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We need a new definition of success—one that harmonizes meaning and money.
Imagine diving into your workday with renewed energy, leaving behind the exhaustion or dread of a monotonous grind.
Traditional beliefs about success and the root cause of burnout are the same:
Prove yourself.
Work harder.
Take care of the business, and it will take care of you.
We’re recycling the mindset and practices that keep us stuck. Our souls need a jumpstart into The Age of Humanity.
Tune in for a new way of working that honors our nervous system and the bottom line, using knowledge of the brain, the Bible, and business. We’ll discuss timeless truths that amplify growth, ignite change, and reshape the world of work. No corporate speak or business BS. Let’s get to the heart of a rewarding career and profitable growth.
We speak human about business.
What’s in it for You?
Value, Relevance, and Impact (VRI): No, it's not a new tech gadget—it's your ticket to making your work genuinely matter to you and your company.
Human-Centric Insights: We prioritize people over profits without sacrificing the bottom line. Think less "cog in the machine" and more "humans helping humans."
I'm your host, Rebecca Fleetwood Hesson, your thrive guide leading you into the new Age of Humanity. I’ve navigated the highs and lows of business and life, from achieving over $40 million in sales, teaching thousands of people around the world about leadership, trust, execution, and productivity to facing burnout, divorce, raising a couple of great humans (one with ADHD), and navigating the uncertainty of starting a business.
I’m committed to igniting change in the world by jumpstarting business into profitable growth with the timeless truths of our humanity.
Sound crazy? It’s only crazy until it works.
Hit subscribe to never miss an episode, and leave a review to help other listeners discover our show.
Want insight and advice on your real career and business challenges? Connect with me on social media or email me at rebecca@wethrive.live. Your story could spark our next conversation.
[00:00:10] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Welcome back to the Business Is Human Podcast. I’m your host, Rebecca Fleetwood Hession, and we’re here to bring you episodes that blend meaningful work with profitable success. Here to steward what I call the Age of Humanity. I believe if we transform the way we work, we can transform the way that we live. As always, my friendly request, if you like what you hear, hit subscribe so you don’t miss any episode and leave a review to tell the other humans that they might like it too. Always looking to help you and connect with others. All right, let’s get into it, shall we? Hey, hey, hey, it’s Rebecca. I am glad to be back. We had a little hiatus for a few weeks while I was hosting our huge event, Stand Tall in Your Story. And so thank you for your grace and that little break.
[00:00:58] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Today I have a special episode that is a podcast that I was a guest on, which honestly I love so much. So if you know anybody that needs a podcast guest that I’d be a fit for, let me know. And so today is an episode I recorded with Marketing B-Sides with my client, my friend, CEO, and founder, Tom Hootman. So let’s just get into it, shall I?
[00:01:32] Tom Hootman: Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of Marketing B-Sides. I am your host, Tom Hootman. I’m also the Founder & CEO of Mixtape Digital. This is a podcast where we talk to interesting people because everyone’s a marketer and no one really has it figured out, but hopefully through various conversations, we can help shepherd all of us along to help to kind of figure it out a little bit more. Regardless, let’s learn something and let’s meet some interesting people. I’m excited about today’s guest because today’s guest has called me on my bullshit more times than I can possibly count. And everybody out there needs someone to call them on their bullshit. Call them on it. I’m just kidding. Kind of. This week’s guest is someone near and dear to my heart who’s helped me a ton. And I’ve had some amazing coaches over the years, like professional coaches.
[00:02:20] Tom Hootman: And Rebecca and I have been friends. We’re friends. She’s always there for me. We started, she was my coach. She’s still my coach to this day, but she’s also a friend. She’s remarkable. And I think in my humble opinion, that you always need someone when you’re having a string of those days, gears are all gummed up or you’re struggling to communicate with your boss, your team, the voices in your head, the things that keep you up at night. You don’t know how to solve a problem. You need a Rebecca Fleetwood Hession to come and just listen, but then also, number one, call you on things and say, “Hey, slow down,” and give you perspective. And she’s done that for me for years. And I can honestly say that I wouldn’t be nearly where I am today without her help. And what I wanted to do today was talk to her a bit about not only how she landed on coaching and how she got here, but also kind of the theme that I try to get into with every episode is a bit of what it’s really like and perspective on what great clients look like, what lousy clients look like and the behaviors that we don’t see when you’re talking to someone.
[00:03:28] Tom Hootman: And that’s not just for this guest, that’s for all guests. One of my favorite things about agency work is that so many times clients, if you’re an agency, you’re working with a client, they don’t have perspective on what other clients ask for, how other clients come prepared or don’t come prepared or how other clients interact with agencies. So they don’t see it. It’s not like sitting in a restaurant and you realize how everyone behaves in a restaurant or should behave, should behave.
[00:03:55] Tom Hootman: And it gives you a framework for, oh, here’s where I go to order, here’s where I go to pick up my food, I shouldn’t stand on my chair and scream at the server. There’s an element of behavioral cognition that you have from being in the room with others. And particularly in business, the client agency piece, working with a coach and particularly in business today, because so many of us are just like on mics and headsets working remote from a little room in our homes, you lose some of that. So I really wanted to dive in a bit with Rebecca and learn a bit about what great leadership looks like to her, what great leaders think they have figured out, but they don’t, what everyone disagrees with her on, but then eventually maybe she’s right because a lot of the time she’s right, just telling you a personal experience.
[00:04:42] Tom Hootman: And without further ado, Rebecca Fleetwood Hession, please don’t forget, listen to the podcast, watch the podcast on YouTube, like it, subscribe, comment, send flowers. Ladies and gentlemen, Rebecca Fleetwood Hession, I hope you enjoy. The question for the uninitiated, if you could boil … Look, what are the two to three songs on a playlist that sum up your career or your journey or your role that you would pick? Go for it. Number one.
[00:05:18] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: My first one is … Which one did I list first?
[00:05:21] Tom Hootman: Vienna by Billy Joel.
[00:05:22] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Vienna. Yeah. I was like, what order did I put him in? The lyrics to that song could literally be the soundtrack of my coaching business because it’s, hey, let’s just take a beat so we can access our prefrontal cortex because your nervous system is too dysregulated thinking you’ve got to just chase it. And if you don’t chase it and hurry, you’re going to lose it. Slow down. You’re doing fine.
[00:05:44] Tom Hootman: Slow down, you’re doing fine. I love that.
[00:05:48] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And that’s the song I go to when I want to just feel, but not in a radical specific kind of way. There are certain times you just need some and there are certain times you need … There’s certain extremes that you go to for to feel something, but that’s a song that I can go to at any point that just kind of puts me where I need to be.
[00:06:12] Tom Hootman: In a
[00:06:12] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Good spot. It’s like a glass of champagne if it’s not available to me.
[00:06:16] Tom Hootman: I can listen to that. The second you picked was Drake White. Drake White. Is that a country artist?
[00:06:21] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah. Country folky. Yeah, he’s cross genre kind of guy. This song, I love the lyrics because …
[00:06:30] Tom Hootman: It’s Power of a Woman.
[00:06:31] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: The Power of a Woman is a name of the song, but the lyric is what I love. He says she loves tequila and Jesus because they make her feel warm. And I love his vibe and that’s just kind of me. I love Jesus, but I cuss a little and drink tequila. And he’s got a soothing kind of tone to his voice that I like, but that song is so weird. It will show up at times that are significant in my life on my playlist, so much so that it gets my attention. So I was in Nashville, Tennessee for a friend’s bachelorette party, as you do. But my son also lives there, so I’m there a lot, but I was there for a bachelorette party. And so I was staying at this hotel off, not on Broadway, but off, not in the busy district part of life for Nashville.
[00:07:19] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And I’m on a run one day. And this person, this woman, had heard me speak at a keynote event the week before, followed me on Instagram, saw that I was going to be in Nashville at the same time she was going to be in Nashville and said to herself, “I really hope I run into Rebecca.”
[00:07:37] Tom Hootman: Come on.
[00:07:38] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And I run into this girl on a random street in Nashville, random, and she says
[00:07:44] Tom Hootman: With a bachelorette party in tow.
[00:07:46] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: No, by myself on a run that morning. Oh,
[00:07:49] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Okay. Yeah. We were out and about. It was morning. I was just out for a run. And I don’t know her because I just did a keynote that she was in the audience and she walks up to me crying. It slowed down. I was getting close to the hotel and she said, “Rebecca?” And I was like, “Yes.” And she said, “You don’t know me, but … “ And she starts pouring out this story about how much this keynote that I had done had meant to her and she was literally praying that she’d run into me. I kid you not. And immediately after we met, we took a picture, her fiance at the time, they’re married now. We just had this beautiful conversation about her life and what’s going on in her life. And of course, I’m kind of shook because it’s like, this is cool, but also weird.
[00:08:33] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And as soon as I put my headphones back in to finish my run, that song comes on. And that song does that through all kinds of weird parts of my life. That song will pop up randomly.
[00:08:46] Tom Hootman: Fascinating.
[00:08:47] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Fascinating. Also
[00:08:48] Tom Hootman: Fascinating, you said she prayed that she would meet you, which tells me that’s great, but how do they prioritize what prayers to answer then? I mean, aren’t there more urgent prayers out there that should be getting addressed? It’s like
[00:08:58] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: A random few. The things I pray for you would crack you up. No. It’s
[00:09:02] Tom Hootman: The same
[00:09:02] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Algorithm
[00:09:03] Tom Hootman: As the Spotify
[00:09:04] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: DJ. He’s not just 911 emergency. He’s there for whatever.
[00:09:09] Tom Hootman: You pick up the random, “Hey, you’re hungry and forgot about this candy bar in your pocket.” It’s good. We got that too. You got to keep him guessing. The third song.
[00:09:17] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Oh yeah.
[00:09:18] Tom Hootman: I think it’s someone near and dear to you.
[00:09:20] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It is. It is by my son, Cameron Hession, and it’s called Clouds. And I picked this one, not just to pimp him out because I love him and he’s my son and all that. So music, we love music, it’s the foundation of your life, I know, and mine. But when you raise a songwriter and a musician, there is a different level of appreciation for the journey that one must go through to go from not knowing how to play an instrument, write a song, to then having something that plays on Spotify and you watch people at a gig sing along to a song that your child wrote.
[00:10:00] Tom Hootman: Crazy. It’s
[00:10:01] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Crazy. And so he wrote this, this is one of the first songs that he wrote. And so when you were listening to a songwriter who’s writing usually at two and three in the morning, because he was working retail, all the things, you listen to the same riffs over and over and over and over and over and over again because they’re creating it. And there comes a point when you’re like, “If I have to hear that effing song one more time, I’ll lose my mind.” And then it becomes a thing and it goes into the recording studio and it’s beautiful and it has all the backtracks. So great. But that experience is so unique and beautiful. But the words to the song are also why I picked it because it’s one of those songs that anybody can listen to and derive a little different meaning out of it, but the catchy little riff is, “I’m not coming down.
[00:10:49] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I like it up here in the clouds.” And it’s about, I’m going to be a dreamer whether you like it or not. And it’s just the words reflect kind of who we are as a family too. I was never the parent that said, “You’ve got to do this,” like societal expectations. I was a, “Let’s figure out what your dreams are and then
[00:11:08] Tom Hootman: We’ll
[00:11:08] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Figure it out from there.”
[00:11:11] Tom Hootman: I could tell
[00:11:11] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: You were a cool mom. You’re a cool mom. I know you’re a cool mom. The vibe’s
[00:11:15] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Easy to pick
[00:11:16] Tom Hootman: Up with you.
[00:11:17] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I was so dysregulated as a mom. I was in corporate sales. I was losing my shit most days. In fact, I just did a TikTok. Cameron said to me, he has this memory of something about when he was trading Pokemon cards on the bus, and it’s not accurate. His memory’s not at all accurate. And I said, “That’s not true.” And he said, “What do you mean?” And I said, “I didn’t say that.” I said, “Here’s what you need to understand. I was completely dysregulated all the time when you were a child. I was barely listening. I was barely hanging on. And I was making surface level decisions that praise God worked out, but you put a little more depth into what was happening in your childhood than what was happening.
[00:11:53] Tom Hootman: Let me understand. When you say, what do you mean by dysregulated?
[00:11:56] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Well, our nervous system needs the flow of being activated, get excited, get even scared, like something that just activates you. It also needs connection. We need to be able to access our relationships, feel open and safe enough to have a conversation. And typically, business people are overly activated all the time and it shuts down connection because when you’re overly activated all the time and you don’t go to shut down, so there’s three levels, connection, activation, shutdown. When we don’t go to rest and restore and shut down on a regular basis, the activation just stays buzzing. And so it cuts off connection because it only has so much energy to run. And so your nervous system is trying to conserve energy to make sure you survive. And the place that it cuts off is listening and empathy and real connection because it thinks you’re running from a bear all the time.
[00:12:51] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And that’s the way my life was.
[00:12:53] Tom Hootman: Was. How long have you been coaching now? When did you start? When did you jump from the awful world of corporate sales and dysregulation into this serendipitous, I’m sure, very calm coaching.
[00:13:08] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And when it’s all just easy. Yeah. It’s just easy. 2016. It’s been 10 years. And I didn’t realize that until I was thinking about that, answering that question for you today. I was like, this is my 10 year anniversary and actually
[00:13:19] Tom Hootman: Happy
[00:13:19] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Anniversary.
[00:13:19] Tom Hootman: I filled out my business license. I remember it was in February, so literally exactly 10 years. 10
[00:13:27] Tom Hootman: Years ago. Congratulations. That’s wonderful.
[00:13:28] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Was that even possible?
[00:13:30] Tom Hootman: Well, there’s a lot has gone down in the last 10 years, right?
[00:13:34] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Right.
[00:13:35] Tom Hootman: I wanted to ask you, what are the common challenges that leaders or executives or managers come to you with? But really there’s a second part of that that’s almost, I think I want to know more is that how has it changed when you first started what people came to you with versus how … Because I think it’s a good window into how the world has changed. Has it changed? I’m guessing, and it’s very different today, the problems you’re helping people work through versus 2017.
[00:14:00] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I’m so glad you asked that. I do this event every year in March called Stand Tall in Your Story. And it’s a celebration of seven months of coaching that I’ve done with a small group of women here in the Indianapolis area. And so I have this view of it that is based on having this group every year for the last seven years and a little bit of a, here are the stories that came out of each cohort, each season is what I call them. And so I have this ability now to look back over the way that their stories played out because they tell their own story, TED-like style on stage each year. And the themes and the background of those stories have been reflected of what’s happening from a societal perspective. And I started paying attention to this a couple of years ago and it’s so fascinating.
[00:14:52] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So when I first started it was five days before the world shut down in 2020. My first event was in March of 2020. And it’s the first event and it was a pretty traditional experience from a coaching perspective, but what I’m able to do is provide this really safe place for people where they feel comfortable telling me stuff that they might not divulge to somebody else. And so I had these experiences where women got on stage and I mean, one of them came out as a lesbian couple that none of her colleagues knew when she’d worked there for eight years. That’s the story she told on stage. And others told kind of childhood trauma kind of stuff and how it shaped how they saw their business. And it was just this very like the need. It was like business had chewed up too much of their time and energy and they were ready to be themselves again.
[00:15:47] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: They were ready to just emerge more authentically before we used the word authentic so much as we do now. And that was like, wow. I mean, it even shocked me the stories that they told. It was so beautiful actually. It was like, oh my gosh, they got to be themselves on stage, not just who the business told them to be, blah, blah. So then 2020 hits. Well, that rocks everybody’s world. And so the next year’s talks were a lot more processing fear, processing what fear meant to them and processing loss of control because we all thought we had life figured out and then we realized it wasn’t nearly as guaranteed as we thought. Priorities shifted. And everybody was in this sea of uncertainty like, “What’s going to happen? I don’t know.” And so it was just this weird kind of the stories were pretty dark that year.
[00:16:40] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So much so I was like, “I don’t know if I should keep doing this.” It was dark. I was like, “I probably need an actual therapist.” It was wild. And then the next year you start to see a little more hope emerging. And then every year since, because people had that forced reflection time, like, “Is this really all I want for my life? Is this really it? What am I
[00:17:03] Tom Hootman: Chasing? Am I doing
[00:17:04] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: That? Yeah. Every year since there’s been more desire of that. I now know that I don’t have nearly as much control over my life as I thought I did. There’s so much going on around me, dumpster fire chaos that I need to pay more attention to me and my family and not get so caught up in my identity being so much of my job. And every year it’s more and more and more of that.
[00:17:26] Tom Hootman: Yeah. In my experience, I almost would resent it when people would try to … When I left my last job and started this company, there’s a tendency still for people to want to … And this is a bit older school of like, what’s the reason you’re leaving? Why are you leaving? And my mom had recently passed,
[00:17:46] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And
[00:17:47] Tom Hootman: I’d been thinking about doing something different for a very long time. And that wasn’t the reason at all. It was one of a lot of reasons, and I would get short. No, that’s not why I’m leaving, because it’s really easy to look at the calendar and be like, “Okay, you came back from leave a few months later, you’ve put in your notice. Obviously that’s had an impact on you.” And I think that’s like a pre-COVID-y kind of way of thinking about it.
[00:18:15] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Well,
[00:18:15] Tom Hootman: Why did they leave? It’s like more money or the hours weren’t good or they had to relocate or they didn’t like their boss. It’s all of that. I think people are much more complex today.
[00:18:26] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And that’s not handy for a leader. No. The complexity of humans is not convenient for a leader, especially one that’s trying to lead large numbers of people. And so the control part of things, like the big tagline for a while when we had mass exodus after 2020 where people were just like, “It’s not worth it. I quit.” The big mantra was, “Keep your people. How do we keep our people?” And so I started putting up visuals that look like business people working in jail. I would just put bars over. Yeah. I was like, “What do you mean keep your people?” Create the conditions where they want to stay. They’re not hostages. Yeah, control is a problem.
[00:19:09] Tom Hootman: I come from a couple lines of work that are very non-compete NDA focused,
[00:19:16] Tom Hootman: And it’s really interesting to think about some of the NDAs I was asked to sign that were very north. It was about keeping people and prohibiting them. And it’s interesting because I recently caught up with a founder from another agency who I’d just met and we were talking about … I always say this, I’d never realized how many people freelance in this business. I always kind of knew, but everyone does a little bit of side work and I’ll give you some of the credit on this, run towards that, embrace it. I built it in the handbook. You can freelance because you’re going to do it anyway. Let’s just admit that this occurs. And this founder was like, “They shouldn’t do that. That’s illegal.” And I was like, “That’s illegal. What are we 12? What do you mean that’s illegal?” You just declare bankruptcy. I declare bankruptcy.
[00:20:02] Tom Hootman: It was a
[00:20:02] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Weird … I had a consultant that used to say that the measure of a good company was nobody wanted a side hustle. And I fought him on that constantly. I was like, “Why can’t somebody get a paycheck one place and fulfill kind of creative space somewhere else?” Well, that just means that the company isn’t doing enough to engage their employees. I was like,
[00:20:24] Tom Hootman: No.
[00:20:24] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: That’s not true.”
[00:20:27] Tom Hootman: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, in marketing, so much of it is, there could be someone I worked with 15 years ago who has been in-house for a decade and they’re delighted with their in-house role, but they’re in-house for a SaaS startup and they really worry about not being up to not having their skills sharp for e-commerce. And they’re never going to work in e-commerce marketing or e-commerce paid media unless they do a little freelancing. And part of it is like, “Hey, I used to have a couple e-commerce clients. I haven’t done e-commerce in years. You got any e-commerce I could work on?” Because it’s fun. It’s different. It’s like a hobby.
[00:21:01] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: They’re
[00:21:02] Tom Hootman: Putting together a different puzzle.
[00:21:04] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yep, yep. And I always, when people come to me and want career coaching, I ask them, “Are we running from something or to something?” Either one’s fine, but let’s be clear on what’s the gig here.
[00:21:16] Tom Hootman: What are the majority of people who come to you? Are they running from something or to something?
[00:21:20] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: In the way I see it or then the way they see it?
[00:21:22] Tom Hootman: I want the way you see it because I’ve been in this chair on the other side of you for many years and I
[00:21:27] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Know
[00:21:28] Tom Hootman: That there’s ways I see it and then you challenge me and I’m like, “Yeah, you’re right. Shut up. Stop it.”
[00:21:32] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: They want to be running to something, but it usually takes some level of pain in their current reality to get them to consider it. Sound familiar?
[00:21:43] Tom Hootman: Yeah, a little.
[00:21:45] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Because our creatures of habit is a nervous system function. Our nervous system believes that same equals safe. And so most high performers have both a loyalty, but more than loyalty, it’s a, “I can fix this. I can figure it out. I can make this work.” And so they’ll stay in situations until it is grossly uncomfortable and then start thinking, “Well, maybe there’s something better.” So they’ll frame it as, “No, I’m running to something. I’m really excited about this.” But I’m thinking to myself, “You wouldn’t have unless that other place got painful.” Now, my experience with FranklinCovey was sort of like that, but the company didn’t do anything to create the pain for me. So I’d been at FranklinCovey for 20 years, holy crap. And I just didn’t have enough creative freedom. And I was starting to feel just like grind, bored, this isn’t enough for me.
[00:22:45] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: But it wasn’t because the company did something wrong, but the discomfort in me said, “The company is moving in a way that you’re going to have less creative freedom. Are you going to go do the thing that you know that you need to do or are you going to stay where you’re comfortable?” And ultimately I jumped.
[00:23:02] Tom Hootman: God, you’re so fucking true. I think we all kind of fool ourselves into … And I try to think of an analogy or a correlation and all of them are really dark. And it’s like work isn’t necessarily as dark. And I mean, I don’t want to belittle some of what’s in my head of the associations, but there’s situations where things are bad and you know you should make a change or it’s time for … You need to challenge yourself, but then you have one good day or two good days or one good interaction and you’re like, “See, this is how it could be.” And what you’re not realizing that you’re focusing on the exception, not the rule. And
[00:23:39] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It’s hard to take … I never believe that it is going to get better because you’re used to making things better. You’re a high performer. We’re like, “Surely I can make this better.”
[00:23:46] Tom Hootman: I can fix it because we all want to be the hero.
[00:23:49] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah. I have this going on right now with a client, she messaged me today and she said, last session, two weeks ago, she was out. It’s time. Let’s go. Been there 25 years. She was excited. She was ready. She’d already called HR. She was negotiating and today it was, they want me to stay. I’m conflicted, but I feel okay about it. And I could just hear the tone. And I said, “Okay.” I said, “Will you do me a favor this weekend? Will you just write at the top of your journal, what is true?” That’s it. Just what is true? And just follow that thought around for a while because I don’t care if she stays or she goes as long as she’s staying true to herself and her gifts and talents and her dreams and desires. It doesn’t matter
[00:24:33] Tom Hootman: To me. Yeah. I mean, I believe this in my heart. You can be ready to leave and ready to start something new. Very few jobs are quite literally like, “I’m going to throw my laptop against the wall and storm out of here while flipping everybody off.” Those jobs exist, but what
[00:24:49] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Happened … I walked out of a Wendy’s like that once, but we can talk about that another time.
[00:24:53] Tom Hootman: I’ve done the same thing. I don’t know if it was a Wendy’s though. I think it was a full of pep rental store that I was like, “I’m out of here. Fuck this.” But it’s not that black or white. And I went through this when I left. It’s sad to leave because there are so many good people. It’s not a bad place. They do really great work and I really love everyone here. It’s just time for me. It’s like finding your reason for leaving. And I think people can get nostalgic
[00:25:19] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Really
[00:25:19] Tom Hootman: Early. Once they say they’re going to leave, everyone wants to keep you and everyone’s sad you’re leaving. And there’s this, you want to like Leonardo DiCaprio in Wolf of Wall Street. I’m not fucking leaving. You look people in the eye and you’re like, “Maybe if I just stayed, it’d be great.” But no, four minutes after you stay, you’re going to be like, “Oh
[00:25:37] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Shit.”
[00:25:38] Tom Hootman: Because now it’s going to be bad.
[00:25:41] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Like an idiot if you want. Now
[00:25:42] Tom Hootman: You’re going to feel like an idiot and now they’ll be mad at you. Now if you do it and you leave, now they’re going to be like, “What’s up with this person, man? We worked hard to keep them and they left again.” Oh, it’s tough.
[00:25:52] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah, it’s so true. And that is your nervous system trying to protect you because it really does believe that same equals safe. And so anytime you want to invoke change in your life, any uncertainty, your nervous system is going to go, “Hold up. Are you sure we want to do that? That’s going to take a lot more energy than we usually …” And so that’s why people stay in abusive relationships because staying in a known pain feels easier than the uncertainty of what’s going to happen when I leave.
[00:26:20] Tom Hootman: It’s a safe pain because you know what it is.
[00:26:23] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yep. Yep. 100%.
[00:26:25] Tom Hootman: So you work with a lot of leaders. So you work executives, managers, leaders, organizations.
[00:26:30] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Mostly executives and founders, VP, founder level, VP, CEOs, founders.
[00:26:35] Tom Hootman: Perfect. Everyone wants to know the shit because everything is like AI slop and Instagram slop now, right? And there’s a lot of bullshit out there about like, here’s what all great leaders do. And it’s like, God, how did this get in my algorithm? Because I just watched it. That’s why it’s in my algorithm.
[00:26:51] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: There’ll be another one when you go back later.
[00:26:53] Tom Hootman: Yeah. This Zuckerberg doesn’t know that I almost vomited when I saw it and I scoffed. He just knows that I watched it. What are the habits or routines that separate, in your opinion, the high performing executives from the rest?
[00:27:06] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It seems like there should be just a simple answer and there’s not. The great leaders care for themselves well. And I know that sounds trite and I know that sounds silly, but here’s why that matters. It is a nervous system science thing. So when you care for yourself, you take breaks, you don’t schedule yourself back to back. You have greater access to your decision making. Your prefrontal cortex is available to make better decisions. Your creativity is available to you. When you’re the leader that thinks that grinding and back to back to back and getting caught up all the time is the way you win, you get dumber and you get less creative. Full stop, just period. And so those that take care of themselves are better. They just are. And they’re more self-aware, which then allows them to have more empathy and understanding of just the human condition.
[00:28:01] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Because if you’ve taken the time to understand yourself at a deep level, and I don’t just mean surface level, like I have a gym membership and I don’t eat carbs. When you say taking care of yourself, that’s what a lot of people
[00:28:13] Tom Hootman: Think. Yeah. I was going to ask you to follow up on that. Seriously, because that’s immediately where people’s heads go. Okay, great. They drink eight glasses of water a day. No,
[00:28:20] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It’s not. Yeah. But I’m talking about, do you understand why you believe what you believe? Do you understand why you do what you do? Do you understand who you serve and why it matters? I’m talking about beliefs, which is even more than values. Values, I don’t know, I’m over the whole values conversation because nobody really understands what it means. And to me, values shift and change too rapidly based on situations that they’re not reliable, but beliefs get to childhood shit. Beliefs run deep and they are a key in this kind of triad. There’s beliefs, there’s your nervous system state, and then there’s the habits and patterns that fall from those things. And when you have things that you don’t like about your life, if you just go to change the habit without understanding the belief that was driving it or the nervous system state that was driving it, you probably won’t stick with the change and it’s just surfacey level stuff.
[00:29:16] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: But those that are willing to dig deep, they’re different in all the right ways.
[00:29:21] Tom Hootman: How often do you think people who don’t take care of themselves get in those behavioral patterns out of guilt? Great example. I know it’s not a running joke, but after 4:00 PM, you’re going to get a different version of me than you’re going to get at 10:30 and at 2:30. So I try not to take high intensity meetings or anything that takes a lot of serious concentration after four. And there are days where I’m like, “That feels like I’m taking an easy way out. Shouldn’t I be grinding? This isn’t very grindcore of me.” Do you have a lot of leaders who do that shit to themselves because they think that’s what they have to do? Is that
[00:30:01] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It? Yeah. That’s the societal pattern that we were taught. It’s been passed on generation, generation to generation. And everybody’s different from a belief perspective, but the patterns from a society perspective is external validation is what we’ve been raised on. It started with grades in school. We were externally validated. Very few times did somebody in our age group, my age group, where somebody sat down with a young person and said, “So tell me a little bit about what you’re good at and what you love to do.” It was get good grades, have good attendance, prove yourself, work hard, and then you’ll get the opportunities that you need. And so prove yourself became the thing. And if you’re driven by external validation, now you’ve got fear, now you’ve got, I can never stop working because then I’m going to get behind. It’s also the root cause of burnout.
[00:30:56] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It’s proving it.
[00:30:58] Tom Hootman: Are you reading ahead? Burnout.
[00:30:59] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Oh,
[00:31:00] Tom Hootman: Yeah. So it’s the next question. So yeah, I want to hear great advice on how leaders can avoid it. But also I fought you on this. I still fight you on this because there are times you’re looking out for me. And I remember I posted something on LinkedIn where I said, a conversation Amy and I had, and she said, “I’ve never seen you work so much,” but I’ve also, she was kind of like, “I’ve never seen you in such a good mood either. It’s crazy.” And I was really, really fired up and amped up. And you were like, “Hey, watch out for burnout, my man.” And I was like, “What are you talking about?” Times I still fight you on it, but there are times I’m like, “You got a minute because I am tired in a way that makes me scared.” I’m tired, but not sleepy.
[00:31:39] Tom Hootman: It’s like, does everyone fight you about this when you’re coaching them about burnout? Or are people like, “Yes, I’m burnt out.”
[00:31:46] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: They always fight me in the beginning or they’re just barely hanging on and they’ll do anything I say because they’re desperate. Those are the two approaches. But okay, let’s talk about two kinds of tired. There’s the kind of tired that you just feel like, “I can’t do this again tomorrow.” And it’s a different kind of tired because it’s not physical, it’s a different kind of drain off of your system that usually is you’re doing work that’s not aligned with your unique gifts and talents. You’re so wrapped up in your identity with your job that you’re afraid to even stop thinking about it if you’re not logged on. So there’s this vigilance that your nervous system is constantly scanning to make sure you’re okay. And so from an energy and nervous system perspective, your cells are vibrating like you’re being chased by a tiger even when you’re not logged on because you’re like, “I hope something doesn’t fall apart while I’m not there.” And then there’s the kind of tired where you’re in it and you’re excited and the work is lining up with your gifts and talents and you are just on fire.
[00:32:56] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: You can’t wait to get up and do it again. That’s great. And the cautionary tale while I messaged you after that post was, I don’t want you to get your identity so wrapped up in the excitement of it that you … It’s like a high you’re chasing. It’s a dopamine high that you’re chasing. And either of those paths take you where you don’t want to go. And so you got to have a healthy look at the way your cells work so you’re not just wearing yourself out.
[00:33:24] Tom Hootman: It also, you get addicted to a pace. It’s not that it’s not sustainable. It’s like the business doesn’t move at that pace forever. There are slow days and there are slow weeks and the pipeline’s less full sometimes and it’s more full. And you could have six pitches on the calendar that you’re preparing for and you get addicted to that. And what happens in my experience is like when there’s only three pitches on the calendar, you’re looking around like, “Are we circling the drain? What is happening?” It’s over. And it’s not over, it’s a breather. It’s like this is normal and you get addicted to that high of being super swamped even if you’re excited about it. And then what can happen is when it goes back down, you can make bad decisions about the business or about your team or about how hard you’re pushing people because your lizard brain is going off about like, “Hey, it’s really slow.
[00:34:17] Tom Hootman: We got to do something.” And it’s like, no, it’s not. No, it’s not. It’s halftime. It’s the end of the first quarter.
[00:34:21] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And I was raised on FranklinCovey. I was there 20 years, but it’s seed time and harvest. So go out and plant some seeds, let’s water them and trust that the harvest is going to come. But if you keep ripping up the plants and checking to see if they’re growing and freaking out and driving everybody crazy, that’s not going to work.
[00:34:37] Tom Hootman: I got great advice from this one of my first sales trainers out in the field, shout out Tom Carnahan, wherever he is. And it was like a ride joke about outside sales. That’s true. It is true because this is how companies work. You go out and you have a record setting year, you win every award at the banquet, you go on the president’s club trips, you kick insane amounts of ass. You’re up 180%. They create your sales plan the next year. Your sales plan for next year is great. It’s 200% because you showed us you could do 180. And I remember he pulled me aside once and he said, “Hey kid, it’s an every other year business. Just keep that in mind.” And it’s hilarious because I know what he was saying is a joke, but there’s truth in that. And it’s like, what’d you say, seed, time and harvest.
[00:35:27] Tom Hootman: You have to be able to look back and be like, “Hey, that person was up 250% last year. That is other worldly. We can’t set their base sales plan at that again.”
[00:35:36] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I advise leaders about that often. Burning out your top performers is one of the big leadership misses because a leader gets freaked out and desperate and where are you going to go if you are freaked out and desperate? Somebody who just no matter what is willing to work harder to make it happen. And so then what you’ve done is reinforce the pattern of prove yourself to the top performer. And so their burnout is just around the corner when you do that to them over and over and over again. Listen, I lived that life. I was in corporate sales for 20 years, but I learned the hard way because I got to that point where my goals were so high that I thought I dreaded the beginning of a new year. I dreaded it because you knew. And so I learned to step back and say, “Okay, I can’t just keep working harder.
[00:36:20] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I gave everything I had last year. So what am I going to do differently this year that’s going to give me greater results that doesn’t require me to work more hours?” And that set me apart because I made some significant changes that later became things that the company implemented for everybody else because I just was to the point, I was raising kids and trying to survive and hit million dollar goals. And I just was like, “Okay, I can’t work harder. I got to work differently. What does that look like?” And then I would shift some things. Listen, I can remember being a few drinks in at the award thing and handed my trophy to some stranger in the elevator because I just had it. He was like, “Congratulations.” I was like, “You want this?” He was like, “What do you mean?” I said, “I can’t keep doing this.
[00:37:03] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I’m having therapy moment in the elevator with this guy and he goes, “What do you mean?” And I said, “I’m exhausted. What am I going to do with this? Now I got to get it on a plane. It’s really a bigger pain in my ass than it is an award. Would you just take it off my
[00:37:17] Tom Hootman: Head?” I respect that. I respect that because you chase the trophy, right? You want the awards.
[00:37:22] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah.
[00:37:23] Tom Hootman: A little
[00:37:23] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Pat on the
[00:37:24] Tom Hootman: Back.
[00:37:24] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: It’s not that you want the awards, you don’t want to be the one that didn’t get the award.
[00:37:28] Tom Hootman: Yeah. And I think some people, I was really competitive. So I thought of it as like I got my ring, right?
[00:37:35] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: External validation.
[00:37:36] Tom Hootman: Yeah, straight up. I want to talk a bit about you help people solve problems. People come to you and they argue and you argue with people until they see the light, that’s how I’ll put it. But we talk about burnout, we talk about being tired, we talk about a lot of the fundamental makeup for how we behave. But what do many leaders think they’re really great at that they’re not?
[00:37:59] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Communication.
[00:38:00] Tom Hootman: Just with their overall with their teams.
[00:38:02] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Overall.
[00:38:03] Tom Hootman: Yeah.
[00:38:04] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: In general, as a skillset. Okay. So if someone is a good speaker, they’re articulate, they are a good storyteller, they can just talk to people. That is only one aspect of communication. So they should probably go be a keynote speaker. They should do something where they can use that skill that it is one way communication. So I say those leaders just put up a billboard and they want people to drive by it and go, “Yes, they’re right. They’re so smart. Did you hear that talk that they gave?” They’re right. That’s not the way humans work. And so a good communicator is thinking about sharing the context, not just the information. They’re thinking about how can I ask questions to make sure that I understand how they’re receiving it and they’re clarifying and they’re saying, “Well, how do you feel about that? What do you think about that?
[00:39:01] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: “ And it doesn’t always mean that they are … The reason most leaders don’t do that is they’re afraid if they ask a question or engage in a conversation about the topic, that that means they’re willing to change their mind. And that’s not what I’m talking about. A person can’t just hear something and automatically just be like, “Yes, that’s right.” They need dialogue and they need to see it from their perspective. And what do you mean by that? How did you come to that? And if you’re willing to engage in a conversation, you’re going to get a deeper level of commitment. And so even if you’re not willing to change the directive, the strategy, whatever it is, just by allowing someone to ask questions and have a dialogue, you’re going to get greater buy-in. Now, sometimes you want a leader that is willing to have their mind changed, but through the dialogue, they realize they’d missed something.
[00:39:54] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: “Oh, I thought that was the right idea, but now that I’ve heard you talking about it, we should probably go back and reconsider this as a team or as a company.” Those are great communicators. So I had a boss at FranklinCovey one time and I was a top performer, always willing to do whatever it took to win, to get that glass award. And we were changing the way that we were doing some things that really were going to … It was going to change the way that salespeople operated. And it was a solution that we were eventually going to sell to the market. So we had to use it on ourselves first before we could take it to market. It was for 4 Disciplines of Execution, which is a seller, all the things. I had my own systems and processes that I had developed. Remember I said I was the one that every year was like, “Okay, I got to figure out a new way to do this.
[00:40:40] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: “ I was constantly developing my own stuff to run my little team. I wasn’t known for being a joiner of what the company wanted to do. I was known
[00:40:50] Tom Hootman: Shocking.
[00:40:51] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: … being the renegade that was going to figure it out. And there was lots of like, “Well, you can’t scale what Rebecca does. She’s just kind of a unicorny kind of thing.” And so when this came up, my boss called me and he said, “Hey, I need to talk to you.” Which already was like, “Excuse me, my goal was never to have to talk to my boss. Get good enough results that your boss never talks to you. Perfect.” And I said, “What’s up?” And he said, “Hey, we’re going to run this play and I need you to do it.” And he just paused. He’d never given me a directive before, ever, because he just cashed my checks. And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “No, I need you to do it. Follow it to the T because people are watching you and you’re influencing the team and I need you to do it.
[00:41:36] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: “ And because he cared enough about me and the way that we had the conversation was kind and it was thoughtful and he knew me and he knew what I was really going to think about it, I said, “Okay, I’m in.” And he said, “Really?” And I said, “Listen, you’ve never come to me like this before. I love you. I trust you. I’ll do it.” And he said, “Okay.” And so I did and I went all in because I’d made him that promise and I will always keep my promise. And then I figured out that the system actually worked, which was kind of disappointing because I really wanted to be able to go and say, “Look, I tried.” And so I didn’t admit it for a while, but then I realized that I could get better results with less time. And ultimately I became one of the people that designed the client implementation process for the solution because I got so bought in.
[00:42:26] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: But had he just sent me a message with everybody else, I wouldn’t have done it. And if he would’ve handled it not kindly, I would’ve rebelled against it. But because he was kind and because we had a conversation, he and I one-on-one, that’s a great communicator who looks at the team and says, “Who needs what?” Not just blanket message out, put up the billboard and they’ll know what to do. It’s, “I’m going to have one-on-one with Rebecca because she needs a different kind of communication.” That’s good communicator.
[00:42:53] Tom Hootman: I want to applaud one more thing that this person did that I’m sure you picked up on because you cited it first. When you jumped into this conversation with him, he told you the headline and then he did the hardest thing in the world for anyone who works in sales to do, which is shut up and he let it breathe for probably what felt like nine minutes to him because you’re fiery, you’re tempestuous, you’re ready to go. And I’m sure that those 10 seconds were really the longest 10 seconds of his week, but it allowed you to not just think on it for a hot second, but also you probably subconsciously pick up on the fact that this is a different conversation.
[00:43:35] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yep, 100%. I remember where I was sitting in my home office when we had the conversation. It was a significant turning point learning for both of us. Yeah, he’s a good dude.
[00:43:44] Tom Hootman: I’ll also say this aligns with something you said earlier. I’m catching myself thinking through what I do every day. When you talk about communication and asking questions, I think every leader realizes they don’t ask enough questions. They don’t check for understanding. They don’t know how to ask questions or they say, does anyone have any questions? Which is like the worst … I was taught when in speaking and presenting to like you raise your hand and say, “What questions do you have?” As a way to like … Everyone’s answer is always, “Do anyone have any questions?” Nope. But the secondary piece of that is we talk about burnout. You talked about people scheduling back to back to back to back. I was 30 minutes late to a one-on-one that I was holding today because I was in a fantastic interview with a wonderful candidate and I gave them a heads up that I was going to be late, but then people are always going to say …
[00:44:33] Tom Hootman: I used to say to my bosses, “No, it’s cool. No one’s going to be like, “Yeah, I’m really offended. You were late to their boss.” People just aren’t wired that way because people aren’t jerks, but you have to understand the power dynamic as a leader
[00:44:45] Tom Hootman: Of how you show up. And if you don’t give yourself and the team member that conversation enough time to be able to stop and ask questions and you’re running from conversation to conversation to conversation, you’re just spewing information all day long and then you’re frustrated two weeks later. Why isn’t anyone getting this? I said this very clearly. Well, maybe you said it pretty quickly in a 19 minute, 30 minute meeting because you were 11 minutes late. That is a mirror I think a lot of leaders should look in.
[00:45:13] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: If you cancel the one-on-ones, that’s the place where you should have been having the clarifying conversations. “Hey, I know we put this strategy and this announcement out. Now that you’ve had a little bit of time to think about it, how’s this going? What do you think?” And especially your top performers, because what leaders often do is they’ll cancel the one-on-one with the top performer because they’re good, they don’t need. And those are the people that you want real … Those are the people I was for this person on the team that I was going to tell this person, I was going to tell my leader the truth. Nobody’s doing this. Nobody believes it. So it’s a shock. If you cancel that one-on-one, you’ve missed the best feedback loop there is, which is your top performer.
[00:45:53] Tom Hootman: So fucking guilty of that. Damn it.
[00:45:55] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Said with love. It’s true. Said with love.
[00:45:58] Tom Hootman: It’s true, right? “Hey, we’re good. You’re kicking ass. We don’t need to talk.”
[00:46:02] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yep. Yep. And then that person doesn’t want to talk either because they’re a top performer. They’ve got other things to do that make them more money than talking to you. And so if you don’t honor it, they’re not going to ask for it. And now you’ve just cut off the main line to the success for your business.
[00:46:21] Tom Hootman: Do you think one-on-ones should be team member-driven or leader-driven, two-way street?
[00:46:27] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Yeah, it’s contextual. Just like that example with my boss saying, “Hey, we’re doing this.” That was a leader-led conversation, but there are times where you don’t have that. And so then making sure that they feel safe to bring anything to you so that there needs to be both two-way communication always.
[00:46:45] Tom Hootman: I like a short one-on-one agenda that the team member fills out. It should be five minutes. It’s stolen from Blind Zebra, a lot of it. Our friend Brian, Stephanie Neil. “How are you doing in work and life on a scale of one to seven, but you can’t say five? What’s gone well? What roadblocks you’re running into? Where can I help?” I think it helps me because I can take up if a 30-minute one-on-one … I can riff for 29 minutes if you need me to. But I try to get to theirs first. What’s going on? How are you?
[00:47:16] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Because
[00:47:16] Tom Hootman: I want to hear what they’re doing and I have to regiment that or else I’ll just be like, “Pounce all this stuff I’m excited about and here’s what’s going on over here and what about this? How’s this client doing?” And if you don’t stop and get out of that, you have to use their dime first, so to speak.
[00:47:29] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: And some people are slow to feel safe to share. So sometimes if you come in with a topic that you know is going to get the conversation started, then they’re more safe and free to bring their agenda. Everybody’s different down to their fingerprints on purpose for a purpose. So if we try to treat everybody like with the same, you’re going to miss with somebody.
[00:47:52] Tom Hootman: Yeah. So I’m always fascinated by this. What do you recommend? What’s a book, a podcast, what’s your go-to that you love to recommend to people that you just … It’s like you go to it every single … It’s just got something great for everybody that you recommend.
[00:48:07] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: One that comes up a lot is The Big Leap, Gay Hendricks, I think. And it’s not that it’s so … It’s a great book. It’s not that it’s profound, but it’s about limiting beliefs and what holds us back. And I find that that’s a topic that comes up a fair amount for the people that I’m working with because I’m working with people that want to do more and they wouldn’t be working with a coach if they didn’t want more, didn’t want to grow, didn’t want to be better. And what usually gets in the way of us being better is our beliefs about ourselves.
[00:48:40] Tom Hootman: Thank you. And I will say this as someone who can be a bit of a cynic, I don’t know if you’ve heard this. I can
[00:48:46] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Be a bit of a …
[00:48:46] Tom Hootman: Now that you get your paychecks in a different place, but that’s
[00:48:50] Tom Hootman: Less of a cynic every day, right? Putting yourself out there and just getting uncomfortable and being naked to the world, what am I going to say today? I’m like, it’s liberating, but there is … I never in a million years thought I would be someone who had a coach.
[00:49:05] Tom Hootman: And I remember you were fantastic about breaking down so many barriers initially. And I remember that moment that it clicks where you’re kind of like you, the brash salesperson when your manager sits you down, those first times you let something breathe with me. And I was like, “All right, I’ll try it.” And then I came back two weeks later and I was like, “You’re right. You were right. That was really good advice.” Almost like I was like a disdain. And so I appreciate that about you because you have patience. But I also, I’ve worked with you for a very long time and what I always tell people about you is that I always need a coach who says, That’s bullshit. Stop. Honestly, I mean, I believe in good coaches and I believe in good therapists and I believe you should have that outlet to work through what you’re going through, what you’re thinking and where you’re at in life.
[00:49:55] Tom Hootman: And same thing with therapy. You need a therapist who doesn’t just listen. There’s a good listening therapist, but sometimes you need a therapist or a coach who says, “Are you done?”
[00:50:04] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: I have two clients who quit going to their therapist because
[00:50:10] Tom Hootman: I was feeling loudly.
[00:50:10] Tom Hootman: There is a Venn diagram there from experience. Rebecca, it’s been wonderful. Thank you so much for catching up. Where can people find you or learn more about your work?
[00:50:19] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: So I also have a podcast called Business Is Human, so wherever you listen to your podcast. My website is rebeccafleetwoodhession.com and go there and look at the event that I’m hosting on March 12th called Stand Tall in Your Story. If you’re in the Indianapolis area that timeframe, highly recommend.
[00:50:25] Tom Hootman: I’ll share all these links. Of course, we’ll share them across when we post all the wonderful magic clips from this and the podcast
[00:50:31] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Outfit. Let’s do this all the time. This is fun. I
[00:50:33] Tom Hootman: Love it. Let’s just do it every week. I’ll see you next Friday.
[00:50:35] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Okay. Sounds good.
[00:50:36] Tom Hootman: Wonderful. Thanks, Rebecca.
[00:50:39] Rebecca Fleetwood Hession: Thanks for being here. You can follow us on Instagram, Business Is Human, or TikTok, Rebecca Fleetwood Hession. It’s a great way to share some of the clips with your colleagues and friends. All right. Make it a great day. Love you, mean it.