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Interviews from a multicultural perspective that question the way we understand America
Hello listener! Do you know that you can now watch every episode on YouTube and Spotify podcasts? This episode in particular has some amazing footage from the documentary's trailer video. I haven't missed a round up in 23 years. I've been riding and I missed out on a few things like a wedding and this and that. So it's a high priority on my list. If that was to ever stop, I'd be very disappointed in that. The guys talk about their fathers, their stepfathers, their grandfathers riding round up.
It's a really honored tradition. There's a saying out there that everybody wants to be a cowboy until it's time to be a cowboy and cowboy up a little where sometimes it's dangerous. I think a lot of people don't realize how much work we put into our horses and our cattle too. The cows really help maintain the grasslands and the forest service. For this round up, the only thing they do is a cowboy. That's it.
You sleep there, you eat with each other, there's a bunkhouse. The old tradition. It's the last of the old ways. If you're tired of arguing with strangers on the internet, try talking with one of them in real life. Welcome to Back in America, the podcast. My name is Andrew Labens. I originally grew up in Nebraska by way of Montana.
I studied communications, broadcasting, journalism and stuff in college. That's how this whole thing came about. I've known a lot of these guys from the film, from growing up around them when I was younger. My family used to travel up to Montana. They have a place out there. I knew some of these guys since I was eight, nine years old. I always heard stories of the round up and I thought maybe someone needs to document this just purely for historical sake.
I never really thought beyond that. It was just, hey, there should be some sort of record of this. The idea came about. I contacted Brian out of the blue. I had met him at a film festival he was judging at and he was interested. The rest is history, I would say. Brian and I, we met at the University of Maryland. I was studying journalism.
You were also studying journalism. I was in print and you were in photography, right? I was in the news program. I was very interested in journalism and public affairs. I had been taking photographs the whole time I was in college. I continued on that path, which is where I met you, Stan. Give us a synopsis of this documentary. Yes, this cattle round up.
The first iteration of it, I think, was back in 1912. It was the first time they did it. It used to be a very large round up. Everybody would have cattle in the area that would graze on this mountain range. It used to take them, I think, a month to round up all these cattle and sort them back out to their owners. Just for people who are not aware, the round up is at the end of the season, right? The Highwood Mountain Range is its national forest land.
It's public forest. They allow ranchers to buy grazing permits for a very low cost. This allows them to feed their cattle, put these cattle up on the national forest land at the beginning of summer, and they can just graze freely all summer. It's very financially, I guess, efficient for them. It's a lot cheaper than grazing on their own property or whatever. They're allowed to use this national forest. That's for everybody's use.
Then at the end of the summer, three months later, they closed the grazing off. The reason why our group of guys exists is because a lot of these ranchers nowadays use four-wheel vehicles and those kind of like pickup trucks and stuff to herd their cattle around. A lot of them don't ride horses very often, where our group of cowboys are very good horsemen. They know how to gather cattle in the mountains and do that. So at the end of that grazing season, they hire this group of guys to come up
there and just cover the entire mountain range and find all of the cattle that have just been up there. It takes them about 10 days to do it. I think roughly there's 2,500 to 3,000 cattle up there in the mountains. They bring all their equipment in, all their horses, everything. They stay on site for about 10 days. Every single day they go out on horseback, find cattle, bring them back down. Then at the end of that, they sort them to each rancher and send them back home.
Then they stay with their ranches until the following season and they do it all over again. My name is Dave Crowder. I grew up in rural West Virginia until I was about 20 years old. I joined the military and that's what put me out West in Montana. Then I just, I got out of the military, out of active duty for a few years. Then I was a ranch hand in Highwood, Montana for a local ranch. How did you decide what to tell?
Which angle to take? Which story to really narrate? Did you craft it before you go film or how did that happen? I think that was part of the learning process for us. When we first started, you heard a lot of these guys talking about how the national forest, they don't want us up here. They're going to shut this down. They're not going to allow this to happen.
Blah, blah, blah. We started digging into it and realized that really wasn't much of the case. The national forest doesn't really have an issue with these guys up there. So we had to reassess what our story was. And it was obvious to us, I think, after a while, that it was more of those guys reflecting on their own lives of, hey, it's coming closer to an end for me personally than the actual event, you know, because they were just getting older. A lot of these guys had started back in the seventies or eighties and they were
getting to a point where they physically couldn't go up there and do it. These guys were aging out and they were watching each other age out. Like the next guy was getting older and creakier and they spent a lot of time talking. History has a lot to do with this roundup. The guys talk about their fathers, their stepfathers, their grandfathers riding roundup. It's a really honored tradition. These guys are selected because they're the best horsemen in the region. And this is they all most of them are already ranchers and cowboys.
But when you own a ranch and you're a cowboy, you're not really cowboy. Most of the time now, they're doctorate or running machinery or growing hay for their animals or what. There's a million families and there's a million other things to do. But for this roundup, the only thing they do is a cowboy. That's it. You sleep there. You eat with each other. You it's there's a bunkhouse and the old tradition, the last of the old ways. Actually, my years built around the roundup.
I haven't missed the roundup in 23 years. I've been riding and I missed out on a few things like a wedding and this and that. So it's a high priority on my list. If that was to ever stop, I'd be very disappointed in that. We had to figure out how to frame it in the context of what we were seeing. And using the Skelton family was an easy way to see how it's a generational skill passed on because the father had started back in the 70s.
And now his two sons were grown up old enough to come do it. So that was really the only in the moment time where you saw two different generations of a family working on this event, they had a family member who rode on it since probably the 30s or 40s. So it was someone from their family tree had been riding on this exact thing. Now 60, 70 years. And you were riding with them, right? Yeah.
Yeah. With all your gears and stuff. Were you a good rider before that? I had some experience riding horses. And so the first year Brian had no experience riding horses. So we got him up to speed. And then most of the time I would just ride on a horse ahead of him and lead him for that first year, maybe the first two years.
But then after that, Brian became very comfortable on a horse. He could ride without any hands, like a circus act and hold a camera at the same time. But it used to be an honor, a privilege to go ride on the roundup. When I started in 2002, it was a privilege to get up there and ride with those old cowboys. And as horses get more expensive and they get injured, it really pushes a lot of guys from riding and they can't get away for eight days. It used to be a very loyal crew like Art, Tom Skelton, Dave Ripley, myself.
We rode for like the Skelton's grandfather, Dave Lom, he rode for 50 years, they say, every year. And we've got a few young guys now that are pretty dedicated, but life gets in the way and then they can't ride. And I understand that completely. How many years have you gone there? We started in 2009 was the first year. And by the time I think we finally finished shooting was 2016 or 2017.
Wow. Yeah, because it was only it's only 10 days every year at the end of September. So you followed them? What did you see? Did you notice any changes? To be clear about the time span, Andrew and I went into this barely knowing each other, barely know, he barely knew the cowboys. He knew maybe one of them fairly well, but we went in there more or less as strangers
with a privilege to document these guys. And, and we didn't know anything about the cowboys. And, and we didn't know anything about the roundup really at the time, other than just legend and hearsay. So the very first year we documented everything like fully, like everything that was happening, we documented, we edited a footage test just to see if the footage was working. And once we realized it looked beautiful and it was working, we were like, okay, this is a real project.
Yeah, I would say it was probably five years before we started. Yeah. So Stan, what happened was when those five years were passing, the cowboys asked us, they said, Hey, you guys are welcome back if you'd like to come back and continue filming, which in my eyes was a huge privilege because at that time we became very good friends with the cowboys and they accepted us not as filmmakers, but just as friends, which was a huge compliment to both of us. The ranching community is traditionally very cautious of outsiders.
How did you break the ice? How did you gain that trust? I didn't want to just show up and start running camera. That's just rude. And I didn't know the guys. So I was like, I want to get there a week early and meet everyone. So I was like, Andrew, can you set up a dinner? You want to talk about that dinner?
Oh, so though one of the guys who rides on there is very close to me. He was one of the people who stood up at my wedding. He's like a second father to me, art. And he had my back through the whole like inception of this. I told him, I was like, Hey, I have this idea of we should come, I should come and film. And he was a hundred percent all for it. He told all the other guys was they were a little hesitant. He's no, let's let them, let's let them do this.
So then when we set up the dinner, I don't think anybody expected Brian to be a Chinese American in the middle of this country of just white male Montana and cowboys. And it was like a pin drop when Brian walked into this dinner. Cause there's 10 guys with all their family, all their wives, kids were sitting there and they're just, Oh, okay. That's it's Brian. So I'm in this long hair. They told me they expect, they're like, Andrew told us there was a film, like a
filmmaker coming from Washington, DC. We expected some guy in a suit. That's what they told me. And I showed up dressed like they dress and I have long hair and I'm Asian and they were a little confused with all the guys went to the back of the room. Yeah, it was, it was different because it's, it, you, if you're, when we go ride, there's eight of us and a cook. And that's pretty much all the people that are ever there.
We don't really see anybody extra and to have those guys and Brian, but that first few days of that first year, we just didn't know about him. And, but geez, now that we know him. Yeah, we love them. They came back several years to finish it, but it was definitely a little different. Just Brian and his experiences in life. And I was in Afghanistan about the same time he was. I was with the, with the air force, but he was there doing a documentary.
And so we bonded pretty quick. Brian, do you think that your background really changed the way you documented the film or did it change some of the outcome of this film?
I mean, inherently my upbringing as an Asian American makes my perspective of everything in my life a little bit different, and that might be why I'm interested in culture and sociological issues and things, because I'm not black and I'm not white and I'm not Latino. So I'm kind of this perpetual outsider in maybe not in everyone's eyes, but in, in a certain, to a certain degree. I'm able, I never felt like as a child to really, I really fit in anywhere because of that. I grew up in a place that wasn't, that were, were not very many Asians.
So I guess that forced a degree of adaptability within my personality. It's a survivor die. Like I have to adapt. So on that aspect, yes, as far as the filmmaking and getting along with the guys and getting them to trust me, that's more just, I think, just as a person, not my ethnic upbringing, I think the fact that I've done many things and been many places and I think that really helps. Of course, I remember one of the guys were more than one of the guys saying, I
bet you never met guys like us before. And I'm like, not Cowboys, but yeah, pretty much every band I've ever traveled with is like you jackasses. And they love that. I think the fact that I'm adaptable and I'm respectful, I think they were surprised that despite not riding a horse, I was able to, I remember most of those guys that said, I don't know if you're, you realize just how dangerous what we're all doing and what you're doing right now is, I don't know if you're courageous
or stupid, but either way, I'm surprised you're doing as well as you are. Tell us about the responsibility those guys have. Yeah, it's definitely an important job to have them get done because each one of those cows that they round up is worth anywhere from a thousand to $2,000 when they go to market and everything like that. That's a big pressure point for them was always trying to find every single cow up there because they definitely don't find them all in that 10 day period. How many cattle are we talking about?
There's about 2,500 that they would gather. Wow. So yeah, I mean, that's down from what they used to do. I mean, they used to say it was close to like 8,000 way back in the early 1900s. But I mean, they understand that. 50,000 acres? Yeah, something like that. 50,000, I believe.
So at the end of Round Gap, there's usually like maybe a handful of strays. We're not talking tons. We're talking like single digits. Yeah. But I always, they understand that it's business. So they work as hard as they can because it's their fellow neighbor that they're helping out to find this and it's part of their income, part of their livelihood. It's definitely an important thing and they take it seriously.
They have their fun for sure, but they know that they're up there to do work. Pride has a lot to do with it too. The fact that they're proud to be the best horsemen. They're proud that they've been doing this for generations. They're proud to be good at what they do. So they want to be good cowboys. Yeah. They don't like to hear criticism.
They've gotten it definitely from different ranchers who, you know, tell them, hey, you didn't get all my cattle or you didn't find, you left a couple up there. And they don't take too lightly to that. That's, it's pretty serious for someone to be calling them out when they're up there busting their ass to do this for them. Yeah. They're definitely prideful for sure. How do you think they see the rest of the U.S.?
It must be, they're pretty remote. How do you, what is their vision of the world? When you are at camp by the fire, what do they tell you about their vision of America? It's def, it definitely changed right in front of our eyes working on it because things just became way more accessible with the internet, with Amazon delivery, with all these things that are now at their fingertips, which for a very long time were not, they understand things that go on in the world. I think sometimes their viewpoints can definitely be narrow because of the
remoteness of their job and what they do is such an outlier to the most of the country that people to this day don't even know that cowboys like this are still out doing things like that. But at the same time, they were always very open to most anything, any ideas or news or anything like that. They were willing to sit there and discuss and talk about it. And a lot of times we talk about politics. We talk about anything travel.
Yeah. They like to learn about things and they're not shy with their opinions, but they're also not completely unchanging. They adapt to things and they're very aware of their current situation is a very outdated process. There's a lot of things that have changed in the agriculture, ranging business they are very well aware of that as much as they like it to be, Hey, let's cut off from the world and take the horses up and not hear anything, they know that they
can't do that. So they sometimes they got to call the their spouses back home and make sure things are still operating correctly while they're on on the roundup. And so they're very aware that the world is changing. And, and I think they also, that helps them not take it for granted that they get to do stuff like this. You're right, Stan. The fact that they are remote, not just from the coasts who are from DC or from
cities, they're remote from even their own communities. Like these guys are kind of outsiders, even in their own community. I remember we went to great falls to go eat at a steak house and, and old man skeleton looked out and all these people were peering out of the kitchen door. And I was like, what's going on? And he goes, and I think Shane was like, none of them are used to seeing. I was like, is it because of me? And they're like, no, we don't come to town.
So I think everybody was like, holy crap. Skeletons are all here. What the, what's going on? They're a known entity out in the, out in those mountains and they don't come to town. The guys don't leave the ranch ever. There's a saying out there, everybody wants to be a cowboy until it's time to be a cowboy and cowboy up a little.
Where sometimes it's dangerous. It's you're riding young horses and sometimes they act up and buck and rear over. And, but I think a lot of people don't realize how much work we put into our horses and our cattle too, to make them, to ensure our cattle are healthy and our horses are healthy and that the range cows out there and the cows really help maintain the grasslands, the forest service. So we gather in there, it's about 60,000 acres of forest service that we ride and
knock on wood, but the high woods haven't had a fire up there in a hundred years because the cattle keep it grazed down. So when lightning strikes or there's a fire, there's not a lot of fuel there for those fires. So the cattle really help maintain our environment. And I think a lot of people from the city that don't really realize how that all works out and that we really care for our cattle and our horses passionately. They make us money, but also we want to make sure they're healthy.
What do you hope people get out of this? I think the biggest thing to take away is just to enjoy what you do, enjoy your life. And I think getting people to see that this is how these guys live their lives and this is a real thing. And I think that's the biggest thing for me. We didn't go into the politics or the food process or anything like that. It's more of these guys do something that they love to do rain or shine, poor
or rich. This is just how they live. And they're not really changing for any sort of reason other than this is what they want to do in life. So I think that's something to take away that I hope people take away. And also maybe just get a little window into a different culture that they're not aware of. And so maybe when they start thinking about something, when they're like, Hey,
there are people out there doing this. There are people out there who love these things, who are fun individuals. It's just more of an experiential type of film. I feel. Yeah. The guys definitely didn't want to, they're like, we want people to know we're not rednecks or whatever derogatory like simpletons. Just because we're cowboys doesn't mean we're idiots.
These were all topics of discussion when we were trying to figure out where to take our story. And in the end, we realized the strength of it was just a window into a world. It's the characters. It's the guys. They care about each other. They respect each other. This thing is real.
These people do it and they enjoy it. That's it's part of the American. Culture.
Yeah, definitely. With the success of Yellowstone and all of these other things, we wanted, we also were aware that we could have made a more quote unquote popular consumable documentary, a little less poetic, a little less arty if it might've gotten more success in a commercial way. But in the end, our goal was to be as truthful and honest to the story and to the guys and the character and the life as we could be. So the fact that the guys are all seem very proud of the film and they were very
happy with the result and we completed it. I think that to Andrew and I were, was the most important thing. You see somebody with a cowboy hat that's has horses and they're proud of that. We love it. And now obviously a roundup is more than visual and I'm talking about all the soundtrack. What songs really surprised you that you were not expecting? I think you were very surprised by how loud the cattle were.
Once you got them all, they pushed all of them together in this huge field. So there's probably five or 600 head of cattle there. And it is like deafening loud. If you've never been around that. Hearing it every night. Yeah. And they're just like mooing to each other. And that's just, that's something that you probably would not be very used to
coming from a city environment. I think one interesting thing is that COVID sent us back a little bit because it gave us a chance to reevaluate our original cut of the film. And we went back into the edit and re-edited, but I feel like we may have had a little bit more festival success in the past, but when we ended up like finally releasing for festivals at this particular modern juncture in history. Um, the last thing that festivals were looking for was a documentary about old white men complaining that their culture was disappearing.
That was fascinating. We weren't mad about it. It's just timing, but we, but it wasn't lost on us. We definitely, I thought it was an interesting. Aspect of our situation. And you could have gone to the festival promoter on say, but look, I'm Asian. Yeah. Some of them said, maybe you should have made the film about you.
And we were like, no, we're currently trying to get it on a streaming service. It may be all of a sudden it becomes a hit or something, but the tons of people start watching it. Who knows? In the next months, it should be out in streaming. We're hoping Amazon prime like prime video. Like our goal was to complete and to make the guys proud and to capture a moment in time in American history, because it is true.
This will all be gone someday. The culture will be completely changed and at least this forever will live in history and will live forever. Yeah. What is America to you? What is America to me? Oh man. A place where I live.
It's a place where people have stories that everybody doesn't get to hear. And hopefully we've been able to at least share one of those with some people who care about it. America is just a, it's an idea. And that's something that might be different than most other countries. I wouldn't say France is an idea. Like all of these other places aren't just ideas. I think the United States is an idea.
And sometimes it's an ideal and sometimes it's an ideology, but it's all dependent on the individuals that you're going to be asking. And for me, it's just an idea. It's a, like my existence is so different than the existence of these cowboys and actually even a little bit different than Andrew's existence and yours, but, but we find common ground. And, and I think that's one nice thing that we were able to do to find common ground with each other and trust each other enough and hopefully have a
successful product out of it. And that's where our film comes in. The idea that we're that other people think that Americans are cowboys. Some of them are. And then the idea that some Americans are artists and that's what we are. So, I don't know if that there's no real straight way to answer that. What is America to you? You know, I served.
So it's greatest country on the earth. I do feel that way. I get a little emotional cause I served. Yeah. What makes you emotional when you think about it? My buddies had died and the tragedy of war and things like that. But, but yeah, I think America is fantastic. I know where politics really get in the way sometimes, but I think the true
core of our country is good if we can just get past the division and the politics side of it, I think no matter who's our president, I really do feel like our country I've seen a lot of things being overseas and we live in the greatest country I feel while we got going on with our people. But the tragedy is it takes some like 9-11 or something like that for a country to figure it out that we're, we got to take care of each other. I hate that big division in our country that we have sometimes, but I do. I love America.
I love it. I was glad to serve. When you think America, what do you see? If you close your eyes and just visualize an image? The flag, the American flag, the eagle represents our country. When I think about the vast land that you fly over, like we did yesterday from Montana here and look over it. Yeah, it's the whole thing.
Thank you for listening. If you want to learn more about this documentary, check out its Facebook or Instagram page, search for Only Roundup Remains. Links are also available in the episode description. And as always, please subscribe to Back in America and share the podcast with your friend. Thank you.