Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
A Mayo Clinic podcast for laboratory professionals, physicians, and students, hosted by Justin Kreuter, M.D., assistant professor of laboratory medicine and pathology at Mayo Clinic, featuring educational topics and insightful takeaways to apply in your practice.
- This is Lab Medicine
Rounds, a curated podcast
for physicians, laboratory
professionals and students.
I'm your host, Justin Kreuter,
a transfusion medicine
pathologist, assistant professor
of Laboratory Medicine and
Pathology at Mayo Clinic.
Today we're rounding
with Dr. Reade Quinton,
an associate professor of
Laboratory Medicine Pathology.
He's the program director
for our pathology residency
program here at Mayo Clinic.
And also the current Vice president
for the National Association
of Medical Examiners (NAME).
So thanks for joining
us today, Dr. Quinton.
- Happy to be back, Dr.
Kreuter, it's always a pleasure.
- Well, and I, there's a forensics meeting
that's coming up soon
and I was scrolling through as,
as one does when you're in,
in transfusion medicine,
scoping out what other meetings are doing,
and I see that you have a lecture
that you're gonna be giving
called the Bullet Catch
and Other Deadly Illusions.
So maybe we could start off,
'cause you give some of
the best podcast interviews
for our audience.
What's the story behind this lecture?
- Yeah, yeah.
So first of all, thanks for
looking this up to begin with,
you know, we're always looking
for ways to bring in people
to the, the lectures we do.
And I think, you know,
some people are going
to see the podcast and go,
this is not lab medicine,
or at least not normal lab medicine.
So, so yeah, every year we have
a forensic science symposium
that Mayo Clinic puts on.
This would be our ninth annual one.
And most years it's kind of
a popery of topics that goes,
you know, runs the whole spectrum.
And we have some of our
consultants who are lecturing,
we bring in guest lecturers.
And this year we're trying
something a little different
by having a little bit of a theme,
or at least part of
our schedule is themed.
And so this year, part
of our theme is just simply focusing on
firearms and firearm injuries.
So we have Dr.
Lehman coming in to talk
about the basics of firearms
because there are a lot of people in,
especially in our field,
who might be comfortable
with medicine and injuries,
but they don't really
understand firearms themselves.
So Dr. Lehman's gonna talk about that.
We have a visitor who is one
of my former fellows back
in Dallas, Chris Pulos,
who is a firearms expert on top
of being a medical examiner.
And so he's going
to talk a little bit about unusual
ammunition and things like that.
So we'll talk a little bit about injuries,
a little bit about firearms.
And so one of the other
things we always include
is usually something kind of historical,
something different, you know,
just to mix up the topics.
And so I thought it would be fun to kind
of still stay within
the realm of firearms,
but to talk about an illusion
called the bullet catch.
And if anybody saw any of
the older podcasts that you
and I did, then they would
know that I also have,
besides my focus in forensic pathology,
is a focus in magic and sleigh of hand.
And so this is an entire topic
talking about the forensic,
a aspects of magic,
mostly stage illusions focusing
in particular on this one
illusion called the bullet catch.
- So I'm kind of curious, right?
A lot of times when I,
and I've been in these groups
that are organizing meetings,
and certainly from a
student point of view,
there's always often a,
a focus on what's the latest
thing coming out, what's,
what's the bleeding edge
of, of clinical medicine.
It seems a little bit, I
don't know, is it, is it brave
to, to make a,
a section based on this historic aspect?
Or how do you see that?
- Yeah, well, so there's a
couple of reasons to, to sort
of go backwards instead of forwards.
Sometimes the number one thing, I mean,
just looking at it from the standpoint
of putting on either a one day
or multi-day conferences,
you kinda wanna mix
topics up a little bit.
So always having the newest
cutting edge thing is, is,
you know, important in some ways,
but you know, you like
to have sort of the highs
and lows in between and just
kind of mix up the focus.
So that's part of the
intent here is to kind
of give somebody just
a different perspective
on what we're talking about.
But also I, I think we can all
agree that, that, you know,
hi, history is so important to what we do
for a lot of reasons,
particularly looking at the Mayo Clinic
and its own history in pathology.
For instance, anybody who
comes here is going to say,
why do you do frozen sections that way?
Well, there's a very
distinct history behind
how the frozen section was developed
and how those stains were developed
and everything that is
unique to our program,
and it's an important part of our program.
So kind of understanding
that background is, is sort
of important to understanding
the bleeding edge
that we're doing now.
You know, so I think that
sometimes it's just sort of
that stepping back
and going, this is why
we do this this way.
You know, also sometimes
just understanding
what the history it is,
is in something you don't
repeat past mistakes.
You understand how you
came to this position
and why these other options
in the past didn't work.
So I think it, it's important
to look at those things.
And then finally, just
sometimes backing off
and doing a historical
thing is just memorable.
In forensic pathology in
particular, we always joke
that if you get more than
one forensic pathologist in a
room, they're just going
to sit there all day
and try to one up each
other on, you know, cases.
Oh, there was this one
case I had back, you know,
at this time, and he had this,
and oh, well I had one that had this.
And you see that constantly in what we do.
And I think those cases, those
past cases are so memorable.
So when I'm sitting down with a trainee
and we're going through a new case
and I start telling the story about, okay,
I had this case back then
and it turned out to be this,
and that's what this is
reminding us, reminding me of,
so let's look at that.
And I think that creates sort of that,
that memory link for the resident.
- I think that the bullet is
definitely, that's a tough one
to one up maybe for our audience.
Is there, you know, I, I
appreciate you might abbreviate it
to some extent, but can you
kind of tell us what's the story
of, of the, the bullet catch
as an illusion in the field?
- Sure. So, you know,
being in my field in forensic pathology
and also enjoying magic and magicians
and what they do, one
of the things early on
that I noticed was there's
this bizarre correlation with
magic tricks on stage and violence.
I mean, you can go all the way
back to what we talk about.
I think anybody
who talks about stage illusions
at some point is gonna refer
to sawing a lady in half, right?
But then if you go down the list of,
of magic effects on stage,
there's decapitations,
mation spikes, saws, water torture cells,
I mean like a million different things
that are these deadly illusions.
And the bullet catch was one
of those, the bullet catch it,
it can be several different things,
but in essence the effect
is on stage the performer
catches a bullet fired by someone else
or by a group of people or what have you.
Now some of those are illusions,
some of those are not.
So if you watch more modern
things like David Blaine's
special and things like
that, there are some people
who have legitimately
performed a bullet catch
and then don't do it again after that.
But, but the bullet catch
classically was this idea
of the performer is
going to catch a bullet,
and it might be in the mouth,
it might be in, in a pan or,
or on a dish or something like that.
So the, the most famous version of this,
and the reason we talk about
the bullet catch in particular,
is because the most magicians
have died doing this
illusion compared to any other illusion.
So this is the most deadly illusion
and, you know, makes sense.
But the most famous example
of this was in 1918.
So there was a performer,
his real name was William Robinson,
but he went by Chung Ling Sue.
And at that time there was
this big sort of emergence of
magician performers coming from the east.
So they had kind of this
orient, you know, style to them,
and it was, it, it was
the big rage at the time.
And, and Robinson actually was not
that successful of a magician.
And so he changed his entire persona
and essentially, you know,
appropriated this Chung Ling zu persona.
So he would actually show
up, he had a interpreter
and would literally just
speak gibberish and,
and passed off as a Chinese
performer for his entire career
and was incredibly successful.
But he had his signature piece was this
stage performance called
condemned by the boxers.
And essentially it was
him standing in front
of a firing squad of multiple people
and they would fire their rifles at him
and he would have a dish
that he would hold up
and essentially capture
the bullets in this dish,
and he would come out unscathed.
That was the effect,
unfortunately for him.
One night, the, the trick went wrong.
There's still a lot of debate
over exactly exactly how
that occurred, but they fired.
And for the first time
in his entire career,
he spoke English on stage
and said, oh my God, something happened.
Drop the, you know, drop the curtain.
And that was the only time the public ever
heard him speak English.
They didn't know he could speak English.
And essentially he was shot in the
chest and, and passed away.
So there's been a lot of
interesting stories about
how did that occur.
I mean, the, the main idea is
that there was essentially
a malfunction with the,
the rifle that was used.
But of course the stories, you know,
that was it somehow like
an assassination attempt
by someone else who was
offended by his appropriation
of this other character?
Was it, I it sounded at,
I think there was a history
at some point of some strife
between him and his ex-wife,
and so did she set it up.
So there were all these rumors
and stories that abounded from that.
- I gotcha. You know, I,
I'm fascinated about this.
You certainly caught
my attention with this.
And so you've told us the
story, you've told us about
how the, you know,
history is sometimes some
of our best teachers, right?
The way it can stick
something in our mind.
I was wondering if we could kind
of take two steps back from
your actual lecture, the,
the bullet catch and for the
audience, so you know, faculty,
young faculty in various
positions, students.
I'm kind of curious
about like your approach
to storytelling.
And I realize I'm saying this
to somebody who's a
card carrying magician.
So I think you have a
very deliberate, and,
and probably, you know,
you have a keen sense of
what story is and how to go about it.
How might our audience
think about setting up
and telling a story in a presentation
for maximizing that learning?
- That's a great question.
I mean, because presentational
skills are something
that we have to develop over time.
And, and I think so many of
us, I don't know about you,
but you know, we've all
heard the stories about
how pathologists are such introverts
and you know, we just, you
know, stare at our shoes
and mumble under our breath to people
and just look under the scope.
And obviously that's not always the case,
but I, I mean, I know when I was young, I,
I was just like anybody else, I, you know,
was ab absolutely terrified
of speaking in public.
I think the first couple of times
that I spoke at national
conferences in, you know,
med school or residency
or whatever, I was a basket
case like anybody else.
But I, I think that actually
again, we can use some
of the lessons from stagecraft
to kind of help us out here.
So magicians,
even the best magicians
script, what they do, you know,
a lot of people think
that their conversation on
stage is just very off the cuff,
you know, just sort of natural and organic
and they just came up
with this on the spot.
And yet if you watch them in
the performance the next night
and the night after and the night
after, you realize that every beat of
what they're saying is perfectly scripted.
And so I, I think for us going,
you know, applying that to
what we do, you know,
scripting is important.
It's trying to determine if
you're gonna tell a story,
what are the important
things, what are the things
that you need to cut out?
How can I, the, the one approach
that I think we use a lot
is you write your script,
and this could be for a talk, it could be
for a stage presentation or whatever,
and then you look at it
and you constantly go,
how can I say the same thing in less words
and get that across.
Now granted, for some of
our topics in pathology,
when we're talking very
specific scientific research
or what have you, you need more words.
But is there a way to kind
of streamline that, to focus
what you really want to get across
- It?
It, I think this is awesome for
our audience to hear, right?
Because it's, you're highlighting
these presentation skills,
so practicing this.
So every time we get asked
to give a talk, look at this
as a practice opportunity,
this idea of scripting,
this is something else that
I think falls by the wayside,
especially in training as
people get busy, right?
That they kind
of put something together
really quick at the last minute.
But that doesn't really help
us develop those skills.
Like maybe that helps
develop improv skills,
but not necessarily like
the presentation skills.
Like, I think that we want,
you know, in your role
as program director, I'm, I'm expecting
that you're probably, I
know use Cap is coming up,
you're wanting your residents to be able
to stand up at use Cap and,
and really articulate Well,
- Yeah, absolutely.
And if you think about it, the,
we have all this amazing
technology that we use, you know,
PowerPoint and, you know,
all these things have completely
changed the way we gave
presentations a generation ago.
I came in at the very,
very tail end when I was
a very young resident
of literally showing up to
a conference with a carousel
of 35 millimeter slides.
And what that did was
you had to be committed
to that talk.
You couldn't just put it together one hour
before you got on stage
like a lot of people do now.
So you had more time to
really, really think about,
you know, I have to put together my talk,
know what's important,
and then go print the
slides, the physical slides,
and that's what you would take with you.
So yeah, I think the technology
today has really made it
so easy for us to put
things together last minute
that we do lose a little
bit of that preparation
that we should be doing sometimes.
- And, and something I'm struck
by sometimes in training
programs, I know in ours,
our residents might
give a presentation in,
in one area of practice.
I know when they rotate in
transfusion medicine, they'll,
they'll give talks,
but then they might be giving
that same talk in another
forum at another time.
And so it kind of provides
that opportunity for trainees
to kind of rework yes.
What their talk was.
And I guess if you sort of
put your mind, you know,
somebody who's a
particularly strong trainee
and say that they're gonna
be giving a talk again,
I imagine somebody who's
generally a strong trainee might
just say, okay, I, I, I gave the talk.
You know, people generally like my talks,
they're just gonna go
and, and give that again.
But, you know, as far as
wisdom for our audience,
what would you say as advice
for somebody who's gonna go
and give that talk again, how
to improve it?
- Yeah. I, I mean, I think
every time you give it,
you're gonna get a little
bit more comfortable with it.
The irony is sometimes
the more you give a talk,
the worse you get because you
get a little bit too relaxed
and you start to forget some
of the nuances that you wanted
to get across the first time.
But, you know, I think that a trainee,
if they have the opportunity to practice,
like let's say they're going
to use cap in presenting,
if they have the
opportunity to present to us
as faculty first, that's always
a really nice way to start,
because we may have additional
comments, questions,
or whatever that they never thought of
that they can then still have time
to incorporate into their talk.
But as far as giving a talk over
and over, I think the important thing is
if there's some way to
freshen it, modify it,
spin it a little different,
that's always important.
You know, for instance, this
talk that we're talking about,
I gave a similar talk
at the last name meeting in October,
but it was a, a fundraising
event for the foundation,
which was a two hour event.
And so, you know, I don't
have the same amount of time
for this one, so this
is gonna be a lot more
streamlined and concise.
But the other one had opportunities for me
to chat a little bit more
about other types of, you know,
magic tricks and deaths that
were associated with that.
And, and you know, so every
time you, you kind of try
to take a little bit different of a spin.
So for this one in
particular, it fit very well
because I'm going, okay,
this theme for this part
of the conference is
specifically about firearms,
so let's really hone in on that.
- And just to say that Dr.
Quentin is somebody that, that
isn't just talking the talk,
but he walks the walk in preparation.
I was up in his audio in his office
and saw him, you know,
he had pulled up in
his working on tweaking
and fine tuning this talk again.
So I, I think this has been
wonderful for us to kind of
take a little bit of delight
to talk about the bullet catch
to learn that it was, it's the
most deadly illusion that's,
that's been performed at least to date,
but also to take a step back
and like, you know, for
all of our audience,
how can we become better storytellers,
whether we're teaching
colleagues or trainees
or if trainees want to get
better for their future positions
as far as presentations,
I think this has been immensely
helpful with your advice
and I'm really grateful
that you were rounding with us today.
- I'm always happy to be here.
It's, it's always been a pleasure.
- Ed, you know, to our
audience, thank you for
for joining us today.
We're gonna have in the show notes a link
to this conference that Dr.
Quinton was talking about
and be presenting at.
We invite you to share your thoughts
and suggestions via email at mcl
education@mayo.edu.
If you've enjoyed this
podcast, please subscribe.
And then until our next rounds
together, we encourage you
to continue to connect lab medicine
and the clinical practice through
educational conversations.