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S6 EP22 | It's dangerous to go alone, especially when venturing into the Legend of Zelda. Luckily, David from Another Zelda Podcast is here for the annual crossover to help Jim and T.C.
Two screenwriters attempt to recreate, reimagine, or flat out fix, existing film franchises when 'the studio' demands...MORE FILMS! It's an exercise in creative thinking where they will challenge themselves to conceptualize, pitch, and craft a film based on the stipulations of a hypothetical Hollywood overlord. | Sixfive Media
Hello and welcome to the studio demands that an exercise in creative thinking where we will conceptualize, pitch, and craft a film or series based on the demands from one of you listeners acting as a hypothetical Hollywood overlord. Overlord. As professional screenwriters ourselves and massive cinephiles, we talk movies all the time.
Jim:All the time.
T.C.:And we'd like to believe that we could meet any demand thrown at us. We will be your screenwriters for this episode. I am TC DeWitts, and joining me as always is Jim, We Are Not Alone, Berzelik. Hello, Jim.
Jim:It's true. I saw UFO just last night.
T.C.:You did. UFO. See, I was wondering if you do you ever feel like you're being watched?
Jim:Constantly.
T.C.:Do you ever feel like there's a presence within your presence that's observing you?
Jim:I do.
T.C.:Yeah. Do how do you feel about guests?
Jim:Good.
T.C.:What about David Geisler of another Zelda podcast? And our six five media godfather, David.
David:I'm watching you, Jim.
T.C.:Oh, god. He's been here the whole time.
Jim:The whole time?
T.C.:He's he's always within our hearts.
David:This where you is this where you record? Do you record right here what I'm seeing on the screen?
Jim:Often.
T.C.:I love it. Yeah. Like, we the the space changed about a year ago. Actually, about a year ago today around this time, my apartment opened up for me and I was able to create, like, new spaces. And we started recording here because this table is just so conducive for, like, gaming and hanging out.
T.C.:I love it. It's so it's
David:it's so podcast y and I mean that as a compliment.
T.C.:Well, there's, like, a whole room that is we recorded the last couple episodes in that's devoted to this. But given the tech technological setup we needed for this, this was the the safest space that I felt most comfortable in creating.
Jim:So Also, we're we're kinda like cats. The the space that it has been custom made for us to do the activity, we don't wanna do there. We'd we'd rather be in the the cardboard box.
David:Yes. Of course.
T.C.:That's right. Jim does have a scratching post right in front of him.
Jim:I I do. I was
David:wondering what that was. I was I was thinking that's very pod caddy.
Jim:Yeah. Oh,
T.C.:pod caddy. I mean, great. Well, David, season six. Welcome back to our annual Oh
David:my gosh. I'm so happy to be here. And I'm I you know, I we are I am diving in deep. I haven't even received a clue as to what we might be talking about tonight yet, and that is very exciting.
T.C.:Well, the call out went to the listeners once again to give us demands. Obviously, we we take demands from people all over the world for anything. Actually, I'll move I'll move right into this. Yeah. Jim, David our listeners, give us demands from studios all over the world.
T.C.:And you listening right now, you can send us any demand you'd like, and we will have to meet them right here on the spot. And when we reach the end of the episode, if we've done our jobs, we will have met the demands, possibly exceeded it, and pitched a full script or story and story meeting those demands. And when we come to the end of a season, those demands could be what's greenlit by the listeners for our finale, which we voting will be up
David:Yep.
T.C.:When this It's
Jim:coming up. When this it's it's up.
T.C.:The the demands that we've we've narrowed it down to the nominees for the finale.
Jim:The race begins.
T.C.:Yes. Yeah. Oh, that was good. Yeah. And and David knowing David was gonna be on this year or this episode as we do every year, I did throw it out to listeners for demands specifically for our another Zelda podcast crossover.
David:We did. We've done a Zelda movie. We've done a Zelda game. We've done a Zelda TV show. And then we did the Zelda movie through the lens of like 1980.
T.C.:Mhmm. Mhmm. We did a multiverse Zelda in the vein of Into the Spider Verse. That's right. Yeah.
T.C.:So Yeah. So throwing it out to the listeners and getting us an AZB cross? A z p crossover.
David:No. A z b. That's our next that's our new show.
T.C.:Mhmm. Another Zelda box that we like to sit on and record.
David:Really? I I don't know. Because our testing shows that another zebra booty is really what people wanted.
Jim:Another zebra booty.
T.C.:Oh. See, you gotta chase the search
David:engine optimization. You just yeah. We've been listen. We've been AB testing on YouTube for for weeks and this is this is our next show, another zebra.
T.C.:Another selfie booty. Wow. Our listeners shipping up through the roof. Lot of lot of Zelda or zebra booty fans. Well, David, as you might know, for the past couple seasons now, we have been more or less curating the subject matter of our demands while still allowing ourselves to not know what the demand is until we pull it and read it live on the air, which is what we're about to do right now.
T.C.:Oh my gosh. This comes from Zachary at Castle Town Studios.
David:What? Okay.
T.C.:Hey, guys. A demand for your next AZP crossover. You've been exploring ways to expand the Zelda universe universe for years now, and it's always through the lens of Link, Zelda, and Ganon. Parenthetical here. Love Zelda 3,000, by the way.
T.C.:Thank you. That's my I think that's my favorite one.
David:Yeah. I rep So much fun
T.C.:doing Zelda nineteen ninety last year, but Zelda 3,000 is
Jim:favorite one. Yeah.
T.C.:Sorry. Zach, back to your demand here. But I'm interested in hearing a pitch for a Legend of Zelda without touching the mainline heroes. K. No Link, no Zelda, no Ganondorf.
T.C.:What I do want is something that feels freshly cinematic but rooted in the world's DNA. Magic, mystery, courage, and consequence. We're looking for a character driven film told through the eyes of someone small, overlooked, or forgotten. A stable hand from Lon Lon Ranch. A Kokiri who never got their ferry.
T.C.:A Gerudo in exile. A lonely Korok. Korok?
David:Korok. Yeah.
T.C.:A traveling mask merchant. Impossible route. You get the idea. Yeah. My demand is this, pitch a feature film centered on a minor or background figure or figures, something that could stand on its own as a fantasy adventure with heart, humor, and emotional weight while subtly expanding the mythology of Hyrule.
T.C.:Think Rogue One or Andor, the truth about Hyrule and humanity are now what can be discovered through them, question mark? Thank you. And hi, David.
David:Well, hello back. Okay. Okay. Is Thank you, Zachary. And, you know, as I was listening to that thank you so much, Zachary.
David:Yeah. That's that's an absolute treat. I love this request. At first, I was like, oh, okay. Cool.
David:Like a side character. But I think this is what I'm hearing from Zachary's request is, like, proper, maybe new characters almost. Like, you know, it wasn't it wasn't like, oh, well, you know, you know, I don't know. How about Malon or or you know, one of these like characters that we kinda know about, let's just flesh out a story for them. Like, we kinda spoke we've spoken in the past about like the concept of a a chic storyline or something that.
David:You know what I mean?
T.C.:Right. Right.
David:I think this is like, use the the Zelda universe and I I think this is more of an examination of the universe where where where could stories happen in the universe than even like which character. Because it feels like we might be making our own characters to some degree.
T.C.:Yeah. I think so. I seems to me that if we wanna draw from some of the characters in reference here, like a masked salesman, obviously, that's an actual character. Or the postman from know at least from Ocarina of Time has that.
Jim:Kevin Costner?
T.C.:Kevin Costner. That's right. Yeah. Aren't you
David:Yeah. They they mocaped Kevin Costner for the postman in Ocarina of Time. A lot of people don't know that, but
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But I yeah. I think that's what this is.
T.C.:You Evoking Rogue One is great. This is a fun idea to to just think, how to tell a story within this universe from any character. If Yeah.
David:If we queue off of Rogue One a little in that the what is what is what is a major, yeah, maybe catastrophic event that happens in a Zelda story or the Zelda universe or something like that and we rewind as to why and how or maybe that happened like the Death Star blowing up is kinda was the seed for Rogue One. You know what I mean? Right. Well, how do we get to there and then we kinda reverse it out. That's one way that that's my that's the first place my brain is going here with this idea.
David:And maybe there's well, maybe it is. Maybe it's like one bit what's the big event and how can we pull a story off of that to get there? I don't know. What are the two of you thinking as we kind of let this settle in?
Jim:I got ideas.
T.C.:Oh, Jim's got ideas. Woah.
Jim:Even though even though I I I'm pretty sure I know the least about Zelda here.
T.C.:Well, got David. I got ideas.
David:And you know, here's the thing. The thing that's always tricky with Zelda is that it's always like, well, which game? Because all the games are different timelines and universes. That
Jim:is true.
David:And sometimes when we start talking about this kind of stuff, I just we just kinda let it go a little bit more broad. Like, what are the general themes with most of the games we and kinda build off that. Think that's that's acceptable. Unless we like zero in and be like, no, breath of the wild. You know what I mean?
T.C.:Well, that's where your expertise is gonna come into place here because, yeah, Jim self admission here might be the least of knowledgeable of Zelda. I certainly have my knowledge, but it is limited. David, you're the default expert here. But I've become a
David:little bit an expert.
Jim:So my idea is is a a a a rogue or or something like that.
T.C.:I'm in. Oh, okay. What it does
Jim:Best Star Wars. So the Legend of Zelda is ages old. Right? Like like, if I understand right, it's because the cycle this cycle repeats. Mhmm.
David:Is that what it is? If you if you really follow, like, the the the timeline that that is a little timey wimey, but if you truly follow it, yeah, I mean, absolutely tens of thousands of years go from the start to the to the to tears of the kingdom. Great.
Jim:I I what comes to my mind is following a story of the old man in the cave that says, it's dangerous to go alone. Take this. Remind me, what does he give Link?
David:In the first game, he gives Link the sword. His first sword. Wooden sword. He gives Link wooden sword.
T.C.:What? That's in your mears. You have mustaches.
David:In Breath of the Wild, that moment is reimagined and he gives Link like a shovel or something, but it's kind of the same Okay. Same kind of thing. In the original game, he gives Link a sword because Miyamoto originally Link started with a sword. And it was actually a really really brilliant little piece of game design because they decided, well, wait, let's actually not give Link a sword and and very first screen, there's a cave. He'll go up into that cave, people naturally are gonna go to that weird black box and someone will give him a sword and that will inform the players, I almost said audience, that you're gonna be collecting things.
David:Like, that's one of the mechanics. Like, off the bat, a character can give you something, oh, I will be collecting items and they will be important to me. That's the impetus of old man. Mhmm.
Jim:So my idea is we follow the old man when he was a young man. Okay. He's he believes in this legend that the the not everyone believes in anymore because it's so old and and, oh, that that's that's just fairy tales for kids kind of stuff. And he's going out and he is sort of preliminarily mapping the world and finding things, basically proving the legend is true at the very least to himself even if no one believes in him. And he knows that soon because the the sign there's there's signs importance of the legend happening, that it's going to happen, and he wants to help the champion.
Jim:He wants to help, right, in in the legend link. He Yep. Yeah. He wants to help him. So he he is doing what he can.
Jim:When he's young, he he might imagine himself like, oh, there's this legend and maybe I'm the hero. Maybe I'll be caught as the hero. And it's through the through the arc, through the journey he finds out, no. It hasn't happened yet. I'm not going to be the hero.
Jim:But and and his arc is coming around to us being like, well, that's okay. No one no one's a hero alone. I will do what I can to pave the way.
T.C.:Yeah. I I that's you touched on something that I was like, okay. Now I I I can get on board with some potential in that where it's knowing the legend of the triforce, the triforce of courage, hope. What is it? Courage, power, and the Wisdom.
T.C.:Wisdom. Thank you. Knowing the the legend that has existed time and time again through centuries, feeling like the time is coming, believing if I make a sword, I could fulfill I could be the one who fulfills it. I could be the hero
David:Mhmm.
T.C.:And and somehow bestowed, like, I will fulfill the prophecy in one step or another
David:Mhmm.
T.C.:So that I get to be the hero. And believing that in his heart only to be proven wrong, that that certainly has some, Rogue One ish elements to it to be like, we're gonna do this knowing that our we are not the destined hero.
Jim:Mhmm.
David:It's But that there's some Oh. Something to the sword itself being wood. It's it's just wood wood sword is what you get at the beginning of that first game. And that's all this old man has to offer. There's never really a moment, certainly in the first game, where there's like other old men, so to speak.
David:It's the same sprite, but it's different colors, you know. They kind
Jim:of Mhmm.
David:Few of them appear in that first game for the Nintendo Entertainment System. But but really, that is that is the first thing that happens in the game and he gives a wood sword. That's And like a wooden sword? That's not even you you might as have a baseball bat.
Jim:Know? Do you have an idea of how many old men there are?
David:Yeah. I do. I could probably research it, but I think there's like maybe a solid five.
T.C.:In in that original game or
David:original. The old man trope is kind of reimagined in each game for different in different ways. Sure. But let me Google it real quick as we're talking
Jim:top of my head, this could be an ensemble thing. With with maybe one being central to the group, then almost the leader of of them. What if all of these old men were young together and they all tried to, like, well, we wanna save the world. We're gonna do this. And so it's their adventure across Hyrule trying to trying to to do what they can to save it, to tame it, to to find the secret places, and to and and all that stuff.
Jim:And they even through their journeys, they maybe they start with well equipped or maybe they find their own things. But through the journey, they lose those things. And so that's why all they have to offer Link when he finally shows up are these these very rudimentary tools and and what we could do through through it through that through the the the story of his. The the lesson sort of learned is it it could be multifaceted. Sort of like, don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Jim:Appreciate what people offer you even if it is isn't much.
T.C.:Even if it is just a wooden sword.
Jim:Yeah. Because because a wooden sword is the first step on the to the master sword.
David:Yeah. That's interesting too. Think another thing we could kinda glean off of here is that the first old man gives Link a wooden sword, but but I think all the rest, and again, let's just say five. I actually couldn't find a number. It's weird like the three places I just searched all said, there are multiple instances of old man in the, you know, okay fine whatever.
David:Google is broken,
T.C.:David. Yeah.
David:Yeah. But Google's broken. Did. Five to six. Yeah.
David:But what I do recall is that the the first old man I think is the only one that actually gives you an item. The rest give advice only. So like the third old man you meet is like, Todongo doesn't like smoke or something like that. And then the second old man you meet says something like, Eastmost Peninsula is the place. And so after that wooden sword, nothing's really tangible from them.
David:Is there any way to work off that?
Jim:I think that still work that works directly into the those themes of appreciating small gifts and stuff like that. Like, the whole point could have been they they their goal was to have a treasure trove, to have everything ready. Mhmm. Well, first, they thought they were the champion. Yes.
Jim:Yes. Yes. But then when they realized they weren't, it was like, well, we'll have everything ready for the champion. And all of their preparation, like, was was was for for not. Well But their they would they would pass on their experiences if nothing else.
T.C.:There there you go. I and I think maybe how about this? If it's a group of young heroes, like Yeah. Who will eventually be the old man.
David:Mhmm. Yeah. I mean, you have some fun with where we can't even recognize them for the first act
Jim:or something.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's sort of seven samurai, 13 warriors, hobbit escorts, this band that come together, the rise of some sort of evil within the Hyrule, within the land, being Ganondorf or if there's another villain that could pre you know, let's say it's the the rise of evil, and these characters, these individuals believe if the hero's not gonna come, I'll fulfill that destiny. And maybe they start together, maybe they meet each other on the path.
T.C.:Oh,
Jim:you're you're that that's that's your journey? Well, let me join you. That's what I'm doing.
T.C.:And they collect their tools of their trade. They have their specialties in a boomerang and a slingshot and a sword and a shit. Like, whatever the case may be, a cartographer, the just if one of us isn't the hero, maybe all of us can work together and actually getting to face the evil. Like, they get to the end of the path and and the villain, if it is Ganon or Ganondorf, saying, like, you none of you are worthy of defeating me because none of you are the I know you hate chosen one situations, but
Jim:Well, no. I this I know this is a chosen one story, and that's that's fine.
T.C.:And that he defeats them, maybe even slaughters and kills all of them so that all that remains is the the one singular warrior who knows.
David:It's Well, this is this is interesting. This this is kind of lining up with a storyline that happens as a prequel to the Super Nintendo game where there's these seven sages, these seven wise old men.
T.C.:Oh. Oh. Alright.
David:And and I think Ganon Dorf or Ganon at the time, I think did, like, exterminate all of them or something. I gotta I might have to live research We we might have
T.C.:stumbled onto exactly what we need here.
David:Go ahead. Well, A Link to the Past is kind of a spiritual prequel to the first game. So we could kinda line it all up in the same timeline. Also, I thought about this. It might be a little winky, wink wink at the audience, but we could do things like, you know, the the boomerang is found in the first dungeon in the first Nintendo game, and it's just sitting there.
David:There's no, like, defeat an enemy and you earned it. You kinda just go down a crack Yeah. In a castle and you find it. And so we could have fun. T.
David:C. When you said like maybe they were making some of these items, it could be a little bit of fun of of like how they also lost the items and then Link is finding them in the game and stuff like that. Mhmm.
Jim:Absolutely. What I gasped at was the idea that I I again, I'm not familiar enough with the the actual legend to know if this would work in there. But if right? Because they're all younger, so we don't really recognize them. But if one of them is Ganon.
Jim:So, like, at the end of the journey, when they think they've been they've been they've they've gotten to the end, they're like, oh, he's not here. It's not it's not us. We're like like it's
T.C.:I was with you the whole time kind of evil.
Jim:No. No. I actually, I was gonna say, like, they get there and they're none of us are the hero. There there is no villain. The the maybe the what if the legend isn't true and and stuff like that.
Jim:No, it is. I'm the chosen one. I know I am. And and it it's it's Ganon insisting he is the hero to the point that he's like or that that even at the end, he's like, fine. If I'm not gonna be the hero, if the legend won't choose me, I will choose to I will choose the legend.
Jim:I will be the villain.
David:Okay. So way one thing we can work off with that is if we're using the Super Nintendo game, the the the Super Nintendo game was the first time we got the Triforce as the three triangles. Mhmm. In the first game, just it's a single triangle broken into eight pieces and and so on and so forth. And that was be and then also in the Super Nintendo game, it's the first time where the three triangles represented the three characters of wisdom being Zelda, courage being Link, and power being Ganondorf.
David:Or Ganon, there was no Ganondorf yet in the Super Nintendo game at least. Mhmm. Ganon getting Power, so that kinda lines up with what you were talking about there, Jim, where maybe there's a moment where as the Triforce, you know, Ganon snatches Power and boom, there we all now, you know, everything falls apart because he he he he's logicking himself into making that choice and and then there it is and that's the beginning and maybe that can work into the sage thing. I'm actually researching the wise old men real quick here.
T.C.:Okay. So, Jim, is your suggestion that these heroes who they they know evil is coming. They either it's already, like, taking over the land that, Hyrule is being is succumbing to this evil presence. It's not Ganon per se. It is just an evil, and they believe these are the portents of Yeah.
T.C.:The fulfillment of this centuries old cyclical prophecy. Yeah. And so they individually and then eventually as a team think, okay. The heroes the hero or heroes must rise. We will defeat the evil.
T.C.:And then upon reaching the evil, whatever that is embodied, one of these seven is like, no. This was my destiny to be a hero. I choose to be evil, and they become
Jim:They are Ganon. Yeah.
T.C.:Ganon. Okay.
David:So I mean so it's seven so it's specifically seven wise men in A Link to the Past. They were reimagined as seven sages. I'm getting this information from a zeldadungeon.net right now,
T.C.:which Great.
David:Great. They're they're kind of friends of the show. And the seven sages, we've we've experienced in Ocarina of Time. And what's kinda cool about that is that the seven wise men in the Super Nintendo game, it's it's literally seven old men. But those roles then generations later are held by the the sages which are like, there's the Zora one and the Goron one and the whatever in Ocarina of Time.
David:And that could even not that it's part of our story could, but it could speak to like what the seven wise men represent. The whole like pass it on, the story and the rest, you know, that that feeds right into what is actually realized in Ocarina of Time as well.
T.C.:And it allows us to have a more diverse cast of characters to just default to seven wise old men. It's pretty limiting. But if we go to the seven stages being represented in multiple races of people, that allows us to have a Zora and a a Gerudo and whatnot.
David:One other thing that Zelda Dungeon references here is that the seven wise men, they sealed be before the game starts, the Super Nintendo game, the pre story is that these seven wise men sealed Ganon into the sacred realm, which is a typical thing that happens to Ganon.
T.C.:He's always got to go.
David:Always gets sealed away and then the seal gas to get broken. Right? And so I wonder if that could be an act where maybe it's like eight we we are introduced to eight young men and of course Ganon's kind of one of them. Know, I'm trying to line up with what some of the things you guys are laying down here. Mhmm.
David:And and there could be a moment where Ganon makes the choices he makes and is seduced by the power triforce or something. And when that all happens, our climax or our result, our our princess Leia moment or whatever might be them sealing him in and then, you know, we see Egg in him, which is the main protagonist of the Super Nintendo game or something like that. You know what I mean? Like like, basically lining up with the beginning of the Super Nintendo game. Them actually sealing
T.C.:him away.
David:Know, that that could be like a link.
T.C.:Now Yeah. Not to be a curmudgeon here, but the demand did specifically say that we'd not focus on Link, Zelda or Ganon. Are we betraying that for man?
Jim:Oof. The re here's why I don't think so. Mhmm. We don't know it's Ganon until the end, until that character embraces being such.
David:Mhmm. Yeah. That's fun. That's fun. And like it shouldn't be Oh, wait.
David:Wait. Wait. Ganon is still a pig in this game. Ganon was never realized as a human until the Nintendo 64 game. But it doesn't mean we can't have Ganondorf be a human.
David:Ganondorf is the human version. Gan is the pig version.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:Well, we also like, I I know there may maybe I'm getting a little too out there with it. We don't have to adapt or prequel to any of the existing stories. Right? We could we could do another iteration of the legend.
T.C.:Yes. Yeah. I think so.
Jim:Or or is the spirit of the demand, the spirit of this crossover even to actually adhere to one of the existing stories?
T.C.:Well, demand didn't specifically say that we had to tie this directly into any specific Legend of Zelda. It just said expand the a freshly cinematic and root root in the world's DNA. So, yeah, we could have this take place centuries before the very first game that this it the old man in cave doesn't necessarily have to be one of these characters and it ties directly into the first game. Like, we we have some latitude here to to explore telling the story.
Jim:But also if it is lining up that well with Link to the Past, I am on board.
David:Well, I mean I mean, it it it can. But I think we could take you know, it's a it's a balancing act too. I'm realizing as we're talking about this because when you're gonna take a universe, an IP universe, and you're gonna tell a story and you've got these main threads, and you're gonna tell a story over here to the side. And sometimes Star Wars suffers from this and sometimes Star Wars excels from this. But like, you could almost take any script and put it in the universe.
David:If if it doesn't connect anything at all, you can kind of almost put any script anywhere and put it in the universe and there we are, we're all good. The fun is finding the couple ways that like, oh my gosh, this story that didn't matter at all, little butterfly effect here Yeah.
T.C.:Triggered
David:two things and actually really mattered in the universe a And and that's
T.C.:what Andor.
David:That's what Andor does so well and all of that. And so that's kind of the balancing act I'm trying to find here a little bit. You know what I Okay.
Jim:So if Ganon is a pig man, is a pig monster, pig monster man, man bear
David:pig. Okay. Wait. Yeah. I'm sorry.
David:I wait. I'm I'm gonna interrupt one more time. It's he he is a pig monster. May maybe
Jim:he's man he's man bear pig with the legs.
David:Was gonna say, like, maybe he was a man, and then when he got sealed away, he turned into a pig. But I'm taking Exactly.
Jim:That's that's exactly where
T.C.:you're Yeah. Yeah.
Jim:But the idea being he was he was a man when when he was traveling with these people and when he's like when he was able to grab whatever power and he's like, no. I if the legend if if I won't be the hero of Hyrule, I'll be the tyrant. Mhmm. Yeah. One of, like, one of the sages, one one of them knows enough magic that what they do is they're like, oh, that's not good.
Jim:So they actually cast him into a pig. But Ganon is already gathering enough power that he starts transforming into a pig monster. And they're like, we gotta go further. And so then they have to cast him into the spirit realm Is
David:the only way? Sacred realm specifically.
Jim:Sacred one. Sacred realm.
David:Because there is also a spirit realm.
T.C.:Sure. Okay. What's the difference?
David:Well, oh, believe I did a whole episode with Zeldom. Oh. We had him on, yeah, his YouTube channel where we discussed the difference between the sacred realm and the spirit realm and what their relationship was. And we we we sussed it out, but it's, you know, it's one of those things when you when you have, you know, 20 different games and everyone has every game has its own little side lore. But you can get the pieces to fit a lot of times if you if you get clever enough.
David:But anyway, I love where we're going with this. I love the Ganon Ganondorf. Well, let's say Ganondorf when we're referring to him as a human and Ganon we're referring to him as the monster. Okay. Ganondorf is not called Ganondorf, is one of the eight men that are trying to save the the world or or or at least are growing in the ways they grow and maybe they do learn about their items and their things.
David:And yeah, I love this whole track and maybe the the the thing at the end that that clicks Ganondorf over is the the again, the biggest thing that makes Ganon a bad guy and Link a good guy, you could say, is that in the Triforce, Link chooses courage, Ganondorf chooses power. And so when the things aren't working the way the eight wise men planned and Ganon says, you know what? I've got the hack. Essentially, I'll go to the dark side. I've got the hack.
David:Power Triforce, not Courage Triforce or whatever, or did you And even that's when, like, all all hell can break loose and and that's when they have to make those choices. So those those are could be some of the the the literal triggers that would still line up into, the Zelda universe and stuff like that.
T.C.:And Sure. Yeah. And taking this separate from Zelda and creating a fantasy adventure story, this all works as a narrative. So the Yeah. Two big things I'm thinking about right now though are what's the evil that they are trying to destroy?
T.C.:What is the embodiment of that? What what is their singular goal here? We are gathering our forces to go to here to destroy this. Is it an artifact? Is it a tower of evil?
T.C.:Is it a monolith? Like, is it the dark tower? Like, what is this thing or being that they believe is destined to be the the destruction of Hyrule in this cyclical story? So that's the first thing I'm thinking about. We can we can go right into that.
T.C.:I see Jim nodding.
Jim:Oh. Oh. Yeah. No. I I think it's I think it's a a part of the legend.
Jim:And then on their travels, mostly through the first act, we we learn. They they talk to people. They have their own experiences, and they end up encountering evils and dangers. And what what's happening is people are just talking talking about a rise in evil in general. Right?
Jim:There are more monsters around. The monsters are more brazen. A a town was razed recently by I don't know enough of the creatures creatures names names and and
David:Yeah. Yeah. It's It's fine. Fine. So Zelda.
T.C.:Right? So so it it really, at first, is just sort of nameless and shapeless and placeless. Mhmm. But as they further out as they as they
Jim:venture razed further into the wilds and the danger, it doesn't quite coalesce, but it's they they feel like they're getting closer to a center. And my notion is what that is. It is a place, and it's it's the final dungeon that you in the game, you fight Ganon in. Right?
T.C.:Because that's where he's gonna be locked away.
Jim:Yeah. So they fight their way there, and they find an empty chamber. Find They an empty cave, an empty dungeon.
T.C.:All this time we've been we've been coming here to fight something, fight a being, fight it's it
Jim:doesn't Yeah. It's the
T.C.:idea of evil. What have we been doing here?
Jim:Yeah. Yeah. And that that's what Ganon is. He's what what who will eventually be Ganondorf is super pissed about.
David:Mhmm.
Jim:And and and, like, his turn could actually happen pretty pretty quickly. Like like, he he is so frustrated, the other's like, well, there's nothing there's no thing here to slay or destroy. We just have to be ever vigilant. Clearly, we're not the chosen ones. Clearly, the legend hasn't come to fruition yet.
Jim:And Ganondorf is like, no. No. I we we all have shown plenty of courage. We all clearly, we are we are eight. That's an auspicious number.
David:Mhmm.
Jim:We are the triforce. And if and if no one else is gonna be brave enough to take the power or to to take it, I'll do it. Yeah. After all, taking the power requires courage. Oh.
Jim:Oh, dang. I was gonna say, yeah.
David:Oh, damn. Nice work there. And I also was thinking from a logistic point of view, you know, Ganondorf, I'm not sure exactly what the dwarf part means, but what if what if we have this human who's named something dwarf or something like that,
T.C.:they become
David:Steven Ganondorf. Gulf. Then what's that? What'd you say?
Jim:Dorf on Gulf. It
David:Well, it's it's, you
Jim:know Tim Tim Conway character.
David:Something Dorf is his real is his name as our almost main character or whatever, perhaps a side character or something, you know no. No. No. I think he's our main character. Throughout the whole thing, goes for the current or goes for the power, becomes Ganon.
David:So then it lines up that as Ganon, then Ganon reimagines himself as a as a human. So so our our our whatever dwarf character doesn't even look like Ganondorf. You see where I'm going with this? And and so then he gets turned into the pig beast. He gets turned into Ganon as Ganon for a while.
David:And then Ganon finally is like, I've this is like later in the story. Maybe it's not even in our story, but this is what we're feeding to is that Ganon has figured out how to take his monstrous form and conceal it back down into like a human form that that is where we get Ganon off. So I like the idea of like the dwarf name is like referencing a little bit something that he was before he was Ganon?
T.C.:Possibly. Yeah. Yeah. I think I I love the idea that he manifests himself back into human form and I'd like to make a suggestion for that is that our POV character should be the man who gives the wooden sword. That the Yeah.
T.C.:The character we start this movie with
David:Yeah.
T.C.:Is this young hero who believes in the fulfillment of the prophecy, who has who is truly a hero. Mhmm. And when, going through this adventure, how this ever this adventure man like, fulfills itself, if we get just a hint of an epilogue centuries later when Ganon chooses to when Ganon chooses to become Ganondorf and take the form of a human Yeah. He takes the form of that guy, of the hero, the swordsman, the young man that he was that that had basically when when Ganon seizes the power when Ganondorf seizes the power at the end of this adventure in the in the cave, in the final dungeon, and our heroes have to stand up against him, their friend, and finally go, no. No.
T.C.:And they all draw weapons on him and this big battle goes down. The the hero we've been following from the beginning, the the our protagonist, our main character, the swordman, it comes down to the two of And while the swordsman survives and many of our other characters die, a bit of a final revenge of our villain is that when the villain can't finally take human form, he chooses to take the form of and this is really just a glimpse of a thirty second little moment at the end, minute long thing at the end of when Ganon chooses to choose a form. He chooses a human form to look like the the final hero who to destroy him as sort of
David:Well, I love this
T.C.:figure two.
David:I love this because in Ocarina of the lore for Ganondorf is that Ganondorf was was born. We've talked about this before. Mean, born every hundred years or whatever. I also You know, the idea is that Ganondorf is the flesh and blood creature, but the idea is that Ganon has figured out a way to finagle into this life form and then be birthed into our natural Hyrule world. Mhmm.
David:But it would be cool. And and of course Ganondorf is Gerudo and maybe our main character isn't in our in our film but like the features could
T.C.:be The features. The
David:Yes. You know what I you see where I'm going with that? And so Yes. Like, maybe our main wise man doesn't have red hair or something, red eyebrows, know. But that's kind of comes through in the in the combined genetics of mystical whatever.
T.C.:Yes. Like in the in the production version of this, that final image of Ganondorf becoming human is that hero actor of the swordsman in makeup.
David:I also think that I I love I'm I really was kind of not not not triggered, the positive version of triggered. Was really I really latched on to TC when you pointed out that really having our point of view character be the the wise old man. The one. The old man. The old man.
David:Maybe not even the wise old man. Oh, this is interesting. I feel like we could imagine a scenario where in the first Nintendo game, which is parallel ish with the Super Nintendo one. We don't have to get too nitty gritty there. We this is all about inspiration here.
David:If if the first thing that happens in a Zelda game, any of the Zelda games, is that Link goes into a cave and gets a wooden sword from an old man Mhmm. That is exactly where our story ends. Again, you know, postscripts and all that. And I think it's when that guy, a la Rogue One, a touch, all has been lost. And maybe maybe we see this main old man character in the beginning of our film as a kid Oh, I just picking up a wood sword
Jim:Yeah.
David:Or something like that. And we feel like, wait, is this Link or something? Like, that's kinda those feelings a little bit. And and and we have the wood sword and yes, the other wise men also start making boomerangs and the things and the stuff. Through the course of our second act, these things are lost.
David:Some of these people are destroyed. And perhaps, Old Man and maybe just a few disparate few who are hiding in caves, because they're all in caves or hiding in dungeons in the Nintendo game, I just remembered. They've had to retreat because because the because of the aftermath of this Ganon situation. And the last thing, there's there isn't a special hookshot anymore. There isn't a special magical sword which, you know, whatever.
David:All this character has at the end is that wooden sword.
T.C.:Yes.
David:And we've come all the way down to the end and that's what that's all he can give to to Link. To Link. And but also it's like everything and anything that it's everything Link needs. You know what I mean?
T.C.:If if the movie starts with our young swordsman Yeah. Swordsman using a wooden sword. And then when the call to adventure comes along and they move up, I I'd like to pitch that this young swordsman actually seeks out and finds, discovers, uses the master sword. And in the final battle against in the when we see all our characters get murderized and
Jim:it's Against Ganon.
T.C.:Against Ganon. Yeah. That the master sword is destroyed and and sent away. And the only thing left that our hero has to fight with is a wooden sword. Yeah.
T.C.:That's it. Because it's the skill of the swordsman, not the sword itself is essentially what I'm doing here. So then that's the last thing our hero, our protagonist, our swordsman walks away with is just that final and then it's, I will sit in this cave and I will wait.
David:So a I I don't often Google on air but a quick I'm having so much fun with this and I really wanna I really wanna nail this. I am quickly googling quick little facts here. The magical sword and I I recall this as soon as I read it. The it's called the magical sword in the first game but it's the master sword.
Jim:Mhmm.
David:The master sword is found in a graveyard in the first Nintendo game.
T.C.:Oh, yeah. Okay.
David:So I mean, obviously, our story, there's a character that has it that that passes or does or something. Like, somehow this sword in our story has to get to a great the graveyard in Hyrule and be lost, you know, to to time and all that.
T.C.:So there's a couple ways to go with that. That if my suggestion of the swordsman fulfilling his destiny in one way or another where he takes the wooden sword to wait in the cave for the hero of time to exist to appear. Mhmm. Sort of like last crusade where the Yeah. The knight waits for the chosen one.
T.C.:Or as David, you might be suggesting that the swordsman dies and they bury him with the master sword. I My Because I pitched my idea, I like I like waiting in the cave with the wooden sword better than our swordsman dying, but
David:I love I love this idea that they they're everyone's they're like it's like the the team's got a plan. Right? They they they think, you know, by the time they hit act two, they've got their plan. And what we're gonna learn is that it doesn't quite work or this or that or maybe some pieces unravel. Unravel.
David:But maybe the end goal of that plan is, hey, all our problems are answered when we find this master sword, magical sword, whatever. Maybe they talk about a magical sword the whole movie and it's not really called the master sword until something happens in the third act, but they turn it into the master sword and the the person, maybe it's not our main character or maybe it is, they think they've done it. They've they've they've so someone believes in it's don't know. I'm getting a little lost. But but the idea that, hey, I've got the master sword.
David:This
Jim:oh. Oh.
David:Oh. They try to use the master sword on our Can't. Our Ganondorf character Mhmm. And it doesn't work out. Ganondorf wins because he has with the power of triforce and that master sword, you know, one of our other wise men ceases to exist.
David:And our main character still has his wood sword, but what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to build them up through act two. They think they've got it essentially figured out even though there might be questions. And act three is we just rip everything away, and at the at the end, it is just the wood sword. That's what I'm trying to get to here. You know what I mean?
Jim:Yeah. Absolutely. That that was I agree. I like that. That that's that's what I was going for.
Jim:I don't I actually would like if that if that main character we follow we don't he does well, actually could start with the sword, but what we learn is he made it. He made it himself, and even the other villagers make fun of him for it. Like, what are you gonna do with a wooden sword? Right?
David:100%.
Jim:It's a stick. And he's like, I I don't know, but I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna try. And as they as they go, they get more and they get more and better equipment. I'm thinking this character, what we see him do time and again is actually give things that they find to other people.
Jim:Like, you'll you'll do better with this. I'm I'm fine. I I got
T.C.:Take this. Yes.
Jim:I got this. Yeah. Take this. He kinda keeps saying, take it like and that that even happens with the master sword. Like, maybe the the seven of them are like, no.
Jim:You've been with that wooden sword for so long. Take take this one. Take this. And and so he wrote he like, okay. I will.
Jim:But then in the in sort of that climax, realizations happen in, like, in the final fight, Ganon is like Ganon realizes that the magical sword is the potent thing that could kill him. And so he intends to kill them for it. And one of the other characters who is a better swordsman, because our our main character, he's Yeah. He's more of a Baron Munchausen. Right?
Jim:Like, he's not himself necessarily an expert at any any one of these things.
T.C.:His skill lies in seeing the potential mothers?
Jim:Yeah. And and and and in preparing and and in in just daring to seek the adventure and the the boldness of of attempting to do good. And so one of the other characters somehow selflessly takes the sword from him to to make Ganon go after him so that Mhmm. This good person can live. Okay.
Jim:Yeah. And so he that way, our character with the wooden sword survives Mhmm. Knowing that his friend sacrificed himself by taking the magic sword to put the attention on himself. I don't know if that fully works.
David:Yeah. I love where you're going with this, and it's making me also feel that I think there'd be it'd be really cool thematically if I don't know if it's subverting expectations, but it feels like we are a little. It would be very cool if the wooden sword really is just a wooden sword. It doesn't have any Yes. Yeah.
David:Special magic that they discover. Agree. It doesn't actually perfectly fit into the keyhole they need to do. It's actually still kind of quantifiably the worst thing in their inventory. But the best part, what I would love to accomplish thematically is that even though they lose all the fancy things and our main character feels like all is lost and maybe they're truly feeling it just seconds at the end of our story, seconds before Link comes into that cave.
David:There's nothing anymore. But but the the it's dangerous to go alone. You need some like with the the wooden sword is all our character has and it's all Link needs. Like that Yeah. If we can get to that, it would be really cool.
T.C.:Mhmm. Yeah. It's basically Wonder Boy from the natural. It's the like Yeah. That our hero carved this wooden sword.
T.C.:I don't know if I am on board for our our old man giving the sword not being the swordsman of the story, but that's that's not something I'm willing to die
Jim:in a
David:What if we what if we use it where he kinda what we we see him when he's younger and he wants to be and he just doesn't have the skill? That Like he you know, that's why he hangs on to that wood sword. It's the one that he made or something.
T.C.:Oh, you know what? You know? Okay. Yeah. That that's that he is a good swordsman, but he's not the best swordsman.
T.C.:And in their adventures as we gather our sages, if we do come across someone who is a very good swordsman and in the quest, trying to find the master sword and finding okay. Follow me on this. They enter some sort of side quest adventure to find the sword. And when the sword is discovered, I'm gonna evoke last crusade again and use this as a bit of narrative foreshadowing for our swordsman in the cave handing a sword. If through this cave system, the, our swordsman character in Ganondorf who is gonna be our villain.
T.C.:Basically, I'm I want Ganondorf to take the sword for himself.
Jim:The The sword?
T.C.:The magic sword for himself and not reveal that he has it until, like, you like, when they get in that final cave and it's, like, true courage is taking having the courage to take power. No. We're gonna stop you. I'd to see you try and then pulls the master sword out. So now they have to fight him with both a triforce and a magic sword and then our swordsman being able to disarm him and give that sword to our swordsman character who actually can wield it.
T.C.:And then that character is the one who dies and we bury the master sword or magic sword with them.
David:I I like the I like that character being the one that I don't know if I'm fully sold on Ganon having that sword, but I'm listening.
T.C.:I'm Pitch me on spaghetti wall. I
Jim:would really rather have our main character be more of a Frodo than a Aragorn.
T.C.:Great. Yeah. Okay. That's I'm on board. You sold me.
T.C.:Again, sold.
David:Oh. Oh. And of course, as as a as a Frodo, this you know, it's it's sweet. It's almost heartbreaking that this is the wood sword that this character made as a kid. And it's good enough to fight off a goblin here and there and and he he never wants to get rid of it.
David:He TC, to your point, I think it was you said you said it maybe fifteen minutes ago, he he keeps like not he keeps not accepting the he's like, no, I'm good. I'm good. I'll I'll And you know, there could be a, you know, I don't need that fancy item. I'm good with this sort. And to your point, like maybe he's even made fun of just a little bit, nothing nothing crazy.
David:But what I think is really cool thematically there is he never want he never gives it away. He never wants to give it away. He never gives it away until he does to Link.
T.C.:Yeah. Oh, yeah. Sure. And like he held onto it for this whole adventure.
David:Part of his arc is actually letting the sword go and letting it, you know, maybe go to someone else. Even if it's not the best sword of the world. Even if it's the worst
Jim:like sword. To offer I'd like to offer an alternative. We can we can go with that. But the alternative is he actually is trying to give it away because that's just how how the character is. He's very magnanimous.
Jim:If he sees someone in need, he's gonna give it to them. But because it's a wooden sword No. People say like, no. No. No.
Jim:There's there's better. No. I'd I'd rather I'd rather go with a bigger stick. Link speaks
David:to Link's character. Link is the first one to say yes or something. Right?
T.C.:Yeah. I I don't know if I'm fully on board for that, but at least everything that happened once. Like meeting our actual swordsman and being like, well, you can have mine. I'd rather have a stick. Just even if it just happens once because, thematically speaking, our young swordsman wouldn't our old man or Yeah.
T.C.:Our wise man wants to believe they can fulfill this prophecy that they are destined to be the hero. So being able to let go of that and letting go of the sword at the same time like, first accepting we were never meant to be the heroes. All we can hope for is that the hero will show themselves, and we've done what we can to prepare their way. I will wait for the hero to arrive. And then letting go of that and then also letting go of the sword in the end is the last act of destiny will now be fulfilled.
T.C.:I've done my part in this story.
Jim:Okay.
T.C.:So there's a thematic thematic letting go. Yeah. Kinda like Obi Wan handing the lightsaber to Luke. A little bit of
David:Little bit. Yeah.
T.C.:Legacy there. Yeah. To borrow from a very clear monomyth.
Jim:Also, I would have I would want many scenes where this character saves his own bacon, saves saves saves the day or or delays death with this wooden sword. Whether it's, you you know, keeping the jaws of a monster from closing to managing to to to parry back parry off a series of attacks.
T.C.:Mhmm.
Jim:Like, the through action, we, the audience, see that that wooden sword is actually doing a lot of really good work.
T.C.:It's dangerous to go along.
David:Yeah. And it's and, like and we don't make it overt, though. It's not the like No. Yeah. Special moment.
Jim:It's just that you've been tracking
David:appropriately, you've noticed this thing's doing okay.
Jim:Yeah. Yeah. Properly applied, a common tool is going to be very useful.
T.C.:Yeah. It's a bit like in the Dungeons and Dragons, Honor Amongst Thieves movie, the Chris Pine one. Chris Pine only throws one punch the whole movie and the two moments he gets where he actually is effective is hitting someone with his violin. Yeah. He's he's a man of Yeah.
T.C.:Action in his own
Jim:And it's and it's not like that instrument is is magically Significant.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:Yeah. It it's just it's a it's a piece of wood.
David:How do you feel about these eight people knowing each other when we start our story and not like, you know, not doing a first act, go collect the group kind of thing?
T.C.:There's a couple ways to go with that. I mean, Magnificent Seven style, you gather your party as you go. The Fellowship of the Nine, you gather them by the halfway points. There's some precedent here in terms of fantasy adventure that can go one way or the other. I would default to our if you being the expert of Zelda, I'm gonna default to Jin being an expert in fantasy world play.
David:I just thought, like, what's we could we could spend our first act collecting, collecting, collecting, and that's cool. Or or maybe it is all to get oh.
Jim:So the reason I lean toward them not knowing each other is because think that highlights all eight characters each setting off on their own quest thinking, I will be the chosen one. Mhmm. Mhmm. And even as they encounter each other, like, you can travel with me. You're a good guy, but really, I'm the chosen one.
Jim:Interesting. And then at the end, they sort of all, in their own ways, have to wrestle with that notion that they're not Link. They're not
T.C.:Let it go.
Jim:They're not the hero.
T.C.:Be be the hero of this part of the story, but not the hero of time. Yeah.
David:David, David. Because they're sacrificing themselves down to, let's just say, they're going from eight down to five ish, you know, by the time our story is done, we have maybe five disparate characters that that are kind of Obi Wan Kenobi ended up in a cave Mhmm. Just just hanging on to the their their their story is done. They know it. They're gonna live off their life lightly peacefully perhaps less so.
David:They found their little nooks and crannies in the world and they have, you know, failed or whatever. Mhmm.
Jim:I guess I get Alright.
T.C.:So in
Jim:in my mind, the the so if it's yeah. If it's five, we started with eight. One was Ganon. One is our hero that dies with this the magic sword. That means one other dies at some point, and that's that's all eight.
Jim:But I I see the five sort of entering a a lifelong pact. They still believe in the legend. They now acknowledge they're not the heroes. They weren't struck like Yeah. They got there.
Jim:And when Ganon became the the villain and all they were able to do was banish him, they they they encountered it and realized firsthand. It's not even just, oh, it's the time isn't right. It's like literally they they got their chance at bat Mhmm. And they couldn't do it. But that's okay because they know the they know the hero's coming and they all in my mind, they they're all gonna old Ben Kenobi.
Jim:Mhmm. And that's why they hang out in caves. They they know that they they choose locations that they know the hero will need to come to. So Interesting. They're have you guys watched Avatar the Last Airbender?
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:I no. You haven't? Oh. It's I'm so sorry. I really haven't.
David:Yeah. I'm I'm heard
T.C.:as you should.
Jim:There's a No.
David:My story is tragic. The only Avatar, the last airbender I've ever seen was the M Night Shalomar.
T.C.:Oh, it is tragic. Oh my
David:I was like I was like, I don't even know this series and I can tell this is not the way
Jim:it's supposed to be.
T.C.:Go ahead, Jim.
Jim:Go ahead. So there's a it's there's a group of characters that are a a clandestine group of people for the betterment of the realm called the I I forget what they call this. It's something of the white lotus. And so they all have this this little symbol of a white lotus that so they know they know who is in on it. But at the point of Avatar, they're all old men.
Jim:So it's not that they've Okay. Given up on on their their their younger dreams of being heroes. It's that they've they remain guardians even into their old age. And the the young characters of our story, I believe when they they they first learn it, a part of it is who they encounter like, oh, you're actually you're old and formidable and you have a legend about you, but others entirely unknown when they reveal the the lotus. Like, wow.
Jim:Really? You're part of it? Yeah. There's there's lots of ways to help. Yeah.
Jim:And so I I I guess I would I would see the the the five remaining our five remaining heroes
David:Yeah.
Jim:Right. They they it it could it could even be overt, but they they basically enter a pact like, okay. We we all go to our agreed upon spots and and Yeah. Almost like lookouts. Right?
Jim:Like, they they Yes. And and yeah. Yeah.
David:They they all no. I love this. I'd like to I'd like to piggyback off this. I'm I'm I'm thinking that we're really under something here with this. Yeah.
David:It's true. Okay. Fine. Two two perish for reasons, and maybe there could be thematic reasons why they may they make the wrong choice here or there. They go for a a power adjacent thing or whatever.
David:But when we get down to our five and and again, we're doing we're just saying there's gonna be five in the Nintendo game. It's something like that. But I like we'll say five for the sake of this episode. I love that they all kinda
Jim:Oh, Didn't you say there were seven?
David:Kinda go
Jim:What's didn't you say there were seven in the one we were talk we were we were actually doing?
David:Well, there was there were there's seven wise men and seven sages, and that's kind of a theme in in Zelda games. We've been using eight to have Ganon one of them as well.
T.C.:Right. Right. I I I think it's okay to still kill characters off if we understand that there are people who can carry on carry the torch. So that even if we kill off a bunch of characters, there are people within their lives or destiny will fulfill
David:Yes. Other people will rise up.
Jim:There's no reason that our eight couldn't have traveling companions. Like, this is my squire or
T.C.:Something like that.
Jim:Things like that.
David:Sure thing. Yeah. Absolutely. And also, I think the whole idea of, like, the sages in Ocarina of Time not even being old men but taking the same roles, you know, speaks to there's must be there's something in the lore that, you know, these these positions get moved down. But but anyway, what I'm getting to here is I love this idea of of, you know, I think our I think the end of our story feels like a a loss.
David:I think all three of us are kind of lining up with that. And it for all intents and purposes, you're it feels like, wait, we've we've we've we've we have messed it all up. Oh, not messed it all. Well, haven't we're not the ones. I get it.
David:Yeah. I love that. Mhmm. Maybe we've messed it up, but it's not gonna be us. Maybe it'll be something in the future.
David:Alright. We'll go to our fire watches in in Hyrule and kinda hang in our caves and and maybe one or two are little like there's literally one man old man that you have to like push a block and it reveals a a wall in one of the caves and maybe he's set up there. Maybe others, you know, others are just in caves in the the area. But what I would love to see there is they don't they don't they only assume through maybe a little bit of knowledge that there's gonna be a hero. But there isn't any kind of would love it if there wasn't there wasn't a moment of like, you're not the ones, but the one is coming.
David:You what I mean?
T.C.:Yeah. You get it
David:through a scroll. They actually don't know. They actually don't know. They're just kinda hanging on to They believe. Idea.
David:Sure. They've at least they've at least gotten rid of Ganon to be sealed. And then I I think there's this cool moment where we have our main character with his wood sword. Everybody's kind of agreed to go lay low for decades or centuries or maybe there's something, you know, who knows how long time lasts with with these lifespans. But our our main character, they don't know when the the hero's coming.
T.C.:Mhmm.
David:And I'm seeing this I have this visualization. I have this I'm seeing like the old man kind of just chilling, going about his business, melancholy. You know, this is this is like maybe one of our last scenes
T.C.:Mhmm.
David:And has his wooden sword. It still hasn't really we've seen it's capable, but it hasn't meant anything yet, in quotes. He's not hanging on to it because he thinks it could be something special or anything like that. But it's just all that's left. It's just what he has.
David:And I think it could be cool. There was this thing I'm I'm losing my train of thought a little bit. Mhmm. It would be very cool if he was almost about to I don't know man, now I'm riffing, but maybe about to get rid of it or or maybe, you know, put it put it away or something. And that's when from behind, a character dressed in green comes into his cave, you know, Yeah.
David:Says And says nothing. Yeah. And and the old man asks if if our character's alone.
T.C.:Mhmm.
David:And they, you know, they nod or something like that. And and is holding accidentally holding the wooden sword because they were about to put it away or who knows what. And that's all they have left. That's all this person has left with the side with the exception of like a little bit of food to live by and be a hermit. Mhmm.
David:And he and he says, you know, well, it's dangerous to go alone. Here, take this.
T.C.:And it was
David:literally the line in the game. Yeah. And like, I love that. And he could be a moment. It could be a real moment.
David:He's not just like he's not just like, well, I'll just get rid of this. It could like really mean something. It's it's it could be the end of an arc of the whole that sword is the arc of the whole story. And for some reason, he feels like it's the right person to give to this person in
Jim:your You
T.C.:just know.
David:To give to.
T.C.:I wanna wanna know what I mean? Yeah. I wanna I love that. That and I think that's the last line of the movie is take this, it's dangerous to go alone. And then we see
David:Are you alone? Are you alone? Nod. Well, it's dangerous to go alone. Take this.
David:Because it's dangerous to go alone. I mean, I got it right here on my family. There it is. At
T.C.:the very beginning of the movie, our young character with this belief in their heart that they're destined for something great, the first signs of evil are creeping into the kingdoms into the kingdom, kingdom, into into the the land, into Hyrule. The fear of this has been foretold. This is it's the fulfillment of the prophecies. It's coming true. The dark times are coming.
T.C.:And the first little flicker, a literal flicker of anything that that gives our hero the the notion of now's the time for me is a fairy. Not a fairy that talks to him, but just a fairy that appears in the night that he follows into the woods and gets some it's that call to adventure through the flicker of a fairy. One other point in the movie at an all is lost moment that gets them to the next thing is the appearance of an of a fairy. Yeah. And then at the very end, when he sits there, he maybe startles himself awake.
T.C.:He's sitting in the cave. He sees the wood sword before him. He's been waiting, waiting, waiting, and there's just a moment of another another I'm still waiting. Taking the sword, turning to, like, put it away, and then out of the corner of his eyes, the flicker of a fairy that comes and goes. He turns to it, and the cave opens just to create a visual calm response.
T.C.:I love that.
David:I absolutely love that. Let's I if you don't mind, I'd like to return back to this idea of kind of our first act stuff that, Jim, you were setting up with the I love this idea that each of them prob you know, start their adventure thinking they're the one or or or or they've they've received some kind of call to adventure, literal something, and somehow it's brought them to a similar place and they realize I mean, I guess they just kinda alert of the ringsy though, isn't it?
T.C.:It's alright. The trick of this and it's if this were an actual film to be produced would be to separate itself from Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones and like Mhmm. It fantasy is a tough realm to play in cinematically because at this point, it appears to be well trodden ground and limited in its
Jim:Jim's shaking his head. Jim's shaking
T.C.:his I think
Jim:there's lots of room.
David:There's Lots of room? Well, what
T.C.:can I I agree? Do this. I agree.
David:And maybe there's a few characters that are happier happier about this than and others are less happy, and maybe our Ganondorf character is very not happy about this. But I don't know. You got anything, Jim, to kinda I throw on this?
Jim:I think as far as, like, how they come together, I'm imagining it. Not not so much. I know I invoked Lord of the Rings with some of the characters names and and and stuff. But I actually see them coming together more like one piece. Where it's like, I'm gonna be the hero of of this or that.
Jim:And it's like, oh, me too. Let's travel to we're going the same place. Let's travel together. And they become fast friends as traveling companions.
T.C.:Yeah. That then it's more like magnificent seven. There's a common goal and and they all believe in the the goal one way or another.
Jim:Mhmm.
T.C.:So I think you're on something. But let's do this.
David:Yeah.
T.C.:We're gonna take a break right here. We're gonna throw some Six Five Media commercials. But what I wanna think about in our five minutes here is, other things from Zelda mythology and lore that we can find a way to fold into this in our adventure. Because right now, we have a call to action. We have a gathering of these heroes in one step or another, and they're trying to get to defeat this evil.
T.C.:Having some other mythology and locations and characters that we can reference and go to outside our mainline characters will give us stepping stones along this path. So that's more of a David assignment, but also Jim thinking in terms of fantasy adventure. What are some motivating things, side quest y things? We wanna go a b c d f g, everything like so just think about that. And we'll be right back after these messages, which might be a Zelda commercial for all we know
David:from six gonna be a Zelda commercial.
T.C.:Okay. And we're back back in Hyrule, adventuring with a bunch of nobodies with no names, just occupations and ages.
David:What I think I was thinking about this over the break. Another thing that we can consider, we don't have to tell this part of the story, but I think we could seed it in our story, is that this kind of like seven wise men, seven sages, seven keepers of something that protect the realms and the sacred realm, this is something this is a theme that gets absolutely, not recycled, but like Repeated. Yeah. Repeated. Yeah.
David:Absolutely. In in this is so in some ways, we could we have an opportunity to have our story be maybe the first of this, and there could be a I know if it's a second act thing or a third act thing, but it could be like, even though this was just eight men, boys, or otherwise, they've they've started something. Right? Whether they knew it or not, they've they've started something that that that then is also another kind of cool soft seed for future Zelda lore and, you know, the other games and all that.
T.C.:Mhmm. Mhmm. If our main character, our wooden swordsman, is so infatuated with the legend of this, has waited for this his whole life, much like a lot these characters believe they could be fulfilling their destiny and coming from different parts of Hyrule, being different creatures and races and whatnot. But if he's the one that we follow as an audience who has the sagely words, he could be documenting all of this in a text, like writing his writing his memoirs.
Jim:Bill there and back again?
T.C.:Kinda kinda not not necessarily Billbo did it as a way to show off, but, like, that when he's in the cave, he's documenting the cycle of this. Maybe I don't know. Or we have a researcher type character who can answer these lore questions.
Jim:Well, that might actually touch on what I was gonna bring up. Because because you were you brought up sort of like b plot kind of stuff. You you might have just meant what other scenes could we have in there. But I realized what could be helping inform the characters a lot. And as far as, like because the the notion of they don't they don't know anything about the timing of the prophecy or anything like that.
Jim:They just believe in hope.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:But I think there are creatures out there that could give more concrete answers to a lot of this, and you brought them up. The fairies.
T.C.:Mhmm.
David:And and as well great fairies, which are like Yes. Lore lore keepers.
Jim:Mhmm. Oh, cool. There you go. Even more. So the notion could be, like, you you were just saying it's a visual symmetry to include, but it could be more than that.
Jim:The fairies could actually be looking for the hero.
T.C.:The heroes. Yeah.
Jim:And but they and while they don't know exactly who it's going to be either, so they're going to anyone. Like, you're you're kinda like a hero.
T.C.:You're kinda heroic. Yeah.
Jim:I think you might be you might be the hero. You should you should go.
David:Have you heard?
Jim:And and and but, like, so to that end, like, each of them could have one or more fairies that have been like, yes. This is our champion that we're gonna we're gonna take to the evil.
T.C.:I I really don't mind this still. My only concern just structurally and narratively is having too many characters with too many additional characters. We have a hobbit problem where it's like, I don't care how much you distinguish these characters visually. They're all just dwarf.
Jim:Yeah. No. I I understand what you're saying there. So what I'm including for I'm not saying we need to give personality and screen time to all eight or more fairies that are tagging along with our eight or more hero characters. Mhmm.
Jim:I'm thinking there would be a couple. Think like Tinkerbell. Yes. There's lots of fairies in Neverland, but Tinkerbell is the named one. And there could be a couple others.
David:Well, was thinking about
T.C.:this who gathered all these people together.
David:Yeah. I was thinking about this too. We could we we it doesn't have to be a fairy per person. It could be a single fairy that's zip zapping around and like, you know, visits one for a day and then goes finds another and this or that. And maybe that fairy could even be sent out.
David:But what could be fun is that another seed is that the the future characters like the Kokiri who all get their own fairy at certain ages and certain things like that, that could be a ritual recognizing that time that fairy went and got all the the wise men. You know what I mean? Mhmm. And so so we don't have to in that way, we don't have to literally have every person have a fairy, but that's how it could expand to that, you know, speak to that, you know.
T.C.:To to bring more of the fairy lore in. I what I'd like to look at structurally narratively is creating an additional antagonist in the mix here. Yeah. And since we ultimately take this to the final dungeon and have a battle involving the triforce of power. We haven't delved it all into the hierarchy of Hyrule, the kingdom itself.
T.C.:The in if if memory serves me right, David, you may be able help me on this. The seven sages worked with the knights of Hyrule. If I'm remembering Link to the Past correctly, it's not just that seven people trapped Ganon. The knights of Hyrule also were involved in some capacity. I just have a memory of the knights of Hyrule being involved in that story.
T.C.:Maybe it's not even Link to the Past. Just remember
David:I think it is because it's honestly pretty quickly after well, Ocarina of Time literally comes out after Link to the Past in release order. Technically Link's Awakening was in there. But so we go from two stories that talk about the the wise old men and Mhmm. By the time we hit the fourth game, it's already the sages. And we've already expanded it past seven old men or whatever.
David:But it's the same roles being fulfilled. And wait, now I thought I was gonna compliment your point but I don't know
Jim:if I
T.C.:So what I'm saying is that having the kingdom of Hyrule, having a knight or a pair of knights or a couple of knights being antagonistic towards our heroes where it's like, no. We've been ordained by the prince the king himself to protect this land, stay out of our way. It just creates a a more physical, face of a of an antagonist that isn't necessarily a villain. Yeah. Because another thing to add into the mix here, adding a lot to this story with essentially eight main characters, is seduction of power and the seduction of being the hero.
T.C.:Like, having these opportunities to sprinkle in character testing moments. There's two things happening. Having those character testing moments be applied through their experiences against monsters and other creatures and having this secondary physical threat, physical antagonist of these knights who are like, listen, you farmers and fish people and whatever that guy is. Back off. We're we are the knights of the of Hyrule.
T.C.:We are the heroes.
David:And it's a it's a copacetic relationship, but it is not a it is two two parts, two bodies. They're not it's not like, oh, the wise men are right there with the soldiers on this in the same courtyard. You know what I mean? It's like together and maybe even sometimes opposing together, you know, were they taking care of Hyrule protecting Hyrule.
T.C.:Particularly if the knights get wiped out and we have one final knight, potentially, we can then turn our original group to seven and the eighth character ends up being the surviving knight. So then there's no like, if we have eight wise sages that are going through this adventure, Ganon is one of them. If we have seven, people assume, oh, here are seven sagely characters. Oh, that one has revealed himself to be a villain. Well, luckily, have this knight character who fulfills the seventh slot.
David:The knight could be a red herring too. I I like this idea that what if our our pre Ganon character isn't necessarily corrupted. It's it's a slippery slope kinda
Jim:thing.
T.C.:You know what I mean? They get there. Yeah. I see Jim I see Jim mulling it over over. I
Jim:see it. I'm not understanding what we're what what my understanding of of what the the story we're telling is sort of the origin of the sages. Yes. Right?
David:I think so.
Jim:And there are seven of them. Yes. And they go on this adventure, and the knights are also there. And they're all like, hey, you not knights. Stop doing nightly things.
T.C.:That's what I'm suggesting. Yes.
Jim:That could even start earlier, and then eventually one of the knights joins them as one of the eights. There doesn't have to be a replacement thing.
T.C.:What I'm saying.
Jim:Okay. I I thought you were saying there
T.C.:was No. No. No. Meant as we're moving pieces across the board. Narratively speaking, seven characters set out.
T.C.:The knights are also engaged like, hey, you seven dorks. Stay out of this. So when we get to the end here, our seven sages, one of them proves to be villainous. It's game. So now there's six sages and a knight who slots in to be the seventh sage.
David:And what I think is cool about that is either the knight might be a little gruff and we might be inclined to think like, there's the guy that's gonna go sour. But but maybe that knight doesn't. In fact, maybe that knight ends up doing something really cool. Maybe that's the Yeah. That actually has the magical sword.
David:Maybe that's our sword carrier. But but I think it'd be really
Jim:cool if There you go. That that make that make I like the idea that they have the magic sword. I like that.
David:Yeah. Yeah. And so so, you know, the the the not yeah. Yeah. So Ganondorf, whatever we're calling him, is part of that original seven.
David:Yeah. Yeah.
T.C.:Yeah. Do you still
Jim:It's the the numbers are are he's part of the original eight.
T.C.:No. They are not original eight characters. They're originally seven heroes who set out.
Jim:Why?
T.C.:So that when this ends, there are seven sages. Seven seven heroes set out. Including in those seven is Gan.
Jim:But okay. Here's here's here's my thinking. Here's why I think it should be eight because David said that lines up with how many pieces of the triforce there are. Yeah?
T.C.:There are eight pieces of triforce?
David:So in the first game
T.C.:I missed this.
David:There is the there's the triforce of I think it's courage. I think it's courage and power, the two opposing ones in the first game. And the the one of courage has been splintered into eight pieces.
T.C.:Oh, okay.
David:And that's why you go to your dungeons, basically.
T.C.:Okay.
David:I I I also like the thing of eight because if we're gonna lose Ganon as not a stage, we gotta have the other seven there.
Jim:But that's that's That's why
T.C.:what I'm suggesting.
Jim:But that's why I'm thinking there are eight characters. One of them goes bad. If Ganon hadn't gone bad, time were to pass, the legend the the the the the ongoing tradition would be eight sages. Yeah. But the eighth sage is a villain, and thus, there are only seven.
David:Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's We're
T.C.:agreeing to the same thing.
Jim:I think we are. I'm I'm pretty sure we are, but it, like like, it just it kept it kept hitting my ears weird, which is why I keep making this face. Sure.
David:Hey. I just got an idea. You know, there's a little bit of this, like, well, I think it would be cool if if it was a little grassroots y. Not so much that these eight it it was once you started talking about the eight sages and seven sages, like, well, if one wouldn't have gone bad, it would have been eight sages. But, like, if we're thinking about the powers the the powers of destiny at the beginning of our story that's gonna collect these eight sages for in in different means and different ways via fairy or via, you know, serendipity or whatever.
David:And then at the end of the go, well, okay. Well, we won't do eight. We'll do seven, these these powers that be. I love the idea, like, what if those powers that be don't even exist in this storyline? And in fact, they exist after this storyline because they're inspired by the actions that these fairly normal people took and chose.
David:And they go, wait, we can take this spirit, the spirit of these people, not literal, but the ideas of what these what these people did and yes, five of them are hiding in caves. We're we we can we can we can turn this into a thing. This is this is an in fact how we should spiritually, you know, keep our world safe for debt for for thousands of years. We shall have the sages and it's gonna be based off these seven. And so I
T.C.:love this of Hyrule.
David:Yeah. And so maybe maybe the our seven sages, eight eight down to seven sages, they they become their heroes in their way and and then do fall, and they probably fall because of Ganon. But in oh, kind of organically, not like a not a not a not a magical pick. You know? Mhmm.
David:Mhmm.
T.C.:Yeah. That they be they become legends unto their people. Like And and
David:actually, I'm realizing is that our three Triforce goddesses might it's kinda cool if they were to be inspired by the acts of mere mortals and say, wait, this is a system we like. We're gonna we're actually gonna honor this and and and and deem people these these roles in the future. Do you see where I'm going with this?
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Even if that's not something that's implicitly stated in this, the idea that somehow working its way into the lore or the narrative of this singular movie.
David:Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I'm trying to, like, just build some rules, but yeah.
T.C.:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I see Jim.
T.C.:I to play life over the
Jim:I'm I'm yeah. I'm thinking about stuff. I like I like when numbers line up and our some of our numbers are lining up, but but other ones don't. Like, three doesn't go into seven or eight. That that's that's fine.
Jim:But I'm I'm thinking about other things like you wanted to make the knights sort of a secondary antagonist, and I'm I'm not sure we have, and I'm I'm sort of okay with that. I like the idea of of the knight having a squire and the rest of the group at least at first, the knights are like, no. That's my squire. Don't count him. Don't count him for anything.
Jim:But the rest of the group not having that bias is like, no. He absolutely is. Because there's also there also ends up being they definitely count count the squire because the way that they become a part of the group because originally, the knights are are trying to bust this group. I'm like, no. Go back to your homes.
Jim:You're Mhmm. You're, as you said, farmers and fishermen and whatever he is. And the it's the squire who sort of persuades the knight. Like, well, you know, the the the the common people can be kind of hard headed. Perhaps you should escort them.
Jim:Perhaps we should and so right. So the way he ends up sort of being worthy of of the whole thing is is he's he's clever.
T.C.:I like He
Jim:has ways with words.
T.C.:Yeah. I think having the knight and a squire, those two characters that we've just assigned two roles to our necessary eights, and I I like this because they have an established relationship.
Jim:We know four now.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:So They haven't oh, I'd so so sort of in supplement to that, I feel like the knights have fallen away as sort of a a real antagonist position. Now, maybe you have some more ideas for that. I keep imagining the adventure being not not a a a villainless or adversary less. I keep imagining it like never ending story. Like, yeah, the the the nothing has no body and I don't remember the wolf's name.
Jim:Mhmm. The wolf sort of keeps showing up because it's chasing Atreyu. But I I see the the villain being more like more like the Nothing.
David:Gamork.
Jim:Gamork. Okay. I see I see the villain of of this story, at least for most of it, being more like the nothing. And and I don't know if that's an angle you guys like or not.
David:I think I
Jim:But they they run into things like like I'm I'm remembering in the first Zelda game, you go into the the desert or the canyons or whatever it is Mhmm. And it repeats forever unless you walk out the the proper way. Like, there there would be a whole set piece where they get lost in this in this perpetual place. And and the the the location itself becomes becomes the enemy.
David:Mhmm. To that point of locate I like that too. I I agree. And also I think maybe the knights could just be a little bit of act one tone setting. So we, you know, they're a proxy for the world at large kind of not believing, you know.
David:It it just puts our our people in in unlikely hero kind of status or whatever. I think that could be very easy to do that in the beginning. It doesn't have to be a main antagonist. Mhmm. I actually googled I literally typed in finally, what are all the things the old men say in the original Zelda game?
David:Yeah. And a lot of them, we we got our guy with the sword, but almost all of them, of course, in the game, they're just hints to things to do, but they are all based on locations and the areas. So we have we have like Eastmost Peninsula is the secret. Secrets in the tree at the dead end. Take any road you want.
David:Show this to the old woman. Master using it, you can have this. So there's like This could feed into that idea that part of their for whatever reason why they're traveling, they've collected this this this knowledge and they've learned about the weird desert and they've learned about you you see where I'm going with this?
Jim:Mhmm. Yeah. Essentially, that's that's what right. It's man it's man versus nature essentially. Essentially.
Jim:And so all the things that they advise Link to do in in the game, those are all sort of the lessons they learn in our story.
T.C.:Yeah. I think so. Yeah. Yeah. Thinking about
Jim:Don't take the mountain pass. Go through the go through the Mines Of Moria.
T.C.:Well, something that I think might be to to to touch on some other things here is so we now have four characters. We have our swordsman, a knight, a squire, and Ganon, which I think Ganon should be a Hylian. Like, he just is a human character. Like, we won't have a Gerudo in the in the mix because I think having a Sheikah character in the mix who, in pursuing the destruction of this this evil that's that's coming after the land, yes, Cookie, hello, Is well, we when we get there, we will be facing a a Gerudo because that is who is destined to be the evil. Right?
T.C.:Because the isn't isn't the the legend that the human Gerudo will always be Ganondorf?
David:Yeah. This wasn't fully really realized until kind of the Super Nintendo game and and a little bit more in the Ocarina and the Nintendo 64 game. But I think this is all basically close enough to the story we're telling. Yeah. In if we're specifically talking about the first Nintendo game, it really isn't there's zero verbiage about like Gerudo.
David:Okay. There any graphical representations. Yeah. But I love this idea of Gan Ganondorf or or Bob Dorf or whatever his name is is like is like a normal person and Ganon finds his way back in through what eventually become the Gerudo later on.
T.C.:Yeah. Okay. Good. I I just wanted to like to assign some the other four roles here. A Sheikah comes with a stubbornness.
T.C.:They're the technologically advanced race. They are the despot.
David:Point, we could use the Sheikah, not to get too into the weeds, but we could use the Sheikah because Link's nurse does exist in the first game via the instruction manual.
T.C.:Oh, great.
Jim:I was gonna suggest the opposite. I was gonna have suggest more than one Gerudo to kind of muddy that water so
David:that Interesting.
Jim:We wouldn't know for sure.
T.C.:Well, the the knight, the squire, and whoever Ganon is are three human characters, at least as I have them just jot it down right now. Because having a Zora, a Goron, and a Rito Rito. Is the bird people. Yep. Yeah.
T.C.:Gives us yeah. We could have like, the knight himself could be Karuto. Well, also creates a red bearing in him.
David:Wanna throw a hard stop on that. Hard stop on that. Woah. Woah. Woah.
David:We if if we're telling our story in this part of the of the within this kind of Nintendo, Super Nintendo range Yeah. They are explicitly referred to as seven wise men. So I feel like seven humans. And what's cool what's fun about that is that these roles don't expand out to other races or frankly even genders until thousands of years later when the god you know, the goddesses have have have seen the acts of these seven mortals, eight mortals and said, oh, this is great. We're gonna assign these now.
David:But, you know, the world's so big, we're gonna, you know, okay, it's gonna be Azor, it's gonna be a Gerudo. I actually think that a As much as I don't like saying this, I think this kind of like I think they I think they have and maybe we can use this, but I think they have to be like eight dudes.
Jim:My argument against is the Catholic church is very patriarchal and male oriented, but there are many female saints.
David:Yeah. That's a good point.
Jim:And our our original seven don't have to be men or human, but all of their traditional descendants
T.C.:end up being so. Because the the seven sagely men, old men, as it's in the first game, if we're gonna try to link it to that Yeah. They only have to be seven sagely old men then if they carried on the tradition of
Jim:But that is also what we are trying to have the end of the movie be is we're trying to have our main character be that old man.
T.C.:Right. But there's also decades between the end of defeating Ganon and Oh,
Jim:you're saying
T.C.:it goes into the cave.
Jim:You're saying all the people in the caves aren't tower characters?
T.C.:Not all of them have to be.
Jim:Oh, I was I was working to make them good.
David:I was also working to
Jim:make I also didn't know
David:this is interesting.
Jim:Legend of Zelda was full of a bunch of different Like races? Nonhumans. Oh, I thought Gerudo were just a race of man.
David:No. It's there's there's a it's a whole it's a there's, you know, seven or eight different kinds of, like, major races now in the in the Zelda games. Yeah.
Jim:And they all they all follow and believe in the the the legend of Zelda?
David:No. Not necessarily. In fact, like the Zora have a completely different religion and stuff like that. And all the different kingdoms will often communicate with each other and agree or disagree too from time to time. But that stuff really started with the Nintendo 64 game and now it's expanded where when you play a game like Echoes of Wisdom which just came out recently, you've got every little every single species is represented and their cultures and their political, you know, aspirations are all like formed now these days because we're, you know, almost forty years into this.
David:Yeah. But but back in '19, you know, '81 or whatever it was, '82, it was there's there are literal graphical depictions of like seven men.
T.C.:And I I think we can achieve what we're asking for here. I I do believe there needs to be quite a amount quite a lot quite a long amount of time between the end of, like, capturing Ganon and when Link walks into the cave. Like, it should be forty years between the time.
Jim:Oh, at least.
T.C.:Yeah.
David:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, our main character goes from 40 to 80 or whatever. Right.
T.C.:Although Oh. In '19 when did that first came out? 1980
David:You know, honestly, don't know exactly. I'm gonna Google it.
T.C.:Think it's '85. '84, '85. In 1984, '85, a 50 year old looked like an ancient old man to people.
Jim:So
David:Yeah. That's true.
T.C.:But anyway, there's there's time between the end of our story and then the epilogue.
David:And really, we use that wooden sword as our kind of icon too. You know, we when we Yeah. When we finish our main story and we we we fade down on the wooden sword and we fade back up on the wooden sword and we see 80 year old hands grab instead. We know who Yeah. We're dealing with.
David:Yeah. Okay. '86, +1 986 allegedly here in America.
T.C.:My so my suggestion of having a Sheikah and a Zoro and a Goron. Goron. Thank you. Is for the visual diversity of a group of heroes as opposed to eight
David:dudes. Well,
Jim:don't know.
David:I'm not
Jim:Ocean's 11 had 11 dudes, and we loved every one of them.
T.C.:But they were diverse.
Jim:Humans. Male.
T.C.:That's true. I don't know. Casey Affleck. Unnecessary. I didn't know.
Jim:Casey Affleck's listening. He's like, what did I do?
T.C.:Oh, I've been a fan of the show for six seasons. Goddamn it.
David:I am I am thinking about this. I don't know. I I know we want I know it's like it's boring to have eight generally
T.C.:It's not necessarily something we need to decide right here now. It's just my pitch.
Jim:Just trying to see if they're Ultimately, we don't have to we can call them the sages. We don't have to go to each cave and see that they they are or are not who they were.
David:I think
Jim:They very easily could be, oh, in their old age, the the fish man had Sorry. A human understudy that's like, yes. I believe in what you're doing and I will take up your cause after you've died. And they did. And so they're like, and now I'm the old person in the
T.C.:cave. Right.
Jim:Fine. I can I can because ultimately, the only cave we go to while they are old is this the wooden sword?
David:Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. Wooden sword. So the reason I'm getting a little hung up on this, and and thank you for entertaining me here is that they these roles aren't called sages until hundreds of years later when they are fulfilled by not just men, not just old And in the origin, for better or for worse, is these like eight old men and the graphics even show like white beards and you know pixels
T.C.:and stuff like that. Easy. Can fix it. Everyone who's not Hillian just refers to Terrans or or bipedal men, whatever their gender is, man.
Jim:It's the Hyrulean version of boomer?
T.C.:Yeah. Okay, man. Okay, man.
David:And so I I don't know. I don't know. I don't I don't know if we're like, there is a moment where in my what what I'm building in my headcanon now based on what we've the story we've been writing is, there's a moment after our film where those sages where our where our goddesses say the actions of these eight men, seven men are heroes of their hearts. We recognize it and we're actually gonna turn that in into positions and roles for future and that's when that transition happens where it can it's not. It doesn't have to be an old man.
David:But like I think the that that Orangen story being eight men or whatever I think is is is I'm okay with it even though I know it's not as exciting. I don't know.
T.C.:It's okay. It's okay. I it's not necessarily something we need to break apart right here and decide on. So
David:Let's just give them all hover hoverboards and then we're fine. Do
T.C.:are there any other bits of this story that we need to explore? Because I'm just gonna break it down real quick. Right? We got the evil is rising, a young hero, the wooden sword is called to action by a fairy. In one way or another, these eight people are gathered together to venture forth to destroy the evil, all of them believing in one way or another that they could be the heroes that destiny and legend and myth have ascribed.
T.C.:They believe they're all going to do it. There's threats along the way. They get to their final moments of destroying the evil that's rising only to discover the evil's not even there, leading to one of the characters to snap and say then I will be the evil. And then they all fight, fight, fight. Some of them die there at the hands of their once friend.
T.C.:At the end, our wooden swordsman defeats the villain with the help of others to lock them away, comes to accept that none of them were ever destined to truly be the heroes that Destiny promised, but now it is up to them to be the the the ambassadors to that hero when the hero finally reveals itself. The end.
David:I have I think I have something. Go. Yes. The we I think we can invent a little bit here. We might be able to invent our villain because I think it's important that Ganondorf becoming Ganon, becoming the villain actually isn't our technically our main he's not actually the main villain.
David:Let me let me continue to try to put this together. If our eight are going up against whatever they need to go up against, I think it's important that the Ganon character chooses the the Triforce of Power to take that power because initially he thinks this is the best way to help. This is the thing to do. Know, he's making the Mhmm. He's choosing power.
David:And also I I did a quick search. The two triforces in the first Nintendo game are actually wisdom and power. Courage doesn't come up until the Super Nintendo game because courage is connected to Link which actually tracks. If we don't have a courage in our film because Link's not around yet, the hero's not around yet. But I think we could
Jim:have fix Ganon says it is wise to take power. Yeah.
T.C.:Good.
David:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It takes courage to take is wise to take power. Do you see where I'm going with this?
David:I think Ganon is not our big bad. I don't think there's a big battle with Ganon. I think the fact that we have eight friends and one of them is just making the wrong choice and they have to do something about it. It's so and it's so bad that with that power, Triforce turns that friend into the big pig monster. And when it's all gone too far, they have to make a choice to seal him away.
David:But I think something else is I Like, they have to they something there's a reason why Ganondorf has to think, jeez Louise, I need all this power to to do x y or z. And I think it would be cool, personally, think it would be cool if Ganondorf originally did it, you know, thinking he's doing the right thing.
T.C.:Okay. Jim?
Jim:I see what you're saying. I I I guess it depends on on exactly what you think the right thing is. Because I I think the reason he does it isn't isn't because he thinks he's he doesn't he thinks he's doing the right thing in the same way Thanos thought he was doing the right thing.
T.C.:Yeah.
Jim:Mhmm. He thinks he's doing the right thing because he thinks it. Yep. Not not because it actually is the right thing. It's hubris that he basically gives into.
Jim:And so my notion is, I I I know what you're saying by needing another antagonist, Like, well, who are we gonna swashbuckle against? Like, we need we
David:need someone to switch. Have to make this super power up choice?
Jim:Mhmm. Well, because he just he came to King's Landing and he free he he freed all of these people, and they still resent it.
T.C.:Oh, no. No.
David:No. First of all.
T.C.:I I kinda dared. Came with Rose.
Jim:So, Jim, I do kinda I do kinda
David:see where you're going with this, Jim. I I think I like it. Make it a little more subtle. I see where you're
Jim:going way we the way we visually and to intactily put that into the into the movie is he is not the only one that is tempted.
David:There we go.
Jim:The same way well, not not the exact same way because it really was more of a vision. But in the way Luke went into the swamp and encountered his his personal demons Yep. Basically, I am Darth Vader.
T.C.:Darkness of the soul? Sorry.
Jim:Basically, these shades are Harry ing our characters from almost the beginning. Yeah. And when they get close to them like like, they can be like Nazgul esque and and and and and, like, actually fighting them. But when they get close enough, our characters see and they eventually talk to each other. See themselves.
Jim:They see themselves
T.C.:Shadow versions.
Jim:In these in these dark. And I'm realizing that actually touches on that can touch on the link link to the past because of the shadow.
David:Yeah. Shadowing. The dark world. The dark world. Absolutely.
David:Mhmm.
Jim:So, basically, what it is is it is the triforce of power literally tempting them every step of the way. And it is and we see all of our all of our characters, all of our heroes, they get test they get tested, and they they pass either through their own personal metal or through the help of their friends. But it is only Ganon who in the end gives in because he is entitled, and he is selfish, and he he believes that that he believes he is bigger and better than it. Yep. And when it comes in and it appears as himself and it offers him this power, he's like, yeah, I'm gonna take this.
David:I mean, love this because the pre story to that Nintendo game is that, like the setup is Ganon has stolen the Triforce of Power. Yeah. The Triforce of Wisdom has been split into pieces. And that's that's where that's where the game picks up where our story ends.
T.C.:Nice. That's that lines up perfectly. Yes. Yes. Okay.
T.C.:Well
David:Boy, we are just mailing it. Yeah.
T.C.:If I I I like what we have here. I think we have something here
Jim:that Yeah.
David:Something to say.
T.C.:Were we to be assigned to write this, now we have at least a very clear structure at the beginning. It gets fuzzy in the middle and then gets ourselves to the end. We can connect those two dots. I I'm tempted here to call call it a wrap to to say we've we've completed our pitch. How do you two feel about that?
T.C.:Is anything there touching on?
David:I think you pepper in some awesome dialogue and some great character dynamics and I think you've got a you've got a movie here.
Jim:Just easy. Just grab some of that off the off the iStock shelf.
David:Yeah. I think we take this and we just go make it good, and we we've nailed it.
Jim:Oh, make it good.
David:Oh. Yeah. Forgot what.
T.C.:You know what? Sometimes I I think we forget to do that.
Jim:I think so.
David:Like the the football coach that's like, I've got the perfect plan, team. Alright. I've got it. I know it's halftime, but it's a very simple plan. Win the game.
David:That's our plan. Coach. Yeah. Coach. We got it.
David:No. No. No. But no. No.
David:I think I think our I think our building blocks here and our rules and our universe is all set up great. And then you throw a little you spend a couple passes putting some character involvement in there and I think it's great.
T.C.:Well, I'm gonna I think that's gonna do it for the episode then. So, like, what we need to know, Zach, over there at Castletown Studios is how did we do? Okay. Now it's up to you to contact us and anyone listening if you hit you can hit us up to agree or disagree or let us know what we missed, anything at all, you can message us directly at studio demands it dot com or on Instagram at studio demands it. You could look for this post specific specifically to comment on it.
T.C.:And if you're not already, please, you know, take a moment to subscribe to wherever you might be listening to this. It doesn't cost you anything. It's one flip of your button there. Okay. And if you feel like giving us a little review, you can do that in app, and that also helps us get out there into the world.
T.C.:You can find us on YouTube and TikTok where we post video content, including material not heard here on the show. And Jim.
Jim:You can join the my screen froze, so I wasn't sure if everything was still recording properly. I'm sure it is. You can join the conversation over on Reddit at r/studiodemandsit or on Discord. Go to our web page studiodemandsit.com, and there is a link to the Discord server
T.C.:A link?
Jim:At the top there. To the to the server. A link to the server.
T.C.:Love that, King.
Jim:Legend legend of Discord.
David:There it is. There it is.
T.C.:Nope. That's it. That's it. Yeah.
Jim:That was it. That was that the the the full the full bit.
T.C.:Well, normally, I oh, wait. Actually, before I do that, if you want even more, we do have Patreon for a couple bucks a month. You can get episodes early, commercial free, extended double length episodes, movie commentary tracks with episodes hidden within there. And also shows love.
David:That you I know I'm interrupting, but one of my favorite things that the two of you have been starting to do on your Patreon that I adore are your well, guys have been doing them for maybe a year or two, so there's a ton of content, but the suddenly a conversation Yes. Pieces that you do. I just listened to the Tron one, I don't know, last week or whatever when when you'd first come out, the Tron Aries one, and I just absolutely, I could talk to you another thirty minutes about about all of that. But you're right. Yeah.
David:Why do you go to the real world? Go to the cool world.
Jim:But I
David:Thank you. Right? I know. I agree completely. But anyways, I digress.
David:Those little suddenly conversations, they're so raw, they're so natural. I think it's TCU literally just holding up like your phone
T.C.:Yep. After you
David:see a film. Yeah. And it's it's they they become one of my favorite pieces, one of my favorite spots on your to to Thank hang out
T.C.:you for saying such because we do make those available for free on Patreon. So all you have to do is subscribe and you get those conversations for free. And normally, I'd sit here and give a massive thank you to Six Five Media for everything they do for us. But David, why don't you do a little plug in right now?
David:Sure. Absolutely. Yeah. So my name's David and the kind of the big show that I host is another Zelda podcast. I think most people that listen to this show know that.
David:Very happily running Six Five Media, this this this niche podcast podcast company company that has has a a bunch of new shows coming up and and has also been home to previous shows. Studio Demands It Here is the second oldest show on Six Five Media, which is really really cool. In fact, many in many ways, back in the day when I was thinking about kinda making the company, I contacted TC first. I was like, if there's any person that's gonna be involved in this adventure, it's gonna be him and whatever he wants to do. And he came up with this idea.
David:A studio demands it and so that's been an absolute blast to kind of have that happen. We also have some newer shows. We have our first another we have our first another Zelda podcast spin off show that's doing really quite well. Gallu, Chad and Bex do a show called Another Pokemon Podcast. It is literally format copy paste on purpose.
David:Another Zelda podcast. I used the same I used the same Photoshop files to make their icons as I did for the the Zelda one. It was all done on purpose and and they've been having a blast there in their second season, and I'm tremendously proud of them. And then a little teaser. It's not coming out till January because we're producing it right now, but I have a new podcast that I'm in the middle of developing right now.
David:It has turned out to be my final thesis for school. I'm my final year of going back to school. I'm still producing Returning Students and all of that. That was a that's a documentary podcast about going back to school. But what has taken precedent here is a show.
David:I think the two of you know that I that I'm I'm a we play Dungeons and Dragons once a month, and I'm a first time DM, and all my players are first time players. Well, what we've decided to do is we've taken the story that we've been building via game for the past, you know, building at the table for the past year. We've taken that story and I've adapted it into a radio drama, into a Yeah. Into this fictional narrative podcast. It's gonna it's called Legends Awaken, a D and D podcast.
David:Right now, it looks like it's gonna be 12 episodes a season and each sees each episode's gonna be somewhere around thirty minutes and I'm actively producing and recording it. Right now, It is my hope and dream that we have other, like as you could say, characters like TC and Jim. Sold. Be be be like, you know, NPC cameos and stuff like that in in this show. For the assignment, I have to produce six episodes, but I for the season, I know it should be 12 and it'll continue on.
David:And so we're playing we're play we've just started play I said one way, we're playing the beginning of season two right now, but I'm creating season one. And so there's about a year delay on that and that has been I I didn't I never planned on making this show. I know I'm getting a little long winded here. But I never planned on making it. My professor recommended that I make a fictional narrative and I always Yeah.
David:Kinda thought about it. Was like the last in my wheelhouse I hadn't really experimented with. And then, actually to that point, it was the stinking another Pokemon podcast people that like talked me into having to be the D and D show. Yeah.
T.C.:Well done. And so,
David:that is like, you know, when you're when you're among creative friends, good things, you know, are birthed and so I'm really grateful for that. And so please look forward to Legends Awaken, the D and D podcast coming out in 2026. It's it's it's cool. Thank you, David. Thank you for letting
T.C.:us do this show with you. It's a dream. The fact that we've made it this long, I think, Jim, you've said it. This is the longest you've ever committed to anything in your life. This
Jim:is this is giving my my college run a run for its money. Or we it's we will be doing this longer than I went to college.
T.C.:Amazing. Well, that's fine. I can say this.
Jim:You because I went a long time.
David:Community and everything. You know? Oh, TC's trying to wrap up the show. I won't stop talking.
Jim:Oh, definitely. No. That's fine. I do the same thing. I'm I have things planned already to say to interrupt him.
T.C.:Well, I'll say this. Voting is now up for our finale. If you head over to Instagram, Discord, anywhere that you can hit us up socially, we do have the nominees up. I won't say what they are here, but you can go find them on social media.
David:There. We can't talk about it yet.
Jim:You gotta go there to say,
T.C.:go there. You can't listen
Jim:here because we're not gonna say it here.
T.C.:Yeah. But voting is now up for the finale. We will be back again soon, Jim. If you have anything more to say, we'll move it into bonus territory. But we will be back again soon.
T.C.:David, do know how we end the show?
David:Yeah. No. I usually listen to the I think I usually listen to the Patreon.
T.C.:Could y'all
David:that was it. That was
T.C.:it. That's how how he ends the show, everybody. By usually by usually listening. The music's playing. That's how you do it.