Empower Apps

Adrian Eves tells us about what it was like meeting folks at WWDC and what it was like watching some his work and his colleagues' work come to fruition.


Related Episodes

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We talked about 

  • (00:00) - Tears of the Layoffs
  • (03:48) - Spatial Experiences of the Wild
  • (28:23) - Partnership of Unity
  • (30:31) - Macros of the Swift

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Creators & Guests

Leo Dion
Swift developer for Apple devices and more; Founder of BrightDigit; husband and father of 6 adorable kids
Adrian Eves
Dad. @Marvel / @WaltDisneyCo | prev @Apple . Ironman finisher. Voice Actor. AKA @driandraws if you’re looking for my cartoons. 🧩

What is Empower Apps?

An exploration of Apple business news and technology. We talk about how businesses can use new technology to empower their business and employees, from Leo Dion, founder of BrightDigit.

Leo Dion (host): Welcome to
another episode at Empower Apps.

I'm your host, Leo Dion.

Today I am joined by Adrian Eves.

Adrian, thank you so much for coming on.

Adrian Eves (guest): Thank
you so much for having me.

I'm very excited to be here.

Yeah, it's, this is
gonna be a great time.

Leo Dion (host): I am not, I'm
really happy to have you on.

I know how exhausting it's to travel.

You just came back from WW.

You did you get to go
to the actual event?

Adrian Eves (guest): I did I didn't
get the quote unquote golden ticket.

I was really more there to
support my friends at Apple.

Who've been working on things that
they finally have gotten to reveal.

And it's funny that you mentioned
traveling and stuff, because

I've only been back home from
WW for a little over an hour.

I took a red eye home.

Leo Dion (host): Wow.

Oh my gosh.

Adrian, thank you so much
for being able to do this.

This is, this is great.

I really, really happy about that.

One thing we wanted to talk about
is just your current work situation.

So you've been, you were
at Disney, is that correct?

For quite some time.

Adrian Eves (guest): that is correct.

Leo Dion (host): were recently laid off.


You wanna talk about that
situation a little bit?

What was that like?

Adrian Eves (guest): I would love to.

So I've had a bit of a
cycle with it personally.

Cause first I got the news and it was
kind of like, it didn't really hit me.

I was just kinda oh
yeah, I'm one the layoff.

And then that weekend
it was, it was rough.

I had a lot of questions about
my own self worth and stuff,

and I was like, oh, why me?

But then I also saw like some of the
other folks that were getting laid off

and I and one of my friends his name's
ish, he explained the way layoffs

work to me is, it's not like they're
getting fired, but it's really just

a corporate thing where they, they
have to reduce roll counts and such.

And so I was able to see that.

It really wasn't a personal decision
and it's really easy to take personally,

but I have made peace with it.

I have enjoyed my time there.

I'm really glad I got to be there and
I'm excited to find out what's next

personally and why I do not know what
that is at the time of recording.

I've got some things in the pipeline and
we'll just have to see where they lead.

Leo Dion (host): Were you
surprised to see Disney at WW?

Bob Iger specifically there
to talk about the Vision Pro.

Adrian Eves (guest):
That was a little tough.

I'm, I'm gonna say, and I'm happy
that they get to do the division

Pro, pro stuff, but cause see, I
was watching the keynote and I felt

like a big wave of nostalgia, cause
I used to work over at Apple and I,

I, I loved, I loved working there.

And so I was already like
in the prime zone to feel

like, like heartfelt things.

And then, Yeah, then that happened.

I was like, oh man.


It was like, they got me.

But but no, that's really exciting.

And honestly, I'm, I would be
lying if I said I wasn't going

to use my Vision Pro to make
Mickey Mouse around my furniture.

Leo Dion (host): Nice.


Yeah, so good luck with your endeavors.


99% sure you're gonna find a new gig.

Adrian Eves (guest):
Appreciate you for that.

But it's very kind.

Leo Dion (host): yeah, I think with
layoffs, it is gonna sound a little

coldhearted, but like us engineers
who have skills have a lot easier

finding new gigs than people who are
quote unquote unskilled laborers.

So I, I'm.

I'm hopeful that most people can
find new jobs pretty easily in

Adrian Eves (guest):
Yeah, I hope so too.

It's, it's, it's really sad to see
cause I, I, it's funny, I feel like

people use LinkedIn most during job
hunt season, and I'm using LinkedIn

a lot lately, for obvious reasons.

And you see it a lot.

People get dispatched and laid off and
it's, it's sad because it's like some

people have had 25 year histories at
their company and it's just that's it.

And it's kinda oh.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Yeah, totally.

So let's get into WWDC What was, what's
been your favorite videos this year?

There was a ton.

Trust me, I'm, I'm thinking of
it, like 50% of my bookmarks.

But how, how, what, what were
the things that you were like,

oh my gosh, that's so cool.

Adrian Eves (guest): So there were a lot
that were really, really, really cool.

We had about 175 sessions this year, and
so I tried to limit it down to three.

And I want, I think these three are
really, really special to me because

I know the people who were giving
the talks and they, I don't know.

Some of 'em have given the
talks before, but also the ones

that have given talks before.

This was a pretty big moment for them.

So for instance, one of my top
ones is Meet assistive access,

and you probably know him.

Alan Leary delivered that

Leo Dion (host): Can I, can I
tell you a funny story about Alan?

I I invited him to the, I invited him
to the podcast and this was before

I knew about his new position and it
was like a week before he got the job.

And I saw the tweet right after I
DMed him and I was like, oh yeah,

he's, he's not gonna come on.

Oh, I just, just missed him.

By that

Adrian Eves (guest): Oh yeah,

Leo Dion (host): that,

Adrian Eves (guest): that
would've been a good one.


Leo Dion (host): an awesome, But yeah,
like assistive access, it's just awesome

to see the work that Apple's doing when
it comes to accessibility in that realm.

Adrian Eves (guest): It is really,
and is, that is a very, very special

work piece of work that they've done.

It's been, it's been a long time
coming, but it's been incredible.

I'm so happy to see it out in the wild.

Leo Dion (host): Did you work on that?

If you mind me asking?

Adrian Eves (guest): did not
work on assistive access.

That was those were other members of
the accessibility team doing that.

Alan I'm gonna be careful and I'm not
gonna speak on what Alan did or didn't

do because he's not here to correct
me or also speak on behalf of it.

But I will say that he is very
qualified to give the session.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.


You wanna explain what assistive
access is and how, how that

fits in accessibility Exactly.

Adrian Eves (guest): Yes.

And so one of the reasons I love
assistive access so much is because

a lot of times when we think of
accessibility, we think of vision

accessibility with things like voiceover
and we think of, motor accessibility,

things like switch control, and
we think of things that help with

our hearing, like subtitles or.

Boosts, et cetera.

We, a lot of people don't really
think of cognitive accessibility.

And to be fair, it's a, when you think
of it in terms of the other three

ones that I just mentioned, it's a bit
different and harder to design around.

And so assistive access does a beautiful
job of giving developers a means to

really tackle that by just creating
interfaces that make a lot more sense.

I have one of my best friends in
the whole world is a gentleman who

has Down Syndrome and he consist
of access is right up his alley.

He's a very bright, bright person,
can tell you literally anything,

any plot of any movie, any
actor, any year a movie was done.

It's incredible.

And, but the only thing, sometimes
he gets frustrated using his

phone and something like this.

Just awesome because it
doesn't insult anybody.

It just makes it easier to use
and a lot friendlier to use.

Leo Dion (host): What.

How would you convince a company
to use this in their app?

Adrian Eves (guest): So it's in, so
it, that's a tricky thing because

as it is in a lot of companies,
Even getting support for voiceover

in your app can actually be tricky.

It can be a, a hill that you have to
be ready to die on, but I think that

this is a hill worth dying on as well.

Maybe I should pick a different metaphor
cause that is morbid, but but so

essentially I think that if you consider
that you want your app to be used by

everybody, you have to consider that.

We have a po.

We have a world population of about 8
billion people, and we live in a world

where at least 15% of those people
experience some kind of disability.

And if we really wanna make
something for everyone, we really

need to make sure that that 15% is
not being cut out of the equation.

And more often than not, just by
putting something, this is a common

courtesy to put into your app.

So putting something like assistive
access or voiceover into your app

is a common courtesy to folks.

But when people see it done well, it
brings them considerable joy because

they actually feel like you're thinking
of them and that they, that you want

them to use your app and they're just,
they're just folks like you and me.

They just use their phones
differently than, than you and I do.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Yeah, we'll definitely put a
link to Allen's talk at WW.

Definitely take, take a look at that.

That's pretty awesome.

Speaking of accessibility you
also wrote down the create

accessible spatial experiences,

Adrian Eves (guest): Yes

Leo Dion (host): you wanna explain the
accessibility vision os story there.

Adrian Eves (guest): so I've,
this talk was delivered by my

friends Dan Golden and Drew Haas.

And they have done some incredible
work on Vision Os, and as you can

imagine vision os especially the
mission at Apple is we're the apple's

very big on accessibility and vision.

OS is not going to be an
exception to the rule there.

And so

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Adrian Eves (guest): I will say, like
with Alan, they're very qualified to

deliver this, this talk, this session.

And they go over a lot of things
like pointing accessibility and such.

And you would imagine, oh, it's.

We have iOS and iPad OS apps
and watchOS apps that they use.

Things like voiceover.

But this is going to be a
different experience because you,

because the vision os relies so
much on eyes and hand gestures.

We also have to think about those
folks who use their devices, who,

for instance, do not have all that
eye mobility or that hand mobility,

and so they can use things like,
Pointing gestures and such to

operate with these interfaces.

And also the ability to have
the feedback of a voice reading

your content on the screen.

And I don't wanna I don't wanna jump
too far into it, but it's just a really

good overview as we start getting into
spatial computing about how to really

do some good accessible practice.

And I highly recommend it to anybody.

Who's starting to consider projects with
Vision Os because the SDK is not even

out at the time of recording, and you
could really do yourself a favor beating

a head start, because I'm gonna say the,
the age old saying that when you start

your app, it's way better to consider
accessibility white at that stage than

it is to try to shoehorn it in later.

And this talk does a really, really,
really good job of helping with that.

Leo Dion (host): I, I would say
accessibility is more important for

this than it is for any other device.

I, I, I had questions talking about the
interaction with the device okay, what

if you're like, is there an alternative
to pin, like tapping your fingers?

Is there an alternative to looking
at something like, So I haven't seen

this video, but this sounds right up
my alley cuz I'm really curious how

you can set up those alternatives.

Not, not just for accessibility,
but just in general.

I could see people being like, okay,
I'm tired of doing this one thing.

I want to be, have an alternative.

So yeah, that looks,
that sounds awesome.

I'm, I'm gonna definitely
check that out after this.

Adrian Eves (guest): And one thing
that that's also worth considering is

that one, I don't think it's people
necessarily realize it, that vision

os the the Vision Pro is that you're
able to connect devices to it like

a game controller, for instance.

So that also can assist with navigation.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah,
I would assume so.

Did they say anything
about storage on it?

If you want to pull off offline content.

Adrian Eves (guest): I don't recall.

And also,

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Adrian Eves (guest): so yeah, I'm,
I'm, I don't know on that one.

Leo Dion (host): Okay.


Yeah, cuz they had the person watch
the movie on the airplane, but wifi

find the airplane sometimes sucks.

So could you download it on the
app like offline, like you could

with Disney Plus or something?

I'd be curious about that.

Sorry that was total tangent

Adrian Eves (guest): No, no, it's
a valid question, a valid use case.

And now I'm sure after this talk
I'm going to go down a rabbit

hole to see if I can be done.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah, so you, we know
that there's a two hour battery, right?

Like I know that that's a bottleneck
with the device, which hopefully

you can charge it on the airplane
while you're using it so you can

watch the two and a half hour movie.

But yeah, so that's just one of
the many questions that I'll have.

I don't know.

Are you getting the developer kit?

I would assume so, right?

Adrian Eves (guest): I, I
would very much to apply

Leo Dion (host): Yeah,

Adrian Eves (guest): because I
went to a session, I went to a

lab about developing games for
vision os and I came in with two

ideas and I came out with 10.

And the problem is
that I have 10 now and


Leo Dion (host): new domains too, right?

Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah.

Oh yeah.

No, I wish I actually, I did buy a, I
did buy a domain, but it's not, I don't

think it's what for people think it is.

And but I, I'm excited to
talk about that down the road.

But yeah, like the problem is I have
10 ideas and with somebody like me,

that's 10 competing things in my head,
then so the problem is picking one.

Leo Dion (host): I was telling
people over the weekend, well over

the week, I've been working on four
apps at the same time, like trying

to digest all this two, two current
apps and two new apps that I've

been waiting for WWDC to work on.

And it's like I just feel like
I've been under the fire hose w

whatever for the last week and
a half with all this new stuff.

Yeah, I, I, I understand.

Speaking of shared space
enhance your iPad and iPhone

apps for the shared space.

So my understanding, I, I did wa I
think I did watch this one, is that

like you can bring in iPhone and
iPad apps, like basically whole ho

like whole hog into vision os right?

Adrian Eves (guest): it's wonderful.


And there's a really, I, I would say,
so my friend John Mark gave this talk

and the whole one, I feel like the real
MVP of this talk was the hover effect

modifier was because in visionOS as
opposed to iOS, in iOS you tap your

phone to interact with controls, right?

And you, you get different feedbacks.

You can get a visual feedback or
you can get a haptic feedback.

But I don't know about you.

I don't want something buzzing on my
face when I press it, and so what?


Leo Dion (host): timer's done.


Adrian Eves (guest): oh, that's, oh,
and speaking of timers My friend Devin

Davies is working on, he's already
hard at work, like designing his app

crouton to interface with Vision Pro.

And honestly, I would, I would get
a Vision Pro just to use Crouton

because can you imagine cooking and
then, but having the recipe of the

app right next to you, you don't have
to touch your phone or get dirty cuz

you have like flour on your hands.

You can put it in a window off to
the side while you are just cooking

and like just ref, refer to it.

And like you could probably
cook way more efficiently.

And Devin, if you're listening
to this, I am genuinely excited.

I really am.

Leo Dion (host): Was there anything else
with enhancing iPad and iPhone apps?

Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, I was, I,
I think I was kind of on a, on a

train there and I hopped off my bad.

But so the, the hover, hover effect
is a modifier that you can use.

To give feedback to elements when
you have them selected, using your,

your eyes in, in vision prayer.

I keep interchangeably using vision,
prayer and vision os I'm really bad

at this in Vision o Envision Os and
that's, that's really helpful because

if you don't have that feedback when
you're looking around, it's gonna

feel stale or stiff and it really
helps with the eye tracking a lot.

And paired with the

Leo Dion (host): I was
wondering about that.

Adrian Eves (guest): and yeah,
that, that actually goes off

how to use it really well.

And it comes up and it explains a
really good use case for defining

the geometry of the hover area.

No spoilers though.


Leo Dion (host): It's okay to get
Vision Os and Vision Pro Interchanged

until they come out with the
vision error or the vision se.

Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah, exactly.

Leo Dion (host): years,
so you're good with that.

Adrian Eves (guest): The vision.


Leo Dion (host): What else do you wanna
cover when it comes to Vision os, I

Adrian Eves (guest): I, so I, I'm blown
away by the Vision Pros capabilities.

I'm not gonna name any competitors
by name, but I've used the VR stuff

before and it felt like it was just
made for some fun little party games.

Classic Beat Saber, which is not a,
which is not a slam or a dig beat.

Saber is amazing and I love it.

But I have, I have felt
limitations with those and.

The thing that is really interesting
to me about Vision Pro is it feels

like a universal application of
VR and AR space, which to me is

something I wasn't even considering.

Like for instance, I miss, I mentioned
like crouton, like working in

your kitchen with recipes by you.

You can still play games, you
can still watch movies and.

One thing that I'm really, really
excited about is they solve one of

the biggest problems with traditional
vr, which is, so let's say you

played like Skyrim in vr, right?

If you play on a normal headset, you're
gonna get motion sick, unless you have

unless you're really used to it and
you've fought the good fight there.

But because of their windowed
approach to things, you can

still see everything around you.

And it, it feels like another,
like tv, but it's still it's

still part of the experience and
it's really clever how it's done.

And so I'm excited for it to
be a solution for everybody.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

What I said in the last episode
was that everybody's VR headset,

before this was like a Blackberry.

They all had keyboards on them and
that was the way you did a smartphone.

And then Apple comes along
and they're like, no, no, no.

This is how you do vr.

You do get rid of the
keyboard and you make it ar.

AR device with, with a camera
on both ends, et cetera, and it,

it feels like they just, apple
does its own thing and then

everybody's gonna follow that route.

Like it's, it feels very much
like what happened with the iPhone

Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): years
ago in that regard.

Adrian Eves (guest): So that,
that to me is just super cool.

I'm really excited and it's,
we're entering another age

of the developer Wild West.

So back in when Swift was announced
on the iPhone and everyone was jumping

into it, everyone was figuring out
how to use it and stuff and trying

to figure out best practices.

And the cool thing is, apart
from these lovely sessions that

we've been given, a lot of the
best practices for the developer

community have yet to be revealed.

And so I think if you're interested
in joining the wider community at

large this is a great platform for
you because you can be a part of

the discussion and help form kind of
the trajectory of third party apps

for Vision Os, and that's a really
great place to have your voice heard.

Leo Dion (host): Let's talk
about the community aspect of it.

Like what, yeah, what was, what was
that like for this year's dubbed up DC

Adrian Eves (guest):
Oh, it was incredible.

So I, I really think of it honestly,
go going to a really, really big

family reunion because you just,
you recognize so many people.

There so many people you haven't
seen in at least a year, and

it's like you never left.

It's like the whole time
you're kinda like, wow.

But the whole year you're like,
oh man, I hope so and so hasn't

forgotten me or something.

But they're just.

So happy to see you.

There's like hogs and high fives all
around and here's what I've been up

to and it's incredible cuz like not
only are people like here to see

everything at WW, they are also,
you also get to see that they're

in evolving stages of their life.

Like some people have gotten new jobs,
some people have built new apps, some

people are in the middle of building
new apps, some people have had kids,

some people have gotten married.

It's just incredible.

It just really Shows you that
the community is alive, evolving,

and and just really special.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Yeah, I decided not to go this year cuz
I already did my World World tour doing

two conferences and it like, just going
to those two conferences was so great to

see people I haven't seen in a while in
per or never seen in person, honestly.

And I can't imagine it's, it's
the same going to WW dcs, like

just seeing all these people,
especially if it's been a while.


What do you think is like the,
what was like the biggest change

or biggest surprise for meeting
other people as far as what they're

working on that's differently
than what you would've expected,

Adrian Eves (guest): so are you talking
about like in meeting other people

and like what they're working on or
just meeting other people in general?

Leo Dion (host): Meeting other
people and what are they working on?

Adrian Eves (guest): You have this idea
of like kind of software engineering.

Oh, I have an idea.

I'm gonna carefully guard it.

People are out to steal it.

And I was expecting
people to, to be that way.

Cause I, I would Ally ask, oh I see
like you are really interested in this.

Are you planning on
making something then?

And then I was planning every time
I asked that to be like, shut down

and be like, oh, I can't say it.

But everyone is really eager to talk
about what they're doing for the most

part, for those that I talk to at least.

And it's nice because, I haven't
seen the kind of thief mindset.

Usually when somebody says it,
they're like, oh, that's really cool.

Did you know that this could do this?

Or whatever, or, this might be helpful.

And I saw a friend working on
a really, really good idea.

I'm, I really think we'll see
the idea within the next year.

But they were talking to another one of
my friends about a particular protocol

or a framework, and it was really cool.

This person that they, that they were
talking to, really knowledgeable in

this framework and this person just was
genuinely caring and helping them out.

And this community has a really,
really, really good spirit.

And I was just gen, I was just really
impressed with how much everyone

genuinely wants to help each other.

Leo Dion (host): Yep.

Yeah, I agree completely.

I think.

I think that I've done this long enough.

Like I know that your code is not
as special as you think it is.

There's what makes a successful
app is not great code, so to me

it's like sharing my code is not.

It's not the secret it used to
be, yeah, somebody could copy it.

But like to me it's more,
it's more the collab.

There's so much benefit to the
collaboration and the community

aspect to it that it's, to me,
keeping your code secret sometimes

isn't, like you lose more than you
gain, I guess is the way I'd put it.

So yeah, I totally agree with that.

Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah, and I
really do think that while maybe

unfortunate if someone were to copy
code, it really does the copy or

disservice, and that's unfortunate.

Leo Dion (host): Mm.

Yeah, exactly.

What else about just the community
aspect or being in person?

Did you want to talk about or do you
feel like we covered that pretty well?

Adrian Eves (guest): I think so
one really awesome thing, so I

didn't get the quote unquote golden
ticket but I did get to help.

I always did happy hour with the
watch party, and that was really

cool because instead of usually kinda
watching it by yourself and like your

living room or your bedroom, you have
to be with a bunch of other people.

And it was like watching the last,
the last Avengers movie where

everyone hears for things and
all the cool things happen like.

Like for instance, people really got
happy about the Vision Pro announcement.

I almost fell outta my seat when
they announced the biking port

and the health app for iPad.

The biking stuff for the watch, to
me as a cyclist, that to me is just

amazing and I cannot wait to overuse it.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah, let's, I
wanna talk about that a little bit.

We're gonna do an episode, I think
the next episode might be with

Hidi who's done amazing work.

He did a great talk on
design at Swift Heroes.

So I'm really excited to
geek out about watch OS 10

with him in the next episode.

But I do wanna talk about a few things.

Mostly the health related stuff.

So yeah, we got.

We got health kit on the iPad,
which was always a pain in the

butt to deal if you're ever
developed anything with Health Kit.

We got a new API for seeking workouts
between the phone and the watch.

You always had to do it through
watch conductivity and now there's

a built-in API and health kit to do
that, which I really am happy about.

And then we got biking.

So maybe you can explain the
biking and the hiking part.

Are those.

On all watch OS 10 watches, or

Adrian Eves (guest): I'm not

Leo Dion (host): I
wasn't totally clear on

Adrian Eves (guest): I think I didn't
see anything that necessarily said

the ultras, but of course, if anyone's
listening, they can jump out and

correct me and I would be happily

Leo Dion (host): Please do.

We asked this in the last episode
and I'm like, with the hiking stuff,

like they talked about last cell
phone get last cell connection.

Does it have to be a ultra, could
it just be a watch with LTE on it?

I don't like, cuz that would be
awesome if I didn't have to buy, spend

$700 to, to, to use that feature.

Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah, I have an
ultra just because I like to run like

marathons and things, so it's kind

Leo Dion (host): Oh, okay.

Adrian Eves (guest):
it's, it's very great.

But the biking thing is incredible
because as someone who trains, like

for instance, I have an Ironman coming
up in November, but as somebody who

trains extensively on the bike to try
to improve and nail down a certain

level of performance, The improvements.

Basically, what they've done is
something that I've wanted for like

years, and that's for the watch to take
on the functionality of a bike computer.

Now, a bike computer really
tells you a bunch of things,

like how fast you're going.

But it can also tell you
your average wattage.

And Abu amidst a bunch of other stats.

And now the watch can do that, which
means you don't have to go buy a bunch

of extra equipment and sync it up.

You just throw your iPad, I mean
your, your iPad, your iPhone in

your bag, and or in the back of
your bike jersey and it collects

the data and you can get that stuff
just by virtue of running a workout.

And that, to me is incredible,
and I'm so excited about it.

Leo Dion (host): The other, so the other
thing was, is that you can get a display

on your phone to show your bike stats.

Is that correct?

Adrian Eves (guest): That's, that's
like the idea of the bike computer.

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

So like you don't have to look
at your wrist, you can look at

your phone at the same time.

Adrian Eves (guest): I don't
know if I personally would try

to look at both at the same time.

I feel like I don't have the ability to

Leo Dion (host): No, no, no.

I meant you could look at the phone
instead of the watch while the watch

Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, I,

Leo Dion (host): Is that

Adrian Eves (guest): I did not know.

I did not know that.

But my understanding is some
people, some like official races

are very finicky about having like
your phone as a bike computer,

they'll disallow it and stuff.

Leo Dion (host): Why is that?

For safety reasons.

Adrian Eves (guest): I think
it's for safety reasons

and I think it's the idea.

They don't want the temptation
of texting while writing.

Leo Dion (host): That's, that'll happen.


People are like that.


Fair enough.

Yeah, I yeah, I've done
half marathons before.

I've never, I, I haven't done
an, I don't have an ultra watch

ultra, but that would be tempting
for marathons, I would assume.

Adrian Eves (guest): Oh yeah, no, if
you're, yeah, if you ever wanna do

like an endurance board, honestly, like
this is the one to get, it's fantastic.

But even then I will


Leo Dion (host): looked
at one this week.

I actually looked at one this
weekend because if you can

gimme your thoughts on prayers.

My series six died like it's dead.

It doesn't turn on anymore.

It charges, but it doesn't turn on.

I was like, oh, how big is a ultra?

And it looked like really big.

And I was like a bit
intimidated by that.

But yeah, I mean that battery
life must be awesome on it.

Adrian Eves (guest): no, it really is.

And but even I will say that For
things like marathons, there are

optimizations you can make to make
it even better, because I really love

the Nike Run Club app and I love the
guided runs with Coach Bennett, but

that can eat your battery pretty hard.

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Yeah, I've, I've bought, like most of
my watches I've bought were the Nike

ones, so that's, that's cool to hear.

Anything else that you wanna
talk about health related.

Adrian Eves (guest): I guess
that today is pretty awesome.

And I met him at.

And he's just a ray of sunshine.

I'm excited for the next episode.

Leo Dion (host): yeah, yeah.

There's, I'm so tempted
to go to the beta.

We'll see.

I'm, I'm holding out as long as I am.

So far we've been able to record
this episode on Sonoma, so that's

good news cuz I accidentally
upgraded my production.

Adrian Eves (guest): Whoops.

Leo Dion (host): yeah, don't do that.

It, it crashes quite a bit.

I love the widgets on the screen.

I think that's awesome.

But yeah, there's been,
there's been a couple times the

computer's restarted on its own.

So far this worked out great.


I want to talk about
partnership with Unity.

Adrian Eves (guest): Oh,

Leo Dion (host): Vision OS
related or gaming related?

Adrian Eves (guest): both.

So this is something that's special
to me because I have a niche

interest in game development and.

Leo Dion (host): Okay.

Adrian Eves (guest): the years,
Apple's done some really awesome,

like Unity has helped join the pretty
much the Apple scene in a lot of ways

and including actual accessibility
frameworks with Apple for games.

And now we're seeing
unity in these events.

Like the keynote for developing,
especially the case was Vision

Os, and that's just really cool
because I really like Unity a lot.

And it's a really good game development
tool, and it's really nice to see

that it's so friendly with the,
the Apple platform ecosystem.

So it's you don't have to feel
that there's not a suitable

option for game development.

This is a great one.

Leo Dion (host): When you do games,
do you just do them in Unity?

Do you use like Sprite kit or any
of the scene kit or any of the

Apple stuff, or how do you do that?

I'm just kinda

Adrian Eves (guest): I think it, it
depends on the project, and I think it

depends on the scale of your project.

I personally like working in Unity
just because of all that's available

to you, and it's the type of project
that I like lends itself really well

to Unity, especially if you consider
things like tile maps and and I

know you can do that with Sprite
Kit, but Unity makes it really easy.

Leo Dion (host): What is Unity?

C Sharp based JavaScript based.

Adrian Eves (guest): It is
actually, I have a funny story.

So while we were waiting for
our flights, we were, and we

were in Cupertino, Paul Hudson
and I were killing some time.

We went to the Cupertino Public Library
and logged into the computers and

found that they had Visual Studio 2015.

So we built little projects
in c just for the fun of it.

During the hour, we
have limited, it felt.

Suspiciously like an, like
a lead code problem session?

Leo Dion (host): 2015.

Adrian Eves (guest): Yeah.

Leo Dion (host): So
it's wow, that's funny.

Oh, that takes me back.


Was there anything else you wanna
talk about before we close out?

Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, wow.

I guess some last minute things.

Some quick things I'm really pumped
for SWIFT macros and swift data Macros

are gonna make writing swift so much.

More exciting and just
fast and swift data.

We know that it's going to, it as
core data is very kind of archaic and

tricky to conceptually wrap around.

I've always had a really
hard time with it.

And Swift data is gonna be a really
great solution for getting some

persistence done in a way that
makes sense and feels readable.

Leo Dion (host): Have you d
have you tried any of those?

Either, either of those?

In the last week, because I've only done
Swift macro for Previ Swift UI previews,

which by the way, I find a bug.

I filed it,

Adrian Eves (guest): Good job.

Leo Dion (host): the Monday, the
Sunday before Dub wdc, I created,

created a enum called Preview.

With the same name.

And then I'm like using the macro in
my project and it's like I preview's

not a macro, why are you trying to,
but I'm like, I'm using your built-in.

It ends up being,
there's like a name con.

You can't have an enum with the
same name as a built-in macro.

So yeah, I don't think that's, I
don't think that should be the case.

I would assume

Adrian Eves (guest): I'm glad you filed.

Leo Dion (host): way.

Yes, I did file, I'll post a link
to the number in the no show notes.

But I've not, so that's actually one
API is I haven't jumped into Swift data.

Like I pretty much could
use swift data everywhere.

I feel like I've been waiting
for swift data, which is why I've

avoided core data in all of my apps
is because I knew there's gonna

be something like this coming.

I am definitely at some point
this summer gonna deep dive into

Swift data cuz I could use it.

So many places and so many apps.

Yeah, I'm really excited about
that and jumping into that

and seeing how that works.

Also, seeing how that works, how
that fits in with Full for, with

a full Stack Swift application.

If you have a database in
Fluent and Vapor, like how does

that work with Swift data if
you wanna sync your data up.


Adrian Eves (guest): Oh yeah.

Leo Dion (host): I'm
really excited about that.

Adrian Eves (guest): That
should be a good time.

I'm really happy that it's around
and I already know people using it.

And I'll also on the
subgroup, swift Macros.

Shout out to Holly Borla for
presenting at State of the Union.

She's a boss.

Leo Dion (host): she is.

Yes, she is the boss.

Yeah, I Holly puts out great content.

She does a fantastic job.

Her talk on associated types
from last year was a super, super

helpful for me when it came to
doing my talk for Swift Heroes.

Adrian Eves (guest): Oh, I'm
really happy to hear that.

Also good work for your
talk that that's incredible.

Leo Dion (host): Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah, I was wrapping my head around
existential hike types and I finally

rocked it after I watched her talk.

And the other gentleman who talked
last year, I wish I remembered,

Adrian Eves (guest): are the only
other person I know who uses the

word rock, you and Charlie Chapman.

Leo Dion (host): must
be a Midwest thing,

Adrian Eves (guest): I think it's
gotta be, Because yeah, you, you,

Leo Dion (host): Adrian.

Adrian Eves (guest): be midwesterns.

Leo Dion (host): Yes.

Yeah, we're both midwesterns wow.

Anything else?

Adrian Eves (guest): That's
all I can think of for today.

I think I'm ready for
a nap in a little bit.

Leo Dion (host): Yes, enjoy your nap.

Good luck with your job search.

Thank you so much, Adrian,
for coming back on.

We'll love to have you on again.

Maybe next time we'll just geek
out about tears of the kingdom

Adrian Eves (guest): Yes, but we'd have
to schedule multiple sessions for that.

Leo Dion (host): You're right.



Where could people find you online?

Adrian Eves (guest): You can find me
on all the platforms Twitter at swifty

and blue sky at swifties Swift.

Eves at the little.

Standard blue sky domain.

Leo Dion (host): Great.

Thank you again.

Um, people can find me on Twitter
at Leo My company is Bright Digit.

Uh, I'm Leo g Dion everywhere.

Bright Digit Please uh,
if you're watching this on

YouTube, like subscribe.

I'd really, really it.

Share some clips and
shorts with other people.

Let them know that I uh, I'll be
pro pretty much putting out once

a week uh, until probably August.

So have a lot at Wwtc to cover.

Next time we'll be probably hit a talk
about watch OS 10 and I also am planning

on having Pedro Panera from tourist
on to talk about Xcode and tourist.

So be sure to subscribe if you
wanna catch those episodes.

If you're listening to
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Also put out a review and
share with others as well.

Thank you so much and I look
forward to talking to you again.

Bye everybody.