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Unashamed Unafraid is a show dedicated to being unashamed about sexual addiction recovery and unafraid of coming unto Christ for healing. Pornography and sexual addiction are not something you are stuck with to manage your whole life. We share real stories of recovery, the best resources, information from experts, and answer anonymous questions with those who know. All to help you on the path of being 100% healed from pornography and sexual addiction.
Speaker 2: it was like the light just
burst the shackles that had been around
my heart, and it was radiating through
my whole body, filling the whole room.
I was just like, "I am on fire
with light right now because of
this breakthrough, this truth."
Speaker 17: Tryna walk the walk.
Truth on the mic, no shame
here, just real talk.
Came from the outside, never fit in.
Now we tell the story
and the healing begins.
No front, no mask, just telling the truth.
Keep it real, keep it raw,
speaking straight from the booth.
If you feeling like an
outsider, this one's for you.
Uh.
Yeah
. Speaker: Welcome to another episode of
Unashamed Unafraid, a show unashamed about
sexual addiction recovery, and unafraid
of coming unto Christ for healing.
Instead of checking in today, I just
wanna share with you guys something
I learned about Jesus recently.
It-
Speaker 3: I know that guy.
Love that
Speaker: guy.
Josh, Josh knows Jesus.
Oh, by the way, Josh is co-hosting
with me today, uh, first time
he's officially co-hosted, uh,
outside of Live Unashamed episodes.
So, thanks for being on
with me today, brother.
Uh, it'll be fun.
Speaker 3: Glad to be here.
Speaker: James is, , famous for saying,
"If the only thing you ever accomplish
in your life is to learn the true nature
of God, you've fulfilled your purpose."
Wow.
He said, he said that
in some way or another.
, I'm sure it's a misquote, butâ¦
Speaker 3: Yours is probably better.
That
Speaker: sounds like
Speaker 3: a James
Speaker: thing to say.
But James clued me into that, and
I just realized, you know what?
We ought to talk more about Jesus.
We are unashamed about coming unto Christ
for healing on this show, are we not?
So I was listening to the Sean
Ryan podcast the other day,
who's, uh, I really like him.
He and, he had a pastor.
I can't remember the pastor's name.
I've seen him on a lot
of, Instagram reels.
But Sean asked him, he says, like,
"Hey, so I don't understand it.
Why-
Speaker 3: Why did Jesus
Speaker: have to die on the cross?
"Why did Jesus have to die on the cross?"
Oh.
You know this one.
Speaker 3: It's so
Sam: good.
Yeah, it's a viral video.
I'm sure there's a lot of people out
there listening who have seen this.
But if you haven't, if you haven't
heard this, I, I, I wrote it down
'cause wanna tell the story he told.
It really touched me and, and it,
it just made me feel like, wow,
Jesus must really love us
. So here you go.
Why did Jesus have to die on the cross?
He's God's son.
He's God's only son.
He is God.
Why couldn't he just forgive?
And this is the response.
tells a story that goes like this.
Once upon a time in a far-off kingdom,
there was a king who was known by
everyone in the kingdom to be the most
just and loving king who had ever lived.
But then it was discovered that
somebody was stealing from the king's
treasury, and so the king, being a
just king, he sent out an edict that
whenever it was discovered who was
stealing from the king's treasury, that
the person would receive ten lashes.
Well, the theft continued, and he
issued another decree when it's
discovered who's stealing from the
king's treasury, it'll be 20 lashes.
Theft continued, 30 lashes.
Until finally, the king issued a final
decree, and he said, "When it's discovered
who's stealing from the king's treasury,
it will be a sentence of 40 lashes."
40 lashes is a death sentence.
but The theft continued until eventually
it was discovered that none other
than the king's daughter was the one
who was stealing from the treasury.
So then a question began to
ripple through the kingdom.
What will the king do?
Some thought he would forgive her,
but then how would he be just?
Some thought that he would issue the
sentence, but then how would he be loving?
But, said the king, the sentence
is just and the punishment must
fall, so the decree stands."
And so one day, the entire kingdom was
gathered, and in front of everyone, the
king's own daughter was marched up to
the podium and the back of her shirt
was ripped open, and the executioner
stood there, and he began to raise
his whip to land the first lash.
And as soon as he did,
the king yelled, "Stop!"
There was a silence that fell, the
king strode forward, and he took off
his own shirt, and he bent over, and he
wrapped his body around his own daughter.
And he looked back up over his
shoulder, and he said, "Now hit her."
The executioner objected, "But King,
those lashes, they'll fall on you."
The king said, "The sentence must stand."
And so 40 lashes fell on the body
of the king that protected the
body of his daughter, and the king
died in the stead of his daughter.
And what happened in that story is that
the king was both just because of payment
for the sin that had to be made, and the
king was the justifier of the ungodly.
Speaker: She went free
because he took the penalty.
The reason Jesus had to die on the
cross is because God is just, and
so payment for sin has to be made."
So the beautiful thing about that
is that you don't have a choice
whether or not Jesus loves you.
You don't have a choice whether
he loves you enough to take the
penalty of your brokenness because
he already took the stripes.
You could run and gun your whole
life in rebellion to God, in complete
opposition of his plan and the eternal
identity that he instilled inside of
you, and he would never stop chasing.
In the words of Ben Fuller, "His
love would chase you down until
you had nowhere to turn but Jesus."
And he does this so that someday
when all of us come, come to
ourselves like the prodigal son,
that we will have the courage to
start the long journey back home.
So if you're afraid that God is interested
in punishing you for the sins you have
made, remember that whether you choose
to believe it or not, you are his child.
And for his own child, there is no
price he would not pay to ensure that
you can have the life he hopes for you
Just wanted to share that with you guys.
I envisioned a very
punishing God when I grew up.
That's all I knew.
But it's different now,
and I'm grateful for that.
So on that thread, um,
guys, thanks for being here.
So it's rare, it's rare that
we have a guest on twice.
I think it's probably the only
sec- time, the s- the second time
that we've done this, uh, besides
people inside the organization.
Um, but, uh, let's introduce our
guest for today, uh, Michael.
They'll know you as, as Michael
because we posted it as, Mike's story.
Why don't you go ahead and introduce
yourself and then, for anyone who
doesn't remember your episode, I
believe it was episode two twenty-two.
Give us a two-minute, version of your
story and kinda guide us in today.
Speaker 2: Cool.
All right.
By way of introduction, I said this
last time I remember I'm, I'm a son
of God, and I'm also in the role right
now of husband, father, and retreat
facilitator, and brother, and a whole
bunch of other things I could list off.
But I've gotten into the work of, , I
guess, wellness and recovery and healing,
and not specific just to pornography
or sex addition, a- addiction, but
just broadly speaking, anything that
we are turning to as a crutch or as
a substitute for real and authentic
connection and identity and awareness
of, of who we really are and, and
what our journey is on this earth,
what our, purpose is on this earth.
And there's a whole story of how I
got into doing all that work, but
it's, I've been doing it for the
last five or five years or so, and,
it's been the most fulfilling and
amazing shift in, in my career by far.
You know, it only rivals things
like getting married and having
kids and all of those things.
So it's like that's comes right after.
But prior to that, I had a career in
graphic design and branding and worked
in New York City for many years, in
San Francisco for several years, and
came back to Utah a few years back.
And so just to give a quick recap of
what I talked about in the last episode,
I mean, I talked about, um, my own
journey, my struggle with, you know,
early exposure to pornography as, , you
know, maybe a 9 or 10-year-old, and
then that, how, how that kinda grew and
compounded and became something bigger.
And I look back at why was
it so compelling to me?
And I think, in, in some of my own work,
I've uncovered several reasons why that
h- had, had such a draw or an appeal.
And, uh, in one instance, it was around,
my parents divorcing when I was about
two years old, and so there was kind
of an abandonment, with that and a lack
of a masculine presence in the home.
Hmm.
And that absence, I think, can really
do a number on, a, a little boy.
I talked through the, the journey
of how that kind of, compounded
and became, a bigger problem.
And it all kind of came to a head when I
was, uh, engaged to get married and spoke
with one bishop in one, location and,
he felt like I was okay to, you know,
i- in my repentance process, I was okay
to, like, go and get married and keep my
temple recommend and have that wedding.
And then two weeks before our actual
wedding, my wife and I, or fiance at
the time, we moved to a different ward
and had a, a new bishop and that bishop
wanted to meet with me and talk to him,
and he had a different perspective on my
worthiness to be able to, get married.
And so w- I talked about that
in the, in the last episode.
I won't retell the whole story, but
basically, like, we canceled our
wedding because I wasn't deemed worthy.
And that was, uh, that was, like, a
big rock my world, you know, moment.
And the moment of disclosure to
m- I, I hadn't talked to anybody
about this, aside from bishops,
you know, leading up to that.
And so, you know, it comes out to my
family, to my fiance, to her family,
like- Ugh ⦠I mean- Gosh ⦠uh,
it was, it was like a, yeah, a bomb,
you know, just blew up in my life.
And, uh, beautifully, things worked
out the way that they did, and my,
uh, fiance, uh, decided she wanted to
stay, still stay in a relationship,
and we got, we got married, you know,
some matter of months after that.
It was a powerful experience because
we had to face some hard stuff
early on in our relationship that
then kinda set this foundation
for the rest of our relationship.
You know, going into marriage after
that, it was like we knew we could get
through anything after going through that.
Sam (2): You know, I'm glad you say that,
Mike, because, me and my wife have been
through some really hard things Mm-hmm.
We've been married, like, eight, nine
months now, And I've just wondered, why?
. Yeah.
Especially early on.
Yeah.
In some ways, that almost is like
a catalyst that pushes you, it, it
gives you a foundation to become who
you are and influence others- Sure
and, and stuff like that.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: I had a, I had, like, a, a
life-shattering moment like that early
on in my marriage, where I, I, when
everyone started finding out about it.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker 3: The it
Speaker: meaning?
Speaker 3: Well, it's, this is, this,
that specific thing is not my thing to
share- Okay ⦠so I'm not going to.
But when it happened, it was, uh,
it was devastating, and it seemed
like everything was falling apart.
And then I heard some advice
from my sister's mother-in-law.
When she heard what happened, she said,
"Wow, they have an opportunity here
to be closer than they've ever been
Speaker 2: before."
Ooh, wow.
Speaker 3: And I was like-
Speaker: That's wisdom
⦠Speaker 3: what?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And she was right.
Speaker 2: That's so cool.
Yeah, I love it.
So that's kind of the recap.
Uh, I've- we're, we're now married
over 20 years, and we have five amazing
kids, and, uh, and life has had its
twists and turns and ups and downs,
but we have that foundation that we,
that we, uh, laid at the beginning of
our relationship, we've continued to
come back to that, which is we choose
each other, and we choose to come back
to God, whatever it is that comes up.
And that has gotten us through everything
that we've been through the last,
you know, couple decades together.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 3: That's beautiful.
Speaker: So, Mike, often in the course
of, and I've had a lot of guests tell
me this, in the course of telling
a story, uh, a person will find as
they listen on, later on, "Oh, man,
I wish I would've said that thing."
Yeah.
"Oh, man, I wish I
would've said this thing.
Oh, I left that important detail out."
Yeah.
Is there anything that you feel like,
"Man, I, I wish I would've added this
because it would've given some more
flavor and perspective to the story
I told to help the viewer understand
what it really looks like to heal"?
Speaker 2: Yes, 100%.
Thank you for that opportunity because
I did have that experience- ⦠and
I was like, "How did I not
tell that part of it," right?
So I will go back, for those who listened,
, I was talking about learning some really
important things about the true meaning,
uh, and definition of repentance.
The metanoeo, the Greek word- Yeah
that means a change of heart, mind,
knowledge, spirit, breath, and that line
that just so stood out to me, a fresh
view of oneself, of God, and of the world.
So when we repent, we gain a new, fresh
perspective, view of who we really
are- Mm ⦠our relationship with
God, his relationship and his view
of us, and our perspective of just
world, of the world, of existence,
of life, of nature, of creation.
That is all in repentance, which
I had such a limited view of
what I thought repentance was-
Mm-hmm ⦠back in the day.
Because, I mean, I, uh, one of these
mentors I talked about in New York, he, he
pointed out that even the etymology of the
word repentance came from this Greek, or
this Latin word that was like poenitere or
something like that, but it's, it means,
like, punishment or, like, punitive.
Mm.
You know?
It was, like, the opposite of, you
know, the, the pain and the, a- and the
suffering that comes from sin is not to be
confused with repentance, and it often is.
Yeah.
Those two are conflated, right?
It's, it's the falling
away that causes the pain.
It's not the repentance
that causes the pain.
The repentance is, like, the
relief and the healing - Yeah
from the pain.
But I used to think that repentance
equaled the painful process, right?
Yeah.
, I wanted to avoid that, I wanted to
not have to need repentance a lot of
my life because I thought, "Oh, that's,
that's the painful way of, like, shame,
and I don't wanna have to go there.
I just wanna be in obedience and
not have to go to repentance."
You, is this ringing a
Sam: bell?
Well, that's what theâ¦
Yeah, and that's the
beauty of God's plan is.
i'm glad I told that story at the
beginning now- Yeah ⦠because
God takes the punishment.
That's what repentance is about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3: There's a guy, there's
a podcaster near- He's a Christian
podcaster named George Janko, and he
explained it in a way that I love,
where he's like, "It's like taking
It's like cleaning, trying to clean
yourself before you take a shower."
It doesn't make any sense.
Yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah.
Speaker 3: You wanna repent?
Use Jesus.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Mm.
That's what he's there for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's
Speaker 3: the whole purpose.
Don't wait.
You can't fix it first and then repent.
Right, right.
It doesn't work like that.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Speaker 3: We all ⦠I don't know what
it is, but our generation, we grew up in
a day where we, we did not understand it.
Speaker: Yeah.
Oh, Satan, I think Satan pulls
every generation towards one
or the other of the extremes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, in any way he can, so
we're just, we're ⦠That tends
to be our, our folly, I think.
Speaker 2: Okay, so there's the context
for this experience, because I was
learning a bunch of these things,
um, but to have an experience with
it that was really tangible and, and
embodied and powerful, like, tha-
that's what I got to have in New York.
I had this, um ⦠My wife had a friend
who was sort of a spiritual mentor
to us, and she wasn't technically
a therapist, and I think even in
the last episode, you, Chris maybe
asked, like, "Okay, so what'd you do?
Did you go see a therapist?
Did you go see ⦠" And I was like, "No."
And then I'm like, "Wait, kind of."
'Cause I, I did have a, a guided
experience with this woman who
just has some spiritual gifts.
It's like as, as simply as I can put
it, and she's had a lot of training
and learned a lot of different things,
but she's just not technically, like,
a therapist that works at a clinic,
and, you know, it was just not a
typical or traditional setup, right?
Speaker 3: You don't have to be
a therapist to know how to heal.
Speaker 2: Right.
Exactly.
And I had had early in, you know, when all
of this sort of blew up and came to light,
I went and saw, like, a counselor, and I
think that's where my head was at a little
bit when he asked the question, 'cause
that's where we were in the narrative.
And unfortunately, it just, it, it
wasn't about getting to the root cause.
It was sort of about, oh,
how do we manage a behavior?
And so it w- it was, you know,
marginally helpful to, to meet with
that type of a counselor, but it
didn't really get to, like, what
is, what is this, uh, compulsion?
What is the cause of it?
Uh, so it was more about how do we
manage, like, oh, w- well, maybe you
could go for a walk if you feel whatever.
And I'm like, that just
didn't feel sufficient.
Mm-hmm.
It didn't feel like it w- It,
it felt like the Band-Aid.
It wasn't getting to, like,
the, the heart of the matter.
Yeah.
Right?
It's like, oh, can you distract
yourself in another way?
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker 2: That's what-
Sure ⦠it felt like to me, right?
Yeah.
I'm like, that's not really getting
to, like, what is the wound a-
and, and why ⦠what is the need
that- Porn is fulfilling right now
Speaker 3: Totally The driving force
Speaker 2: Yes.
Like, what's that need?
Like, I j- we just didn't get there.
Um- Yeah ⦠so fast-forward, we're now,
this is now when I'm living in, in New
York, and I'm learning about these things,
and then along comes this, guide, and she
said, " "Hey, do you wanna do a session?"
Like, she does these things called
sessions, and she, integrates
all of these, skills that she's
learned of how to just work with
people and help them go through the
process of metanoia, essentially.
Mm.
Which was the process of identifying
what is the lie or the false identity
or the shame-based identity that I am
believing about myself, and how can we
identify that, feel the feels that need
to be felt around it, because that's
sometimes a step that, we wanna bypass.
We wanna just jump from, the lie to the
truth, but bypass the, the grief that
needs to be felt- Yeah ⦠uh, the emotion
that needs to be expressed in that.
Speaker: Steve calls it
the spiritual bypass.
The spiritual bypass.
You, you're right
Speaker 2: on.
Okay, there you have it.
I mean-
Speaker: Try harder gospel.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So she basically came over to our
house, and my wife was there in the
room with us, and we had agreed to,
like, do this session thing, and I was
just kinda open and curious about it.
And I think she had a, a perception of
me that was like, "Hey, this, this guy
feels like he's ready to do some of
this work and to go a little deeper."
And, and man, was I, I was ready, and I
didn't even know what I was ready for.
But we got into a process where I
was just lying down, and she started
by just g- kind of doing some gentle
movement, like somatic movement.
She took my shoulders and just kinda
was shaking them back and forth And it's
just, you know, we set the tone of this
experience, and she just said, "And just
notice what starts to come up for you."
It was such an interesting introduction
into something like this, right?
Yeah.
But as I'm just getting, like, pushed
back and forth, the thing that comes
up for me was I feel like I'm being
pushed around, obviously, right?
Right.
But there was something deeper about
that cause somebody might have
said, like, "Oh, this is really
soothing, and, I'm being rocked- Mm
like a baby or something," right?
For me, it was agitating, and I was like,
"I feel like I'm getting pushed around."
And she's like, "Who do you
feel like pushed you around?"
And just immediately, people, started
to come to mind from way back.
And it didn't take very long to get to,
like, some of these core beliefs, of
why I was feeling that reaction, right?
Yeah.
It's like we just telegraph what is going
on in our subconscious mind all the time
without even- Hmm ⦠fully realizing it.
And so I started to go on this journey
of looking at the past and, and feeling
like, wow, I feel pretty powerless,
and oh, I've always felt powerless.
I was the youngest sibling in a family.
Uh, I lost myâ¦
Well, didn't lose.
My, my dad left my mom when I
was, you know, two years old.
I didn't have that masculine
presence, uh, for many years.
I had really strong, uh, personalities of
older siblings in the home that were, you
know, loud and, uh, and I just felt like I
don't have a voice, and I feel powerless.
And so we, we got there, which
was really interesting, and
then, uh, we just continued to
keep digging into things, right?
And the place where the emotion
really came up was it wasn'tâ¦
Actually, the core of that
experience wasn't around
powerlessness or not having a voice.
What it came down to was my own
sense of worth and feeling worthless.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker 2: Someone who doesn't have a
voice, we believe that our voice doesn't
matter, and if I believe my voice doesn't
matter, it's because it's worthless.
Hmm.
So it got down to this core belief
of I feel like I'm worthless.
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker 2: And when she
challenged me if thatâ¦
She's like, "Is that actually true?
Is it true that you're worthless?"
What immediately came to mind was all
of my unworthy actions and behaviors-
Speaker 3: Hmm
⦠Speaker 2: that proved that I'm worthless.
So I had all this stack
of evidence, right?
I'm likeâ¦
She's like, "Is it true?"
And I'm like Yeah.
Yeah, I'm worthless because of all of my
struggles and all of my mistakes and all
of my flaws and, you know, so I just had
this, like, the, the voice of the accuser
was, like, speaking through me, right?
And she identified that
Speaker: That's a good way to say it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right.
Yeah.
She identified it, and she was like,
"What you're saying right now is not you.
That is the adversary.
That is what the adversary wants you
to believe, and he is the accuser,
and he is the father of all lies."
So anytime I'm feeling self-accusation or
external accusation within my head, right,
and it's telling me lies, I can identify
what the source of that is, right?
Speaker: That's amazing.
Speaker 2: So she was
like, "Cast that out."
And, and I was just like, "What, whatâ¦
Like, o-okay."
She's like, "No, really.
Like-" In our religious tradition,
we're, we're taught how to raise
our arm to the square and cast out
the influence of the adversary.
And we're mo- it's modeled to us
in the temple, and we can learn
about this in other sources, too.
And so I was like, "Okay,
I'm gonna cast this out."
And so I raised my arm to the square,
and I cast out that voice of the accuser.
Speaker 3: Were you still
wiggling around on the floor?
Speaker 2: No, we were
done with that- Okay.
⦠at this point.
Yeah.
I
Speaker 3: was just trying
Speaker 2: to picture- I was
not being shaken anymore.
That had stopped.
I was just laying there 'cause
we had gotten somewhere, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
We had tapped into something.
So it was just very ⦠a lot of
stillness in this, and just verbalizing
things, and waves of emotion are
starting to come up 'cause we're
getting to the heart of things.
Mm-hmm.
And when I felt that worthlessness, there
was a grief in that, and I was crying,
you know, as I'm, like, expressing these
things and as I'm trying to prove to
myself why I'm right that I believe that
I'm worthless because I had believed
that for years and years and years.
Mm-hmm.
And so I do this act of, of casting
out that influence, and something
shifted in the room and in my heart.
That is fascinating.
Like, I, I felt a shift.
I was like, "There's something different
now in the air at a spiritual level."
And then she asked me again, "Okay,
if, if it's, uh, is it true that you
are worthless in the eyes of God?"
And I'm like, "Of course not."
I'm like, "No."
But this was a breakthrough moment.
Yeah.
Like, it, it ⦠I'm actually,
like, I'm feeling it a little bit-
Yeah ⦠as I'm, like, retelling this.
It was powerful and hard for me to
say that- Yeah ⦠because it was this
light piercing through the darkness.
Yeah.
And I was so used to
being in that darkness.
Like, it was comfortable.
It was familiar.
And our poor little ⦠I, I mean, our
amazing brains that are also a little
bit ⦠They struggle in a lot of ways.
They are-
Speaker 3: Super mortal and flawed.
Speaker 2: They're super mortal-
Yeah ⦠and they're amazing and powerful,
and they're really, like, flawed.
Yes.
Uh, and-
Speaker 3: Easily wired the wrong way.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And, and they are more comfortable
believing a lie because it's familiar
rather than experience a transition- Yeah
⦠and accepting and believing truth.
Yeah.
'Cause we want what's familiar
'cause it's predictable, because
we know we'll survive, because
.. that's the pattern we've lived
by- Mm-hmm ⦠our whole lives.
So we resist something that challenges
our pattern even if it's good for us.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Isn't that crazy?
Like, we do.
Yeah.
Like, I f- and I felt
that in that experience.
I felt that, like, resistance to truth.
But then after that casting out and
then addressing it again, "Is it true?"
I'm like, "Of course it's not true."
I am of infinite worth.
And I arrived at that truth in a
way that felt like, it felt like
the light in my heart just broke out
of a, of a, like, a, a black ball
or something, or, like, container.
It was, it was like the light just
burst the shackles that had been around
my heart, and it was radiating out of
my heart, through my whole body, out
of my body, filling the whole room.
I was just like, "I am on fire
with light right now because of
this breakthrough, this truth."
It was, like, a, a felt experience.
Wow.
It was incredible.
And I just wept and wept at this truth.
Like, I am of infinite worth.
Even though I messed up, that doesn't
diminish my worth in the eyes of
God, and that is what I needed.
So it was, it was, like, just manna toâ¦
I mean, it w- it was, it was a balm
to my soul, and I felt like I was
luminous because of that truth,
like, landing right here in my heart.
Speaker 3: Dude.
Thank you for sharing that with us.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
It was transformational.
Wow.
Speaker 3: You know, people,
uh, I, I'm one of them, words of
affirmation have been so stupid
to me, just the dumbest- Yeah
idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And the reason is
'cause you don't believe the words.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Speaker 3: But I did have
other words I believed.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: They were the lies.
Speaker 2: The accusations.
Speaker 3: And the one thing that
got me to believe the truth was
when God told me what I was worth.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: You can't not
believe it when God tells you.
When that black ball around your
heart shatters, and the light
just erupts, there's no denying.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah So that was one pivotal experience.
Like, like in the realm of experiential,
not just knowledge, uh, like a depth of
knowledge that comes through experience.
And that, that was a turning point for me
spiritually, uh, in my, in my recovery.
And that was, I don't know,
probably 15 years ago.
And it planted the seeds of much
of, uh, the work that I do now.
I mean, ev- so much of what I learned
through that is continued to be, uh,
reinforced and experienced for myself
at different layers and levels, right?
I continue to do this kind of work,
and then for sharing it with others.
And then when I learned about, um,
psychodrama, I was like, "Oh my gosh, we
are doing this, the same process I went
through just in a different way," right?
Mm-hmm.
Breathwork.
Oh my gosh, I'm having a same
kind of experience that I had with
that first one, but in a different
way, like a different tool.
These are all tools that are
available to us for our own healing
and connection with God, and getting
more and more into light and truth.
'Cause that's what it came
down to me, was there was light
in it, and there was truth.
And when I think of, like what
are the opposites of light and
truth, it's darkness and deception.
And when you look at all the wisdom
traditions, well, most of them, I
don't know if I can say all of them.
You look at the wisdom traditions and you
say, "What is the source of suffering?"
'Cause I did this research
a little while ago.
I was curious.
I'm like, "What is the source of
suffering according to like Buddhism
or Hinduism or whatever," right?
Like, it, it comes back to ignorance
and deception, self-deception
or any kind of deception.
Those are the sources of suffering.
And then when I look at the
opposites of light and truth, I'm
like, "Oh, it's the same thing."
Darkness is ignorance, and
deceit, deception is that, right?
It's the s- those are exactly synonymous.
Wow.
And I'm like, "Okay, there's, there's
a pattern here that is important."
Like, this is significant.
I love when you see these,
resonant concepts across different
traditions, 'cause I'm like, "Oh,
there's something really meaty
there and, like, significant there."
Speaker 3: And people are receiving
witnesses in a completely different
circle of influence than you are.
Yes.
It's like, "Oh, that's God."
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It
Speaker 2: has to be.
Like, truth resonates, right?
Yeah.
Regardless of where it showed up
in history or in cultural context-
Yeah ⦠or whatever, right?
So to me, we have the source of
suffering being darkness and deception.
By the way, we already talked about
the accuser and the father of lies.
And then we get into light and
truth, which are the opposites
of darkness and deception.
And so what does light do?
It reveals, it illuminates,
it shows us what's here.
And I think light, uh, it actually shows
us our wounds and our weakness, too.
It's not, like, separate
from those things.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3: Shows it,
illuminates the truth.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly.
And if we're walking through a room
stumbling around in the dark- in the
darkness and there's no light, we're,
we're gonna hurt ourselves, right?
And I feel like we do that
subconsciously all the time.
We're fumbling around in the darkness
in our own psyches, and we're tempted by
something, we're triggered by something,
and we're fumbling around in the dark,
and we go, "Oh, this is what's gonna
help me feel better," because I just
don't s- you don't see what's there.
Like, there's not an awareness.
And awareness is a huge principle in, you
know, meditation and in other traditions.
It's like we only progress to
the level of our own awareness.
Mm.
Or, or a deeper consciousness is another
way that they, th- they describe that.
To me, it's just, it's light.
It's like what, what canâ¦
Am I able to see?
And with the ability to see, I can
then comprehend, and then I can
navigate even through my own stuff.
Like, if there's light in the space
that I'm in of, of my subconscious
mind, it doesn't mean that the hard
things or the pain just vanish.
It just means I can see them.
I see what's here, and I
know why it's there now.
And with that increased awareness,
I have increased agency, and
that's a powerful principle.
Mm.
The more I'm aware of,
the more I can choose.
Mm.
And then I'm not f- stumbling
through the dark and kicking my shins
against the tables all the time.
I'm going, "Oh, I see the table's here.
How am I gonna navigate this table?"
Right?
I don't have to bump
into it over and over.
Yep.
I can see it's here, and I can go, "Oh
yeah, that's, that's what that is."
And in meditation, one of the outcomes of,
of a meditation practice is you increase
the gap between stimulus and response.
Uh, and it comes with increased
awareness or deeper consciousness.
So stimulus, "Oh man, that really
triggered me," or, "Oh, that
just touched one of my wounds."
And what's my response?
Am I gonna react and shut down, close my
heart, and then look for a way to cope
or self-medicate, whether through porn
or any other addictive kind of thing?
Or am I gonna say, "Oh, that hurt.
I can see why, and I'm gonna actually
just allow it to be, and then
I'm gonna choose how I respond."
Is it exposing a need in me
that I can now go and choose
to fulfill rather than react?
But I feel like we have to have that
light, that illumination of knowing
what it was and why it's there in
order to respond rather than react.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Is that all tracking?
Yes I know we got into some
theoret- theoretical- Sure ⦠and
consciousness and awareness stuff that-
Speaker 3: Can I ask you a question?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: When we have a temptation, we
notice a wound being, you know, activated-
Speaker 2: Yeah
⦠Speaker 3: how do you turn up the light?
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I- so my experience, I have, like,
a real-life experience that happened
only a few weeks ago with this.
, I sometimes struggle with just,
like, getting a good night's sleep.
I'll wake up at 4:00 in the morning
and can't fall back asleep, and then
I gotta get up and get the kids ready
and get them to school and whatever.
And this particular day, I was able to,
my schedule permitted it, I was able to
go back to sleep at, like, m- 7:30 or
8:00 AM, and I was like, "Oh, good, I
can, like, catch up on sleep," right?
So I went back to sleep.
I woke up at, like ⦠I was
kinda in and out of, of sleep
or consciousness for a while.
I woke up around, like, 11:00,
and the house was empty.
And I got up, and I just was, like,
roaming around the house for a minute,
and I was like, "Where is everyone?"
Like, "What is going on?"
And all of a sudden, I felt like a
little boy Alone in my house, abandoned.
And in that context, that would be majorly
triggering for me to be like, "Oh, this
is an opportunity to go and comfort
myself," to go and get that dopamine
hit, and to treat this feeling of, I
feel abandoned and alone, and bored too.
Like, all of those things were
just right there in that moment.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker 2: Major trigger
for me in, in the past.
In this particular context, and
this was only, again, a few weeks
ago, I was like, "Wow, I am feeling,
like, a little lost right now.
I'm feeling kind of abandoned.
I'm feeling lonely."
And I could hear this little part
of me that was like, "Oh yeah, this
is like the perfect storm for you
to , binge or, or relapse or whatever."
But it didn't have the pull that
it's had, you know, in the past.
And I, I coulda, I could see it
and identify what it was and go,
"What I actually need right now,
what I actually want, what I
really want is to feel connected."
Like that's what I am, that's
what I'm craving right now.
You
Speaker 3: didn't wanna be alone.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
I don't wanna be alone.
I wanna feel connection.
And the pain of it wasn't so great that
I was desperate to, to relieve that pain
because of, I think, the work that I
have done in this arena of abandonment,
loneliness, what does it mean about me?
You get to the meaning of
things, meaning of circumstances,
the meaning of, uh, triggers.
Emotions.
And you get down toâ¦
Yeah, the meaning of emotions, 100%.
And you get down to any negative,
painful, hurtful, belief that
I have is, is a lie, usually.
Well, no, I'd say almost all the time.
Anything that's, like, causing
me pain is because I'm believing
something that isn't true about
myself and my relationship with God.
Like, period.
Like, why does being alone hurt?
It doesn't, unless I believe that
it means something painful, right?
Yeah.
Being, I ac- I love being in solitude.
I, I love it when I'm in
a good head space, right?
But if I'm believing that it means that
I'm not worthy of love and belonging
and acceptance, that hurts to be alone.
Loneliness only hurts if we believe
a story about it or, or a, a
meaning about it, and it usually
has to do with our sense of worth.
Speaker: That's usually when
shame enters the picture.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
For sure.
Yeah.
100%.
So in that context, I could see it.
I felt like the light was
already on in a sense, and I was
like, "Wow, I recognize this."
And then I went, "Man, the thing I
really am, am desiring right now or
needing right now is connection."
And I went and got on the phone
and I called my sister who is going
through a hard time right now.
And I just called and she answered and
I was like, "Hey, how are you doing?
What's going on?"
And we just started connecting
and then she held space for me
and I was like, "Man, I just woke
up like feeling really lonely."
And she's like, "I feel
that all the time."
And we just had this connection moment
and that f- that like, 'cause there
was this little, this little, um, there
was a feeling of discomfort in it.
I don't wanna make it sound
like that wasn't there.
It was there.
Uh, it dissipated in that connection.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, "Wow, I, I'm gonna
count that as like what a win."
I- in hindsight I was like, man,
that feeling of like abandonment,
of loneliness, of oh, does
that attack my sense of worth?
Does that attack something
deeper within me?
I was like, I could feel
it was sort of there.
It was like I could see it.
I could see that table or
whatever it was, you know?
I could see it was there.
I felt it to a degree, but not
to the depths I used to that
then didn't drive me to like I
have to just escape this somehow.
And I felt like I was able, empowered
in a sense with that light, uh, and with
that awareness to choose a different path.
Hmm.
Um, now do I have a perfect
track record of doing that?
Of course not.
But that was a, a story where I s- I saw
it clearly and I felt empowered by that
and was able to choose differently and
it like, it took care of that, um, that
feeling way better than some counterfeit
would have- Totally ⦠that, that I
might have sought out in the past, right?
Right.
Which would've only perpetuated
the shame and the struggle,
I, I wanna like double-click on that a
little bit because I don't think that
I would've been able to do that had I
not done some deeper work that preceded-
That circumstance.
And that's, that's the kind of
work, like what I experienced with,
um, her name's Tara, that, that
girl that walked me through my
beliefs around my sense of worth.
I don't think I would've been able toâ¦
And, and I've had many other experiences
since then that have addressed,
sometimes the same wound comes up,
and it's like, "Whoa, I got more I
need to process and feel and, and-
Mm-hmm ⦠and experience here."
Sometimes it's, man, I have, uh,
let's make the analogy of like
these are physical wounds, right?
Um, let's say I've g- I've got this wound
on my shoulder, and man, that was like
the loudest, most painful one, right?
And sometimes it's, it's infected,
and I like, I gotta like clean
it out, and that is the purging
process that's feeling the feels.
It's letting it out.
And now, okay, I've cleaned that
out, now I'm gonna bandage it up.
It's, it's not instantlyâ¦
Sometimes, though, I think we
can experience like instant
healing experiences, like
miraculous healing experiences.
In this case, it's like,
okay, I bandaged it up.
If it gets poked, it's not nearly
as painful as it used to be.
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: But it's still
a little tender, right?
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
But it's gonna heal over time, and
the more I'm tending to that wound
and taking good care of it, it's like
it's getting healthier and stronger,
and to the point where, man, that
doesn't even trigger me anymore.
Like, something that would attack
my sense of worth that used to like
bring me down, and now it's like,
oh yeah, that doesn't really- Mm-hmm
hurt like it used to 'cause
I'm, I'm now in a space of light
and truth about that, right?
Yeah.
There's, there's been a healing process
in that, and I think sometimes those,
those one-off really impactful experiences
aren't enough to complete the healing.
And, and there's a continuation of,
um, of learning about that principle
that, that tends to the wound.
So let's say it is about sense of worth.
I had a really powerful
one-off experience about worth.
What can follow is, man, I gotta like,
I wanna learn more about this, and I'm
gonna like focus my scripture study or
my prayer or m- what, my other spiritual
practices around this idea of worth.
And then there's like this rich, deep
study and doctrinal and spiritual like
nourishment that happens right at the
place of the wound, and that is a healing.
That's like the slower work but really
powerful work in becoming more whole.
Speaker: Yep.
Speaker 2: So let's say like with
continuing with this analogy, it's
like, man, that worth wound was the
biggest, loudest, most painful one.
I've done some work on that.
Awesome.
Now that this one's starting to
feel better, oh, I'm noticing like
on my left side, in my ribs here,
like oh my gosh, there's this one.
Oh, okay.
What is this one about?
And then you start to notice, you know,
the other layers and the other wounds
that come up, and then my next process,
my next, you know, psychodrama experience
or breathwork experience, the next thing
comes up and is ready to be worked through
and processed and, and healed essentially.
Yeah.
I don't know if there's ever an end
to doing this work in mortality.
Like, the next one just shows up,
and then the next one, and then,
oh, man, maybe this one got banged
up again, and like we might need
to, to re-address that, that wound.
Um, but back to this experience
around like, man, I felt like
lonely, abandoned, isolated.
I can look at like, man, I, I did
some work around that, and it- often
it all, it, it like traces back
to a sense of worth when you get
r- right down to the core of it.
Uh, it's just coming in from
different angles, right?
It's like, "Oh, my
mistakes define my worth.
Oh, being abandoned, that meant I
wasn't worthy of, of being loved,
of being kept, of-" Totally.
whatever," right?
"Oh, whatever this other thing is."
It can, it usually gets back to worth.
Um, but I think that there's, there's
tremendous benefit and value in turning
on the lights, in- increasing that
light by being curious, open, aware.
Sometimes we're guided,
uh, through a process.
I feel like our own intuition, our
instinct, our spirit is like, "Hey,
you're ready for this one now,"
and it'll just bring it to our
awareness in whatever tool or whatever
context we're working on, right?
So man, that table used
to bump me all the time.
Now there's, oh yeah, there's
this other one over here.
There's this chair over here.
Or man, there's like a bunch of
spikes in the corner over there.
Like, I do not wanna walk into
that or fall into that, right?
I'm, like, butchering
this, uh, metaphor here.
But like- I got
Speaker 3: spikes all over my house.
If I don't have lights on, it's a danger.
Speaker 2: So i- I think that is the
process of, man, then when the trigger
comes up, I can identify, "Oh, I've,
I've done some work around this, and Iâ¦
and this is familiar to me," instead
of being ignorant in the dark.
Like, that's where we fall.
Yeah.
And if we resist going to these
places, 'cause a lot of us do, 'cause
we're s- we're just afraid of them.
We're afraid to go to those vulnerable
places in our souls because they're
painful, and we don't want to,
and we don't wanna feel what's
around it, and usually there's
deep grief in all of these places.
Yep.
Underneath the anger, underneath
any other emotions, there's
usually a, a deep sense of grief.
Yeah.
'Cause grief is a result of losing
something, and loss is, can be connected
to almost any of our core wounds.
Loss of connection, loss of safety,
loss of, um, nurturing, loss of
a masculine presence in the home.
Whatever it is, like, we can almost
always trace it back to loss and grief.
And man, as men, we, it has been drilled
into us that we don't cry and we don't
feel, and, and that's either a sign
of weakness or it's whatever, right?
Like, so to actually allow ourselves to
go to those places in, through whatever
tool or means, but to go there and
witness what's here and actually allow
ourselves to grieve allow ourselves
to grieve the loss that we experience.
And this isn't a pity party.
This isn't like, "Oh, I'm just gonna
sit here and feel bad about myself."
This is a healing process.
Yeah.
And it's finally allowing the thing to
be felt that we have been suppressing or
running from or avoiding our entire lives.
And it's like we, we honor it in
finally allowing it to be felt.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then there's a
healing that happens in that.
And in that process of feeling and
releasing, we also get to the truth.
Let's, we talk about the light a lot.
Now let's get to the truth.
When the lights come on, we see
there's all kinds of stuff going
on, and l- and then we're able to
discern what is real and what is true
and what is false, what is a lie.
And that's the process I got
to experience that I told you
about earlier with- Totally
like, "Oh, I've got this stack of evidence
that says I'm worthless, that I'm of,
that I'm unworthy and worthless," right?
Challenging that lie, questioning
it, getting curious without judgment,
without shaming, just like, "Is
it really true that I am totally
unworthy and totally worthless?"
Like, is that always true?
Has it always been true?
It's like, uh, of course not.
Of course, it's not true, and
it's doctrinally not true.
Like, where in scripture, like, you
know, you start to get into, like,
these sacred texts, and you look for
truth and error in those, and you learn
from those sources as well, right?
And so you challenge that thing,
and then you go, "Okay, if that
isn't true, then what is true?"
And I love that you brought up
affirmations earlier 'cause I wanna,
like, speak to that really quick.
Sometimes I think there is deception
in a positive affirmation that can be
exaggerated, uh, to no longer be a truth.
Mm-hmm.
For example, for me to say I am powerful,
that's true in certain contexts.
It's not an absolute truth.
I'm not ab- I'm not omnipotent or,
uh, omniscient or whatever, right?
Mm-hmm.
Like, that is not true.
So it's, it is true that I am actually
powerless or not powerful a lot of
the time and in a lot of situations.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm careful with what
affirmations I cling to.
I'm glad you
Speaker: said that- That's good
because one Of the affirmations that
I tried for a long time was, like,
"I'm powerful, and I'm in control."
Speaker 2: Yeah.
What if you're not?
I'm not.
You're right.
No, and, and the, the big one
you always hear is, "I'm enough."
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think it's
a beautiful truth in context.
Speaker: Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: I am enough because why?
Because of God.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: That's why I'm enough.
On my own, independent, alone,
abandoned, I'm not enough.
I'm not enough alone.
And you know what really,
like, distilled this for me?
In, uh, in the LDS tradition, there's
this book of scripture called the
Pearl of Great Price, and there's,
in the Book of Moses, there's this
story, and this is the thing that
was sort of an aha moment for me.
Moses has this really amazing
vision, this experience of seeing,
uh, I think it's described as, like,
"I will show you this one thing."
This is God speaking to Moses.
He's like, "I'll show you this one thing,"
and he shows him the, the whole earth
and all of the inhabitants thereof or
whatever, and he's totally overwhelmed-
Speaker 3: He's
Speaker 2: like, "I'll
show you this one thing-"
by this one creation ⦠which
is- It's gonna blow your mind.
⦠everything.
And he's like, "And I have numberless
creations, and you just saw one," right?
And so the way I remembered it is
I, I'm like, he blacks out, right?
He, like, passes out, uh, and, and the
way I remembered is, "Oh, he was just
so overwhelmed by everything that he
saw and God's majesty and creations."
And then when he comes to, he says
this really profound statement.
He says, uh, "Now I know that
man is nothing, which thing I
had never supposed," something
along those lines, right?
And I was like, "Well, hold on.
If we're saying all these affirmations
of, like, 'I'm powerful, and I'm awesome,
and I'm amazing, and I'm enough,' and
then Moses is over here just having had
a vision of all the inhabitants of the
earth, and he's like, 'Man is nothing.'"
I'm like, "How does
that- Where's the truth?
What, what reconciles these
statements, these claims, right?
Yeah.
Um, and whatâ¦
W- when I went back, I was just
thinking about this, and I went back
and I look in the scriptures, and
there was a whole verse that I had
totally forgot was even in there.
And in between the vision and Moses
losing his strength and passing out,
there's this critical verse that says,
"God withdrew his presence from Moses."
God withdrew his presence, and
that's when Moses went down.
Hmm.
And then when he comes to,
he goes, "Man is nothing."
And for me, the connection, the light
bulb moment, this, like, illumination
was that without God, man is nothing.
Speaker: Oh, wow.
Speaker 2: Without God, man is nothing.
Wow.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: With God, we're, we
have limitless potential, right?
With God, we canâ¦
Like, everything.
But it, it's so critical that
God is at the center of that.
Yeah.
And that's what we were
talking about earlier.
With God, yeah, I'm powerful.
With God, I'm enough.
Without him, I'm powerless.
Without him, I am not enough.
Without him, I'm nothing.
Speaker: Both things are true.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: I am a spiritual
being having aâ¦
How do we say it?
Physical
Speaker 2: experience.
Speaker: I'm a spiritual being
having a physical experience.
Speaker 2: In a fallen world.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Which is by design.
Yes.
And that's what I wanna come back to.
It's by design that we experience
mortality- Hmm ⦠and opposition.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: Moses also understood
the duality of that because,
like, right after that, he has
a conversation with the devil.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker 3: So he just said,
"Man is nothing," then the
devil comes, and he's like-
Speaker 2: I'm a son
Speaker 3: of God
"Worship me."
And he's like, "Who are you?"
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 3: I am a son of God.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: That's so interesting.
Speaker 2: So he's in connection with God.
He was able to have that power, right?
Yeah.
To, to resist and to challenge the,
the accuser who was telling him a lie,
right, of limiting his sense of identity.
Speaker 3: Believing that truth that
man is nothing did not limit his power-
Speaker 2: Yeah
Speaker 3: or eliminate the truth
that with God he can do anything.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
, So an interesting additional perspective
on this statement of man is nothing.
So, uh, Nikki Covington, a good
friend of mine, and you met him at
the- Yep ⦠at the last retreat.
He leads us in Tai Chi, and
he's got this kind of East meets
West, perspective on things.
Uh, he's Japanese American and
studies things, like, deeply.
He's awesome.
He talked about our perception in the
West generally about the word nothing
is usually something kind of negative.
Like, nothing is, like, this void.
It's emptiness.
It's darkness.
It's, it's like a, a
vortex or whatever, right?
He, and he's like, "When you, in,
in Eastern thought, nothing doesn't
have those same connotations.
Nothing is like a blank canvas."
Speaker: Hmm.
" Speaker 2: It's like
endless possibilities."
Speaker: Mm.
Speaker 2: And I was like, "Holy.
Whoa."
So what if I thought of that meaning- Man
is nothing ⦠with man is nothing, right?
Isn't that cool?
That's interesting.
Like, whoa.
Man is limitless.
Yeah.
Wow.
Endless potential.
Isn't that beautiful?
That is beautiful.
So I just had to share that thought.
There's so much, like,
richness in those scriptures.
Speaker: Yeah.
Uh, so what I'm hearing you say,
a- and hopefully I summarize this
well, is there's a process that has
to happen in order for us to heal.
Yeah.
And that process has to do with
finding light and truth, right?
Yes.
The light illuminates the
way for us to understand.
It reveals things to us that we hadn't
before considered, and maybe, maybe
sheds light on truths w- or I shouldn't
say, s- sheds light on deception- Yes
⦠Speaker 2: which
Speaker: we had, we had
once believed as truth.
Speaker 2: And then there's discernment.
Speaker: Yes.
Speaker 2: Yes, 100%.
Speaker: Yes.
That's it.
And then the truth comes in,
and it replaces the deception.
Yeah ⦠and through that process
of learning, understanding,
comprehending, and believing
pr- I should say belief change-
Speaker 2: Yeah
⦠Speaker: that's actually the
process of, of healing, right?
Healing from wounds.
Mm-hmm ⦠you had mentioned at one
point in the conversation that it can
be very helpful to have some of these
tools to put us in a place where we're
aside from life and we're focused just
strictly on finding light and truth.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And, um, I'm curious if youâ¦
G- 'cause you've talked about breathwork,
and I experienced breathwork when
I went to the Here Bros retreat.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: It was wild.
It was wild.
I, I mean, it was, it-
Speaker 3: And I know nothing
Speaker: about this at all
I, I learned, it was amazing ⦠I'm so
Speaker 3: curious.
Speaker: But I learned light and
truth in that breathwork experience-
Beautiful ⦠that helped me grieve.
Mm.
Like, you remember, I was
actually mourning out loud-
Speaker 2: Yeah
⦠Speaker: when we did the breathwork
session because I, things had, some things
had come up that I realized I, I never, I
didn't realize how hard that was for me.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Yeah.
Speaker: Um, but I'm curious if you,
if you wanna dive into maybe some of
the benefits of, of breathwork as a,
as a way to release pain or, To heal
Speaker 2: 100%.
So I'll, so the, the version of breathwork
that we do, that we did, and that I
practice and that I facilitate is called
holotropic breathwork, holotropic style.
And this is a practice.
So that, that word holotropic means
moving towards wholeness, and I just,
I love that, uh, as an intention
for the practice, and that's what
healing means to me, like we're,
we're moving towards wholeness.
When Jesus said, "Be therefore
perfect," that word means wholeness,
teleios or something like that, right?
Mm-hmm.
This practice, it can be traced back
pretty anciently and from different
cultures and, and different, uh,
traditions, but it was sort of made
popular in the West, uh, back in the
'70s, and there was a practitioner
named Stanislav Grof who, uh,
brought it into his, his practice.
That's a fun name.
It is a fun name.
Stanislav
Speaker: Grof.
Speaker 2: Yes.
And, uh, I think it was he and, and
his wife, uh, at the time, and, uh,
they, they introduced this breathing
technique with their, um, clients or
their patients, if you will, and they
found that it was a, a really powerful
and effective way for people to drop
into deeper states of consciousness.
And when we talked about earlier
light and, uh, awareness and
consciousness, like, that's a
path to how do we get there?
'Cause we have all kinds of things
that we have sort of stowed away in
our subconscious minds, and that's, uh,
until it becomes conscious, until we
become aware of it, it, as, um, Carl
Jung famously said, "It will direct
our lives, and we'll call it fate."
Until the unconscious becomes
conscious, it'll direct our life, and
we'll think it, we'll call it fate.
We're like, "That's just what happens.
That's just how it is.
That's just how I am."
Speaker 3: Say that again.
It's almost connecting.
Speaker 2: Until the unconscious
becomes conscious, it will direct
your life, and you will call it fate.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: And that's just
ignorance, unawareness, right?
It's like full circle back to
what we were talking about.
Yeah.
What is the source of our suffering?
Our subconscious mind directing our
lives, causing us be, to be reactive,
temperamental, angry, frustrated,
whatever because we don't know what
it is that's driving that reaction.
Yeah.
We haven't seen and tended to the wound
that is causing that painful reaction.
We haven't seen and become aware of the
false belief or the shame identity that
I've taken on, and that that's just
directing my life, and until I do the
work to see it's there and then to process
and feel and grieve and then move into
truth, it will continue to direct my
life, and I will just think that's just
the way I am or just the way life is.,
Speaker: I've always looked at
porn, and I'm just always going to.
Speaker 2: I'll never change.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So that's, that's
what this work is about, right?
Yeah.
It is unearthing what is in the
subconscious, and we can trace it
back usually to a source experience
or relationship that embedded
that, uh, belief into our, into our
psyches, into our subconscious mind.
When we're little kids, I mean, we
talked about this last time a little
bit, age zero to seven, that's when
we're the most impressionable and most
of our beliefs, uh, core beliefs, n-not
like religious beliefs, just beliefs
about, "Am I safe or not in the world?
Do I belong or not?"
Uh, that's when those are implanted,
like embedded deep in our psyches.
And then we grow up, and if we haven't
done the work of addressing, "Man,
what is that and why is that there?"
It'll just continue to
influence us subconsciously.
You had a reaction to that.
Speaker 3: My kids are
now all older than that.
So- I know ⦠whatever I
have established is done.
Speaker 2: I know.
So I, I feel you, and I have had
that same like, "Oh, crap" moment
of- ⦠"I've traumatized my kids."
And I think every parent feels that.
So like I feel you and I feel that,
and we weren't meant to be perfect
parents, and we can't be and we won't be.
And that is part of the acceptance
of the mortal experience, not
saying it's okay if we, you know,
are- Abusive, terrible parents
⦠abusive, terrible parents, right?
But we get to repair our relationships
with our kids in the way that
people do now in therapy and in
breathwork and in psychodramas.
We get to have that real-time
experience with our kids now if
we choose to, and if we understand
the process of how to do that, and
that's a beautiful, powerful thing.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So I see it.
A, a friend of mine said this once, "I
can't show my kids how to be perfect,
but I can show them how to repent."
Speaker: Hmm.
Speaker 2: In the true meaning
of repent that we talked about.
Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Beautiful truth for me, and
I'm like, "Oh, there's a balm there."
And it's called repair work
in, in parenting psychology.
There's an awesome TED
Talk all about repair work.
If anybody's thinking about this,
go look it up, TED Talk repair.
Uh, the most important tool a- of
a parent is knowing how to repair-
Yeah ⦠after damage has been done.
Speaker: They've done research, The number
one indicator of whether or not you'll
be successful in relationships later
in life is if you, know how to repair,
if repair has been modeled for you.
Pff.
Speaker 2: Amazing.
Yeah.
Speaker: So it's, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 2: Cool, cool.
Okay, we were talking about breathwork.
Yeah.
We're just like, let's come back to that.
Speaker 3: Holotropic
Speaker 2: breathing.
Yes.
So this, um, this breathing technique,
uh, it puts us into a, frequency of, of
wavelengths of our brains functioning.
Um, the theta state is where we are
the most, um, actually most connected
to ourselves as, as children.
Uh, children most often operate in the
theta wavelength, the, the theta state.
Speaker: It's the same state that
you're in if you do hypnotherapy.
Yes.
It's the same state- Mm ⦠where
high-performing athletes, professional a-
athletes are performing their best, right?
Oh, cool.
I didn't know that one.
It's like a, it's a, whenâ¦
Yeah.
It, it's- That's awesome ⦠it's
this, it's synonymous with flow
state, I, I think- The mamba Oh, cool.
Okay
⦠Speaker 3: the mamba mindset.
Speaker 2: Cool.
Speaker 3: So is this the breathing
where you, like, you inhale more
than you exhale or something?
Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it changes-
I'll, I'll explain the-
Okay ⦠the technique real quick.
So, and there's a couple of modalities,
but the one I like to do most
often is you do a two-part inhale.
Ha- first half of the inhale
is a diaphragmatic inhale,
like low in the belly.
The second half goes up into the
heart space, up into the chest.
And so the inhale just goes
and then exhale all together.
You just let it out like a sigh.
And you do that over and over, cyclical.
It's a little bit faster than,
like, a resting pace of breath.
Um, but you're doing this breathing
while you're just lying still.
We, we actually lie down on the ground.
Uh, you put a bolster under your
legs, maybe a pillow under your head.
You put on an eye mask, so
you're kind of having a little
bit of a sensory deprivation.
Mm.
And you really go inward.
Like, it just helps you with,
like, going inward, right?
You close off the external.
And then we usually play, this beautiful
soundtrack, and we crank it up.
And so the, the music, you're kind
of getting lost in that, and it's,
it sort of becomes the background
soundtrack of whatever experience-
Oh, nice ⦠that you're having.
So you're just breathing deeply
with this technique for about f- 25
to 30 minutes, like continuously.
Wow.
And so the first few minutes, you're
kind of, like, getting used to it.
Maybe your mouth's feeling a little dry.
You know, it, my experience the first
time, I talked about it, uh, on the last,
uh, episode, but I was really, like, in
my body initially, and just, and kind of
thinking, like, "This is sort of weird.
This is sort of different.
I've done other meditations.
This is not like those."
Um, and then I just started
to shift my focus a little
bit to, uh, sort of a mantra.
I just kept thinking,
"God is above all this."
Like, that's what was
going through my head.
I'm like, "God is above all this.
God is above all this."
And as I continued with the breathing,
and I just kept having a, a cyclical
kind of, uh, thought like that,
something shifted And suddenly I felt
like God just, like, picked me up
out of my body in spirit, and I was
having this sort of out-of-body, like,
almost vision-like type of experience.
And that was one of the most powerful,
like, purges of the self-doubt and
the, and the, uh, shame and the
self-loathing and all of that, that
I had been carrying for many months
leading up to that experience.
And it just, like, rungâ¦
I felt like it just rung out of me.
And it was through tears.
It was through making sounds.
I was not, I was not so shy that Iâ¦
You know, I was allowing the, the s-
the sounds of my cries to just come out.
And in part it was just lost in the
music that was playing in the room.
Yeah.
And I had this incredible release.
And man, when I, when I let that finally
come out, it just created all this space
for love to flow in, and I felt, like,
an abundance, an overabundance of love.
And I, I think I already
talked about that last time.
But, um, that's just one example.
Uh, I've had other experiences where
a particular memory or relationship
or, um, a feeling will come up, and I
feel like it, it happens intuitively.
As we're doing this breathing, it's
like our, our subconscious mind
or our spirit, I would say, is,
is like, "Okay, this one's ready."
And I'm in a space where I'm allowing
it to be, allowing it to be seen,
allowing it to exist, and I'm going
deeper in this meditation and it's like,
"Okay, you're ready for this one now.
Here it is."
I had one that was all about
my relationship with my dad.
Um, I had one that was all about
my relationship with my wife.
Uh, and it, and it wasn't like I
went into that practice thinking,
"Oh, this is what I'm gonna do."
That's what's
Speaker: cool about
Speaker 2: it- It just
emerged ⦠is you don't have to
Speaker: know.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
It just, it came.
I f- through this breathing, through
connecting with something deeper within
me, it was like, "This is what's ready."
And I feel like it just
meets us where we're at.
And then I've had other times with this
practice where it's, it was just like a
peaceful meditation experience- Mm ⦠and
nothing super deep or profound happened.
Right.
And that's okay, too.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: Um, but there's some beautiful
ideas around, uh, the concept of
breath that I will often share before
we go into a meditation practice.
Um, f- if, if I could share
a couple of those thoughts.
I
Speaker: was gonna ask you to.
Speaker 2: Perfect.
Okay.
So-
Speaker: So it's-
Speaker 2: Some good stuff.
Okay.
It's
Speaker: so good.
Speaker 2: So one quote that I
love to share, because for a lot of
people, they have never heard this
quote, but it's from somebody that
they recognize in the LDS tradition.
This is by David O.
McKay, okay?
"I think we pay too little
attention to the value of
meditation, a principle of devotion.
Meditation is the language of the soul.
It is a form of prayer.
It is one of the most secret,
most sacred doors through which we
enter into the presence of God."
Like, whoa, why are we not
talking more about that?
Right?
And then when you look in scripture,
you see it everywhere, like ponder,
meditated, and it always precedes a
vision or some spiritual manifestation.
Speaker: Totally.
Speaker 2: Every time you look at
that pattern in scripture, oh, they
were pondering, they were meditating,
they were in a place of, of stillness,
and then this thing unfolded or
something illuminated or whatever.
There's a pattern for revelation, and
meditation is a part of that pattern.
Beautiful insight.
So breath has this,
spiritual significance.
In many languages and traditions,
breath is the same word that is used
for spirit, life force, wind, or energy.
And so you see it in the, , it's,
it's prana in the Vedas.
Prana means energy, life force, spirit.
You see it in qi.
You've heard of qi, right?
Like, we all have our qi, and it's that,
like, energy that moves through us.
It also is synonymous with breath.
And in the English language, we
don't really have that, , except
for maybe in the word like inspire,
you know, inspiration, respiration.
There's, like, some connections there.
But in other traditions, it's,
like, very much connected.
Breath and spirit are very much connected.
And it's true in the Hebrew and in the
Greek and the, in the Aramaic, which is
likely the language that Jesus spoke.
So when you look at scripture where breath
shows up or where spirit shows up, those
could be interchangeably, translated.
And so you even get these, you see
in scripture, like in the story of
creation, God breathes into Adam
through his nostrils the breath of
life, and he receives his spirit.
That's, one and the same kind of, action.
And so what does this mean
when we're, when we're doing a
breathwork exercises, exercise?
It's like saying we're doing spirit work.
When we're conscious of our breath, we're
becoming more conscious of our spirit
self, our true self, our eternal self.
Yeah.
That's a beautiful concept that I didn't,
I wasn't aware of prior to learning
about all this breathwork stuff, right?
And it goes even a layer deeper.
There are some traditions where the
name of God is connected to breath.
In Sufism, there's this secret
name of God, and it is the sound
of a, a vibrating exhale, like ooh.
And, and that is the secret name of God.
It's a breath.
It's like- Hmm ⦠it's
expressed through breath.
And what I did not know prior to hearing
this quote was that the same is true
in the Judeo-Christian tradition with
the name that, , is in the Hebrew.
Uh, we, we pronounce it Yahweh.
We, we, we say Jehovah usually,
but that original Hebrew
name- I see this ⦠Yahweh.
Have you heard of this?
Yeah.
It's so beautiful, and I'd love
to actually share this just to
kinda close out this, this part.
Okay, so this passage comes from a
woman named Sandra Thurman Caporal, and
she shared the following: "There was
a moment when Moses asked God what his
name is, and God was gracious enough
to answer, and the name he gave is
recorded in the original Hebrew as YHWH.
Over time, we've added the A and
the E, and we pronounce it Yahweh,
but scholars and rabbis have noted
that the letters represent breathing
sounds or aspirated consonants.
So when pronounced without the vowels,
they s- it sounds like a breath.
The YH being the
inhale , the WH is the exhale
. So a baby's first cry would
speak the name of God."
A deep sigh calls his name, or a groan
or gasp that is too heavy for mere words.
A person leaves this earth with
their last breath when God's name
is no longer filling their lungs.
So when I can't utter anything
else, does my cry call out his name?
Being alive means I speak
his name constantly.
So is it heard the loudest
when I am the quietest?
In sadness, we breathe heavy sighs.
In joy, our lungs feel
almost like they will burst.
In fear, we hold our breath
and have to be told to breathe
slowly to help us calm down.
When we're about to do something hard, we
take a deep breath to find our courage.
When I think about it, breathing is giving
him praise even in the hardest moments.
This is so beautiful, it fills me with
emotion every time I grasp the thought.
God chose to give himself a
name that we can't help but
speak every moment we're alive.
All of us, always, everywhere,
waking, sleeping, breathing with
the name of God on our lips."
End of quote.
Gives me the chills.
Wow.
I read that almost every time we
go into a breathwork practice.
Yeah.
And then we're breathing, praising,
praying, speaking the name of God.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's incredible.
Speaker: It's true.
A- and, and what I felt really clearly,
um, come to me in the breathwork session-
Mm-hmm ⦠that, that I did when I
went to the Here Brotherhood retreat-
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm
⦠Speaker: was, like, God's with
me at all times because of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: And that's a really
beautiful truth about God.
Um, so I, I'm soâ¦
I mean, I've done a lot
of different healing.
I definitely endorse, uh, psychodrama.
I definitely en- uh, endorse,
uh, maybe a few other things.
But breathwork is, breathwork is
probably top two or three for me.
Hmm.
Like, it isâ¦
I, I would notâ¦
There's just some things I don't think I
could have accessed- In the way that I
accessed them in that breathwork session.
I've never experienced anything like it,
it was all very clear to me in a moment.
Mm.
I felt one with God.
And there was a lot of
healing that took place.
Amazing.
A lot of mourning.
For me, it was mourning.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: Uh, people have
different experiences.
Yeah.
But if you, if you feel like you're stuck,
and I know, Mike, you, I'd love it if
you would just kinda, you know, put a
little, plug in for yourself because you,
you do, guided breathwork meditations.
But-
Speaker 2: Yeah
⦠Speaker: if you're looking for more,
resources, tools, ways to move past
the wounds and, and get unstuck,
I'd recommend breathwork to you.
Mike, you wanna talk a little bit about
the resources that you guys offer?
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
So I have a little studio
in Highland, Utah, and I do
breathwork about twice a month.
And I have a calendar on our website.
That's thelightinus.org.
And, um, actually, we had a couple
s- sessions where somebody came and
they said, "Oh, I, I heard you on
the, on the Shane podcast," and they
came because- No way ⦠of that.
That's awesome.
From the last one, yeah.
So shout out to, to those guys.
Um, but yeah, that's a, that's a great
way to, to see what's coming up on
the calendar, and we have a couple
scheduled already for, um, for September.
And, and we'll continue to update the
calendar, uh, in the coming months.
We are on Instagram as well.
We post some, some, uh,
events and, and activities on
there, and that's just theâ¦
It's, like, _thelightinus_ on Instagram.
And then, uh, I post things
on LinkedIn pretty regularly.
And then, uh, you can also find our
retreats, which are a little more
of an immersive, deeper experience
that also includes psychodrama and
breathwork and a lot of other stuff.
And those are, are easiest
to find on hearbros.com,
so H-E-A-R-E-B-R-O-S.com.
We've got a retreat coming
up in November, and, uh- And
Speaker: I'll be there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right on.
So if you wanna
Speaker: come- I'm so excited.
If, if you wanna come
hang out with me- Yeah.
⦠and Mike-
Speaker 2: Yeah.
⦠sign up.
Let's do some breathwork, guys.
Speaker: Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a really good experience.
First time I went.
Cool.
I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: Right on.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm glad.
No, you, you did s- And I've been to
other really good men's retreats- You
did some deep work, man ⦠but it was
Speaker: really good.
Speaker 2: You did some deep work.
I did.
I got to, I got to witness
it, and it was incredible.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So yeah, that's, those are some
ways to, to stay connected.
And if, if you're not able to, you
know, be in Utah or come to a retreat
or whatever, well, first, we do have
sponsorshi- sponsorships for retreats.
So if you're like, "Man, I can't afford
that right now," you can submit a form
and get, uh, get financial aid to come
'cause w- we don't want money to be
the reason that you're not coming to
be able to have these experiences.
But aside from that, there are a lot
of really good online resources around.
Just look up guided holotropic breathwork.
Um, there's a great book called
"Breath" by James Nestor that was,
like, a New York Times bestseller.
Has some r- some great
resources and insights in there.
Uh, there's just a lot of good stuff out
there, and there are other practitioners
that do, uh, similar stuff to what I do.
Um, not all of them have the same sort
of, uh, you know, Christ-centered focus.
Uh, w- but I think the,
you know, comingâ¦
If, if that is a part of your,
your belief system and you go
into a practice with that, I think
you will have that experience.
Mm-hmm.
So yeah.
Speaker: Mike, thanks
for being on again, man.
Speaker 2: No, thanks for having me.
Speaker: Yeah.
Uh, you instilled some wisdom today.
I'm gonna have to go listen to this
one three times because there'sâ¦
You, I feel like you did a deep
dive into all these different
pieces of the healing process.
If you back it out and you really look at
the healing process that you described,
that is how you heal, and
that's how the Lord heals us.
This isn't something that's
outside of, of Christianity
or most religious affiliation.
Like, this is the process
of healing for human beings.
So thanks for enlightening us.
Thanks for being on again.
Sam: No, thank you.
Just, it's good to have you.
No, it's so good to talk about this stuff
'cause it's been my, my lived experience,
and it's the work that I continue to do.
I, I continue to do the healing work.
Yeah.
And, and it's awesome, and sometimes it's
a little scary, but it's always worth it.
Always worth it.
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