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Pinaki Kathiari & Chris Lee challenge traditional best practices in the workplace
Chris Lee (00:00)
Welcome back to Between the Seasons, the mini-series from your friends here at Why Does It Feel So Wrong to Be Human at Work. I'm Chris Lee, as usual, and today, of course, I'm always joined by my co-host and my friend, Pinaki Kathiari
Bree Bartos (00:00)
Yes?
Pinaki Kathiari (00:15)
What's up everybody?
Chris Lee (00:16)
And
of
we're
Pinaki Kathiari (00:17)
up everybody?
Chris Lee (00:17)
And
of course we're joined by our fearless producer, Bree Bartos Say hi, Bree And I'm
Bree Bartos (00:22)
Hi everyone.
Chris Lee (00:24)
And I'm psyched about today's episode because we've got a familiar friend that has been on this podcast as you know before, Chuck Gose And Chuck Gose is not only a friend of the podcast, but also you may know him as the founder of ICology
Bree Bartos (00:23)
Hi everyone.
Chris Lee (00:43)
And he's also co-host of a podcast, Frequency. And of course, he's a friend of Pinaki and myself. So hello, Chuck, welcome.
Chuck Gose (00:56)
great to be here. I'm glad I know now what BTS stands for. I thought we were just behind the scenes this whole time. I didn't know it was between the seasons.
Pinaki Kathiari (01:01)
Hahaha!
Did everybody just freeze for me? Wow.
Bree Bartos (01:04)
Also a K-pop band.
Chuck Gose (01:06)
Right,
Pinaki Kathiari (01:07)
All at the same time.
Chuck Gose (01:07)
I was going all different directions on this. Yeah, it was good to know. Thanks Chris.
Chris Lee (01:08)
Chuck, I'm not gonna lie, I'm embarrassed to say that I honestly thought
it meant behind the scenes and I didn't even make the connection between the seasons until you literally said it. So there you go. I didn't even know.
Bree Bartos (01:15)
Guys!
Pinaki Kathiari (01:21)
It is a famous like K-pop band,
right? So let's not.
Bree Bartos (01:23)
Yes, it's
a very popular K-pop fan. Alright, well guys...
Pinaki Kathiari (01:31)
So, Bree, what do have for us today? What's going on?
Bree Bartos (01:35)
Today we are course reading a Reddit story and reacting to it. Today our topic is difficult clients ⁓ and we will be talking about that and today's Reddit story is a little long so if at any point you guys want to comment or interject, feel free and if you guys are ready, I'm ready to jump into it.
Pinaki Kathiari (01:57)
Let's go. Take us.
Chris Lee (01:58)
Yeah, let's do this.
Bree Bartos (01:58)
All right,
Today's post comes from the subreddit Consulting and is titled, Is Walking Away From a Toxic Client Admitting Defeat? So, I'm a senior manager at a global firm and I'm at the point with my client where I wake up with a literal pit in my stomach knowing I have to engage with them. It's like reliving the same nightmare over and over.
I'm at my breaking point and I'd appreciate some advice from others who have dealt with similar situations. We're seven weeks in and nothing has changed. This particular client has been incredibly disrespectful, inconsistent, and frankly toxic. Every interaction feels like a battle where no matter how much effort I put in, I'm always on the receiving end of criticism. Even though we've had multiple conversations to clarify expectations and agree on deliverables,
They keep changing their mind or sending conflicting feedback. For example, one moment they say, we've already given you what you need. And the next they demand new work or messaging created entirely from scratch. They give us vague, unclear directions, but then criticize us for not following them perfectly. All while constantly reminding us of risks and dependencies we've escalated several times over. All in writing, I've been keeping meticulous documentation.
When they're not belittling us, they're micromanaging the process or questioning our competence in front of others. It's like no matter what we do, it's never enough. This client also doesn't take accountability for when they've made mistakes or misguided us. They can never do any wrong. This behavior is starting to take a serious toll on me. I've emotionally detached from the situation to keep pushing through, but it's wearing me down to the point where I dread interacting with the client.
The constant disrespect and shifting expectations are exhausting and I'm finding it hard to maintain my professionalism when it feels like I'm constantly being hit with criticism or being undermined. I'm a senior manager and part of me feels like I should just muscle through these tough conversations and handle it. But I'm really struggling trying to shield the juniors I'm working with while the partner has been a bit aloof and is out of office currently.
I don't wanna quit or escalate prematurely to the lead client partner, but I can't keep tolerating the constant barrage and negativity. How do you deal with a client who is constantly questioning your competence and undermining your efforts without completely burning out or losing your confidence? Has anyone here been through something like this? How do you keep pushing forward when the client's behavior is this toxic? At what point do you escalate it or admit that it's too much to handle?
Pinaki Kathiari (04:37)
Well, real quick question. How many weeks has this been? I know it wasn't there. I didn't take notes on that one. Seven weeks. Yeah. Wow. This is like, yeah, a little bit like almost two months and escalated to this much.
Bree Bartos (04:42)
Seven. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (04:55)
I think, mean, all of us, we work with different types of clients. ⁓ And I think the nature of our business too is there's a lot of ⁓ subjective elements to it. ⁓ But the way I distinguish, so I think lots of clients are challenging and I don't think that's what's happening here. I don't think we're talking about a challenging client. I think we're talking about a client that is ⁓ unreasonable, does not have a mature...
leadership acumen or a skill set to communicate clearly. And ⁓ I think this client sounds like they're being adversarial for the sake of being adversarial as opposed to thinking about this as an actual partnership. So ⁓ I wanted to just get your thoughts, ⁓ Chuck, Pinaki, ⁓ in terms of have you dealt with clients ⁓
that are like this.
Chuck Gose (05:57)
Well, I want to go back to the beginning thinking about is that consulting Reddit thread one of the most boring Reddit threads possible? I can't even imagine like what else is included in there. That being said.
Chris Lee (06:03)
Hahaha!
Pinaki Kathiari (06:07)
You
Bree Bartos (06:08)
It has 132,000
weekly visitors and 792 weekly posts or contributions.
Chuck Gose (06:15)
So I
need to be a better Reddit user, especially with what's happened at Twitter. I feel like that's where I now need to go is spend more time on Reddit. Rest in peace, how great Twitter used to be. I wanna know, I feel like there's a little bit of a he said, she said into this. I wanna know what would the client be writing right now if they came into the client thread on Reddit, what are they saying about this consultant?
Pinaki Kathiari (06:22)
Mm-hmm. I think so.
Bree Bartos (06:24)
That's what I did.
Chuck Gose (06:44)
What are they saying? Are they like, man, we're trying to lead this thing. Yes, we have a lot of demands. We thought they were up for the challenge. They keep coming back with excuses. Like to me, any client slash agency or client slash consultant, that is a relationship. And so I would love to know like, what was the relationship like before the work started? Did you actually have a full understanding of each other's needs, expectations?
work styles or was this like, man, we got this deal. Let's get going. And now there's a clash that's happening. There was a, I wish I had taken notes when Bree was reading through that. Cause there was a lot of judgment put in like words like belittle. Like that's, that's a very personal feeling. I wonder if the, this client actually feels like they are belittling or do they just have very high expectations?
Bree Bartos (07:29)
Mm-hmm.
Chuck Gose (07:42)
they don't think this agency is meeting. So to me, this is a relationship. Sounds like it started off pretty rocky for one side, but we also don't know the client side of the story either.
Bree Bartos (07:55)
Yeah, that is the tricky part with Reddit is that we only get to hear what we're provided and it's always one-sided.
Pinaki Kathiari (08:02)
There's a key in what you said there ⁓ because all of this kind of goes into like mismanaged expectations. And then you have this kind of client vendor relationship. And whenever you have that type of relationship, there's some kind of wall between you guys. And that's, there's a power wall, right? Like a power struggle, because at any given point, like the client is paying you almost similar to a boss, right? And what's important is to kind of get to the understanding.
from their side, because you already kind of have your understanding. So a lot of times what I do in that situation is because I'm frustrated and I'm like, damn, I wish I could just tell them that you're being like, or, or et cetera, et cetera. And I try to turn that around into, all right, let me understand. yeah, like, you know, like I said to a client, not that they were directed at me, I
But it was just like, yeah, you seem really angry and upset in that meeting. Did something happen? Can we talk about that? What was the core of that? And at times, I've even called clients back and was like, hey, I realized that I was pushing a little bit hard on this topic because I believe in it. But you know what? didn't mean for push too hard. So at any given step, you're kind of doing things to make sure that the relationship is safe. That's the first thing.
and trying to do that. I think like the question though of like the original question is walking away from a toxic client equal defeat. And I don't think it's defeat. I think that you can and should walk away from a relationship that is like really harming you. But you also have to understand what is your role in that relationship and that toxicity. I think you should probably refer back to that, why does it feel so wrong episode with Chuck Gose because it is something that
could be between you that you have to work out, not necessarily that they are the evil person. You know what mean?
Chris Lee (10:02)
Yeah, and I just.
Bree Bartos (10:03)
Hmm.
Chuck Gose (10:04)
I think what
often we need to think about is there's the client, which is this entity. And then there's the person you're dealing with. And sometimes we don't understand often the pressures that that person is under from people around them or above them, that they might be reacting to those pressures because that's being funneled through them to you. It's not actually about them. It's about the pressures that they are feeling.
Pinaki Kathiari (10:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. In fact, I have heard stories. We've had clients call us almost saying the same thing about other people that they work with in tiers and whatnot. And it's not about our work or stuff like that. It's just the pressures of the work, especially the higher up you get. ⁓ it seems like there is, ⁓ when an organization has that type of pressure and leadership kind of
is okay with that type of pressure, then expects that type of pressure, then that pressure kind of moves in all directions. And you start to realize that this is the type of environment that I start to live in. You've had it for, I suppose, like seven weeks, this person, the client might've had it for seven years, used to it now. Meanwhile, you're kind of onboarding into this level of pressure that you're not used to. But I think that has to be confronted like, hey, I'm not used to this type of pressure. And I have to ask,
Am I the right person for this work with you? ⁓
Chuck Gose (11:33)
And Chris,
I'm going let you go first, but I want to share this quick story that speaking about the dynamics that are happening at the client. So I had this one client working with one-on-one directly with us, man, laughing on the calls, accomplishing all the goals, doing projects amazing. The next call, this person's boss gets on the phone with us and it's like a different person.
on there. She's being demanding. She's trying to exert authority over this. And then there's this weird dynamic between her and the VP that's on the call. And I'm like, this is a different person than I've known her with. She was fracturing her relationships to show one-on-one with us was one thing, but to show to her manager that she was in charge of this and she was getting out of it all she could. I was like, this is a dynamic that is not going to work long-term. It was almost bipolar in some sense.
Pinaki Kathiari (12:24)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (12:28)
Yeah, and ultimately, I think what we're talking about here is really about the dynamic of relationships in general, and ⁓ what are the forces behind why people behave the way that they behave. And I completely agree with you on all points, Chuck, and your initial point about
You know, we're looking at this Reddit thread and we only see one side of the story. I think it's a really important idea to keep in mind here, which is what pressures are the client facing? But, you know, back to, uh, you know, the initial point, which is, I have to deal with this person moving forward? And I agree with you, Pinaki that, uh, no, you don't have to, there's no shame at all in terms of walking away from a client, but
before that happens, I think it's really important. And this is where we talk about real communication. This to me is big C communication where you're giving yourself an opportunity instead of just taking it and then just saying, you know what, I give up, I throw my hands up, I'm walking away. And I didn't really get that sense in this thread free that.
you know, this person is taking the appropriate steps to have a proper conversation. And I don't think this conversation happens over email. I think it's one of these conversations that you have in person to just be, give yourself a chance to be camped. Cause it's not like it's going to improve if you don't do this and you just hope it's going to get better one day. There's something going on with this, this relationship. And so I do think it's important that
Bree Bartos (13:40)
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (13:41)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Lee (13:57)
⁓ real communication happens and that you sort of give yourself an opportunity to explain where you're sitting, which is I think you deserve that opportunity to have that conversation. And then I think that gives you at least a chance to see if you can rehabilitate this, the nature and the dynamic of this relationship.
Bree Bartos (14:18)
I-
Chuck Gose (14:18)
I
don't get the sense that maybe I'm reading between the lines here a bit, that this consultant actually wants this to work. I'm getting the sense that they've already essentially bailed on it. It's like your friend that's in that bad relationship and like they won't leave, but they just, all they do is complain about it. But like they really don't want to turn it around. They don't want to go to therapy. They don't want to address the issues. Like I get the sense they've already quit and they're just looking for validation from others to prove that.
Pinaki Kathiari (14:27)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (14:28)
Ahem.
Pinaki Kathiari (14:41)
Yeah.
Chuck Gose (14:47)
it's worth leaving.
Bree Bartos (14:49)
Yeah, I agree and I, you, there was a couple of different ideas that popped in my head in your initial reply as well, Chuck, about not knowing the other side of things. And I think one, if they do wanna keep working, they need to have some type of, like, they need to have a realignment meeting. They need to go back and have a discovery meeting, because if all of their expectations and what they want, it keeps being misaligned, then you need to go back to the drawing board. But they also say,
Pinaki Kathiari (15:08)
Mm-hmm.
Bree Bartos (15:18)
I don't want to escalate prematurely to the lead client partner. Well, it's only been seven weeks and you're this miserable. I think you need to escalate it to the partner. I understand the partner has been a bit aloof and is out of office currently, but if it's so bad where you are waking up every day with a pit in your stomach and there is a option of escalating it and having someone else deal with it, I think we should take that option. ⁓
Pinaki Kathiari (15:24)
Yeah.
Bree Bartos (15:48)
But I also want to add to your point, Chuck, a month after they posted this, they posted on Reddit that they were trying to decide between two job offers and where to move to. So.
Chris Lee (15:59)
That's a great
point.
Bree Bartos (16:03)
I think you were spot on.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:03)
The life, the human experience is awesome.
Chuck Gose (16:07)
I rest my case.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:08)
Yeah, it goes to show you this is the word how people leave because like, yeah, like I understand it because I've been in situations in high pressure and you have that pit in the stomach. That is the beginning of that is not the beginning of burnout. That is burnout, right? You're creating it's manifesting in physical symptoms, right? So, yeah, I think for anybody who's going through it because it's going to happen and it's going to keep happening, happening again, I think to overall a point is that, yeah,
Bree Bartos (16:23)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Pinaki Kathiari (16:38)
I think raising the flag early is important. Even if it's, you could escalate it to like the client partner or whatnot, but be like, hey, I just need to inform you of this. Maybe it's not something, let's just keep an eye on it because you should never be feeling alone in your consultancy, I think. And so someone should have your back and at some point be able to draw lines in the sand and say, all right, here's where we have to escalate it to this person. Here's where I got to talk.
And when you have to talk to the client, I always say like, try to get them out of a meeting setting, try to get it one-on-one because like Chuck said, when you introduce someone else, a whole other ego thing kind of gets involved in the mix. So you don't really get to talk or really get to meet as humans when there's a bunch of other folks in the room, especially when there's a conversation like this.
Chris Lee (17:24)
I also, yeah, and I really liked
what ⁓ Chuck, you said, again, just there's so many factors that might be impacting this dynamic that we're not aware of, but I loved what you said about, you know, this person might be sort of like Jekyll and Hyde when their boss is on the line, all of a sudden they're, ⁓ you know, the most positive shining light in the room. And ⁓ I think that's that.
there could be other things that are impacting this person ⁓ in a way that ⁓ doesn't give them the freedom or the ability to behave the way that they would normally do, or they might check themselves depending on who's in the room at the time. So I think there's just so many interesting things and we only see that one side of the story, but at the same time, if we take it at face value, I feel like ⁓ there's steps that should be taken.
to be clear and transparent in terms of what's going on ⁓ before hastily doing what Bree you talked about, which is I'm out, I'm leaving. I'm gonna be finding a new job. I can't stand this anymore. And I think there is definitely a possibility that the problem might be the original poster as much as it is the client.
Bree Bartos (18:33)
Hahaha ⁓
My, I don't know if it's toxic of me to think this way, but I really want to know how the dynamic between the client and the consultancy is now that OP is gone. Like I'm just a little curious about how that relationship is now.
Pinaki Kathiari (18:58)
Yeah, if anybody wants to like, you know, follow up with us, I'd love to hear myself.
I think in a way, kind of final thing on that is like a good way to kind of broach the core of that type of relationship if anyone is going through it, is to please start the conversation or invoke a conversation that asks the question, are we the right consultancy for you? And let's just talk about it because maybe we better off if we are or not.
At the end of the day, I've always found that it's the relationships that you have with people that last longer than projects and companies and things like that as well.
Chuck Gose (19:36)
Well, not only are you the right consultants, are we the right consultancy for you? Are you the right client for us? I think both of those questions and there again, it's like if we're talking about a relationship, people want to be the one to do the breakup. They don't want to be the one broken up with. So yeah. It's not.
Chris Lee (19:42)
Yeah, 100%. I love that.
Pinaki Kathiari (19:43)
Yeah. Yeah.
That's right. That's exactly right.
Chris Lee (19:54)
And at the end, it could also be
an individual issue as well. Again, it might not be the agency, it might not be the client as an entity, but there could be just a chemistry issue at an individual level. There's just so many things. We just don't really know. But just to wrap this up. ⁓
Chuck Gose (20:13)
Well, we
do know, we do know they're not having a good time. Chris, we do know that. We do know that.
Chris Lee (20:16)
Yes, we definitely know that we Chuck, if anyone knows what a good
Pinaki Kathiari (20:17)
Now I'll have a good time.
Bree Bartos (20:17)
Yeah, well, and they're gone.
Pinaki Kathiari (20:20)
Yes,
they are. They said peace.
Chris Lee (20:22)
time looks like, it's Chuck Gose just to wrap things up, Chuck, I just want to thank you so much. This was a ton of fun. Thank you so much for joining us today. ⁓ but before we wrap up, I want to, I mentioned at the top that, you co-host, this great podcast frequency Chuck, where, can our listeners hear? Where can they find you or listen to?
Chuck Gose (20:25)
I'm looking around.
Pinaki Kathiari (20:28)
Yeah.
Chris Lee (20:46)
the podcast.
Chuck Gose (20:49)
Yep, absolutely. So you can find Frequency wherever you listen to podcasts, including where you're listening to this fine podcast, as well on YouTube. So I co-host that with Jenni Field. We talk about all things HR, workplace, comms, employee experience. We produce weekly episodes that come out every Monday. So you'll find us there.
Pinaki Kathiari (21:07)
Fantastic. And hey, thank you to all of our listeners tuning in. At this week's ⁓ Between the Seasons, that's what BTS stands for, for any of those who didn't get it yet, but this week's Between the Seasons episode of Human at Work I hope you enjoyed this conversation. I hope it helped ⁓ deal with some of the pressures that you have at work. And ⁓ please be sure to follow and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris Lee (21:16)
Yeah.
100%. And
don't forget after you do that and after you check out frequency on YouTube, ⁓ join us next week. We're going to have another short ⁓ and always honest conversation about the human side of work. So we'll see you in a week.
Pinaki Kathiari (21:48)
See y'all, be well.