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The Healthy Wealth Experience - Where Financial Success Meets Personal Wellbeing
Host Chris Hall combines 30+ years in finance with wellness expertise to help entrepreneurs and professionals build wealth without sacrificing their health. From investment strategies to money management, we offer advice to make financial success more sustainable.
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Chris Hall (00:47)
Hello and welcome to the Healthy Wealth Experience. I am your host, Chris Hall, and I am super excited to share with you a guest today, Dr. Kelly McCann. And she is a doctor, medical doctor. She has a specialty in environmental sciences. She has a pediatrician. She's done spiritual psychology. It's like she's covered the gamut. So you guys are going to get a lot of good information out of her today. Without further ado, thank you so much for being here, Dr. McCann.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (01:14)
Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate your invitation and I'm happy to share information and help your listeners.
Chris Hall (01:21)
Great. So I did kind of give a quick bio on you. Maybe people don't know I was a pharmaceutical rep for 10 years. I was in the traditional medicine model from the, you know, what I call the bad guy perspective. But, you know, I mean, we all do our things, right? So and then you learn and you grow and you learn and you grow. So there's still a place for that stuff, obviously. But like, tell me about like your transition from
Kelly K. McCann, MD (01:34)
Yeah.
Chris Hall (01:45)
Obviously, have a lot of really good internal medicine is a very hard modality to specialize in. you've got that. You're an internist as well. So tell us how you of went from general practice internist, pediatrician to environmental health.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (02:01)
Sure, know, ironically I was a music major in college and so, and I found I didn't really, I didn't really want to do that. So I had to figure out what I wanted to do. I got a master's in library science because my mom is a librarian and at least I would have a skill. And in that transition I figured out that I was interested in the mind and the brain and how it worked, but.
Chris Hall (02:06)
That's awesome.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (02:23)
didn't want to go back to undergrad for more undergraduate science courses and medical school was the kind of the path into helping people and understanding that mind body connection. And it was really interested in how we organized information. So I was thinking neuroscience, but you know, I chose medical school and I also had a meditation teacher at the time who was an acupuncturist and I just thought, oh that.
That's what I want to do. I really want to help people as holistically as possible. My parents and I had a conversation. like, Kelly, you should really try to go to medical school. We think that this would be best for you. And I made a pact with myself that if I got into medical school, I'd go. And if I didn't, I'd go to acupuncture school. Chris, I got into four medical schools. So God was saying, OK, you've got to go be a doctor with a music major. Yes.
Chris Hall (03:09)
Yeah.
That's awesome with a music major. it's great
Kelly K. McCann, MD (03:18)
Yeah, I went to Tulane and they loved arts and music. so many of my classmates were so talented. We would have we call them music and medicine concerts and people would sing and play guitar and dance. Like we had so many talented people. It's really awesome to see all these talented people in medicine. Voice.
Chris Hall (03:37)
What is your instrument of choice?
Okay, all right. Wow, that's great. β wow, very cool. When I was a pharmacist, one of the things that sort of surprised me the most, I think, was that many physicians also are very musical. It's like it's a hand-in-hand type of a thing. And you would think it's left brain, right brain, so they wouldn't match, but they do often match. I can't tell you how many doctors I know that...
Kelly K. McCann, MD (03:41)
I was a singer. Yeah, I thought I wanted to sing opera.
Chris Hall (04:04)
that play an instrument or sing or something to that effect. So that's pretty cool.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (04:08)
Yeah, it is really
neat. And I love that about medicine and the possibility that there are lots of other areas that kind of feed into that.
Chris Hall (04:18)
Yeah,
that's great. So at what point β through medical school did you decide that you wanted to kind of like open your own practice or did you start out working with somebody else? How did that work out?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (04:28)
Right, so in medical school you're just in the trenches and it was tough. But I was a bargain shopper and at Tulane they had a school of public health and so I could get a master's in public health along with my medical degree. So I did that. Got to go to Ghana and spend a couple months in Ghana, West Africa during medical school and that was fascinating and I really loved public health and yet, you know, in terms of picking a
Chris Hall (04:32)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (04:55)
specialty, again, I couldn't make a choice. And so rather than doing medicine or pediatrics or family practice, which I wasn't...
I wanted to do both and I wanted to do the hard version. So internal medicine and pediatrics has a combined residency program. There are probably a hundred programs in the country that do medpeds and we spend half of the time in the internal medicine wards and then half of the time on the pediatric side. And it's very intense, lots of intensive care units, neonatal intensive care, pediatric intensive care and lots of hospital based work.
And so that's what I chose to do and I tried to balance that out. So my continuity care clinic was with a medical acupuncturist, a doctor who did medical acupuncture. So I got to like pull that in, right? Pull that into my life. And then when I graduated, was like, thank God, I can finally do what I want to do. So I did the fellowship in integrative medicine at the University of Arizona with Dr. Andrew Wild.
Chris Hall (05:43)
You got back to acupuncture. Good for you.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (05:58)
Center for Integrative Medicine. And that was a two year program I lived in Tucson. And I was on the, I was one of the last in the residential classes. So they now have an online exclusive program, but I actually lived in Tucson and got to go out to Andy Wiles ranch in the desert and cook dinner with him and my classmates. And it was a really β very, very special time. And then I moved to Southern California and I opened my
practice.
And, you know, I didn't really want to open my own practice. I call myself a reluctant entrepreneur and business owner. I wanted a job, but I wanted to live in Southern California. And I really didn't want to go work for Kaiser because, you know, I had all this medical knowledge and different ways of thinking about things. And I happened to be calling hospital systems and looking for opportunities. And Hogue Hospital in Newport Beach was recruiting internists.
Chris Hall (06:47)
8.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (06:54)
to come and open their private practices here. And I actually got a support agreement from Hogue Hospital to open my practice, which is amazing, right? So they paid my salary and my overhead expenses for two years and all I had to do was stay in the area for additional three years. Oh, what a hardship. Suffering in Costa Mesa when it's sunny and 70 most of the year. Yeah, so.
Chris Hall (07:03)
Wow, that's fantastic.
Yeah, right. Just suffering in Costa Mesa.
Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (07:23)
I got really blessed to be able to open my practice and practice the way that I want. Soon after that I started down the functional medicine path with the Institute of Functional Medicine. I had met a mentor and a colleague in Arizona named Dr. Lynn Patrick who told me that I needed to study environmental medicine and so I did. I did a fellowship in environmental medicine to really understand how environmental chemicals impact our health.
And this is like 2006, seven, eight. This is long before TikTok and Instagram blew up and was talking, all these talking heads and health influencers talking about environmental toxins. I learned from the best and the brightest and the people who have been doing this for decades. Environmental medicine has been around since the 1960s, right? Taking care of complex chronic illness patients.
Chris Hall (08:15)
So
obviously the listeners will know pediatrics. I think that's what goes without saying. Explain to the audience a little bit about what to be an internist means, and then also what you were just discussing. Explain what that means to people.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (08:27)
Sure. So an internist compared to a family doctor. So a family doctor residency is three years and they learn not only how to see patients in the clinic, take care of children as well, but they're also required to do surgery rotations and OB gynecology rotations so that they can do obstetrics and gynecology if needed if they're in rural areas.
an internist, this is the residency program that you have to do if you want to go on and be a specialist. And it's a three year program. When we combine it with pediatrics, it's a four year program. yeah, and what we're doing is we're learning how to take care of more complex patients.
Chris Hall (09:07)
gonna ask that.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (09:16)
And so that's why I said we spend a lot of time in the intensive care unit. So some people go on and they just do intensive care. You can do a fellowship in intensive care. They can go on and become pulmonologists or cardiologists or gastroenterologists. So all urologists, they did a residency in internal medicine first. And then they go on and they do a fellowship, which is usually another three or sometimes four years to become a specialist in a certain order.
system.
And then on the flip side, you've got your surgeons. And so general surgery is the residency that people go to when they want to be surgeons who do things like gallbladder surgeries or appendix surgeries or hernia surgeries. And then if you want to specialize after that, you do a different residency in maybe plastic surgery.
or then you can go on and do ENT. So there's the foundational piece and then there's the specialty piece and so an internist is the foundation piece and these are where a lot of people who you know who basically were adult practitioners we take care of adults.
Chris Hall (10:28)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. So for those listening, and I don't have any facts to back this up, but I'll just give you from my own personal experience, for about every 100 primary care doctors, there's usually one internist. It's what I would consider like a super specialty. It would be like, think if you were going to stack them, would be like general practice. Then you'd have like an internist. And then you would have like a specialist, like an endocrinologist or a cardiologist or something like that. Would that be accurate? Would you think that'd be accurate?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (10:52)
you
Sure, yeah. So there's probably more family doctors out there who are doing primary care, and then there's a lot of mid-levels now these days, a PA or a nurse practitioner who are taking the place of primary care providers, and in some states, naturopathic doctors can also be primary care. But the internists have the most rigorous training for the complex illnesses. And I feel very comfortable managing many conditions
Chris Hall (11:02)
True. Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (11:22)
I feel like I have to refer to a specialist.
Chris Hall (11:25)
Well, so and I feel like
that's a really good segue into like what you're doing now, right? Because like you're not just like you weren't just doing antibiotics and like blood pressure medications. Like you were like looking at human beings that were let's say they were sicker than the average human being that goes to a doctor. So like I think it's a good segue into what you're doing. So how did you how did you transition into that part of it?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (11:45)
Well...
I would say, Chris, that I never really transitioned because this was always where it was going to go, right? I think for a lot of my colleagues, they have this aha moment where writing the prescriptions and making the referrals to the specialist and having 10 minutes with patients is just not fulfilling. And they recognize that it's just a band-aid. The whole system is just band-aiding things. And then they realize, OK, I want to do more
Chris Hall (11:51)
Got it. Okay.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (12:12)
than just band-aid things, I wanna actually help people, right? So the way that I describe it is conventional medicine is looking for the label. The framework is we wanna know what your symptoms are describing in terms of a diagnosis. What is the label that I'm gonna put on you? If you've got abdominal pain and some bloating after eating and maybe alternating constipation, diarrhea, you have irritable bowel syndrome.
the internist or the gastroenterologist feels good. We got your label, we know what to do. We can give you these different kinds of medications. Maybe if they're forward thinking, they'll give you some probiotics. Maybe they'll even talk about diet a little bit, but they're not getting at the root cause. Functional and integrative medicine is asking why.
Is this happening to you? What is it about your dietary choices, your immune system, your genetics, your environmental toxicant exposures that you're having these issues? And so it's a completely different paradigm. I wanna know why. And then there are a bunch of...
main buckets of potential wise. Could be, like I said, the environmental toxicants, which cause all sorts of havoc that we can dive in a little bit. I see mold as a driver, mold and water damage buildings in people's homes, a huge driver for all sorts of dysfunctions in the body.
And then chronic infections, Lyme disease, Bartonella, these infections that people might not even know that they have, that can be a huge issue. EMF exposure, trauma, adverse childhood events. There's a lot of potential buckets of why things are going off course for you. And then just to complete this topic,
Chris Hall (13:52)
Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (13:56)
I also am really curious about the root of the root cause, right? Because we're all exposed to a lot of different things on this planet. There are hundreds of thousands of chemicals now, but not everybody is sick and not everybody has the same presentation even if they're in the same house. Like when I have a family who's mold exposed, the mom and the dad look very different from each other than they do from the kids, but they're all sick. Why is that?
Yeah, you could say it's genetics, but some of them have the same genes or at least shared genes, so they still look different. It's not just genetics. It's not just diet. It's really what are, you know, what is the mental, emotional, spiritual component to what's going on?
Chris Hall (14:28)
me.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (14:38)
in that person? What are the beliefs that they have about themselves? Are they worthy? Are they okay? Do they have good boundaries? People who don't have great boundaries, who aren't really clear what's my stuff and what's not my stuff, they might have immune system issues because your immune system is the part of your body that's supposed to say, okay, this is me and this is not me. And if you don't know, how does your immune system know?
Chris Hall (15:02)
Right. Well, and I mean, like in, you know, clinical trials for medicines all the time, you know, there, there, there's a placebo group, right. And one of the drugs I sold was Viagra and we had a competitor, β Levitra and they had showed like, you know, 56 % improvement in erectile dysfunction, you know, based on a survey that they take five question survey. And that, but what was crazy was the placebo group was like 42%. So it's like, it's so it's always,
fascinating me that our body could absolutely do the things that we want it to do if we just convinced that it needs to be done. But I think that works. What you're saying, basically, I think is it works in reverse, right? So we can think bad things about ourselves and our body and our health and those can come true as well.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (15:41)
Absolutely. Yeah.
Yes, they actually have a name for it, nocebo effect, right? Placebo effect, nocebo effect. I'm pretty sure that's it, something like that. Yeah, yeah, so what we think and what we tell ourselves really impacts ourselves, what really impacts ourselves and therefore our organs and therefore our whole body, yeah.
Chris Hall (15:50)
No, Seabowl.
Yeah, that's great.
Yeah.
So you talked about the spiritual side of things. Do you try to implement spirituality into your treatment plans? Do you try to make sure that they're meditating in a certain way, or if they're not meditating that they're maybe doing yoga? Is there some treatment plan around helping people? Because I would assume that the average person doesn't have those kinds of tools.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (16:28)
It's true, but remember, they're coming to me because they have physical symptoms. so, you know, the way to explain this is, well, you go to your doctor if you have physical problems. You go to your therapist or your psychiatrist if you have mental-emotional problems, and then maybe if you have spiritual problems, you go see your guru or your, you know, priest or rabbi or, you know, whatever, spiritual advisor.
Chris Hall (16:33)
Right.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (16:51)
way that I would really love to change the conversation is to say, they're all like...
this, know, everything is intertwined. Every single cell in the body has life force energy in it. What's that life force energy? That's you. That's your spirit. That's your intuition. That's, I mean, if you believe in something that alivens us, which I think it's really clear when you see a dead body and a live body, there's a big difference, right? There's a big difference. So what is that?
Chris Hall (16:57)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (17:19)
Call whatever you want, but we'll just for ease of conversation, we'll call that spirit or soul. That's in every part of our body, and it's critically important for how our physical bodies function, how our emotional selves function. And this idea that we can silo...
I mean it's bad enough in Western medicine, right? You've got your cardiologist for your heart and your pulmonologist for your lungs and your gastroenterologist for your GI tract and everybody's got their specialty and we're trying to like parse apart the human being. We really can't. We really can't. And when we recognize that we can't, we have to make different ways of dealing with things.
Chris Hall (17:56)
Right. Right.
What are some of the, I mean, you kind of briefly touched on it, but what are some of the things that are really messing up people's bodies right now, environmentally? What do you think is the biggest culprits?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (18:14)
I think the biggest culprits are the environmental chemicals because they're absolutely ubiquitous. β
Chris Hall (18:21)
Like a glyphosate, is
that what you're about?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (18:23)
Yeah, so I call it the alphabet soup, right? Because we've got PCBs and pesticides like DDT. Now these were banned for use in the 70s, but they're ubiquitous. These are some of those forever chemicals. We can't get them out of the body very easily because they're fat soluble.
Chris Hall (18:26)
Okay.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (18:42)
And then you've got parafluorinates. This is the PFASs and the PFOSs. Well, those are ubiquitous too. In fact, a statistic I learned recently is that 45 % of the public drinking water has PFASs in it. That's crazy. That's crazy. It is a huge number and they're called forever chemicals for a reason. We can't easily get them out of the body.
Chris Hall (18:59)
That's a huge number, yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (19:08)
terrifying. So you got to filter water. So here we are with all of our, you know, chemicals and then we've got different kinds of pesticides like glyphosate.
Those may or may not be persistent. And then we've got volatile organic compounds, VOCs, which are gases, solvent, which are liquids, which are toxic to the immune system and the nervous system. And then things like the bisphenol, so BPA is another of the alphabet soup. β This is the thing that makes plastic hard.
Chris Hall (19:36)
Right?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (19:39)
It's ubiquitous, not only in hard plastic, but it's used in receipt paper. So every time you grab a receipt, you're... Good.
Chris Hall (19:45)
Mm-hmm.
I won't touch my receipts now. I won't. Like when
they go to give it to me, I just hold the bag out. I'm like, you're touching it already. You can keep it. Yeah, try not to touch them.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (19:51)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, or have them email it to you.
Right, I feel badly for all the cashiers. I want to tell them, so put gloves on, don't touch those things with your hands. And it's especially worse if you use the hand sanitizer and then you grab your receipt, it's gonna be even more absorbed. Not a great idea, not a great idea.
Chris Hall (20:00)
Yeah.
Right?
β That's a good
tip right there.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (20:16)
Yeah, so try not to handle your receipts. Bisphenols also line cans, so all the canned drinks, canned soda, carbonated mineral water, all your canned vegetables. Yeah, it's huge.
Chris Hall (20:30)
You beat me to that. I
was going to say, like, I don't think that people know that you can buy a can of organic pinto beans. But then you look inside of it when you go to dump it out, and it's got a plastic liner in it that's made with BPA. And I think that's the most bananas thing. Like, if you're going to make give me if you're going to charge me 150 % more for organic, then why would you put that terrible plastic in there? But it's just I don't know. We're just we don't if we don't ask for it. They don't give it. They literally like, well, we can save a dollar.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (20:44)
Thanks.
Chris Hall (20:59)
you know, on 100 cans if we do it this way. we're going to do it this way. It's crazy.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (21:03)
Yeah,
it is crazy. no, not all, so if you find something that says, it's BPA free, it's also really important to know that BPF, BPSs, the other bisphenols are just as bad, if not worse than BPA. So BPA free is not the way to go either. You want glass, want stainless steel, you wanna avoid the hard plastics as much as you can.
Chris Hall (21:17)
Hmm.
So you had mentioned filtered water. So I know that like for me, you know, I have always bought the five gallon BPA free jugs and I would take them to the local place and they would, you know, triple reverse osmosis filtered and all that stuff like that. but I'm, it sounds like I'm still putting in something that's bad for me. Is that right? Okay. So I got to switch it to.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (21:48)
Yeah, there's still this,
you gotta switch it to a glass bottle.
Chris Hall (21:52)
five
gallon I don't know if I could do they have five gallon glass bottles
Kelly K. McCann, MD (21:56)
I get mine delivered from Mountain Valley Water. That's what I do. Yeah, yeah. I love Mountain Valley Water. There you go, Mountain Valley. β Yeah, my favorite water by far.
Chris Hall (21:59)
β nice. Plug for Mountain Valley Water. There you go.
You
Kelly K. McCann, MD (22:09)
But yes, you can go to those places and you can ask. If they don't have them, they need to have glass. And you could get a three or a two gallon glass bottle that might be easier. I mean, it's like a workout. It is a workout to lift that thing and put it on. But you know what? I forced myself to do that.
Chris Hall (22:19)
Yeah, that'd probably be easier to carry around. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I
have a bottom loader, so it would be a little bit easier. So when it comes to filtered water, though, so like again, like so if we get filtered water from the store, like a smart water or I wouldn't say the Sony because I know that's just tap water that's gone through a filter, but then they put salt back in it. It's the weirdest thing. But like anything, you know, that you see like a smart water or Fiji water, something like that. But it's in a but it's in a plastic bottle. So we're still we're like we're kind of getting it right, but we're not really getting it right. Is that correct?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (22:31)
There you go.
That's correct. There's things like this, path water. I don't know if it's aluminum, but it's probably better than plastic, right? β And you can definitely, like, there are other companies that have stainless steel. Glass is a little harder when you're going into a convenience store. But, you know, I bring my own bottle with me.
Chris Hall (22:59)
yeah, and that's aluminum, right?
You're right. It's so true.
Mm-hmm. Yeah,
no, I like that a lot. And so as far as, there you go. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (23:22)
get one of these, right? It's glass. So I just fill it up with
my Mountain Valley water and bring it with me everywhere. And you know, I'm a dork. Yeah.
Chris Hall (23:29)
And the rubber around it makes it feel like, so if you did have a little spill
with it, it wouldn't crack. But I mean, if you drop it, drop it, I'm sure it'll crack.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (23:36)
Exactly.
I'm sure it would and then, you know, that's really heavy. So when I go on plane trips, I've got, you know, one of these that's stainless steel.
Chris Hall (23:46)
That's
a clean canteen, right?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (23:49)
And think it's hydro flask, yeah. But, you know, it's again, same idea. So it's not perfect, but it's definitely better than buying my own. Yeah.
Chris Hall (23:51)
Oh, Hydroflask, okay, yeah. Same idea, yeah.
plastic. Okay,
good. Okay, I like that. As far as filtration. So again, like I know a lot of stores outside the store, sometimes right inside the store, they'll have a place where you can fill it up. And it's like triple filtered, it's reverse osmosis, it's charcoal filtered, it's got all these things. Is that the kind of filter we're talking about? Is that something people should be looking for? Is there something like that, that they can put in their home system that isn't $17,000?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (24:25)
Yeah, so there are a variety of different options and and water filtration is tricky, you know, I think What my what I would say is it's important to know what you need to get out of your water, right? Like what is really the contaminant that you need to? filter for so sometimes it's worthwhile to do water tests You can get you know under the sink reverse osmosis water filtration
systems and they're going to be decent. β And yeah, you can pay a lot. You can pay a little bit less. A whole house water filter if you own your house would be the best investment. And then you may still want to filter your drinking water further. But you we think about we have to think about like, well, when you're showering, you know, you're still getting all the chlorine and all the you know, the other things. So and yes, you can get a you know, a shower water filter, but
Chris Hall (24:58)
Mm-hmm.
I was thinking the same thing.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (25:22)
there's no good water filtration systems, or I'm sorry, at point of water with a tub or with your washer dryer or, know, so.
Chris Hall (25:30)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (25:34)
In an ideal world, if you own your house, you want a whole house water filtration system that's reverse osmosis, ideal. If you can't afford that, then you have to look at what's really in your water and how aggressive do you need to be to try and remove β those contaminants from your water. And then look at what's possible and what do you need to really focus on. β But...
Chris Hall (25:48)
Yeah.
Yeah,
think that obviously you can go hog wild on this stuff too. But I think the take home message is do what you can now and then improve upon it over time. for me, exactly what we're just talking about, I'm not going to fill up plastic bottles anymore. I'm not going to buy plastic bottles of water. going to have a hydro flask or something like that. I'm going to have something glass.
that I can get my water out of and I'm not gonna store it in something that's bad for me after I've taken the time to run down to the store and lift that heavy bottle and out of the grocery cart and then realize I didn't do any good for it. So I think small steps is probably good.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (26:29)
That's right.
Yeah, I mean, what I like to encourage people to do is, you know, kind of plan out your year to do something that's going to be of health service every week or every two weeks. And then, you know, can move on to your next thing and make that commitment because we really need to filter our water. And then we probably should talk about filtering our air too, Chris.
Chris Hall (26:58)
Yeah, let's
talk about that. Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (27:00)
Okay, so
it's really not, it's something that needs to happen because our indoor air is sometimes even more toxic than our outdoor air.
And if you live in a large city, the outdoor air, as you know, is pretty contaminated, especially in the LA area, right? I'm in Orange County. Our air is a little bit better down here, but there's still a lot of traffic and a lot of exhaust, and the outdoor air is not fantastic. And the indoor air, many of the building materials that we're using to build our homes are...
Chris Hall (27:11)
Hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (27:32)
rich with chemicals. So you've got paints with VOCs and polyvinyl flooring. That's plastic. And you a lot of the building materials use glues, particle board and...
These things are not necessarily healthy. There's formaldehyde, there's a whole bunch of other chemicals in them. And so the air in our homes may not be the healthiest. The newer the buildings, the more potentially problematic in terms of chemicals. And then if there's been water damage or if there's an older building, then you have more concerns for mold and mold toxins.
And then there's all the breakdown of all of our plastic. So our computers, our TV screens, our alarm clocks, our kids' toys, all of the plastic. There's so much plastic in our world these days, and it's all breaking down. And then on top of that, we start to think about, all of our polyester clothing.
Chris Hall (28:19)
.
Right, I'm wearing one them right now, yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (28:26)
Right? Yeah,
you know, I don't have yoga pants on today, but so many women live in yoga pants. That's like polyester's plastic, right? And every time we wash it, it breaks down a little bit. That's why we get so much plastic and contaminants in our water. And then when you dry it in the dryer, now you've got little tiny particles in your dust.
Chris Hall (28:37)
Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (28:50)
So we really need to filter our air. We need to vacuum on a regular basis. We need to dust on a regular basis to keep down and minimize the amount of chemicals in the dust, in the air, in our home environments.
Chris Hall (29:03)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (29:06)
the other thing think about is when we walk outside and then we walk inside with all of our, with our shoes on, you know, really one of the best things that we can do is take our shoes off at the door and put, you know, indoor shoes only because if you walk on somebody's guard, you know, you walk to the park and they've sprayed glyphosate and pesticides and other sorts of stuff. And then you walk into your home and now you've got
know, pesticides and all sorts of who knows what on your shoes that you've now traipsed into the house too.
Chris Hall (29:36)
right?
I like so I like the idea of an indoor shoe. Because like I sometimes I like to walk around the house in shoes. I don't know why I like that feeling. So sometimes I like to be barefoot. Sometimes I want to be in a shoe. So that makes sense to have a shoe that's just indoor. And again, like, I think a lot of cultures, they have a nice little slipper, you know, something that's, you know, it's probably made out of plastic, but we could find something that's not made out of plastic. But but that's good idea. I like that. And I remember back in COVID.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (29:58)
Yeah. Exactly.
Chris Hall (30:03)
Um, you know, when we were all terrified of everything all the time, uh, that was the one time that I would literally, uh, take my shoes off before I would take them off in the garage. And I sometimes I would even take my clothes off in the garage and not even take those inside, which probably is a little bit beyond, but, um, but I remember I, so there's a stuff I used to have for football gear. It's, it's called clear gear or something like that. And you spray it on there and it's not supposed to be non-toxic. And the idea is it's supposed to kill all the stuff. So I would always spray down my clothes in my shoes before I walked in.
And then I figured by the time I was going to put them on again, they would be kind of like killed or dried off or whatever. yeah, and then COVID kind of like, you know, when it's course and then I walk in the house all the time with my shoes on. So I just totally forgot that there's other things out there.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (30:36)
Bye.
Yeah, yeah, well that's why we're having this conversation.
Chris Hall (30:48)
Exactly
right, exactly right. So how does someone like I know a person who basically, you know, says they're allergic to mold and they can walk in a house and immediately know that there's mold in the house. They're like a human mold tester. How do you how do you find out like how to do it? Because when I looked up online, you know, like it didn't ever seem to be like there's like, this is the this is exactly how you do it. It seemed like
Hey, we're selling this product, so it's the best way. We're selling this product, so it's the best way. But from your opinion, what's the best way for people to test mold in their house?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (31:19)
Again, it kind of depends on your level of suspicion and under financial situation. So the gold standard, if you really think that there is a water intrusion mold issue is to hire a professional called an indoor environmental professional. There's an organization, the letters are ISEAI.org, that stands for
for International Society for Environmentally Acquired Illness. And I was a founding member of the organization, founding board member.
And they train physicians and practitioners to help patients with environmentally acquired illness. And they also train indoor environmental professionals. And so these are the way that I would say it is not all mold inspectors are created equal. And if you are...
If you're a mold sensitive or you suspect that you are sick because of mold in your environment, you want to hire a mold inspector who actually understands that mold illness can present in many, different ways beyond just allergies and asthma. So in the medical literature, they say, you know, there's a good correlation between asthma, allergies, and eczema and mold exposure.
Chris Hall (32:35)
Hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (32:45)
but many of the patients that I see who are mold-exposed have brain fog, they have fatigue, they have fibromyalgia, they've got GI issues, they might have small intestinal bacterial growth, they've got fungal issues, they've got mood issues, they're a mess, they're hypersensitive to all sorts of things, and that's not really in the medical literature. So most doctors don't know how to treat them, and then most mold inspectors are like, I'm gonna set up my air sampling.
test right here in the middle of this room that's miles away from any water source and you're fine. And you know, it's more moldy outside and β you're fine. That's not a problem. But you know, so that's that's like gold standard. If you're mildly suspicious, there's a couple other things you can do. There are a couple companies that test the wool.
Chris Hall (33:19)
you
Hehehe. Hehehe.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (33:35)
provide you a test kit called an environmental relative mold index test or ERMI. One company is called Liz Biotech LISBIO.
TCH, no, that's not right. Tech. Anyway, LuzBioTech, and then there's EnviroBiomics, there's Metametrics, and they have a cloth or a vacuum option for assessing, we call it QPCR. And so what it's looking for are different kinds of molds that produce mold toxins or molds that don't. And so you get this report that says, okay, you've got
this many mycotoxin producing molds and then you've got this many non mycotoxin producing molds and you get a total score.
Now that total score is not perfect, but it gives you a rough idea if you're looking at how many bad molds do you have, how high are those levels of bad molds. It gives you an idea. But the sampling is important, right? If you're collecting dust or vacuuming up dust, but you just vacuumed and dusted, you're not gonna get a great sample. β So it's really important to talk to the company and make sure that you know how to collect the specimen.
Chris Hall (34:26)
Hmm.
Mm-hmm.
That's good. I
appreciate that. And I mean, that's something I've been interested in just to know. You know what mean? Just to know if you're walking around. I've had not so much now as in the past, but I had chronic sinusitis, where I was constantly, I was going to doctor every six months and getting antibiotics. And I mean, now I know what a terrible thing that was, too, because antibiotics kill all bacteria. Not just the bad stuff.
So of course my gut biome was probably just complete trash after the two years where every six months I was getting a high dose of antibiotics. So that's another thing too, is that's part of the environment. We take medicines that are actually hurting part of our gut biome or hurting part of our other mitochondria or something like that. I know that can be huge too. So how do you balance that out? In other words, if you have something.
Like knowing what you know, like you know, like, I've got I really do need to give this person antibiotics because they need it. But in the same respect, I mean, I know I'm going to kill their gut biome if I do this. So how do you how do you wrestle with topics like that?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (35:53)
Yes, I appreciate that question and you know it really, again, it really depends. So in that moment if somebody has a sinus infection...
Giving you herbs may not really cut it, right? So we sometimes have to use antibiotics. And then I'm gonna ask why. Why do you keep getting recurrent sinus infections? Do you have allergies? When people have allergies, the body makes more mucus. When you have more mucus, you have more kind of breeding ground for bacteria. That makes sense. So are you eating something that is, you that you're sensitive to?
that's causing more mucus production? Are you in a moldy environment? you can get colonized with molds in your sinuses too. And so you keep getting symptoms and they keep giving you antibiotics, which is only gonna make that situation worse because you're killing all the good bacteria as well as bad bacteria, and you're just self-selecting for more yeast to grow.
So it's really important to work with somebody who knows what they're doing. The other thing I would say too is there are specific companies that have tests. Just like we talked about the QPCR with the mold and identifying which molds are there, there are special kind of tests where you can identify what's actually in your sinuses with a simple nasal swab and treat that. So a lot of my patients who have been mold exposed have chronic sinus issues.
Chris Hall (37:13)
Hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (37:22)
And so we're treating the food sensitivities, the environmental sensitivities, and we're also identifying what are the microbes that are in the sinuses and then really trying my best to use topical antibiotics, right? β So, because then I'm not gonna kill your gut microbiome, but I'm gonna disrupt the bad guys and get rid of them. And if I know exactly what's there and I know exactly what it's sensitive to,
Chris Hall (37:37)
yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (37:50)
can target my treatment protocol and then we can repeat the test and see how we did. And it's been a game changer, right?
Chris Hall (37:57)
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I would say that I think that most doctors don't do that. And I think it's because you had mentioned they get 10 minutes with their patient. They don't have time to do all this extra work. So how did you build your practice to be able to give this level of service? How does that look for you?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (38:18)
Um, it almost built, I feel like it built by itself, but you know, I knew that I needed to help people and I, you know, I came with a couple of assumptions, like the patients are telling the truth. You know, gotta start, gotta start somewhere, right? A lot of providers are like, oh, they're drug seeking. No, they're probably telling you the truth, right? People don't really lie. They want help.
Chris Hall (38:32)
Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (38:43)
So I had to start with that premise. People are coming and telling me the truth. And even if I don't understand it, I have to try and make sense of it and help them make sense of it. And I'm doing two things simultaneously when I'm listening to a new patient. Like what are the symptoms and what tools do I have to help calm those symptoms down, to help resolve those symptoms so they feel better, because that's why they're here. And then simultaneously I'm looking at
Chris Hall (39:07)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (39:10)
what are the root things that I think are going on? You know, if they come in with fatigue and brain fog and...
irritable bowel type symptoms and the sinus symptoms. I'm thinking that they might be in mold, right? So I'm gonna do the things that I need to to identify, are they in mold? Do a urinary mycotoxin test, do that sinus swab that I talked about and kind of see how else, what other things are off for them. And then we try to calm those symptoms down and.
It just kind of built from having those ideas in mind. And then I would learn about, you know, go to a conference, I was a conference junkie. You kind of got to be a conference junkie if you're going to help people, right? So I'd go to conferences and I would learn something else and then I would start to implement that in my practice. And then I'd go to another conference and I'd implement that. And I didn't start out to be the...
Chris Hall (39:51)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (40:04)
the doctor of last resort. But I've sort of become that because I kept going to conferences to try and answer questions that I didn't have the answers to. And I wanted to be able to help as many people as possible. And so I kept going to find more solutions for people and understand deeper and deeper issues that they were having.
Chris Hall (40:07)
Hehehehe
Yeah. I remember when I was a pharmaceutical rep, know, obviously most of the information that you're getting is, you know, maybe your peer group, maybe you're still in a journal club or something like that. Um, you know, not always, but maybe sometimes obviously pharmaceutical reps are a huge resource, but obviously, you know, with a purpose, right. Um, but, but I noticed that when we went to conferences, you know, I would sit in on the, I I'm also a conference person. I just enjoy that stuff very, very much. I'm kind of, I just like to nerd out on stuff. Uh, thus podcast. Um,
Kelly K. McCann, MD (40:53)
Right.
Chris Hall (40:56)
I like to nerd out. So, but
I remember sitting in there and that to me felt like the most real stuff. I mean, some of it obviously corporate sponsored as well, but it was the only time I ever felt like someone stood up and just like literally challenged everybody in the room and said, you're doing this wrong. And let me tell you why. And let me give you the evidence and let me give you the things. And I remember, you know, people talking about things, you know, with cholesterol and, and, and, you know, CRP versus LDL and
I mean, that was like, this is like 20 years ago. And I mean, he was saying you're doing it wrong. And I mean, now it's pretty obvious that, you know, that I mean, not that LDL is not important, but I'm just saying like, it's pretty obvious that it's a multifaceted disease state, and it has got a lot going on it. And you know, yet we still don't, we still really don't test for CRP as a general. I mean, yeah, you've, if you have a good physician, you they maybe they're testing for CRP, but the average person is not doing that. The average person is not
Kelly K. McCann, MD (41:27)
Bye.
Great.
Chris Hall (41:51)
taking their LDL cholesterol, which is supposed to be bad for you, and further breaking that down into which particles of the LDL, because there's good ones and bad ones within the range. Same thing with glucose. Everybody, diabetics, pre-diabetics, way before you're a pre-diabetic, you have insulin sensitivity issues. But we'd never measure insulin. We never measure fasting or free insulin. And I mean, that is like,
Kelly K. McCann, MD (41:59)
Right?
Great.
Chris Hall (42:14)
That will tell you exactly how you're progressing. You can go back. If you could pull blood samples from 10 years before you were pre-diabetic, I bet you could watch your insulin levels rise. But we don't test that.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (42:23)
Absolutely.
We do in functional medicine. Conventional medicine doesn't. We do in functional medicine. Yeah. No?
Chris Hall (42:25)
Okay, fair enough. I'm just saying in general, that's something that like is
not really looked at. And so that's why I feel like the world needs more people like you that are that are willing to take the time and really dig in. And I and I know you said I don't want I didn't want to be the physician of last resort. How cool would it be if it was the norm? You know, I mean,
Kelly K. McCann, MD (42:46)
β absolutely.
It shouldn't be the norm. You're absolutely right, Chris. It boggles my mind. will run, so Quest acquired a company called Cleveland Heart Labs. And I run Cleveland Heart Labs on every single patient. I check their high sensitivity CRP, their homocysteine, their uric acid levels, LP little a, LPPLA2, MPO, like all more letters, like more alphabet, right? I check all of those things on
Chris Hall (42:49)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (43:15)
of my patients.
Chris Hall (43:15)
Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (43:16)
And you can even now check a high sensitivity troponin T. Is there muscle damage on your heart? Right? So you check a troponin T when you show up in the emergency room.
Chris Hall (43:23)
Ooh.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (43:28)
and you have chest pain, that's when they check a troponin T. But you can check a high sensitive troponin T on somebody who's walking around, know, thinking that they're totally fine. And if it's elevated, that's a big red flag that they're having heart muscle damage, right? And I had this happen. Right.
Chris Hall (43:44)
Right? So maybe not a heart attack, but more of a slow
burn, if you will. Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (43:52)
a slow burn, like perhaps
there's some blockage. It's not 100 % blocked, but there's something going on there that really needs to be evaluated. And I remember sending, yeah, I sent a guy back to his cardiologist and like, talk to your cardiologist about this high sensitivity troponin T. And the cardiologist says, are you having chest pain? And ordered a troponin T. And I was like, my God.
Chris Hall (44:00)
They're getting some necrosis in there. Yeah.
Right?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (44:20)
So much work to do to educate these people. This is ridiculous, right?
Chris Hall (44:23)
Right, right.
Well, it's not even that it's the pushback. You know, it's the pushback when someone like yourself who has done the research and knows what they're talking about talks to these people. And, you know, and again, I'm sure some people are like, hey, thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'm glad I'll do better. You know, I'll make sure I treat XYZ. You know, but but I feel like anytime I've ever spoke, you know, as a pharmaceutical rep, you know, I figured I was pretty good at delving into the science and
Kelly K. McCann, MD (44:28)
Yeah.
Chris Hall (44:51)
I call it a BS meter. I could basically look at the study that someone showed me, like this is BS. Because just so you know, if you're out there listening, almost all studies are built to win. So they have actuaries and people who sit there and run all the numbers. And they say, if we set this trial up just exactly like this, it should win. So you should always take notice when a study loses, because it was made to win.
Anyway, when I would bring stuff to people's attention where I was like, hey, this study failed and blah, blah, or I'd say, hey, over here, you've got this thing. A lot of times it would be like, yeah, but that's not general knowledge. So if it's not general knowledge, it's not right. It's like, that's what medicine is. We're learning. kind of taught why they call it a practice, right? Right.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (45:27)
What? β
Right, right, we should pay attention to the outliers and
the things that don't add up and utilize them. Yeah, I mean there are so many things that I just, I'm in awe about that conventional medicine is just not picking up on. And fortunately, I think patients are recognizing that a pill for every ill is not the way to go anymore.
Chris Hall (45:51)
Mm-hmm.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (45:59)
for, you know, and that they want different choices. They don't wanna just take a pill. They wanna understand why. And I'm so grateful for those patients who are willing to advocate for themselves, to advocate for their families, and to look for different choices, because there's a lot of different choices out there.
Chris Hall (46:20)
So
for those people that you're mentioning, β me being probably one of those people, what's a great way to get a baseline? In other words, obviously you're in Costa Mesa. Do you do virtual medicine?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (46:31)
I do to a point. So I have licenses in 11 other states. So if you happen to be in a state where I am also licensed, we do at this point ask patients to come into California. So you're established as a California patient that makes things a lot.
legally better. You know, all that. And then if I'm licensed in that state, we can do telehealth and I have people come in annually to see me in person to maintain that relationship. I don't yet have a online program. But if that was the case, I'm in
starting in January, I'm not going to be able to be somebody's doctor. I'm not going to be able to order labs. you know, there's a... Are you familiar with Dr. Mark Hyman? Okay. Yeah. So Dr. Hyman was a...
Chris Hall (47:17)
Yeah, yeah, no, I actually know who that is. Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (47:23)
a vanguard in the functional medicine space and he had the vision to start a blood testing company called Function Health where people can purchase a test of a lot of these markers that you and I were talking about, Chris, for like 500 bucks. And then you can get your blood test done every six months or annually to track these numbers if you can't get your provider to order them for you or if you're happy
to be in a medical system like Kaiser where they will, I know we're in HMO where they won't order anything but...
a lipid panel every couple of years and a CBC and a metabolic panel. But you can get your fasting insulin levels and you can get your hemoglobin A1C and you can get homocysteine and high sensitivity C-reactive protein and find out where you are on the spectrum. And then there are more more functional and naturopathic providers who can help you understand those blood tests because they don't really have the capacity at Function Health yet to explain everything to you.
Chris Hall (48:26)
I could be wrong, but I also believe that they have like a monthly subscription. like, because people hear $500 and they go, forget it, you know, that's a lot of money. Although after COVID with all the inflation that we've seen, I don't think $500 sounds like as much as it did like five years ago. But so I think they do like a 50 bucks a month. I think they do some
Kelly K. McCann, MD (48:41)
No, and yeah, and if you can't get it any other way, I don't
know how that is set up. So yeah.
Chris Hall (48:48)
Yeah, I'll
look into it and I'll link to it in the description just so people can check it out for themselves because I really do feel like, you know, it's not a matter of your physician doesn't want to help you. I definitely feel like your physician wants to help you. just feel like Dr. McCann said it perfectly in the very beginning, which is they just don't have time. They have 10 minutes. And if you don't know, and I know Dr. McCann knows, the amount of paperwork that you have to put in
after you see a patient to get reimbursed by Medi-Cal, Medicare, Blue Cross, those people, it's phenomenal. Like there literally should be two people in the room with you, one person to talk to you and treat you and one person to scribe all this stuff. And I know that some clinics do have that now. They actually literally have a scribe who just stands next to them and puts all the notes in because it's such a waste of the physician's time to put all these notes in. But you will not get reimbursed if you do not do it. So.
So it's a necessary evil. So that's why I think the function health and Dr. McCann, these are necessary things that we have to have and it has to proliferate, which is one of the reasons I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk to my audience is because I think people just need to know this exists.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (49:54)
Great, yeah. I'm so happy for the invitation, Chris. It's been really wonderful talking with you and sharing with your audience.
Chris Hall (50:02)
Thank you. And thank you
so much for your time. Is there anything that we didn't talk about that you want to touch on?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (50:07)
β You know, it's along those lines.
it's really important to recognize that you are the most important person in your healthcare team, right? And you can ask for what you need and ask for what you want and expect that you're going to either get it or you can find somebody else because there are more and more functional medicine providers, naturopathic physicians, depending upon where you live, integrative medicine practitioners who can help and side with you and potentially
partner with your your primary care team it may may be possible they may be consultants but there's a way through and you know as long as you know that you have that power the power of your dollar the power of your choice and you know and to really use your intuition if you know that something isn't really serving you honor that that's really important I think that that
you know, kind of spirit, intuition, peace gets missed. And that's so important. You know what's best for your body. And if something doesn't feel right to you, really honor that, really investigate that. You know, a lot of my patients come in and they're asking, should I have this surgery? Should I do this? Should I take this medication? And I will often put it back on them and say, okay, well, what do you think? What do you feel? How does it sit with you?
And then they usually tell me, no, don't think that I want to do that. There's your answer. You didn't need to ask me. You just needed to listen a little harder.
Chris Hall (51:34)
All All right.
I think that's such a great way of just sort of the take home messages that you, as we as individuals need to take charge of our health. And I feel like, you know, we are at this, this crossroads where, you know, in the past it's always been like, well, my doctor said, my doctor said, my doctor said, well, there's a wealth of information out there right now that your doctor probably doesn't have access to only because they don't have the time to find it.
So just you taking charge of your health, not necessarily contradicting your doctor, but like partnering with them. So like when I do my, I'm a financial advisor by trade. And so one of the things I always say to people is I want to partner with you on your financial goals. Like I'm not going to do them for you. And I certainly don't want you to do it by yourself, but I do want them to feel like we're doing this together. And I feel that it'd be the same way in medicine. It hasn't been, but it should be, is that we need to partner together. So you as a patient need to like take better charge.
of your healthcare. I think we live in a generation now where you can do that.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (52:34)
Absolutely, you can talk to chat about it. You can talk to Claude or β all the AIs and ask questions. then really educate yourself. The patients who get better, the patients who thrive are the ones who are like, okay, I'm gonna listen to podcasts. I'm gonna read books. I'm going to do my own research and then bring that to your provider. And if your provider feels, if they are not receptive,
Chris Hall (52:37)
Yeah, right. Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (52:59)
You know, they're threatened. I'm always learning from my patients. I don't know everything. I can't know everything, right? And I've been doing this long enough that I feel very confident when I don't know something and it's okay to say, hey, you know what, I don't know. Let's see if we can answer this question or I think you need to talk to this person.
Chris Hall (53:01)
Yeah.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (53:20)
It's okay for you not to know and for your provider not to know. And then you figure it out together or you find another provider.
Chris Hall (53:26)
Right, and
I think that's that's another thing that people think that well, there's no doctors taking patients in my town Okay, that's fine you if you live in, California You don't have to see somebody in your town like you don't have to go in anymore You can find somebody who does virtual health. So speaking with I do want to circle back to that So how does someone contact you? What's the best and easiest way to get a hold of you?
Kelly K. McCann, MD (53:47)
best way is through my website it's thespringcenter.com and yes there's the brick and mortar practice in California. I also have a personal website which is linked to thespringcenter.com where there's more blogs and webinars that people can and links to all my podcasts so you can check my information out there or follow me on at dr. Kelly McCann on Instagram.
Chris Hall (54:12)
And if
people are interested in becoming a patient, they can go to that website and they can like, you know, I think there was a button on it, I saw it said become a patient. So, right, they just.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (54:20)
Yes, yeah. Right now we're paused for new patients. We were switching over our electron medical records and so we'll be opening to new patients soon. So get on the preferred wait list for being a patient in January.
Chris Hall (54:27)
fun.
That's great.
Thank you so much for being on the show. I enjoyed this so much. I actually feel like we could do this for another hour and a half. so I mean, I have so many notes here that I'm like, I didn't cover that and I didn't cover that and I didn't cover that. So I guess we'll just, β we'll have to just have you back on. All right. Thank you, Dr. McCann. I appreciate your time. All right. Thank you. Thank you all for listening. once again, if you guys enjoy the show, please like comment, share. Those are all signals that you send.
Kelly K. McCann, MD (54:42)
I know.
Sounds great, I'd love to, Chris. You're welcome.
Chris Hall (55:03)
to the algorithms that say we like what Chris is doing and we want more of it. So then they'll show it to more people and then we can grow. And it's all just beautiful stuff. please, if you enjoy it, please just drop a comment or hit a like button or something like that. It's not too hard. It takes a couple seconds. So thank you all for your time. Have a great day.