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The Disability And…Podcast gets right to the heart of some of the most pressing issues in arts, culture and beyond with a series of bold, provocative and insightful interviews with disabled artists, key industry figures and the odd legend. The Disability and…Podcast is currently monthly.
INTRO
Welcome to the Disability And Podcast. Bringing together thoughtful discussion and debate.
This month, Mind the Gap’s Assistant Producer Paul Wilshaw chats with writer Lucy Bell and Producer Naomi Turner of Documental Theatre. They look at the importance of the role of a Creative Producer, their latest project, ‘Mary and the Matrons’ and the opportunities for the learning disabled in the Southwest.
PAUL WILSHAW
Hello and welcome to the Disability And Podcast. Today, it is my utmost privilege to introduce you to Documental Theatre and to Lucy Bell and Naomi Turner. Thank you so much for coming onto this podcast.
LUCY BELL
Thanks for inviting us.
NAOMI TURNER
Yeah, thanks for having us Paul,
PAUL WILSHAW
I know Naomi and Lucy through a show that they are doing called ‘Mary and the Matrons’, and I've had the privilege of going down and supporting the project. So we'll be talking about that today. But first of all, who are Documental Theatre and what made you want to start this theatre company?
LUCY BELL
Documental has been going since 2014 and at the time, I was a teacher, and I started it with another writer who was a mental health nurse, and we were both, kind of really interested in plays that were inspired by people's testimonies, their verbatim, their lived experience. And because we were both in kind of public sector jobs, we just felt like a lot of the dramas that you saw, they didn't really reflect the nuance of what people's family lives were actually like and kind of like their sort of heroism really, in how people navigated a whole load of different dilemmas. Things were either really sentimental or they would be, you know, maybe end incredibly depressingly. And both myself and Callie Hayes, who I started Documental with, you know, we saw something different. That people actually navigate problems and get support, and they manage to arrive at different situations. So we wanted to create really kind of engaging new writing plays that showed that more accurately.
PAUL WILSHAW
And Lucy, what's your role in Documental theatre?
LUCY BELL
I'm Artistic Director, and I direct the company with Naomi Turner, who's here. So it's kind of partly doing all the serious stuff of, you know, kind of fundraising, having good governance, you know, managing the different projects, but also myself and Naomi come up with ideas for projects that we want to do, and often they're really responsive to stuff that we see happening in in the communities around us, you know, in current events. You know, we try to sort of respond to things that people are feeling. They feel that they're lacking, they need more of. First and foremost, I'm a writer. Before I started the company, I was a writer. I don't write all of the stuff we produce, but I do write a fair bit of it.
PAUL WILSHAW
And Naomi, what is your role in the company?
NAOMI TURNER
Yeah, so I am a Producer. So I'm Senior Producer at Documental, and also kind of co-run the company with Lucy as a Co-Director. My role kind of entails, well, all sorts, really, it's one of those jobs, isn't it, where you kind of, one day you’re doing a risk assessment, the next day you're kind of crisis managing, or looking at budgets or drafting contracts, or, you know, people managing, all sorts. But often it just means that I will kind of be there at the very start of a project idea and see it right through till the end. And it really is just anything that entails making the project happen. But obviously also recruiting the relevant team members to help us to do that as well.
LUCY BELL
No day is the same.
PAUL WILSHAW
But I'm also really glad Naomi that you've said what a Producer is, because I think they are the unsung heroes of the project that people do. And a lot of people don't know what a Producer actually does.
LUCY BELL
And it's also a lot more of a creative job than people realize, because, you know, like Naomi has been there right from the start of ‘Mary and the Matrons’, and you've sort of been a bit of a quiet voice shaping the creative direction of it.
NAOMI TURNER
Yeah. I mean, I've always kind of described my, well my kind of practice anyway, as Creative Producing. And I think, yeah, maybe sometimes people kind of, don't realize how much a Producer might feed into the kind of creation of ideas and projects and how they're shaped, and that's the part of it I absolutely love, and is absolutely why I do this, this job, and I guess a lot of Producers will also have often, well like a lot of creatives now, will have a portfolio career, so they won't just be Producers, they'll be creatives themselves. And so that kind of will feed in, so yeah, shout out to all the Producers out there that kind of feel a bit misunderstood or represented.
PAUL WILSHAW
And we've been talking a lot about ‘Mary and the Matrons’. And I really want to get onto this project, because I just love it. I rave about it so much. So, yeah, so can you tell us a bit about the show. What's it about?
NAOMI TURNER
‘Mary and the Matrons’ is a new musical that we have been developing for the past year and a half now, I would say maybe even close to two years. So it kind of, was sparked by an archival find. So Lucy was doing research for, I think it was a novel, and Lucy stumbled upon the kind of archival reports and national archive of Dr Mary Sheridan. And she was a child development pioneer and a doctor, and she was basically instrumental in developing testing for children and children with learning disabilities to kind of understand where children need to be in their development, in terms of speech, in terms of sight and their kind of their learning.
These reports basically detailed the work that she did. She did an inspection tour of ‘mental deficiency hospitals’, as they were called back then. So this is where many children with learning disabilities lived and were sent to live, effectively incarcerated in these in these hospitals. And she did an inspection tour to kind of understand the conditions, to see how the matrons were running these places where there could be improvements, where her work kind of impacts on these, different hospitals, and her reports just kind of sprung off the page. I remember Lucy kind of finding them and sharing them with me, and we were just so excited by how vivid they were and how they kind of really painted this, these incredible pictures and insights into what some of these institutions were like. Mary Sheridan was a writer herself as well. I think it was her great, great, great grandfather?
LUCY BELL
It’s going back aways. Great, great, great, however many great’s, grandfather was Richard Brinsley Sheridan, who's quite a famous 18th century playwright. He wrote ‘The Rivals’ and ‘School for Scandal’, like a restoration playwright. So she was very proud of that, and she felt like his writer lead genes were running through her
NAOMI TURNER
Yeah, and that definitely comes through in the reports, because they weren't written, you know, when you think of reports, you think that, like these dry documents that just only contain kind of facts, but really, they kind of sprung out, like scenes from a play, almost, like, you know, not much needed to be done to kind of actually respond to it creatively.
LUCY BELL
The thing that was quite poignant was because of, you know, identity protection. The names of the actual children she met were blacked out because some of them will still be alive. You know, they were kind of between the ages of three, and, I don't know, eighteen, back in the 50s and 60s, but some of them will be in their 70s now and out in the world. I had access to the reports, but I had to put in a Freedom of Information request to see them.
But what was really lovely was that Mary was describing them quite vividly, you know, and the way that she described, you know, each child was kind of in direct contrast to the very institutional settings they were in where, kind of, in a way, their individuality didn't really exist, you know.
I mean, there's some really heartbreaking bits in the reports, like, you know, one place, when the children arrive, they're not allowed to bring suitcases of their own clothes or teddy bears. You know, they're leaving behind their families, their loved ones, and they can't even bring a single object from their former life.
I mean, I'm a mother to she's going to be a teenager soon, and she's got learning disabilities, and she's non-verbal, and I've seen a lot of how the wrong context or lack of stimulation can kind of compound the person's cognitive disabilities. Paul, I'm sure you relate to that. You know that you end up being, you know, a child can end up being assessed as not progressing, but they're not being given the opportunities to progress. So I just, you know, learning how, you know, basically, some of these children put in these really traumatic situations, and then people were surprised that they didn't talk or they didn't form attachments, you know.
But what's really lovely about Mary Sheridan was that she was a real visionary, and that she could see this dynamic happening, and she could see how wrong it was, and she actually suggested that these hospitals be closed. I mean, I don't, we don't want to suggest that she kind of solved everything for people with disabilities, you know, like she was some kind of saviour, you know, she was of her time, and she had some quite, you know, old fashioned ideas herself, but, she was part of things changing, and yet she's been largely forgotten.
But the musical isn't, isn't a biopic about her. It's a story of a mum and a daughter. So Lou is, she's kind of a wannabe rock star, but she's been a she's been a single mum and a carer for a number of years. You know, she's on quite low income, and so she's not really had the opportunity to explore her own creativity. And then there's Millie, her daughter, who is just leaving special school. She's nineteen, and she's kind of moving into “adult social care provision”, but she's got, she's really passionate about space and the universe and the moon landings, and she's, you know, she has got ambitions, but the pathways open to her mostly kind of working in a charity shop or helping in a cafe. And there's a kind of tension between the two women, because they, you know they dearly love each other, but you know, Lou is slightly thinking it's my time now, and Millie's thinking it's also my time now, and they have to navigate that. And where Mary Sheridan comes in is Lou discovers these inspection reports, and it gives her a whole dose of perspective on how things have come to be the way they are now for Millie. And she almost sees, starts to see Mary Sheridan as some kind of, you know, spiritual guide, kind of telling her to sort of step up to the challenge of getting Millie properly sorted for her life ahead, but obviously it wouldn't be a musical if there weren't some setbacks and some tensions and things going a bit pear shaped, but that's roughly what happens in the story.
PAUL WILSHAW
And I mean, I love, like I said, I've loved this musical, and for me, like some of the musicals, the songs are on YouTube, and I'm not gonna lie, I listen to them a lot. And there's one called ‘Just Treat Me Like A Child’, which is sung beautifully, but it also just shows how poignant that whole situation is. And I think that there's a lot of times where we think, Oh yes, it's history, but we don't recognize that because it's history, it still is happening to children and young people. It's just might not be in a ‘mental deficiency hospital’, as in what they said in those days, but it still is happening in care homes and stuff. And I think it's, yeah, it definitely is one musical that is so poignant on that sense.
NAOMI TURNER
I'm really glad that you enjoyed that song, because it was a bit of a crowd pleaser and a bit of a crowd favourite. When we did the musical Ted Lishman, who performed that song, it was kind of, the idea was that it started off as quite an emotional moment, the first opening verse, but then it kind of spreads into this infectious, kind of like rock and roll moment. And Ted really, kind of like takes, takes the stage, and really kind of owns the song. And I think it was such a moment of joy in the musical.
LUCY BELL
He literally went into the auditorium, didn't he was high fiving his fans.
PAUL WILSHAW
It's just, Ted and the actress that plays Lou,
LUCY BELL
That's Victoria Walters
PAUL WILSHA
Yeah, Victoria, just the whole cast. It just so, bring you into this musical. And it doesn't feel like it's a musical about disability at all. It feels, it feels very at this time, as well as thinking about history. And on that front, also that you actually have two members of the cast with learning disabilities in this production. So I want to know, what have you learned from working with the actors? What's been your take away that you wouldn't have expected?
NAOMI TURNER
I think the thing that I absolutely loved about the process of working with an integrated cast and with Victoria and with Ted is the absolute joy and humour and depth that they brought to the roles. And I think that, when we were working with both Victoria and Ted, their absolute kind of dedication and passion to performance and to this project was, was so infectious. It's quite funny like that every morning, Victoria would kind of start with this kind of, “today I'm going to absolutely smash it. I'm determined. I'm focused. Let's go”, you know, literally, she would say that to everyone every morning.
LUCY BELL
And it did kind of lift the whole team, didn't it? Because they'd be staggering in, having travelled up from Exeter, maybe having had a broken night or whatever, and she'd be like, she'd look at me right in the eye and like, she'd like, knife the air with her hand and say, “Lucy, determined, focused”. Then I was like “okay, okay, Victoria”
NAOMI TURNER
Yeah, so like, that kind of energy, and I think, you know, Victoria said, said to us, like, this was just such a moment for her, because, and you can tell, she's got absolute kind of star quality, and so for her to get that moment to, like, really shine. And she did, was, yeah, it was, it was, it was so inspiring and just joyous. And I think with Ted, the thing that I really appreciated working with Ted was the emotional depth that he brought to his role. He was absolutely perfect for this project and its R&D phase, and in developing the characters and contributing to kind of where the musical went. And I think we had some really, really honest chats about what some of the situations the characters were in, you know, made Ted feel, and how he kind of really connected to the material. And I think that was a really, I don't know about you, Lucy, but I felt like we discovered a lot about the characters through those kind of chats
LUCY BELL
Yeah, because, you know, as you've just alluded to, Paul, you know, a lot of adults with lived experience of learning disability, they'll have had mixed experiences at school and how their family and their friends have responded to them. You know, so obviously this, the situations that we were portraying in the long stay hospitals could be a bit extreme, but there was a resonance with what people had experienced themselves, either at a special school or in mainstream, you know. And Ted really got us all to reflect deeply on that, which was really great.
And the other thing I would say that was really interesting to me as a kind of creative, working on the project, is that obviously you're kind of trying to work, create the project in an accessible way, and you're trying to address the different things that are going to work well or will need a bit more support. And when we held the auditions, we had so many talented people come and, you know, people were so creative with their improvisation, you know. So I think, firstly, that was a bit of a wakeup call. And I think actually we've, we felt quite sad afterwards, thinking that there is so much talent out there. Why is there so little representation? It just makes no sense, you know, like, you know, I mean, Victoria and Ted were amazing, but we could have cast the show over a few times over, couldn’t we? You know, there was, like, it was, you know, often casting decisions are quite quick, but we literally agonized over it for about two days, because there's just that, you know, there were so many brilliant offers.
And then when, once we got into the rehearsal, the thing that was kind of interesting to me is, is how you create a process working with different levels of working memory. You know, someone can be really flying when they only have one thing to do, and they can improvise it to a degree. But then as soon as it involves lines they have to learn, and then they're singing, and they have to remember physical cues, and, you know, harmonize, you know, the more you're adding layers and layers and layers of things that people are holding into their head, if someone has, you know, any kind of cognitive disability that just gets a bit more complex, you know, and, but it was kind of really liberating working out how the musical text needed to change according to that, how the songs needed to change, how some bits would be scripted, and other bits could just be devised live, you know. And that was just so much fun as a team to work on that. And I think we ended up with something that was really surprising and fresh as a result. And some of the audiences said that, you know, so I would like, I think whether or not you've got a mission to improve representation, I think we would really advocate this way of working, because it will just push your practice into really much more exciting and surprising and brilliant directions.
PAUL WILSHAW
I think what you just said is so true, and I think I've just seen the handbook that you guys have actually been working on about how to work with people with learning disabilities. And I love that you said, we're not experts, and it was your first time starting out and stuff, and there was something really nice that you said, just be kind. Kindness is one of your major things. Then I was just like, but so many times people forget that, and I think that's really important, the stuff that you have put, so I've looked at it, and yeah, I thought there was so much that a lot of companies do forget, and casting directors and people like that do forget, because we've been in this industry for so long, you do forget it. And so when you're starting out new it is kind of a really nice thing to actually just say it's okay. This is what we've learned. You've taken that experience that you've got and you want to share that so
LUCY BELL
Oh that's really lovely, Paul. And like, I was just thinking, You know what I was saying about working memory, that like, that isn't necessarily, like a just a learning disability thing, either because within our within our team, you know people who didn't have learning disabilities, you know that they might be affected by working memory according to sort of like hormonal stuff that was going on, or how much sleep they'd had, do you know what I mean? And then actually just addressing that head on, and saying, look, this is a kind space where nobody is expected to hold hundreds of pages of script in their head. Let's just find a creative way to all really shine with what we can bring. That was just quite, I don't know Naomi, you could probably talk more about that.
NAOMI TURNER
Well, yeah, I just, it's lovely that you picked up on that, Paul, because I agree with you, like I think we forget, and I think this industry can make us a little bit hardened, and it's not a very kind of easy industry to work in, particularly at the moment, like the current climate and I just think that that's the one thing that we have control over. There's a lot of stuff that often feels out of our control, whether it's, we can't find funding, or we have to work to a certain kind of pressurized timeline because of, you know, the date with the venue, or just people's availability and, but the one thing you can actually control is how you kind of behave and treat other people in your team. So that feels kind of pretty instrumental to me as a Producer, and how you kind of create that, that culture from the get go, when you're building your team, when you're building the process, and how you expect, I guess everyone, yeah, to kind of work with each other, like you were saying, we're definitely not experts.
But what, what we're really keen to do is to share our learnings. And I think sometimes people don't try stuff because they're scared of getting it wrong. But theatre is actually about getting things wrong a lot, until you get it right. That is literally what we do. We rehearse and we rehearse and we get it a little bit wrong every time, but we constantly do that until we get it right. And so I think, yeah, the toolkit is just about saying that, look, we've given it a go, and by sharing our learnings with people, you know about our specific projects and our process and who we worked with, and this is what we found, and hopefully it can kind of give people some confidence to also go ahead and do it, because, like Lucy was saying earlier, the process was just so liberating. We just wish and hope that so many more people would work in an integrated way. Because it's, yeah, it's very life affirming. I mean, I think there was that moment in the casting audition where everyone was singing kind of like a warm up song, and we sang ‘Somewhere Over The Rainbow’ together, and there was just this absolute moment where you could really feel it. Everyone in the room was just feeling this is so special that we are all here together, kind of singing the song at the top of our lungs. And yeah, more of that.
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah, and talking about that, about opportunities and stuff. I know that Documental are so keen on creating opportunities for learning disabled artists in the South West. What are the opportunities like now down South? Can you tell us what it's like now and why is it important to you?
LUCY BELL
Well, there's quite a lot of kind of art stuff happening in the South West. And there's, there's drama hubs, like ‘Get Changed’, and there is ‘Funky Llama’, part of Theatre Royal, Plymouth.
NAOMI TURNER
‘Far Flung Dance’
LUCY BELL
‘Far Flung Dance’, and ‘The Creative Connections’ in Exeter. I think the next step for everyone is just trying to work out how engaging in those spaces can kind of move forward to, like professional careers. Because it's always tricky in the far South West, because it's such a big geographical spread. Lots of people live rurally, you know, so it's hard to travel to work, and also often what happens in Devon particularly is people have little kind of communities that are in pockets, but they're not necessarily connected up to all the other communities. So we're, I mean, like we're only a small company, we're basically me and Naomi, and then we bring in people on projects. But what we've been trying to do for a little while now is just try and connect up as much as possible with these hubs.
And like we facilitate a Makaton singing and signing choir that is mostly adults with learning disabilities and some carers and teaching assistants and stuff, but like, the more that we kind of get that footprint, the more we hope that you can pass opportunities and connect people up, It's very hard to choose to want to do something that you can't see is actually happening.
So there's only a limit to how much we're going to be able to shape that space, but we just hope that if we can keep finding out about stuff, keep connecting with people, keep trying to support where opportunities come online, then all of that starts to become more of a possibility for those talented individuals, you know, and there's so many structural barriers as you will know all about Paul and you could talk much better than us like to do with your benefits and your housing and carer support, all that stuff. And I suppose that's why I felt like it was so important to make people aware of the history of the long stay hospitals. Because how can you expect people to visualize really full adult lives when for 100 years or so they literally didn't have a life? Do you know what I mean?
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah, no, I totally get what you mean.
LUCY BELL
It's all connected, isn't it?
PAUL WILSHAW
You said about Makaton just now, about that you do a singing group and stuff like that. In ‘Mary and the Matrons’, you use Makaton. Can you explain to me why that's important in your piece, and some people might ask why you've decided to use Makaton instead of BSL?
LUCY BELL
So obviously BSL is there for individuals with hearing impairments, but, I mean, I can only speak of my own lived experience as someone who lives with someone who's non-verbal and has severe learning disabilities, but BSL is inaccessible to her because it's too complicated. It's got very, quite, you know, some quite complicated hand shapes. And it's, you know, the kind of syntax, and the sentences are quite, you know, well, it's basically, yeah, it's, it's trying to communicate what you would otherwise be doing if you were speaking, I guess.
So Makaton is quite a different thing. It was developed in the long stay children's hospitals by two speech therapists, and it does draw from BSL, but the whole idea of it is that it's simplified, so there's only a few core handshakes that you need to be able to make that someone with physical disabilities would be able to produce. I mean, not everyone, but a lot of people would be able to and also the concepts are simpler.
Yeah. So, I mean, it's been life changing for us, because my, you know, you can imagine how frustrated you would be if you literally had no form of communication with other people. And my daughter started learning Makaton when she was about three, and it just opened up her whole world that now, and even now she's nearly 13, it's still the main thing she uses, I would say, there’s space for both languages. And I just wish Makaton was much more visible and much more used, because we, Documental done singing and signing sessions at a day centre in Haverly for adults with learning disabilities. And I've met some of the parents, and they've said, you know, look, my daughter's 45, she can literally only use Makaton signing. She can't talk, she can't understand otherwise, and yet none of her carers can use Makaton. I mean, that to me, is shocking.
It felt really important that Makaton should be in the in the musical, and also just authentic to the story, because the character Millie is a child who would use Makaton. So, you know, there were still, although she was now verbal as an adult, which often happens that people are non-verbal for a really long time and then become a bit more verbal as they get older. You know, her and her mum still had that kind of fall back form of communication, and it's not, with Makaton, you can sign and talk at the same time. That's another thing. So it's really beautiful. It's a really beautiful language.
I think Makaton has got this kind of profile as almost being something for children, you know, like you see it on Mr. Tumble, you know, Something Special. Kids learn it in foundation at primary school. But as I was just saying, you know, there's thousands of adults who can only communicate through Makaton, and I think there needs to be more adult appropriate stuff out there that is Makaton signed.
PAUL WILSHAW
It's great also, about BSL now going to be taught as a language in schools. I think that's brilliant. These are languages, basically. These are languages to help people learn. So why aren't we teaching both? And then we're not excluding people.
LUCY BELL
When you look at the figures for users for BSL and Makaton, you're talking million plus people, you know, in the UK population. So there's a really good reason for that. And also, if you're a, what do they call it, kinaesthetic learner, like you're more of a you like learn more through doing and movement and using your hands. It's much better for you to learn BSL than Italian, isn't it?
PAUL WILSHAW
Exactly. So this is going to be my last question, where would you like ‘Mary and the Matrons’ to go on tour?
LUCY BELL
So we're basically doing some manifesting now Paul?
PAUL WILSHAW
Yep, yep. We're bigging it up, and we're promoting it to the Producers and the Directors that need to hear this
NAOMI TURNER
Well, I don't know, Lucy might tell me off for kind of taking this approach, but I actually, for me, it's not about the kind of the big kind of names, necessarily. It's not about like, the best and biggest venues. It's actually about the venues that can really get on board and support this production, and who we are holding in this production and what it stands for. And I really think that any venue that has accessibility and inclusivity like at the heart of what it's doing, but also wants to, champion a production, which is trying to really change the way that we do things and support that kind of integrated way of working, that's where we want to be going. We would really love to be in venues that understand that, you know, this kind of ambition of ours, and the kind of ambition of the project
LUCY BELL
Also, any you know, venues that want to come with us on the journey of just learning. You know, you don't, like you were saying Paul, you don't need to have it all worked out. And I think we wouldn't have had the confidence to do this project if we hadn't had an amazing steering group yourself on it, Paul, you know, sort of artists with learning disabilities, creative enablers, people who work in the sector, you know, who could just point out the things that we were missing, you know, and what they felt was important. So, you know, like, we'd say, any venues who feel like they're maybe not doing loads of this kind of thing, but that they would like to sort of explore that space, you know, come and hook up with us, like, but, we do also think we do, both Naomi and I, and the team, feel like this is going to be a commercially successful musical, because, you know, when we did the sharing, it was only we were only sharing part of the musical, and we got four standing ovations, and people were just coming out of theatre really glowing and buzzing. And, you know, they really loved the music that Ben Glass composed. You know, they, and I think what was kind of cool was that some people had come who normally never go to musicals, and hate musicals, but love theatre. And some people who'd come, who would never go to straight theatre, but love musicals, and they both seemed happy. So we do think that the show has got a lot of potential to get bums on seats, because it seems to have quite a broad appeal.
NAOMI TURNER
Well, I think, we were recently kind of getting our heads, into kind of that draft two kind of phase and getting some really helpful feedback. Shout out to Alex Jackson, who gave us a really, really helpful zoom session recently. And we were kind of really honing in on what the like, its essence, like, what the musical is about, and not just what happens, what's the action, but like, what is it really kind of, getting to the heart of, and it's the kind of tension between being free, finding freedom, whilst also the right support as well, and that not kind of holding you back, or kind of clipping your wings or and, yeah, and how you find that kind of that, well, actually, that, you know, there's no answers, but it's different to everyone, what that looks like. But the tension between that and it's something that I think everyone can relate to, and also that kind of mother and daughter relationship between Lou and Millie and, you know, it's really big, kind of universal, kind of things that the musical is exploring, which are bigger than what it might kind of seem like on the surface.
LUCY BELL
Yeah, it's kind of about, how do you care for the people that you feel responsible for in a way that that kind of has those safety nets, but still lets them fly. That's kind of the core thing in the musical and that's pretty much going to be something anyone in their life is going to have to grapple with so.
PAUL WILSHAW
Yeah, no, I love it. And yeah, I think it's also about, just freedom, but also, yeah, just being, I moved my whole life up from Dorset to Bradford. It's also about the family connection of letting go and yeah, everyone's got to let the children grow and everything. So that's why I love it.
So I just want to say a massive thank you both for being on this podcast. The next podcast will be done by Disability Arts Online. If you want to find out more about Documental, please type it onto Google and put Documental theatre in there, and you'll find all about this company and the brilliant work they are doing and ‘Mary and the Matrons’. So thank you once again, and take care listeners, and hope you're all safe and well, bye.
LUCY BELL
Bye
NAOMI TURNER
Bye
OUTRO
Thank you for listening. We do hope you've enjoyed this episode of Disability And. Further episodes of Disability And can be found on the Disability Arts Online website at www.disabilityarts.online.