Living authentically and forging family harmony feat. Jack Lam

This week, Jack Lam (they/them) discusses how being a Malaysian Chinese immigrant has impacted them, including struggling to release shame and fear so they could name and embrace their genderqueer identity after coming to the United States. In this episode, you will learn 1. How their gender expression becomes a powerful tool for visibility 2. When allyship begins to become performative and how to avoid it 3. Why we need to normalize talking about mental health and getting support

🎙️ Connect with Jack:

• Instagram (select posts included below)
  1. To be an immigrant
  2. When you’re part of the community
  3. Questions to a genderqueer person
  4. For when you want it all to end

💻 Sources and resources:

• Coming Out: Living Authentically as LGBTQ Asian and Pacific Islander Americans | The National Queer Asian Pacific Islander Alliance and HRC Foundation

📣 Announcements:

• Love is in the air! 😍 Or is it? Charlie's personals ad for their friend Kaitlyn may have scared you away 😅 but if it hasn’t, go check out Kaitlyn on Instagram
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Host Charlie Ocean, MSW (they/them), has a background in LGBTQ+ training, community organizing, and technology. Guest episodes feature at least one allyship tip, including tailored questions based on the guests' unique intersecting identities. You can follow Charlie on ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Substack. *You will hear Charlie's former name in this episode and previous ones.*

Creators & Guests

Host

Charlie Ocean, MSW

Pronouns: they/them. Neuroqueer LGBTQ+ speaker, trainer, consultant, podcaster, writer...

Guest

Jack Lam

"A big part of my depression in my teen years was due to the shame that I felt like if I were to ever come out or be open about my sexuality, that it would bring so much shame to my parents. That was the first concern I had. I remember thinking the most important thing is to save face for my family. And if I were to do this, it would crush my parents."

What is Allyship is a Verb?

People want to do better, but they don’t always know how. Allyship is a Verb is a 4x award-nominated (and now award-winning!) podcast featuring conversations with LGBTQ+ community members of various lived experiences and backgrounds who share their stories and an allyship tip. The host is a silly, warm human who offers self-reflection questions and voiceovers to help deepen the learning for listeners. The host is Charlie Ocean, MSW (they/them), who has a background in LGBTQ+ education, community organizing, and social work.

[00:00:00] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, hello there. I'm Chris Angel, and my pronouns are they/ them. Welcome to Allyship is a Verb, a podcast for people practicing allyship for the LGBTQ+ community and beyond!

[00:00:26] Jack Lam: Hey, my name is Jack Lam and I use they/them pronouns.

[00:00:30] Chris Angel Murphy: We're gonna kick things off with another shoutout. Shoutout to Sarah Gilbert! (voice echos) Thank you for supporting the Indiegogo campaign to help produce this season and take the podcast on tour. I appreciate you, friend.

I met Jack back when I was still living in Los Angeles. They interned and later volunteered for a while at one of my previous non profit jobs. They still live in LA and have been working as a therapist for quite a while now. I've also found them to be a kind, compassionate soul who is incredibly wise. Which is why I've wanted them on the podcast for a long time. (laughs) They're also super fashionable, of which I am not, and there is evidence of this on their Instagram.

We recorded this episode on November 30th, 2022. Yes, it's been a while now, but for context, the Club Q shooting had occurred only 11 days prior to that, which impacts the episode. We also discuss depression and suicide ideation, both including their experiences with it, and normalizing it, period. While we don't go into nitty gritty specifics, please take care of yourself how you may need to while listening.

Jack's story is incredibly touching, and I imagine many people may resonate with different parts of their story. Please know that I wanted to release this episode much sooner than now. However, two things occurred. Number one, I was only an hour away from the Club Q shooting, since I now live in Denver, Colorado. And, number two, there was a major glitch with the software I used to record this episode, so it was almost lost entirely. So, it's just taken some time to make sure that I could do this episode justice in both respects.

And now, it's time for three self-reflection questions to ponder during the episode. Be sure to stick around after for three more.

1. Am I able to meet people at intersections that are important to me?

2. What communities do I have access to thanks to the internet that I wouldn't otherwise?

3. What parts of myself do I want people to see or experience the most? Are there spaces I can reveal those?

And now, the conversation.

I feel like you have such a great podcast voice; (Jack Laughs) it's very soothing. And you run a podcast.

[00:03:14] Jack Lam: Um, not anymore. (Chris Angel gasps) I used to for my work, but I passed it on to another co-worker. (laughs)

[00:03:20] Chris Angel Murphy: Okay, yeah, you do a lot, so that's good. I won't ask you much more about that, but you really do have a voice for podcasting, so.

[00:03:29] Jack Lam: Thank you.

[00:03:30] Chris Angel Murphy: You're so welcome. You are a genderqueer, Malaysian Chinese, immigrant. What do those intersections mean to you?

[00:03:44] Jack Lam: I think for a long time, each of those things have meant, unfortunately, how isolated I am from the world and what seems like the mainstream community. But I think more and more - so recently, it's been more of, I guess embracing this niche and celebrating the uniqueness of my story. I think what that has meant for me is that it's difficult to find people like me anywhere I go, but when I do, it's a lot more precious. And I think that's where I really cherish, and I really appreciate all those intersections, also, in ways that allow me to relate to a lot of different people in a lot of different ways.

[00:04:31] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about those communities - have you been able to stumble upon any, or have you had to create any yourself, or all of the above?

[00:04:42] Jack Lam: All of the above, really. I think, for my own circles, I do tend to seek out more queer folks, immigrants, Asian folks - I think all of that really helps me feel seen and understood in different aspects of my life and helped me kind of have more, I guess, of a lens of different experiences in the community.

On the other hand, it's also nice to be able to stumble upon (laughs) - I think just because of social media, and I post a lot and I have some presence, some people who share a lot of my identities tend to reach out. I'm especially super, I guess my heart is very warm when like queer Malaysian folks tend to reach out, whether they're in Malaysia or they're in other parts of the world, or they're planning to come to America.

All of that really makes me feel like, "Aww." I, you know, I grew up thinking, I guess, feeling like I'm the only one, because it's so taboo in Malaysia to be queer and everything is so under wrapes still that whenever I see something like that pop up, it really reminds me - maybe like an inner child thing of like, "Oh, you're not alone." Like, there were people like you and there are going to be people like you and they'll always be.

[00:06:06] Chris Angel Murphy: Absolutely. You know, and of course you're from and carrying other identities as well, even outside of the ones we'll be chatting through today. Do you feel like there are certain ones you have to either compartmentalize or hide away in certain spaces?

I guess

[00:06:29] Jack Lam: so. I mean, I think it definitely, I think of almost like a, you know, those like DJ modulator things (Chris Angel laughs) with the different dials. (laughs) They can dial up and dial down. It's kind of tapping into different experiences, depending on the circles I'm in. I'm thinking about, you know, for example, when I'm with my family or family friends, that's definitely where more of my maybe Malaysian, Malaysianite, Chinese, and immigrant kind of experiences come out, (laughs) versus when I'm in queer circles.

And again, like, those don't tend to be huge populations, right, because the overlap is not that much. Then that's where, like, my queer identities tend to come out a little bit more, more so than my immigrant identities, because you know, I mean, I like having a wide range of experiences and friends to kind of talk to. But I think intentionally hiding my identities has not felt inhibiting in the ways that it had before.

It's more so now, like, I am who I am and I know what to say and how to kind of relate and connect to people in the space. And if they were to kind of breach on my other identities and try to talk about that, I'll be more assertive. (laughs) You know, it's not like I'm trying to hide it away. It's more so like, well, I don't want you to talk about things that you don't know what you're talking about, because that's going to offend me and then I'm going to have to say something and it's going to be uncomfortable for both of us, so - (laughs)

[00:08:03] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, well, an emotional labor for you, so of course. I'm a visual person so I love visualizing this DJ equipment. And I guess pushing all those to like a hundred percent all those modules and everything you're talking about, all those buttons, I have no idea I just know (makes DJ scratching sound) you know like scratching - and I can't do it, but (laughs) I've tried, it was one of my hyper focuses, thank you ADHD, but did not work out - but like you know, yeah all the volumes and stuff.

Are there certain identities that, assuming no repercussions, like having to deal with backlash, things like that, are there any identities that you wish you could have just be the loudest, or is that not the goal for you? I guess, yeah, now I'm just like leaning hard into this visualization that you've given me.

[00:08:52] Jack Lam: No, I don't necessarily think that there's one particular one that I'd be - I'd like to be the loudest. I think it depends on the context.

The one that comes to mind immediately is, you know, I am in America and in a lot of the times I'm in spaces that are majority American. So in those situations - especially, you know, I think immigration tends to come up as a topic very often for conversation. So especially when I'm with Americans (laughs) and when the topic of immigration comes up and people are talking about immigrants, that's when like, that dial is like, I'm trying to like push it up because I'm like, "You know what? Like, watch what you say." (laughs)

I think part of it is that, you know, oftentimes the immigrant discussion is about what should be done, whether they should be here or not, and not very much about, well, what is the process? What is the experience of someone going through something like this? Or what are they considering?

So it's more so about like, "Oh, the country versus like the people." Which in those senses, it makes me feel like, "Oh, I need to really talk about this identity because I want to humanize this experience." Right, this is not a pie in the sky kind of thing that doesn't affect people in the room.

[00:10:14] Chris Angel Murphy: There's a resource put together by the National Queer Asian Pacific Islander Alliance and HRC Foundation. It's called "Coming Out: Living Authentically as LGBTQ Asian and Pacific Islander Americans." One of the first statements it makes is, "Coming out is a lifelong process that can require a different approach because of cultural norms or traditions that emphasize duty to family and community. This can make the coming out process more complex to navigate."

So, outside of the thinking that we don't owe anyone our "coming out" - not everyone uses that language anymore, some people call it "inviting in," etc. That alone, you know, this emphasis of duty to family and community, how does that resonate with you in your story?

[00:11:06] Jack Lam: I think it definitely resonates. When I think about my experiences with coming out, I think of it as something that I felt like I needed to do for a very, very long time.

A lot of the shame and fear I felt growing up was around this idea that when I do come out to my family - not an "if" - when I do come out to my family, I'm going to be so ostracized and rejected. And because of that shame, I struggled with a lot of suicidal ideation.

But more so now, talking about, you know, the concepts that you've mentioned, I don't feel the pressure to come out to my parents or my extended family. I think I'm more focused on living my own authentic life, and they can make whatever judgments (laughs) that they would like to. They can ask, and I'll be honest. But really, I don't really feel the need to explain or try to convince anyone in my family about how I experience my gender or sexuality, right. I think it is, as you said earlier, a lot of emotional labor.

I would rather, I think, focus on what connects us, than what divides us, because when it comes to family, that's something that I really, really cherish. And it's kind of this value conflict, right, do I live fully authentically, or do I preserve the peace and harmony in my family?

And to use that DJ analogy again, it's kind of like instead of thinking of pushing both dials all the way up, it's kind of finding the balance between the dials that make me feel comfortable, or as comfortable as I can be. Because ultimately, I don't owe anyone anything; I owe it to myself to feel comfortable and authentic and honor my own experience.

[00:13:17] Chris Angel Murphy: How did you get to that place of "this is how I'm going to approach this moving forward"? Like, where did this shift occur from "I am going to do this thing, I'm going to share this with my family" to "I'm going to live my life and if they have questions for me, I'll answer it, though I'm just going to spend my energy there instead." Like what questions did you ask yourself? Or I guess what, like, conversations did you have with people, or yeah, just what work did you do to get to that point? Especially, I guess, to know that that was the right move for you, specifically.

[00:13:51] Jack Lam: A lot of therapy, first of all. (laughs)

[00:13:52] Chris Angel Murphy: I had a feeling. (laughs)

[00:13:56] Jack Lam: And a lot of conversations with my sibling. So I'm really grateful because my elder sibling is also queer, and we talk a lot about, kind of, our experiences being in this family. Especially for the longest time we didn't know, or we didn't even openly talk to each other about being queer.

We learned from each other a lot, right? I think he has a different experience with the family than I do, even though we both grew up in it. So, I think he was the one who was more of the mind that, you know, just tell them what they want to hear so that you don't need to answer more questions than you feel comfortable.

Because at the end of the day, with my parents, and I assume most of my family, is that they want to know that you're going to be okay. Right? A lot of the questions that come out of my parents is, like, maybe ignorance, in a way, of contemporary LGBTQ stuff. And I don't blame them for that. I think a lot of it, the ignorance that comes out of it, is kind of concern and worry about what they've seen, right, or what they know and what they've heard, which is maybe not a lot, and maybe very harmful.

Because we know there's a lot of harmful narratives around LGBTQ people (laughs) here and throughout the world. So that has really worked for me in the sense of, I don't feel like I'm lying to my parents, because at the end of the day, I am okay. I do have things that I am worried about when it comes to my identity, you know, things like the Club Q shooting, you know, I experienced that very deeply. I still think and talk about it more so with my friends.

And, you know, do I wish my family would understand? Maybe, but not really, because what would that change? I think they still support me; they still tell me they love me and appreciate me. And even though they don't fully understand my experience, I think it's okay and they don't need to, as long as they're not openly critiquing (laughs) or inserting their thoughts where I don't want them to be. So I think it's kind of like respecting boundaries without even actually using those terms.

[00:16:24] Chris Angel Murphy: So it sounds like talking with your older sibling, like those conversations were pretty instrumental in you coming to this realization and decision for yourself.

[00:16:36] Jack Lam: Yeah. I think I'm glad to have a role model in my life who is so inspirational to me.

And not only just my brother, but even as a therapist who - I learn a lot from my clients, because a lot of my clients are queer and Asian as well. And we're all kind of going through this together, right. There's not a lot of blueprint as to how to navigate these family dynamics while being very queer. Especially when the messaging has for the longest time been, "Come out, come out, you need to come out, you need to come out to feel better. Otherwise you're living in shame." When in reality that's not the case, right.

For a lot of us, coming out can mean losing that connection, losing support financially, emotionally, or even a place to feel like we belong, because there's not a lot of us out here. And understanding that values do conflict, you don't have to choose one over the other completely, it's more so, again, like the modulating of the dials (laughs) to find really what feels the most comfortable for you and how you want to live your life.

[00:17:50] Chris Angel Murphy: The resource that I mentioned earlier, it goes on to say that, "Growing up amid these significant sacrifices, API American youth often feel indebted to their parents. They fear disappointing their parents and will avoid doing anything that might humiliate them or bring shame upon the family among the wider community. Especially in cultures that stress familial duty or conformity, LGBTQ, API youth can carry a weight of expectations rooted in traditions that define success through rigid gendered norms. This sense of duty may be passed along to future generations and be reinforced across communities. "

is that something that's echoed in the conversations that you have with your clients that are also at those intersections?

[00:18:43] Jack Lam: Yeah, I think so. I'm really thinking, as you were reading that passage, I was like, Oh my god! Who dug into my life story?" Because (laughs) that was exactly what I experienced as an LGBTQ youth when I was youthful myself. (laughs)

[00:19:02] Chris Angel Murphy: Well, let's talk about both. It was actually originally for you, but then when you mentioned about your clients, I was like, "let's pivot." Yeah.

[00:19:10] Jack Lam: I think a lot of my clients that I work with now are more adults, so they may have also struggled with this, and they actually, interestingly, may have reached very different conclusions than I have, right. Which I think then goes back to this idea of like, we're kind of in this together and figuring out what works, you know, for us individually and also to an extent on a community level, because there are similarities in kind of the cultural values and expectations that we grew up in.

For me, thinking about that passage, I did have a lot of shame growing up queer in my family as a young teen. I didn't conform to a lot of the expectations of gender. And at the time I didn't really understand gender as much as I did sexuality, so it was more so just shame around being a gay man; but what came with that was a lot of the gender things too, of really enjoying what was quote unquote "girls sports" or "girls activities", being more interested in female artists, pop girlies, (laughs) always picking the girl characters in like games, (laughs) little things like that.

And a big part of my depression in my teen years was due to the shame that I felt like if I were to ever come out or be open about my sexuality, that it would bring so much shame to my parents. That was the first concern I had. I remember thinking the most important thing is to save face for my family. And if I were to do this, it would crush my parents. Because not only will they think they failed as parents, everyone else around them and the larger family would also feel like there was something wrong with them or it was really shameful for our family.

So, in my head when I was suicidal in those years, it was almost out of a deep love and respect for my parents. Because it was like, if I really truly loved them and respected them, then I would save them from that lifelong shame. And I could take my own life. And they might be sad, but that passes, versus being ostracized or ridiculed for having a queer child, if I continue living, that's as long as I live.

[00:21:39] Chris Angel Murphy: I'm curious about, especially because you've mentioned depression, you've mentioned suicide ideation, what kind of messages did you get about mental health from your family?

[00:21:55] Jack Lam: None. (laughs)

[00:21:56] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah?

[00:21:57] Jack Lam: I mean, I don't think I've ever heard of the term "mental health." I don't think we were ever talked about mental health. We barely identified feelings and emotions, so - yeah, definitely not really anything.

I think in terms of when I first experienced the depression, caused by the deep shame, I just thought something was wrong with me. It's very related to I was already thinking something was wrong with me for being queer, so I also assumed that I was just born wrong, kind of thing. Like, "Oh, I'm not how other people are." This is just another way that I'm different, and wrong, and faulty, and again, it kind of goes back to, "Well, then, better to just kill yourself, really."

[00:22:51] Chris Angel Murphy: Was that a really loud voice that was in your head?

[00:22:55] Jack Lam: It was. It was every morning and every night. School was a distraction, so I think that's partially why I did really, really well in school, even though I was really severely depressed, because those were the only times when I could escape those voices, in a sense. Because I wasn't home. And in the morning when I woke up, and every night before I went to bed, I would be completely paralyzed sometimes by those thoughts; crying until I wouldn't have any tears anymore.

I remember going to bed at one point, like, wishing every single night that I'd wake up "okay." And what "okay" meant at the time was like, straight, not depressed, motivated, a model child, all the things that I was not, I guess.

[00:23:47] Chris Angel Murphy: You sharing that, and certainly we just had in Colorado Springs the Club Q shooting, you've also just mentioned that during our conversation so far today, you actually wrote a post about it. And you opened it with, "I used to be so sure that if given the choice, I'd choose to be queer. I'm not so sure that's always true for me anymore."

Can you share more about that post, and what you want people to take away from it, and why you felt moved to share those thoughts?

[00:24:23] Jack Lam: Yeah, um, I'm tearing up. (laughs) I'm thinking about this because, you know, I think about when I was suicidal in my teen years and how much shame there was about being queer, and how long (sighs) it took to undo that, to finally feel proud of myself for being queer instead of feeling like that was something that was wrong with me.

I think there is also a very strong sentiment in pride, right, in the way that we even chose the word "pride" for the month that we celebrate LGBTQ history and heritage, or culture. There's a lot of pressure to always be proud. I think to me, being proud, in the way that pride displays, felt very, like, "Be unapologetically you, always be your full, true, authentic self."

And I love the idea. I love how we can still find so much pride and joy, but it's also, in a way, almost a fantasy, right. It's the imagination of a world where that is always okay all the time. When in reality, things like this happen a lot, not just here, but worldwide. The reality that it is really painful to grow up queer in this world, and it's continually painful because we see the violence that our community faces.

And so waking up that day on Trans Day of Remembrance, too -

[00:26:11] Chris Angel Murphy: That definitely made it hurt more.

[00:26:14] Jack Lam: Yeah.

[00:26:15] Chris Angel Murphy: That felt intentional.

[00:26:17] Jack Lam: Yeah. I definitely felt, (sighs) I don't know, like a strong sense of, "When will it end?" You know, in the same way that maybe in certain ways I used to think about when I was suicidal, right, "When will it end?" But this time, you know, through that journey, it's not so much of "when will my life end," but more so "when will the world stop treating us like this?"

Because it's not fun to be treated like this. And it's also just the, it's just the expectation, I think, whenever you're in a marginalized or oppressed group that even though this is so crushing, most people still don't get it. Most people will sympathize, you know, send a loving message here and there, and then still expect you to go back into work and do as you would be doing.

[00:27:18] Chris Angel Murphy: Yeah, I remember when Pulse happened, I was working at the Trevor Project, and there was an anger that came up for me, because it felt like everyone else was going about their lives and those of us in the community were stuck. And I don't want to speak for everyone by any means. I know that the conversations I had with fellow employees and other people in the community, that's just how it felt.

It felt like people weren't really acknowledging that it had happened, and, cause it's so layered, even for me, waking up that morning and finding that out, like you said, there were just kinda like several things going on. It brought up all of the pain of Pulse, again, it stirred that up. It also horrified me because Club Q is an hour from where I live, south, and so naturally that, like, devastates our community. And I worried that yet again I'd be let down by people and not have people outside of our community once again, like, acknowledging our pain.

And again, the silence was so loud because. I intentionally reached out to other queer and trans people I felt close to, to check in and see how they were doing. And, you know, it wasn't until maybe later that day I heard from someone outside of the community. I heard from, like, I think two other people the next day, and then it was just the same silence.

And I just, you know, acknowledging there's been so much that's been going on, especially during the course of the pandemic, I feel like there's just been a lot of noise, there's been a lot of tragedies. I wonder if people just didn't know what to say, or that they were afraid of saying the wrong thing.

Because then you're also working with, I'm thinking of the perspective of, you know, people practicing allyship, which is all of us, I think, but like, "What if I say the wrong thing? I don't want to get canceled." And it's like, I just needed people to reach out and acknowledge that like, this hurts. And I thought maybe because this time I was in this state where it happened, it'd be different, but yeah, I was just, I was disappointed yet again.

And it's one of those things where it's like, yes, on one hand, I need to communicate what I need to people, and on the other, when I'm already in pain, I can't exactly articulate what I need. I need someone else to help me out and offer some things. And so, that really stung.

And I know for myself, I had an event later that night up in Boulder - which was like another 45 minutes north or so, or 30 or so minutes north driving - and I was being hired to speak and I was supposed to talk about self care. And I, I was just crying all day -

[00:30:25] Jack Lam: Jeeze.

[00:30:26] Chris Angel Murphy: And I didn't know what to write. And I had the extra pressure of being the last person to speak at the event - I considered not going. I just didn't even know if I could handle it. And I was supposed to have two events that day, (Jack laughs sympathetically) but one had to get rescheduled, you know, due to something else not related to that, and so - not related to the shooting - and yeah, I just, I really questioned if that was going to feel okay, because I didn't know anyone who was going to be there. I mean, there were just a lot of reasons to not go.

And then I remembered that, you know, an elder, it was a grandfather to me, you know, he said, "Be scared and do it anyway." That was the only thing that pushed me to keep going. Cause it's like, "Okay, I have to honor our elders. I'm in a position where I think I can do this, so I'm going to do this." And I'd already, honestly, before that even happened, I'd already had fears that there might be a shooting because that's just the world we live in now.

It feels like you could just be going to a movie, it could be anything; it doesn't even matter. But with the violence we've been seeing against drag performers and everything as of late, I just, I keep assuming it's only a matter of time before there's another event, and so why not that one? And so I was scared. I was scared of going; I went anyway.

I'm glad I did it, I'm glad I spoke, I got really nervous (laughs) because, you know, I think all of us were trans, you know, we had someone from state legislation, we had someone who was a poet, we, you know, we had these different people, different lived experiences, and, you know, I heard a lot of anger, and things like that, and that's not really how I wanted to approach it, so I was like, even worried that like, (laughs) I wouldn't be "trans" enough, or that I wouldn't say the right things.

And I don't know, I guess what finally helped me to write the speech was just thinking about what I would have maybe wanted to hear, like if I were sitting in the audience. It was still really hard, but I have to say that I'm really glad I pushed through that, because it offered me some healing. I didn't think, again, for all the reasons I've already mentioned, that I would get any, at all, that wasn't my motivation for going, but I think just, I forget the power of being with community, because it'd been so long because of COVID, especially that was my first in-person engagement.

I've, you know, been keeping everything online this whole time, and it helped. It helped a lot to be there. And, yeah, that heaviness, it was a lot. I guess I'm glad that, you know, all of us were sort of holding that, so that it wasn't falling on any one person. Because I think for me, sometimes I forget that other people are in this too.

[00:32:57] Jack Lam: Yeah.

[00:32:57] Chris Angel Murphy: Because sometimes it feels like I'm the only one who cares, especially when, again, it comes back to that silence I was mentioning. It's like, "Oh, I'm the only one carrying this." Even though it's not true, it feels like that, and that's, that's hard, it's hard to keep that sustainable.

[00:33:13] Jack Lam: Yeah. Oh, I think of how difficult that must have been for you, of having to make a speech on that day, in your own community. Yeah, I think it's interesting because life goes on, you know, for better and for worse. At the end of the day, I always think, too, that community is really everything we have.

[00:33:40] Chris Angel Murphy: I feel like the exhaustion also comes from we're always having to look after ourselves, holding space, organizing community events, raising funds for like the victims and the families of, and everything, like everything that I was seeing being done was by us. I'm sure other people were organizing, too. I'm not saying, like, no one else was doing anything either, but, like, overwhelmingly, it just feels like we're always having to support each other, and it's exhausting.

This shouldn't matter, but there's, like, a little voice in the back of my head wondering how many people showed up to the event just because of that event that occurred. How many people would have actually shown up had that not happened? And I don't know why that matters, but it does to me, and I'm trying to let it go, because people showed up, and that's important, and there's work to be done, but, yeah, I know, yeah, it just hits different.

[00:34:41] Jack Lam: Oh, I think it makes sense. I feel like, especially with organizing, and caring about issues. It almost feels very of-the-time, right. There's like, almost like trends that come and go, and in a lot of ways I feel like, again, for better or for worse, things like this do become quote unquote "viral," "trendy." I'm thinking about even like the "Asian hate crimes," (laughs) that being turned into like #StopAsianHate, and I was like, okay, "Well, thank you for that." (laughs) Like, sure.

[00:35:19] Chris Angel Murphy: Problem solved.

[00:35:20] Jack Lam: I know, I mean, thank you. Now you're just inundating me with all of the news of all the different hate crimes. So, I don't know if I feel better about it, but sure, do what you need to do to feel like you're doing something.

And I don't know, I mean, that's what I think of when you're thinking of the people who just showed up because of the event. It's like, yeah, do what you need to do to feel like you're doing something. And for me, I know where I stand, my value, and the kind of thing that I can do. And I would rather focus on what I'm doing than spend my energy trying to convince other people to do it. And I think that's very mirrored in the way that I lead my life with my family, right.

I like wearing quote unquote "more feminine" clothing, presenting more however, right, it doesn't really matter to me, and I'm gonna do that regardless of whether I'm not with my family or not, whether they're uncomfortable or not. Because I know what I bring when I do that; I feel comfortable. I feel like even though it's small, it's visibility.

Normalizing that this is okay, especially when I'm hanging out with my sister and my niece and they're walking around the churches with like other kids and stuff like that. I like it when the kids now like point or talk about it or give me a compliment because then I have the opportunity to be like, "Okay, well, this is normal." This is okay.

[00:37:04] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:06] Jack Lam: There's still that narrative, but now at least you've seen someone who is able to do this. And that's the same way I feel about activism and advocacy is, I don't want to spend my energy and time justifying or rationalizing why we deserve your time or sympathy or whatever. I want you to see that we are people. And we are people that can be happy. We're people that you can relate to, talk to, and this is happening to people. You know, there are people who think that this is a fad, this is, again, the pie in the sky analogy of, like, it doesn't affect - you know, it's like, you can discuss it, but I want you to think about the fact that, like, I don't want you to think about talking points, I want you to think about who we are.

I mean, at the end of the day, I think about my own suicidality and thinking of how much I wanted to leave this world. At this point, I've made the decision to stay, and every day I make the decision to stay. So, I gotta live it for me. I'm just gonna do what I feel good about. And I hope that, you know, when they see that, they're able to see that this is a person, this is someone that really lives their life in a way that is full. In a way that I want to and I would like to live my life.

[00:38:28] Chris Angel Murphy: Knowing that the shooting is something that impacts us on a personal level, what kind of things did you have to do in order to be able to hold space with your clients who it impacts as well? Like do the conversations change a bit? Did you come up with like how you might approach those conversations? Did you just show up and together you just sort of decided to see what would happen? Or how did you treat those conversations?

[00:38:58] Jack Lam: I think it was more of the latter of just like a mutual understanding that this is happening. I always start with grief when it comes to tragedies, normalizing that grief encompasses so many complex and conflicting feelings. That it's okay to not feel any of them or feel all of them. I think for me, the biggest thing when it comes to a lot of my queer clients is self compassion, right. Working on that piece and being able to accept who we are, celebrate our stories.

And so when it comes to things like this, I think my approach is always going to be whatever you feel or however you experience this is so valid. And then maybe, if you want to talk about it, we can talk about where that comes from; why it affects you in that way.

[00:39:59] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about those who are in the community, and suicide ideation may be floating around in their head, what are maybe some steps to work toward addressing that? Like, even just like the smallest of steps - if they are wanting to choose to be here every day, like you said, but for any reason, suicide ideation is popping up for them.

[00:40:32] Jack Lam: I think the first thing that I always say is that it's normal to have suicidal thoughts. We're human, and I think that what, what that means to me is we are wired to feel all the emotions that we do, and we're also wired to only be able to tolerate a certain amount of pain. When you're thinking about taking your own life, killing yourself, because you're experiencing an unbearable amount of pain. So it's normal to think about wanting to end that.

I guess the other thing I always say about suicide is that it is, in a way, a way to cope, right. When we think about coping skills, it's ways that we reduce our distress or emotional overwhelm or pain. And I think of sometimes suicide as a way of coping, right.

I think in that way, I hope it helps destigmatize the connotation that suicide is "wrong," it's "bad", it's "unhealthy," because it's just a natural, normal reaction to overwhelming pain, right. And every time we feel pain, we want to cope. So, right, some other people might have less lethal means of coping, like substance use or self harm. These are things that are still kind of harmful, but maybe not as harmful as suicide.

So it's kind of, for me, thinking about a way that we try to help ourselves cope in healthier and healthier ways, right. It's about, "No suicide. Yes journaling and yoga." (both laugh) how do we move? We know that suicide is what we're thinking of because we're in so much pain. How do we lessen the pain every day? Because it is painful to live in the world sometimes.

[00:42:35] Chris Angel Murphy: Thinking about being genderqueer, because we didn't really get a chance to explore that, you've shared with me that you've only socially transitioned - and for everyone listening, thinking about transition as being maybe legal transition, medical transition, social transition, like there's different types of transition. I think most people think about "the surgery," hormones and things like that.

What led you to decide that socially transitioning was for you? What kind of questions did you have to ask yourself? How did you decide that that was for you?

[00:43:17] Jack Lam: I think I've always known that I wasn't cisgender. I just never really had the language for it until I immigrated here.

Because as I said, right, I always thought it was just me being a gay man, associating, right, wanting to wear quote unquote "more feminine" things, or do things that girls usually do as opposed to things that the boys that I'd seen growing up do. So when I learned about it, I felt very validated. And like, wow, there are other people with similar experiences that I don't have to necessarily live in this "not enough," right.

Because I think that's essentially what being genderqueer to me personally means, is that I don't want to feel like I'm not, "insert gender here," enough, right? Like not a man, not enough of a man, not enough of a woman, not enough of a anything. Because to me, being genderqueer is just about not really caring about the gendered expectations that a lot of people have.

And how I came to that, I think there was a lot of shame in the beginning, especially as I was starting to ask myself the questions of, "Am I genderqueer?", "Am I nonbinary?" Because, and I've heard this said by one of my friends, I think, "Not feeling queer enough is probably like the queerest experience you can have." (both laugh)

So, I struggled with that shame for a while, and I was like, "Oh yeah, I think that's actually really funny, because a lot of queer people kind of also go through that process."

[00:44:55] Chris Angel Murphy: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:56] Jack Lam: And to me, it's kind of feeling comfortable socially transitioning because of that definition of genderqueer, that I kind of feel like fits best for me and my story. I think about being non binary as being expansive of the binary.

When I frame it that way, I think of, "Well, not enough of what?" right. Because you're just a speck in like a universe of like different genders. Whatever you are is you, and you may have people who will approximate or be close or can kind of really orbit around your definition of gender and where you lie in this giant galaxy, but you will always experience your story. You are your story. Nobody else can fully grasp, ever, everything that you've lived through and everything that you understand and see, because words are very limited.

So, live as much as you can being authentic to yourself. And when you're more comfortable with your story and I'm more comfortable with not having to feel like you belong in a category or fit a certain definition of what it means to be queer, then I think the more comfortable you are identifying as the gender you feel you are.

Because again, words are just attemps at it containing this experience.

[00:46:31] Chris Angel Murphy: What's one allyship tip you'd like everyone listening to consider?

[00:46:36] Jack Lam: Remind yourself of your own humanity. In a lot of ways, we try to be this ideal, perfect version of ourselves, right. Like, "I have to do this, I have to say this." That's when, like, performativity can come in, right, of like, "Oh, I'm doing this because I've been told to do this. I've been said to do this. I've heard that this is the right thing to do."

But, to me, if you really take the time to acknowledge that we are all human, including yourself, that we are flawed, we will never know everything. We can try to work towards our own fulfillment. We can try to work towards living our own life in a way that's loving, kind to ourselves. That's when it becomes almost like a no brainer or second nature to be kind to other people, because you recognize your own humanity in them.

[00:47:32] Chris Angel Murphy: Wow. Jack, thank you for your extreme patience in my getting this episode out, and for your generosity throughout the episode. I'm so proud to know you. To see how you have grown more and more into yourself over the years has been a huge honor, and I hope to continue to have the privilege to do so.

Here are the final three self-reflection questions to take with you.

4. Am I living an authentic life? If not, how come?

5. What does being proud mean to me?

6. What are some ways I embrace my own humanity? If I don't currently, what are some ways I could start?

Visit AllyshipIsAVerb.com for any resources and a full transcript of the episode.

And remember, sometimes allyship means reminding yourself of your own humanity.