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Welcome to The Foster Friendly Podcast. We’re bringing foster care closer to home by sharing stories from the front lines. We're talking with former foster youth, foster parents and others who are finding unique and powerful ways to dramatically improve the experiences and outcomes for kids in foster care.
The Foster Friendly podcast is brought to you by America’s Kids Belong, a nonprofit that helps kids in foster care find belonging in both family and community.
Brian Mavis (00:01.548)
Well, welcome to the Foster Friendly Podcast. I'm Brian Mavis, the founder of America's Kids Belong, and I have with me my incredible partner Courtney Williams, who's a foster care recruitment specialist, as well as a foster adoptive mom, biological mom, all around wonderful person. And I have been looking forward to this podcast today because we're going to interview one of our very
Courtney (00:02.882)
to Fuster Friendly podcast. Brian Navis, the founder of America's Kids Belong, and I have with me my partner Courtney Williams, who's a Fuster Care Recruitment Specialist, as well as a foster adoptive mom, biological mom, all around wonderful person. And I've been looking forward to this podcast today because we're interview one of our very own.
Brian Mavis (00:31.438)
Larry May and Larry and his wonderful wife, Tammy, I just love them. They're just wonderful people. The way they express and live their lives just is full of light and just incredible character, emotional maturity. And so I really hope they don't blow it on this interview because I think they're wonderful.
Courtney (00:32.17)
Larry May and Larry and Tantus. Want to watch me say?
love them. They're just wonderful people. doing the way they express and live their lives with their full life and just in terms of character, emotional security. And so I really hope you don't blow it on this interview because I think they're a little difficult. Guys, it's great to have you here. So let me give you
Brian Mavis (01:01.39)
Guys, it's great to have you here. So let me kind of introduce everybody who's listening to who you are. So Larry and his wife Tammy are parents to three kids, including Diana, whom they adopted in 2010 at the age of six. And they're also proud grandparents to four beautiful grandchildren.
Larry And Tammie May (01:02.583)
It'll be hard to load up.
Courtney (01:08.706)
I'm going introduce everybody who's listening to who you are. So Larry and his wife, Tammy, are parents of three kids, including Diana, whom they adopted in 2010 at the age of six. And they're also proud grandparents of four beautiful children for grandchildren. And Larry is a retired business owner and currently serves as a leader in the community and his
Brian Mavis (01:28.13)
And Larry is a retired business owner and currently serves as a leader in with Indiana Kids Belong and as a community engagement manager. Larry and Tammy are also have been are currently or have been former, I guess used to be CASA volunteer. So Larry and Tammy, I so good to see you guys. Really do love you and looking forward to today's.
Courtney (01:38.636)
Larry and Tammy are also, or currently, have been former, I guess, used to be CASA volunteers. So Larry and Tammy, I so good to see you guys.
I you and I support you today.
Brian Mavis (01:57.601)
interview.
Larry And Tammie May (01:58.829)
Thanks for having us. Thank you.
Courtney (02:02.262)
Yeah, one of the fun things for me is, we are a spread out AKB staff. all work remotely and we don't get to see each other too often. So even as we're preparing for this, was like, Larry, tell me a little bit about yourselves. I know you a little bit, but I don't know a lot. So it's fun for her to hear and read a little bit of them. And he shared with me that there's a fun story about how he came to AKB and how the two of you, Brian and Larry met. So Larry, share us that story.
Brian Mavis (02:11.448)
Mm
Brian Mavis (02:26.466)
No, with love at first sight.
Larry And Tammie May (02:28.14)
It was not love at first
So when I was preparing to leave my business, I was part owner in that business, still am, was thinking, it took several years to sort of prepare my heart to move on. And I just knew that I didn't want to leave the business and not have something to go to. So I was really doing some research, leaning in, looking at different things. have, because of our adoption story that I'm sure we'll talk more about today.
Felt like it would be something post business world that would be related to families or adoption or kids from hard places. And so Brian was speaking at a church in Nashville where my brother attended and my brother Phil called me up and said, Hey, you gotta, you gotta introduce yourself to this guy, Brian, because it sounds like this, organization called America's Kids Belong would be right up your alley in terms of things you're looking for post retirement.
So I shot Brian an email out and this was just like a month or two after I'd left my company. Hey, I'm a retired business owner and this is what I do and this is what I want to do. Is there anything happening in Indiana where I could help you guys or be part of your organization? And I think, so Brian did get back to me. was a short, nice email, but it was essentially nothing happening in Indiana right now. What I learned later, I think is Brian.
Courtney (03:33.748)
I'm a retired business owner and this is what I do. If there's happening in Indiana where I can help you guys out of your organization. I think for Brian, it did get back to me. It was sort of nice, know, but essentially nothing happening in Indiana right now. What I learned later, I think, is when I think you deserve words for beta, you thought I was just an old, bored, retired.
Larry And Tammie May (03:57.869)
and I think these are your words verbatim, you thought I was just an old bored retired guy. so you didn't have very much interest in working with me.
Courtney (04:03.746)
I mean, I wasn't far off. You're old at least.
Brian Mavis (04:08.446)
I I wasn't far off. You're old at least.
Larry And Tammie May (04:13.685)
Old and retired, got, yeah, two or three at least. So anyway, that was, there was about a two and a half year gap then between the time Brian blew me off right after I retired from my business and when we started Indiana Kids Belong. And fortunately there was a guy named Ross Chapman who was a mutual friend and introduced us. And so it went from there. But anyway, I like every time I get a chance to dig Brian about the old retired.
old board retired guy thing I do because it's been far from boring since we've.
Brian Mavis (04:51.832)
Two out of three, I got two out of three.
Courtney (04:52.066)
Two out of three, I got two out of three.
Brian Mavis (04:57.082)
no, it's, you know, back in that time I was getting, you know, people from across the country, hey, what about this? And so my experience had usually been as like, these are people who just, they're not willing to pay the price. don't actually, they're good talkers, but they don't actually show up. And so, yeah, my part of my strategy was,
Courtney (04:58.166)
know, back in that time, I was getting people from across the country, hey, what about this? And so my experience has like these are people who just, they're not willing to pay the price. They're good talkers, they don't actually show up. And part of my strategy was not just to play hard to get, but to be
Brian Mavis (05:24.11)
not just to play hard to get, but to be hard to get. again, I am absolutely sincere. When I say Larry is one of my favorite people, his character, his emotional maturity has been an incredible gift, not just to Indiana, but to the whole organization and to me. So glad that he finally wooed
Courtney (05:27.361)
Yeah.
Again, I am absolutely sincere when I say Larry is one of my favorite people.
Courtney (05:38.687)
His character, multi -maturedness has been an incredible gift, not just to Indiana, but to whole organization.
Brian Mavis (05:54.171)
he -heh, over.
Larry And Tammie May (05:55.639)
Well, think the other big advantage is I became the oldest guy in the organization instead of you, right?
Brian Mavis (06:00.558)
Yeah, the rest of the team. that trends younger than us. So Tammy, I want to start with a question for you. So you guys, you're in a stage of life where you have two of your own biological children. And they're already in college, I think, when you guys decide to adopt from El Salvador.
Courtney (06:00.778)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (06:30.572)
And so, I mean, that's not a common story that you hear, being at that stage of your life. So what was it like starting over, essentially being empty nesters? And how would you encourage other people in that stage of life to say, actually, this is something you might want to consider?
Courtney (06:30.723)
And so, I mean, that's not a common story that you hear, being at that stage of your life. So what was it like starting over, essentially being empty nesters? And how would you encourage other people in that stage of life to say, actually, this is something you might want to consider?
Larry And Tammie May (06:52.666)
I would say...
Larry And Tammie May (06:57.377)
You know, don't be afraid to be out of the norm. We definitely felt out of the norm deciding to do that. I got lots of weird looks when I told people that, you know, we were gonna do this and it was like, okay, you're just getting ready to send your kids off and, you know, you're gonna be able to do what you wanna do. And plus, you know, there's all these risks involved and...
Brian Mavis (07:01.624)
Hmm.
Brian Mavis (07:25.112)
Mm -hmm.
Larry And Tammie May (07:25.803)
you know, it's trying to scare, you know, just scary thing and you don't want to do that because that's, who knows what would happen. so I, but on the other hand, we got a lot of encouragement too. And, you know, I would say we just enjoyed being parents and, know, just.
didn't want to think that, you know, we weren't going to be parents anymore. was especially, you know, we were parents, of course, to older kids. know, just knowing that there are some kids that needed homes and, you know, I just, didn't feel like I was done with that. So I don't know if that answered the question.
Brian Mavis (07:58.538)
Right, yeah, to adult children. -huh. -huh.
Brian Mavis (08:15.832)
Yeah, there's, you said some stuff that just jogged my memory of a couple of things. Quotes actually, we have a former colleague, Krista Petty, who coined the phrase, not an empty nester, but an open nester. And I love that, that he was like, okay, it's empty, but it doesn't mean it's closed. It could still be open. And then,
Courtney (08:16.19)
Okay. You said some stuff that just jogged my memory of a couple of things. Both actually. have a former colleague, Chris Apedi, who coined the phrase, not an empty nest or an open nest. And I love that. he was like, it's empty, but doesn't mean it's closed. could still be open. And then...
Brian Mavis (08:43.16)
You guys, yeah, you definitely didn't follow the norm. I not only that, then Larry, with an opportunity for you to actually be retired and be on the golf course, choosing to say, I'm not done with making a difference as well. So, which remind me of a quote, as you were talking, Tammy, from the current Pope. I'm not Catholic, but man, I love his quote. He said,
Courtney (08:43.426)
You guys, yeah, you definitely didn't follow the norm. Not only that, but Larry, was an opportunity for you to actually be retired and be on the golf course. would mean to say, I'm not done with making a difference as well. it was reminding me a quote, you were talking, came to me from the current Pope. I'm not Catholic, but man, I love this quote. He said,
Brian Mavis (09:11.83)
ask Jesus what he wants, and then be brave. Because oftentimes Jesus will tell you, step out of the norm.
Courtney (09:12.094)
Ask Jesus what he wants and then be great. oftentimes Jesus will tell you, step out of the norm.
Larry And Tammie May (09:24.217)
Absolutely. mean, that's one of the words that I wrote down. Actually, I like to look at my notes, but yeah, I mean, I feel like, you know, I felt kind of like I was a little crazy, you know, I really did. Even like with some things that Larry said, he's like, are you sure you want to do that? You know? And so yeah, I felt like I needed to be brave. mean, probably, you know, one of the bravest
Courtney (09:44.744)
huh.
Brian Mavis (09:44.976)
-huh.
Larry And Tammie May (09:53.815)
things I've ever, that guys ever called me to do, I would say. Just to even, feel like I was, you feel like you're gonna be supported by family most of the time, but I didn't feel the support that I really needed even for my family.
Brian Mavis (09:57.72)
For sure.
Courtney (09:58.699)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Mavis (10:12.748)
Yeah, because you fail. Yeah, people do have that expectation of well, you're in this stage of life. Here's what comes next. And then when you break out of that, they said, I mean, who knows what they were saying about behind your back.
Courtney (10:13.056)
Yeah, because you felt, yeah, people do have that expectation of, you're in this stage of life, here's what comes next, and then when you break out of that, they, they, they're like, what the, who knows what they were saying about the of fact.
Larry And Tammie May (10:27.999)
Exactly. We're not going to be their friends anymore.
Brian Mavis (10:35.362)
Yeah, the willingness to say maybe we're not done yet parenting, maybe God's not done yet, wanting to work through us to help these kids from hard places, and then willing to be brave enough to step out of that normal routine. mean, that's a message that I think a lot of people at your stage of life need to seriously
Courtney (10:38.422)
Yeah, the willingness to say
Courtney (10:44.796)
And God's not done yet. We need to look to us to help these kids from our places.
Courtney (10:52.642)
brave enough to
Courtney (10:57.804)
think a lot of people that your stage of life means a serious
Yeah, and one thing I loved, I can even just tell by watching the two of you, is that it's obviously a partnership thing. You know, I always tell people, do not enter this realm if you're both not on board. Even when we were going to interview you guys, Travis, our coworker, said, hey, you to do both of them. It really is a story of the two of them together. So I'd love to just hear a little bit more about that. What is that partnership between the two of you, and how do you guys spur each other on, or how did you in this work when maybe other people weren't on your side?
Larry And Tammie May (11:35.771)
Well, I would say to begin with, Larry was kind of wanting to do it way before I was when the kids were, when our biological kids were, you know, middle school, later elementary school, and I was like, hmm, let me pray about that. No.
Brian Mavis (11:58.03)
Turns out God agrees with
Larry And Tammie May (12:00.493)
So he said, okay, I'll give you a little bit more time to pray about that. Later when you wanted to do it, I'm like, well, let me think about that. No, it's how many years before we kind of got on the same page? I said, no, but I'll pray about it. That was, that was a turning point for me. Yeah. Yeah. He said, why don't you try
Brian Mavis (12:14.446)
Okay
Larry And Tammie May (12:27.657)
volunteer at the local pregnancy resource center and see how that goes and go do this and that and see if that'll be good enough for you.
Brian Mavis (12:37.838)
Yes, I had the same speech to my wife.
Courtney (12:39.536)
Yes, I had the same speech to my wife.
Larry And Tammie May (12:44.289)
Yeah, so you know I did and I'm sure I learned and got more brave you know than I would have ever been at that point you know so I know God had a lot of work to do. I maybe something not unique but pretty strong in our marriage is that we don't like doing things that the other
It's not like, well, I'll do this if you'll do that. We really like to get together on the same page with things. And so if we're not together, we just figure we probably need some more thought and prayer about that to get together. And usually if we're both sincere about that, we'll come together on at least the important things.
Brian Mavis (13:24.078)
I mean, that's great marriage advice in general, but especially for something as substantial of like, hey, should we raise another child? And I love that you guys, or you gave, you honored each other's answers, you gave each other space, and you ended up discovering that maybe there's something that you can do in the meanwhile that can help.
Courtney (13:24.382)
That's great marriage advice in general, but especially for something as substantial as like, should we raise another child? And so I love that you guys really gave, honored each other's answers, gave each other space, and discovering that maybe there's something that you can do in the meanwhile that can help.
Larry And Tammie May (13:33.195)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (13:52.372)
And that sometimes that no turns out being just a not yet.
Courtney (13:52.616)
and that sometimes that no turns out being just a not yet.
Larry And Tammie May (13:59.585)
Mm -hmm. I would say, you know, once we brought Deanna home, then the real work started. I mean, I thought that it was really hard getting her here, but then I really knew that we needed to work together, you know, even more. So, you know, there were times
Courtney (14:11.257)
Yeah.
Larry And Tammie May (14:28.065)
You know, I felt stronger and could do more and he felt stronger and could do more. so, you know, there are a lot of just challenges for sure at the beginning, just to be able to, you know, kind of lift each other up, you know, when we come down.
Brian Mavis (14:48.782)
So, know, Juan, I like that this is turning out to be a marriage counseling podcast and
Courtney (14:51.559)
One, I like that this is turning out to be a marriage counseling.
Brian Mavis (14:59.244)
that tell, know, raising kids is hard. It's, you know, for most people, it's one of the hardest things they're gonna do in their life. How was, since you already had raised two kids into young adulthood and now you have a new six -year -old, how did that feel different than your other two?
Courtney (14:59.948)
But raising kids is hard for most people. one of hardest things they're going do in their
you already had raised two kids into young adulthood and now you have a new six year old. How does that feel different
Larry And Tammie May (15:20.535)
Well, I'll say that the decision was, I've said this many times, the decision to adopt after having two biological kids and no infertility issues, that was the hardest decision personally that I had ever made because it's not like, we want kids, we want kids, we want kids we need to adopt. We had kids and they were grown. And so we had through all that and we realized how hard that was. So the start over seemed
Brian Mavis (15:31.096)
Mm
Brian Mavis (15:42.402)
Mm -hmm.
Larry And Tammie May (15:48.525)
That seemed like a big, big decision. But yeah, then the second time around, we could call it kind of the second time around, Travis and Carly were three years apart and then Deanna was about 12 years younger. I think it was both more exhausting. Exhausting, Because of our age and stage, but also because she had experienced things and trauma that our other kids hadn't. We didn't understand. The whole idea of awareness was completely, we were oblivious to that.
Courtney (16:03.233)
Yes.
Brian Mavis (16:11.064)
Mm
Larry And Tammie May (16:16.673)
But so it was exhausting, but it was also in many ways easier because we had seen the full cycle of things that we used to worry about with our kids when they were younger. And we're like, that's not that big of a deal anymore. So I do think that some things are easier, some things are harder.
Brian Mavis (16:32.802)
Yeah, the, the exhaustion part's real. mean, parenting is built for young, younger people. And we, I once met a group of, grandparents who are now principally, in charge of raising their own grandchildren and this group of people, this is an official group. And, I, I asked about the group and how many there were and stuff, and then they described themselves
Courtney (16:33.056)
Yeah, the exhaustion part's real. I'm telling you, this is for younger people.
Courtney (16:47.628)
grandparents who are now principally.
Courtney (16:52.88)
and this group of people, this is official group.
Courtney (17:02.422)
is we were retired, now we're just tired. But on the other hand, Larry, like what you said is, you're experienced. And sometimes the thing that seems like a crisis is just a phase, or what you're like, is this a problem? No, that's just being a teenager. And so having that experience. I love the idea of.
Brian Mavis (17:02.91)
we were retired now we're just tired. so, but on the other hand, Larry, like what you said is you're experienced and sometimes a thing that seems like a crisis is just a phase or what you're like, is this, is this a problem? Like, no, that's just being a teenager. And so having that experience, I, I love the idea
empty nesters, experienced parents still considering opening up their home to a child who needs a family because there's, because of all that advantage of having the experience in your life. Now, so make it clear to those who are listening, you guys adopted internationally from El Salvador, but Larry, you wrote in a blog post
Courtney (17:48.364)
Now, so, to make it clear to those who are listening, you guys adopted International from El Salvador. But, you wrote in a blog post that my wife and I were enjoying our comfortable suburban life, happy marriage, rewarding career, three children, which so included Yonana, strong church community, and absolutely no idea.
Brian Mavis (18:02.222)
that my wife and I were enjoying our comfortable suburban life, happy marriage, rewarding career, three children, which so included Deanna, strong church community, and absolutely no idea how many children were living in out of home foster care as a result of abuse, abandonment, and neglect. And then you go on to say that once you see that there were more than 400 ,000 kids in foster care system, that you couldn't unsee
Courtney (18:17.698)
how many children were living in out of home foster care as a result of the huge abandonment in the West. And then you go on to say that once you see that there were more than 400 ,000 kids in foster care systems, that you couldn't unsee it. So you had the experience of adopting it internationally, then all of a sudden, you're made aware of the crisis right here in your own backyard. So what did that realization do?
Brian Mavis (18:31.15)
So you had the experience of adopting internationally, then all of a sudden you're being made aware of the crisis right here in your own backyard. So what did that realization do to both of you? And then how did you work that out in your life? What did you do with
Courtney (18:47.382)
both of you and then how did you work that out? What did you do with
Larry And Tammie May (18:58.093)
Well, I kind of wrecked us a little bit. mean, the whole suburban, I mean, we didn't know anybody that knew anybody in foster care. We didn't really know many broken families. We both came from very solid family upbringings and good parents, my mom, my dad, her mom, her dad. So
Brian Mavis (19:06.387)
Yeah
Larry And Tammie May (19:24.149)
And sort of Deanna came from El Salvador, but she was really in what would be called the foster care system there. So she was in a residential facility for the first six and a half years of her life before we adopted her. I think it awakened us to the idea that it's just not that easy for everyone. That sounds dumb. Of course it's not that easy for everyone, but you just don't think about it if you don't see it.
Brian Mavis (19:49.326)
Mm -hmm.
Larry And Tammie May (19:51.253)
to understand the kind of obstacles. Deanna is a very resilient young lady and the stuff that she had already seen and overcome at age six is amazing. And even on through her teen years, just watching her how she lives her life is amazing, but just completely different context for life than we had ever been exposed to. So I think that
And what it did to us, what it did to me was when I started thinking about leaving my business, there was no doubt that I wanted to be somewhere in that space, making a more direct impact on kids from hard places. once I adopted one and once I realized that there were 400 ,000 of them in the U S and a hundred thousand of them awaiting adoption, those numbers just kind of compelled me. And I think us to work together.
in that space. Yeah, I think the word wrecked is pretty good. Pretty good.
Courtney (20:51.318)
Hmm, yep.
Yeah.
Larry And Tammie May (20:58.937)
I think, you know, I kind of probably envisioned just, you know, adopting and kind of staying in my own little world with that, you know, and not, but then I think I kind of helped light the fire in him, you know, you know, make bigger, which he does a lot. I don't always do that. So, and yeah, I just, you know, being wrecked over seeing
Brian Mavis (21:13.986)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Larry And Tammie May (21:28.242)
wrecked people. It just doesn't always feel that good, you know?
Brian Mavis (21:35.73)
I love that word though, that you're using that word, Brecht. Yeah, so often God doesn't give us a vision, gives us a burden. And then we just have to figure out what to do with
Larry And Tammie May (21:52.107)
Exactly what happened. Yep.
Courtney (21:54.612)
Yeah, we can't all foster or adopt, right? I mean, I love how you guys, you walk the road of adoption, but then you decide there's something else you can do. And we all, there is something for everybody, something each person can do in this realm of foster care to really support the system, support the kids, support the families. But you guys decided to become CASA volunteers. And I know as a foster parent, kind of my lens of what a CASA volunteer is, but I've never been one. So what's it like and what is the whole CASA
Larry And Tammie May (22:21.047)
Well, CASA stands for Court Appointed Special Advocate. you know. I'm in English. Yeah, I had no idea. I think I had known one other person who had done that before, and she was a wonderful person, you know, just a teacher and just such a loving Christian woman.
Brian Mavis (22:28.886)
It doesn't stand for house?
Courtney (22:34.572)
Yeah.
Larry And Tammie May (22:52.77)
But you know, I'm like, wow, I don't know if I can do this. But anyway, you're kind of being invited to be in another voice in court for these foster kids or kid or kids, whatever family that you might be assigned to. You're usually assigned to one family and you get
you know, see all the information about, you know, what's been going on and why this child had to be taken away from their home. you know, right off the bat, you're thinking, you know, this needs to be done and that needs to be done. you know, but you learn quickly that you can't do all the things that you want to do, you know, these
Brian Mavis (23:47.128)
Hmm.
Larry And Tammie May (23:48.941)
But at least you can create a relationship with the child that is a healthy one. you kind of get involved sometimes, like even in the schools that they're in and just all parts of their lives you learn about that so that you can hopefully speak some wisdom and help into that situation and especially.
you know, in the courts because, you know, the caseworkers can't always be on top of all the cases. A lot of the caseworkers have just are way overloaded with casework. And so they can't know things that maybe we could see, you know, that we could like point out and help with. So I don't know if that, if I said everything. I think that's a good summary. We're just advocating
one or two children where they've maybe 15 or 20. Right. And just trying to be sure the best thing happens, the best possible thing happens for those children in foster care.
Courtney (24:57.174)
Yeah, be that another source of mentorship for them, right? A person that they can trust or people they can trust, which really is the key to these kids. need relationships, people that they can trust and see how healthy relationships work. And that's kind of how I see CASAs is that another side of that. And I've also heard Larry say that you guys like to say, Deanna opened your hearts to kids from hard places, becoming CASAs opened your eyes to the depth of the challenges and the needs of those kids that are in the system.
Brian Mavis (25:00.238)
Thank
Larry And Tammie May (25:14.443)
Nice.
Courtney (25:27.286)
What did you learn through your years as a CASA and the needs of those kids?
Larry And Tammie May (25:34.814)
I think that I did learn that there was a whole world out there that I didn't realize was out there. And then just, I think I learned compassion.
Larry And Tammie May (25:52.939)
you know, because of where some of these people, you know, some of their backgrounds and why they were there, you know, now because they didn't have, you know, the support and help that we, that I did, you know, whenever I was growing up. And I think I had to learn to be brave because I'm not, I'm not a confrontational
kind of person. and so, you know, I just, had to learn a new level of bravery and just being able to, you know, ask good questions and, and to, to listen when I thought I had the answers and I didn't. And, you know, it was good for me too, as well as for them, I think, you know. And I think, I think a little bit about the cycle of foster care too, just that I would often
Brian Mavis (26:30.088)
Mm -hmm.
Larry And Tammie May (26:51.777)
when I would receive a new case, very quickly get angry at the biological parents for maybe there was something that they did that caused the kids to be removed from their home or a drug addiction or a safety issue. And one of things I would always try to do is get with the parents as soon as I could and just get to know them, take them to lunch or take a walk or whatever. what I would inevitably, actually for every one of my cases, I could see where their childhood and their upbringing.
Brian Mavis (26:56.878)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Larry And Tammie May (27:20.599)
fed right into where they were as adults and as parents. So that just helped me have a better appreciation for how hard that is, how hard it is to break out of that and just the tough job they have. So again, back to the word compassion. think being a casa, if we do it well, we're going to be as compassionate for the parents as we are for the kids.
Brian Mavis (27:44.972)
The other word that just keeps coming up is brave as well. I can imagine a lot of people who are just listening to this being surprised to hear that you would take the bio parents out and that some of these people listening might be intimidated by that. Even if they're compassionate, they could say, well, I'm not used to taking a...
Courtney (27:44.994)
So important.
Courtney (28:05.824)
Even if they're compassionate, they could say, well, I'm not used to taking a felon out for lunch and things like that. what, besides understanding like, your background and stuff, was it as scary as it sounds like it might be?
Brian Mavis (28:14.166)
a felon out to lunch and things like that. what besides understanding like, their background and stuff, what was it as scary as it sounds like it might
Larry And Tammie May (28:28.114)
No, I don't know. I don't think so. They're people. They're people that have experienced trauma and are struggling.
Brian Mavis (28:35.928)
Yeah, I'll just affirm that saying with Julie and I, would do the same thing with our kiddos, their bio parents and who were, were in gangs and some were strippers or prostitutes. Gosh, you would get together with them and they seemed almost childlike. Like they were like, I've never been with an adult before.
Courtney (28:36.192)
Yeah. I'll just affirm that thing. You and I, would do the same thing with our kiddos, their grandparents, who were family gangs, family strippers, and prosecutors. Gosh, we would get together with them, and they seemed almost childlike. they were like, I've never been with an adult before.
Larry And Tammie May (29:02.541)
more.
Brian Mavis (29:03.554)
It was a weird dynamic. Instead of being intimidated, they were intimidated by you. And so you just had to show compassion and let them know you're rooting for them. And they're shocked by that because they've never had anybody do that for them before. Okay. I want to shift gears a little bit. And I'm hoping, I'm imagining that there's some listeners out there who are in this stage of life, who are nearing retirement or are retired.
Courtney (29:03.826)
It was a weird dynamic. Instead of being intimidated, they were intimidated by you. So you just had to show compassion and let the know you were rooting for them. And they were shocked by that. They never had anybody do that.
Okay, I want to shift gears a little bit and I'm hoping, I'm imagining that there's some listeners out there who are in this stage of life, who are nearing retirement or are retired and they can only golf so much and now they're like, now what? And they're like, okay.
Brian Mavis (29:33.518)
And they can only golf so much. now they're like, now what? they're like, okay, how do I make this, maybe this last significant season of my life count? How do I make it matter? And maybe they're not going to adopt or foster. So Larry, speak to the man or woman out there who's in that season right
Courtney (29:44.587)
How do I make this last significant season of my life count? How do I make it matter? And maybe they're not going to adopt or foster. Larry, speak to the man or woman out there who's in that season right now. They're close to retirement, they are retired, and that they're not done with making a
Brian Mavis (30:03.47)
They're close to retirement, they are retired, but they're not done with making a difference. Tell us about your journey and encourage them on maybe taking that different path.
Courtney (30:13.506)
Tell us about your journey and encourage them on maybe taking that different path.
Larry And Tammie May (30:19.629)
Yeah. Well, I've always struggled a little bit with the word retirement and the whole, the idea in the U S that age 65 is some magical number. Somebody decided back in the forties, I think was going to be the retirement age. And I think retirement for most people in Western or at least in the U S they, they think that means ceasing to work.
And as a young guy, when I was in my twenties and thirties, it used to really bother me. I, I hated it when I saw guys in their fifties and their sixties and their seventies stepping back, slowing down and saying, I want to hand this off to the young guys, you know, and I'm thinking, well, wait a minute, aren't you supposed to be the wise one? You've got all these lived experiences. You've got more money than I've got. You've got more time than I've got. And, so
As a young guy, didn't like the word retirement. As an old guy, I don't like the word retirement because I don't really want to cease until I'm, until I cease breathing, I guess. I think that what I would say to folks is to just let go of the word retirement and just think more in terms of what's next. I view retirement. So I left my business at age 57, started at AKB at age 60. was, that
roughly five years ago. And I don't know what my next season will look like, but I just don't see a lot of reason and certainly no satisfaction coming from the idea of ceasing to make an impact on people. Even when I was a business person, a lot of people think, you know, let's get out of the business world. Let's get into the nonprofit sector or sector, or let's get a ministry going, a church. I think that we're all called,
Courtney (31:58.306)
Thank
Larry And Tammie May (32:10.155)
where God puts us. Even if you're not a person of faith, I think you can view your life as a calling. so, you what I did in the business world is really not less important than what I'm doing today at America's Kids Belong. And nor would it be if I was caught, and some people would disagree with this, but if I was called to be a pastor of a church, I don't think that's a particularly higher calling than being a business guy. We're just called to make an impact. And I think
In the business world, there was some, I mean, you spend eight, 10, 12 hours a day with people. You're going to impact them one way or the other. have a greater opportunity to impact them there. I mean, other than my wife and my children, I won't impact anybody as deeply as I have with coworkers. So anyway, just avoid the whole, I read a book one time, I can't cite the author, but it was called the new retirement mentality. And it was really a good way to think of it for me that just don't think of it as.
Brian Mavis (32:56.918)
Right,
Courtney (32:57.032)
Right. Anyway, just a point, I read a book one
Larry And Tammie May (33:09.653)
Ironman, just think of it as the next season and what's the next adventure because that's a lot more fulfilling than the golf course, especially if you're not any better at golf than I am.
Courtney (33:12.226)
what makes you different because that's a lot of stuff that's different.
Brian Mavis (33:20.43)
Well, I'll tell you what, I mean, maybe for selfish reasons, anybody who's listening that happens to be in that season or know someone and you afford this podcast to them. If I had 50 Larry Mays, I could change the country. so there are such advantages. mean, the youth has its advantages with energy and passion.
experience and maturity and wisdom that Larry brought. Man, like I said, I wish I had 50 Larry Mays helping us
Courtney (33:49.538)
experience maturity with and
Larry And Tammie May (34:00.557)
Tammy's glad that there's only one of me. Trust me.
Courtney (34:01.346)
Couldn't handle that, huh? But Larry, you do continue to make a difference. And it's just awesome to see how you are impacting Indiana's foster care system through helping businesses and faith communities understand how they can be part of that solution and the change. Can you kind of share with us a little bit about what do you do for Indiana's kids belong and what does that look like in the businesses and faith communities that you serve and what do see them doing?
Brian Mavis (34:03.381)
HAHAHAHA
Larry And Tammie May (34:08.267)
Yeah.
Larry And Tammie May (34:31.275)
Yeah. Well, we're trying to inform and engage. mean, most businesses, I didn't know anything about kids in foster care, had very little knowledge of adoption before we adopted Deanna. Same in the faith community. It's not a matter of, I've really never spoken to anyone about what we do at Indiana Kids Belong and they say, that's not, I don't really think that's very important. I mean, anybody that knows what we do recognizes the value of it. So it's really just raising awareness and engaging people where they are.
One of my favorite stories, Courtney is a guy named Alex, a 17 year old kid that we videoed as part of our I Belong project. And his, in his video, he was kind of snarky, kind of cocky. And he's like, yeah, I want to own my own computer business. I can do anything with computers. And I want to, so he's 17 year old guy. He's in the foster care system waiting for adoption. And he's saying, I want to own my own computer business. And so a lady named Angie.
I heard that, saw that video and said, well, I can't, I can't adopt him, but I, I own my own IT business. She called us up. Can, can I give him an internship? She made way, made things, set things up so he could have an internship. I was telling that story to an engineering firm here where I live and they said, well, does he have everything he needs? And I'm like, well, as a matter of fact, he needs a laptop.
And so the engineering firm donated a laptop. Angie donated her time and her business to make an internship happen for this kid. And, you know, that is really, really cool. Neither Angie nor the engineering firm had any connection to adoption or foster care, but they both saw this kid, saw his snarky personality and confidence and said, Hey, I want to do something for this kid. So it's that kind of thing that gets me kind of charged up when we see people
Courtney (36:10.355)
Yeah.
Courtney (36:20.459)
Yeah.
Larry And Tammie May (36:28.395)
or maybe kind of distant from this space like I was, but then they say, well, you know, I could do that.
Courtney (36:35.003)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (36:35.31)
Okay, I want to land this plane right there. I love that story and I think it really encapsulates kind of one of the major themes in our time together is, know, Tammy, you saying, you know, don't follow the norm. And so for our listeners right now, no matter what stage of life you're in, whether you're young or nearing retirement or somewhere in between,
Courtney (36:52.77)
don't follow the norm. And so for our listeners right now, no matter what state you're in, whether you're young or hearing
Brian Mavis (37:04.942)
I would say, think about what could you do next? I mean, so often we hear people say, I can never do that. I can never adopt. I can never foster. And my retort to them would be, then what can you do? And you guys, like Tammy, I said, you started off with volunteering some things and then you guys got into CASA.
Courtney (37:09.452)
Think about what could you do next. so often hear people say, I can never do that. I can never adopt. I can never foster. And my report to them would be, then what can you do? And you guys, my family, I said you were started off with volunteering to do things and then you guys got into Kafka. And so the answer isn't nothing.
Brian Mavis (37:35.214)
The answer isn't nothing. The answer is, well, what's the next small step you can take? maybe that one small step is the only step you take, and that's the assignment you've been given. And maybe that one small step will lead to other steps. But I love that that woman said, I can't adopt, but I can help this Alex with.
Courtney (37:38.892)
The answer is, what's the next small step you can take? maybe that one small step is the only step you take, and that's the assignment you've been given. And maybe that one small step will lead to other steps. But I love that woman that I can adopt, but I can't help this Alex with something she cares about. And so.
Brian Mavis (38:04.192)
something he cares about. And so for our listeners out there, I hope you take inspiration from Larry and Tammy, who said, what can we do? What can we do next? And don't begrudge this, the step you take. Don't look down on yourself to say, well, it's not fostering, it's not adopting. mean, we had the same story. Our first step was my wife volunteering at a thrift store that helped foster families.
Courtney (38:07.116)
For our listeners out there, I hope you get the inspiration from Larry and Tammy who said what can we do about it. So don't begrudge the step you take. Don't look down on yourself and say, it's not fostering, it's not about.
Courtney (38:26.55)
Yeah.
Brian Mavis (38:33.536)
And so just be brave and take that
Larry And Tammie May (38:40.403)
One of the things Tammy does today, this didn't come up, but I want to mention it is so I was involved in starting Indiana Kids Belong, but she volunteers and she does the interviews for the kids on the videos. So she got that and I would be terrible with that. have sort of a mean face and a, I've heard kids don't flock to me. They open up to Tammy
crazy in the interview room and that's a hard thing for a kid to say.
Brian Mavis (39:08.13)
That is man, right? That is that's one of the tougher jobs we give people to do is in those interviews. So what a
Courtney (39:08.332)
That is man, right? That is one of the tougher jobs we give people to do in those interviews. So, yeah.
Larry And Tammie May (39:15.317)
I do all things Indiana Kids Belong. Tammy does one thing in Indiana Kids Belong, but it's an essential thing. She does it so much better than I could do. I do.
Brian Mavis (39:21.918)
man, that's for
Courtney (39:22.343)
No.
Brian Mavis (39:25.292)
Yeah, that's so good. Well, you guys, know, I'll say it one more time. Love you guys and thank you for your wisdom and for your example. And that I think a lot of people feel like maybe the thing that they're thinking about is too crazy. And then when somebody else does it, that gives them the bravery they need to say yes. So thank you so much.
Courtney (39:25.322)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, thank you guys.
Larry And Tammie May (39:53.047)
Thank you. Thanks again for having us. Thank you. It was good talking