How does a company scale after raising funds? And what changes are necessary to maintain a stellar go-to-market?
That and much more we discussed with Catie Ivey, CRO at Walnut.
***
That and much more we discussed with Catie Ivey, CRO at Walnut.
- (00:00) - Introduction
- (00:48) - Meet Catie
- (05:05) - The setup
- (10:03) - Finding GTM fit
- (15:38) - Scaling outbound
- (18:07) - The rituals
- (27:43) - The culture of problem solving
- (30:54) - When you don't own marketing
- (33:04) - A different sales process
- (37:31) - Spending resources purposefully
***
This episode is brought to you by Growblocks. Finding and fixing problems in your GTM shouldn't take weeks. It should happen instantly.
That's why Growblocks built the first RevOps platform that shows you your entire funnel, split by motions, segments and more - so you can find problems, the root-cause and identify solutions fast, all in the same platform.
***
CONNECT
Connect with us
Connect with us
✉️ Email: podcast@growblocks.com
📺 Watch: https://www.youtube.com/@growblocks
Creators & Guests
What is The Revenue Formula?
This podcast is about scaling tech startups.
Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Mikkel Plaehn, together they look at the full funnel.
With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.
If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.
[00:00:00] Toni: Hey, everyone.
[00:00:00] This is Toni Hohlbein from Growblocks. You are listening to the revenue formula with Toni and Mikkel. In today's episode, we are chatting with Catie Ivey about walnut's growth at plus 100 percent year over year and how they're managing their go to market.
[00:00:17] Enjoy.
[00:00:22] Mikkel: So we have a bit of a problem today.
[00:00:23] Oh, Mikkel. What is it now? Because we've once again started recording and doing all the great intros before we actually hit record. That's right. So I was basically thinking, we have a, uh, Catie, you're with us today.
[00:00:35] And, uh, what's kind of do you have a fun intro, something wonderful, funny, obscure happened lately you can share with
[00:00:42] Toni: us? Wow. So this is your intro? You just, you know, I'm getting off. I'm awning
[00:00:45] Mikkel: it off.
[00:00:48] Catie Ivey: Wonderful, funny, or obscure. I would say those are those could be 3 very different angles that we could take care whether we're going 1, money, uh, or obscure. Um, I don't know.
[00:00:57] Obscure is something that a lot of people don't know about me is I took a 5 year gap year after high school, uh, and lived in Australia, traveled around the world, spent a lot of time in some very, very random parts of the world before I went to university and started anything that would, uh, look or feel like a professional,
[00:01:13] uh,
[00:01:13] Toni: 5
[00:01:14] years.
[00:01:14] Catie Ivey: My,
[00:01:15] uh, my parents were obviously slightly challenged with that
[00:01:18] decision.
[00:01:19] Toni: Yeah.
[00:01:20] Catie Ivey: okay in the
[00:01:20] Toni: about to say that. Did you do, like, uh, so this is this is interesting. Did you do, like, something specific? So a a friend of mine, kind of formed a while back, he spent a year in Australia as well, and he, I think, he became a crab diver or something like this or pearl diver or
[00:01:34] something.
[00:01:35] Yeah.
[00:01:35] You know?
[00:01:36] Catie Ivey: was not quite that interesting.
[00:01:37] So I went to, uh, work for a nonprofit for 6 months. So that was actually the formal it was supposed to be the gap year. Uh, and then I fell in love with the work that they were doing and the opportunity to travel because I grew up in small town Tennessee. I had literally never left the country, never seen the world, uh, so I was very attached to the the mission and the opportunity. So I ended up working and volunteering with that nonprofit for for almost
[00:01:57] 5 years.
[00:01:59] Mikkel: Pretty cool. Pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, we're watching the show where the it's funny.
[00:02:02] It's, uh, 2 kids, uh, in their twenties sailing around the world, spending 3 years on it, and then his dad their parents are super supportive because they were also sailors. And they were like, yeah, you can't learn the experiences they're getting. You can't learn that in school. You're gonna meet so many different cultures and so I I think it's, uh, it's pretty cool actually you've been, uh, been taking that step. Uh, I was just super boring and went straight to school, straight to school, and then straight to work.
[00:02:27] It's like,
[00:02:27] Toni: no. It's called hey. It's called ambitious. Okay. I
[00:02:30] Mikkel: don't know about that.
[00:02:31] I just needed to get it over
[00:02:32] with, I guess. Both both tracks can work out very, very well. So, uh, there's no
[00:02:36] Yeah. Obviously. Yes. Yes.
[00:02:39] Anyway, so you are 0 at Walnut, which we're gonna talk a bit about today. Um, I kind of I always scan through, like, who who's the guest, where they've been. Pretty cool. I didn't see that story. Uh, you're a gap year on LinkedIn,
[00:02:53] Catie Ivey: That was why I picked it as part of my
[00:02:55] Mikkel: yeah. Yeah. Exactly. But, uh, you
[00:02:57] so you mentioned Sangam. You've worked at Demandbase, I can see. I believe he's also worked
[00:03:02] at Demandbase, So Sangram and I actually overlapped, uh, when I was at Pardot, he was exact exact target. So we're both at
[00:03:07] Uh, okay. Uh, there We actually did our onboarding together in Indianapolis, uh,
[00:03:11] Catie Ivey: so it was it was fun.
[00:03:13] Toni: And And also both of so you mentioned you're
[00:03:14] from Atlanta, actually,
[00:03:15] Catie Ivey: Yeah. We both have Atlanta as yeah. So that you
[00:03:18] Toni: know, there's another little bit of an overlap there. I'm not Sure. But anyway, but, yeah, we're also at Pendo, um, which is a pretty cool kind of team, and then, obviously, you know, Marketo and so forth. Right? So, I mean, you've you have seen a couple of very successful companies from the inside, granted, not always being the CRO, obviously, kind of that part of the career track. Right? And I think, uh, Walnut now the first, like, CRO job.
[00:03:40] Right? If I'm if I'm if I'm
[00:03:41] not
[00:03:42] Catie Ivey: Yep. You are correct.
[00:03:43] This is for third time, and I just hit my 90 day mark. So still very new, uh, in the CRO
[00:03:47] seat.
[00:03:47] Mikkel: you go. And if, uh, you've been living under a rock, Walnut is, uh, an interactive demo platform. Am I saying that
[00:03:54] right?
[00:03:54] That's that's kinda
[00:03:55] Catie Ivey: You are. Perfect. You nailed
[00:03:56] Mikkel: of the the first I I
[00:03:58] believe the first 1 to create it as
[00:03:59] well.
[00:04:00] Catie Ivey: Yeah. We're definitely creating that category. I will say it has grown and accelerated very quickly, uh, over the last just over 3 years, about 3 and a half years. But, yeah, it's, uh, it's always a little bit fuzzy in terms of who got started first, but at least from a funding perspective or what we can figure out on paper, I think we
[00:04:15] were the first.
[00:04:16] Toni: If if if you say it on this show, then then it's it's by
[00:04:19] default documented
[00:04:20] Catie Ivey: It's absolutely
[00:04:21] Toni: to kinda be
[00:04:22] gonna just to be
[00:04:22] Catie Ivey: hands down 100 percent we're the
[00:04:25] first.
[00:04:25] Toni: yes. Yeah. And and, uh, I think what you guys are pretty, I don't know, famous for, I would say, there's this the the we are prospects campaign. Right? I think that kind of still resonates with me a lot. Then there is this, uh, Uh, at least I I still know it.
[00:04:40] It's the the cat and the lion, the before and after LinkedIn ad. Like, very, very successful. Right? And then, The very high quality produced, know, commercial, basically, where the 1 guy says, I wasted my best years on demos. You know.
[00:04:59] Catie Ivey: I love the not just that you guys have done your homework, but I love the specific homework because you were highlighting all of the best things.
[00:05:05] Mikkel: it's also just now if if a listener out there hasn't seen it yet, they, you know, Google it, go on YouTube, watch it.
[00:05:12] It's hilarious. But also, a lot of the other podcast anyone from Walnut has been on, I feel like that's what what's been covered. And actually, something has happened since then. You raised a series b, a pretty decent round as I recall. Mhmm.
[00:05:25] Um, and then, obviously, that money needs to get deployed to grow and get to the next stage. That's actually what we wanted to talk with you about today, which is pretty exciting. Uh, so I haven't seen anyone do that yet. So Nope. Uh, you're gonna hear it here first.
[00:05:39] think what would be really helpful for the listener out there, you know, probably they've they have an outside glimpse of the company. But can you maybe share us a little bit what does the go to market team look like today? What is the setup you have just to get a feel for the mechanics of of the business?
[00:05:53] Catie Ivey: Yeah. Sure. Uh, maybe 1 other thing that I'll
[00:05:56] kinda just to set the stage because you're correct.
[00:05:58] We've talked a lot, and, Yoav, our CEO
[00:06:00] and founder is, uh, just so phenomenal at
[00:06:02] telling all of the early stories, which everything you just
[00:06:04] mentioned, we are prospects in the videos and the memes and the cat are all a big part of. but the thing that I think that we haven't talked about a ton
[00:06:12] yet is how that connects really to the mission that we're on. And and you called out, obviously, that we're it's an interactive demo platform. But, really, our fundamental belief and you you see it if you've watched the We Are prospect videos or other things online, but we just think b to b go to market is fundamentally broken. So the experience of buying software as a b to b buyer, uh, is really challenging.
[00:06:32] And that's we made it very funny in the we are prospects, but it's all very true. And the experience that you have typically with a seller and with demoing a piece of software and that entire buyer journey, uh, can be really horrendous. Um, of course, it can be great in some pockets, but historically and kind of if you think of the standard, it's just
[00:06:50] not awesome. Uh, so that's really what we're all about as a business. And for us, that demo is the fundamental piece.
[00:06:57] It's kind of that starting point, uh, of how do we empower someone to interact with your product or your piece of software. Um, and it's not even always just in that live demo moment, but, you know, think about pieces of software that you guys have bought everything from how you're interacting with live product tours on a website and microsites and how you might be getting educated via an email that comes, you know, a few hours or a few days before that first call, you know, via an interactive demo or clicking through a product, how you're interacting with the product on live calls, the follow-up, how you're onboarded to learn about using that that product as well. So it's all about really unlocking kind of those magical moments, but in a much more buyer centric way. Um, the interesting thing that ties directly to your
[00:07:38] question in terms of how I'm running go to market, what we're doing as a business is it's a really hard problem to solve. So it's it's easy to talk about.
[00:07:46] Let's just make
[00:07:47] your demos suck less. Uh, and, of course, we've built some really
[00:07:49] cool technology
[00:07:50] that helps make your demos much more personalized, much more interactive. But when we think about transforming the entirety
[00:07:57] of the b 2 b go to market and buying process, There's so many layers, and
[00:08:01] there's a lot of complexity there. So the it's the most simple way to answer kind of what we've
[00:08:05] been
[00:08:05] focused on since that last round of
[00:08:07] funding and, you know deploying the capital is what's our point of view and perspective on the entirety of that buying journey, uh, and then what are the
[00:08:14] areas where we
[00:08:15] feel like we have a role to really helping to solve
[00:08:18] those? And I
[00:08:19] I feel like you have a question before I
[00:08:20] keep going.
[00:08:20] I can see
[00:08:21] Toni: No. I I feel like the, um, you know, be because a couple of the campaigns on the top funnel was super successful for you guys.
[00:08:28] You know, that that must have resulted in a lot of not only interest, but also people really having the intent to buy. Right? Not just not just, oh, wow. Cool cool new brand. Really, really well done. But, oh, let me check this out and maybe even go further in the funnel. Right? So I would assume that probably early days, you got, lot of tailwind from from the great marketing work that was you know, has been produced, basically. then I wonder how this is evolving. Right?
[00:08:55] Because it's, you know, this this 1 s curve and, you know, maybe it's going, maybe it's not. I'm not sure kind of where you guys are in this. But then there's always this, okay. let's layer on the next thing. Right? And and really kind of these these additions.
[00:09:09] And I know, you know, it's an it's an it's an Israeli, uh, you know, you know, founded company, but, very much in the US, uh, right now. Right? also with you kind of leading, uh, the commercial team, there. But, um, tell us a little bit more about, you know, how the setup works and you know, what what the challenges were and kind of layering another, uh, revenue motion potentially on top of this and and so forth. Right? Um, I think, that would be, uh, that would give some some nice background in terms of the the complexity of the beast that you're maneuvering
[00:09:36] Catie Ivey: Yeah. Uh, and we are Israeli, uh, headquartered and founded. And we're about half and half.
[00:09:40] So about half of the company is based in Tel Aviv, um, or close by, and then half is spread out across North America, primarily in the US. Um, so the entire revenue org that I lead, um, is based in in North America. Um, and so that, uh, makes up support, customer success, sales, presales, pretty much everything that's customer facing or or touching, uh, the revenue motion outside of marketing. So marketing, uh, does not report into me, But every other aspect of go to market does.
[00:10:03] Toni: and, the kind of the, uh, the the real the question on top of this is really, there was a lot. of inbound happening at first, right, did you kind of build additional channels on top now or kind of what's the tell us a little bit more about the I guess you guys got to product market fit extremely fast. Right? Kind of that that? happened kind of extremely quickly. And now, you know, we're we're not gonna talk about specific ARR numbers, but let's just say you're in the go to market fit stage.
[00:10:26] Right? Really kind of scaling this up, figuring out what's The repeatable playbook. can you share a little bit, you know, how that how that works and, uh, how you're kind of going through those motions and, uh, at Walnut?
[00:10:36] Catie Ivey: And you're a hundred percent correct. We had these amazing tailwinds early on that certainly gave us a sense of, like, yes. We're absolutely are finding product market fit very quickly. Remember, this is before my time, but I've heard all the stories, so I feel like I feel like I was there for the ride even though I wasn't there for the early days. Um, but 1 of the I mean, It's an incredible opportunity and a blessing, but it can also be a challenge when you find yourself in that scenario where you very much are reacting to demand in the market very quickly.
[00:11:01] Um, and for us, because of the space that we play in and the products that we sell, uh, and that we develop, it works really, really well and is super applicable for small companies, midsize companies, large companies, Fortune 100 brands. Um, so we had companies of all shapes and sizes coming to us and wanting to try it out. We obviously had some very strategic design partners early on that helped to shape kind of the the platform that we were building and ensuring that we were solving the right problems. But we did get to a place of feeling like there's certainly product market fit. There's a ton of interest in this space.
[00:11:30] This is a category that's absolutely gonna blow up. and so for that first I mean, really the entirety of those first 2 years, we were really just riding that wave of doing the absolute best that we could to keep up with demand and react to that. Um, and to your question, the next phase and what we've been working on and certainly, it started before I joined, but it's very much why they they brought on a CRO and are looking to build out kind of the next phase of that revenue engine, um, is this aspect of of how do we anchor everything around customer centricity and then also be very purposeful at what is the right what are the right problems that we're solving, who are we solving them for, and what areas do we wanna be absolute best in class at? Uh, because it's no surprise to you guys what a the the problems that a 25 person startup are solving are different than a problem that Adobe is solving across their b to b go to market org. Um, and they're both really valid problems and super interesting and lots of great opportunity.
[00:12:20] but because we were serving such a large number of customers and much almost entirely, uh, coming to us inbound, uh, There wasn't quite the level of focus that we needed to put in place to be able to get to the next level. Um, and so while we're gonna continue absolutely to ride that marketing wave and try to be best in class when it comes to building brand and creating the category, uh, for us, this next phase is about being very, very clear on our ICP, what we're building for, uh, the key individuals that we want to lean in. Um, and for us, that that'll look like a customer advisory board and just getting a lot more strategic with anchoring around the right personas and individuals within those revenue orgs, uh, to ensure that we're tightening up the foundation so we can really build that outbound motion, uh, in addition to the inbound motion.
[00:13:01] Toni: So and this is I'm going a little bit off script, and, you know As usual. Maybe maybe that's not allowed here. Um, but this is maybe almost kind of a sensitive question. Right?
[00:13:11] Because you have, uh, you've been there now for 90 days. Half of the company is is is in Tel Aviv in Israel. And, obviously, there's a lot of stuff going on there right now. Right? So kinda how did this affect Walmart actually kind of is is there is is there a little bit more of a shift now to the US side?
[00:13:27] Because that's maybe a little bit more stable right now in terms of, um, just the employees and, you know, what they can focus on. Um, I mean, I'm guessing kind of that that kind of, um, I don't wanna call it a disruption, but but that kind of event obviously must have shook, uh, not only the country, but also the the go to market org and the company at the same time. Right? So kind of managing through that as a as a CRO plus having all the, pressure of, hey. This is a a rocket ship, you know, startup company, and you have all those expectations.
[00:13:57] that must be a really difficult difficult, you know, uh, mix of of challenges to, uh, to manage
[00:14:03] through. Right?
[00:14:04] Catie Ivey: Yeah. So interesting timing to say the least.
[00:14:07] Uh, I signed my offer letter to join Walnut 2 days before October seventh, so literally right before the war broke out. the go to market focus into the US is not new, so it's been the core of where our customers and our sales and revenue team have been based, um, from very early on in the company. Um, so that decision was made, uh, even before I was hired. um, they clearly were looking for a CRO in the US because of that. Um, but, yes, the dynamic of what's gone on and is continues to go on in israel certainly has added complexity.
[00:14:33] I mean, even to the point that, you know, key individuals on our executive team were pulled into the reserves, and, there was a lot of disruption in terms of uh, how to do the work and we're running calls. My first day on the job we ran our management meeting and it was 10.30 PM for the Israeli team because that was the only hour that they could all be on a Zoom, uh, because of, you know, numbers that were, uh, involved in literally life and death scenarios and situations. So it certainly added complexity. Um, I also had planned to spend my second and third week in Tel Aviv, so getting to know, management team in person. I had the opportunity to meet Joav during my interview process. So I had met the CEO in person, uh, but I hadn't met anyone else.
[00:15:10] Um, and we had to push that back a bit because of safety reasons. I was able to go to Tel Aviv 3 4 weeks ago. Uh, I went for the first time, and we did. We finally got to do the management off-site and spent a lot of time. Uh, the team is incredible.
[00:15:21] The office is incredible. The city is incredible. Uh, such amazing, resilient, uh, phenomenal human being. So I won't take us further off course because I could talk much more about
[00:15:30] Toni: Yeah.
[00:15:30] Catie Ivey: But it has certainly, to your question, added a layer of complexity, uh, that I did not expect or plan for when I signed the offer letter or made the decision.
[00:15:38] Mikkel: So, um, sometimes when you bring on a a senior role like you it's also to to build something very specific or achieve something very specific. Right? And you you mentioned you're obviously, you have a sale lot of a sales experience.
[00:15:50] You're located in the us and the focus is on US. So it sounds to me like the focus for Walnut right now is to build up the outbound motion because inbound is working with emphasis on u on US. Is that kind of did I read that right?
[00:16:02] Catie Ivey: Yep. So it's it's to build out the outbound motion. It's also to be very specific and targeted in our various segment motions.
[00:16:09] So we've had more of a 1 size fits all approach because we were primarily reacting to inbound demand. So building out the right motions that are scalable and efficient and customer centric for small companies, midsize companies, and large companies for sure.
[00:16:21] Mikkel: And and I'm curious, like, how far how far are you in that process of building out outbound? Did it start with you kind of, uh, you as a hire? Now you're gonna go build it, or was there already an initiative? Just to get a feel for where are we in the in the process of
[00:16:34] Catie Ivey: We've we've already a hundred percent cracked the code. We've got it all flowing perfect
[00:16:37] Mikkel: There you go. So there's go to market fit.
[00:16:40] Catie Ivey: Absolutely. We have a ton of work to do there, and it was already in motion. And it was a key topic of conversation before I joined. It was something that we were very aware that we needed to get more sophisticated, more strategic. I mean, just think I mean, back to very much fundamentals, building a clear target account list, identifying your core personas, and then having very specific messaging for each. We had started some of that, um, but being a very new category and a category that's evolving as quickly as ours is, um, there there definitely was some additional work that needed to be done.
[00:17:08] So that's where we focused a lot of my first 3 months has been really about let's nail what we've spent a lot of time in data wanting to make sure we're making the right decisions in terms of really what's the core of the ICP for both the company perspective as well as the personas, um, so that we're then building the right target account list and layering a little bit of technology on to make sure that we are, uh, because we don't have a massive, you know, sales organization. We don't have a massive BDR team. We're trying to be lean just like everyone else. Uh, so if we're gonna go focus we've also seen the stats. Like, it takes about 10 times as many emails to get responses as it did even 18 months ago.
[00:17:40] Uh, cold calling's making this interesting resurgence. We've all gotta figure out how to use AI differently. So when we talk about even the word outbound, I think there's this assumption that you could sort of just build a list and throw bodies at it, and then you're gonna book some meetings. Um, and it's become quite a bit more complex than that in terms of what is I I really think of it as everything is an allbound motion. There is how marketing and sales and entire go to market are working together.
[00:18:01] Um, but, yeah, we are still very much in the early innings of
[00:18:04] defining what that looks like for us and building it.
[00:18:07] Toni: Yeah. Very, very cool. Very interesting. Thank you for the background, actually, because that sets us nicely up for kind of the next chapter here, actually, which is, um, can you tell us a little bit you know, what are the rituals or what are the cadences or what are the recurring events, the recurring meetings, if you will, that you're running in order to organize that whole thing. Right?
[00:18:27] Because, um, you know you kind of nicely used the all bound word here. which, you know, we could probably spend an hour discussing that now. ultimately, it means there's a there's a lot of different influences then that lead to, sales process and lead to a new customer. Right? And that that means orchestration. Right?
[00:18:43] So what are the what are the, um, you know, I I started liking using the rituals word here. Actually, what are the rituals that you guys are using in order to actually organize this?
[00:18:52] Catie Ivey: It's such a great question, and I love that you're using the term rituals. Um, and I would say in full transparency that we don't have all of the rituals yet. So a lot of my first 3 months has been very much listening, learning, asking a ton of questions, digging into the data.
[00:19:06] And, of course, we're making a lot of decisions around that. Uh, but we just kicked off our new fiscal year, um, Feb 1. And so a lot of what we're in very much early stages of in flight is building out those rituals and that cadence and what are the right meeting structure and the right communication cadence. And it does add even another layer of complexity because half of the team, a big part of it is marketing that supports that go to market motion space in Tel Aviv. So what do we do async?
[00:19:29] When do we connect live? Um, we have a revenue kickoff the week after next, so my whole team's getting together in Miami. Uh, of course, a handful of the folks from Tel Aviv are joining as well. Um, and so that's going to be very much the the kickoff, not just in in name, but also the kickoff of a lot of the rituals that you're describing. I mean, even down to the lens of how often we meet together as a team, I feel like some of the things that we all remember being really intentional in the early days of COVID because for many of us, it was the first time we were running teams virtually. And now we've been doing this for years, and so we get really sloppy, at least in my experience.
[00:20:02] I see us. We pay attention less to when was the last time we got together socially and talked about things that weren't part of, you know, a work discussion or didn't do a pipeline review? Like, what's the structure in terms of exactly how we're kicking off meetings to ensure that people are engaged and focused? And how much time are we spending on walking 1 on ones versus on camera? So some of those fundamentals are also the things that because my team is now, uh, in the US, pretty much fully distributed, so we don't have a true hub model.
[00:20:27] I've got a a group that's together in Boston. I've got a handful of folks in New York, uh, a couple folks together in Salt Lake, but everyone else is is pretty much on their own spread out in the US. Um, so we're our revenue kickoff is gonna be the first full gathering of the entire team since I joined. Um, I've been able to meet almost all of them in person, so I've been on a lot of airplanes since joining. Um, but we will start the cadence of quarterly meetups, uh, around a WeWork or a hub location so that we're putting QBRs and some, uh, uh, consistent face to face meetings in place.
[00:20:55] Um, but that's gonna be in terms of, like, my team specifically. I think the piece you'll probably be more interested in when you say, you know, rituals or how you're running that I mean, things like, we'll call it a funnel working group. But, like, every single individual that owns aspects of pipeline, how often do we get together and review every aspect of those numbers? Um, it'll be biweekly.
[00:21:13] Uh, we've just started the process of even finalizing what those dashboards look like.
[00:21:17] This is something I learned from my demand based days. They were just absolutely best in class at this, um, because pipeline at demand based and and truly the best organizations everywhere, pipeline's always a team sport. The entire company owns it.
[00:21:28] Like, we are in this thing together, And we've got shared goals. And, of course, if you can be sophisticated at how you're measuring where everything comes from to understand how to optimize, that's wonderful.
[00:21:37] But at the end of the day, we've gotta understand how much pipeline do we need, and then what are all the mechanisms as that rolls through the funnel, um, that we can work to optimize, uh, to maximize revenue. Um, so we'll have biweekly cadences that review that really from top to bottom. So everything from, uh, top top of the funnel, the quality of MQLs, and then every piece, uh, of that funnel, um, not just to the close of the deal, but also the post sale experience, which, uh, for us is also at the core of our revenue or go to market motion.
[00:22:02] Toni: I would love to double click on this 1 actually a little bit. Uh, And and maybe that doesn't need to be, you know, what is it exactly that you're doing on Walnut now or planning to do. Right? Because some of that still is forming basically.
[00:22:13] You also mentioned, hey, we Did the very similar thing in, Demandbase, for example. I think this could be a really cool nugget for people to take away because I totally agree with you Like, pipe gen is the number 1 problem for everyone out there, whether they know it or not. Right? kind of, I think the the lesser so sophisticated teams that haven't figured this out, they're always talking about, oh, the reps and then are closing enough and and they're lazy, and that's why we're notating entire.
[00:22:40] I think it's all b s. I think the real reason is they don't have enough to work. That's the problem. That's why they're not actually, uh, being able to, you know, hit their targets. And, yes, sure, you can still optimize, you know, pipe to close, and there's lots of optimization potential and, you know, to teach those reps and enable those reps.
[00:22:56] But ultimately, um, you can have the best reps, but if you don't have any, you know, pipeline, it's it's not gonna work out. Right? So let's let's talk a little bit more about this. I think you call it the, did you call it, the pipeline council or did I just imagine this?
[00:23:09] Funnel
[00:23:09] Catie Ivey: working group is what I called it.
[00:23:11] Toni: the funnel the funnel working group The fun group. The fun group.
[00:23:15] Catie Ivey: There you go.
[00:23:16] Toni: right here.
[00:23:17] Catie Ivey: Yeah. That was That was demand based naming, so I take no credit. But that was what was what we
[00:23:20] called
[00:23:21] Toni: And the so can we just double click a little bit on this? Kind of can you, um, and maybe it's from demand base.
[00:23:26] You know, how did a typical meeting look like? Who was involved? Who was talking? Uh, that would be
[00:23:32] super interesting.
[00:23:33] Catie Ivey: Yeah.
[00:23:33] Sure. Uh, I wasn't prepped to talk about this, but I love it. Great topic. Um, so we had a head of marketing ops, and this was a handful of years ago. So many things, I'm sure, have changed at Demandbase since.
[00:23:42] Uh, but our head of marketing ops was just this phenomenal world class individual. Um, so she had owned and orchestrated the dashboards and the data that we reviewed. Um, so she would run the meeting, kick it off with very high level stats, and we would look at the entirety of current quarter and next quarter pipeline. Uh, and then we would look at the stages and understand how things were progressing. Um, and we, of course, had and this can be super sophisticated or I think super basic. Walnut will be a little bit more basic than some of these.
[00:24:06] Um, but we had very clear metrics at Demandbase for every different type of pipeline that we were building and then what that needed to look like for the different segments of the business because, obviously, enterprise deals take longer to close than mid market, than SMB. So so we had metrics and baselines around all of those, but, it literally took us probably 8 minutes on a weekly basis to have a very clear snapshot of where we were winning and where we were behind.
[00:24:28] Um, and we had a sense of what was coming around the corner that we needed to be very hyper aware of or concerned. and certainly every second line, but most frontline sales leaders were in this meeting as well.
[00:24:37] So it was a relatively large group, so it had to be efficient. So it wasn't a waste of time. Um, but it was everyone had a sense of whether you're running it or not. Like, I know where we're at. I know where the challenges are, and I know where we're winning and where we're really leaning in from a business.
[00:24:49] So that was the initial structure. And then from there, we looked at and this might be 1 piece of the statement you just made that I don't know if disagree is the right word. But when we talk talk about pipeline or go to mark market being a team sport, like, yes. A hundred percent. If you don't have the pipeline to work with, then it doesn't matter what you do at all the other stages.
[00:25:06] It's just fundamentally broken. So you've gotta figure out how to fix that as a first. Um, but then there are so many other mechanisms. Because in that same meeting, there would be conversations where, hey we're ahead of all of the top of the funnel goals, but yet we're missing on second stage opportunities.
[00:25:21] So we're hitting MQLs and SQLs, or we're hitting this first phase and the second phase, but something's falling off a cliff in this segment right here. And then you've got the frontline leader or the second line leader that leads that team, and then they're giving some context. Hey. We're seeing this new competitor that's popping up. And we almost we were always able to get calls from this stage to this stage, and now we're getting kicked in the teeth on pricing.
[00:25:42] I'm just using an example here. But there's some also this kind of on the ground context around, here's where we're really struggling. And then in a perfect world, you've got someone from enablement that's also paying attention and thinking, I can help them fix that. Or you've got someone in product marketing that's thinking, I know how to I I know a solve for that. Oh, we're having an issue with this part of pricing.
[00:26:00] I wonder if we tweaked this 1 thing and got it into the field really quickly. Now we're optimizing not just for the broken piece that's at the top of the funnel, which is super important if that's behind, but also this thing that we've identified mid funnel that if we don't fix it quickly, at least in this segment, like, we're we do not have a path to be successful this quarter or next. So I think the whole thing is very much connected.
[00:26:21] Toni: So, I mean, how many people were in this room when this happened?
[00:26:24] Or, you know, maybe
[00:26:25] Catie Ivey: It was it was virtual. We were doing it over Zoom.
[00:26:27] I think it was probably 22, 20 third.
[00:26:29] Toni: Yeah. That's exactly actually how it sounds like.
[00:26:31] So number 1, this is great for, uh, it's almost alignment, actually, also. Right? Because you have the you said first or second line sales leaders. Um, you had your top funnel folks, uh, probably marketing, maybe your SDR outbound team leaders as well and so forth. Right?
[00:26:47] Uh, I mean, this is a full on alignment session, basically kind of where you are today and what needs to happen in order to hit your target. I think this is absolutely fantastic. Um, now it's it maybe was an hour long, 20 people in there, few people that are probably talking. Was there was that kind of a culture of, let's just say, calling out and I don't wanna say, you know, blaming and shaming or something like this, but was there a culture of like, hey, you know, we are behind on this area and this is your area and you need to now go and fix it? Or was it more like a, more like a collaborative thing?
[00:27:19] And maybe you're just saying it's a collaborative thing. But, uh, really kind of a culture of, okay, you know, there's a there's a problem over there. And that problem is probably gonna result in x amount of revenue, you know, that we are missing by the end of the quarter, neck end of next quarter. Let's all brainstorm. How could we find that money elsewhere?
[00:27:38] What was kind of the, of the the the the modus operanda in order to work through those
[00:27:42] issues?
[00:27:43] Catie Ivey: I love the question. and from my perspective, to have a true culture of collaboration, there also has to be a culture of accountability. That's what you're describing.
[00:27:52] Like, if something is broken and 1 team owns it, then there has to be a sense of how do we fix it. And, yes, there should be an all hands on deck approach of what else can we do, how do we rally around this problem, but there does have to be a clear owner and some semblance of, hey, I don't have an answer here in this meeting. I don't know why this thing has fallen off the cliff or why we're struggling here. But by this meeting 2 weeks from now, I'm gonna have an answer, and I'm gonna have a follow-up in the you know, in the meantime, I may have some additional questions.
[00:28:17] I may have some asks, but a sense of accountability in terms of where things have gone awry and at least what the goal is in terms of who's gonna own fixing them for sure.
[00:28:25] And I think it can also because what I just described at Demandbase was obviously much more sophisticated than what we'll put in place at at Walnut. We're just a really small team. We have a lot less individuals when you think about, you know, people in those leadership roles that own those various pieces. but I think you can accomplish the exact same level of transparency that leads to alignment, that leads to accountability, that leads to really strong execution.
[00:28:46] Those are all very much connected, whether you're talking about a group of 5 or a group of, you know, 55 in a much larger
[00:28:53] Toni: No. Exactly. And I would I would even argue, right, the The the numbers of zeros that you have there on on the pipeline, it doesn't actually that that's not indicative of whether or not you can use that tactic. I think where it starts to become really important is you have multiple channels, maybe in multiple regions. Uh, you know, it gets a little bit fuzzy there and it gets a little bit difficult to drive accountability on that part.
[00:29:16] Um, in order then to also say, well, this is green, this is green, but This is red. What are we gonna do about this? And the consequence is gonna be x. I think there's there needs to be a bit of a data baseline below that, I would say, kind of to have a conversation. But ultimately, the accountability, the collaboration, the transparency, And then the, uh, attitude of let's go fix it, think that's actually what the outcome is.
[00:29:39] That's actually what you wanna have. Right? The sophistication below that is only enabling that to a degree.
[00:29:44] Catie Ivey: I a hundred percent agree.
[00:29:46] Toni: so
[00:29:47] Mikkel: um, 1 thing that's kind of lurking in my head, you raised 35000000, uh, what, year and a half ago, something like this? So we're back to Walnut.
[00:29:56] We're back to Walnut. We're back to Walnut. That's the thing. Uh, you raised 35000000. You're focused on building a US market.
[00:30:01] Outbound is Kind of the new motion. Right? How are you, approaching this next next phase of growth? Because there's also, I imagine, a lot of challenges that come with it. You've been it sounds like mainly inbound driven.
[00:30:13] That team doesn't, um, doesn't sit under you. It sits in Israel as well, and you're building out an outbound motion. So so, You know, did I get it that right? Or
[00:30:24] Catie Ivey: Uh, the inbound folks do all report into me, so sellers and b d do, uh, work in my
[00:30:29] and, yeah, just to clarify, we don't have this massive separate team that's fielding all the inbound. Like, we don't have this big SDR org that's reporting into marketing, um, because a majority of the lead flow that comes in goes directly to AEs. Remember, we're trying to fix this broken buying process, so we're trying to minimize the number of individuals you have to talk to if you actually wanna get a demo of the software or learn about and buy Walnut. Um, so, uh, most of them, it's it's all reporting straight into me, and it it's about really optimizing that experience.
[00:30:54] But I think what you're getting at is that breakdown of if you've got a marketing team that I don't own directly, but we've been very, very dependent on that marketing engine, how do you slowly shift away from that while not shifting away from that? I think that was maybe the crux
[00:31:08] Mikkel: That was exactly where I was going.
[00:31:10] Yeah.
[00:31:11] Catie Ivey: Yeah. I can I can read your mind even over Zoom? And and it's an interesting challenge, and it's an interesting opportunity, um, because I think that we are so incredibly privileged to be in this building stage where we've been able to build on the back of phenomenal inbound demand.
[00:31:25] Uh, but it requires a ton of alignment between myself, our head of marketing, our head of demand gen, of working very even right now, we're finalizing the the financial plan for the year ahead. And so part of that is the entire marketing waterfall. Like, I had to spend a lot of time getting up to speed on what are all of our historicals. And guess what? Our historicals were different in 2022 than they were in 2023 20 23. was a tough year for anyone selling into software companies.
[00:31:50] So looking at what changed, what were the mechanisms, what are things that went really well, uh, how much did we have to spend for every single lead that came in? Like, what's the the dollars and cents plans that are gonna get us to the percentage of inbound that we feel like is gonna drive us to the the number this year? Um, so that's definitely not a me planning versus a him planning. We're we're planning it together because it's gotta all be 1, uh, cohesive plan.
[00:32:11] Mikkel: Got it. And and I'm also just curious because you said you're trying to run a really, like, lean machine with this few people involved. But do you still run the classic SDR outbound meeting booking and then pass off to AE? That's, I'm guessing, still part of the
[00:32:24] Catie Ivey: We have a really small team of SDRs that do only outbound demand generation, so they're the beginning of that as we're building the outbound motion. Um, we don't currently have SDRs that are filled fielding inbound demand.
[00:32:35] Toni: So, actually, this was, you know, 1 of my next questions. So Drift and SalesLoft, they just merged completely different topic. But Drift very, very you know, early on, they had this no forms, uh, thing?
[00:32:47] And uh, and they should everything, you know, everything should be done through their chatbot. Right? And and, um, you know, from from folklore by now, you know, it's like, well, they kind of scrapped all the forms.
[00:32:57] They have forms back now, by the way. But they scrapped all the, forms because, hey, they need to be you need to be aligned with your message. Right?
[00:33:04] um, you guys are talking about the, you know, the the the sales process or the go to market process fundamentally broken, uh, and that there's this whole demo thing. How does how does that affect your own go to market?
[00:33:15] How do you how do you live your own own, uh, vision actually? And how do you how do you eat your own own dog food or drink your own champagne in that sense? Kind of how does that translate back to what you do specifically in your go to market that probably other teams, um, either haven't figured out yet or or simply are not woken up yet to the, uh, new way of how buyers actually wanna interact with your brand.
[00:33:37] Catie Ivey: It's literally the most important thing I've been focused on since day 1 is how do we make my go to market org the absolute best power users of Walnut at every stage of the buying process in the universe. Um, so we're not yet currently there, um, but there are a lot of interesting super positive things that we do with our products.
[00:33:56] And it is some of those examples I gave earlier on in the call. It's how do you connect the entire experience of how someone's interacting with, you know, product tours that are on your website, the various things that they're interacting with via email. So they my my team, they use Walnut to build we call them walnuts, but you can think about walnut as just some version of an interactive demo. Um, so they send Walnuts in their pre meeting, uh, emails that go out.
[00:34:19] So if you've booked an inbound meeting with us, you're gonna get a Walnut at least a day before that meeting.
[00:34:24] Um, that's gonna capture some small piece of our product that you're interested. Then we're gonna use our product also to understand, did you click through any piece of that interactive demo? If you did, that rep is gonna know what you've spent time on, what you were interested in. They're gonna use that as part of the conversation. Of course, we're we showed, uh, examples of customers in our first demos as well so you can understand how our customers are using our own product to demo, um, in various different public facing ways.
[00:34:48] But then every aspect of the follow-up, the additional conversations that you're having are gonna be anchored around some aspect of our product that you were interested in, wanted to learn more about, wanted to test. So you've got it at your fingertips, uh, throughout the entire buying process.
[00:35:03] Toni: I love this. It's and maybe this is unpopular now, but to a degree. what you're what you're kind of enabling there is you give mid market enterprise companies, or people that sell to mid market enterprise companies with, like, maybe fairly complex products, you give them a little bit of a sniff of the of the PLG experience. You know, it's like hey, you can try, you can trial, you can see it, you can interact with this. you don't have to talk to a a seller, you can actually click already here. It's not the right thing, but it's almost the right thing. Right?
[00:35:34] So I think this this kind of buyer behavior that has been trained and, uh, and popularized through this whole PLG movement, basically. Uh, to a degree, yes, it's also the product that they're selling and, you know, I'm totally aware of this but, uh, to a degree kind of that's that's basically almost what you wanna what you enable with this customer centric approach. like hey, the we're not holding the demo hostage. Mhmm. you know, you it's you you don't need to wait for the fifth call to finally see product.
[00:36:04] We're actually gonna we're gonna give it before the call, and we're gonna put it on the website. And uh, and we're not gonna put all gates around it. We actually wanna use it to see what you're interested in so then we can tailor a better, uh, uh, buying experience and probably higher conversion rates and give probably all of those ROI arguments handy right now, uh, for then the um, uh, the seller to be more successful. Right? Kind of that's that's almost what you're enabling with this, Uh, with this approach and obviously at the same time, yes, that's also the the the product that you guys are selling.
[00:36:34] Catie Ivey: And we all throw around the the Gartner stat that 75 percent of buyers want a rep free experience.
[00:36:40] That same report also talks about that those people with a rep free buying experience end up not buying the right thing and regret the purchase. So there is certainly this perfect in between where, yes, as a buyer, I wanna be empowered to do more of the education and more of the experience on my own. But we also acknowledge at Walnut, we're selling something that the product itself is not complex. But when you're talking about impacting or transforming how a company is going to market, that's massively complex. There's change management.
[00:37:06] There are big decisions that have to be made as part of that process. So it's finding that sweet spot of how do we give them access to as much as possible to understand our product and learn about it and experience it every step of the way so that the conversations we're having as sellers or executives or others that are engaged are the right conversations? They're the impactful conversations versus the 30 minute or 1 hour canned demo that feels exactly the same as every other demo that they've gone through. Like, that's not the best use of their time.
[00:37:31] Mikkel: I also wonder, like, with with this while you're kind of shifting the approach to sales to kind of run how you envision sales should run, you also have money you need to deploy to continue the growth trajectory.
[00:37:43] Right? And that sometimes means adding more sales folks onto the team. Right? and you said you kinda wanna run a not scrappy, but you wanna run a lean machine kind of. Right?
[00:37:52] So how do you go about actually scaling that motion, specifically also in the states right now and knowing whether that's the right bet versus should we could we do more inbound or, like, so how do you go about basically deploying that, um, those resources to grow, yeah,
[00:38:07] grow the company?
[00:38:08] Catie Ivey: And and we're hiring.
[00:38:09] We're adding headcount. We're just doing it very strategically and purposefully. Um, so and and we did some growth back right after our initial funding round or the second funding round a year and a half ago, um, because we've matured a bit since then, and we're anchoring more on an outbound, all bound, just a little bit more focused approach. It's a different maybe type of rep that you're interviewing. We're also at a different stage of the market.
[00:38:30] Things have shifted a bit in the last 2 years. Um, so in ensuring that we're hiring the right individuals for the various segments that we sell into, um, because we've we've essentially got 3 segments of our business that are different size of companies. And as we think about building that more strategic outbound motion, specifically for us, that's upper mid market and then the lower end of enterprise.
[00:38:49] Um, so we're hiring specific reps, um, that we feel like have some experience and some excitement, not just to come in and take over a playbook and replicate what's already been done before, but we're we're looking for builders for sure, um, that have an excitement to be at this early stage of a company as someone that's building a category and really helping to create a go to market motion as well.
[00:39:06] Mikkel: I I think that's super interesting because sometimes I what you notice happens is company x raises whatever series a opens up 20 roles for sales reps, same month almost. Right? Yeah.
[00:39:17] And I can't see that going very well in a lot of cases. So being purposeful, um, for me makes a lot of sense? There there's another thing Kind of layered in there to to what you're set almost it sounds like the, profile you're going after is fundamentally different because you wanna have you wanna create this almost different experience as well. Can you maybe tell us a bit little bit more, like, what's the archetype of the role you're going after? how is it different from what what you've seen?
[00:39:42] I mean, you've been at Marketo and Demandbase, um, and assume there are some classic profiles you'd go after there versus versus now.
[00:39:49] Catie Ivey: Well, it's interesting.
[00:39:50] Some of, at least, the interviews that I'm running now and the reps that I'm specifically looking for, they actually do meet some of that criteria of what made a really successful rep at Demandbase or even Marketo back in the day because they're insanely curious about b to b sales, b to b go to market. They have an opinion and a point of view. They didn't just take a sales job because it was like the career path that landed in their lap. But most of us are accidental salespeople if that's the path that we went down. Uh, at least my generation, most of it was an accident.
[00:40:19] Um, but there is some element of an unlock where, like, they are genuinely interested in this space and excited to help figure things out and learn and are intellectually curious versus someone that we've all met these amazing people that could sell anything to anyone. Like, you give them some clunky piece of, I don't know, software that's gonna sell into a CFO line of business, and they're gonna figure it out, and they're gonna learn how to sell it. Like, that's an amazing skill set. That's different than the skill set of a seller that we need at Walnut today. Like, we need someone, of course, that's got some sales DNA and sales acumen, but also someone that is fundamentally interested in being in this space of b 2 b sales, b 2 b go to market.
[00:40:59] They have some ambitions to grow a career in sales tech specifically, um, um, because that's the level of curiosity that's gonna take to I mean, not just learn our product, but figure out what's what's b to b go to market gonna look like in 18 months or 24 months? What does AI really mean for the profession of professional selling? Like, there's a lot of big questions that I think we're gonna be or we have the potential to be on the forefront of answering, so we need a specific person to help us get there.
[00:41:23] Toni: cool. Okay, Catie. mean, I think this was a really cool conversation.
[00:41:28] Really interesting to hear, obviously, the the the difficulties, the complexities surrounding growing Walnut also in those challenging times right now. Right? We we talked a little bit about the the full funnel council, the funnel team, the funnel meeting, uh, the funnel group
[00:41:43] Catie Ivey: Obviously, the agent's struggling with that one.
[00:41:45] Toni: I think that was that was really insightful. Lots lots to take away for folks listening, I think.
[00:41:50] and then really talking about this shifting landscape, that you're trying to meet with maybe a different or more specific kind of salesperson. Actually kind of tackling a specific of that part. So really cool to hear all of that stuff. And Catie, thank you so much for being here and, uh, and and sharing your wisdom with
[00:42:08] Catie Ivey: Yeah. Mikkel Toni, it was lovely to meet both of you, and thanks so much for having me.
[00:42:12] Toni: Wonderful. Have a good one. Bye bye.