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Eggheads is the go-to podcast for egg industry professionals who are interested in leadership and innovation in the egg world. Host Greg Schonefeld explores the evolving world of modern egg farming, from the latest in cage-free innovations and organic certifications to navigating the economics of large-scale production. Whether you're an egg producer, supplier, or involved in poultry genetics, this show provides the insights and expert discussions you need to thrive in the industry. Crack open the science, strategies, and stories behind the egg industry’s biggest challenges and opportunities.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
It is the nature of nutrition research. I used to like to blame the media, but it's not entirely their fault because there are studies one day coffee's good for you, the next day coffee's bad for you. It's very confusing. So I talk about critical thinking a lot and try to help people get perspective and look at the big picture. Just because there's an association or a correlation between a food, a nutrient, or a health outcome doesn't mean that one causes the other. It means that it informs future research on that particular food or nutrient.
Greg Schonefeld:
Hey there. Welcome back to Eggheads. I'm Greg Schonefeld. It seems like there's been competing schools of thought about whether eggs are good or bad for you, and that goes for nutrition in general. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by the endless stream of conflicting nutrition advice out there, you're not alone. We'll get to my chocolate milk conundrum a bit later. Thankfully, we're cutting through the noise with a guest who knows a thing or two about demystifying diet myths.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
You don't need to feel bad about it. I find a lot of people just want permission. They enjoy a lean steak and they don't want to feel bad about including it in their diet.
Greg Schonefeld:
Melissa Joy Dobbins is a seasoned registered dietitian and certified diabetes educator with over 30 years of experience in the field. Known as the Guilt-Free RD, Melissa champions a philosophy that food should be enjoyed without guilt, dispelling the myths perpetuated by fear-mongering and misleading influencer marketing. For the past nine years, she has hosted the popular podcast, Sound Bites, where she discusses various nutrition trends and fads, interviewing experts and sharing science-based insights. Her mission is to help people feel less stressed about food and enjoy it. She believes deeply that having a balanced, realistic perspective on health and nutrition empowers people to make informed decisions, enjoy their food without guilt and maintain a sustainable and healthy lifestyle.
Throughout her career, Melissa has seen wild swings in the nutrition space. From the fat-free craze to the carb overload, from the demonization of cholesterol to the rise of plant-based diets, she's seen it all. In this episode, she'll share her insights on these trends, the importance of critical thinking in nutrition and how to navigate the often-confusing world of food research. But first, I wanted to find out just how a dietitian rides the seemingly never-ending wave of here-now gone-later nutrition movements.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
A lot of trends and fads come and go. The good thing with social media is that it is providing an opportunity for more voices to get out there because we're filling some of the void that traditional media doesn't reach. But the bad news is, then, there's a lot of non-credible voices out there. So as a credentialed health professional, always trying to combat the misinformation and disinformation that "influencers" are putting out there, very sensational. A lot of it is just really not evidence-based. So you take the good with the bad. But early in my career, maybe even before I was a dietician, it was the fat-free craze, and then everybody overdid it on carbs, then cholesterol and eggs got a bad rap. So we're going to talk about that because that's age-old information that persists, unfortunately.
Then we've come fast-forward to the paleo and keto and all of these trending diets. Luckily, the most popular diet out there is the Mediterranean diet. So that is a healthy balanced diet, and we're hearing a lot about plant-based and plant-forward. And, again, thinking of eggs, they're a nice compliment to that trend because if you're completely vegan, which is fine, you're going to miss out on certain nutrients, important nutrients. So it can be done, but from a dietician standpoint, I just like to let people know you're going to have to be a little bit more thoughtful and a little bit more careful about your food choices and then also what supplements you might need to fill those nutrient gaps.
Greg Schonefeld:
So it sounds like no matter what media landscape we're in, there ends up with misinformation or a lot of information out there. And I guess that's something I've noticed just as a consumer living in this world that you hear one thing one day and a different the next.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Yes.
Greg Schonefeld:
Is that just driven by competing voices or changing ideas or incomplete studies or what causes all that?
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
That's a great question. I'm so glad you asked because it's the nature of nutrition research. So I'd like to talk about that briefly.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
I used to like blame the media, but it's not entirely their fault because there are studies one day coffee's good for you the next day coffee's bad for you, and it's very confusing. And as a health professional, I can look at the body of research and know that one study does not change the recommendations. You have to look at how well the study was designed. Was it a randomized control trial or was it just observational? And the nature of nutrition research, first of all, it's a very young area and most nutrition research is observational or epidemiology because it's very hard to do randomized control trials where you have a placebo, you've got a blind group, you've got a placebo, versus, let's say, it's an avocado study. Well, people know if they're getting an avocado or not. It's not as easy to do randomized control trials with food versus a supplement or a medication.
So there's a lot of challenges inherent in nutrition research, and that's before you even get to the dissemination or the communication about any particular study that's coming out. So I talk about critical thinking a lot on my podcast and just, again, those limitations or challenges inherent in nutrition research and try to help people get perspective and look at the big picture. So one of the simple things is to know if you hear something in the news, again, that one study does not mean it changes decades of research. Another thing is because nutrition research is predominantly epidemiology observational, that can only show a correlation or an association. It doesn't determine cause and effect. You need a randomized control trial to look at cause and effect. So just because there's an association or a correlation between a food, a nutrient or a health outcome doesn't mean that one causes the other. It means that it informs future research on that particular food or nutrient.
Greg Schonefeld:
To be clear, these studies involve two groups, one receiving treatment and a control group that does not. Researchers then observe various health outcomes, like weight loss or lipid profiles. The list is long, but because of the need to control many variables, the complexity and expense of these studies can be extreme. Melissa emphasized the importance of study design in determining the reliability of results. While industry-funded research can face bias, the most critical thing to look at is the quality of the study's design. Because at the end of the day, the question is how good are the results? How much can you trust the results? What were the limitations? What were the findings? These are questions for those conducting the study.
For others, outside of these studies, it can be easy to cling to certain results by cherry-picking the headlines, but saying something with conviction on the internet doesn't make it true. Many people today pick up their phone, scroll through headlines and fail to dig into the results. All of a sudden, you could come to a conclusion that coffee's bad for you. To be clear, I'm not saying coffee's bad for you. I drink ample amounts every day. The point is that there's a danger when information is taken at face value because the practical reality of science involves many variables and simply looking at headlines isn't enough to understand the full picture.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
And a lot of those headlines, let's face it, they're sensational and maybe they misconstrue the actual results. And it's even hard to get a dietician or other health professionals to go and actually read the actual study if it's open access and look at the study design, look at what the actual conclusions or results said, let alone somebody who's just in the general public, they're not going to go and read that.
Greg Schonefeld:
And, I guess, some of these things, they really gain traction. It could be a study that had its flaws in how it was conducted, but then for whatever reason, it gains traction. Is it, well, it's just this catchy thing, or it just catches a certain wave? How does the wrong thing catch a wave and continue to influence people for years despite being wrong?
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Yes, there's a lot of that with nutrition research. I think part of it is just human nature. We aren't born critical thinkers, and many of us aren't taught that in school. I think it's being taught more now, which is just taking a step back and looking at the big picture. But I think that when you hear something like red wine is just as good for you as exercise, we want to believe it. We want to believe it, but it's just not the case. And so I think that whether it's a fear tactic message or a wishful thinking, some foods have a health halo and other foods are villainized, and it just really muddies the water and it just makes it really hard for people to know what they should believe, who they should listen to, and at the end of the day, what they should do.
So as an educator, I've seen people just throw up their hands and say, "Forget it. I'm just going to keep doing what I've been doing because I don't know what else to do." And so that's where the dietician can come in. And obviously if you're working with somebody one-on-one, it's a lot easier to really hone in on their lifestyle, their individual needs and tailor recommendations to them. That's another problem with the mass media is when we're trying to share recommendations in a general format, things get lost in translation. They do get oversimplified. So when people hear the dietary guidelines or balance variety moderation, it's like, "Well, what does that mean?" So I think just in the communications aspect, there's limitations there.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah, there's a lot to cut through even more than I realized before talking to you. I guess as a good example, and on this topic of eggs, what happened with the whole cholesterol thing? I guess we hear different messages over the years. Do you have a timeline on that and where we stand today?
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
I've interviewed people on my podcast, namely Mickey Rubin, who is a PhD research scientist who works with the Egg Nutrition Center, and he talks through that whole timeline. But the short answer to that is there was some old research that, as you said, caught traction. And it was that the whole cholesterol story, that cholesterol in food raises your blood cholesterol and it's bad for heart disease. But the research subsequently, decades of research after that, took its foothold, shows that what we really do know is that saturated fat in the diet raises the blood cholesterol. The cholesterol that we eat doesn't really cause the body to make more cholesterol. We consume it, it adds to what we have, but the mechanism in the body is just a little bit different.
And with egg research in particular, they've shown that besides all the positive nutrients that it has, whether you're looking at heart health or diabetes, that having eggs as part of a healthy overall diet does not increase your risk for heart disease or diabetes or bad lipid profile. And the research is very strong there, but this is a typical nutrition story where they're still fighting an old story and it's stuck.
Greg Schonefeld:
So at this point, it's pretty conclusive that it's not an issue. But that was the story for so long that it's natural that some people are still holding onto that today.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Yes, and I can read some specific points. The couple things that I can share is the 2015, 2020 dietary guidelines for Americans include eggs in all three of the recommended eating patterns, and that's the healthy vegetarian, the healthy Mediterranean, and the healthy US pattern. And the majority of scientific evidence demonstrates that eggs, as I said, when part of an overall healthy diet are not associated with heart disease risk, do not negatively impact risk factors for heart disease, such as blood cholesterol levels. And on top of that, cholesterol is not what we call a nutrient of concern. The government and health organizations have removed dietary cholesterol limits and include eggs in recommended healthy eating patterns. So it's not just that we have all this great research, it's actually been implemented into the dietary guidelines.
Greg Schonefeld:
Not too long ago, eggs were cast as a villain in the world of nutrition notorious for their cholesterol content. Health experts warned us to steer clear citing concerns over heart health. As health experts and media outlets warned of the dangers of dietary cholesterol, consumers started to shy away from eggs, leading to a noticeable decline in egg consumption. In fact, according to the USDA data, in the 1970s, the average American consumed around 300 eggs per year. However, by the 1990s, amid growing concerns about cholesterol and heart disease, this number had dropped significantly to about 234 eggs per year in 1991. This decline posed a significant challenge for the egg industry, forcing many in the industry to adapt or face closure. Marketing efforts had to be redirected and producers sought to innovate by offering new products like cholesterol free egg substitutes and egg whites in an attempt to regain consumer trust.
Thanks to years of scientific research, the egg has undergone a remarkable transformation in the public eye. We now understand that dietary cholesterol doesn't impact blood cholesterol levels as much as we once thought. This shift in understanding has led to a renaissance for eggs, now celebrated for their rich protein essential vitamins and healthy fats. Today, as Melissa notes, eggs are embraced in all three eating patterns recommended by the US dietary guidelines, the healthy US style, the Mediterranean, and the vegetarian diets. And today, per capita consumption is making a recovery with the latest data showing that American consumption is around 275 eggs per person per year. And as you mentioned, there are a lot of great benefits of eggs. Can you share some more of those?
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Yeah, absolutely. So in general, they're a high quality protein and protein is a topic that I talk about almost more than anything else on my podcast. Eggs provide a high quality protein. There's six grams of protein and a large egg, and it's also very budget friendly. I'm a former supermarket dietician, so I love to talk about eating healthy on a budget. They're also a food waste hero. One of my favorite ways to use eggs is to make a frittata and use up all of those vegetables that are starting to wilt. They're back in that crisper drawer. They get forgotten, they go rotten. Don't throw your cash in the trash by wasting those, mostly it's produce, but those vegetables can go into a frittata and it's a very enjoyable way to get a nutrient rich meal on the table.
They're a nutrient dense, affordable food. There's only 70 calories. They provide all nine essential amino acids. They provide B12, which it's actually an excellent source of B12. And that's especially important for older adults and also people who maybe want to do more of a plant-based vegetarian diet, maybe they don't want to have a lot of animal-based proteins, B12 is only found in animal proteins. So by having eggs or dairy as well, being a lacto-ovo vegetarian or an ovo-vegetarian can help meet that B12 requirement. There's also nutrients like lutein and zeaxanthin in the egg yolk, and that can help protect eyes from harmful blue light from computer screens and phone screens. And there's riboflavin, which is a B2 vitamin. It's a good source of that. But all of these nutrients come together to support brain health, eye health, muscle health. And then also, a lot of people don't know this protein also supports bone health.
So when I try to help people think differently about nutrition, I want them to look at there's not good or bad foods, it's how much nutrition does a food choice provide? Is it nutrient rich? So is it providing what we do have nutrients of concern, meaning that most people are lacking, fiber, potassium, vitamin D, and calcium. Those are four of concern that we're lacking. And then there's nutrients of concern that we want to limit in our diets like salt or sodium or saturated fat. And so if you just look at your food choices and say, "Does this food provide a lot of nutrients for the calorie, fat, sodium cost," is the way I like to see it.
Greg Schonefeld:
And how do eggs stack up on those nutrients that we should be getting and that we should be avoiding.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Well, there's no salt or sodium in an egg. You might add someone, you prepare it. We've already talked about the cholesterol not being an issue, and half of the protein is actually in the egg yolk. So the cholesterol is in the egg yolk, the fat is in the egg yolk, but the lutein and zeaxanthin that are good for the eyes are also in the egg yolk. So that's another old myth that we try to dispel as well, is that you can have the egg yolk too. If you just want to prefer the egg whites, that's fine, but you don't have to feel bad about including the egg yolk because there's important nutrients in there as well. So when you look at all the nutrients it provides and what those nutrients are doing for the body and that it's affordable and it's very versatile.
The reason we encourage variety is because the more variety of foods you have in your diet, the more variety of nutrients you get in your diet. So that's where I help people connect the dots and it's like, "Oh, I get it. That makes sense." Bananas are great, but if you eat bananas every day and you don't have any oranges, you're not going to get the vitamin C. So it's just something that you can keep in mind like, "Oh, a variety of produce, a variety of grains, a variety of sources of protein, plant-based animal source, they all provide different nutrients." So you want the healthy fats like avocados, olive oil, canola oil, things like that, nuts and seeds. But the protein is so important. A lot of people hear that, "Oh, everybody's getting enough protein or we're getting too much protein." And it does depend on the person, their age, their life stage.
But as we get older, we lose muscle mass and this starts as early as our 30s. And that muscle mass, this is not just about the aesthetic. Muscle mass equals strength, agility, longevity. And so between having enough protein in your diet and being active, we can maintain that muscle mass better. And so one of my favorite episodes is with Dr. Don Layman, who was the researcher, if you've heard the research about spreading your protein throughout the day, not just getting the bulk of it at dinner, but having equal amounts, if possible, at breakfast, lunch, and dinner, he's the one and his team that first did this research, gosh, over 20 years ago. And again, as a diabetes educator, that really caught my attention because I thought, "Well, this is not just good for the general public and weight management and active people, aging people, but for people with diabetes."
So I really think that we do need to hear more about protein, and we do need to determine if we ourselves are getting enough and how we can maybe shift so that we're getting a little bit more earlier in the day and not just having it all at dinner.
Greg Schonefeld:
So that's all messaging that maybe the egg industry with eggs as a great source of protein, a message that could really carry and help people and be impactful and benefit the industry as well.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Yes, and I'll say one more thing about this high quality protein. Plant-based diets are great, but there's a lot of research that shows that plant-based proteins, in general, are not as high quality. Soy is a great high quality plant-based protein, but there's different amino acids, the leucine, in particular, that animal-based proteins provide that are very important for muscle synthesis. I'm not the expert on that. Again, I can recommend the interview that I did with Dr. Don Layman and all of his wonderful research, and he communicates it so well that I think it's worth noting.
Again, if somebody wants to be more plant-based, vegetarian, vegan, that's fine. That's a choice, but I want people to make an informed choice and that there is a role for animal-based proteins in the diet. You don't need to feel bad about it. I find a lot of people just want permission. They enjoy a lean steak or they enjoy eggs or they enjoy some low-fat dairy and they don't want to feel bad about including it in their diets. So I feel like I give people permission to say, "Oh, wait, take a step back." This is providing some great nutrition, and there are ways to incorporate it so that you're minimizing those nutrients of concern that you want to limit and it can fit into the diet.
Greg Schonefeld:
Yeah, when it comes to permission, I remember once I saw somewhere that it said that chocolate milk is a great recovery drink after a workout.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
It is.
Greg Schonefeld:
Oh, man, that gave me all the permission I needed to just be drinking chocolate milk all the time because I was loving it.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Not all the time. Yeah, it's a great recovery beverage. It really is. And the research shows that.
Greg Schonefeld:
And I really like what you said about that we're not robots. Our relationship with food is more than about nutrition. It is such an important part of our lives. I think people, if it's not totally consciously, they at least know it instinctively.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
We don't just eat food for the nutrients. We have a relationship with food. Food is personal. We eat for a lot of different reasons, and I think it's important to just acknowledge that we're not robots, we're people. So with the Guilt-Free RD philosophy is just wanting to help people be a little less stressed about the foods they buy at the grocery store, bring home, consume, share with their families and friends. We eat for enjoyment. That enjoyment factor, I think, gets glossed over a lot.
Greg Schonefeld:
Melissa's Guilt-Free RD philosophy emphasizes taking the fear out of food choices, whether for weight management, diabetes or just daily eating habits. She encourages people to enjoy their food with health in mind without feeling guilty, even when indulging in less nutritious options in moderation. Not everyone can see a dietician one-on-one, but Melissa and her colleagues provide accessible evidence-based tips on social media and beyond.
It does seem like people want to know more and more what's going into their body, and that's all part of this relationship with food. How much does that maybe even extend to the farmer? In some of the discussions I've had and just being around the industry and maybe being aware on social media that people do care about the farming practices as well, and I guess you do cover the fad diets to the farming, so I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
I think it's wonderful that more farmers are getting their voices out there as well. And again, that's one of the positive results of social media. I actually worked for the Dairy Council years back before I started my business 12 years ago, and I did my master's research on dairy as well. I always like to throw that in there because people think, "Well, you worked for the Dairy Council, then you're just giving the Dairy Council messages." I'm like, "No, I actually did my research on that."
And I align my business and my values with the farming and food values that do align. And when I was working for the Dairy Council, it's when we were really starting to try to get farmers to speak out more. And I know that farmers just want to be in the field during their job. It took a lot of convincing for them to realize that their voices do matter and that people do want to hear from them. Since I left the Dairy Council, I have been on countless farm tours across the US, Canada, Europe, everything from fruits and vegetables to rice to dairy farms, cattle ranches, chicken coops. I've seen almost every food group on the farm and talked to the farmers directly. And people do want to know where their food comes from. They want to be reassured. And the good news is these farmers have a good story to tell.
If we can get through all the marketing language, people just really want information. I feel when people want the food industry to be more transparent, I think they just want information. And I truly believe back in the day when we weren't having those conversations, it's honestly because the farmers didn't think the consumers cared about that. And we know today that they do. So we are having those conversations and answering those questions and providing more resources than you can fit on a food label. I think that's another thing. Now, we have, yeah, you can scan a QR code or you can go to a website and get the deeper dive that you can't... There's only so much space on a food label, limited real estate, just like with media and social media. Where do you go to get more of your questions answered and to get it from a credible source?
Greg Schonefeld:
And what do you think people want to know? They want to know about sustainability, they want to know about food waste, they want to know about animal welfare, they want to know just, I don't know, maybe cleanliness of the environment, or do they want to just even know more about the farmer's family or beliefs? Is it all the above?
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Absolutely, all of the above. Yes, people are obviously more conscious about the impact of food on the planet. It's interesting because in the US, we do pretty well with our carbon footprint. There's other countries that have a lot of improving to do, and there's challenges with that. What we do in the US cannot be copied and pasted to certain countries. There's different cultures and religions and geography that impact all of the choices that a farmer makes on their particular farm. But I think people want to know like, "Gee, farmers are real people too." And I think a lot of things that people don't realize is how much business sense and technology goes into farming. It's mind-blowing. This isn't the dark ages where it's just a farmer and overall standing with the pitchfork. There is a lot of intelligence that goes into running a farm.
Greg Schonefeld:
I mean, at the end of the day when it comes to farming, there's people behind that, whether it's a family farm, whether it's a corporation, and that's a big part of it. So sure, they want to know the details, but if they can start to trust farmers as people, maybe that goes a long way too and whatever kind of message you can get out. And like you said, you're probably not going to find that on many food labels, but maybe there's opportunity there for the industry. And that all just stays on this theme of our relationship with food extends beyond the nutritional value it provides.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Yes, it's an exciting time because we are talking more about food and health and farming. And hopefully when people learn a little bit more, they can appreciate the complexities and the nuances and can make those decisions, again, like what's best for them. So if I could wave a magic wand, I would want people to just have the information they need to make whatever choice is right for them. And I do see some consumer insights and research showing that some people like, "Food is our identity, so I better shop at a certain store or buy certain foods because that's what my peers are doing." There's some really interesting Gen Z research on that, which I recently did a podcast episode on. The more you dig into it, the more fascinating it is.
Greg Schonefeld:
Who does influence what we eat or are there any big influences out there? And are there any particular people or maybe even this Gen Z trend you spoke about, what are some of the big actual influencers out there?
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Yes, and that ties perfectly with a point that I want to make is what makes a dietitian influencer more credible is that we have benevolence. It's in our DNA, it's in our career. We're in this field to help people. So that's one thing that you can think about when you're looking at the source is are they really trying to help me or are they just trying to grow their followers? There's a lot of "influencers" out there who a lot of them are celebrity influencers. And then there's just the self-made celebrity influencers who put out sensational content and get a big following. And that in and of itself has traction. You want to think about, are the messages they're sending, do they sound too good to be true? Is it clickbait? There's actually a checklist that I can send you that's how to spot junk science.
And actually, I have a free resource on my website that's called the Sound Science Toolkit. It's just a curation of information. It could be an article or a video or a book to help people be better critical thinkers about nutrition in the news. And I originally created it for my peers, other dieticians, but anybody can access it. The general public can as well. You just need to sign up with your email. And my website is soundbitesrd.com, and I encourage people to just peruse that resource. And there's, like I said, a checklist, how to spot junk science. There's tons of resources on how to be a better critical thinker, talking about things like confirmation bias. And if you hear something in the news about the risk of cancer, well, there's a difference between hazard and risk, and it's just getting perspective. A lot of what I do in my communications is giving people perspective.
Greg Schonefeld:
First of all, you've shared a ton of great resources here. I'm going to go check them out, and I think it'll be a benefit to a lot of listeners. And then I really appreciate how you're able to synthesize this whole world of information for us, because the food we eat is an important part of our lives. It's an important part of our every day. And I personally am one who cares about trying to get it as right as possible, but it's very difficult with all the information that is out there.
With all the stigma eggs once faced around cholesterol, it was great to gain clarity on how they fit into the dietary health guidelines with what we know today. It's clear the experts share a consensus that eggs can be an important part of our diets, offering not only protein, but many other essential nutrients. Melissa also makes an important point that we have a relationship with food that extends beyond nutrition. And I'm not just saying that because I'm looking for an excuse to drink chocolate milk. It can be easy to forget that we can enjoy our food. We may want to do that with health in mind, but when we do that, we shouldn't let fear generated by headlines dictate our food choices.
A big thank you to Melissa Joy Dobbins for sharing her insights and practical advice on nutrition and healthy eating. There was a ton of information in this episode, so please be sure to check out Melissa's podcast, Sound Bites, where you'll find more tips and in-depth discussions with experts in the nutrition space. And don't forget to follow her and other registered dieticians on social media for evidence-based nutrition advice. Thanks for listening, and make sure, if you haven't already, that you follow Eggheads on Apple, Spotify, LinkedIn and Instagram. And as always, please offer feedback where you have it. Melissa, how do you like your eggs prepared?
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
Ooh, I like a good simple scrambled egg. I do love hard-boiled eggs. The frittata that I mentioned is my newest favorite, being the food waste hero. And sometimes I serve it for dinner and I have a whole do more with dinner initiative that I've been working on the past nine years with the podcast because I talk to a lot of people who are way more culinary than I am, so I've picked up a lot of tips and breakfast for dinner can just be so easy.
Greg Schonefeld:
That's great. And I love breakfast for dinner, so you don't have to sell me on that idea.
Melissa Joy Dobbins:
I love it.