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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
But we also want a great culture. We want it to be a great place to work. We wanna attract the top of the top, and we wanna retain and and reward the top of the top. And oftentimes, we don't understand what goes into that. And I think the HR profession as a whole, some of the things that, at least from an outsider, feels like are taught are the things that we we have to follow to keep our job and to keep us out of jail, which are very important.
Kurt Wilkin:And, it doesn't feel like enough of the other. Like, how do we make this a great place to work? And how do I help you achieve your strategic goals, entrepreneur, as opposed to making sure you don't end up in jail.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, and this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow rate and review Good Morning HR wherever you get your podcasts. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or@goodmorninghr.com. In 2023, there were a record breaking number of new businesses created in the US.
Mike Coffey:According to the Census Bureau, just under 5,500,000 business applications were filed. Many, if not most, of these startups are created by entrepreneurial founders with vision and determination to succeed, damn the torpedoes. But their people practices don't always line up with those of larger, more established firms, or in some cases, the law. Joining me today to discuss people leadership in entrepreneurial firms is Curt Wilkin. Curt is cofounder of Hire Better, an Austin based national recruiting firm working directly with leaders of high growth companies to build game changing teams.
Mike Coffey:He's a serial entrepreneur with multiple successful exits who has helped 100 of entrepreneurs and CEOs build their own companies. He's also the author of the best selling book, Who's Your Mike? A No Bullshit Guide to the People You'll Meet on Your Entrepreneurial Journey. Welcome to Good Morning HR, Kurt.
Kurt Wilkin:Hey, Mike. Thanks so much for having me. Your intro resonated, especially the part about, entrepreneurs being basically above the law, and, they have people problems. So
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Yeah. And, I think well, I say our biggest problem is always between our own own two ears. That was my, my vintage coach for years. That was the thing she always went back to is that, you know, most of our problems are really between our ears, but the second thing is always people.
Mike Coffey:I you know, know, you can have great strategy, but if you don't have the right people to execute, anything's gonna happen. So so that's why I was excited to have you on and, and talk about this because I know a lot of HR folks who work for small to medium size, especially younger startup businesses. And it's a challenge because they're used to, you know, they grew up in in a Lockheed or a larger, you know, type, firm. So let's start with just a cliff notes version of your book. Who's Mike?
Mike Coffey:And I'm scared to ask. What do we need to know about him and the rest of the characters in your book?
Kurt Wilkin:Well, I will say this. My HR chapter starts with the the quote, everybody hates HR, source every entrepreneur ever. Yeah. And so it's fun to come in here and talk a little bit about why HR is important and and so forth. So the premise behind the book was I wanted to tell a book about stories because I think most entrepreneurs learn from stories, and honestly, I think most business books are they're hard to read if I'm being honest.
Kurt Wilkin:And so, I wrote an article about 10 years ago called Who's Your Mike? And that became the impetus for the book. So Mike is basically your your best bud. He's your maybe your fraternity brother in college. He learned, maybe took 3 hours of accounting in college, learned QuickBooks, became your your accountant when you're starting your business in your garage.
Kurt Wilkin:Over the years, he gets promoted to controller and then the the sexy title of CFO because that sounds very logical to be keep, promoting Mike. But man, entrepreneur looks up 10 years later or 5 years later, and he's doing 10, 15, 20,000,000 in revenue. Mike has never built a team. He's never done this before. He's really in over his skis, and he doesn't want to tell you.
Kurt Wilkin:He's so loyal to you, and he wants to be there for you, but you could tell he's struggling. The question is, who's your mic as an entrepreneur? Every entrepreneur either has a mic, has had, or will have a mic. It's like death and taxes. Everybody's got an employee that they've outgrown.
Kurt Wilkin:And then each different chapter is an archetype like that. I want entrepreneurs to be able to see these different characters in their lives and see how other people dealt with those situations, and then be able to make their own determine determination of what to do, based on their own experiences and what they're seeing in the book.
Mike Coffey:Book. In the book, you talk about the entrepreneurial companies as they start out and then as they grow and scale and how they kind of evolve. Can you kinda talk about that evolution?
Kurt Wilkin:Yeah. In the early days, almost every employee has to be like entrepreneur, willing to roll up their sleeves and do anything. So you might have your marketing person also handles your customer service and your logistics and your finance, and all that stuff is very typical. And those are very great employees to have and necessary in those early days. As you continue to grow, I believe that that you start needing some more specialists instead of generalists.
Kurt Wilkin:So we need a marketing person who has built and developed a marketing strategy and a plan. And so the generalists that we have often can't do that. Sometimes they can, and sometimes they have the experience, but oftentimes they can't. So part of what I do is help entrepreneurs navigate that no man's land, so to speak, and start building their their next level team.
Mike Coffey:And that's always the real challenge with startups. I, you know, I'm a member of EO. I've been an accelerator coach. And when do you hire that first professional? At what point, you know, how do you figure the ROI on hiring this marketing person rather than outsourcing it or, or just doing it myself, you know, and those are those are challenges that early stage entrepreneurs, you know, encounter.
Mike Coffey:And a lot of times, your more traditional corporate Folks don't get it. You know, if you can't afford to hire a CHRO and a CFO and, you know, you're not really a business. So how do you how do you do that, that cost accounting to figure out when when the right time is to hire, that next level of person?
Kurt Wilkin:Man, that's a great question. I will say that the entrepreneurs who try to do it themselves are never gonna be able to grow and scale beyond them. So there's a lot of folks out there like that. I'm sure many of your clients and your EO friends, for sure, fit that category. As far as when to bring in the next level talent, that's there's really more art than science, and it often depends on the other types of people on your team and where the biggest gap is.
Kurt Wilkin:I will say this. Oftentimes, last week, I heard you had a podcast about fractional executives. That is a great resource for an area like marketing where you need the strategy and the plan, but you also need someone to execute the plan is maybe not as costly as the leader. That might be an area. The other thing that I see a lot of is I think you also mentioned that you guys are an EOS company, entrepreneur operating system.
Kurt Wilkin:Those, companies have typically a visionary entrepreneur who's very good at certain things and needs an integrator, someone who I call it an operating partner. Somebody to, really make the vision come to life. And so that that person is oftentimes the early need, either in a fractional basis or a full time basis for, for our clients. It really depends on what what the rest of your team looks like. That's my problem with the recruiting industry as a whole is recruiters are often out going to find out, whatever a client thinks they need.
Kurt Wilkin:They go and resource that, and what they really need is oftentimes not what they think they need. And so that's really the the nuance of this profession. I I think there's so much that needs to go into exactly what a client needs based on the needs of the organization and what the rest of the team currently looks like.
Mike Coffey:Well and I will say, I think both in house recruiting and, contract recruiters are mostly salespeople. They're trying to, you know, sell the applicant to take this job, close this rack, and move on to the next one. And a lot of times, they don't understand the business. They don't understand where it's at and what this person's role is really gonna look like. And that's why I think you see a lot, you know, regardless of whether it's a, you know, a recruiting firm or in house recruiters, you see a lot of disconnect.
Mike Coffey:And suddenly on day 1, you're in the army now, and you find out what your job is really gonna be versus what the recruiter told you.
Kurt Wilkin:Dude, don't get me started on the recruiting industry. I I think it's dastardly broken, especially the contingent model that many of your clients are probably wrestling with. I wrote an ebook called The Recruiting Industry is Broken, as a matter of fact.
Mike Coffey:Okay.
Kurt Wilkin:And I used to tell people in my team hated it. I would say, hey, I hate recruiters too. Obviously, there's are good ones out there and they
Mike Coffey:Sure.
Kurt Wilkin:They do some great work. But, man, by by and large, they are salespeople,
Mike Coffey:to your point. So how would you describe the difference in strategy between a startup, a scaling firm, and a more established company that's maybe, you know, doing growing 2 or 3% a year versus trying to hit 15, 20, 25 percent a year or more.
Kurt Wilkin:The difference in strategy as in a people strategy?
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Oh, no. Just business strategy. I mean, as I think, you know, how do leaders think differently about how does that foundational leader versus that more caretaking CEO who's just trying to to build it more steadily?
Kurt Wilkin:Yeah. Night and day. So the the caretaking CEO oftentimes a lifestyle business. There there's not a whole lot of disruption going on. There's not a whole lot of rapid change that needs to happen.
Kurt Wilkin:So I I don't really deal with many of those, to be honest with with my business. We're dealing with companies that typically grow 20 to 25% per year, and taking it as a one time deal, it's it's not a big deal. But mainly, you start stacking those 3, 4, 5 years along and before you know it, the the wheels are coming off.
Mike Coffey:It starts to compound. Yeah. And the complexity gets higher. Right?
Kurt Wilkin:Exactly. And what many entrepreneurs, and this is what I'd love to be part of our conversation today, is how do your HR listeners and viewers work with entrepreneurs? Entrepreneurs are very much, not always, but generally, wildcatters. They don't pay attention to some of these rules. Right?
Kurt Wilkin:They know they're important, but they're not really beholden to them. They wanna grow their business. And so as a byproduct, they they don't like to slow down. They oftentimes hire reactively as opposed to strategically. And so it oftentimes, they fail before they succeed.
Kurt Wilkin:And what I try to do, and I know what folks like you and maybe your EOS friends try to do is, let's slow down. Let's take a look at where you're going as as an organization. What are you trying to do? What goals are you try are you trying to accomplish? How are you gonna achieve those?
Kurt Wilkin:And let's build a talent road map. That's really what we do best. I know EOS has right people, right seats. I think it's honestly pretty rudimentary, but it's a good start. And it's just, done done well, strategic talent planning or workforce planning, whatever you might call it, is a great way to, think long term and strategically about your hiring.
Mike Coffey:And I think one of the other things that, you know, earlier stage companies, their their business strategy. I mean, their actual delivered product or who their ideal customers may change 3 times in a year as they, you know, they kiss a lot of frogs trying to figure stuff out. And and it's not just an HR problem. It's, you know, accounting, anybody with with that those lined functions, that, you know, and especially background larger corporate in arenas are really challenged to pivot and be that flexible and that that agile. You know, they see everything they see the sunk cost of all the effort we've put in this path, and the entrepreneur, you know, has shiny objects and high ADD.
Mike Coffey:Thank God for Adderall. But at the same time, often their instincts are right, their guts right, even if they can't quite articulate it. And so I think that's, one of the real challenges that people who've got that more corporate experience face unexpectedly when they they walk into a smaller firm?
Kurt Wilkin:Yeah. There's a couple of things that we see with the more corporate types, and there are exceptions to anything that I'm about to say. But usually, they have they're used to having a team work with them, which is part of it. And rolling up their sleeves and doing anything from strategy to, you know, dotting i's and crossing t's is not necessarily something they do in the big corporation. And the other is the just the nimbleness of being able to move quickly.
Kurt Wilkin:Now a good person from a larger organization can be a countermeasure to the to the founder who is a little bit ADD and, like, a 5 year old soccer team all over the place. And the right person can listen to the theory or idea and help them vet it and make sure that it is the the the direction they should go and wean out the the ideas that aren't good for now. Right?
Mike Coffey:What do you think most entrepreneurs get wrong or have the hard have to learn the hard way about people practices?
Kurt Wilkin:So most entrepreneurs have a they they manage by their gut, so they hire by their gut. And oftentimes, our gut is somebody that makes us feel comfortable. Oh, you you live in Fort Worth? I used to live in Fort Worth. You did you ever go to to, pop, what's the name of the restaurant?
Kurt Wilkin:The big Mexican restaurant? Tony,
Mike Coffey:the one I eat at Esperanza's or Joty Garcia's. Yeah.
Kurt Wilkin:Joty Garcia's is what I was thinking of. But but yeah, they find some commonality. They they went to school at the same place or whatever, and they they they're they're positive people. They're glass half full folks. And that often leads to mis hires because we don't really vet them properly.
Kurt Wilkin:For example, almost every time a candidate comes out of a conversation with with a founder, the founder will say, great conversation. I love that guy. Mainly because of the entrepreneurs talking the whole time about their vision and how great the opportunity is, and they're selling the candidate. There's not enough screening or vetting of the candidate. That's that's probably one of the biggest ones.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. It was I was at a a conference for entrepreneurs a couple years ago, and there was a speaker, and he emphasized in selecting people the would I have a beer with them test. And I was just cringing in my chair because I'm like, I can see having to be able have compatibility, but that's like number 4 or 5 on the list. I need to know their competencies. I need to know what their behavior styles are really gonna be in the office and and and, you know, what they're gonna bring.
Mike Coffey:And then I'm gonna decide, is this somebody that I can work alongside on the data? Because if I like them, that that's just gonna make it more awkward when I have to fire them down the road if you know? So and I'd rather have somebody who I can say, yeah. I could live without this friendship, if they can't do the job. But I think there's a lot of that.
Mike Coffey:And we I've I've been guilty of it. You know? And I was an HR guy. I mean, I was an HR, you know, that was my career. And but you get in you get your own blinders on and you think you've got this unique insight into the human soul that nobody else has.
Mike Coffey:And and you make some decisions and you think, oh, gosh. Gosh. Now I've gotta extract myself out of this. And and it wasn't this person's fault. It was mine, and I just made a bad hire.
Kurt Wilkin:Well, what they're also what you're also gonna find is we don't like having the challenging conversation. We don't like holding people accountable. We don't like giving too much direction, so it we it's hard to hold people accountable. We we need in our best world, we need people who are self charters that can figure it out on their own, and we don't have to babysit.
Mike Coffey:Right. And and it's what EOS brings to to the table for a lot of entrepreneurs that that formal process of of, you know, we're gonna meet every week whether it kills the entrepreneur or not to have a sit down meeting. And and we're gonna have a set agenda, and we're gonna work through. And you're gonna make commitments entrepreneur, and you're gonna be we're gonna hold you accountable as a team next week. And did you do what you said you're gonna do and those things?
Mike Coffey:And I think that's really hard. What do you think most HR pros don't get about working in an entrepreneurial firm?
Kurt Wilkin:So entrepreneurs aren't big about details. And so, the the fact that we need payroll to be right, and benefits to be accurate, and all the compliance and laws to be followed, we get that. We don't want it to we don't wanna be led with that. We don't want that to drive the conversation or drive the organization, to be honest. So but we also want a great culture.
Kurt Wilkin:We want it to be a great place to work. We wanna attract the top of the top, and we wanna retain and and reward the top of the top. And oftentimes, we don't understand what goes into that, and I think the HR profession as a whole, some of the things that, at least from an outsider, feels like are taught are the things that we we have to follow to keep our job and to keep us out of jail, which are very important. And, it doesn't feel like enough of the other. Like, how do we make this a great place to work, and how do I help you achieve your strategic goals, entrepreneur, as opposed to making sure you don't end up in jail?
Kurt Wilkin:All important.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. It's it is a a yes and kinda situation on both sides of that. One of my favorite podcast is the All In podcast, and 2 of the 4 guys on there, Chamath Pali Paliha Patel and David Sacks, a few weeks ago had a conversation. Basically and these two guys are well known tech entrepreneurs, investors. They've done much more, financially and successfully than than most people out there.
Mike Coffey:But a few weeks ago, they got into a little bit of a rant, and and Thomas said that in none of the companies that he has a controlling interest is there an HRR department. They've got a great, employment law firm that they work with, but they drive almost all the other HR responsibilities down to department heads. I cringed when he said that, because I've seen what what that can do. And, you know, you get the wrong knucklehead in that role, and, we rarely train people to even be good supervisors, much less great, you know, people and organizational leaders. But he described HR as the police.
Mike Coffey:David Sachs called them the commissars. And then he then he said everyone hates HR. So and we've I've been in HR for 30 years. I remember when, you know, the Wall Street Journal had an article. It's time to kill HR, and Time Magazine has HR all those things from the last 30 years.
Mike Coffey:And I'll put a link in that, in the show notes to that episode just for context, but that's not a unique take on HR, unfortunately. You talk in the book, about HR Rota and, describe who she is and and how she kinda reflects where some of that 8 anti HR sentiment comes from.
Kurt Wilkin:Yeah. So HR Rota is is, maybe not from HR her herself, but that's what the company needs at some point. So she learns and takes some classes and becomes certified or all this stuff. Right? And she is learns, whether she's taught it this way or learns, that the compliance with the law is very important, and that getting payroll right is very important.
Kurt Wilkin:All the stuff is is very important, and that's where the focus lies for Rota. And what Rota is lacking is the ability to have a true business conversation with an entrepreneur or, VP of ops, whatever you name it. Something more strategic or strategically, on the on the ops or sales side. Right? And what these entrepreneurs often hear is all the stuff that could go wrong, and how we need to protect the organization.
Kurt Wilkin:Again, which is very important. And what Rhoda is lacking is just that ability to have those those conversations. There's a a different version of Rodo, which I I call Rod in the book, which is kind of the fun guy. He has, you know, you you met him as a at a bartender at your country club, and and he's able to have great parties, and all that everybody loves him, and he meets everybody in the organization, and and Ride is cool, but Ride is not tactical and administrative or detail oriented. And so everything falls off the rails, and next thing you know, entrepreneurs, you know, getting papers from the from the sheriff.
Kurt Wilkin:Right? So we don't want that either. So that's why I love your fractional episode, and we do a little bit of this ourselves. Fractional chief people officer at the strategic level, These 2, 5, $10,000,000 companies can't afford a $250,000 chief people officer, but they could afford 6, 5, 10 hours a month a week and have a ROTA, making sure all the details and and i's are dotted, t's are crossed.
Mike Coffey:And increasingly, a lot of the ROTA stuff can be outsourced. Technology is just making it easier and easier to do that. And but somebody has to be there who knows when it's being done right or wrong, who can audit that and keep a steady hand on the wheel even if payroll is being done outside and your tax filings are being done and everything else is getting done, there's still gotta be somebody there who can can do that and can, you know, really balance that tactical and that strategic. Understand, you know, how the business makes money, where the business is going, how we're gonna get there through people. But then like you say and I've I know a CEO of a very large company who, you know, said he just needs HR to, you know, make sure payroll goes out, and that's all he needs people for.
Mike Coffey:That's all he needs. It's a really large company. I'm like, I you know, and they they were facing some challenges, and I was it was really clear your people strategy is a little bit off here. I mean, you could you know, and you if you had somebody with that expertise, But again, that's probably not expertise you're gonna develop in house. If you're if you've got a tactical HR organization, you gotta build it up.
Mike Coffey:So
Kurt Wilkin:So and Mike, this is one thing I talk a fair amount in the book is is I would tell your audience or anybody in the HR profession, it's not your fault that that's the way people see it. People get into, wanting to be a teacher, and and they get bogged down with all of the things that, you know, administrvia, in order to follow all the rules that are out there. Same thing with, you know, being maybe being a sheriff or being a public servant. You you get in there because you wanna be a a server of people or a saver of lives or whatever. And there's so many rules and regulations we have to follow in order to to comply.
Kurt Wilkin:And so that's, I think, the the link that for your team for your audience, I would encourage them to not only, have those tactical skills, but seek ways to be having those strategic conversations whether really truly understanding the business and truly understanding what a balance sheet and and p and l look like and how you can have an impact on that if, in fact, one of the guys in the book who is a HR background, he changed the the title from a CPO chief people officer to a chief performance officer. If I can work with my team and get the most out of them and and make them not not only great at the job, but wanna stick around and and grow with the organization. Now I've done my job.
Mike Coffey:And let's take a quick break. Good morning, HR is brought to you by Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been preapproved for 1 half hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information, visit good morning hr.com and click on research credits, then select episode 149 and enter the keyword Wilkin. That's w I l k I n.
Mike Coffey:And if you're looking for even more recertification credit or you just want to learn something, I'm hosting a webinar on June 5th entitled, the ethical and practical considerations on the Use of AI in Human Resources. We'll talk about the history of artificial intelligence, the ways we use it every day without realizing it, and how generative AI like ChatGPT can bring value and risk to the organization. We'll also consider ethical issues employers face as they implement AI. This free webinar is preapproved for an hour of recertification credit from both HRCI and SHRM, and you can register at imperativeinfo.com. Now back to my conversation with Kurt Wilkin.
Mike Coffey:So as we as the company grows, what are the what do you think the keys are to building a successful people culture? You know, once we get past, you know, my administrative assistant runs payroll every every week. How do we, you know, as we really wanna build a culture in a firm, what do you think is key to that in a growing firm?
Kurt Wilkin:Well, as you know, a culture, begets itself and it it's really starts at the top and it starts at the beginning. So it's really based on the the founder for for startups. I I don't know that there's any way around that. If if he or she has a strong person by their side that's working on the people aspect, then it can have an impact on the way they see the world. And it can they can note that there are certain things that are important to the organization besides just the top line.
Kurt Wilkin:Right? So, I I think that's the best thing I can say is identify somebody early on that could be your right hand on the people's side, whether it's payroll or just the people. We we call it the, mean, it could be the office manager. It could be the a lot of different roles, but somebody is the the keeper of the culture in the organization. Southwest Airlines, it was the assistant to Herb Kelleher.
Kurt Wilkin:I mean, it's it's interesting.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And I think a lot of organization I mean, you've got a culture whether it's intentional or not, and that's kind of the problem sometimes is that hard driving culture that is early stage entrepreneurs, people working around the clock and all of that. As you mature a little bit as an organization, it's hard to step away from that, and that's become a badge of honor. And and so you start to try to recruit additional talent in and people come in and are like, no, I'm not doing that. And I think that's, you attract sometimes in a startup, a certain kind of personality that really likes that adrenaline rush.
Mike Coffey:But then getting past that, and maturing and maybe tapping the brakes a little bit on that can be a
Kurt Wilkin:challenge. Yeah. It's funny. One of the characters in my book that did not make the book, she made the kind of the crib notes or whatever. Firefighter Fran.
Kurt Wilkin:She's great at putting out fires, but at some point in your in the, as your organization grows, you wanna prevent the fires.
Mike Coffey:Right. And she may become an arsonist just to stay busy probably too.
Kurt Wilkin:Right? Absolutely.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Well, you know, there's and in defense of Chamath and David, I have encountered a lot of HR people who just either and and I'll I'll be interested what you think. Do you know, who who like to say no? Who like that police role? Do you think those that's what the people, you know, did that is that originally what they wanted to do with that role, or do you think that something in a in an organization culture or something like that changes somebody to being just, you know, that kind of doctor no kind of personality in in HR?
Kurt Wilkin:And that's a great question. I was leaning towards maybe it's ingrained in the schooling or whatever they're they're learning in that function. But I look, I can see entrepreneurs are they're crazy ass sons of guns. Right? And so someone's gotta say no to them.
Kurt Wilkin:And if if the HR person happens to be the no police, then that that is what it is. I can't imagine that they would stick around for too long if they are continuing to be the no police for entrepreneurs. But I think it's I've noticed in my relationships, man, I want to be the fun guy, but if my partner is always a fun guy, I gotta be the, like, hey. Let's tone this down and not go to jail guy. Right?
Mike Coffey:So Exactly.
Kurt Wilkin:Maybe that's it.
Mike Coffey:And I think another thing that your frontline HR folks in a larger corporation may never develop is that, you know, you can say in a corporation, you can often say, well, this is what the law is, and this is what we're gonna do. Whereas I think entrepreneurial organizations I certainly okay. So that's what you're I I'm arguing with our attorneys all the time about different things. Okay. That's what you're saying the law is, but is there another way to get there?
Mike Coffey:I mean, can we be compliant and still get what I want out of this circumstance where, you know, if you're especially the larger law firms you work with, it's often one size fits all, and I think a lot of HR people are doing that. So I think build, you know, the ability for that HR professional to build a business case and understand what the entrepreneur is trying to get to or the owner is trying to get to, and find a way to help them get as close as they can to without crossing those lines. But building that that business case for whatever the initiative is, whether it's a DEI initiative or, you know, a new payroll system or whatever. Being able to to to make an an argument other than this is what everybody else is doing or this is the, you know, this is what it says in the textbook. And I
Kurt Wilkin:that's so important what you just said, Mike. Being able to understand how the business works and how you can make the business better and more successful, leveraging the tools that you want to put in place. For example, DEI you mentioned, most smart people know that a diverse culture, a diverse line of thinking is going to be better for your organization. So if there's a way to lead with that, how can we make the business better by having an inclusive environment, for example? But if we lead with, we have to have a DEI initiative because somebody said we needed to or because Walmart's forcing us to as a vendor or whatever.
Kurt Wilkin:Man, it's not gonna go very far. So lead with how it makes the business better, and the impact could be that you you get it because you want it. Right?
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And, you know, the and and we've talked about it on the podcast before, but the argument for DEI, and I just spoke at, North Dallas, Chamber of Commerce's HR conference. And one of the trends they asked, you know, we were highlighting trends and asked me what one of my more and I said, the movement away from the DEI movement to more to that inclusion. You know, why you know, what we really ought to be looking at is how can I broaden my recruiting pool to get as much talent in here? What am I what am I built into my systems unknowingly that may be discouraging candidates from certain backgrounds or populations or lifestyles, personalities, whatever.
Mike Coffey:And then how do I make them feel part of this group so that I retain them? I'm so my best performers are here. That's that's the that's the business case for DEI, and let's not go around counting noses or worrying about those kind of things. Let's figure out how do we get the best talent that's available to us that that we can afford in the organization. So, but, yeah, I I think making those arguments is is is something that a lot of line staff don't get, and it's really challenging whether it's HR or accounting or even some operations folks have a challenge doing that.
Mike Coffey:And I think the entrepreneur, the founders always wanna know the why, and that's a real big issue for us.
Kurt Wilkin:Yeah. I I think what you just said is great. The everybody in the organization, if you wanna make an impact, understand how the business works and what you can do to impact it. Because we all can, you all can. And understanding that will make your HR discussions with the founder or anybody on the on the exec team much better.
Mike Coffey:Well and that is a perfect place to wrap it up. That's all the time we have. Thanks for joining me, Curt.
Kurt Wilkin:Man, it was great to to visit with you and and share a little bit and talk a little bit about HR.
Mike Coffey:I enjoyed it. Next time I'm in Austin, I'll give you a holler.
Kurt Wilkin:Let's go. We'll, have a couple of tacos. We got some good Mexican down here too.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. El Arroyo. Okay. Sounds good. Thank you for joining me, and thank you all for listening.
Mike Coffey:You can comment on this episode or search our previous episodes at goodmorninghr.com or on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube, and for a limited time, TikTok. And don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcast. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer, and you can reach him at robmakespods.com. And thank you to Imperative's marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time. And I'm Mike Coffey.
Mike Coffey:As always, don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally. I'll see you next week. And until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.