mommy and Billy are, and they say, daddy goes, what happened? And Billy goes, it's the dragon. And before he can finish it, mom Mommy goes, there's no such thing as dragons. And Billy finally loses it and goes, there is a dragon.
Speaker 2:And then all of a sudden, she goes, oh, and the dragon shrinks all the way back down to cat size. And she says, well, why did it get so big? And Billy goes, I think it just wanted to be acknowledged. And she says, well, I can handle a dragon this size, cat size that's sweet and, you know, rated g. So all I have to say, the reason why it's important to articulate what you think and feel is because if you don't, it becomes this dragon that you can't handle.
Speaker 2:It becomes so big that it consumes the entire house, which if you could really put some thought into it and you could really feel the purpose of the feeling and then act on it in a healthy way, it becomes something that you can manage. And when you don't acknowledge it, when you're not able to think through what you feel and then articulate what you feel in a way that others get it, it becomes this massive emotional giant that you can't acknowledge, you can't talk about. And, oh, by the way, you're as healthy as the secrets you keep. So in your family, if you can't look at and articulate, hey hey, Steven, I'm pissed because you did this and I think you're a racist and I'm scared and I'm hurt, then what happens is you're left with this chasm that's between you and him that is so big that you can't talk about it and therefore, you're as healthy as the things the secrets that you keep. And so the reason why it's important because my this is like a plug for my website.
Speaker 2:I want you to live. I want that kid to live. And in order to face the dragon, you've gotta be able to name it and not claim it, but name it and go, I think I'm feeling rage. I think I'm feeling fear. I think I'm feeling contempt and shame.
Speaker 2:I feel shame. And what I think that is is it's a little bit is that I'm experiencing you as this. I I think that my own insecurities are coming up because of this. I think my own wrong thinking where I actually love feeling these feelings more than I love life, so I'm gonna feel shame and feel toxic about it, and then all of a sudden I'm gonna act a fool in 3 to 6 weeks because I've been drinking in the toxicity of shame and anger because I like it because my identity shaped in there. And all of a sudden, all of that junk is coming roaring out in one little action with this kiddo.
Speaker 2:Now that may be extreme, but the reason why you wanna do it is because you were made to live, and if you can't articulate it, there's nothing to you. You're a wisp or a vapor or, like, this fantaz what is it? This this dragon that rages that's not known, and nobody knows you. There's no weight to you. There's no substance.
Speaker 2:There's just fluff and pomp and circumstance, and nobody wants to be around you. And you're not getting what you actually need because you're acting a fool, or you've created some castle like Elsa and Frozen 2 that no one can enter in because no one wants to be with you because you can't articulate anything that you really, really want or feel or need, and, therefore, you can't actually hear what other people want or need because you're locked in your castle or you're you're the dragon that's consuming its enemies or its bread truck in this case. So that's why you should work at it.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:Sorry. It's good. I think we jumped into the next podcast on that one.
Speaker 1:But well, if that's the next one, then we can we can leave it for the next one. But Your second question? Second question was the facts, reason, and logic. I don't I don't think he told me why that doesn't work. Because that it's very natural for me to be, like, well, this is how it is.
Speaker 1:Like, don't you see? And what you're saying is that mentors have to recognize when you're mentoring a child using facts, reason, and logic doesn't work. But even in more of all of our relationships, they don't it doesn't work. No. We have to go to a deeper level of how we feel.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:and maybe you did Not really. So go back to the brain real quick. Your relational side fires more quickly than your factories and logic side. So that's why I can walk into my office and fake smile at you, and you'd be like, oh, John's glad to be with me, which is the definition my definition from Jim Wilder, if you look him up, of joy. Glad to be with you.
Speaker 2:And so, like, I think back to one of my foster daughters walking into the home. Facts. Affluent neighborhood. I'm the top one person in the world. There's no doubt about it.
Speaker 2:Door lock. Healthy couple. You know, good door security. She's not thinking any of that at all. No fact is gonna turn to her brain.
Speaker 2:Hey. I'm a state certified foster care worker. You are safe with me. Bullcrap. And you think that changes because you get older and more mature?
Speaker 2:Maybe. But your brain, again, is wired to be relationally safe and joyfully glad to be with first. And in the meantime, your subconscious with all your files that are jacked up and broken are gonna file in conjunction with the fact that you don't feel safe. So if you come at me and give me facts, reason, and logic, I'm not gonna register it at all at all. However, if you get into a place through conflict where you're actually creating an environment that's safe first, emotionally connecting first, then you can come in and be like, hey.
Speaker 2:Let's address that wrong thinking. And so I just wanna go back to your example of the in the bus. Part of it is, like, you had to do what you had to do to keep the kids safe to get them to the mentor program, and then you dealt with it. Because that's, like, I think about I don't know, like, an EMT or something like that going into someone's having a heart attack. They have to deal with the reality of the facts, reasons, logic first, and screw your feelings because we gotta save your life.
Speaker 2:So there's part of that just kind of baseline safety Maslow's hierarchy of needs. But then when it comes to the connecting and attaching and dealing with those things, it's gotta be on the relational fact. It has to be on the relational side of it. So, hey, Menti. I'm not racist because I voted for Obama and because I have a Black Lives Matter sticker, or at least I'd be willing to if I wasn't so terrified of what my parents would do.
Speaker 1:And I have one black friend.
Speaker 2:And I have one black friend on social media. And I and I like Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah. I I tweeted out one of his things. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I know. I anyway, I anyway, none of those things are gonna change how he feels. None of it's gonna work until you enter in and attach his brain and your brain coming together, forming something that's deeper than space and time. So in that moment of conflict, you see the need behind the deed and you attach to him in such a way by presence, by having a little bit of emotional intelligence to say, okay. It's approval.
Speaker 2:Bro, no matter what, you're a leader. I might be a racist. I don't know. But you're a leader, and I'm here. Those little micro attachments will form deeper attachments and then then that that idea of, like, you get rid of the facts, reasons, and logic.
Speaker 2:You see the need behind the deed, and the brain can heal itself. This is a bloody miracle. You can actually overcome the traumatic experiences, the unmet emotional needs, your your your rearing, all of those things, but it's done in the context of the framework. It's not good to be alone.
Speaker 1:Mhmm. Now there
Speaker 2:there's some other things that go into it, like, you can make sense of the past, but when you're in the like, once you've made sense of the past, once we when once we interact relationally on it, you have that moment, or you dump out your cup a little bit, and I'm actually sad, and you actually mourn with me and meet me meet me there as I am and not as I should be, your brain can heal itself, which is freaking a miracle. And this is what neurologists are proving, which a is what the Bible says, but we just don't think about it that way. And so that's when you when you get rid of the facts reasons of logic and you get rid of, like, well, son, God's sovereignty, and he made you black and me white and I'm not a racist and that that that none of that helps. None of that. It's the relational connection hardwired for relationship that is going to heal along with a couple other things that happened along the way, but that's more for your counselor, Steven, than for for me right now.
Speaker 2:So
Speaker 1:It's really good, John.
Speaker 2:This is getting along. Are we okay?
Speaker 1:We're done.
Speaker 2:I can talk a lot.
Speaker 1:Well, I I love I love what you just said, and I and I think the emotional cup gets at the place of when our mentees are opening up
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Or when they're hostile, when they're angry, when they're flaring up. When they're opening up or when they're flaring up, it's a bid. It's an opportunity Yes. For those micro attachments.
Speaker 2:So good.
Speaker 1:And rather than viewing mentoring as, like, I'm just waiting for my mentee to score the the winning touchdown at the football game and for us to have this high five, me pick him up and celebrate him.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:It's in the moment he's angry with you, you taking the time to acknowledge how he feels to affirm him and to accept him and to view that there's a celebration. Mhmm. There's an opportunity for attachment in all of those moments. I think that's huge.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And there's a moment just in the silence to sit and to be. Because what you're doing in either that or the high moments or the low moments is their brain is literally being rewired as you interact with them in a healthy way so that they don't keep on going to the trauma, to the broken identity, to the shame, to their default deterministic behavior because you're those little moments of interruption, like you said, those little micro connections, those micro attachments are slowly and hopefully by God's good grace, reshaping their brain, which is reshaping their identity, which is reshaping their freaking destiny, which is why what you guys are doing freaking matters. Yeah. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:And you're gonna blow it, by the way, all of the time, so just be encouraged. But those are the moments, man. You're, like, literally intervening. Oh, it's brilliant. But you're not the hero of the story.
Speaker 2:Just one more thing. But you get to play a part of it. Yeah. Because last time I checked, Jesus wasn't there in the flesh, but you were in your hands and feet. So side note, I have to balance all my stuff out.
Speaker 2:It's so good.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to today's episode. I hope you took away something practical. You were encouraged, or maybe even you were challenged. We want all of those things to happen. And so as you listen to the rest of our podcast, we want to acknowledge the fact that our title of our podcast is called you can mentor.
Speaker 1:We believe in you. And so even if we share difficult things and we acknowledge the sobriety that we are going to fail again and again and again, and our expectations will go unmet in our mentoring relationships. The fact is still the same. You can mentor. So thank you for listening to today's episode.
Speaker 1:We're going to jump back into the relational needs series, episode 3. We're gonna talk about obstacles to relationships. So come back next week for that episode. Check out our show notes for all the stuff that John shared about thoughts, feelings, and I'm really excited about the next episode. So, John, thanks for sticking
Speaker 2:with us. Peace
Speaker 1:out.