Marc Beckman: Erez Zborowski, you know, I am so thrilled to have you on Some Future Day.
Welcome to Some Future Day.
Erez Zborowski: Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
Marc Beckman: Erez, I'm really excited about having you, particularly because you, uh, exist in a very unique, um, in some ways covert, um, and intelligent. Corridor within society and technology. Can you take a minute to introduce yourself to Some Future Days, viewers, and explain who you are and what your expertise is, please?
Erez Zborowski: Of course, uh, so just to reiterate, my name is Erez Zborowski, by the way, I was impressed by the one take shots of my last name. It was great. So, uh, yeah, I, I actually started, uh, my career in journalism. I went to the Park School of Journalism at Ithaca College and I, you know, I, I found that Like, my peers were sort of parsed between sports journalists and everyone who basically, uh, didn't want to just be stuck in poli sci.
And so, I was one of those sort of pseudo poli sci kids. Um, the first professor I ever had in journalism, uh, the first day that we came into Intro to Journalism 101, Um, he sat us down and he was pretty morose, silent. And after about 10 minutes of that, he started to explain to us who James Foley was the year that I had come to college was, uh, that summer, James Foley had been executed by ISIS.
And what he said to us was, you know, if, if you can't handle the risk of seeking the truth, then you should find another major and no one will fault you for it, and if you can't sit here and watch this video, nobody will blame you. you can leave the room. And, um, honestly, it was very painful to watch James Foley's execution, but that professor's conviction is what gave me my entire career.
So, you know, journalism didn't work out for me because it's hard to take photos of something and And not, um, take action. So, after years of studying journalism and having a couple different forays into it, I found myself in Israel, um, working and, uh, sort of, uh, as like a fixer for other journalists. And, uh, I'm, you've traveled to Israel often.
You know, even, uh, without war, there's, like, petty crime and travel can be a little bit difficult, uh. Everybody knows the best highwayman in the Middle East is a Israeli cab driver, right? So, in the most simple way, um, I sort of transitioned by just helping other journalists get around. Naturally, security and risk sort of became a major topic and subject of my daily work.
So, after about three years, Of doing that in Israel, I continued my work in Africa and other parts of the Middle East. And my focus became then really just risk as it pertained to security and intelligence.
Marc Beckman: Erez, just for the audience, um, you use the word fixer and, uh, can you just quickly tell everyone what exactly a fixer does?
Erez Zborowski: Um, so in, in this sense, uh, a fixer helps journalists find their way around a country, make contacts, develop rapport with sources, find stories, et cetera.
Marc Beckman: So it gets, uh, pretty deep into these communities, right? Including into communities of, uh, you know, terrorist communities, right?
Erez Zborowski: Absolutely. I mean, well, any community where journalists are going to, you know, seek coverage or, you know, any magazine with a desk in a certain region, it's not exclusively sort of, uh, places with bad actors, but we all know bad actors are wherever we are, you know? People are people, so you're always mixed in with whomever, wherever you are.
But yeah, of course, in some communities where there were terrorist organizations.
Marc Beckman: Got it. Sounds lovely. Um. Thank you. Very brave of you. I don't know if I would be able to handle the role of a fixer myself, but, you know, let's talk about the evolution of terrorism now, but specifically looking at their messaging. Something that I find fascinating is this concept of Terrorist marketing, soft power, um, what they're doing to the traditional definition of soft power and how they're pushing, you know, their, their messaging out, if you're going to find a turning point, specifically as it relates to a terrorist organization, leveraging content, media, and messaging to the world, where would you start?
Where would you begin with this concept of soft power and terrorism?
Erez Zborowski: Without hesitation, 2013 to 2015, Islamic State, ISIS, ISIL, ISIS K. I mean, that entire legacy is, I mean, some of the most gruesome. Imaging I've ever seen in my life. I mean, we all can remember the videos that ISIS released and that was a certain version of soft power, you know, uh, they, they, they were able to take modern radical Islamic terror and turn it into something.
That could accumulate likes and views on the internet. And as far as 11 years ago, you can start to see people around the world say. You know, we don't really mind seeing their side of the story, even if their side of the story is burning journalists live, uh, in cages. So, so that, so seeing the sympathy for ISIS and the understanding of their actions, despite the fact that they were incredibly public about them, that they had leaked them on the internet themselves, edited them to music and, um, I mean, it, it terrible.
And that people still were, were so magnetized by them. That's, that's when I understood that this is the new, this is the new, uh, way of being for them.
Marc Beckman: So, so there was a fundamental shift before that moment in time, we had a culture and a broader society where terrorists were persona non grata. They were terrible. Everybody hated them. But then someone within the ISIS realm realized that they could create effectively a social media campaign to win hearts.
And minds on a global scale. Do I understand this correctly? Is it that basic?
Erez Zborowski: well, well, it's, I would say it's, it's even worse than that. It's that they, Before ISIS, even the fringe of society hated terrorists. After ISIS, you see aspects of the fringe of society joining ISIS and joining radical terror groups and, you know, young men from Ohio and, and Mississippi and Florida and, you know, Wales and, Marseilles, et cetera, you know, who have no association to these groups or to the faith or to these communities, uh, traveling and smuggling themselves, uh, into the ranks of ISIS.
So, so that's, that's how, yeah.
Marc Beckman: So what shifted internally then at ISIS? Did they hire a team like an internal marketing team? Is there a vertical that they stood up that was specifically allocated towards? Coming up with a new narrative, creating original content. They have sound designers, as I see, like they literally like layer in like sound and specific films.
So what happened, how, how has it built, um, you know, how do these terrorist organizations have, um, uh, teams in place who focus specifically on the creation of original content for social media?
Erez Zborowski: Right. So even though ISIS did not begin in this time, they began earlier, they're still considered, you know, one of the newer of the major, uh, Islamic terror groups. And so they, they weren't sort of held back by this sort of, uh, organizational dogma that other groups have, right? So, so they could take new approaches and new strategies.
They have younger membership. And, um, and also, you know, you have to sort of treat these organizations like people when you profile them. ISIS is sort of like the new kid with the, with the new haircut and, um, you know, rocking a jean jacket. Everyone looked at ISIS like, um, they were doing revolutionary things.
Um, I, I think that they've actually inspired many other groups. Um, but, but, But they also had a massive amount of cash. They were, I'll give you just, just two examples here of how they were getting that. Just, just, just loose cash. Um, one was the Captagon that was being synthesized in Syria. You know, ISIS took control of that market for, for a large period of time.
And Captagon is, you know, for those who don't know, Captagon is um, it's a synthetic, um, amphetamine. Essentially, that was propping up Assad Syria, um, to the tune of like more than 70 percent of their economy was, was propped up by the illicit trade of this drug that essentially they controlled the world market of.
And ISIS. Controlled basically the distribution of this in the Middle East that and they took over the oil fields in Iraq. You can imagine is substantial money So with that much loose cash They had more than enough You know money to do something like this and that put them that put them sort of in a different league then 80 percent you know, of these other groups, but you see now that these groups are sort of utilizing all of them.
Tik TOK and in some ways, Instagram and Facebook, et cetera,
Marc Beckman: Which social media platform, in your opinion, has been the most effective in, um, getting the terrorist messaging out there?
Erez Zborowski: uh, Twitter or X. That, that, and, uh, you know, Telegram, WhatsApp,
Marc Beckman: How is it, how so? Why is it more effective on, on X, for example, than on Facebook?
Erez Zborowski: or just to give you an example. It, it, it's like, it's, it's just sort of, um, coincidences of, of culture and learned tradition. Like in Afghanistan, a very popular way to share because, um, because most music is banned in Afghanistan, only sort of religious hymns are, are permitted and those are shared. On X, from one person to another person.
And so, even in like daily life, Twitter, X, Instagram, WhatsApp, Telegram, are sort of mixed into people's lives in an inseparable way. It's beyond just terror, it's, it's their friendships, it's how they're gonna get food, it's, it's everything. It's the music in the car.
Marc Beckman: But it's not so decentralized, right? Erez, like, what fascinates me, what I've read is that there are actually Organizations that are focused specifically on building these narratives, building the content right within the terrorist organization. They have like a full team of people who are focused on this is, is that commonplace now to have an allocated marketing team effectively?
Erez Zborowski: Yeah, well, absolutely. These are organizations that have, you know, financial teams and wings. They have departments and clerical workers. They absolutely have a PR and marketing department.
Marc Beckman: So you mentioned Telegram. Um, so what comes to mind for me is the encrypted piece of it, right? Telegram is encrypted.
Erez Zborowski: Sure. Yes.
Marc Beckman: So what, what's the, um, allure or, or what's the benefit to these terrorist organizations using encrypted messaging, um, on Telegram or other app, similar app signal or, or.
Erez Zborowski: Telegram keeps being, uh, actually broken into and, um, sort of compromised. So the actual benefit Is, is not the app itself, it's just the volume of people using it. I mean, and especially today, it's the volume of people with sympathetic thoughts to these people. And these individuals that, you know, we would be seeking or be interested in.
Um, that there's just an almost insurmountable wave of, um, of text they can hide behind. Of, of, of nearly identical rhetoric. So it's, you know, where do you, where do you begin? Although I will say, you know, there is a massive benefit here, you know, with things like AI and, and, and volume processing and, you know, things that, that humans would struggle to do.
Um, but that's a, you know, maybe a different conversation.
Marc Beckman: Well, it's interesting when you talk about artificial intelligence, because if the terrorist organizations are able to ramp up content to support their narrative, I would imagine that AI plays a significant role in recruitment across these social media platforms too.
Erez Zborowski: Um, well, you know, It's like this, Marc. If an organization, you know, is working on weapons of mass destruction, to the tune of and including and perhaps more than chemical weapons and etc, um, it would not surprise me that they would also look at, you know, maybe investing in, um, let's say untraceable energy for their AI and some sort of artificial intelligence tool.
But I can't say for sure. I'm not aware of any.
Marc Beckman: So when you talk about untraceable energy, what would be, how would you define untraceable energy? Mm hmm.
Erez Zborowski: Um, you know, I would say solar might help them. It's complicated because there's a way to find, uh, somebody harnessing energy in almost any way that you can harvest energy. So it's very tough to, um, it's, it's very, it's very tough to find somebody doing that. I would say nuclear energy is, is very hard to detect.
Uh, we, we, we use, uh, nuclear energy on some of our most powerful stealth submarines. aircraft carriers. Um, if terrorists were to harness nuclear energy, uh, for something like this, it would be catastrophic. But I, I haven't heard of anything like that. Of, of course they would love to get their hands on, uh, you know, pistol material, but I'm not sure they would be, um, so patient as to use it for that outcome rather than something more, uh, insidious and short term.
Marc Beckman: So we have like these overproduced videos that we're all way too familiar with. But I think another point of interest is the fact that. The younger generations are all in these gaming platforms now and the, um, you, you had shared with me previously that the terrorist organizations are now infiltrating these massive playing gaming platforms too.
How's that working?
Erez Zborowski: Well, you know, you, we have to acknowledge that as it's 2025, many of these terrorists have grown up on these gaming platforms, you know, long before they were recruited to anything. And so they have friends abroad and they communicate with people on discord and, you know, they used to do it on Skype and ventrilo and team speak and mumble and you kind of aggregate it.
Like, uh, a massive network of people after years of being on these platforms, some of them, you know, are doing it maybe, uh, deliberately that they never used or have seen these platforms before, uh, being told or trained to do so, but absolutely, I mean, you know, we, we don't spend enough time, let's say, monitoring, monitoring, monitoring, Communication and interactions and dynamics that happen in these virtual spaces.
Marc Beckman: So if my kid's in, in GTA, he's at risk
Erez Zborowski: Absolutely.
Marc Beckman: and that's a fact.
Erez Zborowski: I mean, I mean, risk is, risk is relative, but let's be, let's be precise. If, if your, if your son is playing, uh, GTA on an online server, let's say a 5M server, it's a type of hosting, um, then absolutely he has access to people in Oman, Saudi Arabia, Philippines, I mean, everywhere on Earth. Everywhere where, where you can access the internet and, um, can chat with anybody.
Marc Beckman: So what are these organizations? The, the, the. Companies that are creating and hosting these social media platforms, these gaming platforms and like, what are people like Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk doing to, if anything at all, to like thwart terrorist influence, terrorist content, uh, you know, this type of activity.
Are they actively involved? Are they helping push back on this?
Erez Zborowski: I don't think they get enough credit. Uh, you know, I'll be, I'll be honest with you. I think that people like Mark Zuckerberg and Elon Musk are tasked with stopping a tsunami with their two hands. It's, it's a completely impossible thing to purge, um, this content and these individuals off of these platforms.
The sad truth is there's just too many of them, and, and so it becomes rather, rather than Rather than sort of mitigating, rather than sort of, uh, getting rid of them, it becomes a matter of just mitigating the damage. And Meta and X both do a tremendous amount to, to sort of detect these things and to process and analyze them.
It, it, it's complicated though, Marc, because this is a lot of manpower we're talking about usually this, this stuff, uh, these moderator sort of duties get outsourced to third party companies in Serbia or Albania or something like this. So, you know, they're, they're doing a lot, but who can say it's enough?
And, and what would enough be? It's a complicated question.
Marc Beckman: So what would you recommend? I mean, do you think it's, it's kind of reached this tipping point where we can never go back and, and this influence is going to be, this positive influence is going to be sustainable
Erez Zborowski: I, I think, I think that we have to invest in, uh, AI relating to detection. I think that if we attempt to touch this volume of risk and the amount of bad actors adjacent to all of us on the internet, we could not do it in 500 years. But with the advent of AI, I think that this is something that we could See sort of cataloged in a major way within our lifetime and the way that you do it is, I mean, just going back to the basics, we need a cognitive map of all of these groups and their operations on the Internet.
I mean, we used to sort of have a much better bead on these groups than we do now. And I think that we need to go back to innovating in this space for sure.
Marc Beckman: for AI specifically.
Erez Zborowski: Absolutely. AI will save us from modern terror.
Marc Beckman: AI will save us from modern terror.
Erez Zborowski: Absolutely.
Marc Beckman: Wow. That's remarkable. Um, what about though, it goes beyond just social media platforms and beyond, you know, devices that we're holding in our hands, laptops. And I know that recently there's been traditional broadcast television commercials that these terrorist organizations are, are running.
Erez Zborowski: Of course, of course. I mean, look at, uh, look at Al Qaeda's model, um, for, for sort of their. mission planning and victory conditions for the next 20 years. Um, they're looking to sort of put the client cap on several different countries. And this does require, um, national news coverage and sort of full media pushes and Yeah, absolutely.
Marc Beckman: do you mean client cap?
Erez Zborowski: well, I, I believe that, um, once again, uh, borrowing from Sarah Adams, who I think is incredible and her work with D. B. Boone is, is excellent. Um, I think that Al Qaeda is sort of organizing, um, themselves. And their proxies like, uh, medieval client states that instead of taking over a country and ruling over one country like Afghanistan or Pakistan or Uzbekistan, that they would much rather be friends with.
Or, let's say, um, be, be the older brother of, be, be the, be the, uh, the primary of several different countries. This, this alignment, they clearly believe, makes them harder to destroy. And it makes sense, you know, you'd have to burn, you'd have to go through all of these countries to eliminate Al Qaeda. And it makes sort of dealing with, with them.
Incredibly difficult. And you can see, you can sort of see this happening in Syria because, um, HTS Hayat Tahrir Al Shams, the group that ended up sort of winning. That, uh, that Syria bull that we were all watching. Um, they are essentially a subsidiary, subsidiary of, uh, Al Qaeda. They were previously named Al Nusra, Jabhat Al Nusra.
Uh, they're, uh, they're a famous, uh, terror group. And, um, now we can see, um. Al Shara, their leader, and we were discussing this, uh, yesterday, that he's, you know, wearing something that looks like a tailored Tom Ford suit, um, sitting with American journalists and sort of, uh, being, being allowed to make his case, which is, which is incredible.
I mean,
Marc Beckman: so let's, let's, let's hover over this Al Shara, um, character for a second. It's really interesting because you talk about like image rebranding, bring, bring the audience into the psyche there for a minute. I mean, you got this terrorist and he's now controlling Syria effectively. And all of a sudden he goes through this dramatic alteration of his personal appearance.
Right. So why is he doing that?
Erez Zborowski: I, I think, I think primarily because he wants to live. And what I, what I mean by that, Marc, is that, um, what he looked like on his way up to the tower is something that would get the whole tower knocked down. He, he, he understood. A long time ago that he would have to appeal to the West. And he understands that because the West has been buried in this matter in Syria.
Um, as I'm sure, you know, the United States and, and our allies have seriously supported the rebels in Syria for many years. You know, they've been trained by the United States to some degree. The U S has been there boots on the ground to some degree. And so, who there would not understand in a full and complete way that they have to be digestible to American citizens.
They saw very clearly who wins in any given conflict in that region. It's he who is picked by the United States, and they understood they had to be picked.
Marc Beckman: But it's almost laughable, right? Like you and I look at these images and see the transformation and we see right through it. Why are so many people fooled by this? I mean, look at just over the past week or so, the amount of bloodshed and killing, just heinous acts of violence that are occurring in Syria under al Shaara.
But yet he's, he's coming out with his, you know, black Tom Ford looking suit and he's. Got his beard groomed nicely and everything. Why, why do the people fall for that? Why do they want to fall for that?
Erez Zborowski: Nobody wants to believe in evil, Marc. I mean, nobody wants to believe That he really would give those orders that he would lie, look into, look into the camera and just lie. Nobody could ever sort of reconcile that because if he could do that, what kind of world do we live in? And so I, I think that's the real reason because there's no sense, there's no sense in, in seeing any light in this, uh, character.
Marc Beckman: So it's denial.
Erez Zborowski: Absolutely. And who's to say that, uh, this is who the U S has chosen. The war is not over yet. I mean, that's the
Marc Beckman: he, Erez?
Erez Zborowski: terrible. And, and, um, as you can see, he's not stupid either.
Marc Beckman: No, he's also leveraging H HTS is also leveraging new media, uh, social media, creating original content to get their messaging out. How, how closely in your, um, expert opinion. Is Alshara in creating that content and getting that messaging out? Does he have an arm, a division that's running it, or is he overseeing everything and approving everything and setting the narrative?
Is he a great communicator in this evil level?
Erez Zborowski: He's, he's absolutely already prepared. They're, they've already made content. They're making content and they're, they're playing the game that we're talking about. You know, the, the concern, um, that many people have in the States is. Are, are they playing this game on the same side of the table as Al Qaeda?
And it's a concern that I have, Marc, to be honest with you.
Marc Beckman: Explain that, just elaborate on that.
Erez Zborowski: Well, just to go back to what we were saying, that, that Al Qaeda has an interest in sort of absorbing these client state friends. Here Al Shara is now. The leader of Syria. The leader of the historical nation of Syria. And he is a former Al Qaeda commander. He is a direct associate of, uh, of Al Qaeda, of the Haqqani network.
There's, there's nothing more to it of actually both halves of Al Qaeda. So, so I mean, that would be to say that he must have sympathies for both Haqqani. and Hamza bin Laden and therefore Osama bin Laden. And we have no business being in bed with anybody who has sympathies for those men or any sort of part in their, in their charade.
And the truth is, he was a member of al Nusra. We can't forget that. It's not that he was, you know, photographed with them or we know that he spoke with them. He was a member of al Qaeda. It's as simple as that. We have them talking about how they would like to control and own nations from afar, namelessly.
And here we have a former Al Qaeda operative now leading a country, leading a country directly adjacent to Al Qaeda's greatest enemy. You know that their threat initially in 2001 their their address against the United States called them the Zionist Anglo Saxon Empire So it just seems almost too coincidental that a former al qaeda operative would end up in control of a country Directly north of the state of Israel that his nickname would be al jolani Al jolani means the Golani The Golan, as you know, is the part of Israel that was taken from Syria that many Syrian hardliners still claim and demand back.
It's a, and in itself, it has become a political rallying cry in Syria and Lebanon against Israel. And here you have his nickname, al Jolani. Well, Marc, I'm only reading what this man is giving me, and what he's giving me is the black hand.
Marc Beckman: Okay. I want to read just to take this concept a little further. I want to read a section from a report that you shared, um, which, you know, to me, it was really eyeopening. Uh, so I'll read it exactly. It said, and then, and then I'd like you to react to it, please, Erez. So it says, others have argued that the presently limited operational capabilities of Al Qaeda's founders have inspired them to focus ideological outreach activities and efforts.
To influence public opinion in the United States and Europe, many observers believe that the group's primary goal remains to inspire, plan and carry out attacks against the United States and its allies around the world, with particular emphasis on targeting economic and energy infrastructure. And fomenting unrest in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Persian Gulf states, and countries neighboring Israel.
So we're hovering around the concept, but this, this section of this report takes it a little further. Do you want to, um, shine some light into that, please?
Erez Zborowski: Well, I, I think it's just a crucial point. Part of this all we, we have, uh, we have, uh, a real. Error, um, as a country, as a collective that we treat our enemies, uh, the radical terrorists of the world, um, is Islamic terror as sort of this, uh, belligerent, um, gibberish when in reality, um, it's very politically oriented and, and, and almost entirely politically motivated that, you know, instead of having some sort of prophetic goal that their goals are.
are things that actually lean and sort of lend to soft power dynamics and operations. And so here you have it, that they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. From embedding into society and sort of tilting the public. And, and if you ask me, this plays a large part in what we saw after October 7th in the United States, that you had such an organized effort in the streets funded and sort of shepherded the whole way through.
And I would say to you that what you just read explains it almost entirely.
Marc Beckman: So, you know, for me in New York City, it's eye catching to, if you go over near Columbia, you see replication of tent designs. It's obvious that those monies came from one source. I'm not sure. Obviously, I don't have firsthand knowledge as to what source. But, you know, obviously we see the campuses igniting still with anti Semitism as recently as last week at Columbia.
Barnard was like held down in a pro Hamas march. It's insane. Um, it's literally insane, but beyond the universities, what, what could you point to here in the United States, um, that exemplifies where these terrorist organizations are using soft power and, um, uh, coming to life within culture?
Erez Zborowski: I mean, even though you'd like to, you'd like to move away from, you know, New York City. I have to say to you that it is, it is very telling that, you know, less than 30 years after 9 11. What we have on September 11th is people picketing outside of the World Trade Center Memorial. You know, so, so I think you, you almost can't ignore New York because New York is, is, uh, a massive part of the story.
But I would say to you that, you know, the, the situation in, uh, Dearborn, Michigan, where such viral and hate is protected. By their community and in some ways protected politically is very concerning. I would say that everywhere in the United States, there are concerns for terror infiltrations. It's hard for me to pin down one place in particular.
Once again, there was somebody recently stopped, um, with firearms and explosive material. Um, Who is planning an attack in New York. Another that, uh, was planning an attack in New Jersey. I believe in the last year. So, you know, what more can I say? I'm aware that in Los Angeles, for instance, um, that, that there have been many concerns.
About the targeting of Jewish people or people considered to be a threat to the Palestinian movement.
Marc Beckman: There is, you referenced Sarah Adams earlier in the conversation, and I know I saw a clip from her where she said October 7th was just a dress rehearsal for a broader attack across multiple westernized cities throughout the world. Are you familiar with that, um, that comment? And also, what do you think about it?
Erez Zborowski: I agree with it. I absolutely agree with it. Uh, I, I was in Israel, um, actually, um, for the attack prior to October 7th in 2021. And there were several strange things about that attack that would indicate to me now. That's what we're watching is a, is an, an up ramp of dress rehearsals. of attempts and increased sophistications of these plants, really sort of just doing research and development for a much larger one.
Um, for instance, one thing that we saw in Israel that I had personally never seen before was that, you know, Arabs were coming into Israeli cities in an organized manner on private buses and vehicles and emptying out into the streets in specific places to create sort of, uh, chaos in the streets, fistfights.
It was, it was something much more innocuous than October 7th, but it's something that they had never done before that they had sort of practiced moving around the country, you know, and another thing was that the smuggling. From 2021 up until October 7th had erupted, absolutely erupted, that somebody was really making a concerted effort and they were finding new and innovative ways to smuggle weapons into, uh, Judea and Samaria as well as Gaza and Lebanon even.
So, um. So just, so even from 2021, I would say there was an indication that there is a continued research and development of a greater plan. And um, I would say that in, in understanding the connection between Hamas and Al Qaeda and these other groups that, um, and, and, and also their, their instrumental part in the planning of October 7th, that she is correct.
Marc Beckman: So where does, where does Russia come in? Um, because it seems to me that, you know, People are focused on Russia, Ukraine, but Russia must have some sort of a role in, um, you know, these different entities that we're talking about right now. I mean, certainly they were front and center with regards to Syria, but with your, um, expert base and your knowledge, knowledge base, where does Russia come into, uh, play with regards to these terrorist organizations?
Erez Zborowski: They, they speak with them, they have back channels with every single one of them, almost every single one of them, of course, you have to remember, um, Russia has had its own issues with radical terror in the past, um, and, and their own struggle, which, um, has also been a source of connection with the United States in some ways, um, or, uh, re recently even, by the way, ISIS being one of them, where Russia and the United States effectively split Syria in half and said to each other, you handle them here, we'll handle them here.
And just let us know, and there was communication. But you have to also remember that Russia doesn't see anything in a black and white sort of way. They enjoy their perspective of viewing things in the gray. And they have a strong relationship with the Taliban right now, for instance. So it's perplexing.
You know, they had a strong diplomatic relationship with Israel. Until they began to host leadership of Hamas in our country. So, you know, it, it, it's, they, they, they have a stomach to tolerate relations with radical terror organizations. And if it can benefit their interest and position against the United States, they will absolutely entertain ideas to work with them.
Marc Beckman: But Erez, we do too, right? Like you mentioned Russia and Taliban, Afghanistan. I read, uh, just I think a week or two ago that Elon Musk uncovered some donations right from America. Maybe it was through USAID or another organization, uh, to the Taliban during the last administration. Did, are you familiar with that?
Erez Zborowski: Um, I'm not familiar with that specifically, but I, I have heard, you know, numbers f. You know, floated around to the tune of 50 to 80 million a week going to the Taliban being redressed as UN aid and being put on a plane and off a plane, back on a plane and ending up in Taliban hands. But, um, but I'm not aware of what Elon Musk specifically found.
What I will say is this, Marc. Um, while I think that that is deplorable, if true, it's very different than having, um, a diplomat of the Taliban or one of its key leaders drinking a coffee in the White House as they did in the Kremlin.
Marc Beckman: Okay, but let's go back and forth a little bit just to play devil's advocate. I mean, Russia is looking at how the United States participates, and it's been very public, um, that the last administration was providing Hamas with financial support.
Erez Zborowski: Sure. Um,
where that, where that is true, I mean, you, I'm sure heard about, um, Hamas, uh, receiving 50 million, uh, for, for a condom fund. Or some sort of, uh, for some sort of, uh, yeah, something ridiculous like this. But in reality, they actually use them for a type of firebomb. But yeah, no, I, I'm aware that the United States, um, has also, um, given money that has ended up in Hamas hands, but the United States does not give that money in the hopes that Hamas will then go and disrupt Russia or, or her Russian civilians.
Or dismantle Russian business in the area, or in some way damage the reputation or standing of Russia in the same way that Russia does when they give money to Hamas, hoping that that's what happens to the United States and her allies, and that's just the truth. I mean, yeah, there's, there's, there's no way around it.
And, uh, why do we give them money? It's a complicated, complicated answer. And I feel that it also depends on who you're asking. If you ask me, I think we're, we're giving money in many different directions. Money for us is a tool that we use in a very different way than Russia. Russia is, uh, taking those donations and turning them into bullets against us.
without question. Their foreign, their foreign policy and their diplomacy is far more hostile than ours is without, without a doubt.
Marc Beckman: So all of a sudden though, we're seeing like this movement in the United States to really support Russia. What's your take on that?
Erez Zborowski: I feel that it's a misunderstanding of the administration's position. I, I feel that Americans in some way, conservative Americans feel shorted by Zelensky in Ukraine, you know, which I, I don't share that opinion, but, but I do understand where they're coming from. I mean, listen, anybody who was hearing this number 350 billion, um, on the television.
This many times has the right to start asking questions. But I feel that capitulating to one of our gravest enemies is a mistake of a reaction to say the least.
Marc Beckman: So, Erez, going back to terror, the concept of terrorists, soft power, communication campaigns, you know, leveraging social media, leveraging earned media and beyond. Are countries like the United States of America, even Russia capable of pushing back against these corporate, these, um, terrorist organizations?
Erez Zborowski: So, so, so not, not to answer so tersely off the bat, but they absolutely could, uh, you know, one way of dealing with it is the way that Trump dealt with it in his first term, which is. to commit to a serious amount of strikes against these groups to get it to dedicate a good amount of intelligence resources to mapping them and finding them where they are and understanding sort of their machinations at present and seeking them out and destroying them relentlessly.
That, that would be an excellent start, but we don't have to start in that way. I mean, they're, they're, we have our own soft power. And I'll give you an example, uh, when Trump engaged in his sanctions against Iran, as he's sort of talking about in the news this week, um, Iran really put a collar on proxies.
That seemed to really do the trick. Some people say it actually delayed October 7th. Uh, by a few years also, um, you know, striking these leaders and commanders of these groups specifically to take out the organizers of these projects. Um, it's another, it's another massive, uh, boon for us.
Marc Beckman: But Erez, to your point, those organizers, especially for the content creation, social media, the soft power campaigns, they could be right here. I know that you believe that there are currently people in the United States, people right here in New York City who are terrorists and looking to activate within the States.
Erez Zborowski: Absolutely. Uh, that's why I completely believe in and support, um, that we are going through our country right now. And figuring out who exactly is here with us. I think it, I think it's crucial, absolutely crucial.
Marc Beckman: Is that even feasible though? There is like, is that like, how do we go through? We let what, like 16 million people or so in, uh, what was it? 12 million people in over the past four years. Uh, how do, how do we even figure out who's here?
Erez Zborowski: there, there are certainly ways of finding a great deal of them.
Marc Beckman: Good, good.
Erez Zborowski: I, I'm, I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm not, uh, I'm not sure, I'm not sure exactly, um, what their first steps will be, but, uh, I, ISR, for example, they're, they're going to be doing, um, Basically, surveillance in every way, shape, or form, um, from the local level, from the interpersonal sort of human intelligence level, to sort of doing satellite surveillance and communication surveillance and detection and
Marc Beckman: Domestically, you think in the United States?
Erez Zborowski: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think ICE is actually Doing a great job right now of, of, uh, taking care of this, this issue. I would be interested to know how many convicted terrorists or suspected terror affiliates that they've already arrested. Uh, because I've seen some people already arrested that were involved with the organizing October 7th protests, interestingly enough.
So I would tell you it's already happening.
Marc Beckman: I see all these like, um, terrorist attacks happening in Europe throughout, you know, these westernized cities. They seem so easy, right? Guy takes out a knife, guy takes out a gun, guy's driving a car. These types of scenarios seems like it would be easy to execute in places like New York, LA, Chicago, Miami, Boston, and beyond.
Why then, if they're here, aren't they activating in these major cities in that way?
Erez Zborowski: Well, that's a, it's a great question. It's, it's, it's a great question. Um, we could only speculate that firstly, maybe their plan has not unfolded yet. Another possibility is that we're just rewinding really quickly. I have to be clear about something comparing a terrorist attack in, in Europe and a terrorist attack in the United States is, is very different in weighing the cost benefit analysis to these organizations.
So we have to clarify that really quickly. Uh, and this is why doing an attack on the United States. Um, like these, um, that you've seen in Europe. would be beyond consequential for these organizations. And so in many ways, these attacks for them in the U S the juice is not worth the squeeze. Anything for us, Marc, um, needs to be a real blowout, sadly.
And, you know, I'm a New Yorker, you're a New Yorker. We both remember nine 11. So
Marc Beckman: I still smell it.
Erez Zborowski: absolutely. So, you know,
Marc Beckman: Erez, you gave me a ton of your time today. I want to ask you, as I do most of my guests, what are we missing, Erez? Like, what, what haven't you and I touched on that you'd like to share with the audience that's important for them to understand as it relates to this corridor of terrorist soft power technology?
Erez Zborowski: I would say that more than ever. It is so crucial to be vigilant of who is around you, who you are speaking to, and how you go about your life. The enemy and people who seek to hurt us, everyday Americans, they have never been closer to us ever before. They share our streets, our schools, our hospitals, everything.
Now is the time to be informed. Don't panic, don't spread panic. Read, speak, learn, understand. That's the, that's the best thing I could say. What we need now, Marc, is an informed public. That, beyond anything.
Marc Beckman: Erez, I end every show, uh, the same way with each guest. I'm sure you're familiar. I, I start with a lead, uh, question and, and I incorporate the name of the show Some Future Day, and I'd like to bring you into that mix. I'm excited about it. But what I'm thinking about is one of our interactions a few months ago, you were talking about how, um, in personas where they look.
Like a friend that one might have, they take on a name, they start posting fake images of people within their circle. So like the individuals that they're infiltrating put their guard down, right? Like I could trust you and you have no idea who's behind that, uh, keyboard. So, um, or who's behind that persona.
So in Some Future Day, terrorists are going to use technology in a way we haven't seen before. And that way is.
Erez Zborowski: And, and that way is, uh, becoming your best friend. Uh, becoming your, your daughter, your sister, your brother. Call, calling you and telling you to Come run to the flower shop, come run outside or, or, or maybe, uh, you know, using, using your social media to become you in a different setting, in a different place, that would be catastrophic for you.
Marc Beckman: Zborowski, you're an amazing person. I really appreciate you coming on today and sharing some insight. I hope you'll join us again on Some Future Day. This is an interesting and important conversation, obviously.
Erez Zborowski: Marc, thank you so much for having me.