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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:00)
Welcome to Messy Liberation. This is our special Everything is Political series. Where we're going to help you draw the connections between your everyday life and the world around you. Let's get started.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:12)
today we're joined by Shana Manai-Spence, your registered dietitian and nutritionist who calls yourself an all food spit dietitian. I have, I came to know of you as probably do lots of people because you have a really popular Instagram and threads, which is where I hang out account called the nutrition T, T E A, where you kind of spill the D on nutrition. And I,
freaking adore the way you show up and you get in people's comments and all the things to defend the fact or to just show up as the voice of, like, diet culture is a bunch of shit and here's why. And we need more of that, especially coming from dieticians and nutritionists and the people in your world where sometimes the harmful messaging can proliferate. So I'm excited to have you here to talk about this.
Shana Spence (00:39)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (00:57)
Is there anything else you wanted to mention about yourself? ⁓ I should have mentioned your book too, because you also have a book called Live Nourished. Make peace with food, banish body shame and reclaim joy that came out two years ago. All about these sorts of things. Thanks for being here, Shawna. Anything else that I missed on your intro?
Shana Spence (01:03)
yes.
Mm-hmm.
⁓ no, thank you. It's so funny. I'm all in people's comments. Like, yes, I am. It's so funny because I find myself very chatty online, but of course in person, I'm such an introvert. So, but yes, I do. I do love being online and just, you know, clearing things up for some people. And, you know, I'm based in New York and I work in public health, but I also do a bunch of media stuff and...
Taina Brown she/hers (01:20)
Yeah.
Shana Spence (01:41)
online presence as well. So I wear many hats. Yes.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:45)
I
like your being in the comments and also relate because I'm also an introvert, but it's easier to be a little fearless online. Unfortunately, the trolls.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:51)
Yes.
Shana Spence (01:51)
I know exactly, exactly.
In a good ⁓ positive way. Not in like a trolling way. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:55)
Yes, when you're doing it for good, think it's great. Well, we're
going to start this the way we do everything. You're here to talk to us about food, diet, culture, all of that. So when did you start to recognize in your journey that food is political?
Shana Spence (02:08)
Oh, goodness. I... It took a while, actually. I mean...
I think I've always had an idea, you know, when I was becoming a dietician, I, had to take like a community health class and community nutrition class. And that's where we sort of started learning about, you know, people having to, you know, needing access to food and not having access to food. And I think that that's what sort of sparked my interest, but I work in public health currently. I work for the department of health here in New York city.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:30)
Thanks for having me.
Shana Spence (02:41)
And my job is to go out into the fields. work in schools in...
predominantly low income areas. And so I'm sort of seeing firsthand that yes, our policies, our politicians who make these policies or unfortunately don't try to change some policies, it affects how people eat. It affects how folks access food. It also affects, I mean, everything's political, but you know, it affects like redlining what stores are in the area.
is, you know, it's sort of a shock, I think, hear this, but here, you know, especially in cities, you think of an abundance of stores, especially in New York. And I always tell people there's some areas in New York City, right, not
upstate, not in the suburbs, in New York City that are food deserts because they don't have grocery stores. People have to really travel to grocery stores and that's going to affect how some people access food. I think that, you know, that's why I kind of talk about the things I talk about because I'm sort of witnessing it firsthand. And I think that sometimes, well, especially now with our political climate,
Taina Brown she/hers (03:33)
Bye
Shana Spence (03:57)
and the people in charge currently, definitely has, you I think that I definitely have to keep talking about this because it's so incredibly important. ⁓ But yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:07)
Yeah. What
I've seen that or I've heard that that phrase food desert and you know, right now I live in Baltimore and before this I lived in Atlanta and there are definitely parts in both cities where it's like there's no quick access to like a grocery store or a market. How
Shana Spence (04:13)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:25)
How far does someone have to travel before it's considered a food desert?
Shana Spence (04:28)
it is when someone has to travel at least like 10 miles to access food. It's considered a food desert. And
Becky Mollenkamp (04:37)
And then there's
places where people walk, that is no small feat.
Shana Spence (04:40)
Exactly. That's
pretty, that's pretty far. you know, and that's for rural, right? That's for places where you have a car, but for, like you said, for walking for cities, it's actually one mile. And so, ⁓ yeah. And so a lot of times you're walking, you're walking and there are places where I was, you know, doing my, ⁓
Taina Brown she/hers (04:42)
Yeah.
Wow.
Shana Spence (05:03)
nutrition lessons and, you know, development and policies into the schools. And I'm walking around the neighborhood and I'm thinking to myself, I have not seen a grocery store. Okay. And we're talking about places, you know, this is New York City. like in Manhattan, in Queens, you know, I'm, I've been walking really far and I'm thinking I have not seen a place to access food unless we're talking about like a corner store or bodega, um, which
Taina Brown she/hers (05:14)
Hmm.
Shana Spence (05:32)
you know, yes, we're glad that they sell like the canned foods and you know, the things that they do for sure. But when we're talking about getting that variety of food that really nourishes us, you know, it's very hard. It's very hard in many places. yeah, so those are the actual parameters. One mile for if you live in an urban slash city and 10 miles for rural places. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (05:45)
Mm-hmm.
Well.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:58)
And that doesn't get at the
ableist part of that, that many people can't walk a mile, whatever. Yeah. Yeah. really limits people's access to nutrient dense food.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:04)
Yeah.
Shana Spence (06:04)
Exactly, exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:07)
Yeah, I remember
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (06:13)
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:14)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I remember growing up in New York, not in the city, but in Yonkers, and my grandmother having to walk to the grocery store because it's, in Yonkers, it's like Southwest Chester, so it's technically upstate, but it's still very urban.
and she couldn't drive. No one in the family really had a car either. And so she had her little cart that she would walk like up the hills to the grocery store and then walk back with all that stuff, like carrying it. And someone always had to go with her too because she hardly spoke English and she couldn't read or write. So again, this question of access, right? And she was a senior citizen, right? Like she was older with her own health condition. So this question of like...
Shana Spence (06:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (06:56)
Even if it is within a mile, how accessible is it? Is there public transportation? Do people have access to the social support that they need to get the nutrition that they need, the fresh food? We obviously had bodegas. One of our close family friends had a bodega a couple blocks from where she lived, and there was some fresh food there, but it was...
Shana Spence (07:14)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (07:22)
mostly like prepackaged, preprocessed kind of food, which is good in a pinch, right? Like obviously that has its place, but if you're talking about fresh food, that's a little bit of a different story and the variety as well.
Shana Spence (07:27)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly. Yeah, because we need a variety of nutrients. I'm, you know, one thing that I also always talk about is I call it convenience foods, like the canned foods. And they serve a purpose. Like I have a bunch of canned beans in my pantry right now because I personally just don't want to spend time soaking beans. I mean, I can, but I don't want to. So, yes. So that's what I mean by convenience foods. And it's technically canned food.
frozen foods, right, like frozen vegetables. So those I call like convenience foods. ⁓
Taina Brown she/hers (08:04)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (08:05)
And of course they serve a purpose, but our bodies need a variety of foods. quite frankly, the inaccessibility in some areas make that very challenging. And you mentioned disabilities, ableist, for sure. I 100 % think of people, older adults, people with disabilities who have mobile mobility issues. It's very difficult to get around.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:17)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (08:31)
Sure, there are some programs that deliver food, but not even everyone knows about those programs or has access to apply to those programs because you need the internet, you need the computer. So all of these things go hand in hand. So it's very difficult. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (08:43)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (08:48)
There's so many
barriers to eating in a way that nourishes your body for many people. Yet there are many people for whom those barriers don't exist and they don't necessarily understand those. Another one that I think about too is obviously there's a financial piece, right? Can you afford to buy health?
Shana Spence (08:52)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:07)
Nutritious, always try to, I'm trying to change my language as much as I can too around like judgment words around food, which we can get into. But can you afford to buy nutritious, nutrient dense kind of food?
Shana Spence (09:13)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (09:17)
especially when
the government's, you know, trying and succeeding in many cases of taking away a lot of these benefits that help families, SNAP benefits, other benefits that help people being able to get food onto their plates. And then there's also the issue around like who can grow food and who can't, right? When you don't have land, you don't have space, maybe also no knowledge, because where do we learn this? Often, like the idea of being able to plant and grow your own food is something you have to learn from someone and that's often passed down. And if that's not something that's come to you and
Taina Brown she/hers (09:23)
You
Becky Mollenkamp (09:47)
you don't and or don't have space for that and or don't have money for that because it's also a very expensive endeavor to grow your own food, which people don't always realize. So like there are all these barriers to access for food that I think are really important to talk about. And the piece that think is that you often do such a great job of is for those people who don't have those barriers, who don't understand that for a large percentage of population, there are very real barriers to getting food that can keep their bodies as healthy as they would like their bodies.
Taina Brown she/hers (09:51)
Yeah.
Shana Spence (09:58)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:17)
to be as everyone would like their bodies to be. What do you see happen on the other side of that? Like, what does that lead to as far as shame, personal accountability, and that kind of thing? The individualization of food choices.
Shana Spence (10:28)
yeah. for sure.
There's definitely...
a feeling of shame, you know, and how people eat, how they access food, what foods they're able to put into their bodies. And you can even see it online, you know, and not to not to base everything on social media. But sometimes you look at the questions people ask or someone posts and they're just like one was very recently where she kind of felt ashamed. She's I'm not sure.
what ethnicity, but she was talking about like mostly Hispanic, Latino, Latinx foods, know, rice and beans, right? So Frito. And she was saying, you know, I love these foods, but do I have to give them up because they're, you know, they're not clean, quote unquote clean. And, you know, so people already have this stigma in their heads about what's considered quote unquote healthy or, you know, and what's not.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:26)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (11:26)
And that's coming from a very, of course, westernized white supremacy kind of area of focus, which I'm sure we'll get into.
Even when I'm doing, even when I'm out in certain communities and people come up to me one on one, when I'm at my centers and at my place of business, people will always ask questions. Well, do I have to give up this? Do I have to give up that? Or they'll start with, I know it's unhealthy, but I love X, Y, and Z. And I always say, well, who said that it's unhealthy? You know, and I kind of ask them, say, what do you mean it's unhealthy? Do you have an allergy to it? Because then,
Taina Brown she/hers (11:58)
Hmm.
Shana Spence (12:07)
definitely don't eat it, you know, or, you know, why do you feel like it's unhealthy? And it's, well, I read about this or someone said this. And so we really kind of have to. And that's the reason why I speak about certain topics the way that I do, because I think that we're just oversaturated right now with information and where that information is coming from. I don't want to say.
I try to believe everyone has good intentions. Like I don't want to call everybody problematic, but it's just ⁓ oftentimes misinformed. I'll say that misinformed. ⁓
Taina Brown she/hers (12:42)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shana Spence (12:46)
because I do believe a lot of people do have good intentions, but it's hard because unless you actually went to school and read studies and know how to interpret studies, everything sounds scary. Everything, our food system sounds very scary, but.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:01)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:02)
We
Shana Spence (13:06)
you know, I spent a lot of time, you know, not saying that I'm, you know, the smartest person out there, but I spent a lot of time in school. Exactly. I spent a lot of time, you know, going to school and learning how to read studies. So how I interpret things is going to be very different from someone who is just looking at, you know, something posted on CNN, you know, with
Taina Brown she/hers (13:13)
But this is your work. Yeah.
Yeah, some random
graph, yeah.
Shana Spence (13:32)
Exactly, exactly. So I like to really dig deeper and always ask people, well, where are you getting this information that something is unhealthy? Like, why is it unhealthy to you? Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:44)
Yeah. And it's so easy to take data and manipulate it. And I think that's something that a lot of people don't understand. First of all, it's easy to manipulate how to get the data, right? How you ask the questions to get the data that you want. It's so easy to do that. And then once you have the data, whether or not you've manipulated the outcome, it's easy to just manipulate what it looks like, right? To use language and to use specific kinds of like...
Shana Spence (13:48)
for sure.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:12)
charts and graphs to make it look one way without actually contextualizing the information that you're sharing. so my wife is a data scientist. So it's like her biggest pet peeve all the time. It's like, okay, well, like who's asking the real questions here? Like, where's this coming from? And so it's a conversation we always have in our home. How do you incorporate some of that work with
Shana Spence (14:22)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:37)
Like I know you talked about like, you know, asking clients like, where did you hear that? Like, where did you learn that? Where did that come from? But like, how, how else does it show up in terms of like helping clients understand like all the intersections that are involved in how we think about food and what we put in our bodies and how we think about health, right? And nutrition.
Shana Spence (14:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think just really
Whenever I see certain topics come up, I sort of try to either write about it in long form, like in Substack, or just making a post about it. I try my best. I mean, you're not gonna please everybody. There are a lot of people in this world, but I try my best to post about things on social media that maybe I see.
keep coming up repetitively as far as, you know, some things are misinformed or misguided. And I'll try to talk that way as well. You know, whenever I'm in the schools and, you know, a big, I'll give you an example, right? Like seed oils is always a huge topic of concern for many people. And that's another, those are also studies that have been misinterpreted. First of all,
Becky Mollenkamp (15:33)
.
Shana Spence (15:49)
many studies when it comes to nutrition are done in rats, right? And I always say we need to base our interpretation on humans, on how it affects humans because we do not have the same bodies as rats, okay? And so a lot of times, you know,
People will just look at the conclusion of a study or they'll see well, it's associated with something, you know toxic and You know seed oils now. I'm shocked that it keeps coming up. This has been debunked it's actually showing that they're good for our health and People like to compare our food system to I don't know Europe is like the standard of food systems for some reason which is kind of funny But they use seed oils in everything
And they do this because seed oils actually are heart health promoting. And so I remember once, this was actually last year, I was at a conference in the Netherlands and one of the fellow, I was on a panel and one of the fellow panelists, she was like, well, why do, why are Americans, she was Belgium.
from Belgium. And she said, why are Americans so scared of seed oils? I said, because a lot of times the data that we're getting is misinterpreted. So, you know, I see constant questions like that come up. And so I'll try to respond in a way that's sort of neutral, that's not shaming somebody for asking because people have a right to want to know what's in their food. But I do find myself posting about things in order to get out to the general public or writing about
Taina Brown she/hers (17:27)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (17:28)
it or if someone one-on-one has a question, you know, after I'm doing my lessons, I'll speak on that. But that's really how I like to get the word out there.
Becky Mollenkamp (17:38)
And you know, because you're talking, I like trying to mention sort of the difference between like food and nutrition and like health and also where diet stuff fits in there. Like there's diet, meaning the foods we eat and then diet as in restriction, but I'm sure industry and your experience in that it feels like things have gotten a lot better. And it does seem like dietitians and nutritionists have contributed and so have all sorts
Shana Spence (17:44)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:06)
of other people who lack education. So, but even within the industry of people who maybe should have known better or one would think maybe would be better educated but weren't because of white supremacy and all the reasons who've helped to contribute some of these beliefs about body size and shape and these sorts of things and the way that they, the line between that and what is considered healthy. And I do think like I see so much improvement happening and now we're entering this
Shana Spence (18:19)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:35)
wild, wild new frontier of GLP-1s. And again, all of the...
Shana Spence (18:37)
Mmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (18:39)
caveats around like there are many people for whom they are life-saving, are needed, and we're grateful for medicine where it's helpful and yet it's also contributing to kind of taking us back in some ways to when I feel like some of this was at its peak worst around these links between what you put in your mouth and then like what may whether you're healthy or not. What you put in your mouth, what your body ends up looking like in theory because of that and then whether you're healthy. So I'm just wondering like if you could reflect a little bit on what you've know what you've seen about the industry that you're in and how
it's contributed, how it's changed, and if you have any worries about things moving forward.
Shana Spence (19:14)
Oh, for sure.
You know, I think we're always evolving. You know, we are a science based spec, you know, industry with food nutrition. You know, it's it's always going to be evolving. And I think that, you know, unlike what you're reading about mostly in our, you know, in the media with clickbait titles, our food supply is now safer than ever. And, you know,
It's unfortunate that it's shown to be otherwise. You know, I mean, we've gotten to a place. I think everyone's learned this. I remember learning about this in high school, like our food system, you know, how it used to be. They it was like a free for all right when they were producing milk. It wasn't really milk. They'd like put like chalk or something in there to make it more white. Like things like that they used to do. And look at how far we've come now, you know, with regulating certain things. And so.
Becky Mollenkamp (20:08)
and ⁓ drinking
raw milk.
Shana Spence (20:10)
I know. Well, and then and then we take two steps
back. So it's like it's like we're we're moving forward and then we're kind of going backwards. But I think that, you know, it's it's really important.
Taina Brown she/hers (20:15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Shana Spence (20:25)
That's why I try to talk as much as I do about our food system and, you know, because it's always gonna change. And I think we should also keep up with the change as well. And that goes with body image, you know? Like you said, it's now with the GLP-1s, it's...
Yes, it's needed because we have to remember that it's also medication for diabetes, right? People need that. It's life-saving for people with diabetes. However, it's gotten to a point now where we have someone like, and this is no shade to any particular celebrity. Since she's out there, I'm just using her name, but someone like Serena Williams, right? Who is now the face of Ro.
which is a type of medication. You know, we're seeing celebrities who, she's like one of the greatest athletes of our generation, of our time. And you know, now she's using something because of body image, you know, that we're now seeing a thinner is in. So now we have someone like Serena Williams advertising this, you know.
There's Oprah is always going to be the face, unfortunately, of weight loss industry, no matter what it is. So we're seeing all of these celebrities now talking about having all this access to GLP-1s and people getting access to GLP-1s to lose weight. But is it really, and I really wish people would question, is it?
for actual health reasons or is it more for vanity? Because I always use the quote, are you in pursuit of thinness or are you actually in pursuit of health? Because most of the time we're just in pursuit of thinness. We're just in pursuit of an aesthetic. And, you know, I see this all the time when people are talking about food. Well, you know, it's healthy to only eat 1200 calories a day. It's not actually because our body, organs,
require 1300 calories to function. So again, what exactly is health promoting about what you're advertising? So I always ask people to really think about what they're saying and what they're putting out there. Because especially with the GLP-1 usage, I mean, we see celebrities on the red carpet and I try not to...
I don't try to make assumptions right away because I just remember celebrities who actually had health problems, right? We see them shrinking and then we find out they had health problems. So that's why I'm very, very hesitant to just lash onto people's appearance. ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (22:58)
Thank
Taina Brown she/hers (23:07)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (23:08)
However, when you're actually advertising yourself using something to, you know, to lose weight and it's, and it's getting to a point where it might be concerning. That's when we kind of have to really say, Hey, maybe we should rethink this. you know, so it's, it's a little, you know, it's, it's, there's never a dull moment, I will say in my industry, because now we're, battling so much. And, I know dieticians who work.
for clinical, for hospitals or their own private practice, even if they're like myself who are weight inclusive, who don't push weight loss, they have clients on GLP-1s who are malnourished because GLP-1s, you know, they take away that hunger.
So you're always feeling that satiety and you're not hungry. So they're not nourishing themselves properly because of that. So now they're dealing, so now we're looking at malnourishment. So it's just this ever evolving cycle when it comes to food and nutrition for many different reasons. And, you know, unfortunately,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:50)
Yeah.
Shana Spence (24:09)
I don't want to say GLP-1s aren't necessarily bad because again, like I said before, people with diabetes need them. But it's concerning now that there's more access available to people who want them. I'll just say that. Not need, the want. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:25)
Yeah, yeah. They seem
to have like kind of exploded in the past year. Like I remember when it was just like Majoro or I forgot which one it was, but it was just like one and now they're everywhere and now all the independent health apps and health startups are offering them too. And then I saw an ad for like a GLP-1 pill now where it's like not an injection. And so it's it's...
Shana Spence (24:31)
Totally.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:51)
it's becoming this like really, it's moved from the exception to the rule, right? And so, ⁓ I.
Shana Spence (24:57)
100%.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:59)
And it's moved from
the medical arena, although the medical arena was also corporatized, but it's moved from strictly like medical necessity to becoming a commodity that someone can make money off of. that's such a problem with not just, mean, Yopi Ones are an example of that, but like food as a whole is corporatized,
Shana Spence (25:06)
Mm-hmm. ⁓
Exactly.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:11)
Yeah.
all this, you know, talking about like food deserts and and, know, the example of like Serena and Oprah and this idea of like beauty standards being one very Eurocentric in general. Right. Like they obviously they shift and they evolve over time. And there was a time, you know, in the early 2000s where Curvy was in. Right. And so then everyone wanted like, you know, the Beyonce Bud or
Shana Spence (25:33)
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:45)
or the JLo
butt or the Kim Kardashian butt. Well, not the Kim Kardashian butt, because her butt is fake. you know, but like, bottled her butt after everyone else's butt, you know? But in general, we look at, historically, if we look at how beauty standards have been shaped, right? It's typically shaped in a way that accommodates white supremacy, that accommodates this like Eurocentric vision of like what.
Shana Spence (25:49)
I know.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:11)
especially for women, right, for what femininity is supposed to look like and for proper femininity that upholds white supremacist ideals. And so, you know, in this conversation, like I can't help but think about, like, obviously, access to nutrition and nutritious food is an issue for more than just one type of community. But I think I'm always thinking at the intersection of like how this affects,
Shana Spence (26:12)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:38)
groups of people that have been historically marginalized, right? Like Black and brown communities, right? When we think about like food deserts and urban areas, which shouldn't fucking exist. Like it's a highly developed area to live in. Why is there no grocery store within a mile of someone's home? Like that should just not be a thing. But then when we think, like I'm thinking about places in Atlanta that were food deserts they were almost all Black and brown communities.
Shana Spence (26:48)
Mm-hmm.
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:06)
that had
been redlined, that had been gerrymandered outside of certain districts over time for voter suppression. And then there's lack of access to housing, lack of access to food. so when you're, I know this is your work, your industry, not just something that you're passionate about, How do you handle that and address that in your work?
Shana Spence (27:27)
gosh, I try to, I always talk about it because I think that it's so incredibly important because people forget or they don't realize even. I remember even in my work, you know, we were having a meeting, an internal meeting and someone from the outside at a certain organization was presenting to us. And I'll never forget the present.
was saying, you it was a great presentation, but we were talking about redlining and the grocery stores, you know, being sometimes a disparity in certain neighborhoods. And the person presenting was even saying that they were shocked. They didn't realize that 99 cents stores were actually a thing, were actually existing because they, and they didn't realize, you know, they didn't realize this because they don't live in those neighborhoods.
neighborhoods,
because where do you normally see like 99 cent stores, right? And so it's always kind of astonishing to me that we sometimes just live in totally separate worlds with other people. And again,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:19)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (28:33)
person had great intentions and not that their presentation wasn't great or that they weren't knowledgeable, but this goes to show you that even when you work in community health in some place like, that's like the health department or some, something like that, or some nonprofit organization, when you're going into certain communities,
you don't actually most of the time, a lot of people who go into those communities don't live there, don't reside there. So it's sort of a shock to the system. You know, like, wait, I can't find a grocery store around here or ⁓ I didn't realize 99 cent stores actually existed. It's like, of course they existed. Of course they exist because there are no grocery stores. So, yes, like, you know, the Dollar Tree actually is is a store, you know, it's not just a made up
TikTok thing, it's actually a store. So it's always really interesting to me, that perspective. And it just makes me realize that we need to keep talking about these things because oftentimes many people don't realize that these issues exist and they're systemic issues. are intentional, let's face it because
Taina Brown she/hers (29:26)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (29:48)
Thank you.
Shana Spence (29:52)
We're not, our money is being, you know, kind of used.
I'm talking about money like as government, you know, it's being used for other things. And there is a need, you know, there's a need for healthcare, there's a need for accessible food, there's a need for housing, but we're spending it on all these other things. So it's hard to keep talking about it, because I'm sure people are like, my God, this again. But I'm going to keep talking about it because I think it's necessary. So.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:20)
I think it's really important and
you a unique view into a lot of this that a lot of people, most of us don't and an understanding since you do work at that government level and you mentioned at the beginning like I'm sure we'll get into the ways the government is a part of this because that's all I mean a lot of these conversations we're having about how things are political it's both about the actual policies and the political people who are responsible for this and also like culturally and the way our systems reinforce those policies outside of the actual policies.
Shana Spence (30:42)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (30:50)
But I would love to hear a little more about, obviously, I hinted at SNAP and that there are benefits that can help people access food. There some of these things like redlining, which I don't think is any longer an actual allowed policy, but it still happens. But what are some of the government policies that contribute to the politics of food that affect who gets access and who doesn't and all of that?
Shana Spence (30:55)
yeah.
Mm-hmm.
for sure, SNAP. know, SNAP was a big one. you know, SNAP educational programs, like, you know, the program that I work for currently has definitely been affected because of the cuts to SNAP.
So with the big beautiful bill, when it first came out, they were talking about how it's going to be restructured, right? SNAP is going to be restructured as far as who can benefit from it, who can still get their families on the program. in a way, and of course, all of this is just to save money, right? It always comes down to capital, so I'm at the end of the day.
It's unfortunately a lot of people, how they restructured things. Now people that were maybe on disability, people that were of a certain age. Now it's like you have to prove your worth to get access to food by finding some sort of job in order to qualify for SNAP, in order to qualify to get access to food. And the thing, the whole reason for SNAP is because those people
could not work, right? Could not work the hours as someone who is able-bodied. So that was the whole point and now that's being restructured. So we're going to see and of course, you know, we're not, we're not getting the...
what are the, what is it called? Where we see like the food insecurity statistics that has been dismantled, which is no surprise because Snap was cut off. now, surprise, surprise, all of a we're not getting the food insecurity statistics. So we're not seeing the trend in that, but we know that when someone isn't going to access food or not.
able to access food, obviously food insecurity is going to go up. it had already been increasing before the government kind of shut down that funding for those studies. So we know that it's most likely going to be on the rise now. And so it's just very hard. So SNAP is definitely one.
big one where again, food policies, know, the politics of food who we decide to vote, you know, and this and I'm not just and it's not just blaming one party because they're both parties, right? Unfortunately, we have a two party system. And, you know, it's not just one side because unfortunately, people from, you know, the Democratic side also decided that, you know what, let's go ahead with this big beautiful bill, because
again at the end of the day, it's all about money. And unfortunately, it's people who need access to food that are going to pay the price. Just like how the...
Obamacare, as people like to call it, or ACA, right? That is also being, or in talks, being restructured, so people are gonna have their healthcare affected. So all of these, it's sort of like a trickle down, like a trickle down effect, but for sure SNAP has been the biggest one, has been the biggest cut that we see. So it's very concerning, it's very concerning.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:22)
Yummy, you're the tiny one.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:23)
Sorry, I forgot I was on mute. It kind of creates this domino effect, Because food insecurity happens not because there's not enough food, but because of access to food. And then you take away people's access to food, create food insecurity, which creates health problems and now all of a sudden people have less access to healthcare. So it's creating this world in which...
Shana Spence (34:25)
it's okay. ⁓
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (34:46)
you're just setting up, you're scaffolding up ways for people to just die. Like, not to be macabre, but like basically that's where we're headed, you know? And like, how do you see climate change affecting all of this? Cause I know a lot of times the argument is like, you know, well, because of climate change, our food.
Shana Spence (34:51)
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:05)
structures or food systems are going to change and you know, and our food, some of our food is going to be contaminated or not contaminated or GMOs, like things like that, having to like grow, like have lab grown food because of the land being like just unable to be used because of whatever reason. So like, how does that affect access to food and like what kind of nutritious food we have available to us?
Shana Spence (35:14)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you know, I'm going to say something very controversial here. Like, I'm not actually not scared or I I'm not against like lab grown foods, right? Because we do have we climate change is very much impactful. And we, you know, especially now, again, everything is political, where we're now seeing all of these pesticides being approved.
by our governments, we're seeing the EPA funding cut for that. All of these things again are being affected, which affects our food. But also, I know lab-grown sounds very scary, but it...
Taina Brown she/hers (35:58)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (36:11)
It's really not because if we can find a way to mimic nutrition where it can make more foods accessible to people.
I don't think that's a bad thing. I don't think it's necessarily, I know the word sounds scary, like even GMO, right? Like genetically modified, you know, there are only 11 crops that are currently GMO. You know, so every single time I see a label on something that's like, I'm non-GMO, it's like, no, that's because we don't have GMO in your crop. But, you know, I think that that's sort of where we're headed.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:31)
Mm.
Shana Spence (36:49)
as far as trying to come up with ways to get food out to people, to make it more accessible because we don't have, we have more people now on this planet that need to be fed. So that looks like I know, where was this?
Taina Brown she/hers (37:04)
Mm.
Shana Spence (37:05)
I don't know how long ago this was actually. So I might be wrong on timing, but this was like a few years ago
where people were developing a certain rice, like a golden rice. I'm not sure if it was Japan or China, but you know, again, like these lab grown GMO foods, but they developed a rice that was more.
I had more nutrients than your regular field grown rice. that's a way to get more nutrition out to people. And so, like I said, it sounds scary, but again, when I think of processed foods and I think of enriched foods or fortified foods, that's just adding vitamins and minerals to certain foods. It's...
Taina Brown she/hers (37:30)
No
Shana Spence (37:49)
in it's in like a food system, right? We have to like when
When I look at the cereal I have on my counter now, I see a bunch of vitamins and minerals added to that. That occurred, you know, in an industrial setting. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. You know, do I want people eating an abundance of sugar, an abundance of fats? No, I do not. But I do think that there is a way to make food more nutritious and we need to find a way to feed people.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:04)
Yeah.
Shana Spence (38:19)
and we're running out of land sources. So, you know, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:19)
you
Taina Brown she/hers (38:26)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (38:27)
We mentioned Europe as a standard, the gold standard. We can get into all of the colonial, colonizing, white supremacist reasons that that's probably the case, both in perception and making reality. But I'm just curious for you, as you think about things like quality of food, access to food, policies around food, what is your gold standard? What would be your dream? We can't change the reality of how many people are on Earth, but if we could make some changes.
Shana Spence (38:52)
Am I right?
Becky Mollenkamp (38:54)
you know, policies and access and quality. Like, what would you like the food system and our thoughts around nutrition to look like?
Shana Spence (39:02)
I mean, in an ideal world, I would love for something, you know, like farmers markets. I would love that to not just be, I don't know what farmers markets are like in other places, but in New York, they're like twice a week, you know, and you have to like get, and they cost a bunch of money.
I'm talking about the food, the things that are sold, you know, for obvious reasons, right? It's a ton of work that, know, is put into farming and all of that. And, but in an ideal world, it would be great to have more of those types of markets in many places throughout the week that are, so it's accessible. You know, it's currently for myself to get to the nearest farmer's market where I live.
I, it's definitely more than mile. It's, you know, it's only on Saturdays. So it's a bit of a trek and you know, it would be nice if I could do that more often. And if the prices would be lower, you know, thinking of people that, you know, can't afford, can't afford that, you know, I,
Because when I read online where people are talking about, my god, grocery store bills are increasing, someone will always say in the comments, just grow your own food.
How are you growing your own food when you live in a high rise with all these other buildings? You know, it's just not realistic. And so that's why it would be great to be able to, you know, have more of those types of markets around to buy, you know, that seasonal produce around. That would be great in an ideal world. But again, ⁓
Taina Brown she/hers (40:35)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (40:36)
Thank
Taina Brown she/hers (40:39)
Yeah,
Shana Spence (40:40)
It's not realistic with the amount of people we have, with the cost.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:40)
yeah. And even if you like we have a backyard and we. It's not possible for everyone.
Shana Spence (40:47)
Yeah, it's unfortunate.
Taina Brown she/hers (40:49)
even if you do have the land to grow your own food, like if you have mobility issues that makes it harder. it's not always just a matter of like access to land. I did want to highlight, Becky, before you ask your question, there's.
A school, a private school, it's a community school. So when I say private, I don't mean like rich, It's in an urban setting in Atlanta. And they have some land and they teach the kids to grow the food. And then the families can partake of the food that's grown there, of the produce that's grown there. And I think that's a really exceptional model for like how a community can like build together a sustainable source of food.
Shana Spence (41:05)
haha
Taina Brown she/hers (41:25)
Within within its own parameters. ⁓
Becky Mollenkamp (41:28)
Well, community gardens are
amazing and where available, where there's land, where there's all of the things that go into it, they're amazing when that works and that is part of the dream. Ideal world would be that we could have more communal experiences of food and collective experience of growing and sharing. And I just wanted to mention too on that ideal vision, it's like when it comes to the farmers markets and community gardens and things like that, our government is subsidizing
Shana Spence (41:31)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:55)
like corn, they're subsidizing crops that often end up destroyed versus subsidizing small farmers, right? There's corporate subsidies that go to very large farmers. Most of our farming now is factory farming. It's large, corporatized farming. the small farmer doesn't, it hardly exists anymore and where they do, they're struggling because they don't, most of them, most often, are not getting access to those subsidies because there's not subsidies for small crops of tomatoes.
Shana Spence (42:00)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:23)
lettuce and that is a big part of the problem too so yeah it's just like thinking about how our money, our money is being used right yeah so anyway that's all I wanted to add to that.
Shana Spence (42:30)
Yeah
Yeah, you know, much of eating and food is supposed to be commuted.
Taina Brown she/hers (42:35)
on.
Shana Spence (42:39)
you know, communal. Like, whenever I talk about food, like I talk about so many different topics, but I always say, like, food represents many things, and I think community and a shared joy is one of them. Like, whenever you look at old pictures, of, you know, back in the day, talking like Victorian times, like you see a table with food around it, you know, the whole
you know, the whole concept of breaking bread, right? It's it was like, that's how people got together and gathered. You know, it was around food. And I think that, you know, unfortunately, we've come to a place now where people are now scared to eat certain foods, you know, when we're going back to diet culture. You know, we're now we're just in a place where everyone's so scared. And I see articles about I forget which
Well, I would never call them out anyway, but I definitely read an article where they were talking about how women are more likely when they meet up with their friends to go out to brunch and they were like, well, you know, to help you lose weight, maybe just consider going to an exercise class with your girlfriends instead. And I'm like, what in the diet culture?
Taina Brown she/hers (43:56)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (43:57)
I was like, I mean, yes, I would. mean, yeah, sure, we'll work out. But afterwards, we're doing something else. Like, what are you talking about? So I just think that we forget that, like, so much of community is centered around food and even the concept of community gardens. Right. That's how we're supposed to be. We're supposed to be a communal, thriving society. And unfortunately, we're very individualistic.
made me think of that very problematic article I saw once.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:26)
Yeah,
last question here. We covered a lot. But what is the one thing that for someone who's watching this on YouTube or listening to this on their drive in or from work or wherever, what's the one thing you want people to keep thinking about when it comes to nutrition and food and how the politics of all of that?
Shana Spence (44:47)
I would say that food, always remember that food and how you eat is always going to be individual. And individual meaning of course what works for your body as far as certain foods. Even if you're not allergic to something, maybe some foods don't make you feel great. So definitely don't eat them. But individual as far as also how you access food. Because I think that...
You know, I talk about a lot of things, but I will always talk about processed foods slash convenience foods because I don't want people to feel ashamed when they have to use something that comes from a can, right? Because we're told fresh is best, not always, you know, or they have to use something from a package or that's frozen. And I want people to remember that how we eat is going to be individual because of our finances,
Taina Brown she/hers (45:24)
Mm-hmm.
Shana Spence (45:39)
because
of our accessibility. Like for some people, they can't chop because they have fine motor skill issues. So they're gonna purchase pre-cut vegetables, pre-cut onions. And I don't want someone to feel ashamed of that because that's how you're gonna nourish your body. That's great. And I just want people to remember that, that food is individual. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:03)
That's what you do such a good job on social media of showing up when people start saying like, who would spend this much money on diced tomatoes or whatever. That reminder, I'm advocating for those voices, so thank you. And I guess actually there's one more question, which is if there's one resource, one book maybe, that people could read and don't have your education around nutrition, so I'm talking laypeople books for the rest of us.
Shana Spence (46:10)
Is the reason it exists. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (46:27)
We want to learn a little more about this. What's one book you need to open your eyes in some way around some aspect of diet culture, food policy,
Shana Spence (46:33)
⁓
mine is out there. I would always say mine. as far as learning more about diet culture, I mean, there's so many different, different ones to consider. My first introduction, which I thought was so helpful was Chrissy Harrison's
anti-diet. I, you know, and I think that it's really helpful because she breaks down, again, the history of diet culture. So if anyone's really fascinated in that aspect, that would also be a really great resource to have. Excuse me. I always think Sabrina Strings Fearing the Black Body is also incredibly important. It's, you know, it's like a must have as well.
really goes into
how as far as like how white supremacy had a huge impact on how we view our bodies as a whole as society. So that is also a really great resource. And I will also add, I have a friend right Chrissy King, I know many people have heard of her, but the Body Liberation Project is also such a great read and book. If you are tired of the diet culture noise, I think that's also
a really great resource to have on the shelf. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:48)
I love Sissy. And I have Sabrina's book as well, Sabrina Strings. It's
a little denser, meaning like a little more academic, but definitely worth reading. But thank you so much for this, Shana. I really appreciate you being here and being a part of this. And we'll link to your book and your social media in the show notes so people can go read your book. And then also definitely follow The Nutrition Tea because you bring it and it's amazing. thank you.
Shana Spence (47:56)
for sure, for sure. Yeah.
thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:12)
Thanks for listening to Messy Liberation. Will you please take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review wherever you listen? Taking that moment to do that will really help us reach a wider audience. Thank you so much for your support and for listening today. Until next time.