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Stories of veteran service and sacrifice straight from the people driving today’s most important veterans causes and veterans organizations around the world. The show shines a spotlight on their inspiring projects making a real difference for veterans and their families, and along the way we'll hear the stories that drive them to do their best every day as they work to support veterans and their memory.
00:00:06:04 - 00:00:32:13
Speaker 1
Hey, it's Matthew Cudmore and welcome to Story Behind the Stone. Today we're joined by Zita Bollinger Fletcher, author, military historian and journalist. In today's episode, we dive into Zita's passion for sharing overlooked stories. Her take on General Montgomery and our history continues to shape modern warfare. Zita, thanks for your dedication to keeping history alive and relevant. And to our listeners, thanks for tuning in.
00:00:32:15 - 00:00:43:21
Speaker 1
Welcome to Story Behind the Stone, a show where we talk about service, sacrifice and story. I'm joined today by author and military historian Zita Bollinger Fletcher. Zita thank you so much for coming on the show today. Thank you.
00:00:43:21 - 00:00:44:09
Speaker 2
For having.
00:00:44:09 - 00:00:51:23
Speaker 1
Me. It's a pleasure to chat with you just to get folks acquainted with you, professional military historian. Your work must change dramatically from one week to the next.
00:00:52:01 - 00:01:12:18
Speaker 2
Well, I'm usually working on books and at the same time I'm covering the defense industry and military news. So lots of writing during the day. Lots of getting engaged with new military technology, and at the same time, looking at conflicts during the past and and comparing what's going on. And that's pretty interesting work. So never a dull moment.
00:01:12:19 - 00:01:16:16
Speaker 1
What initially sparked your fascination with military history in the first place?
00:01:16:17 - 00:01:37:01
Speaker 2
I have always admired soldiers and brave people, and as I was growing up, I was very interested in war documentaries. I really like history and I really enjoy writing on soldiers tactics and also leadership. I think there's a lot we can learn from all those things, and so I just really enjoyed diving into those subjects.
00:01:37:01 - 00:01:43:08
Speaker 1
When someone opens your book, what are you hoping that they're taking away with the knowledge that they're gaining from all of your books?
00:01:43:08 - 00:02:03:22
Speaker 2
I want readers to be both informed and also entertained by my books. I want people to learn interesting things and also enjoy a good story, a good read at the same time. So I'm hoping to make history come alive for people and also hopefully to provoke some debate, bring up some new ideas about different things that maybe have gone unnoticed.
00:02:03:22 - 00:02:06:21
Speaker 1
Thinking about your body of work. Where did you start?
00:02:06:22 - 00:02:38:10
Speaker 2
I started doing research about the war in North Africa, a long time ago when I was a teenager, and this just became a passion, learning not only about North Africa, but about generalship and getting into archives, digging into some old material. So it's been a passion for a long time. I've focused a lot on Montgomery and Rommel's generalship, but my master's thesis focused on the battle of the bulge and or other areas of conflict that I'm interested in as well, like the Vietnam War and other things.
00:02:38:10 - 00:02:45:14
Speaker 2
So it really took off in terms of getting interested in and different kinds of war and different periods of history.
00:02:45:14 - 00:02:58:13
Speaker 1
Without giving too much away. What's the unique historical lens that you're using to approach General Montgomery, and what are you hoping to with your work around his generalship that folks are taking away about him and about the era?
00:02:58:13 - 00:03:19:21
Speaker 2
I want people to to get a different view of Montgomery. I don't think that history has really shown his best qualities. I think that there's been a fair amount of prejudice against him, and I'm hoping that people get a new, fresh take about him, his abilities and his personality and and also his style as a commander and how he motivated people.
00:03:19:23 - 00:03:45:02
Speaker 2
In my next book, Monty's Flying Fortress. I really just wanted to tell the story of how this very ordinary general just bonded with his US air crews. I do address some of the political backbiting that was going on among the top Allied commanders at that time. But most of all, in my next book, I'm hoping that readers will come away with a different view of Monty and just an appreciation of the American airmen who flew him.
00:03:45:03 - 00:03:50:16
Speaker 1
What were the public perceptions of General Montgomery at the time, and how have they changed since his service?
00:03:50:18 - 00:04:14:09
Speaker 2
I think that he got a little bit of an exaggerated reputation for being a rude person, or someone that didn't really communicate well with people. He was actually a very gifted communicator, spoke different languages, was able to work across different international boundaries, and there was a lot of rivalry between top Allied commanders at the time. Different people wanting more publicity than other people.
00:04:14:11 - 00:04:27:01
Speaker 2
And I think some of that has filtered through history. So just going back and taking a look at the original materials and things has given me a different perspective, and I hope that other people might learn new things as well.
00:04:27:01 - 00:04:31:01
Speaker 1
How do you go about tackling such a big subject? Where does one even start?
00:04:31:02 - 00:04:44:15
Speaker 2
I like to go back to the original sources. I read as many primary sources as possible and also go to archives when I can. Secondary literature is also very important, but there's really nothing that beats going back to the primary sources and seeing that material for yourself.
00:04:44:16 - 00:04:51:01
Speaker 1
You mentioned that Montgomery had command of multiple languages. You yourself speak both English and German, if I'm not mistaken.
00:04:51:06 - 00:04:51:22
Speaker 2
Yes I do.
00:04:52:00 - 00:05:01:14
Speaker 1
How is your command of both of those languages provided you with a unique or often overlooked perspective when your research and interpreting different sides of the different conflicts?
00:05:01:16 - 00:05:35:05
Speaker 2
German is a very precise language, and I think what people don't realize also, at the same time, it's very passionate and very poetic. And I also think that German culture is very understated. It's very subtle. Sometimes you can say a lot more with less. And so I personally find German really beautiful for that reason, because it's quite elegant and because of these nuances, sometimes it's hard for translators to bring out both the precision of German and also the emotion at the same time.
00:05:35:10 - 00:06:02:03
Speaker 2
So sometimes what you'll get is translations that are very dry. And this is something that I encountered when I was reading translated work of Rommel's writing and comparing it to the originals. I think in some cases, bad translations and just plain lack of translations have created inaccurate impressions of the German experiences of World War Two. And so I like to go back and read those documents as well, and try and offer new translations when I can.
00:06:02:04 - 00:06:08:01
Speaker 1
When it comes to Montgomery, for example. Are there any primary or secondary sources that you've looked at that speak about it?
00:06:08:02 - 00:06:31:14
Speaker 2
I think it's actually pretty interesting to see what he wrote himself. I think that he's been interpreted by other people as basically being a pretty weird guy, and there's been a lot of rumors, but when you actually go back and read the materials that he wrote and he wrote a lot and listened to different speeches and so on, and kind of engage with the thoughts that he expressed about War Command.
00:06:31:16 - 00:06:58:17
Speaker 2
It's really quite different from the reputation that other people gave him. So I think that just speaks to the importance of going back to those sources and making up your own mind and seeking them out for yourself, instead of just reading things from the secondary sources. I know that other commanders at the time were kind of jockeying for public attention and authority, and they all race to put out books after the war and were kind of denigrating each other and so on.
00:06:58:23 - 00:07:08:09
Speaker 2
And so it's important to go back for yourself and see what people actually wrote and produce themselves, instead of just picking up on rumors that came about after the war.
00:07:08:10 - 00:07:16:08
Speaker 1
I think it's fascinating to think about all these sources, all these nuances. What do you feel that someone that only speaks English or only one language is missing? Well, I.
00:07:16:08 - 00:07:41:11
Speaker 2
Can say with the German that when you don't have a good translation of German available or you're limited, you're really stuck with whatever translation that you can find. And sometimes those translations aren't completely accurate, or they don't really bring out the nuances. So I think if you want to study any kind of history or just just in general, it's always great to learn another language and can engage with that so you can understand the meaning for yourself.
00:07:41:13 - 00:08:08:19
Speaker 2
In terms of German, it also is a little bit difficult for people if there are translations available that are not accurate or missing information, and also sometimes translations that were produced by people later on, who members of the Nazi regime who were involved in war crimes, for example, those people like former SS officers, would produce inaccurate histories after the war.
00:08:08:21 - 00:08:25:03
Speaker 2
And so on. And so it's very important to be very discerning when you're looking at different German sources that are available in English from particular time periods and and cross-referencing your sources to make sure that you're getting accurate and factual information.
00:08:25:03 - 00:08:37:09
Speaker 1
You've covered some just enormous towering figures in these conflicts. Is there a smaller figure, maybe, or a smaller action that you think deserves more attention than it's currently receiving that you come across?
00:08:37:09 - 00:09:01:02
Speaker 2
This isn't quite a smaller action is actually a rather large at the battle of the bulge. It was huge. But during this huge offensive, I do believe that the British and American troops who fought in what is called the northern shoulder of the bulge, have been really overlooked of the accomplishments of the U.S. First and Ninth armies. I don't think that's really had a lot of justice done to it in history.
00:09:01:03 - 00:09:08:15
Speaker 2
There's a lot of bravery that's gone unnoticed. And so I'm hoping to address the northern sector of the bulge in a future book.
00:09:08:15 - 00:09:19:21
Speaker 1
You wrote about an American soldier who helped to save Charlemagne's cathedral in World War Two. What does a story like that tell us about the human element, the cultural restoration that happens during global conflict?
00:09:19:21 - 00:09:44:12
Speaker 2
I really liked writing that story because it showed the power of history and culture to heal the scars of war. I think if anything, it really demonstrates the universal importance of history to all of us. History is a very powerful thing, and even during the war, people were doing their best to preserve cultural artifacts. At the same time, though, I think it's important to remember that objects are never more important than people.
00:09:44:14 - 00:10:05:19
Speaker 2
For example, in Nuremberg, the Nazis, they created this secret art bunker underneath the city that had these huge bomb proof tunnels that they used to hide works of art and artifacts taken from all over Europe. I took a tour there, but then I also visited a cemetery on the outskirts of town, where they had buried a lot of German civilians who were killed in air raids, and it was really tragic.
00:10:05:20 - 00:10:24:11
Speaker 2
There were a lot of very small children under the age of five. Elderly people buried their whole families. And it occurred to me that, you know, those tunnels that they used to hide the artwork, and those could have been used to save more civilians from the bombings, but instead the Nazis just saw the objects as the treasures and not their own people.
00:10:24:11 - 00:10:34:02
Speaker 2
So I think it's important to remember that, yeah, artifacts and cultural preservation is really important, but nothing really can make up for a human life that's lost.
00:10:34:03 - 00:10:36:03
Speaker 1
What were you feeling as you walked the halls there?
00:10:36:04 - 00:10:59:04
Speaker 2
It was just this huge, enormous cemetery on the outskirts of, of Nuremberg. And it was really tragic because there were people from all different nationalities buried there. There was some American soldiers buried there. There were a lot of Russian and Soviet P.O.W. or German civilians. There were German soldiers. It was kind of like all of these different nationalities were buried there in this one place.
00:10:59:04 - 00:11:15:10
Speaker 2
And it really drove the war home to me in a lot of ways, just seeing the destruction that it cost for everyone. It was a very moving experience. I'm glad that I went, and it really made things come alive to me in a different way, just to see all of that firsthand.
00:11:15:11 - 00:11:27:04
Speaker 1
I want to turn the lens, if I could, to the work that you're doing today. I know that you have a book coming, but you also work for defense news and journalism. Is there a common thread that you're weaving into your current body of work that's informed by the.
00:11:27:04 - 00:11:49:16
Speaker 2
Past in terms of defense news? I think that there is some overlap with military history, because the history of war will shed light on war today. So as a military historian, I enjoy getting to analyze new things that are going on and comparing and contrasting these with previous conflicts, whether that's tactics or technology or just new methods of fighting.
00:11:49:18 - 00:12:14:19
Speaker 2
Technology continues to change the way that we're fighting wars, but some things always stay the same. And sometimes history seems to repeat itself. So it's interesting to to look at what's going on now and see if there are lessons we can draw on from the past that might help us and inform us about how we might use new technology, or what's the best way to position ourselves strategically as these new threats are emerging.
00:12:14:20 - 00:12:31:12
Speaker 1
You've written a lot about FPV or first person view drones and modern conflicts. How is that changing the battle landscape? How is it changing the experience for the warfighter? And what is battle look like, do you think? And five, ten, 15 years?
00:12:31:13 - 00:12:56:11
Speaker 2
I think FPV drones represent a revolution in military affairs. They're putting long range striking weapons in the hands of almost anybody. Some military theorists are looking at them as though they're just ammunition, but they're more than just basic projectiles. They can travel very long distances. They can take evasive action. And most importantly, in my view, they can conduct surveillance.
00:12:56:15 - 00:13:19:16
Speaker 2
So I think that's what the biggest problem will be. Not every bad actor will be willing or able to put explosives on to a drone, but surveillance will be very easy, and the path of least resistance for a lot of people who are up to no good. So I think it will be a growing challenge for law enforcement and also for the military, and that more people just in the general public will want to protect themselves from drones.
00:13:19:18 - 00:13:50:07
Speaker 2
In terms of war. Introduce a new form of mobile warfare because they make strong points, basically irrelevant. But at the same time, we shouldn't overestimate FBI drones. Many of them are susceptible to very simple things like the elements, the weather. A lot of them can be stopped by very basic physical barriers. So I'm interested in watching this technology develop and see what solutions are developed by the military and law enforcement and dealing with threats from FPV drones as they continue to get more advanced.
00:13:50:08 - 00:14:03:16
Speaker 1
I want to turn to the next generation, to those that are considering maybe a career in military history, in nonfiction writing. What kind of advice would you give to someone that's considering a career or pursuing that passion today?
00:14:03:17 - 00:14:28:12
Speaker 2
I would say be your own master. Don't settle for I promise. Don't settle for other people telling you what to think or how to think. Your own impressions and your own experience are going to bring things to the table that nobody else has. So get your hands on original sources. Make a point of seeing original documents, and when you interact with historical documents, it's like having a conversation with the past, and nobody else can have that conversation for you.
00:14:28:13 - 00:14:33:22
Speaker 2
So my advice is to engage with history first hand as much as you possibly can.
00:14:34:00 - 00:14:41:00
Speaker 1
You've been working on a fascinating project to do with war graves in the Berlin area. Can you share a little bit more?
00:14:41:00 - 00:15:07:19
Speaker 2
So I usually volunteer with research and writing for the German War Graves Commission, and they introduced me to this project with the Berlin police. And this was the first time that I was asked to help with a very active search like this. One of the most challenging things about this project was just trying to piece together the truth out of statements that were given by the police official who was responsible for the killings of four policemen in Berlin.
00:15:08:00 - 00:15:36:22
Speaker 2
The Nazis had these men executed right at the very last moments of the war. We were trying to locate their resting place in Berlin, and it was difficult because the perpetrator who ordered this, his name was Alfred von der Sloot. He told completely different stories to US Army investigators and also to a German court later. All the details were different in his statements, and so it was really difficult to get a clear picture of exactly what happened.
00:15:36:23 - 00:15:57:06
Speaker 2
We know that they were shot and buried in this certain area, a very vast area. But in terms of trying to glean how exactly it happened and get clues, it was tough. The only thing that was consistent was the time that he said he arrived back at as HQ on foot, since we we knew that he had been left there without a vehicle.
00:15:57:08 - 00:16:24:03
Speaker 2
After the men were executed. So I hope the police, by making some little analysis document, sending them research, sending them aerial imagery. And so I used the time estimate that von der old had provided to US Army investigators and others, and used this to make some calculations that help the police narrow down the search zone. Unfortunately, the remains have not been located, but I think that this brings up something important.
00:16:24:03 - 00:16:49:01
Speaker 2
When you're dealing with Nazi war criminals as your sources. A long time ago, I studied criminology and I learned something that really helps me whenever I'm analyzing materials that were created by Nazi Party officials or other suspected of war crimes or criminal behavior. It's called the ABC rule. So that stands for assume nothing, believes nobody, and challenge everything.
00:16:49:03 - 00:17:14:01
Speaker 2
And I'm not saying to assume that all sources that you come across are lying. That's definitely not helpful. But in many cases, when people were implicated in Nazi war crimes, they would try to mislead and deceive other people, or they would blame their associates who conveniently happened to be dead or missing. Some of the statements that were made by Nazi war criminals would give you the impression that they had just stepped out of the office for a moment while their boss was plotting murder.
00:17:14:03 - 00:17:35:01
Speaker 2
They gave really misleading statements. So when you're analyzing materials created by suspected Nazi war criminals, just be prepared to encounter lies. Question the sources and motives and definitely cross-check information against other sources. It's unfortunate that the remains haven't been found, but I'm still holding out hope that maybe someday they'll be located.
00:17:35:03 - 00:17:43:00
Speaker 1
You had some images on your website. I think they were aerial photographs that had never, I think, been seen before. Is that right? What was it like to open those?
00:17:43:01 - 00:18:05:04
Speaker 2
It was pretty incredible. It was also challenging because they hadn't been open. So the canisters are really tough to crack open. It was a that was a challenge. So it was really fascinating to just see what the sky looked like back on just to to take the film out. There's, a really strong smell of chemicals just to pull them out of the canister and, just lighting them up on the screen.
00:18:05:04 - 00:18:07:00
Speaker 2
I thought, wow, this is really amazing.
00:18:07:00 - 00:18:12:03
Speaker 1
Looking to the future Zita you have your book coming out, what else can folks look forward to in 2026?
00:18:12:04 - 00:18:29:02
Speaker 2
So my next book, Monty's Flying Fortress, will definitely be out by then. I'm not sure what my next book will be. My next World War Two book will focus on the battle of the bulge, and I'm also continuing to write for the German War Graves Commission, and I'm working on another historical article for them that will be published next April.
00:18:29:02 - 00:18:33:12
Speaker 1
Before we close. How can listeners follow you? Stay connected and support your work?
00:18:33:12 - 00:18:49:09
Speaker 2
People can follow me on LinkedIn and also, a great way to stay up to date with my writing is to follow me on my website at swgi to steel.com. I post my articles there, my books and also I create blog posts there as well. So that's a great way to stay up to date with what I'm up to.
00:18:49:11 - 00:18:54:02
Speaker 1
Awesome. We'll see. It's been fantastic chatting with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
00:18:54:04 - 00:19:01:06
Speaker 2
Thank you so much for having me.
00:19:01:08 - 00:19:14:07
Speaker 1
Thanks so much for tuning in. Story. Behind the Stone is available on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on the Rise Across America Radio Network on iHeartRadio. Audacity and tune in to search for wreath.
00:19:14:09 - 00:19:15:10
Speaker 1
Thank you for tuning in.