Call 'Em Like Museum with Eric Johnson | Hauntings, astronauts, and warplanes on the USS Hornet (with Laura Fies)

"I consider ghost stories the clickbait of history," says Laura Fies, Executive Director of the USS Hornet Museum. While supernatural tales are a fun thrill for visitors, they also serve as a powerful accessory to historical education.

"We will teach them history... We'll inject it somehow and they'll walk away knowing something more," Laura explains. "And if we have to wrap it into a ghost story, so be it."

As a premier destination for history buffs, tourists, and paranormal investigators alike, the USS Hornet offers something for everybody: Spooky supernatural tours, massive military aircraft, carefully preserved World War II uniforms, and fascinating wartime artifacts—including the crew's original recipe for baking 7,000 donuts at sea.

Today on Call 'Em Like Museum, Laura discusses the unique challenges of running a “midsize museum in a big museum body.” She explains how the Hornet’s exhibits successfully put visitors into the mindset of ordinary enlisted men during World War II, and highlights the crucial role the legendary ship played in recovering astronauts during the Apollo 11 and 12 space missions.

Full transcript of this episode

Subscribe to the newsletter

This episode was hosted, produced, and edited by Eric Johnson from LightningPod

Chapters

(00:00) - Introduction
(04:49) - Boarding the USS Hornet Museum
(08:55) - The Apollo 11 mobile quarantine facility
(11:00) - Daily life for a WWII sailor
(15:10) - Why the USS Hornet is considered haunted
(24:16) - Maintaining an 894-foot aircraft carrier
(34:39) - Operating the museum without federal funding
(41:11) - Baking 7,000 donuts during battle stations
(44:38) - Stealing ideas from other museums

Music: www.purple-planet.com

Images:
Museum of Ice Cream
Exploratorium
Charles Schulz Museum
NASA Snoopy Poster

Creators and Guests

Host

Eric Johnson

Podcast editor, producer, and consultant at LightningPod.fm | Working with entrepreneurs, journalists, businesses, and more to achieve their podcasting goals

What is Call 'Em Like Museum with Eric Johnson?

Call 'Em Like Museum is a weekly podcast exploring how museums really work, and why we love them. Host Eric Johnson talks with museum directors, curators, experts, and passionate fans about what drives them, from homegrown passion projects to world-famous institutions. Each episode digs into museum curation, exhibit design, and the visitor experience — plus the essential question: What's actually worth buying in the gift shop? Season One spotlights museums in the San Francisco Bay Area, including the Walt Disney Family Museum, the de Young Museum, and the Winchester Mystery House.

It's almost Halloween,
so here's a spooky story.

It takes place on the USS Hornet,
an American aircraft carrier that

was built during World War II.

The story starts on the fantail,
in the back of the carrier.

It's a quiet night and four soldiers
are out there, getting some fresh air.

It was the evening, they
were just relaxing, they're

done with their training.

And then one of them just stands
up and silently goes back inside.

And his three friends follow him and
they watch as he goes downstairs,

down one hatch and they follow him.

And the passageways are dark.

It's not lit. There's no reason
that the lights would be on.

And they finally find him in front of
sickbay and he is sitting on the bench,

the waiting area, and he's crying.

So one of them gets up the nerve to go
and sit down beside him and goes like,

"Hey buddy, what's up?" And apparently
he comes back to himself and he does

not remember how he got down there.

This man just blind-walked down
to sickbay and took a seat.

Was he just stressed or was he possessed?

This is just one of many, many ghost
stories associated with the USS Hornet.

Sailors and pilots who walk through
walls, smells and sounds that can't

be explained, tables and lockers
that seem to move on their own.

Hornet's nickname is The Grey
Ghost, so that already evokes

a certain cryptic-ness to it.

People started telling stories from day
one when they started chipping paint

after it being 30 years abandoned.

That's Laura Fies, the executive
director of the USS Hornet Museum.

Or, if you prefer its full name…

The USS Hornet Sea, Air, and Space
Museum because we touch sea, air, and

space in our history and what we teach.

Most of the year, Laura's job is to
talk about the Hornet's deployments

during World War II or the vital role it
played in the Apollo 11 and 12 missions.

But every Halloween or whenever a
ghost-hunting TV show comes calling,

everything gets a little spookier.

The joke on the ship is the ghosts
are good, the ship wants to kill you.

This is Call 'Em Like Museum,
a podcast about how museums

work and why we love them.

I'm Eric Johnson.

Today on the podcast, do ghost
stories belong at a history museum?

How do you maintain an aircraft
carrier without federal funding?

And how much flour do you need
if you want to make 7,000 donuts?

We'll talk about all of that and
more with Laura Fies from the

USS Hornet, right after this.

This episode is sponsored
by Transistor.fm.

If you are starting a podcast,
then you should use Transistor.

Upload your audio or video and
they'll publish your episodes to

Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube,
Pocket Casts, Overcast, and more.

Go to transistor.fm for
a 14-day free trial.

Have you ever left a museum
without hitting the gift shop?

Yeah, me neither.

Tote bags, hats, desk toys,
oddly specific magnets.

I love it all.

And now I'm giving some of it away in the
Call 'Em Like Museum Gift Shop Giveaway.

To enter, all you have to do is sign up
for our free newsletter at likemuseum.com.

That's likemuseum.com.

What does the word "museum" mean to you?

What do museums just
mean to you generally?

It's hard to define, and
that's kind of by intention.

It's kind of like the word
"art." It's like, what is art?

If you have to ask, it's already art.

That's the thing.

I went to graduate school and
we did have this conversation.

What is a museum?

Can we judge what's a museum?

If the Ice Cream Museum calls that
a museum, can they not be a museum?

Does it take artifact collection?

Not necessarily.

Does it take things?

Physical, tangible things?

Not really.

You could have a museum of ideas.

So it's really kind of a third
place where people can gather,

have conversations, look inside
themselves, learn more about the world.

It's a very broad term.

Zoos, aquariums?

Also museums.

All kinds of museums exist in this world.

That's so interesting.

When I was starting this podcast,
I was thinking, should I be talking

to zoos and aquariums as well?

And I was like, maybe season two.

And what's your first
memory of going to a museum?

My parents took my sister and I to
a lot of museums, so I'm not sure

if I could choose a first memory.

We grew up in Santa Rosa, but
we definitely came down to

the San Francisco area a lot.

So I have childhood memories of
the Exploratorium, I think the Bay

Area Discovery Museum on the north
side of the Golden Gate Bridge.

That's a kids' museum, so I think we
were wee little when we went to that one.

And some of the more local ones,
there's half a dozen in Santa Rosa

alone that I'm sure we got pulled into.

Was the Charles Schultz Museum
open when you were kids?

It was not.

I actually did some volunteer work
there as a 18-, 19-year-old, but

it was not there when we were kids.

We would've definitely gone.

So a lot of the museums that
I am profiling on the podcast,

they are on the smaller side.

They're focused on very specific
topics like one person or one general

idea like the history of pinball.

But your museum is huge, both
physically and also in the scope of the

stories that you are trying to tell.

I was wondering if you could first lay
out for folks who haven't been, it's

what, 900 feet long, something like that?

Just under, yeah.

So I very much consider ourselves,
I describe it as a midsize

museum in a big museum body.

Yes.

Because we have 23
full-time-equivalent staff, which

puts us solidly in the middle.

There's many more museums in the
world with only one staff or no

staff and all volunteers versus the
ones you'd probably think of that

have 300, 400 staff members in it.

We have 23 full-time equivalents,
and yes, the building though, the

facility, the ship — which is our
primary artifact and houses the entire

museum — is just under 900 feet long.

It's like 894 feet.

If you put us on our end, we
would actually be slightly taller

than the Transamerica building
on the San Francisco skyline.

And also just even getting
into the museum is unusual.

Could you describe for people … We
don't have time to mind palace our way

through the whole aircraft carrier.

I'm good for it.

I know you could.

I believe you could, but just could
you describe the experience for

a visitor of entering the museum
and then what do people see and

hear when they first come in?

Sure.

So to kind of start the intro
of this discussion, museum

ship is a niche museum field.

That said, there are over 300 museum
ships in the United States, but in

my mind, I put it in the historic
house/historic fort territory.

What makes them so special is that they
are how they were when they were in use.

So that starts with entry.

In many museum ships' case, and including
ours, you board the ship using the

gangway, the original ship's gangways.

And it's a stairs and then you
go up a ramp — a fairly steep

ramp — and you get onto the ship
and you board it the same way.

We actually have our guest entrance
where the officers would've come

on board, the quarterdeck, and
that's where our admissions desk is.

And then you're introduced to a
big cavernous hangar deck, which

would've been essentially the
parking garage for our planes.

And when you get in there, could
you explain for folks as they

look left and right, what are
they seeing in that hangar deck?

Our collection includes about 15
historic aircraft and the majority of

them are in the hangar deck because
outside is rougher on them so we try

to keep as many indoors as possible.

So when you come in, first of all, you'll
see the ship's bell, big brass bell,

and that's the original ship's bell.

They all had them.

It's very loud when it rings.

We try to not let people
do it all the time.

It would be noisy.

But once you pay admission, we actually
lead you right past one of our bomb

elevators where we have a nuclear
shape, which would've been in Hornet's

collection when she was operational.

If you looked above the bomb elevator, we
have our scoreboard during World War II.

Hornet served in 59 active combat
missions in the Pacific theater

and shot down 1,400 enemy aircraft.

And we had a literal scoreboard,
and the one we have on display

is a replica, but it's accurate.

So the scoreboard is … They would've
been updating that during the war

as they took down more enemy ships.

The lads would've had it painted on a
wall and they would've been … It's

somewhere between a morale boost
and just literally keeping count.

And then you have our safety orientation.

So we make sure to give you a little — not
you when you visited because you got

the straightaway, but most people — most
people get the little safety intro

because we are both a national and
state historic landmark and we actually

cannot change the way the ship is built.

We can't put normal stairs in.

We have ladders, which are called ladders
because they're such steep stairs.

So we warn people about that.

We say, "Hey, watch your hands, feet. Just
be careful." And generally people are.

And then we say, "If you hear this
claxon sound, that's our emergency

alarm, head up," and things like that.

But also introduce people to the
concept of we have extra tours.

So you are free to self-explore a lot
of the space, three of our main decks.

But if you want to go up to the
captain's bridge or down to the engine

room, we have that tour available.

One of our docents can lead you down
because it's a little harder to get to.

Right.

And as I recall, so the scoreboard
is to the right as you enter and then

to the left, that's where you have
some of your space-related exhibits.

You have, was it the training
capsule for recovering the astronauts

from Apollo 11 and Apollo 12?

And is that also where the Airstream,
the quarantine Airstream, is, right?

Yeah.

We placed our space exhibit where
it is because that was the historic

location where the mobile quarantine
facility was placed by NASA.

So NASA had Airstream build six
trailers for the Apollo mission.

We have one of the six in our collection.

They were essentially airtight because
they were worried about moon germs.

They genuinely didn't know and you
don't want to destroy the world

with pathogens from the moon,
of course, best to be avoided.

And also President Nixon was
going to be on the aircraft

carrier when astronauts returned.

He was, he was.

So they were just like, we don't want to
get the president sick with a moon virus.

It's a bad look.

That's why the trailer is [there]
, and then we kind of built the

rest of the exhibit around it.

So we do have AS202,
that's the lunar module.

That one of course is representative
of the Apollo 11 and Apollo 12

capsules that Hornet plucked out of
the water, but it's also, we have

a personal relationship with it.

We actually picked up that
very one during training.

That is actually on loan to us from
the Smithsonian and we take good care

of it and are thrilled to have it.

And then next to that we have a Sea
King helicopter, and it's representative

of the one that would've picked
up the actual Apollo capsules.

The one that did sunk during training,
so it's no longer available to us,

but it is the same type of helicopter.

We painted it to look like Helicopter
66 that did do the picking up.

And it is also positioned as best we
can based on photos of where it would've

been when the astronauts were let off
of it and then straight into the back

of the mobile quarantine facility.

Right.

And is that where you have
the footprints painted?

Yes?

Explain the footprints.

So we have white footprints painted
on the deck, and the little claim

to fame, the little label on them is
"astronauts' first steps back on Earth."

When we took our tour, I was like, "Is
this really on 'earth'?" I mean, they're

on the ship, but I think it counts.

I think it counts.

Is metal not a form of earth?

Steel, dirt, same thing.

Touché.

You got me there.

One thing I really was impressed
by when you gave me a tour of the

Hornet was we went, I guess you
would call it below decks, right?

We went below decks and I was really
impressed by the way the museum

evokes the feeling of being a service
member, of what it's like to live

and to work when you're deployed for,
what was it, 15 months at a time?

World War II, I believe, it was 16
months straight without touching port.

They were busy.

Yeah.

So could you talk about how you thought
about designing the exhibits down there

in order to evoke these feelings and in
order to most effectively tell that story?

Sure.

So it is something we're
always considering.

We definitely want to give people
the feeling that they are there

while the sailors are there.

That's what we really want
to get toward and get to.

And to do that, we have to
show the space as it was.

In the same vein, it's a very large space.

So we do break up what we call the
restored spaces that we try to outfit

with all the supplies and all the items
that they would've had back when they

were in use and show it as it was.

We do have a few museum-style galleries
and it does break up the space.

There's something called museum
fatigue, which is real, and Hornet

evokes it very quickly because it's
a lot of sea foam green and a lot of

cream walls and doors on the ceiling.

So to kind of break up the built
monotony, we introduce just

concepts of history, background.

So we talk about, let's talk
about women in the military.

Let's talk about Bay Area
at war during World War II.

Let's explain some of the background
of why Hornet's here, what it was doing

during its service between 1943 and
1970, because this is also information

that people probably or might not
or might come in with knowledge of.

And if they don't, that's fine.

We're here to introduce them to it.

Yeah.

Well, I think at least in my experience,
when I learned about the wars that America

had been involved in, when I generally
learned military history, I think a lot

of it focuses on battles and generals and
ships and vehicles and things like that.

I think there's relatively little, at
least in the kind of casual, popular

discourse, relatively little discussion
of just the day-to-day experience

of serving on a ship like this.

And that includes things like the fact
that there's a bakery and there's little

shops and there's all these minutiae
which really brought history alive,

I think, in the way you presented it.

Yeah.

To me, history is about people,
and people have been people

for tens of thousands of years.

And certainly that was
true for even World War II.

And it was… I say "fellas" because
it was 100% men who served on the

ship, but if you did the math of
59 combat missions over 16 months,

it wasn't exactly this balance, but
that's like one battle every two weeks.

And in the meantime, you're
stressed, you're bored, you're

bored and stressed at the same time.

Your bosses are trying to
keep you busy and entertained.

So yeah, we did have hobby shops
that included model kits and paint

by number, and we had a library
and sports clubs and bands.

So it really was a city at sea.

And I think that by telling that story,
people when they come on board, no matter

how old they are, what their background
is, they can envision themselves in this

situation because we're talking about
what they ate, what they did during their

day, what their actual work entailed.

And you're like, oh, I could
see myself in this situation.

Maybe it's not always pleasant
or I couldn't do this, but

you could see yourself in it.

And having that tangibility, I think,
is how people learn all the better.

Just imagining myself in that
situation, I would get lost

every single day in that ship.

It's interesting actually.

I've talked to people who served
on Hornet itself, but also other

people, they didn't explore much.

So they knew where they worked, where they
slept, and where they ate, and they were

not encouraged to really go other places.

I mean, there were some leisure spaces
that they could go into, but you can

see so much more as a Hornet Museum
visitor than probably the sailors

were able to just because you would
have the freedom of movement to do so.

So before I came in for this, I
was looking up other podcasts that

have mentioned the USS Hornet.

And there was a great one from the Air and
Space Museum, there were a couple World

War II history podcasts, but almost every
single one that I found was about ghosts.

We've got to talk about this.

I think maybe there's not room
in your longer museum title

to also include and ghosts.

And haunted.

Some people call it the most
haunted ship in America.

I'll accept it.

Yeah, yeah.

You'll take that?

I'll take that.

Could you explain how did this start?

How did the Hornet acquire a
reputation for being haunted?

Oh gosh.

I mean, what ship doesn't have its
ghost stories, but Hornet's nickname is

The Gray Ghost, so that already evokes
a certain little crypticness to it.

People started telling stories
from day one when they started

chipping paint after being 30 years
abandoned in Bremerton, Washington.

This was one of my questions.

So they weren't telling the ghost
stories when they were on the ship.

This was after the ship
was decommissioned.

It was sitting kind of abandoned
for many decades, and then the

ghost stories came out later then.

I have heard stories from
both eras, to be fair.

But the ones, of course, that
would've been left over from the

operational days are few and far
between because we don't have that

many sailors to retell those tales.

That said, Hornet was actually
fantastically lucky during World

War II, and that was the main
active combat situation it was in.

Over 200 people died, I believe.

Many of those pilots, many of those
just accidents happening on ship because

it's a very dangerous place to work.

But in terms of battle damage,
Hornet did not receive much.

So, I mean, 200 ghosts is
probably more than enough.

You don't need more than that.

But yeah, we have stories of … A lot
of stories came out of the restoration

period when they were building
it back up to be habitable again.

We collected some, actually, when I was
working in the overnight program, we

hosted a group of U.S. Army reservists
and they stayed for actually two weeks.

It was a training thing.

And oh gosh, they came to me every
morning with some stories and I'm

like, "I'm just collecting them."
I'm just like, "Here we go."

What sort of stories?

You got to give us a taste of this.

Okay.

So the most impressive one, I'll just give
you the best one that I got from that.

So we have a place on the main
deck level called the fantail.

Imagine just a back porch, if
you will, looking at the San

Francisco skyline, it's exterior.

And there were four Army guys,
soldiers, hanging out there.

It was evening, there was relaxing,
they're done with their training.

And then one of them just stands up and
silently goes back inside and his three

friends follow him and they watch as he
goes downstairs, down one hatch, and they

follow him and the passageways are dark.

It's not lit. There's no reason that
the lights would be on, but he's walking

just through the dark, in the dark.

It's cave dark down there, by the way.

There's no windows.

And they finally find him in front of
the sick bay and he is sitting on the

bench, the waiting area, and he's crying.

So one of them gets up the nerve to go
and sit down beside him and goes like,

"Hey buddy, what's up?" And apparently
he comes back to himself and he does

not remember how he got down there.

So perhaps a case of mild
possession, who knows?

But this man just blind walked
down to sick bay and took a seat.

So there's one story for you.

Yeah.

So you've had a lot of TV shows
that have come in and they've

filmed on the Hornet, right?

Right.

And as we said, podcasts that have come
in and have examined its spookiness.

But I'm wondering, how do
you as the museum, how do you

engage with this reputation?

Do you welcome this sort of attention?

We do.

I personally, I kind of enjoy the
camp of it, I've got to admit,

I think ghost stories are fun.

I consider ghost stories
the clickbait of history.

[laugh]

They're going to learn history.

We will teach them history
during this ghost story.

We'll inject it somehow and they'll
walk away knowing something more.

And if we have to wrap it
into a ghost story, so be it.

A little bit of dark spooks and
you're going to learn about the

typhoon in 1945, gosh darn it.

That's a great way of thinking about it.

I never thought of it this way, is that
if you are interested in supernatural

stories, things like this, it's
just kind of a backdoor to history.

It's a gateway drug.

We'll teach you.

You're going to learn.

You are talking about stuff that may
or may not have happened in the past.

Exactly.

It always involves a past, whether
it's a medieval king or, in

this case, World War II sailors.

So are the reputed ghosts of the Hornet,
are they supposed to be service members or

—
Predominantly, yeah.

And they're supposed to be … The
joke on the ship is: The ghosts are

good, the ship wants to kill you.

[laugh]

The ghosts are good, the
ship wants to kill you.

Yes.

And you regularly host tours
where people can stay overnight in

the ship that wants to kill you.

Yeah, yeah.

No, that's why we do the safety video.

[laugh]

Got to teach everyone her tricks
so they can watch out for them.

Many of our visitors, we have
about 15,000 students come

through our doors every year.

Not all of them are overnight kiddos,
but our Live-Aboard Overnight Program

is one of the quintessential programs
of our education, and it's great.

They get to live … Experience
a night like a sailor.

So we have 700 beds available at any
one time, which is but a mere fraction

of the 3,500 that would've been there
originally, but we maintain 700 of them.

We do not have 700 kids at once, but
that's just how many beds we got.

So we have them come aboard.

It's like 5 or 6 PM.

We serve them dinner down
in the enlisted mess.

They ate where the crew ate.

We give them a nice two- or three-hour
tour of key locations on the ship.

They see the ship's wheel, captain's
bridge, engine spaces, catapult rooms.

We teach them about STEM, we teach
them about history, and then we

sometimes tell them little ghost
stories, which keeps them in bed.

[laugh]

And then they wake up and then we
give them breakfast and out you go.

Thanks for playing.

But we also have History Mystery, that's
our spooky tours, and that could be

either just evening or overnight flavored.

So you could pick your poison on that one.

You'll hear ghost stories
either way for that one.

Exactly.

You've mentioned a couple
of different groups there.

Can you talk about the type of
visitors that come to the Hornet?

Who typically is there?

And also if you could speak to the folks
who have worked on the ship in terms

of volunteering and docents and all the
people who you would find on the Hornet.

Yeah.

So the main bread-and-butter demographic
is probably what people would expect

— your older male really into World
War II — but we also have a lot of

families and I think it's just because
it's a fun place to be and spend time.

And so our education program
specifically, we do K through 12

education, but fourth grade is the center
point of our education programming.

So you'll see a lot of
10-year-olds running around.

A lot of young families.

Our membership levels include specific
ones geared towards if you have

two kids, if you have four grown
adults in your family, we try to

be very inclusive of welcoming all
family units that one can envision.

We do have a lot of programs that
we intentionally build to try

to attract younger audiences.

So whether that's our convention — our
Comic-Con-style convention — or

our Halloween party, we have a
New Year's Eve swing dance that

honestly pulls from all demographics.

And then our volunteer groups, we
have six–seven different volunteer

divisions, and there's a lot of
high schoolers who are into aircraft

restoration, I'll say that much.

We have one aircraft up on our flight deck
right now that was done entirely [with

adult supervision] by a high school group.

That was actually a really cool
opportunity to see them at work.

It was one of the Veterans Day [events]
. We had Admiral Dwyer, who was an unretired

admiral at the time, since retired,
but he came to the ship and he spent

some time with them on that aircraft.

With the group of high schoolers?

With the group of high schoolers and
climbed up there with them and they

were just so excited and he was such
a gem, just kind of letting them tell

him all that they did and pointing to
things in the cockpit and on the wings.

That was just a great opportunity,
and where else can you get that?

How much of the work on the Hornet
is maintenance and things like that,

or related to restoring aircraft?

I assume that a lot of the large
machinery you have on the ship

must require a lot of attention.

You might've heard boats are expensive.

Yes.

Hornet's an aircraft carrier, so
pretty much everything we have

goes into maintaining the old girl.

She's sturdy, though, but
she needs a lot of love.

She currently needs a
paint job, but she's big.

But we take care of it as well as we can.

We do have almost about 300 volunteers.

They outnumber us 10 to one, which is
awesome because they do so much good work

for us, volunteering their time to do so.

But if anyone here, everyone listening,
ever wants to zen out to chipping some

paint, we have a job for you, just saying.

It's a never-ending task.

It's Sisyphean.

You could start on one end … It's
the Golden Gate Bridge but without the

Golden Gate Bridge paint bucket money.

[laugh] Exactly.

There's always something to do.

But one of the things we are so
proud about is that we do have

such a strong working collection.

Every piece of Hornet that
we can keep using, we do.

Not only does using it help keep it
kind of moving, the parts moving,

but as a museum, we generally use it.

Two of our three aircraft elevators
still work, which is how we get

planes and equipment from the
hangar deck up to the flight deck.

We have bomb elevators that
work, dumbwaiters that work.

We have winches, cranes, our
boat and aircraft crane that's

hanging off the side of the ship.

That was the one that picked
up the Apollo capsules.

We still use it today.

Wow.

And it's World War II tech.

As long as you can keep up with
the upkeep, it keeps working.

Yeah.

Something that I'm really curious about
is just sort of for a museum that is

… You compared the Hornet to a historic
house, and for a historic house, they

may want to keep things as they were.

They'd not really repair something
that breaks because that would ruin

some of the historic character.

But for your situation, you have
moving parts that need to be maintained

for just operations around the ship.

Yeah.

I mean, sometimes you do
encounter the whole philosophical

ship of Theseus, right?

Exactly.

Yes.

The flight deck will need to be
restored, fully restored, eventually.

In a perfect world, we would use the
original techniques and the teak wood

and it's 900 feet of teak wood, and
that's just currently out of our budget.

So other museum ships have had other
solutions for their flight deck.

There's five aircraft carrier museums in
the United States and we're one of them.

Yeah.

So this one's … The Yorktown
is the sister ship to the Hornet?

There's four Essex-class
carriers, of which we are one.

So it's Hornet in the Bay Area.

There's the Lexington in
Corpus Christi, Texas.

There is the Yorktown in the Carolinas,
and then there is Intrepid in New York.

And then the final aircraft carrier
museum is the Midway down in San Diego,

but that's slightly younger and bigger.

We try to be as respectful of the
repairs and maintenance as we can be,

and generally doing it like they would
have done it is the best way anyway.

But sometimes we do have
to put in modern solutions.

Not as many as one might expect.

For example, when we need to do some
plumbing work, we'll often try to find

bathrooms — heads — that we don't use
and we'll self-cannibalize and that'll

be probably a problem down the line.

But currently, the head on the
fifth deck is not being used and

probably won't for another decade.

Right.

Might as well.

You told me that the Hornet has
been moored in Alameda since,

what, the mid to late '90s.

Do I have that right?

It came into Pier 3 at 1995.

Yeah.

'95. If you wanted to sail
the ship or move the ship,

could it still leave the port?

So the Navy lets us have a little less
fun and the ship doesn't actually sail

under her own power, but she is floating.

Okay.

So when we move, it would
be a dead ship tow, which is

when we just [use] tug boats.

So we can be tugged wherever we want,
but the answer is yes but no, no but yes.

It would not be like a ship sailing forth,
which is probably for the best anyway.

Hornet ran on bunker fuel — well, we
were a steam-powered turbine engine,

steam made from bunker fuel — and
our mileage was a gallon a foot.

That's not great.

[laugh] Yeah, a gallon a foot.

Oh my gosh.

Would you ever want to move the ship?

Would you ever want to
relocate beyond Alameda?

We are always exploring options.

We would love to stay in Alameda,
but it's a small location.

We don't receive that much foot
traffic, and the Hornet has

ongoing deferred maintenance.

So at some point we're going to … I
mean, we have actually, we've been really

lucky actually bucking the trends that
museums are seeing still post-Covid.

We have exceeded slightly our
pre-Covid attendance numbers.

Fantastic.

So yeah, which is awesome.

We're trying to figure out what we did
so good, but we're running with it.

We're not complaining.

It's not eventually going to keep up with
something that's going to fall apart.

So if we had an option where we could
get ourselves better situated for better

long-term sustainability, we're going
to be seriously looking at that option.

Well, I will say though, for your current
location, the way to get there, I think

you and I would agree the best way to
get there would be to take the ferry.

Oh yes.

That's how I got here today.

So it works both ways.

But yeah, it's a commuter
ferry, Seaplane Lagoon.

So if anyone here wants to come to
the Hornet on a Monday or a Friday,

the Seaplane Ferry is amazing.

And it drops you off just like 10
minutes walk maybe from the museum?

It's like it was built for us.

It's a 10-minute walk
away from the museum.

That's a very nice perk.

Yeah.

Best way to get to a museum.

Hey, if you're enjoying the episode,
then make sure to follow the podcast

in whatever app you're using right now.

It's free and it makes sure that new
episodes will show up automatically.

If you're on YouTube, then
hit subscribe there too.

Thank you so much.

Do you have a museum story?

Maybe there was a time you got
lost, a time that you were moved

to tears, or a time you saw
something that blew your mind.

No matter what your story
is, I want to hear it.

Head to likemuseum.com and
click submit a museum story.

It might end up on a future episode.

That's likemuseum.com and
click submit a museum story.

I want to ask about your
personal story with the museum.

How did you come to work there?

I had an undergraduate degree from
UC Davis and I got in in art history.

And I was actually spoken to by an adviser
and he said, "Do you want to go into

museums or art galleries?" And I said,
"Well, I'm not really a fan of modern

art, so I'd much prefer museums." And he
says, "Okay, a master's degree might help

with that." So I'm looking around at all
the master's programs for museum studies

— that is a master's program, museum studies
— and there are two in the Bay Area that

have it, and SF State is one of them.

That's the one I'd ultimately go to,
but it requires 60 hours of museum

volunteering before you even apply.

That's part of the application process.

Fair.

It lets people understand what
they're getting into with the

nonprofit life and museums in general.

So go experience it and
then we'll teach you.

So I did some volunteer
work at the Schultz Museum.

That was summer, so I was living back
home with my folks in Santa Rosa.

I also got some volunteer experience
at the Walt Disney Museum.

They're also going to be on
this podcast, so small world.

They probably wouldn't remember
me, but I was one of their gallery

guides, I had a great time.

I was actually volunteering with
the Schultz Museum, and it was an

anniversary of the Apollo missions.

Snoopy was — this is a long-winded way
of coming back, I'll come back to it,

though, I promise — Snoopy was a mascot of
the NASA Apollo program as a safety icon.

Love that.

Little silver Snoopy.

So Schultz Museum showed up to the Hornet
Museum, which is how I first touched it.

And I said, "This is pretty cool." In
my undergraduate studies of art history,

it also included a lot of architecture.

I actually did a study abroad for
history of medieval warfare in Scotland.

So I'm like, "This is kind
of like a fortress." I'm

like, "I could be interested.

I don't know anything about World
War II, but we can get there."

And I started volunteering.

Knowing I needed more hours for my
grad program, I started volunteering

there as a docent tour guide.

And I learned everything from these
old fellows, oral history-wise.

I mean, they had some written stuff, but
I was mostly just toddling on behind them

learning tours, and that was 15 years ago.

So they actually got me my first job.

I'm pretty sure the guys I worked
with bragged about me enough or

forced them to hire me as a part-time
collections manager for artifact care.

So thank you, Monday docent crew.

And then I just kind of hopped
around jobs until I got to my current

position of executive director.

Stick around long enough, I
suppose, and it can happen.

And the stuff you were learning at
the time — around 2011 then — I assume

by this point, the docents weren't
people who had served in World War II.

Or were they?

We had a few from World War II still.

Really?

Yes.

Just recently, just this year,
we had someone from Korea finally

retire at the tender age of 94, 95.

Dale decided — his name was Dale,
he flew Panthers in Korea — and he

decided maybe he didn't have to … It
was a little bit of work to climb

onto an aircraft carrier every day.

We said, "Okay, Dale, that's great.
We'll throw a party for you. Thank

you so much for your service." But
yeah, we did have some World War II.

Of course, most of them have passed
on at this point just by age, raw

age, doing the math, but we have
a few who served in Korea still.

We have many who served,
several who served in Vietnam.

And of course, the Hornet
was decommissioned in 1970.

So the youngest docent we could
have that would've served on the

Hornet would have been 18 in 1970.

So: math.

Do the math there.

Yeah.

What do you wish that you had
known before you became the

executive director of the Hornet?

Before you assumed this position
of leadership, you graduated

from working at the ship to then
having to manage all of this.

What do you wish you had known back then?

I think I was fairly lucky in that
before I got this title, I was

actually directly under the previous
executive director, so I saw a lot

of stuff that was behind the curtain.

I'm not sure if I would've given
previous me any specific advice.

I mean, it is interesting because
you're working around people

who have such content expertise.

And I'm not sure this has evolved
since I have been executive

director, but you definitely have to
acknowledge the knowledge in the room.

I feel like I've always tried to
be really good about that because I

come from an art history background,
I come from a museum background.

I know nothing.

I have plane blindness.

I'm like, don't ask me.

I know most of our planes,
but don't pop quiz me.

Generally.

Some other ship's planes, uh-uh.

Exactly.

A battleship?

No, no, no, no.

I know Hornet vaguely during
World War II, but that's awesome.

I love having people
who know more than I do.

And I think I've come to try to get a lot
better at delegating that kind of work

and being like, no, you're the expert.

I'll let you shine.

You come and talk.

I can keep people entertained
for an hour, maybe two hours,

flex those docent muscles again.

But if someone wants an every knob
and dial tour, which some people do,

I'm like, oh, that's not me, friend.

Let me introduce you to someone who
actually served in that engine room.

Then you can go disappear for four hours.

Yeah.

Could you also talk about how
the Hornet operates financially?

Where does its money come from
and how do you deploy that money?

One thing that people don't expect
is that we are not federally funded.

We actually don't receive
federal or Navy funding.

The Navy effectively gave a nonprofit
an aircraft carrier and said, "Have

fun." So we get our funding from the
way most other museums do, which is

admissions, membership, donations.

When people choose to use
Hornet as an event venue, that's

also revenue that comes to us.

And we do get grants.

We had a grant last year,
extraordinary one from Hearst

Foundation for our education
programming, and that was very lovely.

We do depend on local and people and
tourists coming in and stopping by

and buying things from our store.

So we always do really encourage that.

And I think people expect that … They
see the ship and, as I interpret it,

they probably think it's some kind of
monolith, some well-funded solid thing.

I mean, it looks visually

—
We are very visually imposing.

Yes.

But inside, again, it's
that midsize museum.

It's just making the paydays as they come
down and doing our best to hang in there.

We're hanging in there pretty good,
we're very scrappy, but everything helps.

Do you have a dream or a goal for what
you want the museum to be in the future?

Something you have not been
able to do yet with it?

Stabilizing it?

I mean, we are hanging in
there, but Hornet's had to be

scrappy for the past 28 years.

And I would love us to get beyond scrappy.

The staff we work with, the crew we have,
if we could just get more visitors one

way or another and have a little bit
more money to actually do real long-term

project planning, that would be amazing.

So we're slowly working towards
acquiring those resources and

meeting people and connecting up with
people who can get us those kind of

longer-term goals solved and resolved.

But it's a great crew that we do have and
being able to think … Having to think

creatively on your feet is rough, but
having the crew who can do it is awesome.

So when we can solve problems,
it's like, yes, did it again.

But it's stressful in the moment as well.

But at the same time, this is the kind of
staff and volunteers when you're working

with, it can be like 2:00 AM and you're
cleaning up after a party and it's like,

okay, you have to like these guys because
you're not doing museum work, you're just

getting through the night and solving
the problem and you're doing museum work.

But there's a lot of camaraderie.

I bet there's some unusual quirks to
having this job that may be different

from any other type of museum.

A lot of museums have unique
quirks, of course, but there are

definitely once-a-month times
where you just look at each other

and be like, "Oh, this is our job.

This is what we're working with
right now." We open up a hatch or

a cabinet door that hasn't been
opened in too long and we find some

old flares and we're like, "Uh-oh."

Those have been there since the '40s.

Yeah, uh-oh.

But we know who to call.

We have our friendly connections with
the 95th weapons of mass destruction

fellows and we are like, "Hey, hey guys."

FYI.

I don't think it's a problem,
but it might be a problem.

So anytime.

And then we have opportunities to host.

But we have some crazy
creative events on the ship.

It's always fun to also get the
inquiries to be part of that and just

be like, "Oh, you want to do what?

No, no, we could do it.

Just tell me more.

Let's go." We've had Jeep obstacle
courses on the flight deck.

We've had Facebook set
up zip lines on the pier.

We've had Google made it
snow in hangar bay one.

We've had filming.

Hornet has a filming credit.

Yes, I saw it was "The Master,"
the Paul Thomas Anderson movie.

The Master, and the critically
acclaimed "XXX: State of the Union."

I missed that one.

I'll get right on that.

I think I caught it once on TV and it
happened to be a part that was on Hornet.

I'm like, "That's weird." I'm
like, "I know that hangar deck."

"That's work."

But it's also fun because sometimes
they leave movie props and that's

how we acquire more set dressing.

So we're like, "No, no, you
can leave the catapult cables.

No, that looks good.

You did good on that.

Please leave it." That's always fun.

When the ghost shows come to film, those
are always just kind of fun to see them

come through walking around in the dark.

How does that work for you as a museum
operator when you have a ghost show

that wants to come through and talk
about the ship that wants to kill you?

What are your touch points
with a TV show like that?

We do tell them the spooky stories that
we do have and that's the ghost stories.

So it's more about the sailors who served.

There is a little bit of a push and pull.

I mean, no one's trying to push
boundaries or anything like that,

but I'm like, the sailors aren't
evil or spooky or going to get you.

They're just living in their afterlife,
getting through the day, if you will.

But the stories we tell
mostly revolve around that.

So we tell the story as we want it to
be told, and then we let them stumble

around in the dark, but also be like,
"You need some lights though because

it actually gets caved dark downstairs.

We don't have windows.

It gets solidly dark.

Please don't die."

What about from visitors?

What's the best thing you've
ever heard a visitor say?

I mean, it depends on the age.

Kids [are] just joyful,
pointing at everything.

You get plane kids, right?

You get your dinosaur kids, you have your
car kids, you got plane kids, train kids.

We get a solid amount of plane kids who
just know more than anyone else would.

And that's awesome just to
hear them rattling off facts.

It's really cute when they
come dressed up like little

astronauts or little "Top Guns."

Oh my gosh.

I didn't think that'd be a
possibility, but of course it is.

Of course they do.

They wear little space helmets.

I'm like, "Oh, you're killing me.
So cute." And then you get your

veterans who either served on this
ship or one like it, and they have

very emotional reactions to it.

Seeing grown people cry can be a
little secondary emotional, I'm like,

"Oh, that's heavy for a Monday."

Most of them are in fact not possession.

Most of them just have real emotions.

They just have real remembrance of like,
oh, the smell is apparently exactly

as it was because it's still there.

And it brings them right back to when
they were 20s, young 20s, and then

stories start pouring out of them and
they get to show sometimes when they

served on the ship or if they tell
us they served on the ship, we will

oftentimes take them and their families
to where they actually slept and worked.

Even if it's not on the beaten
path, we'll find it for you.

Powers combine, your memory, our
knowledge where you probably were.

We could find your exact bunk.

Wow.

One of the stories you were telling
me when we were walking around the

ship was about keeping morale up
among the crew members and how, I

think you said any opportunity to
bake a cake, they would bake a cake.

Yes.

Can you talk about the cakes?

Cakes.

Ship's cakes.

So I have had access in my
collections manager's day to

our storage of newsletters.

The ships produced
newsletters and newspapers.

And gosh, there's a lot of photos of cake.

Most of the photos have something
to do with cake, and they have some

labels on the cakes, as one would.

And it's like "10,000th trap" — which is
the landing — or "5,000th launch." It was

usually based around aircraft movement
because we're an aircraft carrier.

But the joke is that any excuse to
bake a cake, our bakery popped out a

cake, and it could be standard bakery
size as one can still order today.

But if you wanted to feed all 3,500
men, you had to make what I call

a table cake because if you have a
banquet table, you just cover that

sucker in several layers of cake.

It's the size of a table.

But you also have photos … These
sailors who are bakers put

artistry into their work.

And I find that very interesting.

We have elements of artistry everywhere,
whether it's little mosaic tiles in the

deck, paintings on the wall, murals, art.

They didn't have to make art, but
they did because they're human and

they were living in this space.

So even the bakers, we have photos of
when the Apollo 11 astronauts landed,

they had a big old fancy meal and all
of the crew was invited and we have

the menu from that and we have photos
of a small cake, but still good.

And they made spheres on top of it — of
cake — of the earth and the moon.

And I'm like, that took engineering, that
took some effort, but they put it into it.

So yes, on display in one of
our ready rooms, we currently

have a fake, of course, but a
representative cake of what they

would've been producing in our bakery.

During battle stations, individual
areas of the ship would be

closed down from one another.

And especially during World War
II, these battles could last hours.

The only food to make it across the
battle lines were coffee and doughnuts.

So if you're a baker, your battle station
could be downstairs making doughnuts.

Oh wow.

Which sounds awesome for the first
hour, but I can only imagine if

you're, gosh, hour eight into it, it's
like, "Coffee and doughnuts, swell.

Good.

I love this.

I love my life right now."

Yep.

Wow.

I guess you got to keep everyone
awake and sugared up if they need to

be on their best on their defenses.

Exactly.

And if you take a sailor's life
tour, which is one of our added

tours, you can go see the bakery
and you could see on the table, we

have a recipe for 7,000 doughnuts.

In case you ever need it.

Yeah.

You never know.

What is a small detail about the Hornet
that only you appreciate, that the

average visitor would never notice
but you know it's there because you've

been with this museum for so long?

I think it'd be the little details.

Again, those little living space details,
just being able to see … We still

have some sailor graffiti, we call it.

If you go on the underside of some of
the beds, some of the canvas — because

we have canvas racks — some of the
undersides still have their writing on it.

If you open the right locker,
sometimes you'll see writing.

Not all of it nice, but some of it fun.

But it's just like, oh
yeah, people lived here.

3,000 young men lived in this space.

This was their home.

And just being able to see those
little markers of them whittling

their days away, I'm like, oh
gosh, this is one of those places.

When you say 16 months, it's different
from actually living 16 months out at sea.

Yeah.

Since you've been working at the Hornet,
where have you looked for inspiration?

Have you borrowed any ideas from
other places that you've been

or things that you've heard?

Every museum steals
from every other museum.

Good!

That's good news.

Don't let anyone tell
you anything different.

Everyone always goes to other
museums to steal every idea they can.

Museum people are the worst
visiting other museums.

We're looking at how they hung
things versus the actual art.

It's miserable to be with us on a visit.

But I also think that I benefit a lot
from coming from the broader museum field.

Ship people can be very kind of just
like, this is a ship and this is good.

Luckily everyone, all of our ship people
on our ship appreciate also hearing

from other corners of the museum world.

But just in terms of immersion, in terms
of how we share information, the museum

world is always evolving on how to
interact with people and best practices,

and keeping up with that is important.

So we visit big museums, small museums.

I know when I went to London,
the Imperial War Museum there,

they do amazing interactive work.

I've never been to the World War II
Museum in New Orleans, but I really want

to go because I hear they really deep
dive into immersion and set dressing.

And luckily we have the set already
built out mostly, but how to fill

it in, we're always working on that,
how to fill it in better and how to

engage people's senses because people
learn when their senses are engaged.

So the more we can do that.

So even going to places like Children's
Discovery Museum, what do kids like to do?

What are they pulling
on, pushing on, lifting?

How can we use that concept
and introduce it to our story?

We can usually always make
something work if we can see the

mechanics behind the concept.

The Exploratorium, it's not even cheating,
they put out what they call cookbooks.

Cookbooks for museum operators?

Recipes for interactives.

So they call them cookbooks,
but they actually publish how

their interactives are built.

They're a great example and they share
it with passion of how they do it.

They're kind of a think tank for it.

So always going to check
in what they're doing.

People learn better when
the senses are engaged.

Yeah.

I think you need to
start making doughnuts.

I think you need to use
that 7,000 doughnut recipe.

I think we need to do taste.

We really discourage them licking the
walls, but we can maybe do baked goods.

Last question I have for you, and this
is the hardest question I have for you in

the whole interview, which is if you're
in a museum gift shop, what do you buy?

I try to exhibit some self-control now.

Okay.

So honestly, my go-to is looking
for things like postcards,

something small I can put on my
fridge or my wall and do that.

But it depends on the museum.

Sometimes if they have replicas of
artifacts, I'm all over that stuff.

Shirts, usually not, but sometimes.

I do have a lot of Hornet shirts, but
that's because we have good designs

and also because you got to represent.

Absolutely.

Well, Laura, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast.

Wonderful seeing you again and wish
you best of luck with everything

with the Hornet going forward.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks again to Laura Fies
for coming on the podcast.

The USS Hornet Museum is open Friday
through Monday in Alameda, California.

And there's the haunted house
experience, Haunted Hornet.

That runs through November
1st and is for ages 13 and up.

When I visited the Hornet, they
didn't yet have the haunted merch

ready, but don't worry, I still
got something from the gift shop.

It's a hat with the gold
"scrambled egg" style leaves on

the brim, and it says USS Hornet.

This hat is up for grabs in our gift
shop giveaway, so if you want to

win it, then sign up for our free
email newsletter at likemuseum.com.

Call 'Em Like Museum is hosted
and edited by me, Eric Johnson.

It's produced out of my podcast
agency in San Francisco, LightningPod.

Our social media
specialist is Julia Wilde.

Artwork is by Rhe Civitello.

Thank you for listening, and
I'll see you at the museum.