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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the bible. Let's get into the episode.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Welcome back to The Debrief. Thanks for having David Sharzin again on the episode. For those of you who joined and watched our last episode, David, we're gonna jump into some questions. And I appreciate our audience that sends in questions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Tammy and I went out to dinner with a couple, and the gal's name was Annie. And she fired about 17 questions at me. And I was like, can you please send those into the debrief because our our most frequent question asker is Annie, Annie Moss. And I just said, just send him in. She had questions about end times, salvation wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Security. I mean, I was her husband was like, woah. And I was just, like, loving it. But it was just, like, tennis. She was firing him in.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I was firing him back. And so send your questions in. And so many of you, you stop me in the lobby and you ask a great question. And what I would love to do is answer it once so that we can bless the thousands of people listen So to the if you've got a great question, the lobby is a great place for a handshake. A better place for questions is the debrief.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So send them in. So we're gonna start way out in Africa. Wow. Because I know you have a passion for Africa. Yes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And this is from Calvin from Nairobi, and I've never been to Nairobi, I've been close. Never been to Kenya, maybe I have, I have to ask some of our team because I don't know what country we were in when we were out there, but we were in Northern Tanzania. So I may have been in Kenya, didn't know. But it says, I'm a pastor who's seen God do great things. This is Calvin in Nairobi.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I am also one that has gone through a lot of hits. Welcome to ministry. What can God not do? Does he choose which miracles to perform and which not to? So here's the thing, Calvin, I think one of
Pastor David Chrzan:the frustrating things in ministry is when
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:you see God do something amazing somewhere else.
Pastor David Chrzan:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think what we gotta do as children is we gotta focus on the gifts under the tree that we receive and not look at the gifts that other kids got. Mhmm. Because there's always a reason why the Lord gives some gifts to others and he gives the gifts he gives to me. What I believe is, Calvin, that the Lord gave me whatever I can handle. If somebody got something bigger Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Somebody got something better, in my eyes, it just means I can't handle that gift and I'm not ready for that. And and, you know, with great gifting comes great responsibility to quote Spider Man, right? I mean, Man's greatest episode ever in terms of Marvel. But I think it's really easy to get envious and I was saying this with my wife the other day, we were looking at a couple on Instagram and I was just commenting to her, you know, I said, look, that person is coming to me for counseling. They're suicidal.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And she said, well, they look so great. And she held up the phone on Instagram and I just said, repeat after me, social media is lies. That's what it is. And so just because somebody can smile on a photo. So we don't know what's going on on the inside, what's happening.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the Lord may have blessed a person with something, and there might be a real need that we don't know about Yeah. What's going on the inside. So maybe somebody got a promotion or a job that you didn't get because they need a win, because they're suicidal and and they're struggling. And so I would just say, look, God is the giver of gifts. I've actually and I didn't read this question, you guys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've actually been so convicted by this in my journaling. I've tried to start off my journaling every day just thanking God. Because I've tended to focus on the things I want God to give me, and I've just got into this rut of asking. And I told my wife, I said, I had not been grateful and just for what God has done. And I've just, every day I've tried to make a list of he's done for me financially, what he's done for me professionally.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have healthy kids. Have a healthy marriage. A lot of things, and nobody cares about their health till you don't have it. It's like your big toe. You don't think about it until you do, and then it's never good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Amen? Like, it's like, oh my gosh, what happened? And so, you know, Calvin, what I would just say is serve God with all you've got, with whatever gifts He's given you. And I know people, you know, you probably read my book and I'm getting this constantly, you know, I can't believe God used you to raise somebody from the dead. And I say, well, God rose him from the dead.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And it was one time in thirty years of ministry. One time. And I've prayed other times and it hasn't happened and so again, all I can say is sometimes God brings people back from the dead, right? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We we can't be Christian if we don't believe that. But oftentimes people die and that's just the way that is. So I just try to focus on handling the miracles I've received. Yeah. What what are your thoughts on that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because God's used you to do amazing things.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. Well, not raise anybody from the dead, but I I would say, you know, God God doesn't do miracles to show off. Yeah. You know? I think God does miracles to he he always does miracles because he wants to teach us something.
Pastor David Chrzan:Mhmm. I remember, you know, when you read the the story in Exodus of Moses, and Moses has this burning bush experience and and God says to him, you know, what is that in your hand? It's a staff. He says, throw it down. He throws it down, and then it becomes alive.
Pastor David Chrzan:It turns into a snake. Right. You know? And then he tells Moses, pick it back up. And and so he reaches down and Charlton Heston Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. He reaches down. It turns back into a stick. And you go, well, what what is what is the purpose of that? And oftentimes in miracles, it teaches us more about who God is and who we are.
Pastor David Chrzan:And in that particular case, Moses' staff represented his identity, his income, and his influence.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:And when he laid it down, when he gave it over to God, God made it come alive. Mhmm. And what's interesting about that miracle too is every time after that miracle, it's never referred to again as Moses' staff. It's referred to as the rod of God. Mhmm.
Pastor David Chrzan:So oftentimes, you know, when God does or doesn't do a miracle, it's about the kind of character he wants to produce in us, and it's about the lesson that he wants to teach us. And oftentimes, I know when people are going through difficult situations, a lot of people go immediately to the question, why?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Pastor David Chrzan:Why me? Why now? Why this? You know, so forth. And oftentimes, the better question to ask is, God, what are you trying to teach me?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor David Chrzan:Because oftentimes, we go through hardships because God wants something to come out of us. It's like steeping us. It's like, you know, steeping is when you when you take a bag of tea and a dry tea and then you you steep it. You you you kinda plunk it or dink it or whatever into the hot water. And that's what brings out all the flavor.
Pastor David Chrzan:And oftentimes, when we go through situations like that, it's God bringing out the best in us. And I think the other thing that I would say to to Calvin, one, thank you for your ministry there in Nairobi. Amen. You know, I some of the some of the most faithful men and women of God that I've met on on the ground of Kenya in in and around the the area of Nairobi. So thank you for what you're doing.
Pastor David Chrzan:I I would also say that, you know, in in situations where you're asking God for a miracle, and you might get into that comparison that you were talking about, there's there's there's another Peter principle out there. You know, the Peter principle is oftentimes people get promoted to the level of their competency. But the other Peter principle is the Peter in the gospels where Jesus looks at Peter and says, what's it to you? Mhmm. Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:You know? Yeah. He's well, what about all those guys with that? But but what's that to you? Mhmm.
Pastor David Chrzan:Your your experience with me and the miracles is different than what they're gonna have. So what what is what is that to you? So it it doesn't matter what they have. What what's what is that to you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And the question Peter's asking there, just in reference to the end of Gospel of John, is this rumor that John will live forever.
Pastor David Chrzan:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that and and and he's saying, is is that true? And and the Lord looks at Peter and what is what is that to you? Yeah. Like, you know, your life, you know, I I think if as Christians, we could spend a lot more time looking in the mirror than in the window. And in the window, right, we're looking out at like what's God's doing everywhere else and it's like we're missing what he wants to do in me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so so what I would say is, Calvin, at the end of the day, the Lord chooses all miracles. Yeah. So when people even use the language, you know, you raise somebody somebody from the dead. No. No.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Lord chose to use my hands to raise somebody. But here's the thing is, you know, and I wrote a book about this, Calvin, I'd love to get it to you, but Jesus says you do not have because you do not ask. So we gotta ask, but then we have to put the answer in his
Pastor David Chrzan:hands. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The question is in our hands, the answer is in his hands. So we have to do our part, is, Lord, here's what I want. And and here's the thing I've learned, you know, my wife loved this country star in the nineties. I can't think, we wrote the song Thank God for Unanswered Prayer. Nobody knows.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Garth Brooks. Garth Brooks, there we go. Thank you. Garth Brooks wrote that song, and again, I said in my book, there's no such thing as unanswered prayer because God says yes, no, or wait to every prayer. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But there's a there's a there's a reason God says no, and we won't fully understand until we understand. And there's just so many things that I asked for, and I was laughing at my journal. I just said, God, you know, I wrote down all these things, God, you just give me this, I'll be so happy. And God has given so much more beyond I was just I was showing Tammy my journal from 02/2007. Wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So, yeah. It was it was absolutely hilarious, some of the things that I was asking for that I'm grateful that God said no to, but at the time were very painful noes. Sure. And And probably incredibly important.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So alright. Let's go to is it Trina? Trina, I need to wear my glasses to our debrief listeners from Lake Arrowhead. I love Lake Arrowhead.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You guys live in Lake Arrowhead in the most beautiful place in SoCal. I love it up there. What is your biblical research revealed? Oh, this is a good question. To you regarding the disciple whom Jesus loved, can you explain what and why this is and how this one disciple is referred to it in scripture?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, Trina, here's the thing is, I mean, soon as you Google that, you're gonna get all kinds of explanations and all kinds of understandings of who this is. Traditionally, this is the church's traditional view, is that it's John referring to himself. That he's in his old age and he's reflecting back and instead of using his name, I John saw this, he's remembering himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved. And at the end of his life, in first John, second John, and third John, the theme of his life is love.
Pastor David Chrzan:Love.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's love, love, love. And he refers to the church as dear children because when you're 90, everybody's a kid to you. And so that's what I think. Now, people are changing that, scholarship is arguing that, and so here's the thing you need to know. When you get your PhD, I can't write my PhD saying David was right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I get my PhD by challenging David's assumption. It's got to be new work. And so what happens when that inevitably, we've been studying Scripture for two thousand years, modern scholarship tends to challenge old ideas. Because that's how you do research, you challenge, you criticize, you present a new theory. Here's the thing, Trina, I'm gonna assume the early church fathers had much better information than I did.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the Gospel of John is not attested to anyone other than John until really recently, the nineteenth and twentieth centuries when you get German scholarship, you get critical theory, you get these people who start off with ideas like the Bible is in the inspired word of God. Miracles aren't real. And they start questioning and challenging the things in the Bible. I think John was trying to, in humility, tell a story that he saw Mhmm. Because he talks about whom we've seen, what I saw, and from time to time, he refers to himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's my opinion. I don't know what your thoughts on the subject are.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. I I would say it goes to that place. I think any of the disciples could have could have written that. Yeah. But I think John, there's something about his message.
Pastor David Chrzan:You see it all through everything that he's written. This theme of love, this theme of truth comes out. And any disciple could have said, I'm I'm the disciple Jesus loved because they all had their backstory. Yeah. Everybody's got a backstory.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, Judas could have said that.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. Yeah. And and so it it it's it's almost like a term of endearment back to just the fact that I I I was one of the guys Jesus loved. I mean, I'm thinking back to, you know, when when Jesus when John wrote third John, they think that that particular book was probably his last note that he wrote, right? He wrote wrote that after Revelation.
Pastor David Chrzan:Well, he's 90 years old. Yeah. He's the OG original 12. Yeah. Like, everybody else is gone.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. Everybody else is gone. And he's still championing the love of Christ and living in the truth, and and so I think that I think it was it just meant so much to him that I would've I would've if man, if I was right and I'd I'd have identified myself the same way. I'm the disciple who Jesus loved because that's that's who I am. Because we can we can all say that.
Pastor David Chrzan:I'm the disciple who Jesus loved. Yep. Yeah. He loved me too. Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:So not so much his his the, you know, trying to get into the historic or the research of it, but just the spiritual value in what that hit John positioning himself in saying that. That gives us permission to do that same thing to say. I can say that Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so part of the reason John is attacked, so kind of what I was taught, and you were taught the same thing growing up as a kid in church, is that the Gospels are eyewitness accounts. So one of the first thing that critical scholars or liberal scholars try to do is attack authorship. And so what they believe is if they can remove John, then now the Gospel of John is not important. So they go after his authorship. And so here's the ultimate thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We don't have John here. We can't call him up from the dead and say, hey, did you write this? Yeah. So nobody really knows in the end. The question is, is John the Gospel of John, is it authoritative?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is is it scripture or not? All of Christians throughout history, no one has ever questioned its authorship. It has been included in every canon of scripture. Everyone, all the churches around the Mediterranean world, they all considered this to be the word of God. And so why then is John picked and attacked?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You can make a case if you just read Matthew, Mark, and Luke, you know, that maybe Jesus isn't God. I still think that there's a case to be made there that he's God. You have to remove John. Because if John begins, in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. That's the first few sentences of John.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So really, people to deny the deity of Jesus, they attack the gospel of John. And that's why it gets so much attention. But you just gotta know there's so much of modern scholarship, it's just theories. It's just theories and it's ideas trying to make sense and ask questions that ultimately we don't know why there are subtle differences and real similarities between the synoptic gospels. So is sight, so optic, right, the way you see it or excuse me, is same, optic is sight.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sorry, my Greek is a little rusty there. But Matthew, Mark, and Luke, John are are very similar and so and then John is so different. And so why is that? And so, you know, people wanna say, well, John is written by a second century person and that's when Christians believe that Jesus was God, but man, when we read what's considered to be the oldest scripture, is first Corinthians 15, it's called the Kergamah, and it's the original statement of of what Christians believe, and Paul says Christ was crucified, died, rose again from the dead, and he is Lord, like, it's it's right there in the original. So I believe that it was was John, but ultimately, it doesn't matter who wrote it because the Holy Spirit inspired whoever that was to write those words and scripture is inspired and authoritative, and I believe that everything that John wrote, John, first, second, third John, and Revelation are important parts of scripture.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's a great question. Alright. Let's go to Andrea. Is this Andrea or Andrea or Andre? You guys don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:From Riverside, California. Sorry. I don't know. I'm Jewish by birth. Hey.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Welcome. So maybe Andrea or Andrea, I'm sorry, I don't know. But I am born again, praise God for that. I have a question. For twenty five years now, in the Bible, says the only way to God is through Jesus.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know I'm saved, but what about my family? No one except my cousin and I have accepted Jesus and have been baptized. Will we see our Jewish loved ones in heaven? Man, thank you for such an amazing question, Andre or Andre, I don't know. Do you guys have any idea how to pronounce No one knows.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Lord knows you, he sees you, he loves you. And so I'm just gonna go with Andrea. Go for it. So I'm gonna go with Andrea. Andrea, and if I'm mispronouncing your name, I apologize.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What a beautiful question. So God chose the Jews to bring about the Messiah. He is faithful to them, he's never abandoned them, and he is with him, you know, through some pretty tough times. And so even if you're a Jewish person, you can't read the Jewish scriptures and say we were always faithful, we were always loyal Mhmm. We weren't sinful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's just not the Jewish story. It's not the Christian story either, so I'm not trying to proclaim superiority here. Here's what I believe is what you can do, Andre, is go to the Lord and say, I love my family dearly. And they are wrapped up in who I am. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I think it's appropriate to say, Lord, you've commanded me to love and I can't help but being worried about them because I love them and I can't imagine being apart from them forever. What I would say is, Andrea, Lord Jesus, I just commit them in your hands. Mhmm. And so here's the thing that a lot of Christians don't understand is the gospel says two things. One, that Jesus is the only way to be saved.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's important. There's no other way to be saved other than Jesus. We're promised salvation, promised by repenting of our sins and placing our faith and trust in him. Here's what a lot of Christians forget. He still executes judgment day.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. He has the authority. Yeah. He he has the authority. He can forgive anyone he chooses by whatever mean he chooses because you have to remember this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If if I murdered your wife, okay, and I love Jenny, and asked you for forgiveness, do you have to forgive me? I mean, I'm not saying as a Christian, but like simp simply asking you for forgiveness, does that absolve me of my sins? No. No. It's your choice.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. You choose to forgive me. So we had to remember simply because I believe believing in Jesus is not these magic words that produce salvation. Yeah. They're only powerful because Jesus in his sovereignty has decided to forgive all whom believe in him.
Pastor David Chrzan:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My salvation is still tied up in the same way as your non your non believing Jewish friends. It still is at the feet of Jesus. Mhmm. As a Christian, here's what I can have confidence in. I don't have to be word on judgment day because I'm trusting in what He said.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And what He said was, is all who believe in Him will be saved. What happens to Jewish people? What happens to Hindu kids that are good who never Here's heard the what happens. They stand before a loving and gracious and merciful God who died on the cross for their sins.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And I'm okay with whatever decision Jesus renders because he is good. Mhmm. Now, here's where we gotta be careful. Everybody goes to heaven.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That is not what the Bible teaches. Yeah. Jesus says, broad is the road that leads to destruction and narrow is the road that leads to life. So we have to walk with two tensions as Christians. One, Jesus is the only way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Two, Jesus is the only way. Yeah. And so the Bible says every knee will bow, every tongue will confess What that Jesus Christ is does that mean? We don't know. Other than everyone believes in the end.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So what I would do is just bring those things before the Lord and say, I love my Jewish friends. This is what many people miss about Romans ten, eleven and twelve. They miss this tension, and this is where a lot of Calvinists run rampant with this. The problem is Jews have been exiled from from Rome, they've been kicked out and now they've been let back in. Now the Jewish church that was planted in Rome is now all Gentiles.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Different customs, different diets, different foods, different beliefs. And so the question is, what do we do with this? And what Paul says, I believe in Romans nine, ten, 11 is God's not done with the Jews yet.
Pastor David Chrzan:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and and they're gonna have a seat at the table and here's why, because we as Christians have been grafted into their tree.
Pastor David Chrzan:That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because of the Jews, there's room for me. Mhmm. Now, does that mean every Jew is saved? Man, I I am not gonna go there, I'm not a universalist, but I believe there's probably gonna be more people in heaven than we think because God is a gracious God and he died for the sins of people. The gospel is the guarantee of salvation, That's what it is.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's why we preach it, man. And I I you know, I'll put it this way, I mean, we both lost friends to cancer. If I knew you if if you had cancer and I knew this is the cure Yep. Would I share this with you or just hope hope for the best
Pastor David Chrzan:for the doctors?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I hope you share with And this is why Christians need to share this rather than just hoping because here's the thing is, God's gonna hold us accountable for not sharing the good news.
Pastor David Chrzan:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Can you imagine if I withheld a cure for David and he's dying? That doesn't make me that's not make me a good person, so I need to share that. But what I would say is, Andrea, the Lord loves your Jewish family members more than you do. Yeah. I think one of the hardest things for Tammy and I and your parent Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I have to remind myself, I love Madison and I love Kennedy and I love Ethan in a love that I cannot describe. One of the things I'm looking forward to is my daughter holding her own kid. Because she's gonna experience some things Yeah. That I know are real Yep. That she hasn't experienced yet.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I love my son in laws like I never thought I would love. I mean, I'm all in on them. But the Lord loves them more. Yeah. To More.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I I was talking about this, you know, with Tammy, you know, our oldest is having a baby and I remember preparing the room for Madison. And it was Noah's Ark because we're creepy parents, you know, this is where the Lord killed everyone by drowning them. It was a little cute thing. Little cute Ark and a rainbow and you know, all the positive parts of this story for Madison. That's why she's in counseling.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I remember commenting to my wife, I love this person so much that I've never met. And and that's how God feels about us. I mean, he knows me, He's revealed Himself to me, but we've not met Mhmm. In the way you know, now Tammy's pregnant, I'm feeling Madison move, I'm seeing the effects of Madison. Yep.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I believe Madison is a real person. Yep. She's coming, is why we're preparing the room. But it was very different when I held her. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In the same way, think that's how it will be with God, but that's how God feels about, you know, you have family members that aren't Yep. I have family members that aren't Christians, and and we have to be very very careful and to remind ourselves, the Lord doesn't just love us, he loves them even though they haven't experienced that love. What what are your thoughts on that? I talked a lot.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. No. I think I think you hit it right on the head and I think in in questions like these, you know, I I heard it on there was a YouTube episode that was out there that people were questioning, like, the audacity that Jesus would say he's the only way to to God the father. And there's an element to that where I would say, Jesus has said, yeah, he's the only way to God the father, but Mhmm. How many ways are there to Jesus?
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. Millions. Yeah. Yeah. I might come to Jesus because of my because my financial situation.
Pastor David Chrzan:I might come because I have a drug addiction. I might come because I have a broken relationship that needs healing. I I I might come because I feel hopeless and I want I want hope or I want purpose. There's a lot of different reasons why people will come to Jesus. And so and Jesus is the one who ushers us into the presence of the father.
Pastor David Chrzan:But if you're with Jesus, you're in good company. Mhmm. You know, you're in good company. And and I know that, you know, I love the fact that when when we talk about the love of Jesus Mhmm. And God's love for us, it's for everyone.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Pastor David Chrzan:It's, you know, God's love is not just conditional on those who said, oh, I wanna follow him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. His his love pre you know, his his is the condition for that choice. That he he loves you even when we don't love him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Pastor David Chrzan:And that that's often the hardest thing when we see our family members not not seeing that. And I would say for for Nick and and or not Andrea.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Andrea. Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:For Andrea. You know, there's gonna come a time in your family member's life where they're kinda under tension or in transition. Maybe they get a promotion or maybe they maybe something they that something happens. They get a diagnosis they don't want. When those kind of transitions happen in people's lives, those are the opportunities to talk about God's love, to talk about all the things that we get from knowing Christ.
Pastor David Chrzan:We get access to healing power. We get access to power that helps us make it through. We get access to hope that helps us anchor ourselves in the toughest times. And and they get access to that too. Mhmm.
Pastor David Chrzan:And so, you know, Andrea, just be be on the lookout. Mhmm. Keep your eyes open for those moments in your family's life when you can see that. And then be be willing to be available. Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:Because it's not just about them knowing, it's going be about them experiencing the love of God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. And I would say this, Andrea. So one of the things that, you know, we were in Israel a couple years ago and I can't I'm gonna mispronounce her name, so I'll just call her Yonah, that's a that's a Jewish name. And her name wasn't Yonah, but we were we were in the the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And so that's the that's the spot where it's pretty it's it's pretty likely, you guys, that Christ was crucified, like, you know? Mhmm. And so, I mean, it's one of the it's it's an 1,850 year old Christian site. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So when Constantine's mother comes to Jerusalem, where did they crucify Jesus? They point to that spot. That's where he died. Like, just think about that. You know, I mean, that's like us, you know, where where did George Washington what what was the river that he crossed?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right here.
Pastor David Chrzan:Right here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like the so we know where that is. So it's not like, you know and I asked our guy, Gilda was her name. Mhmm. And and I said, Gilda, how does it make you feel to know that a billion Christians worship a Jew? And she said, never thought of it that way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because Jewish people don't think of Jesus as Jewish. Yeah. So we just talked about the gospels, Matthew, Jewish book. Yep. Mark, Jewish book.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Luke, Jewish book. John, Jewish book. Acts, a story about a bunch of Jews going all over the place. Okay? Romans Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:To to to mostly Jews Yeah. Or Christians, but saying, hey, let the Jews back in. You know, Corinthians, not so Jewish, a little wild, but but these are Jewish books Mhmm. Written by Jews to non Jews people to how to live this new life, how to live in the kingdom of God. And you know, we had a sermon series coming up called Big Picture, and I'm gonna meet with the creative team today to talk about this, but I'm gonna preach out to Jonah for the election series.
Pastor David Chrzan:Oh, wow.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Because you know, Jonah's divided, he hates Nineveh. Yep. Nineveh's their enemy, he's racist. Yep. Like he doesn't wanna go.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. And we can't reach people we hate. And and you know, and I remember, you know, Ethan and I were we went to a Jewish memorial or something, when he was a kid, it was like the Holocaust Memorial or whatever, and the guide was saying, you know, the Jews have never been evangelistic. I said, have you read Jonah? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, that whole book is is when he refused to evangelize, the Lord swallowed him. So the Lord loves the Jews and so what I would try to do is frame much of what we know about first century Judaism is from the Gospels. So like if you go to the University of Hebrew or the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, you study the Gospels to understand first century Judaism. Why is that? They burned and killed everybody else.
Pastor David Chrzan:Everybody else.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The Christians fled at the sack when Rome sacked them, the Jews stayed and died. They they destroyed the temple, they killed all of the leaders. I mean, was ugly. So what we know of first century Christian Judaism is preserved in the gospels. So see it as that and then read Romans nine, ten, and 11 and remind yourself, Andrea, the Lord loves your family.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. That's what Paul is saying. He hasn't forsaken the Jews and there's a verse in there that I hope will speak to you, that he's hardened the hearts of the Jews Mhmm. To make room for the Gentiles. That's right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So God is working even in the hardness of Jewish hearts Yep. To make room for Gentiles. And then he says, when the age of the Gentiles is complete, he's gonna do something else. So just understand that and so hopefully that'll give you hope. Other thoughts?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. I I just rambled.
Pastor David Chrzan:No. But that's great. I love the idea of of Jonah there because, you know, oftentimes, you know, we we oftentimes, we we will not win our enemies to Christ, we'll only win our friends. Yeah. Amen.
Pastor David Chrzan:So until your enemy becomes your friend, you know, you can pray for them all you want. Yeah. But until you until you reach out, until you make them a friend, oftentimes the gospel doesn't doesn't get there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. Alright. Last question from Nick in Riverside. What is your opinion on apologetics? And do you think that equipping believers to defend their faith or do wait.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And do you think that equipping believers to defend their faith is important? Oh, man. How do I share this in a non offensive way, Nick? I'm not a big fan of apologetics, but I think it's necessary.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that at I think apologetics is very dangerous in the hands of Christians. I think it's a very very good thing in the hands of skilled debaters and philosophically trained Christians in logic and people with PhD because you've gotta be very, very careful that I think it's so hard for us to argue without getting energized. A trained apologetics person going to learn to argue and debate without being aroused by passions and energies. And I just think for the average layperson, I mean, I don't argue well with my wife.
Pastor David Chrzan:Do you argue fair?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I I try. She would say no. She would say no. Yeah. And so and so here's listen very carefully.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My wife doesn't like to argue with me and here's why, she says I'm better at it. Okay, let's say I am. It doesn't win her over. Yeah. That's So proving her wrong doesn't make us right.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So that's what's dangerous with apologetics. So do I think it's necessary? One of my favorite Christians is William Lane Craig. I'd love to have him on the show, if you guys can make it happen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He's fantastic. I think that there are do need people that can argue for Scripture. Like I was watching a debate between a prominent Christian apologetist and a Muslim, And the Muslim said, you know, we have one Torah, sorry, Muslim friends, we have one Quran and the Christians have multiple translations and that's why the Quran is right and Christians are wrong. And this apologetist just went, look, the third caliph, he said, give me all the documents, bring them together and he made one. So that's that's why Muslims have one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was like, oh, I didn't know that. I I didn't know that. And the Muslim guy said that's not true and apologeticist said, look it up. It's true, I have the manuscripts. And that's why they have one Koran because, you know, you can and I think we can all imagine in The Middle East that we can create one thing rather quickly, whereas in the Western world, Christianity didn't spread through war, it spread through evangelism and it was Ethiopian, it was Egyptian, it was Syrian which is, you know, modern day Syria.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It was in Jerusalem, it was in and we call it Constantinople, but that was Rome, So it was up there. It was in Rome. It was in Galatia. It was in it was all over the place and you couldn't control it. And so here's the beauty of our manuscript is we can see the changes.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We have thousands of manuscripts. We can see where the error was made. If you just have one document, you don't know. Yeah. And it's actually, I think, God's sovereignty, it's a better way to trace and say, okay, here's the earliest source.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think it's important to know why we would believe what we believe. I think apologetics is healthy. I think you should be able to know why why is the Bible reliable? Why can't why can't I trust scripture? I need to know that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yep. Why why is it reasonable to believe that Jesus was a real person? That the gospels were not written hundreds of years later, that they're actually probably I mean, many people now are dating the appalling epistles to fifty A. Sixty A. D.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Some are going as early as '45 now. Why is that? There's no mention in the Bible of the fall of of Jerusalem. We know that happens in seventy AD.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So everything that we have most likely was written before that happened. Yeah. Maybe with the exception of Revelation. We don't know. So I think apologetics are helpful for people who want to argue, I just think you need to be really good at it and you have to remember, apologetics is not about winning a point, it's about winning a person.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. And I think it's why I hate our politics now. Politics is like, oh, slam dunk and nobody's saying anything. I'm just like, okay, like what like what are we gonna do here? Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Rather than name call. And so oftentimes that's what it turns into and, you know, I think we need to learn how to explain our faith, but we need to do so very carefully. And that's why things like this show, I answer these questions. I've been studying this for thirty years. If that's what you wanna do, I would say go into a full time job, make it your ministry, like go all but the way don't be a part time apologist.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, it's like, I'm a part time surgeon. I got a discount on knee replacements. Anybody want one? And we got Christians running around, going to universities, ticking people off. And what I would much rather do is share the hope.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:God loves you.
Pastor David Chrzan:Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He sent his son to die for you.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, you know, and again, well, if God's so loving, why is there no His ark? God loves you and he's always had a plan and that plan ultimately was not to punish you but himself on the cross and his name is Jesus. So at Saddleback, did you guys do a bunch of apologetics? You had you a couple of guys, the guy that wrote case for a verdict or
Pastor David Chrzan:what was Yeah. Had well, Lee Strobel was John Stonestreet was another. Greg Kochel was another. Turic was another. Norm Geisler, you know Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah. Who recently passed, you know, a few years ago. Those guys dedicated their lives Yeah. To apologetics. And that's important.
Pastor David Chrzan:Absolutely. And even William Lane Craig
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:Which we can talk about later about that one. But the thing that I appreciate about apologetics is it anchors the stories. It anchors all the teachings. It anchors it all in reality. Yeah.
Pastor David Chrzan:It's not like this was these are made up documents. It's not like it was trying to support some some fantasy thing or some just religious practices. These are the apologetics anchors our our faith in the real world. Yeah. You know?
Pastor David Chrzan:It's not something to beat somebody over the head with in in that. And so I really appreciate your posture on that as well. Because it is about the person. It's not about being right. It's about being reconciled, you know, in all of that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So But it's okay for a study like, you know, we had some Mormon missionaries that knock on my door and I feel so bad for them because BYU has come out and said, the Book of Mormon is not a historical book. Like like, what are you doing, elder Matt, who's 17? You know, like, what are you doing with your life? Like, your own university has come out and said, look, these these stories are not historical truth. Now, that doesn't mean that they don't believe that they have theological meaning or purpose or whatever, but apologetics has established and by the way, there is no more criticized religion in the world than Christianity.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it stood the test of time. Yeah. People have been coming after the Bible for hundreds of years and it still stands.
Pastor David Chrzan:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Who was it? Frederick Nietzsche that said in a hundred years, God will be dead? Well, he's dead. Yeah. And you know, the church is growing and thriving all over the world because a guy really died on the cross and really rose.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And and so that's important. So so Nick, I think if God's given you a personal passion, Talbot University at Talbot University. Biola University has a school called Talbot, and they have a great I think they still have a great apologetics arm. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's a great place to go. What I would say is if you're gonna go in on all of that, you gotta care about people as much as you do about caring about being right. Yeah. And what I've seen is most people just wanna argue and they feel good because they made somebody feel bad. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, a lot of debates are just like, you know, oh, I embarrassed them and didn't they look stupid? And I'm sitting there going, okay, but they're further from God than they were before.
Pastor David Chrzan:Sure.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I don't like feeling stupid. I don't like, you know, feeling dumb. I mean, I'm learning things all the time and I'm like, oh, I didn't know that, I you was watching somebody on their phone the other day, she was sliding her finger on the picture while she was taking it, editing it in real time and I'm like, you can do that? And she's like, oh yeah, with your phone. She's teaching me how to use my own phone, I'm like, okay, you know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I felt dumb, but you know, like I'm glad she didn't say, and you call yourself a Christian, you know, you moron. So we gotta be really, really careful that we don't we don't just argue with people. I follow this Muslim convert on TikTok and he just slams Muslims and feels good about it and I'm just like Yeah. Buddy, you know, know, Jesus didn't go around to make people feel stupid. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He went around and I and I, you know, this guy actually does convert some people, which blows my mind, but I think there's a there's a better way Sure. To do that. So apologetics is defending your position. So I don't know how it's become kind of the Christian word, but apologetics is the defending of anything, not just Christianity. You know, scientists study apologetics to defend their position, philosophers to to defend their position, and Christians to defend what they believe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so that's where the word comes from, but to defend or give a reason why you believe what you believe. And I think that's important, but ultimately for Christians, Nick, really it's our testimony. You know, because because how can somebody tell you false, David, that's untrue? Like you can't tell me that my interaction with God is not real. You can't tell me that what Jesus has done for my life is not real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You can choose to to not believe it, but you can't you can't tell me Yeah. And dictate for me. And that's why I say your testimony and your life is the most important truth for people because you just say, look, here's what Jesus did for me and here's what I think he can do for you. And everybody's struggling with shame. Everybody's struggling with guilt.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And those that aren't are just they're just really good at lying to themselves right now because at some point, you gotta look yourself in the mirror. So Yeah. Nick, I think it's a great thing. We don't do a lot of it here at Centrals Church because again, I think it just it transforms Christians into jerks and not everyone, but enough that it's like Christian softball leagues, like I'm not a fan, you know, like let's start a softball league and then no one in our community will wanna come because are at our best when we're competing? I don't think so.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I've been to enough church leagues, soccer leagues. Actually, Sandals got asked to de join a league once. And like four of our pastors were on the team. I was like, what is going on? And it's when you're competitive, right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You get fired up and you get pumped up, and that's happened to me, it's not just others. But that's what happens in apologetics. When we're going to debate, really it's not the truth, it's the zingers, and how do I make you feel stupid. Yeah. So and I I don't think I don't think the Lord I mean, when Jesus says woe to anyone who calls his brother Raqa, they're in danger of the fires of hell, we don't know what that word is, but it's insulting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. When you insult someone, that's a problem. So Nick, if the Lord's leading you down that, here's what I would say, go all in and get really good, but love people as much as you love the truth. Yeah. Alright, guys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Thanks for listening. Let's give David a hand. David Sharzin, he can't spell his name, but you do
Pastor David Chrzan:matter to him. You can now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, you can too. David Sharzin, thanks for checking out this episode. You can always submit your own questions to the podcast. By the way, David is the campus pastor at Hunter Park Volunteer, kids ministry, always needed. Parking lot ministry, right, always Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's super helpful. Absolutely. Find a seat in the dark, you know, we like to still blind, you know, in there. But come meet him at Hunter Park and be praying for all of our campuses. We love you guys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you wanna submit a question, you can go to move.sc/ or go to the Sandals Church app and look for the debrief and you can submit your question. Love you guys. Until next time. God bless.
Pastor David Chrzan:God bless.
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