Journey to the Sunnyside

Beej Karpen is a mindfulness-based coach and IFS practitioner who helps people change their relationship with alcohol in a more compassionate way, without shame, labels, or all-or-nothing thinking. She created Mindful Drinking 101 in 2020, has led more than 35 groups, and has spent the past 12 years running the first Moderation Management Women’s meeting In this episode, we talk about what is really happening underneath the urge to drink, why shame backfires, how IFS changes the way people understand inner conflict, and why the part of you that wants relief is not the enemy.

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Mike Hardenbrook
#1 best-selling author of "No Willpower Required," neuroscience enthusiast, and habit change expert.

What is Journey to the Sunnyside?

Journey to the Sunnyside is a top 1% podcast, reaching over 500,000 listeners every week. It’s your guide to exploring mindful living with alcohol—whether you're cutting back, moderating, or thinking about quitting.

While Sunnyside helps you reduce your drinking, this podcast goes further, diving into topics like mindful drinking, sober curiosity, moderation, and full sobriety. Through real stories, expert insights, and science-backed strategies, we help you find what actually works for your journey.

Hosted by Mike Hardenbrook, a #1 best-selling author and neuroscience enthusiast, the show is dedicated to helping people transform their relationship with alcohol—without shame, judgment, or rigid rules.

This podcast is brought to you by Sunnyside, the leading platform for mindful drinking. Want to take the next step in your journey? Head over to sunnyside.co for a free 15-day trial.

Disclaimer: The views expressed in our episodes do not necessarily represent those of Sunnyside. We’re committed to sharing diverse perspectives on health and wellness. If you’re concerned about your drinking, please consult a medical professional. Sunnyside, this podcast, and its guests are not necessarily medical providers and the content is not medical advice. We do not endorse drinking in any amount.

Speaker 1:

Today I'm joined by Bije Karpen, a mindfulness based coach and IFS practitioner, who helps people change their relationship with alcohol in a more compassionate way, without shame, labels, or all or nothing thinking. She created the Mindful Drinking one hundred one in 2020, has led more than 35 groups, and spent the last twelve years running the first moderation management women's meeting. In this episode, we talk about what's really happening underneath the urge to drink, why shame backfires, how IFS changes the way people understand inner conflict, and why the part of you that wants relief is not the enemy. Okay, Bish. Thanks for coming on today.

Speaker 2:

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

Well, let's just jump right into it because I wanna learn a little bit more about your background. And for people who are new to your work, can you give us a sense of what you do and what led you into this area in the first place?

Speaker 2:

Sure. Well, what do I do? I'm a coach certified through NYU, and I I work one on one with people who are developing a healthier relationship with alcohol. That's one of the things I do. I also work with people who have other issues, not alcohol related, and I work with couples as well.

Speaker 2:

And I run mindful drinking workshops and and that kind of thing. So I how I ended up here? Was that the question? Would you like to know that?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Give us give us the background. Okay.

Speaker 2:

Well, I was minding my own business playing the oboe professionally. That was all I did for a living forever. Not that there's anything wrong with that. And I started kind of taking a look at my own drinking. It it escalated during a divorce, a really problematic divorce, would say.

Speaker 2:

Not that any divorce is a picnic, but this one was particularly challenging time in my life. And so the drinking was on an uptick, went to see a therapist. She was great, we really connected, and she was very nurturing until I mentioned, you know, the amount I was drinking and being concerned about it. And all of a sudden, she just kind of said, woah, you then, you know, she kinda backed off and said, oh, you should go to AA. And to me, that just felt like a betrayal.

Speaker 1:

Mhmm. You know?

Speaker 2:

It felt like I had been so connected with this person and feeling so trusting, and and and suddenly she was just like, oh, no. You need to go to this other place with these people you don't know and and say these things that you don't believe, and It made no sense to me. So my solution was to quit therapy and just keep drinking

Speaker 1:

for like

Speaker 2:

another ten years or something until I suddenly woke up one day and just said I this is not me. This is not how I wanna live my life. And so I found a harm reduction therapist, and at the same time I started going to Buddhist meditation classes. I sat down in a meditation cushion. I like to say I sat on a meditation cushion and my life changed, basically.

Speaker 2:

I developed a strong meditation practice, mindfulness practice, and just it's kind of I was sitting in a class called contentment in everyday life at the Shambhala Center, and they were saying, you know, when what when do you feel contentment in your life? When do you feel content? And everyone was saying, oh, you play the oboe for a living. You must be happy all the time and peaceful. I was like, no.

Speaker 2:

That's not it. But I really kind of did some deep thinking about what is it about playing the oboe, and I realized it was the capacity to help people heal. And it it never dawned me that I was actually I hate to say I'm a healer, you know, that sounds so pretentious, but that there is that part of me that that likes to find like to heal parts of other people. And so from there it just became clear I was supposed to do. I was supposed to become a coach and train in all these different modalities.

Speaker 2:

It just became clear, each one I did, I was telling you earlier before we started recording, taking Andrew Tatarski's year long harm reduction psychotherapy course, training to be a Buddhist teacher, training to be a coach, and then starting to work with people one on one and finding, realizing how much trauma people had in their systems and their backgrounds, and realizing I needed to learn how to work with trauma. I did a three year somatic experiencing practitioner training. And then that led me to doing some work training as clinical hypnotist. And then I find I found IFS, internal family systems, which is where I landed because it kind of took all the other modalities that I'd already learned and put them into one one neat model. So that was a very long answer to your question.

Speaker 2:

Question. I hope that's okay.

Speaker 1:

All good all good things that that everybody listening wants to know because I think with good information, you like to know where's the source that it's coming from. What's the point of view? And I think you said something there that I'd I'd like to ask because I think many people feel disconnected with some of the options traditionally, specifically around the abstinence only and, you know, all or nothing model, which is you felt this sense of betrayal. What part of that experience made you feel betrayal? Was it was it that they were just so disconnected from you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I felt not seen. Yeah. I felt like she suddenly put me in a category. Oh, you're this.

Speaker 2:

You need to go there instead of you're a person who's developed coping mechanisms for to help you get with through what you're going through. And now I can see that you're not happy about that, and let's work together. It didn't feel collaborative anymore.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. It's all all of a sudden, you had an identity placed on you that you didn't identify with based on behavior.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

So you work with people that will call it the gray area of drinking. You know? And you actually use the phrase welcome to the gray. What does that mean to capture that maybe traditional alcohol conversations usually miss?

Speaker 2:

Welcome to gray. Well, first of all, I love it because it it defines it defines it acknowledges the gray area that so many people find themselves in who are not, you know, full fledged alcoholic, whatever their definition of that is, but they're also not happy with how they're drinking. So they're they're in that that gray area, and the welcome is is just like, it's okay. Your gray drink gray area drinking parts are welcome here. You know?

Speaker 2:

Let's get to know them. Let's have you welcome them in so we can get to know them so maybe they will they will work for you in a in a different way, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1:

It does. It does. What do you think that changes when someone no longer feels forced into that label and they they are welcomed into the gray.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. You can see it on their faces. You know? It's like, oh, you mean I'm I'm not I'm not bad.

Speaker 2:

I'm not inherently bad. I don't have to keep shaming myself. I've just developed some patterns and some habits, and I wanna work on those things. So it's a much more a much kinder view of oneself.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's not like this diagnosis that now includes, oh, for the rest of my life, it's gonna be this way. I'm gonna go there.

Speaker 1:

I'm gonna have conversations around this, and it'll never go away. Right?

Speaker 2:

And Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I think that permanence and moving into this is actually something that I can address and change is empowering.

Speaker 2:

Yes. Yes. Exactly.

Speaker 1:

So some some relief probably, you know, also. Like, oh, not different. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1:

Well, in your work, you're

Speaker 2:

And there are many other people. Yeah. And and to learn that there are many other people. Like, when I first started kind of getting curious and concerned about my own drinking, I was like, I can't be the only person on the planet who does is not happy with how they're drinking but doesn't consider themselves an alcoholic. You know?

Speaker 2:

And that's how I found moderation management. It was just how I found my harm reduction therapist. And and I've been running a a women's meeting for moderation management for twelve years now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, I think in my own experience, that was something that I realized. I mean, it it it feels so isolating at first, but you come to realize that you're not alone. It's quite common. And in the work that I'm doing now, you know, people from all the way back in the college days will reach out, and it's kinda like hush-hush.

Speaker 1:

Hey. You know, I saw you what you're doing. This is kinda what I'm experiencing. And, like, usually, the first thing I say to them is just like, this is so common. Like, do not feel like you're an edge case and you're coming to me.

Speaker 1:

Like, I hear it over and over again, and I'm confidential on it, but people you know also are coming with the same issues.

Speaker 2:

That's right. Yeah. That's right.

Speaker 1:

Well, you use something called the internal family systems to help people look at drinking through the lens of different parts of the self. What changes when someone stops seeing it as a simple maybe willpower problem?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I love that question. Simple willpower problem. There's nothing simple about it. Right?

Speaker 2:

I mean, willpower really relies on one part of the brain. Right? The prefrontal cortex, which completely goes offline toward the end of the day. We're tired, and especially if we've had a drink or two. So if we all stayed in that prefrontal cortex all the time, we wouldn't be having this conversation, right?

Speaker 2:

But IFS, it's a therapeutic modality that helps people get to know all of their inner parts. A lot of people talk about inner child work. And so that's part of this process. It's learning about those wounded inner children and the rebellious older teenagers that might be protecting them. Right?

Speaker 2:

Yep. You don't want them to feel those wounds, so we're gonna we're gonna do this instead. The inner critics, which, you know, sometimes seem like they're being mean, but actually are trying to help. The the whole premise of IFS is that all of these parts are trying to help. I get a lot of pushback on that, especially about the inner critic.

Speaker 2:

But once people get to know their critics, they realize, oh, they're shaming me so that I don't keep doing this thing that other people are gonna shame me for or whatever it is.

Speaker 1:

Right? So

Speaker 2:

it's really it starts with the assumption that all parts are good. Dick Schwartz, who's the founder of the model, wrote a book last year called no bad parts. No bad parts. So it's getting to know all of those. And in my workshops that I run, I I I have people really get to know these parts, these inner negotiators, these inner soothers, these inner rebels, these inner critics.

Speaker 2:

We do a lot of, like, guided mindful journaling and things like that. So they really get to know these parts because what you do, they start to soften and they step back and they realize, oh, you, the wise adult, can be in the driver's seat. I don't have to jump in and run the show here. I don't have to jump in and have you drink. You're gonna be okay.

Speaker 2:

I see that. We actually I was in involved in a training at the High Watch Recovery Center last year or the year before where we an IFS staff went in and trained all of the therapists in the High Watch Recovery Center. Now this place is a 12 step center, and it is the place where Bill Dick's. No. Sorry.

Speaker 2:

Bill Bill what's his name? Bill

Speaker 1:

Is it Wadsman?

Speaker 2:

A a guy.

Speaker 1:

Bill Wilson?

Speaker 2:

Bill Wilson. Thank you. Brain brain just went away for a second. Bill Bill Wilson wrote the big book there. Like, they have to say, oh, that's the little hut or cabin where he's staying, and he wrote the big book here.

Speaker 2:

So I thought we went in there, and I thought they would be very closed off to hearing about a different way of working, you know, which was this IFS model where we develop compassion for all of these parts and they get to know all the parts that have their clients use or drink. And they get to see that once these parts feel seen, heard, understood, valued, validated, the SCHUVV acronym, they step back and they soften. And so we were there for we spent one, two, three weeks with them, three separate weeks in person with them. And then one of the weeks was online, and then we went back and did level two for another week with them. And so what these therapists found was that it was a game changer for even their 12 step clients, where instead of shaming these parts, they were seeing how these parts were trying to bring value to their system, were trying to help them.

Speaker 2:

And just that way of viewing with kindness rather than punitiveness, right, made a huge, huge difference. And rather than shaming these parts, hey. How are you trying to help? You know, I'm here. Let's talk.

Speaker 2:

Right?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

So yeah.

Speaker 1:

That's great to hear that it was well received, you know, because I mean, at the end goal, everybody wants the same, which is to get people better. How to get there? Feeling better. Some people have different views and different sort of outlooks and attitudes around it, but but open mindedness, I think, is the best thing that all of us could have because there's something from us to learn from one another regardless of the path.

Speaker 2:

Yes. I I when I filled out my application to be on that staff, it was like, what are your concerns? And I was like, I might have some I might have some parts up about 12 stuff. Maybe just a little bit. But I went in there, and I, you know, I opened my mind.

Speaker 2:

I opened my heart, and and I did learn, and I did see the value in what they were doing too. You know, and and the tremendous heart that they bring to their work.

Speaker 1:

Give me a can you paint a picture for me of this inner conflict or this inner critic, what an example of that would look like in the work that you do?

Speaker 2:

The inner critic? Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Like, what would manifest in somebody's life, right, and how how you would correct that?

Speaker 2:

Well, I think that people they might have it running in the background, and sometimes it's so loud that they can hear and they know what it's doing. And a lot of times, it's a lot quieter. Like, the perfectionist parts that a lot of people have. And perfectionism has nothing to do with being perfect. It has everything to do with these parts telling you that you're not and you can't be, and there's nothing you can do that's gonna be enough.

Speaker 2:

So a lot of times, these people people have parts like that running in the background not even aware of. And once you start listening internally and you get to know those parts, then they will soften back. So there's a lot of critic criticalness in in people's systems. And that was the first thing that I noticed when I started the Women's Group twelve years ago in person in New York. And now it's online, of course, anybody can come, but was how much self loathing and how critical these women were of each other.

Speaker 2:

Of the not each other, of themselves.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Sure.

Speaker 2:

Of their parts. And and and I thought, oh my gosh. I've gotta help. And it was before I became a meditation teacher. And I would hire meditation teachers to come into the meetings to teach them the loving kindness practice, Buddhism, so that they could start practicing being kind to themselves because of these critical parts that that were so loud.

Speaker 2:

And the other thing I'm sure you know, Mike, I don't I don't have to tell you about the critic that shows up the next morning, right, after you've not stuck to your plan. Things haven't gone so well. And that's the big shamer critic. Right? And and people don't realize that, first of all, shame shame becomes the trigger.

Speaker 2:

Right? Whether it's parts of you shaming other parts of you or whether it's someone else shaming you. So many times partners think that they're gonna help by shaming shaming the drinker. You know? Oh, you shouldn't be doing it.

Speaker 2:

Look what you did. You're you're an idiot of yourself or whatever. And that the shame becomes the trigger. Whether Yeah. Whether people are shaming you about that or food or anything that you're doing, it can it can lead people to drink if that's their habit.

Speaker 2:

Right? So that critic that wakes up that wakes you up in the morning and beats you up, you know, I would just say that that is clinically proven not to be helpful.

Speaker 1:

No. It's not. And, you know, like, receiving criticism in those times, if you ever do, fortunately, that wasn't something that I had to deal with too much. But it's like, don't worry. I got all the criticism and self loathing handled right here.

Speaker 1:

I don't And, you know, I think the one of the things in the early days that I started to figure out for myself when I caught myself in those loops was that recognizing, first of all, biologically, I'm in a low state. And mentally and psychologically, I I'm also in a low state. So it was like, I'm not making I'm not doing anything today as far as big conclusions, what what path out also as far as, like, commitments. It's like, sometimes you just you can find a little bit of relief in just saying, today is not a big decision day. It's gonna pass, and tomorrow is another day, and just try and be kind to yourself in those times.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Go to go to the nail salon. Get a get a back massage or whatever.

Speaker 2:

You know? Like Yeah. Treat yourself as if you have the flu.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to make a conclusion about who you are and your identity and your self worth and all those today because that decision is not today is not the day to do it because it's not gonna end up well. Yeah. You know, when when we tie back into I think it's all interconnected like what we were talking about, the different parts of ourself and and being kind is all looped into urges, and getting through urges is really where we start to be able to see kind of the light at the end of the tunnel or some hope.

Speaker 1:

What's usually happening underneath those urges to drink? Is it more about, you know, the alcohol? Is it about the relief? Or, you know, like, how do you approach that?

Speaker 2:

Well, it's so different for everyone. But urges and when you think about it, if you wanna take it apart, and this is what I like to do. The urge an urge is made up of coincidentally the same three components that make up mindfulness, which is thoughts, body sensations, emotions. Right? So we have a thought, I need a drink.

Speaker 2:

Is it true? No. It's a thought. It feels true at the moment. Right?

Speaker 2:

So, you know, just looking at it as a thought. What's the body sensation? Usually, it's not expansive. Usually, it's contracted. If you know, somewhere it's tight.

Speaker 2:

And what's the emotion associated with it? And all kinds of different emotions, right, with the with urges. It can be anger. It can be sadness, loneliness. It can be elation.

Speaker 2:

It can be peaceful. I mean, you know, people have all kinds of drinking parts. Most people don't have just one. Yes. So it's it's really paying attention, and this is the mindfulness component looped in with the urge question.

Speaker 2:

It's paying attention not just to what's happening externally, but it's what's happening internally. It's pausing, noticing body sensations, emotions, thoughts.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I find that yeah. Like, when you find yourself stuck in that, I need a drink, you need to ask yourself the better question. What do you really need? What does the drink provide?

Speaker 2:

Yes. That's right. What what am I looking for? What am I looking to get from this? And that's one of the things I do in the in the group, in the workshops also is just keep asking that question and go deeper and deeper each time you ask it.

Speaker 2:

What's really needed?

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

What's really Right?

Speaker 1:

Because that's the shortcut, at least we think it is. You know? In short term, it works per Yeah. For many people. But, uh-huh, but we also know, as we were talking about with shame and self loathing, that that most certainly usually is to come afterwards.

Speaker 1:

Same with whatever problem or need that we had, it's just gonna come back and and in that state that I said, you know, like, not a great place to to address it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. If I Yeah.

Speaker 1:

If I were to look look back to the shame, because I think this is important, it's a good distinction, especially when it comes to mindfulness, mindful drinking, and moderation because some of the blowback would be, you know, you just need to get tough with yourself. You need to be accountable. So how do we how do people confuse maybe shame with accountability? You know, like, if you forego the shame, then you're not being accountable either.

Speaker 2:

Well, first of all, I I I've never met anyone who could forego shame, but

Speaker 1:

Is it?

Speaker 2:

I think I think it's always gonna be there, but accountability. Yeah. That's Or or being such an interesting question.

Speaker 1:

You know, being tough on yourself or overly accountable in an in a way that's not productive.

Speaker 2:

Right. Yeah. I think it's such an interesting juxtaposition, shame, accountability. If we don't shame ourselves, we won't be accountable. Not true.

Speaker 2:

Right? Accountability I I mean, if we were if I was gonna see look at this through an IFS lens, I would say accountability would be self led. And in IFS, self led means being led by a more curious and calm place in your system, and there are eight c's that go along with with the the self led persona, but or that's actually who we are at our core. Right? So accountability, if I can I I can be accountable without shaming myself now?

Speaker 2:

Right? I can I couldn't before, but now I can look and say, okay? I'm gonna look at my little calendar that I have and say, okay. I already had six drinks this week, and maybe I won't drink the next couple nights. That feels good.

Speaker 2:

That feels okay because it feels like it's coming from a reasonable place of self self led. But if I'm saying, goddamn it. I'm not gonna drink no more tonight. I drank too much last night. Then it's gonna turn into shame.

Speaker 1:

Right?

Speaker 2:

That's not really countable. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Back to that famous last line of, oh, I'm never drinking again. How often did

Speaker 2:

that work

Speaker 1:

for most of us? Right?

Speaker 2:

Did that work for you last time?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Well, if some people, you know, would say moderation is not really a realistic goal for some people, how do you think about that critique?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That's that's a good question. I hear that a lot. And a lot of people will say to me, well, when you how do you know if if moderation is gonna work for somebody? And first of all, I have no idea.

Speaker 2:

And I don't try to have an agenda with anybody or to assume anything because that's really up to them and their system to learn. But I would say that there are factors that get that can get involved that make it harder for some people to learn to moderate for sure. And some of those factors might be a lot of people with ADHD, severe ADHD, it's gonna be harder. If it's kinda mild, certain certain quirkiness with ADHD, it might not be so hard. But a lot of times with ADHD, it's like the mind is just going, going, going, going, going, and it feels the only thing that's gonna quiet it.

Speaker 2:

Right?

Speaker 1:

That that was me.

Speaker 2:

And that was you. Okay. So finding other things that can calm that, right, is gonna be challenging, but it's not impossible. Anxiety, depression, neurodiversity, you know, what's things that are going on in your life? The history of drinking can make it harder.

Speaker 2:

There's no actual gene for alcoholism that they've identified. There's several genes that go together that maybe these people might have a harder time with not drinking. So I think it's really just such an individual thing, and nobody can say who can do it and who can't. And people, if they're interested in trying it, they just need to try it, and those their system will let them know. It'll say, yeah.

Speaker 2:

No. Not for me. And a lot of people find that abstaining and I'm sure you know this, and you've probably heard this a million times. A lot of people find abstaining is easier than moderating because it's one decision. Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

Right? And moderating takes up a lot of mental real estate. Am I gonna drink tonight? How many am I gonna have? What am I gonna start?

Speaker 2:

Am I gonna delay? Am I gonna eat first? Am I gonna do all the things? Am I gonna do all you know? It's affecting all the rules, all the all the helpful tools that people have.

Speaker 2:

Or is my rebel gonna show up? You know? How do I plan for that? So there's, yeah, there's just a lot of gray in this area as as we've as we've as we've identified. And and, again, just I don't know if it's a realistic goal for someone or not.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. You know, they find out for themselves. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I think that well, first of all, I think most people know the answer to their question in many ways, and they're looking for outside validation from others. Is this the route I should go? Is this the route I should go? And they sort of avoid, like, the in the internal knowledge that they probably have around themselves.

Speaker 1:

It's like, yeah. I think I could do this or I'm not sure and continue to look for the answer instead of just trying it. And Yeah. I think unless you're in crisis mode or you have some high risk variability, just try it. You'll figure out.

Speaker 1:

Okay. It does work or it doesn't work for me. And and I'm with you. Honestly, I do think that abstinence is actually easier in many ways, at least speaking from my own personal experience, just because it is it's a binary decision. It's a yes or a no.

Speaker 1:

It's made. Yeah. There's gonna be difficult times, but not as many decisions are made thereafter.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I I I will say that I don't personally find it easier, but a lot of people do. I mean, I personally I mean, I'm happy with where I'm at, which is, you know, drinking within pretty much the NIAAA standards. Sometimes they don't drink at all for weeks. I don't really give it a lot of thought.

Speaker 2:

It doesn't take up a lot of mental real estate anymore. So I'm fine with that. And I wouldn't I don't wanna abstain just because I enjoy it. You know?

Speaker 1:

Stay same with me. And that's why, you know, I want

Speaker 2:

That's why we're here.

Speaker 1:

And travel, and I go to Spain, and I wanna have a glass of red wine, I don't wanna be like, no. You can't have that. First of all, the inner rebel for me won't be okay with that. But, also, I'd like to enjoy that. You know?

Speaker 1:

And and I don't have to go abstinent because it's I have a choice. You know? So so for but but when I do go longer periods, I do find it, you know, a couple months here and there or maybe even six months. Half that time, I find it quite easy because I'm just not even thinking about it in any capacity.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Right. Right. With me, it's more like, oh, I would like to have a glass of wine right now. Not like, I need a glass of wine.

Speaker 2:

You know? It's never it's never that anymore, hardly. Maybe. And then no no hard ones.

Speaker 1:

I mean, the thought will probably show up potentially, but because, you know, we're all human, and that just never yeah. That's just human nature. But, yeah, you but you also learn that that's not the moment to have it. And when you start to Yeah. Realize and remove that automatic behavior, then the entire relationship and use case is totally different.

Speaker 1:

Yep. Well, I wanna ask you this. For somebody stuck in that cycle of wanting to cut back, but maybe weight waking up with regret and even if they are cutting back and doing well and we always wanna concentrate on the bad, what do you most want them to understand in that journey?

Speaker 2:

Well, when you say concentrate on the bad, it's it's helpful for people to understand that the brain does have a negativity bias. Right. So it takes five I forget, five to 10 pieces of positive input to combat one piece of negative. So just to be aware of that, that I'm, you know, feeling like I'm never gonna be able to do this or whatever it is. And then you if you can just notice that and then say, oh, there's a part of me saying that, and maybe there's another part that knows that I, you know, maybe I can do this.

Speaker 2:

But also, if people if people are stuck in that cycle, I would say really reach out, get you know, go to some moderation management meetings, hear what other people are doing. They're very, very nonjudgmental. They're free. And and get some if you can afford therapy or coaching or if you can or if your insurance pays for it or something, just make sure if you're gonna go that route, you find someone that's moderation friendly who's not gonna just send you to AA and shame you.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

I mean, unless that's really what you'd like and what what you feel would be helpful. I mean, not the shaming, but the AA part. Right. Because it is helpful for some people. I don't mean to bash it at all.

Speaker 1:

No. No. I just think it's important to know, like and I think that's why we talk about this is that it's not the only option. And sometimes we have to be a bit loud about it because there will be people out there that will say it is the only option.

Speaker 2:

Well, I can say it wasn't for me. It's worked for me for twelve years. I guess I could still relapse. I don't think so at this point. And, you know, it works for some people.

Speaker 2:

And and and as you mentioned earlier, like, what's going on in your life? You know, a lot of times people can moderate really nicely for a while, and then suddenly there's like a a breakup or a death in the family or something that just feels like too hard. You know? And then at that point, you might wanna stop, hey. Woah.

Speaker 2:

I'm gonna maybe I just need to abstain for a while because it's gonna be too hard to find that that middle area, middle ground again right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. Life is is always evolving and changing, which also includes, like, whatever your goals are. You know? You can go from wanting to moderate to wanting to abstain.

Speaker 1:

So, like, things are always just going. So one last question. What would you want someone to stop saying to to themselves in in that route where they're feeling bad?

Speaker 2:

Is notice the difference between I'm not happy with something that I did, and I am inherently bad.

Speaker 1:

Mhmm.

Speaker 2:

Or I'm bad at my core. Right? In in Buddhism, there's a beautiful thing where they just believe believe everyone was born with with basic goodness. And that basically, we're good, and then things happen, trauma happens, and that's how people, you know, that seem to be evil get that way, right, because of their conditioning and experience in their trauma history. But to I I mean, if you can just believe that you're basically good and you made some mistakes like everybody does and that you have an opportunity to change, to change the brain, to change how you feel about yourself, to change your relationship with all of your inner children.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I think that's what I would say.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I love it. I love it. Okay. So you have some workshops coming up here, and I know that you're really excited about that.

Speaker 1:

And I'm sure anybody listening might be interested to hear a little bit more about that. So can you tell us what you have going on?

Speaker 2:

Sure. I've got a few things. The mindful drinking workshops, they're a six session series, and the next one starts I don't know when this is gonna air. The next one starts April, but I'm always running them, so feel free to reach out and find when the next one is. So those are group support.

Speaker 2:

And we we as I said earlier, we we look into the parts of the parts of ourselves that are involved in the drinking process, get to know them, learn how to practice self compassion and self kindness because it really has to be learned. We don't know this naturally in our society. And there are a lot of other things that are and I have, like, a I I do a lot of recordings and videos and and not of the actual workshops, but I have them put up so people can have them for lifetime access. And there's lots of resources on there and stuff like that as well. I break all the rules, and I have people get to know each other and pair off and communicate between the sessions and all of that.

Speaker 2:

If if you're interested in that, take a look on my website, which is insightoutnyc.com. That's insightnyc.com. I also run, as I mentioned earlier, the Wednesday Women's Moderation Management meeting. Moderation Management is a support network for people who are changing their relationship with alcohol. And I run their Wednesday women's meeting from 06:30 to 07:30PM on Zoom every Wednesday.

Speaker 2:

If you're interested in that, you can go on the moderation.org website and find that meeting. And email me at consciousdrinking@Gmail.com. If you can spell conscious, then you can email me. Or you can email me through the website too. That's fine.

Speaker 2:

The other thing I have coming up is New York Insight Meditation Center. I'm gonna be teaching a class there on meeting the parts that disturb our peace, a mindfulness based writing workshop. So that's gonna be May 2 from ten to one eastern, and that's in person at New York Insight and also online. And you they'll they will send you the recording afterward if you can't make the actual time. And that's with I'm gonna be teaching with a Buddhist teacher who's an author as well, and so it's a mindful journaling workshop based on IFS work.

Speaker 2:

And the other thing is every Tuesday morning, I have a free or by donation, my mindfulness meditation class, which is fun. It's 08:30 to nine eastern every Tuesday AM. And it is just a sweet group of people who just wanna come and sit and breathe together, just meditate. And I usually give some mindfulness tips or read a poem or something or just tell a hilariously funny story, and then a guide for seventeen minutes or so and twenty minutes maybe. And then we have four or five minutes for anybody that wants to share reflections.

Speaker 2:

It's a it's a very lovely time, and anybody's welcome to that meditation class.

Speaker 1:

Amazing. Well, Bij, it sounds like you got a ton of things going on. If anybody wants to check those out, sounds like you got free and paid. So, you know, just giving a lot back. And the moderation management, I interviewed Andrea Payne, I think it was about a month ago.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful. And and moderation management aligns so much to the philosophies around helping people that we do here at Sunnyside as well, and we're great friends. So happy to support that and really glad to hear you doing that.

Speaker 1:

And, of course, you're good friends with our friend, Andrew Chitarski, who's just incredible. And so I just wanna thank you so much for coming on today and sharing and hope people got something out of this and reach out to you.

Speaker 2:

Aw. Thank you, Mike. Thank you very much for having me on.