Lion Counseling Podcast

🎙️ Does Shame Change People? | Therapists React to Caleb Hammer

Millions of people watch Caleb Hammer because he says what everyone else is thinking. He's blunt. He's confrontational. And for many viewers, it's incredibly satisfying to watch.

But does being harsh actually help people change?

In this episode of the Lion Counseling Podcast, therapists Mark Odland and Zack Carter react to several viral Caleb Hammer clips and explore the psychology behind shame, accountability, behavior change, and personal growth.

Along the way, they discuss:
✅ Why criticism often creates defensiveness
✅ The difference between guilt and shame
✅ Whether public confrontation actually works
✅ Why some people change while others double down
✅ The psychology behind interventions and addiction recovery
✅ Reward vs punishment in relationships and parenting
✅ When tough love helps—and when it hurts
✅ How therapists challenge people without shaming them

This isn't a critique of Caleb Hammer.

In many ways, he's highlighting real problems and encouraging people to take responsibility for their lives.

The bigger question is:
What actually creates lasting change?

📞 Book a Clarity Call with Mark
https://escapethecagenow.com/contact/

📘 Get Mark's Free E-Book
https://escapethecagenow.com/subscribe/

📚 Mark's Books & Resources
https://escapethecagenow.com/books/

Click here to watch a video of this episode.’
About Lion Counseling
Lion Counseling exists to help high-achieving men break free from the patterns that keep them stuck.
Mark Odland, MA, LMFT is a Certified EMDR Therapist, EMDRIA Approved Consultant, and former pastor who works with leaders, entrepreneurs, athletes, and other high-performing men who are ready to stop managing symptoms and start doing the deeper work.

#leadership #psychology #calebhammer #selfimprovement #mentalhealth #therapy #relationships #personaldevelopment #accountability #motivation

Creators and Guests

Host
Mark Odland
Founder of Lion Counseling, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified EMDR Therapist
Host
Zack Carter
Zack Carter is a Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling LLC.

What is Lion Counseling Podcast?

The Lion Counseling Podcast helps men escape the cages that hold them back and become the Lions they were created to be. It exists to help men obtain success, purpose, happiness, and peace in their career and personal lives. The podcast is hosted by the founder of Lion Counseling, Mark Odland (Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist and Certified EMDR Therapist), and Zack Carter (Counselor and Coach with Lion Counseling). In their podcasts, they address a variety of topics relevant to men, including: mental health, relationships, masculinity, faith, success, business, and self-improvement.

Mark Odland:

Welcome to the Lion Counseling Podcast. Today, we're reacting to viral clips from Caleb Hammer and discussing a question that comes up constantly in psychology and relationships. Does being harsh actually help people change? Right.

Zack Carter:

For those of you who haven't seen Caleb Hammer, imagine Dave Ramsey mixed with Jerry Springer. He's super blunt, he's confrontational, and millions of people just love it. So let's get into the first clip, and let's let's get a taste. Let's see what he's like.

Caleb Hammer:

Don't fucking spend a $120,000 in a year. You dumbass make it $30,000.

Guest 1 on Hammer:

A lot of this stuff are one time purchases that are not going to be made in subsequent them to survive. One time purchases. Need them to survive. One

Caleb Hammer:

time purchases. And you need them to survive.

Guest 1 on Hammer:

This is what I'm talking about. One time purchases

Caleb Hammer:

To survive.

Guest 1 on Hammer:

That are not going to be made in 2025.

Caleb Hammer:

Doesn't matter.

Guest 1 on Hammer:

You need them to survive. So our spending Hey. Hey. You You did. Our spending is gonna go down because of those one time purchases are no longer on the budget.

Guest 1 on Hammer:

Next

Caleb Hammer:

year, maybe you'll wanna buy a chin. The spending that you did last year that are one time, you're gonna find one time purchases next year.

Guest 1 on Hammer:

So how about we go into the finances and look what we can fix?

Caleb Hammer:

Buddy, here's the fix. Get spammed.

Zack Carter:

This is this is this is definitely a guilty pleasure. No. Like, he's so so brutal. You know, the question that came up for me, Mark Yeah. And I I wanna start with you

Mark Odland:

on this

Zack Carter:

is, does this approach work? Does yelling at people, does cussing at people actually work in real life? It's great TV. It's so fun if you're not the one being yelled at, for sure. But what do you think?

Zack Carter:

Does this does this kind of confrontational confrontation actually work?

Guest 1 on Hammer:

Well,

Mark Odland:

it doesn't typically work with couples therapy. I'll tell you that. I mean, that it doesn't work. When when when emotions escalate, nervous systems get activated. All sorts of old arguments come to the surface, and people are defending their ego.

Mark Odland:

They're defending their character. It becomes personal. Now you're arguing about 10 things instead of the one thing you're supposed to actually be talking about. So, yeah, not so great for relationships. Not typically great in the workplace either.

Mark Odland:

I mean, you know, every once in a while, you know, we'll we'll have a client who's a high power CEO type guy, and he's actually gotten pretty far by using fear and intimidation and yelling at people. But then things start to break down, and you find out people don't respect you. They're operating out of fear. It's so it's actually a a flaw in leadership, essentially, to be able to do that. But, yeah, it makes great TV.

Mark Odland:

It makes great I mean, you maybe have a different perspective, Zach. There might be some, like, occasions where yelling works better. Maybe for certain kinds of personalities who don't respond well to, like, calm. You have to almost, like, match fire for fire. You kinda match their nervous system.

Mark Odland:

So I don't know. What what are you thinking?

Zack Carter:

Are Yeah. I think I'm I I think you're nailing it. So first off, just commenting on a couple things you said. So Gottman calls it criticism and defensiveness, and you can see it in this clip. Don't spend a $120,000 a year or whatever the amount was.

Zack Carter:

And he's like, it was on one time purchases. So what happened there? Caleb Hammer criticized him. He got defensive. He wasn't hearing what was going on.

Zack Carter:

So, like, in that moment, as loud as Caleb Hammer was being, he wasn't he he wasn't being heard. This guy didn't actually hear him. So in general, yeah, I think you're right. I think most people aren't going to respond well to this approach and that it is, but it does make for good TV. So there are probably a few exceptions.

Zack Carter:

That it may work. So, for instance, boot camp in the military, it seems like that process works. And I wonder if it's something like hazing in college where if you go through this awful thing together and part of the awfulness is being yelled at and being criticized and made fun of, that you, like, bond together with the people that you're around. But it's not real you're not isolated. Like, everyone is kind of going through it together.

Zack Carter:

And so maybe that's the difference. The example that comes to my mind where this doesn't work but people think it does is interventions in the in the addiction world. So we've we've seen it in the movies where you get the main character walks through the door and, like, there's a family in the living room, and then there's, like, the the awkward therapist that's like, we've we're all gathered here to talk to you about your problem. So a lot of people think that intervention style is what you're supposed to do if you have someone who is an addict in your family that has an addiction. That you like get together as a group.

Zack Carter:

And in some ways it can work, but it really depends on how you approach it. So if you approach it in a shameful way, you're shaming the person into getting treatment. Usually that are often that can that can work in the moment, but in the medium to long term, their sobriety usually doesn't last. And so this is where we get into guilt versus shame. That if you if you do intervention approaches where, okay, guilt might happen, but you begin setting boundaries, Right?

Zack Carter:

So you reduce the enabling, you improve communication, you help them if they want it with reinforcing sobriety behaviors. You allow natural consequences. That kind of thing can really work.

Mark Odland:

Yeah.

Zack Carter:

But just shaming someone like what we're seeing in this Caleb Hammer clip often doesn't work. Any any last thoughts before we get to our next clip?

Mark Odland:

Well, I'm just trying to imagine if it wasn't a financial intervention and it was therapy, how we'd approach it. And then, yeah, it would be pretty pretty different. It'd be like, okay. Yeah. So one time purchases.

Mark Odland:

Tell me how that why that makes you feel better about it. Mhmm. Okay. Exactly. Okay.

Mark Odland:

Thanks for sharing that. So it sounds like there's a part of you that feels like the one time purchases thing is working, and it's gonna be maybe set you up for success next year with not having to make those purchases, and yet you're here in my office. Mhmm. And that tells me some you know, deep down something's still off. Something's not right about this whole thing.

Mark Odland:

Mhmm. Are you willing to share more about that? Mhmm. Right? So you you kind of validate, you meet them where they're at, and then you redirect to something that's subtly challenging without pushing them over the edge.

Zack Carter:

Exactly. People people tend not to like to be told what to do, but people do appreciate good questions that draws the answer out of them. Right. Okay. So you have this problem financially.

Zack Carter:

What do you think you should do about it? Sometimes they don't have the answer. And that's where we may say, okay, well, here are some things that typically work. Here's like three things. Sure.

Zack Carter:

Anything stick out that you think you might be willing to do? Or did anything get jiggered in your mind where you're like, oh, actually, these don't work, but this thing over here would I think would work. Okay. Cool. Like, why don't we try that and see what happens?

Zack Carter:

And people usually respond better with that versus the the shame. So I love your I love where you're going with how you would do it in a in a therapy session. So as I pull up this next clip, keep that in mind on how how would you handle this person in a therapy session.

Caleb Hammer:

Alright. You can't work a job because of your dog separation anxiety. At that point, you are not going to survive in society. And there is no budget I can make.

Guest 2 on Hammer:

My therapist has come to the recommendation that I not have a direct boss.

Caleb Hammer:

Girl, you're not gonna survive. Everyone has a boss.

Guest 2 on Hammer:

Do you?

Caleb Hammer:

Yes. The audience.

Guest 2 on Hammer:

Uh-huh.

Caleb Hammer:

I have a boss. The platform that I'm on, I have to follow the rules and regulations

Zack Carter:

Mhmm. Or

Caleb Hammer:

else no no money. Every month, it is getting more competitive to get a remote job. More people are getting laid off in tech, and everyone wants a remote job. You are competing with the top of the top of the top. In person is what gets you an income next week.

Caleb Hammer:

We can get you an in person job. In person

Guest 2 on Hammer:

job, where am I gonna put my dog for an in person job? She has severe separation anxiety, and she ate through my door.

Caleb Hammer:

You might have to surrender the dog if you cannot survive as a human being. Because if you're not able to survive, they're not able to survive. You can't work a

Zack Carter:

He's so good. He's just he's such good TV. I mean, you can't you can't fault him for it. Like, he says all the things you're thinking. Well, I mean, honestly, I think he he's he I think he did a pretty good job.

Mark Odland:

I mean, he was he wasn't yeah. I don't he wasn't yelling. He yeah. More harsh than my style would be. Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. And, again, you you might try to draw that out of the person versus just laying it on him. Mhmm. But I think it's a reality check. It's a reality check to say, like, this might sound good, but and this is Jordan Peterson's whole critique of modern therapy.

Mark Odland:

And that goes back to another podcast we did recently, about, on the Megyn Kelly show. Right? They had this whole thing about whether therapy is helping or hurting people today. And and therapy has to not just feel good. It's not just a therapist nodding their head and saying, you're right.

Mark Odland:

You're right. You're right. You go. You're awesome. It's yeah.

Mark Odland:

There's some of that. There's some caring, but there's challenge. Good therapy tends to not only make you feel like you have a supportive place to go where you're not gonna be, like, totally judged, but also someone who's gonna tell you the truth. Someone's gonna stretch you to the edge of your comfort zone Mhmm. And build your resiliency.

Mark Odland:

Mhmm. And I think Hammer intuitively sees that in her. And even though maybe he's operating out of being annoyed by her, I mean, I don't know what his motivation is. You could also say the same things from a genuine place of care. Being like, I don't think this trajectory, this momentum is leading you toward life and prosperity.

Mark Odland:

It kinda looks like someone who's gonna get even worse with their anxiety and have a huge gap in their resume, And it's gonna be harder and harder to get a good job in the years to come. For sure.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Yeah. And I and I wonder how much of this is like Gordon Ramsey. Like, there's Gordon Ramsey, the TV personality, and then there's, like, Gordon Ramsey, the person. And so once again, don't wanna say like, this is not a critique of Caleb Hammer.

Zack Carter:

He's, being good TV. Yeah. But if he if he came to me, he was like, alright. I'm thinking about being a therapist. How would you approach this person who is not willing to go and have a direct supervisor?

Zack Carter:

She presented like the moment he's like, you just need to go get an in person job. She immediately had a reply of, well, what am I going to do with my dog? And so that's very common when people just try to throw out a solution that oftentimes if you don't understand the full context, your suggestions are gonna get shut down. So if I was like, all right, Caleb, maybe a better way is to say, all right, what are the things that are preventing you from getting an in person job right now? And she would like list the things and then you go through each of those things and say like, okay, well, what are what are some ways to work around that so that you can make money?

Zack Carter:

And so for the dog, he's like, you just need to get rid of the dog. My guess is she's not gonna get rid of the dog. And so are there some creative solutions that we can come through? And maybe it's, hey, my mom might be able to watch my dog three days a week. All right, cool.

Zack Carter:

Then why don't we start with a part time job in person where your mom can watch your dog three days a week? And, like, she's now a part of the process of change as opposed to just being, like, told this is what you have to do.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I love that. I think getting practical and and realizing what we're fighting against. Because people have pretty entrenched belief systems and patterns, and they might say they want help with something, but deep down, it feels so scary or would take so much work that if they're honest with themselves, they don't wanna do it. And so it becomes kinda going through the motions, playing lip service to it.

Mark Odland:

Mhmm. I mean, the the kind of not so nice part of me when she said, he literally chewed through the door. Mhmm. I wanted to say, maybe you need to buy a metal door. You know?

Mark Odland:

He chewed through the couch. Maybe you need to have a room where it doesn't have furniture that he can destroy.

Caleb Hammer:

Mhmm. Mhmm.

Zack Carter:

So so well, what's interesting is that even you in this moment were thinking of creative solutions outside of getting rid of the dog. Because I don't most pet owners, that's not an option. Like, you tell them you need to get rid of that. Probably, you're probably not going to convince a pet owner to get rid of their pet. Maybe sometimes you you can, but most of the time.

Zack Carter:

You know, I grew up with pet owners. I am a pet owner. It's not going to it's not going to fly for most people. That's great. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

We've got two clips of Caleb yelling at people. In fairness to him, I wanted to show a clip where he used a different approach. So let's get into that. Let's do it.

Caleb Hammer:

So I promised that I would pay your four zero one k loan, which is $1,700 if you've remained sober. You consented to a test before this, which obviously we would have needed to do a test to make sure that you're not sober, but we did the test. Noah. Yes, it is. Is he the father?

Caleb Hammer:

Wow. Okay. So we're good. Throughout this entire process, have you relapsed at all? Have not.

Caleb Hammer:

That's very good. It's been I wouldn't have punished you if you did, but I'm very glad to hear that. It's definitely been rough on Sundays. Do you have your Venmo? I do.

Caleb Hammer:

If you wanna bring up that QR code. I don't have my phone on me. Left it out in the lobby. Oh, go you can go get it. There you go.

Caleb Hammer:

Payment made, sir. So I

Zack Carter:

No. The creature's heart grew three three sizes that day.

Mark Odland:

Are you thinking about using that, technique with your account your client, Zach?

Zack Carter:

I'll I'll pay them to be sober. Yeah.

Mark Odland:

I mean, they eventually get sober, and then you basically give back all the money they paid you for counseling fees for the last three months.

Zack Carter:

That's right.

Caleb Hammer:

It's a wash.

Mark Odland:

It's a wash.

Zack Carter:

It's a quick way for me to go bankrupt. Your your wife would love that that strategy. She would love it. She would love it. Well, in the in this clip, what comes to mind for me and then then I'll throw it to you is something called operant conditioning and in psychology, operant conditioning is the idea of reward and punishment.

Zack Carter:

So, a lot of the clips that we've seen is punishment. I'm going to shame you publicly. I'm going to yell at you. I am going to insult you into behavior change. Then we have this other clip where Caleb is using reward.

Zack Carter:

Hey. If you stay away from alcohol for a year, I'm going to pay off one of these loans for you. And what the what the studies show is reward tends to work better than punishment. That's what the studies show. And so if you have people in your household, whether it's kids or your wife, and there are certain things you're hoping to happen, reward tends to be the better way to go.

Zack Carter:

So, for instance, if your wife does something that you appreciate, noticing that and mentioning, hey, I really liked how you complimented me a minute ago when I took the trash out. I know that doesn't always happen and I don't need it, but that really makes me feel good when you do that. She's now being told like, Hey, here are the things I like, and I think you're doing a great job by doing this, which actually makes it more likely in the future for her to do that for you. The opposite approach is why don't you ever compliment me when I do chores around the house? That's criticism, which leads to, like we said earlier, defensiveness.

Zack Carter:

Compliment you. Do you know how how much I do in the house? Are you insane? Right? So oftentimes that reward is gonna tend to be better than the punishment route.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. I think there's something to that. I think, it seems to work for kids. Seems to work for pets. We've got a new puppy, so we're learning a lot about that right now.

Mark Odland:

You just wanna make sure, the reward matches the species. So, like, for for instance, like, if you end up giving your wife a dog treat and saying good job, honey. Not good.

Zack Carter:

Not good. Not good. Is from personal experience? This is what you found out? Thought you

Mark Odland:

told me that you did that a couple weeks ago. No. No. I no.

Zack Carter:

No. I was just confused as to why this is coming to mind for you right now. You wanna tell me more about that, Mark?

Mark Odland:

What's your rate again, Zach?

Zack Carter:

Yeah. No. I I think I think

Mark Odland:

it's true. And I think, sometimes it's hard for us as guys and the guys that we work with. We we deal with a lot of high functioning guys who are crushing it in their industry, and there's such a fear of being a pushover in their home that sometimes they lean too far toward being the authoritarian because they have to convince themselves they're not a pushover. They're not weak. They're not, crushing it at work, but this kind of passive guy in the home.

Mark Odland:

And so they overcorrect to be kind of the punishment guy.

Caleb Hammer:

Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

And, honestly, a lot of times it's for lack of planning and consistency and and just having a game plan. And if they took 10% of that energy they put toward their business plan into their family plan or their parenting plan or their, you know, make our marriage better plan, No. It doesn't mean you're a pushover. It means you still have boundaries. You still have structure.

Mark Odland:

You still have expectations. There's still consequences. But fear and punish you know, fear, shame, they they tend to drive wedges in relationships.

Zack Carter:

Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

And yeah. So, I mean, if you if you can get it with honey instead of vinegar, probably better in most cases.

Zack Carter:

Yeah. Yeah. So in in last thought on my end before we we start to wrap is, are you saying, Zach, to never use punishment? No. I didn't say always or never.

Zack Carter:

Like we've talked about in other videos, let's not do all or nothing thinking. It tends to work better if you use reward, and at times punishment can be appropriate. And so it's it's good to know. It's good to be able to switch between those two those two those two strategies. Yeah.

Zack Carter:

And knowing when is it appropriate to do it. Know that, hey, like you said, vinegar tends to work or sorry, honey tends to work better than vinegar. Correct.

Mark Odland:

Yeah, that's right. And and there is something to be said, just a quick thought, like, take it back at parenting, for example, is, you know, your kid doesn't wanna wear a coat to school when it's when it's a brisk fall day, especially here in Minnesota. Right? Mhmm. You could have this whole thing before you get in the car trying to force them to put their coat on or reward them for putting their coat on or punish them them if they don't put their coat on.

Mark Odland:

Or there also could be like, alright, buddy. If that's what you really wanna do, let's see how it goes today. And and they are freezing, and they learn an important life lesson that day. That this is how the world works and you smash up against things. And if you don't make good decisions, you feel the consequences of it, and it's built into nature.

Mark Odland:

It's built into creation. It didn't even have to come from the parent. The punishment was built into the cold that made their their their skin shiver that day. Right? So this isn't a parenting class, but, the the operant conditioning thing was was good, Zach.

Mark Odland:

I appreciate you bringing that up.

Zack Carter:

Mhmm.

Mark Odland:

Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Alright. This is good good stuff, Zach.

Mark Odland:

You've kinda primed the pump. Maybe there'll be more Caleb Hammer in the future. Let us know in the comments below if you'd like to see us, engage more with this guy and and his stuff. I know Zack, you have a background in finance and doing a little financial coaching is something that's not out of the realm of possibility in addition to the life coaching and and and counseling stuff. But if you're enjoying this content, like, subscribe.

Mark Odland:

It actually makes a big difference for our channel. And and so thank you for listening, and until next time. Check out escapethecagenow.com if you'd like to book a clarity call with me or Zach, and have a great day. Talk to you soon.