Let's Talk Careers - Racial Diversity

Tahira Majothi, EDI Partner at The University of Manchester talks to Aishah Rashid (she/her), Student Success Intern at the University of Manchester and Tokeer  Ahmed (he/him) from Capgemini.  They have a conversation about being from the Global Majority and moving from being a student into working life. 

Further information about Careers and Equality, Diversity and Inclusion at The University of Manchester can be found at https://www.careers.manchester.ac.uk/services/equality/

Creators and Guests

Host

Tahira Majothi (she/her)

A(

Guest

Aishah Rashid (she/her)

L(

Producer

Lisa Maycroft (she/her)

Producer

Lucy Hall (she/her)

T(

Guest

Tokeer Ahmed (he/him)

What is Let's Talk Careers?

This new series called Let's Talk Careers is produced by the University of Manchester Careers Service in collaboration with the Equality, Diversity and Inclusion team.

This four-part podcast will bring together students, industry professionals and Equality, Diversity and Inclusion specialists to share their experiences of Equality, Diversity and Inclusion when applying for jobs in the workplace. Each podcast will cover a particular area. The initial four are Neurodiversity, Racial Diversity, Physical Disability and LGBTQ+.

All episodes will have a transcript. If you need to access a subtitled version of the podcast please go to https://www.youtube.com/@UOMEandD.

Let’s Talk Careers – Racial Diversity

Hosted by Tahira Majothi
Guests include:
• Aishah Rahid
• Tok Ahmed

0:00:00.000 - 0:00:51.060
TAHIRA: Hello, and welcome to the third episode of our new series, Let's Talk Careers.

I am Tahira Majothi, my pronouns are she, her, and I would describe myself as being from a racialised minority, being a South Asian woman. I am an equality, diversity, and inclusion partner within the Central Equality, Diversity, and Inclusion Directorate at
the University of Manchester.

In this episode, I will be discussing racial diversity in the workplace with two guests,
and then the three of us will share our own experiences and tips and advice.

So I'd like to warmly welcome to the podcast Aishah Rashid. Who's a graduate and an employer representative, Tokeer Ahmed, but for the purposes of this talk, I'll let them introduce themselves.

So Aishah, if you want to go first.

0:00:51.060 - 0:01:21.160
AISHAH: So hi, my name's Aishah, it's nice to be here. My pronouns are she, her.

I'm a South Asian woman, so I'm from a Gishmeri background. And I work as a student success intern within the access and success team at the university. So we essentially deliver and develop both centrally and in collaboration with different faculties at the university, student success programs, which strive to enhance student sense of belonging, and crucially trying to close the awarding gap that exists between certain
groups at the university.

0:01:21.160 - 0:01:23.020
TAHIRA:Thank you. And Tok.

0:01:23.020 - 0:01:56.360
TOK: Hi, everyone, I'm Tok Ahmed. My pronouns are he, him. I am of British South Asian heritage. So yes, you mentioned that I'm from an external company.

So yeah, I work for a tech consulting company called Capgemini. So we deliver and implement digital solutions to a number of global clients. I've got two roles, actually. My primary role is that I help facilitate deliveries, so digitizing solutions. And my second role is that I'm also chair of the Race and Equality Network in the UK.

0:01:56.360 - 0:02:32.680
TAHIRA: That's great. Thank you both for joining us today.

So for today's conversation, really we want to draw upon concerns that people might have going into the workplace, but also in terms of the strengths, if we're talking about racial diversity, just kind of demystifying what experiences might be like where people can get support and how to really kind of draw on your strengths and what you have to offer an employer. So we'll start that off.

Aishah, I'm going to ask you first of all, because I think we'd be interested to know, did you consider equality, diversity, and inclusion when you were selecting universities?

0:02:32.680 - 0:03:15.080
AISHAH: Honestly, no. When considering which universities to apply to, thinking back to my undergraduate degree in particular, I was much more concerned with the academic standing and the reputation of the university over anything else, essentially.

So I was just looking at, is it a Russell Group institution?

What's the teaching and learning like? What are the graduate outcomes like? That's what I was mainly focused on. But having studied here, and studying education in particular, and also now working here, I'm so much more aware of how attitudes towards EDI play into the culture of universities and institutions and especially educational institutions.

And then from that, the different experiences that staff and students can have in education.

0:03:15.080 - 0:03:22.160
TAHIRA: Thank you. And I'm interested Tok, was that something that maybe you considered when you were looking for jobs, if you're looking back on your career?

0:03:22.160 - 0:04:47.880

TOK: Yeah, so I think I can give two lenses. I'm gonna reveal my age here. But back in 2004, when I graduated, nobody really spoke about diversity and inclusion. And there wasn't a lot of representation out there. And in terms of me choosing higher or further education, I have to admit, you know, it was something that didn't play into where I chose to go, what degree I did, et cetera.

But fast forward that to now, there's a lot of graduates and apprentices that come into the company that I work for. And in that initial taster or interview sessions, or just when you kind of see them at careers fairs and things like that, it does please me how much values and focus have changed. People are considering a lot more around racial equality. So it's nice to see that the future of our workforce is actually considering these things. I think there's elements of it where there's a lot more work still to do.

I think from a ethnic minority point of view, I'd probably say that there's less representation at the kind of leadership level, but you know, really, really good representation now in terms of the kind of graduates coming in.

0:04:47.880 - 0:05:15.080
TAHIRA: Yeah, and I think you raised some actually interesting points there about employers having to understand what the motivations are for people entering the workplace now.

I mean, maybe it was heightened after COVID and people kind of reflecting on what they were looking for. So I guess, what are your thoughts on that?

Do you feel that there has been a positive shift?

I mean, we'll dig into this a little bit deeper, but what would be your thoughts on that?

0:05:15.080 - 0:06:29.080
TOK: Yeah, absolutely.

So COVID definitely changed the dynamic of how we now work. Prior to that, we would be face-to-face all the time. Now, we've opened the doors up to remote working. So it's become a lot more accessible. And again, if I play back around what the future workforce want, that flexibility is probably one of the key things. However, one of the challenges I think generally people might have if they come from an ethnic minority background is that now that we're in this kind of hybrid working, some of the time you're given quite a lot of autonomy and you're a little bit isolated. So if there's less people of said ethnic minority representation in the company, it might be slightly harder to connect with them if you're remote. So I guess ways to mitigate that would be to try and increase engagement, create some kind of groups, et cetera, onboarding groups, that type of thing.

I think more companies should try to encourage that so that people don't get isolated.

0:06:29.080 - 0:07:34.560
AISHAH: I completely get what you're saying. And from conversations that I've had with other South Asian women, especially academics who work at the university, from what they've told me, it's kind of the belongingness and the sense of connectedness that they have with their colleagues is not quite the same after COVID and the lockdown. Not all academics and professional services staff come into the office all the time. It's just, you know, possibly when they're delivering events or delivering teaching, for example, but not even then, because we can also teach online now, like we do quite a bit. So yeah, I completely understand what you're saying.

And I think for me and my experiences, it's been important to be part of networks. So we have the BAME staff network, which is a Black Asian Minority Ethnic staff network. And we've got the Women at Manchester network as well. And I've been part of those networks since I first started working here after my undergrad and then came back after my master's. And I think that's really helped me to integrate within the wider community at the university. So yeah, definitely being part of the networks. I think for me, that's brought in that sense of connectedness that is not quite the same after COVID.

0:07:34.560 - 0:09:31.880
TOK: Oh, that's fantastic. And actually a lot of companies out there do this. They also have employee networks or they're referred to sometimes as employee resource groups. And one of the employee networks I chair at Capgemini UK is the Race and Equality Network. And I always say to people that diversity and inclusion found me, I didn't find it, because I've been with Capgemini for 12 years, but it's only in the last five years that I got involved in their diversity and inclusion initiatives. And it was one of those off the cuff, somebody sent me an email that went out to like a whole distribution list. And it said, oh, we're gonna create this network. And we'd already got a network called Outfront for LGBTQ+. We'd already got a women's network called Women at Capgemini.

So they were introducing a third one around race and equality, and it was a kind of call out, would you be interested, be part of the committee? And I just answered the call and thought, oh, actually, let me do this. And two, three years later down the line, I ended up being the chair of that network. And I guess it just unlocked this unknown passion of mine to bring people together, educate. So I can really relate to being part of something bigger and that something bigger is when you're going to create educational pieces for others.

And how do you increase allies? How do you have those shared experiences?
How do we learn off each other? All of that great stuff, right? And it all encompasses in those kind of networks or groups of people. So I'm really happy to find out that it's something that is also done at the university as well.

0:09:31.880 - 0:10:59.240
TAHIRA: I think you've both covered really what the sort of challenges are and for us, what kind of we're drawn to and what resonates. It really struck a chord with me when you said, I didn't go looking for inclusion work and that came to me. When I graduated and I'm oldest in the room, I found it a struggle to find work. And so I started volunteering and through volunteering, I learned how to put together detailed submissions, how to do research, how to do advocacy at tribunals. And I was lucky I won a few of those tribunals. I also then started to focus more on work in Manchester when asylum seekers were dispersed to the area.
And so it was more about campaign work. So I guess that then influenced my career in terms of advocacy and working with underrepresented groups and actually thinking, yes, this is maybe something that I've not really consciously been aware of, but it is certainly influencing my career path and my work and my values as I'm going forward.

And I think we've touched a little bit on the workplace and we've talked about needing a sense of community and belonging and where we can find that and the challenges of online. What I'd like to know is what other challenges did you anticipate when you were entering the workplace? Was there anything else that you were concerned about or actually caught you by surprise?

0:10:59.240 - 0:12:08.280
AISHAH: Yeah, so for me, I think it was adapting to professional culture and managing performance expectations, especially being a student for so many years. You kind of need to transition from that academic environment into a professional workplace. And that's a pretty significant culture shift. So graduates and people who are transitioning to the workplace for the first time kind of need to know how to navigate these situations and how to communicate with your manager as to what the expectations are. When can you receive feedback? How are you doing? How's your performance? I mean, personally for me and this current role that I'm in now, we have one-to-one meetings with our line managers. And I really, really value those because I know that in a busy workplace, it's quite difficult to get the attention of your manager at regular intervals. So I'd say going into those meetings with questions I want to ask and anything about a certain work that I've just handed in or upcoming projects I can get involved in, I think for me, that's a really big part of knowing how to navigate the workplace. I don't know about you.

0:12:08.280 - 0:12:37.960
TOK: Yeah, so I probably would say there's a lot of autonomy. And I think a lot of people struggle with that because you're really empowered to go away and find out about solutions and do some research, come back and create your points of view, that type of thing. And I think some people do struggle with that autonomy because no one's kind of checking where you are, what time, all of that type of thing.

0:12:37.960 - 0:12:50.540
TAHIRA: What would you have liked to have seen put in place as a new employee in the sector that you're in that you think would help ease a new employee into that environment?

0:12:50.540 - 0:13:30.700
TOK: I think we touched on it earlier around the employee groups. It just adds another layer of kind of comfort for those individuals to go away and find their place. Aisha mentioned about belonging and it's really important. It's such a powerful word because you want to belong, you want to find your place. So yeah, I think having those kind of cohorts or all those networks definitely does help. Also, the one-to-one coaching. You know, there's different words for coaching, right? Sometimes it can be like mentoring and there's

0:13:30.700 - 0:13:33.280
TAHIRA: Or a buddy system at work.

0:13:33.280 - 0:14:48.860
TOK: 100%, yeah. For people who are from an ethnically kind of diverse background, wouldn't it be a great idea to actually buddy them up with somebody who also identifies as an ethnic minority and maybe if they're a little bit further along in their career journey, that is something that they can look and see that these are the kind of steps that I took. Yeah, and you get that familiarization. And it's funny, right? Because now if I'm just playing that back for my own self, there's a couple of key role models that I've got in my company, but they happened very organically. So I never reached out to anybody. There wasn't an official mentoring platform or coaching system, but these were people that I just connected with in senior positions and they responded back and said, yeah, we can have a chat. And I still speak to them today. So after a few years, I've built up a really good relationship with them. And they've helped me on that career journey, right? Because I can see that representation around them being leaders.

0:14:48.860 - 0:15:53.300
AISHAH: I think it's the way you mentioned it was an organic process, really rings true for my experience as well, because being a student here, I made some really great connections that I've brought forward to now, like the start of my career. But interestingly, it's not always me reaching out to them. It's them reaching out to me and saying, oh, we've got this project going on. Do you wanna get involved? But it's always, and I'll be honest, it's always women and it's always South Asian women at the university. If you say to me, Aishah, we've got this project going on. I know you've got the skills for it. Do you wanna help out? This will be great on your CV. This will be a really great piece of research for you to do. I really value that because I know that sometimes there's less representation in certain fields and certain research fields at the university, that it's really nice that the women that are there want to bring more South Asian women into it and wanna enhance the diversity and representation. So it's kind of an organic way for me as well, but it's usually a nice pattern of people leaving the door open and then helping me get through.

0:15:53.300 - 0:18:06.940
TOK: But that's really good to hear, isn't it? That you've got those champions, recently in my company. And to be fair, a lot of companies have started doing this. They have something called reverse mentoring. This is really angled at allies. So what they're able to do is basically buddy up with somebody who identifies differently. So say you've got white male, mid thirties, and he's gonna get paired up by 25 year old British South Asian man. And what that does is that it instills a little bit of that shared experience. And we have to be really honest, right? Let's face it. If you're not of that background, right? You're not ever really gonna know. Just the same way that perhaps I wouldn't know how it would be to come out to your parents if you were gay or lesbian, yeah?

Where it was really powerful was that we had one of the leaders that came on to, you might be familiar with like an all hands call. So it's like an all company call, basically where you get updates about the company and all that. So we had quite a prominent leader and he'd gone through this reverse mentoring. And so what he did was he just played it back with the person who he did the reverse mentoring. And you could just see they'd built up this amazing connection. And obviously they were introduced via an application, right? It was like, you kind of got paired, but it was amazing to see. And it was really nice to hear from an allyship perspective, the leader had probably gone like 45 years of his life, not really knowing what it was like to be somebody who's not white. And so he was really honest about that and said, I had no idea that when said person goes to an airport, they might be treated slightly differently. And I didn't really know about some of those microaggressions. So it was really nice to see. So I guess coming back to your point, what you said earlier, that would be a really good recommendation, I think for all employers to have those educational pieces there.

0:18:06.940 - 0:20:07.240
TAHIRA: And I think it was just so great to listening to both of you to articulate that
because what struck out is a sense of belonging, finding within an organization, your people, be it allies, be it champions, people who use a sporting term, who's on your bench, who's gonna coach you, who's gonna kind of help you progress and move forward. And there is something powerful in mentoring and reverse mentoring so it isn't performative, so that it's not a deficit model. It's not like you're the one that needs to change or adapt to thrive in this place. It's actually, what can I learn from you? And sometimes when we run the mentoring program here, I've had a couple of colleagues at lower grade saying, well, do I have anything to offer? Can I put myself as a mentor? And I said, absolutely, because this is a thing. Everybody in the workplace has something to offer and some insight. And so it is really about thinking about what you want to go into mentoring for. So whether you're a mentor or a mentee and what people can learn from you and the insights. And like you say, it's about holding the door open and encouraging people. It's people kind of understanding again, beyond the performative, the reality. So if I go home from here, what is my reality? What is your reality? And how is that going to impact the day-to-day role, but also how's it going to benefit the organization? If we look at customer base, if we look at student base, knowledge about countries, languages, cultural awareness, there's a lot of positives that we can bring into these roles. So actually, as you say, I think employers are now realizing that and thinking, these are more things that we can do. And networks also allow you to do that, make those connections and find those allies. And again, Aishah what's happened to you will probably forever stay with you as you're progressing in your career, wanting to help others and open the door.

0:20:07.240 - 0:20:28.640
AISHAH: Yeah, absolutely. I feel like it's just a really good role model for me of how you should behave. And I mean, you can support anyone regardless of their background, but I feel like when you get that support from someone who comes from a similar background and perhaps knows some of the struggles and challenges that you've experienced, it just leaves something with you definitely for the future.

0:20:28.640 - 0:20:50.580
TAHIRA: And again, there's other skills there that people do value, it's human connections, isn't it? And it's empathy and it's understanding of different experiences. And so I've always found mentoring to be hugely rewarding and humbling. And I think that's the joy of it is that, you know, you can make an impact, but you can very much leave that process being impacted.

0:20:50.580 - 0:21:53.160
TOK: Yeah, and you mentioned something around awareness. So cultural awareness is hugely impactful, right? Especially in the future workforce. And we're seeing this trend already in that many organizations are now global, including mine. So I can be on a call with somebody from South America in the morning and then be on a call with European Indian colleagues in the afternoon. So the workforce has changed. So I think what that has then propelled is even more so the need for us all to be really aware and educate ourselves about other people's cultures because we need to be aware around, you know, if there are other festivals that we're not familiar with, also there's certain practices, people's religions and all that stuff that's encompassed in that. Definitely we need to make sure that we are becoming a lot more cultural.

0:21:53.160 - 0:22:58.440
TAHIRA: I think you've moved us on nicely in terms of some of the concerns, certainly from feedback that we've had from students around things like witnessing discrimination. It's about employers or colleagues lacking cultural awareness or really not trying to take the time to find out about people's different cultural practices. Maybe even things like pointing out accents and differences or for events, for example, not considering that people, for example, may want kosher food, halal food, even things like non-alcoholic, which typically people associate with a particular faith, but you may be on medication, you may just not drink at all. There may be various reasons why you don't drink. And so I think, I guess really going on from that, if people are unfortunately experiencing some of these things, what can they do to find out about their rights and what do you think employers are doing to try to be, from what you have seen or heard, to try to be that bit more inclusive?

0:22:58.440 - 0:24:05.989
TOK: Yeah, so there's a couple of things. There's obviously the Equality Act of 2010. So there's that from a legal perspective, but what you've noticed, again, it's been in the last five, six years, a lot of companies now also have a separate EDI policy. They have various words for them, but they are of a kind of similar nature. And basically what those policies are doing is that they're making sure that we are working towards that inclusive environment. So just as some of the stuff that we've mentioned around making sure that people have the accessibility, that type of thing, also in terms of the kind of training as well. So lots of companies do diversity training as part of their onboarding. And I don't like to use this word because it's one of those words that makes you think that, you know, you're gonna have to do it, but like, it's pretty much mandatory, right? It's part of, it's kind of-

0:24:05.989 - 0:24:23.600
TAHIRA: We do that here at Manchester. So we, if anybody's involved in the recruitment process, they have to do a couple of very specific EDI training courses before. So it's interesting you say that, and maybe you can build a little bit more on what you've seen in terms of changing recruitment practices.

0:24:23.600 – 0:25:17.040
TOK: Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of the method, so I've recruited probably around 70 people in the last kind of couple of years. And again, the kind of policies used for that is the blind policy, right? Where you don't see the person's name, you don't see their age, you don't see what ethnic background they are. So that is something that a lot of companies now do to make sure that everyone's got that equal playing field. And it's removing any subconscious thoughts or any kind of microaggressions that you might personally have, that layer is being removed. So it's definitely encouraging to kind of see those policies and those initiatives, particularly from a recruitment perspective, being instilled.

0:25:17.040 - 0:25:22.160
TAHIRA: Being instilled. And Aishah, I'd be interested to know a little bit more about your experiences.

0:25:22.160 - 0:26:35.440
AISHAH: I think from the experience of a fresh grad and someone who's just starting off in their career, I think it's important that words like belonging, diversity, inclusion, accessibility, et cetera, they're not buzzwords. Because especially graduates from the University of Manchester and Manchester having social responsibility is like a core element of what we do. The graduates here are very aware of what's going on in the local community, nationally, internationally. And the rise of these words, which can be buzzwords sometimes, has just been like meteorotic. They've just grown and grown over the years. So definitely trying to see whether it's performative when you're going into a new workplace, especially that was something for me because I was a bit like, are they actually standing true to what they say they believe in as an institution? And I know that being part of the BAME staff network, we talk a lot about recruitment, especially at the moment.

We've got this new inclusive recruitment initiative. And I know Tahira, you've just been working on this. It's an ongoing process. And is it you've got some new ambassadors for that.

0:26:35.440 - 0:27:26.000
TAHIRA: So, I mean, it's something that's been set up as a pilot project. So what we're looking at is having recruitment ambassadors sit in on interview panels and then to feedback and question the panel after about the process and if there was anything in terms of how that was undertaken. Now it is a pilot, but I think it will hopefully give us insights. And we've had a lot of positive engagement from people from all grades, and all backgrounds that are really interested in this. And I think you're right. It's because we do say at Manchester, we've had the EDI directorate has been set up three years, but very separate from what used to be HR People and OD. And so our strategy has been around inclusiveness and belonging. So absolutely, yeah.

0:27:26.000 - 0:27:37.680
AISHAH: I'm quite interested to know though, perhaps what you and your team are doing about people who aren't engaged with this new process that you've got going on and perhaps are not engaged in being an inclusive recruitment ambassador.

0:27:37.680 - 0:29:51.960
TAHIRA: I think that's a great question. And again, Tok, you may want to come in on this. From our perspective, it is a case of we are doing something. We're fully aware that not everybody will be on board. And I think from an employer's perspective, you will see initiatives come out. And so people will either be curious and think, yes, okay, I'm going to give this a go, give it a try. But then you will have people that are still bruised by experiences, prior experiences. And for them, this might just be another thing, another initiative. I think for us, it's to keep those lines of communications open and to be transparent. So it's a case of those that are willing to take them with us, but those that are cynical. For us to keep that dialogue open. Yes, it may lead to uncomfortable conversations. It may be leads to where we're sort of challenging, but I think that's the key is I wouldn't be able to do my job well if I wasn't having that full broadness of conversations and feedback. I would say that this is something new
and it's been about a year in the research and the background work. So it is a pilot that we are trying with one professional service area. And so we know it's gonna be subject to change. We will look at it. It will be formally reviewed and we will look at everybody that's been involved in terms of did it make a difference?
What was impactful? What worked? What didn't land? What do we need to change?

So I think that's a very good question because there will always be people when you're joining an organization that will be like, this is great, this is wonderful. And unfortunately, there will be people that don't share those views. But I really think it's important not to negate or to diminish anyone's experience, positive or negative. For me, it is really about continuing that conversation and explaining why we're doing what we're doing. And I think that's one of the ways we're talking about is how employers can work to really embed EDI because we're fully prepared for a comeback if people said that didn't actually work out. And then we'll say, yes. Or actually,we were surprised at how well that did because it held people to account.

0:29:51.960 - 0:30:06.840
AISHAH: Yeah, I agree with that. And I also think that's where allyship really comes in. I know Tok you mentioned it earlier. And I think that we're not gonna progress anywhere if we don't have allyship between all the different groups that we've got in society and especially at the university.

0:30:06.840 - 0:30:18.720
TAHIRA: Including the staff network. So I think you've raised Aishah an important point. And Tok, I'd be interested to know what your answer to the previous question, but also is there allyship between the networks?

0:30:18.720 - 0:32:50.720
TOK: Yeah, so no, two really good questions. So I think on the first point, look, we're all on the learning journey, right? And I think it's absolutely imperative that yes, you have all the positive feedback and you incorporate that into your next iteration of what you're trying to achieve. But absolutely, you need to have all the challenging feedback as well. And too many times, I think what happens is that there's like a terminology called happy path, yeah? And I think a lot of the time, people only ever want the happy path and the happy path feedback. But actually, it's the challenging feedback that makes you sit back and look at something from another perspective. Just recently, somebody pointed out to me, there was a document that we had about the networks and it kind of mentioned, so we've got some sub-networks that are essentially around different faith groups. And then somebody pointed out that actually, this document looks like It's just about faith networks and nothing else and because I have been doing it for quite a while I wasn't able to see that right, and as soon as they pointed it out I thought actually they're 100% right. It's not actually giving them the information required. So it's going back to I guess Aishah you were saying around EDI policies, having that visibility, if we look at employer websites, really good to have all that stuff on a website etc.. but you need to make sure that you've got some tangible outcomes there as well yeah, it's nice to have the starter for 10 as a conversation but I would encourage all employers to give some examples of how you have made changes to your workplace and the impact they've had and what's really amazing is that when you actually have that direct feedback as well so quotes and things like that and you can do them anonymously or you can use different names if people don't want to have their own name on there and stuff like that so there's ways round it. But I think it's really powerful when you have your policies etc.. that backed up by some kind of tangible quotes etc..

0:32:50.720 - 0:34:20.520
TAHIRA: I think you're right. It's really important that employees know when they're entering the workplace the avenues where they can communicate and they can feedback and where they can find their communities to support and to feedback on their experiences, so I think that's really important, because sometimes people can be cynical about feedback but it's really powerful in terms of helping on organisation to move forward. Some of the things that I think you're alluding to is also about how transparent we are about our intentions, our progress, our challenges and and we try and do that with our chartermarks, so we have a couple of key chartermarks, Athena Swan for gender equity and the Race Equality charter for race equity in the workplace. We've got the Disability Confident Leader, Stonewall but we also do things like pay gap reports so we have the ethnicity, gender, sexuality, disability pay gap reports, we do the EDI information report so there is a lot there that we try and sort of say this who we are as a community in all its forms but again that allows people to see where gaps are and it allows people to see what we've done and what we still need to do. So when we are talking about that I think just final thoughts, what do you think employers can do to improve inclusivity? Even going forward if we're thinking about the future world of work its a big question but Aishah I'm going to come to you first on closing thoughts.

0:34:20.520 - 0:35:07.540
AISHAH: It's a very big question. Erm, I think importantly communicating your commitment first of all. Because if you don't explicitly state why your invested in it, why you're invested in EDI it's never going to happen you're never going to translate policy into practice. and then I think it's about creating a culture in which people are going to thrive and it's enabling equity across the board for everybody to thrive not just certain individuals or certain groups. So I know that's a very broad response but I think just starting off with intentions and often that can mean looking back to the past and acknowledging where there were failures because I don't think there's going to be any progress in the future unless you understand where things went wrong previously.

0:35:07.540 - 0:35:13.760
TAHIRA: I think that's a very astute answer, thank you very much.

Tok, any final thoughts on this?

0:35:13.760 - 0:36:18.800
TOK: So I think the openness is something definitely that all employers need to be and you've mentioned Tahira, a few initiatives, charters etc.. so, it's exactly the same in the workforce as well. So there is a race at work charter that many companies sign and as Aishah was saying what that allows prospective employees to do is actually see where a company were, where they want to be in the future. So all these kind of tools, are out there and I think it's really important for employers to be absolutely transparent for future employees to see where they are, where they want to get to and we mentioned authenticity before and what gives me hope is that there are graduates that come into the company and their kind of values are about being included.

0:36:18.800 - 0:36:23.909
TAHIRA: Do you feel hopeful because it's more on the agenda now. Is that what gives you hope?

0:36:23.909 - 0:37:24.305
TOK: 100%, yes. It just means that because peoples values have kind of changed
it's really important then for companies to be transparent about that. And the other thing is that we mentioned authenticity, authenticity happens when you're transparent and actually, day to day in the role that I do, so when I'm with clients implementing solutions, the main successes have been when you've been completely transparent with the client, yeah, because that's what people want and if there are challenges or you see obstacles, you point them out straight away and I think people will respect that right, so you can just apply that lens from a workforce perspective, from a prospective employee who is looking on a website wants to see that transparency, it's all about truth and when you have trust you build those connections that you were talking about.

0:37:24.305 - 0:38:42.840
TAHIRA: That's it. thank you both very much, that was very very insightful. I think what gives me hope actually is hearing you Aishah and hearing you Tok because it seems that this is very much on the agenda that it matters and employers are recognising what is a motivator for people to apply to them and culture is a very big part of that,
that sense of belonging. So I think if you're going new into the workplace as a graduate
there is something powerful in realising what you have to offer but also that it can be quite daunting so find your allies, find your staff network's, you know enquire about mentors, buddy systems coaching, get familiar with the organisation so in your contract or know what the Equality Act means for you and the key services, so whether it's EDI or staff resources, staff networks anything along those lines that will really help you feel a sense of community but allow you to feedback and find out about feedback channels, if there's anything that you want the organisation to know and also that sense of continue that ally ship and mentoring as you're progressing through your career open the door for others and support them as you were in your career. So thank you both very much, thank you Aishah and thank you Tok.

0:38:42.840 - 0:38:43.506
TOK: Thank you so much.

0:38:43.506 - 0:38:44.680
AISHAH: Thank you, it's been a pleasure