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Two friends. Two cities. Two perspectives on what it means to thrive.
Guys Like Us is a podcast about the pursuit of a good life—messy, meaningful, and real. Hosted by Marc in New York and Paul in Vienna, it’s where two longtime friends reflect on life, work, relationships, and the moments that shape us.
Each week, we bring a story with a point. Sometimes it’s funny. Sometimes it’s a little raw. But it always comes from a place of curiosity, honesty, and earned perspective.
We believe a good life isn’t just about pleasure—it’s about presence. It’s about friendship that’s been built and maintained across continents. It’s about failures that taught us more than wins. It’s about food and wine, sure—but also doubt, joy, regret, growth, and showing up anyway.
This is a podcast for people trying to live fully—whatever that means to them. One story at a time.
Paul Fattinger (00:11)
Good evening everybody and welcome to Guys Like Us.
The podcast, it is about to get real. We are in episode seven. That's already beating almost 47 % of, know, more than 47 % of everyone who's ever tried to do podcasting. And we're gonna be, yeah, and we're gonna, you know, go seriously live very soon. Because I'm going to New York next week, Mark. I know I'm come over there and haunt you. I'm gonna give record some stuff and then we are going to release this baby for real.
Marc Winter (00:30)
Wow, that's amazing.
We're excited, amazing. That's right,
that's right. How are you?
Paul Fattinger (00:47)
So we have an amazing
episode today. How are you? I'm fine man. How are you?
Marc Winter (00:51)
Yeah.
Good. Good. It's ⁓ it's Labor Day weekend here in the States. So we have got Monday off. Yeah. Sucking honor of the laborers. ⁓ It is a beautiful ⁓ summer day. I think we're to have awesome weather when you're here. It's like that cool, perfect New York kind of not too hot sun everywhere. Amazing families here. And ⁓ yeah, I'm excited to dig in. You know, it's funny for this one.
Paul Fattinger (00:57)
I didn't realize.
fantastic.
Marc Winter (01:19)
Knowing the theme I chose a very apropos place, which is my dad's Biakela, which he built for himself ⁓ in Morristown, New Jersey. So it's not the Fals or some other Knaipa somewhere, it's New Jersey.
Paul Fattinger (01:34)
It's an amazing place.
Before we started I I remember this place very well, although I got very... It was a lot of fun at your wedding actually. We retreated into this beer cellar or cellar at one point, I think at least. It's the only time I've ever been there, your wedding, so I think you must have been there that night.
Marc Winter (01:45)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's true. We're
gonna engineer a visit too while you're here. But I'm glad that you didn't annihilate enough brain cells at my wedding to remember that you at least were here.
Paul Fattinger (01:59)
No, it was so great. I
will always remember that. was an amazing, an amazing weekend. A lot of, in a few days. I mean, is there a bear hanging behind you? Okay.
Marc Winter (02:08)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's
a real black bear. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. My dad's friend shot it.
Paul Fattinger (02:12)
Okay, here you go. So how was your week?
You went to California?
Marc Winter (02:16)
No, no, no, no,
no. was supposed to go to California. I didn't. But no, no, no. I ended up just staying, which I was actually happy. Happy I did. It was a week of milestones. So I had to celebrate my wedding anniversary. My son, Valentin, celebrated his first birthday. And yesterday I took my dad out to a concert in Madison Square Garden with my brother. And we went to go see The Who.
Paul Fattinger (02:19)
Are you didn't?
Marc Winter (02:46)
play one of their final show. Yeah, it was amazing. ⁓ And a little inspiration for our listeners, because I was like, these guys are still fucking playing. I could not imagine, right? You know, and I knew it was one of my dad's favorite bands, you know, and I was like, how old do you think? Yeah, I was gonna ask you, 70s. Okay, Pete Townsend, the guitarist, 80 years old. Roger Daltry, the lead singer.
Paul Fattinger (02:49)
Wow, man.
How old are those guys? 70s. Yeah.
Marc Winter (03:15)
81 years old. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, playing for two hours, you know, singing, you know, all the the great hits, Babu O'Reilly, you know, won't get fooled again, you know, like Pinball Wizard.
Paul Fattinger (03:17)
Holy cow. That's impressive, man. That's impressive.
I mean, the way they treated their bodies, we would be 100 easily.
Marc Winter (03:35)
That's what I was,
you know, well, yeah, I mean, let's put it this way. I'm more optimistic about. Yeah, that's a whole other topic about what happens when you have purpose in your life can probably transcend any kind of fails. Pete Townsend was wondering. Pete Townsend was wondering aloud, by the way, just as a quip. He's like, said, I don't know what you guys do for a living. He's like, but
Paul Fattinger (03:41)
Yeah. Yeah.
And I think that's I fully agree, right? And that's what happens in your brain and in your mind rather than your body. Awesome. You know?
Mm.
Marc Winter (04:04)
This is a work for me. This is the easiest thing ever. As a matter of fact, I don't even know why we're stopping. I was like, well, maybe because you're lead singers, like, you know, huffing and puffing on his last legs. But it was an amazing time. Great time with dad. Great time with my brother.
Paul Fattinger (04:09)
animal.
That is amazing and a great, mean, know, funnily enough we had a... ⁓
I love how our topics come out naturally. I love our long list of ideas we have. And guys, we do have a long list of ideas. And if you want to add to it, and some of our early listeners have, ⁓ friends of ours who have asked, so what could we talk about? And they wrote lists to me. So if anyone's listening to this, or anybody's listening to this, shoot us an email or comment wherever you listen to this, about topics that you think would be interesting.
for us to talk about, which is really weird if there was anything, but it's very self-depreciating. No, I'm serious. Maybe people have ideas. Exactly. I spent some time with my parents. I'm going to get to this. But, you know, I went to conference beginning of the week, which was fun. And we're to talk about this too at one point. And I spent a... On Thursday, I went with my dad and my son, my oldest son.
Marc Winter (04:58)
Yeah.
That's your personal brand. But you spent some time with your parents, right? With your dad.
Paul Fattinger (05:23)
to a very beautiful place in Styria in the mountains ⁓ where my oldest son did a fly fishing course.
Marc Winter (05:32)
Wow, fun.
Paul Fattinger (05:33)
And we went together with my dad's cousin, his son-in-law and his grandson, is my son's age. Our son's age. So there was three generations, two pairs of three generations, stemming from one great grandfather to the, for the little ones, a great grandfather for the little ones. And lots of stories, beautiful, almost a stereotypical son and dad activity to do fly fishing, something I think I'm going to get into.
Marc Winter (05:36)
Mm. Mm.
Paul Fattinger (06:03)
because
it's so serene and beautiful and it's really it's insane it is unreal now it's really really cool and you know especially when you have you know you you have two boys it's something that's it's got something i know it's almost cliche but it's got something so and that got us to this topic and you posted something this week on linkedin which is just very relevant to to what we're going to talk about today which is you know how do we connect to
Marc Winter (06:05)
Yeah
I'd love to try it actually.
Paul Fattinger (06:30)
I think, you know, primarily our parents, but to all the generations with kind of the idea that we walk around every day knowing that there's so much wisdom and stories and things that they could tell us. And usually we only realize when they're gone that we've never asked or they never told us. And so this is kind of the topic we want to dive in today.
However, before we do that, I saw you drinking something and it looked like a shot. So I am very curious to hear who you are sponsored by today.
Marc Winter (06:53)
It's true.
Well, I was like, I was like, I need I
need I needed a sponsor and it's funny I was gonna be a smart ass because I'm down with my dad's bar and I was realizing oh he has all these beautiful like empty bottles of TNL oh and when a while the girl been funny fun if there was something there but actually I just poured myself a just a little shot of Williams beer and brand. Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (07:26)
Willi Pienaar.
Fantastic German.
Marc Winter (07:29)
Yes.
the... from the false. From... where is this from? Nederkirchen. Okay. You know, who knows? Yeah. What about you?
Paul Fattinger (07:38)
Anyways.
I am sponsored by Birgit Braunstein, called, is a Chardonnay from Burgenland. Very simple, bio, de-meter. But it's only half a glass because, you know, my father and my uncle, they were really not shy on the wine.
Marc Winter (07:58)
Did they empty your vicar cabinet?
Paul Fattinger (08:01)
Yeah,
no, not mine, but we were there and it was like a consistent flow and I had to give up. Actually, they were and they killed me in the schnapps every night, know, for repair, Schwartz, ANTIA, all the, know, and I feel really bad, know, towards our listeners because the last time we talked, I felt similarly, but I thought this time I'm not going to chicken out. I'm going to say cheers with one, you know, glass of wine and the second one said cheers.
Marc Winter (08:06)
Yeah.
my god. my god.
Cheers. Well, I've got to have a shot.
Paul Fattinger (08:31)
Cheers!
Marc Winter (08:32)
Cheers.
Paul Fattinger (08:32)
is my little very small herb garden which I came back to and saw a mint plant like basically two feet tall so I harvested it and made a little fresh mint tea. That's the other one. So here we go.
Marc Winter (08:42)
Sick.
my god, okay good.
So you're blending your poison with mother's nature. Wonderful.
Paul Fattinger (08:53)
Exactly. Alright. So,
how do we start into this? Because it's such a big topic and we were saying when we started, let's not make this too big, but maybe we start right away with, you know, there's something, you know, you've been working on lately or over the past year or so and you've told me and you got out with this on LinkedIn this week, this past week, so tell us about it.
Marc Winter (09:08)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Totally. ⁓ So actually, you when I said this was a week of milestones, I left one off. ⁓ And that was the launch ⁓ of The Great Reflection, which is ⁓ a real near and dear project of mine that I've been after for, gosh, almost a year and a half. you know, it started with, you know, I think like we all know and that our parents or our elders, like people, the generation of our family,
a lot of them are getting a little bit older. think all of us are kind of at that age where it's hitting a little bit harder. And I was thinking this generation, especially like mine, are mostly immigrants, right? Who came from Europe to the States. There's inherently some interesting stories about that, right? Like making them move, making the decision, why they move there.
And I felt like, there's got to be an awesome and great and compelling way to capture that in a way that's different. And, you know, the idea came to me about a year and a half ago. was thinking to myself, you know, wouldn't be amazing if I could get.
⁓ an incredibly skilled interviewer, you know, here are the states we would say like an ira glass we would say, you know, terry groves, know, howard stern or david levin john stuart like Part like late night talk shows in the sense of like you can hold space and make people feel comfortable and at the same time like a thoughtful kind of interviewer has the curiosity to go really kind of deep
Paul Fattinger (10:53)
Mm.
Marc Winter (10:54)
I said, you know, someone famous can come in here and interview my family. They would surface an incredible series of stories. Like I was just sure and confident of it. And it took me about a year to find that person. And I did. And this January ⁓ arranged for him to come in and fly in and interview my dad. And we didn't really know what was going to come out of it. It was a bit of a risk, but I figured, you know, a third party would be.
kind of essential here. And the reason why is, you know, I've seen a lot of pieces of parents trying to, you know, interviewing their, sorry, kids trying to interview their parents or their grandparents. There's nothing wrong with that. You know, I think there's a lot of greatness in that, but there's something about the officialness of meeting someone and kind of opening some space and putting you in the head space to tell a story.
that's authentically you and have someone else who doesn't quite know you, but it's briefed enough to kind of push a little bit. And I was kind of confident that results would be great. And, what came out was pretty remarkable. was eight, nine hours of video, which we transcribed into a series of six podcasts that are thematic. And I said, wow, this is really amazing. And yeah, yeah, yeah. Six times one hour.
Paul Fattinger (11:52)
Mm.
Like 6 times 1 hour basically, what? Okay.
Marc Winter (12:16)
And they're all themed, you know, like from the beginning to the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's audio, which is really...
Paul Fattinger (12:17)
It's like a small documentary on it, no?
Is audio
only or did you do the video too? Okay.
Marc Winter (12:25)
Audio only. Actually
was done here. ⁓ In part because I think, I don't know, like, my dad that generation would be feeling a little probably discomfort also being recorded at the same time, you know, like let's...
Paul Fattinger (12:38)
I think everyone does a little bit. think everyone I've been talking to about podcasting
too says that it changes with video. It takes something away. And even with us, I mean, ⁓ it does something. I also did podcasts where there were two cameras on you and you are more worried about your posture. Exactly. Yeah.
Marc Winter (12:46)
Yeah.
Makes it little more self-conscious.
Totally. So anyway, yeah. So what came out were these like really, and know, the guy Chris Everett who I found is, you know, an amazing composer, you know, as an artist, you know, you know, he has his own kind of brand and design work, but also, you know, it's his own farm outside of Minneapolis, Minnesota, you know, where, you know,
their goats, he's part of nature and he also invites artists to do their residencies there so he's just a well-connected very human person lovely guy and has a curiosity about about human beings and how they change and so
Paul Fattinger (13:26)
Beautiful, beautiful man.
I mean, I think I've,
sorry, I've told this, I've said this before, but I think it's such a beautiful way also. And for you and the such a Mark thing combining so much love for the people that close to you with creativity and smartness and kindness, it's a very beautiful thing. It's thing that's very touching.
Marc Winter (13:54)
sweet.
Paul Fattinger (13:55)
Super cool you did that and I can't wait to I mean I think I listen to part of it once you showed me when I was When when we met I think one of these times, but it's an amazing thing So but let me ask you I I know you did it also as kind of a Almost a gift, right? It wasn't that one is a birthday of your dad's and it was a gift
Marc Winter (14:04)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's how it started.
Paul Fattinger (14:18)
Yeah, and you know what funny is like I went we went to To see friends, you know as kind of a tradition because tomorrow is first day of school for us
Back to school and so we went up in the the in the Viennese vineyards and and I said, you know I gotta be back soon because we're gonna record today these friends asked what you're gonna talk about and blah blah blah and I said about this and Mark just launched just and his friend of my marriage She said I you know my dad he also would have so many stories, you know I wonder if you could interview him one day or someone else so and and what I know your dad and he's a very
Marc Winter (14:27)
Mmm, mmm. Crosses Thursday.
Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (14:55)
a guy who likes to talk and to entertain and he's fun and you it's not like you you wouldn't be like you have to draw words out of him but still you also felt that someone else could do it better than you. No, every story might have been told to you. What do you think is there? And obviously I'm hinting to a problem I've perceived personally that I've gotten very little out of my parents I feel sometimes in that respect.
Marc Winter (14:57)
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think it's funny and not to this, here's a simple bifurcation, I think, and which is ⁓ probably not true, but I'm gonna just throw it out to see what you think. I feel like those who have had traumas, everyone has had traumas usually at that point in time, know, some worse than that. My dad lost his mom ⁓ at 12 and my mom lost her dad at eight, you know, just in parallel.
Paul Fattinger (15:34)
Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah.
Marc Winter (15:51)
My mother would have an incredibly tough time sitting down with a third stranger to talk through that and relive through that. And that's just not something that I think she's keen to do. She might gloss over some other stuff, maybe. And my dad has had his lovely siblings and I think has been living with that, but it's still comfortable enough to talk about something like that for his own, to even go on a podcast and talk about it. And... ⁓
Paul Fattinger (16:02)
Hmm.
Marc Winter (16:18)
But underneath that, to be really reductive, think, and I'm not saying this to your parents, but very often, I think I find when people really kind of closed up and there's something there, ⁓ they're still working on something. And I think it's harder to get people to make the space to kind of open up in that way. That's my hypothesis, overly simplistic.
Paul Fattinger (16:47)
And do you think
I hear you? basically what I'm understanding is, especially this generation, then, mean, note your parents are what year? They're born in...
Marc Winter (16:59)
My dad is
76, so he's 49, and my mom was 52. Sorry, born in 52, so she's 73.
Paul Fattinger (17:05)
Okay.
Yeah. And with their story and being immigrant, are born in 55, so they just turned 70 this year, quite young. They had me quite young and I was the old chad. that's their trauma, exactly. That's why they're not talking to me.
Marc Winter (17:09)
I'm yours.
That's their trauma. That's why they're talking to you. Finally
he figures it out.
Paul Fattinger (17:26)
No, no, no. So I think there
is, there is that part. What I'm hearing from you is, know, they, went through a lot and it's just not easy to open up for them in general and to put someone there that is, know, does this in a professional way and knows how to do this, changes something. And that's for sure. Speaking a little bit out of my, you know, my, my corner, I have a feeling that my parents find it easier to tell someone else or to speak to someone else about their stories.
Marc Winter (17:34)
Yeah.
Peace.
Paul Fattinger (17:55)
than they do probably to us as their kids. And I wonder if there is something there that you speak or you view your kids differently in a sense almost also oversimplified. And that was a theory my friend tonight said they still see us as their kids and not so much as ⁓ equals. And you're nodding. And I even have a story to this to back this up. Just give me a second. Yeah.
Marc Winter (18:05)
100%.
Well, well, well, let me clip on. I want to hear your story.
I think like when you fail to transition out of parenting and teaching your your kids lessons, you know, and guiding them, you know, to then to having them as friends and cook, you know, like. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (18:34)
Mm.
Marc Winter (18:37)
That to me is really interesting. And I see a lot of relationships, I think, stuck in that gear. would say I'm actually probably stuck in that gear with my mom. But I wanna hear your story. Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (18:47)
man, definitely. Definitely. No, it was just evidence to
that. Evidence to that today we said at lunch, and it was my uncle, so was my dad's cousin, and we were talking about my hike that I did three, four weeks ago. And I had talked about the hike and about the places I went to with my parents a thousand, know, ten times, especially also about that place. And then all of a sudden, my dad is, you know, on that lake, your grandfather...
Marc Winter (19:05)
Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (19:15)
was hunting there because blah blah blah and was a long story about who he worked for and knew and blah blah. But three weeks ago when we talked about that freaking lake, you know, for an hour, that wouldn't come up. It was so interesting. yeah, and I think that that might have to do something with that.
Marc Winter (19:28)
amazing.
Paul Fattinger (19:36)
And then I guess my dad probably is a little bit more closed up and every time when I thought about this, when I really heard him tell stories, it was in a group with other people.
Marc Winter (19:47)
Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (19:47)
And that's
what I really enjoyed as a kid. And also later when I went hunting with him for the first time and the only time 20 some years ago, and you would sit together with all the other hunters and, know, talk and, I would finally hear my dad tell stories. And I was like, this is fucking cool. I know I almost want more of this. And it never really happened like this on the table at home. So I'm thinking.
Marc Winter (20:08)
Hmm
Hmm.
You know.
Paul Fattinger (20:15)
I could do this. Maybe what you just said is a great idea too.
Marc Winter (20:19)
Well, there's
a, I think actually how we capture stories and surface them probably needs to change is probably the theory I'm holding on at least for this coming generation. So I had a big fight with my brother as we were designing this by the way ⁓ because my brother was like, this is like.
Paul Fattinger (20:36)
I remember.
Marc Winter (20:41)
They're all these, you can write a book. are all these services where they just talk, you know, we get prompted by AI and they'll capture it, right? And the guidance I said was like, basically, I don't want to read, no one's going to read a fucking book anymore. You know, if your dad writes your stories, you know, maybe you'll be curious to read it once, you know? But I think there's the power of having, and as you just said it, a voice tell a story in their own words.
with their own tone and when they feel emotional, when they reflect, I think that is amazing. I feel like ⁓ getting the challenges, of course, is your point. was getting people in the headspace and allowing them to open up to go do that. And I think you need to find people who who put can put their elders at ease, you know, so they would be open to that kind of thing. But I have to be honest with you. mean, a lot of my friends we talked about this would have trouble bridging.
The offer, even with their parents, you know? like, like the whole idea is like crazy.
Paul Fattinger (21:44)
Yes, and thank you, thank you, Mike. Thank you, Mike. And
what you just said is exactly what I thought is now we talked about our parents either being, you know, we kind of push it onto our parents because they're either stuck in trauma or they still see us as kids, right? So that's kind of was very convenient, right? If you think about it. But isn't there another one that we are just not, for whatever reason, daring to ask the questions?
Marc Winter (22:01)
Yeah, something with some first...
Yes, that's right.
Paul Fattinger (22:13)
Like, how was
this for you? What happened when? Like, my daughter, seven years old, not even, you know, very innocently, and I hope she continues doing this, like, asking me the other week, like, dad, how was it when I was born? How did you know I was in mom's belly? What happened when you went to the hospital? you know, luckily, you take your phone, you scroll back, know, 7th of November, 2018, and you go through the pictures and tell her, and they were her grandparents and so on, and I could tell her.
Marc Winter (22:16)
Yeah.
Right.
Paul Fattinger (22:43)
Do you think that's also, is that something that we don't dare to ask?
Marc Winter (22:48)
I agree. I don't think we're equipped. Many of us just aren't equipped to ask with the types, those types of questions to ask, you know, or often feel like they have permission to. And it's kind of interesting because part of me feels like a lot of mentorship and teaching, especially if that's your role as a parent. ⁓
I mean, it's evolving, right? Well, let's just say, I think modern perspectives is evolving. I feel, but personally for me, I love hearing, you know, if my dad would say, there were multiple times I had no idea what I was doing in life. That would feel really reassuring to me because he ended up okay. know, things I wish he would tell. know, did I do what I wish I could say to my dad? Hey, you know, was there a time, you know, that you...
Paul Fattinger (23:27)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I fully agree.
Marc Winter (23:39)
Was there a risk that you wish you made a bet you've, you you shied away from that you could wish you could do it over again. What would you take back and guidance that you would tell for me? And I realized that like, you know, without what I think he's doing in what he often shares with me is he's processing the memories, drawing the lessons out and delivering the guidance. All I get is the guidance. I don't get the story, the lesson that comes before the context precisely, precisely.
Paul Fattinger (24:03)
You'll get the context. And now
I'm also, I'm just thinking it's not always about the guidance itself, right? Sometimes it's also just to understand them better because understanding them and their history better also helps to understand ourselves better.
Marc Winter (24:20)
Yes.
Yes.
Paul Fattinger (24:26)
because
you kind of see certain things, you understand them better when they were small, when we were small, which is a lot of the things that we got, maybe also a little traumatized, because we also all are. And so you kind of get a better context of it all. And some things are just very plainly interesting. And I just got almost mad, because I think of the many hours I actually sat with my parents, especially this summer and last summer, and we would talk about the weather and something.
Marc Winter (24:38)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Paul Fattinger (24:56)
I got mad at myself not asking, saying let's stop talking about the fucking weather and whether there's gonna be a thunderstorm or not because it's gonna come anyways, right? So let's talk about, I don't know, have blah, blah, blah, right? So yes, I think there is a priority, man.
Marc Winter (25:08)
That's right. That's right. And with kids, gets worse
even, think, because now, like before, you just had to shift the conversation from the weather to something important. Now you just shift the conversation between like, yeah, they want to talk with what do they eat? Do they poop or whatever? And I'm like, okay, so the meaningful now you even have less time for that, you know? And.
Paul Fattinger (25:18)
And now you only talk about grandkids.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And
I gotta say though, my dad, when I went through my divorce, he stepped up and he came and he was sharing things and experiences of his life and he trying it.
It may was a bit late, but I also had not reached out. I was, know, my parents would have been one of the last people I actually told, finally enough. So, ⁓ but I think that's very specific about me. So, so they did, but as you said, they give guidance when need be. And sometimes just the context is interesting. And especially in my grandparents' generation, there was obviously with the war and actually, you know,
Marc Winter (25:53)
There you go.
Paul Fattinger (26:08)
There were so many stories about their parents in the First World War and so on, so my great grandparents. So there were so many things and so much context. And my grandfather, so my dad's dad, he actually did something very amazing. He wrote his memoirs. And he, when he was 70 years old, which is 30 years ago, yeah. Must've, yeah. ⁓
It was in 1920, so when he was 70s, it was 1990, that's 30 years ago. He started to, he bought himself an electronic typing machine, and in the end, even a computer when he was 80, and he typed it all, he typed it all down.
Marc Winter (26:47)
Incredible, incredible,
Paul Fattinger (26:49)
He tapped it
Marc Winter (26:49)
yeah.
Paul Fattinger (26:49)
all down and it's back there. And I have to think of a way to make it more accessible to the kids. Maybe I'm going to grab it printed. But it's really impressive. I mean, it's really, really impressive to read how he went to war and what he thought about it and how it was. you know, and he was, you know, he was in the first Poland thing, you know, the Nazis went there and what he thought about and crazy stuff.
And that's, you know, now over generations he kept this. the same, you know, I mean, now we talked a lot about our parents, but you said it before, how are we gonna transport the things that we, they're not so fancy. But I mean, there are things and I also kind of get it because it's sometimes...
Don't you sometimes have that feeling where you think, man, I really need to write this down, because this is some really great insight and I want to pass this on and now I'm 44 and I've seen some shit and I want to have a way to preserve this.
Marc Winter (27:40)
totally.
Okay, what question on that? So you hit on something that's really interesting. You said our lives are less interesting or we're on a less traumatic timeline globally. This is a statement that could get really old next week or two. Now I'm giving way the world is.
Paul Fattinger (28:05)
On the other hand, know, my kids think that it's totally
nuts that we didn't have a phone. So, what things have changed in our lives,
Marc Winter (28:11)
Yeah, yeah. Well, there's that too, you know. ⁓
That's true, but I mean, I would say like from your from your grandfather or great-grandfather, like, yeah, I'm just with this way. There weren't world wars. There weren't like a cold war that, you know, and I totally believe, you know, that book, The Body Keeps the Score, you know, like that that some of these traumas get passed on, et cetera, you know. And so there's a reason why your dad behaved the way you did or didn't behave, you know, and so on and so on. And I also agree that in this moment.
Paul Fattinger (28:20)
Yeah, more big war where we live.
Yeah.
Absolutely agree.
Mm.
Absolutely.
Marc Winter (28:45)
You know, we've been living in a time of relative peace and where shit doesn't happen to us, you know, like instead we have to make shit happen. And at least that's the frame I have in my mind. ⁓ And so in terms of the stories that I want to pass on, I do think a lot about legacy and what I think it would be a great pity, not that this is a full motivation, but to tell, you know,
when my time goes, my children think about my time in my life is not particularly interesting. I doubt that it'll happen, like that there's nice guy, he was a great dad, which is something that matters of course, and an autobiography that's 20 pages long versus 300.
Paul Fattinger (29:38)
You
Marc Winter (29:38)
That's a whole other podcast about ambition and et cetera, but it is interesting.
Paul Fattinger (29:40)
But I think it's in the eye beholder.
It is interesting, but of course to us it's very interesting, but what happened and it was inconceivable that you would, I don't know, like my dad went to boarding school from the age of 10 and he saw and spoke to his parents every two to three weeks. That's it. No phones, no nothing, you know.
Marc Winter (30:02)
Crazy. Crazy.
Paul Fattinger (30:04)
So, but you my kids will probably find it similarly crazy that I, you know, would use a phone.
at home with a attached to a cable that was shared with the neighbors in the beginning. So the neighbor was on the phone. You couldn't get on the phone, right? To call them up and say you meet at whatever 3 p.m. at a certain spot in town and off you go and you actually meet. You didn't text each other 15 times before that, right? It actually worked. So they might find that similarly weird or foreign.
Marc Winter (30:39)
No, totally. No, no, no, totally.
Paul Fattinger (30:41)
So that's, think that's, that's why it's all relative and, and arguably, and the changes that we are going through, we have been going through in the last 30 to 40 years.
Marc Winter (30:52)
okay, prediction. Here's what I think is gonna change. ⁓ My prediction is, is that modern tools like AI are totally gonna shape how it is that we capture and tell our story in a really great way. I see us, ⁓ I think one thing isn't going away obviously is that great book Sapien said, know, we're a storytelling species. That's how we capture and adjust information. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (30:54)
That's okay.
Marc Winter (31:19)
as we and I think it's only natural that parents that children covet the stories from their parents and they want to understand how they can find how they can better place themselves in this world. Right. I am fascinated by some of the most recent I'm curious to your take. ⁓ Stories about people uploading all everything their fathers ever you know some guys upload everything that his father's ever written.
Paul Fattinger (31:31)
Absolutely. 100%.
Marc Winter (31:49)
all the text messages, all the chats, et cetera, right? So that he can chat with him after he's dead through his own agent, you know, which is bananas, right? Like, and training his agent, yeah. And, you know, your eyes say everything, right? But like.
Paul Fattinger (32:08)
That's
insane. It's insane. But yeah.
Marc Winter (32:12)
I think that's the signal of the future. And I think as we start to experiment and play with these tools, what we will discover is that there are multiple modes of capturing, communicating and telling stories. Part of the spirit and the reason why I was really passionate and created the great reflection and inviting others into it to honestly know that it's out.
is I don't think anything will ever replace a human to human conversation. And, you know.
Paul Fattinger (32:45)
That's
very scary though that thought, it's very possible, right? mean, probably 90 % there.
Marc Winter (32:52)
Yeah, I mean, it's already science fiction, you like, uh, you could talk with your dead wife who died in a accident. can talk to, mean, like you can imagine it wasn't minority report and all that stuff. Like we're, we're close enough to deceive, uh, to create deceptions, you know?
Paul Fattinger (33:11)
But you think it's good thing?
Marc Winter (33:11)
So no,
but I say that with such great assurance, could it heal your trauma? it, could it, if, okay, if my father was a prolific businessman, I'm making it up, right? And I, you know, was inheriting a family business and, you he wrote loads of pages and documents. For some reason, I have the founder of IBM, Watson and mine.
something like this and I was steering the ship and, you know, could I just prompt the agent to say, Hey dad, know, tell me about a time, you know, what would you do in this moment given on past patterns and take comfort that it's kind of him. It's a little scary, but I think we're entering some phase of lived experience and, uh, documented technology, uh, you know, something interesting is going to happen.
Paul Fattinger (33:41)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Marc Winter (34:10)
Hahaha!
Paul Fattinger (34:12)
We certainly are. I'm just thinking of if I want to dare to put a judgment on this. I think, okay, in a business context, at the end, is all of AI, it's doing right now. And if you ask right now, what have the 10 greatest managers thought about topic XYZ is going to tell you that. So then if you feed...
some context that whatever you did or whoever wrote into it, that's what it is. But if you kind of take it to not close a wound, like you keep on talking to someone who's died, which is, know, that's something I think which is gonna not help you heal anything, it's gonna keep that wound open forever. And that is, I don't think is a great thing. But I mean, we might be also deviating from this, right? But...
Marc Winter (34:53)
100 %
Well, okay, why do tarot, slightly, but can I just ask you something?
Why is the tarot card business, why are there still those tarot card readers out there? They've existed for 500, 600 years, you know, to talk to the spirits. That's.
Paul Fattinger (35:12)
Yeah, fair enough. mean, I'm not saying
it's a yeah, obviously, because we do want to connect that it's hard to close and it's hard to accept loss and 100%.
Marc Winter (35:22)
Totally. I guess my point
is whether it's good or bad, I think I agree with you it's bad, obviously. But I human being, human nature will take it there. One way or the other.
Paul Fattinger (35:34)
Yeah, but I mean, when I said before, I said, how can I make what my...
Grandfather wrote, more accessible to my kids, it could be that I go and I feed all of this into an LLM and make a great Stefan Dietrich Vatlinger avatar that my kids can talk to and ask him questions about the war and how life was in 1920s when he grew up in Carinthia.
Marc Winter (35:44)
Mmm.
Totally. And by the way, they would love that. Yeah. See? It's like, needed two generations removed.
Paul Fattinger (36:06)
That'd be awesome, actually. That'd be awesome because they don't give people these things.
I think,
but yeah, yeah. Because that's just a different axis of information. It's not pretending you're speaking to a human being that you used to have an actual connection that you're still craving or you haven't got over the fact that it's not there anymore. I think that's two totally different things. That's awesome. That is awesome. You know what I'm also taking away from this is that
Marc Winter (36:17)
Like it's...
Correct.
Exactly.
Correct. Correct. Correct. I agree. Yeah.
Paul Fattinger (36:39)
I still have two grandmothers, in fact, who are 90 plus. One, unfortunately, she can tell you stuff, but it's probably completely bananas. It's like, you don't know, she doesn't need her, which is great. She keeps on referring to my father, her son-in-law, as... ⁓
Marc Winter (36:42)
Mmm.
Paul Fattinger (37:03)
Her sisters, which she thinks is my mom. So she thinks my mom is her sister. And she always says that she found such a great second husband, my dad, who was her first husband, who takes such great care of my mom's, her sister's kids, us. So it's completely, it's unreal. It's fun from the outside, but it's not fun for my mom. Who said, you know, it's very, very hard to have, kind of back to our topic, to have your mom.
Marc Winter (37:21)
my... Wow! Okay!
Paul Fattinger (37:34)
you know, a life but not being able to talk to her anymore. Not to be able to speak to your mother anymore and all you have to think about is how you take care of her. ⁓ But the other one is very much there and last year I did that actually when I left my job I had time and I very consciously drove there, sat down with her for an afternoon and just talked. Not about the past actually but current things.
And was awesome. that I haven't done in a year. That's the funny thing. For some reason, for some reason to me, I think sometimes is, and I also don't like going to this other grandma who is, you know, a little bit bananas because I don't like to be confronted with their, with their death. Freaks me out,
Marc Winter (38:19)
Their mortality? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I get that.
No, I get that too. But I think, look, the headline is, that I think surfacing something meaningful from them. Like I'm always struck by, or let me back up. I think the point is, I'm less interested personally. I'm curious if you can get your take on this. I don't actually care.
you know, what date they got married, you know, what their first job was like, like, like, you know, this sort of like, documentary documentation of, of, know, everything from A to B, what I want to care about is capturing the portrait and the essence of the human being. And, and like, so you get the character, you get the sense of the person, you know, ⁓ from a story from a story perspective. And, you know, the the facts.
be them what they are. To me, it's about the brushstrokes of the painting that I'm most curious about. That makes sense.
Paul Fattinger (39:22)
Yeah,
it does make sense and to me this takes me back to this kids and parents kind of role.
Marc Winter (39:29)
you
Paul Fattinger (39:33)
that we might be stuck in. Because what's interesting to me is getting to know them as people and not as parents. What did they do when they were not parents? So I love those stories when my dad said, back in the days when we, with his business partner, they did trainings for tax lawyers all over Austria and they drove to oddest places and then had fun. And when he tells this story that I never heard because I
Marc Winter (39:43)
That's right.
Paul Fattinger (40:03)
saw him coming back or not being there for the weekend but I didn't hear what he did as a 30-something year old driving around with his buddy you know and teaching some other people and then probably getting pissed and doing whatever right so that's kind of the context I would love to hear and and what I'm taking away from our conversation apart from you know the big you know grand thing that you can do to surface this is actually ask is actually ask
Marc Winter (40:06)
Hmm.
That's right.
That's right.
Paul Fattinger (40:29)
and go and make that effort and especially to my grandmother, go there, ask, take some time, ask, tell me again your story. How she went from Bohemia to Vienna to Graz to Wattner, totally crazy. Tell me your story, because I only know bits and pieces. And they would love it. That's one side. And the other side is maybe there is a way that we can document our big things that we somehow want to...
Marc Winter (40:57)
Yes.
Paul Fattinger (40:59)
capture. Not that we have to write a book right now, right? But for our kids.
Marc Winter (41:03)
No, but hey, you know what? I
actually think that's that's you nailed it, Paul. That's the that's the lesson for the for this one. I think like the call to action would be like write down the three, four questions that you're really have always wanted to ask and dare not really thought about, you know, and jot them down. Give your dad or your mom or your grandma of Williams and. ⁓
Paul Fattinger (41:24)
Yeah.
Exactly.
And for our very narcissistic listeners, create your own AI-powered avatar for your kids, so they can ask you things anytime and the trauma that you cause never heals.
Marc Winter (41:41)
Yeah, yeah exactly.
Thanks.
Paul Fattinger (41:49)
That's ⁓ great closing. A great closing. Alright man, thank you for this.
Marc Winter (41:49)
Exactly. ⁓
This is great. This is great. I loved it.
Paul Fattinger (42:00)
Have you thought about your Terminator needed of the week? Or do you want me to go first again so you can make something up on the fly?
Marc Winter (42:03)
Yes, 100%.
No, no, no, no, no, I've actually thought about it. ⁓ Pretty clear. Thanks for trying to call me out. I'm pretty good on the fly, think. OK, it's US Open season. I was actually, yeah, ⁓ well, we'll see if get lucky, but I'm jumping back in. It's actually Carlos is playing now as we speak. I'm sure he was up and so he's going to win, I think. Yeah, but ⁓ sorry, we're starting idiot first, right? Idiot has got to be medvedev. Did you guys?
Paul Fattinger (42:09)
Go ahead then.
Yeah, you are.
Coming too late for this.
animal.
Marc Winter (42:36)
see, do you not see this? mean, it's fine. 22,000 basically try to start a riot in, in the U S open with, you know, at one 10 in the morning, turning the whole stadium against the umpires. No, listen, the U S open is amazing for a lot of reasons. It's by far the wildest open. Well, maybe the Australian, which I've never been to, but you know, they have this famous drink it's called the honey deuce. You know what it is?
Paul Fattinger (42:37)
No, I didn't see it. No.
No.
Marc Winter (43:06)
It's
like, okay, so it's basically vodka, ⁓ like honeydew kind of mix, like in a spritz thing, and they've got like two melons, like they're shaped like tennis balls, and they dunk it in there that you kind of eat like you would an olive in a martini. And it costs $23, right? At minimum, you're having three or four of those during a match, right? Everyone is getting annihilated, you know, and ⁓ my God, and at 110, you know, every time.
Paul Fattinger (43:31)
really?
Marc Winter (43:36)
you know, when the crowd decides to turn against the umpire, they should get real pretty fast. You know how much they make off of honey deuces in the tournament I was reading the other day? They talked 12.5 million dollars selling these, selling these drinks. It's insane. Yeah, yeah, it's totally nuts.
Paul Fattinger (43:44)
Absolutely. No.
No.
No! This is insane! This is insane! This is insane! Okay,
that's a... I haven't really followed it yet, but I'm really getting into it now. I love it. I'm so excited. I think tennis has gotten so cool again, so fun with the next generation. Finally, finally. Man, I mean, my idiot of the week must be... You sent me this article today from the New York Times, which is headlined...
as in Austria government healthcare can look a bit like a spa.
I read through this and you see like a little video of three dudes on a treadmill looking into the woods, which is true. You can actually get a cure when they send you somewhere into the mountains for three weeks to take walks to get better, which is actually great for preventive medicine. But it also shows the stupidity of our system because on the other hand, no, no, on the other hand, I'm telling you, you can also wait for very, very important, you know,
x-rays or scans for eight months if you are not on the right kind of insurance. you know, we got broad health insurance in Austria for our US listeners, so everyone is health insured no matter what you do. Even if you, you know, when you work, the government pays for it, you pay for it actually with your taxes and then the government does it. But in the end,
You can get your private insurance, then your health care is a little better. And I always say it's much better. There's a third tier and that's when you know people and that's number one, because then in Austria you can get anything. that's, you know, everyone who is not working there, our system is not great and that system, I don't want to pin it on people, it's kind of idiotic in a sense because it costs a lot of money. But that's a whole different story. But it's funny how the perception is of the system outside of
Marc Winter (45:33)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Paul Fattinger (45:42)
in the US. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, great. And I wonder who is your terminator of the week then?
Marc Winter (45:42)
Yeah, it's always fun, right? read like, you know, yeah, some, US story of your system.
Alright, so look, normally I would just pick Roger Daltrey of The Who because, you know, or Pete Townsend of 80. That would be the obvious one. But I'm going to choose the general manager of Wolfgang Steakhouse, where we went to yesterday before. My father's name is Wolfgang and we took him to Wolfgang Steakhouse, which is founded by the waiter of Peter Wueger Steakhouse, one of the head waiters. He worked at Peter Wueger's for 40 years.
Paul Fattinger (45:57)
It would be very, yeah. ⁓
Hmm.
Mmm.
Marc Winter (46:21)
And then somehow in his late sixties decided, you know what? It's a fucking steakhouse. How complicated can it be? Plus I ran it. So I know the steak. I know this, et cetera, creates a far better version than the original. And, ⁓ it was, was, it was great. And, know, I went there classy, et cetera. And, ⁓ and, know, I'll create the manager for this. You know, I called ahead because I read online that they had a $35 corkage fee. Right. And I said,
Paul Fattinger (46:25)
Fuck that. Plus I ran it. Exactly.
Really?
Marc Winter (46:50)
$35, that's nothing. I can bring something like this, beautiful T &L or whatever. et cetera. So I called ahead of time and the manager was like, that's not true. That's crazy, right? My boss would kill me. That can't be right. And I said, I'm telling you, I'm looking at it online. He's like, show me when you're here. And he was like this rude Balkan guy. I come in there, sit down with my dad. Suddenly this guy shows up with this three piece Italian suit. He says, Mr. Winter, you're here to show me something, right? I said, what?
Paul Fattinger (46:54)
Hmm.
No.
Marc Winter (47:20)
I said then I was like, that's right. I fucking am I went to hear it I showed him of course I was right right and he looked at it was like AI is like AI and he grumbled right and he came back and he's like well Sorry, we have very nice wines here. You can order from the list, know, I said, yeah, no problem Anyway, he came back. He apologized. He said yeah, it's some other vocation that we closed that down and the AI scraped it, you know
Paul Fattinger (47:26)
And...
Yeah.
Marc Winter (47:45)
and he gave us desserts in the house. So, I mean, he was a tough Balkan motherfucker. He was wrong, but at least he comped us. You could get a Terminator.
Paul Fattinger (47:51)
So much for
the accuracy of the AI search results, right? And yeah, that's a good one. So my terminator is similar to this, you know, to the who lead. No, but also another guy, the guy who ran this fly fishing course is must've been in his seventies, late seventies. And he's been...
Marc Winter (47:55)
Yeah, exactly. ⁓
Amazing.
Paul Fattinger (48:13)
in doing this for 45 years and he basically is one of these guys who tells you his story and he always loved fishing and he was making his own flies for the fly fishing at home in a very small two-bedroom where his mom lived, his two kids lived, his wife lived and he was doing it on the kitchen table and at one point his wife told him, Nick, man, I mean, what are you gonna do with this?
Marc Winter (48:23)
Mm-hmm.
Paul Fattinger (48:38)
He's like, you know what, let's do business. And he started a business of doing flies, sold them for fly fishing. know, it became a fly fishing store. He started to organize. says, you know, it always barely paid for my life, but it paid for everything I wanted to do. I wanted to go to Alaska. So I organized a trip for people who paid for the trip to Alaska. So, you know, I went to Alaska, showed them around, but I saw it as a fly fishing guy. So he did fly fishing trips to Alaska, to Russia, to God knows where. And he made, you know, a
Marc Winter (48:41)
Awesome.
Paul Fattinger (49:07)
life out of his passion which I found and he still is so passionate about it that he runs ten courses a year over ten weekends to teach people how to fly fish.
Marc Winter (49:10)
amazing.
Amazing. Wow. That's a great one. Wow.
Paul Fattinger (49:20)
Amazing man. Yeah, I loved it.
I was really, really impressed, very inspired.
Marc Winter (49:25)
⁓
there's a theme here. We're getting inspired by some our terminators are all older guys some old dudes. All right. Cheers to that buddy.
Paul Fattinger (49:29)
Some old dudes.
Cheers to that. I hope you guys got inspired by us old dudes too today. Thank you for listening and we're gonna talk to you soon. See ya. Ciao.
Marc Winter (49:37)
See you next week. Bye.