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GVPOD is the podcast of the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade. President and CEO Bridgitte Anderson talks to leaders in the business community about the challenges and opportunities they experience, as well as issues impacting our region.
Bridgitte: Welcome back to GVPOD, Greater Vancouver's Business podcast. I'm Bridgitte Anderson, President and CEO of the Greater Vancouver Board of Trade. Today we're continuing our series on the Future of Vancouver. There are transformational changes happening right now, right across the city, and we're going to unpack the impact they will have on the businesses and the people who call Vancouver Home. Today I'm joined by Nate Sabine, board member of the Downtown Business Improvement Association, [00:00:30] and Director of Hospitality Vancouver Association, president of MusicBC, and also the Director of Business Development and Marketing with Blueprint. Welcome, Nate.
Nate: Hi. Thanks for having me.
Bridgitte: So you have been involved in the Vancouver nighttime economy for well over a decade, and with your roles at Blueprint, which is an owner of nightclub's, restaurant entertainment brands, you know, you probably are one of the best people positioned the city to really talk about what the nighttime economy [00:01:00] is. So maybe let's start with a definition. What do you, what do you think that is and what is it really for the city?
Nate: Yeah. Um, the nighttime economy is all the cultural and economic activity that takes place between, call it 5:00 PM and 4:00 AM. So, you know, we also refer to it as the other nine to five. Um, and what we found is that there's a bit of a movement worldwide, and this all started happening for our city pre pandemic. I wanna say it was about 2017-18 when [00:01:30] there's been this movement and there have been the appointment of nightmares and the establishment of offices of the nighttime economy in various shapes and forms across, uh, worldwide. Um, because it seems that the nighttime economy doesn't get its due, um, in terms of what it adds to the, the tax base, the economic impact, the amount of jobs, also the, just the general culture and safety, um, around nighttime activities. So, you know, we've, [00:02:00] we're, what we're trying to do is establish a base of, okay, this includes all of the workers. So whether it's a hotel worker or, uh, taxi driver or, um, somebody that does sound and light set a nightclub, or whether it's artists or bartenders or whoever it is, um, and really getting a good handle on what that means and the overall impact for our city.
Bridgitte: You know, and that's, uh, I think a really good point around the overall impact on the city, that when you think about a city's economy, and we're talking [00:02:30] about Vancouver's economy, the nighttime economy is a really important part of that. And quite frankly, I mean, it has been in decline for some time, hasn't it?
Nate: Yeah, it really has. And there are reasons for that. Again, trends worldwide. Uh, it started with the millennial group not being into nightclubs the same way that people from, from my age group were, or mine, or, or yours. Like, we're probably about the same. So it was, and it was a really [00:03:00] interesting trend, and that started about a decade ago where it wasn't that you could just have a nightclub and have some good local entertainment and open your doors, and people come in and just party and do their thing. Um, and that was do a lot to technology because the main reasons that people go out to nightclubs, to discover new music, to meet a partner and to, you know, have a few drinks and unwind. You can do two of those online really easily now, and you've been able to for a long time.
Nate: And the other is that, [00:03:30] um, just with innovation and creativity and everything and different offerings, people, there are, you know, wine bars and lots of breweries and this, that and the other thing. So, um, and then when you get to Vancouver specifically, what has happened, and this has been something that we've been fighting at City Hall since I can remember, um, is just bad legislation. Uh, um, it's very prohibitive in terms of the licensing, the zoning, um, even hours of operation capacity, you name it. So it [00:04:00] makes it uninviting for somebody to open a nightlife venue,
Bridgitte: Not only uninviting, but perhaps that's how we got the moniker of No Fun City. Yeah. Do you think that's still accurate, or is that maybe starting to change?
Nate: I, I think that it's been starting to change for a while. Um, when you start looking at the overall landscape of entertainment in the city. If you look at sports, um, festivals, which festivals are now in a bit of a crisis again, but for years and years they were strong. Uh, you look at, again, at nightlife and restaurants and the [00:04:30] fact that Vancouver is not no longer a flyover city for artists, you know, Vancouver is a major stop for artists. Um, I've been saying for a couple years now that if you still call Vancouver no fun city, then you're not trying very hard because there, there is a lot of stuff to do. There are lots of interesting things. Now is a world class, is it, um, something that I think that people who are planning a trip put at the top of their list, I'm gonna go to Vancouver for their nightlife? No, no. There's a lot of work to do, but it's [00:05:00] not where we were 15 years ago,
Bridgitte: But we've got this roadway in front of us, if you will. We've got a lot of big, big events coming to Vancouver over, and if we've, even if you just take the next three years and the end of that road would be FIFA World Cup, but we've got, you know, a lot of sporting events and cultural events and entertainment events coming, um, to the city. And so there is an urgency to start to shape things and, and put changes in place so that the nighttime economy [00:05:30] can thrive.
Nate: Mm-hmm. . Yeah. We need that stuff and we've needed it for, for years now. And when you look at what's happened with the Grandma Entertainment district, uh, where you might say that the height of activity there and the best years were 20 2009 to 2012, um, that's a long time ago now, and there's been things that have happened on that street since then that have sort of really negatively impacted what goes on in that [00:06:00] street. Um, we don't have to get into that now, but yeah, so with FIFA coming, especially, I mean, I was just at the mayor's office yesterday talking about how can we urgently approach this? What are the changes that we can enact within the next three years to turn the street around? Um, and again, when we say maybe it's not turning it around, it's improving it. And it's, again, it's things like zoning, putting up some more hotels, putting and compelling some restaurants to go there, [00:06:30] that type of thing. And getting more creative in the way that we use public space, because the street has a pretty bad reputation, I think, especially when you get outta the downtown core. Um, and, and people that live in Vancouver proper. And it's not all deserved. You know, there are still thousands of people down there having a good, safe time every weekend.
Bridgitte: Well, and you, I mean, the Grandville Entertainment District, it does seem like the, this new city council and new mayor that there is a new approach [00:07:00] and, you know, the development project, I think things are, are well in the works there, and it's not just entertainment space. There's also office restaurant. And so that could be quite transformational for that part of the downtown core.
Nate: Absolutely. Um, pre pandemic, we had just opened Good Co Granville, which, uh, was Colony Granville when we opened it, and we had such a bustling lunchtime and happy hour that it was, it was, um, it was a really nice surprise. [00:07:30] But, you know, that's one of the things the pandemic has really changed is the, the activity that happens after work. Um, and I'm sure that it's impacted retail on the street and, and all of the rest of it. So those things can happen fast enough. The, the 800 block of Granville cannot happen fast enough. You know, some of the zoning changes that people are asking for need to happen quickly if we're going to really make this a desirable location
Bridgitte: While you talk about changes and not happening [00:08:00] fast enough. Uh, you, I, the Hospitality Vancouver Association launched, uh, survey last month with Destination Vancouver asking people what they wanna see. Um, I know it's a bit early to talk about the results because they're still in the works, but are you getting any kind of, uh, ideas or themes coming forward?
Nate: Hmm, that's a, that's a really great question. So we haven't really started crunching the data because we had about 700 people fill out the online survey just randomly, [00:08:30] and they didn't have to be Vancouver people. So we haven't started crunching that data because it's something that you kind of have to do, but just, um, do all at once rather. But at a glance, there are a lot of similar themes, and those themes are around safety. Those seams are around accessibility and inclusion, um, and more. And when we say more, I think that we're talking in a general sense about, as my colleague, uh, Laura Balance puts it, [00:09:00] we are, we need to go from being a city with events to being an eventful city.
Bridgitte: So that's a great way to put it. Mm-hmm. ,
Nate: I, I agree and, and I've sort of adopted that and I'm using it a lot because when you talk about culture and, and, you know, creative interaction and all of these things that, uh, that a good strong city has, we're talking about family events. We're talking about, again, use of public space, interesting things to draw the eye and to draw [00:09:30] people into our downtown core, um, not just for sports and concerts. Um, it, yeah, it's, it's incredibly important.
Bridgitte: Well, you know, anybody who's traveled to other countries and you think about, um, how the use of public space is happening. You know, Mexico comes to mind with their use of plazas, zocalos, uh, in Europe, same thing, that there's these big open spaces that, as you say, draw people in. And, and I would love to see Vancouver to get to that place [00:10:00] where it is more open and more vibrant and more lively. But one of the things that, that plagues Vancouver right now is the challenges around public safety. And, and so that has to be dealt with, I think when we're talking about the nighttime economy. And you mentioned that it was even, uh, brought up in the survey as well.
Nate: Yes. Yeah. Um, I couldn't agree more. I think that any anybody in Vancouver would agree with that. It's, you know, let's, let's, um, walk before we run. [00:10:30] And I love the Plaza idea. I think that the Granville promenade that, that downtown van has been doing for the last couple years with, um, with support from city council, um, is, is a major step forward that way. But there are still you, you want to feel safe and you want to be able to bring your family. I mean, I have a six and a half year old daughter. You want to be able to bring them to those experiences mm-hmm. and feel completely safe.
Bridgitte: Looking at other challenges, you know, I understanding that [00:11:00] a lot of what makes up the nighttime economy is tourism, hospitality, not an easy time for the industry during the pandemic. Uh, probably the hardest hit. And now coming out of it, uh, just trying to attract and retain workers. Um, how much of an issue is this for Vancouver's nighttime economy?
Nate: It's a pretty big issue. It was really bad when the reopening first happened. It was, um, as I put it before, it was like a dog fight out there to get good talent, or even [00:11:30] to get new talent that you knew you'd have to train and spend all the time and money and resources, training people properly. This is kind of a top to bottom thing. So this is everything from our head o head office marketing team to people washing dishes. It was, I don't know where everybody went. I mean, I know a lot of it has to do with, um, with immigration and things like this that couldn't happen. People left on mass at the beginning of the pandemic and haven't come back like left our country. [00:12:00] But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of leveled out a little bit, but unfortunately it's leveled out partly for the reason that most businesses aren't as busy as they were pre pandemic or they've adjusted either their service levels or their hours to be able to reflect the, the staffing that they're able to, to retain mm-hmm.
Nate: . And that's not ideal either. And it's also something that none of us saw coming out of [00:12:30] this pandemic. We were like, oh, it's, you know, it's going to be a heyday. It's going to be the roaring twenties, it's gonna be all these things. And then there's just like, oh, wait, there's this, oh wait, we can't find the appropriate staff. Oh, you know, it's just a thing after thing. It's been really tough. I mean, if there's any kind of, I don't wanna say silver lining, but at least it's not just a Vancouver specific problem. This is an all-over problem.
Bridgitte: Yes, definitely not, but it'll be interesting this summer because this will be the first summer where things are [00:13:00] really back to normal, um, without restrictions, without a lot of the even concern and hesitation. So this might be the litmus test is to see how things have really evened out or, or have they, and where those challenges exist. I think, you know, just getting the youth interested again and working in, in hospitality is, is something that I know a lot of people in the industry are, are trying to do. Um, one of the, um, things that I've heard talked about around the nighttime economy would be [00:13:30] setting up an office of the nighttime economy mm-hmm. , what does that look like? And what are the objectives?
Nate: The objectives are to have a consistent voice with the city and with the province about the nighttime economy. You know, let's start with Vancouver, but then move into the lower mainland. And again, advocating for the, the workers and understanding resident issues and things like this, and being able to communicate that to City Hall properly and bring all of the right people to [00:14:00] the table, but also to do what, say, sport hosting Vancouver has done, which is go out and, and find events or, or build events, you know, um, with, with festivals and, and with things in the, in the creative sector, it's more, we're, we're really motivated to create things ourselves here, but there's no apparatus right now that allows us to do that easily. There's no officer, there's no one really that's [00:14:30] advocating. And there are all of these people that are having the same conversation and all these agencies, destination van, downtown Van, um mm-hmm.
Nate: , independent operators, like Blueprint, um, you know, the, the city, uh, you know, Ken Sim is all about pushing our city forward and making it better, making it world class. So everyone's having these conversations, but it's about, okay guys, let's, like, you know, let's all get together and figure out what this looks like, what's realistic, because then you start talking about things, um, like, [00:15:00] uh, the schedule. What does a Canucks schedule look like? What does this look, you know, you have to plan thoughtfully so that things aren't happening in a vacuum. And so the, the, the things that you're planning, especially when you're talking about mass events, are successful. So
Bridgitte: Great point because, you know, when I think about where other destinations that I, that I travel to or wanna travel to, and, you know, have a thriving nighttime economy, it does take a lot of coordination. So are there cities [00:15:30] that you maybe look to, to say, you know, that would be our, our vision is to try and get to look like the city in mm-hmm. , this country. Are there are a couple favorites that you think, Vancouver, this is what your aspiration should be?
Nate: Yeah, yeah. That's a, that's a great question. Um, I think there are, nobody has it nailed exactly. And, but there are certainly places that have a more vibrant, uh, nightlife culture than we do. Uh, Amsterdam where the first nightmare was, was put in place, and we actually flew him in [00:16:00] a couple of times in the early days to speak with City council and to speak with, um, the DVBIA and do a couple of panels because it was such a, a unique and important thing at the time. So Amsterdam has a very, very good handle on it. There is, um, an event there every, I think it's September called ADE, and it is, uh, it's an electronic music conference, but it's one of the, the biggest in the world and incredibly well organized. And the it would [00:16:30] be, it's like a huge civic thing. Everyone understands that it's going on, even if the music isn't for everybody. So it's really impressive the way they brought the community and the city together there. Um, New York City is, is always a good one. And I've not been to Mexico City, but I hear Mexico City is, is really on top of it as well.
Bridgitte: Yeah. Mexico City's I think an interesting one to mention because, you know, a decade or two ago, it wasn't a safe city and it wasn't a, [00:17:00] you know, there wasn't a coordinated approach and it did much, much larger than Vancouver. But I mean, that's really what you're advocating for is, uh, more coordination, eventful city and public safety to be top of mind and, and make a really welcoming city for all, for families, for young people, for older people, for everybody.
Nate: That's absolutely right. And also we need to make it more attractive for business because it's, it is hard doing business in British Columbia, like, [00:17:30] straight up, and I'm not even necessarily complaining about it, it's just the reality.
Bridgitte: Well, and, and you make a very, very good point, and one that we talk about on this podcast all the time, and particularly in this one sector, and we're out, hospitality and tourism, uh, we're talking about a lot of small and medium, and they have been hit the hardest by the pandemic, and some of them are still recovering, which comes as a surprise to many people because so many other large corporations have come out of the pandemic, maybe better [00:18:00] than before. Mm-hmm. . So very good points, uh, that you make there, Nate, that not only the city of Vancouver, but this jurisdiction, this region needs to make it easier for businesses to operate, particularly small and medium businesses.
Nate: Absolutely. The other thing that's not talked about within that, and I think Blueprint would fall into the medium size business, you know, we have about 600 employees, is that the debt that people have taken on to make it mm-hmm. [00:18:30] , and the fact that they're struggling right now, a lot of the time is because they're servicing the debt they took on while they're trying to manage business in, uh, an economy that your margins are just shrunk to almost nothing if you're in hospitality.
Bridgitte: Yeah. CFIB did a great study on that, and the, the numbers, I can't, uh, quite recall them right now, but it is considerable the debt and just more awareness about that and getting people out to support those, uh, small and medium operators [00:19:00] in hospitality. Super, super important as the recovery of our city.
Nate: Absolutely. You gotta support the locals.
Bridgitte: So we've got a three year roadway, if you will, to, to the big event of FIFA World Cup. Um, what would you say would be your top priorities, you know, over the next few years to really start to ensure a thriving nighttime economy?
Nate: Mm-hmm. The biggest one would probably be to improve Granville Street, to, um, make [00:19:30] some actual physical changes there. The second would be, and that has to be something that we sustain because mm-hmm. Otherwise, and it's happened in so many cities where you have an entertainment district that goes well for maybe a decade, and then it goes away and it becomes like old Vegas, you know, it's just, it's, it's not okay. Um, when we've got all the infrastructure there. And it wasn't that long ago that the entertainment district was created. Um, that would be my number one. I think number two would be general changes [00:20:00] in zoning and what is allowed in certain types of spaces. Um, I'm speaking about, you know, warehouses, things like this. Um, you know, that, I don't know, even outdoor spaces and, and mixed use buildings. Uh, I don't think that we've been innovative there at all. And I think that it's one of those things where when you ask why you can't easily enact change or why, um, a system is set up a certain way, everyone kind of looks at [00:20:30] each other and goes, I don't really know. Well, if that's your answer, then let's change it
Bridgitte: Because, well, it's also a good revenue driver for the city when it had to increase property taxes by nearly 11%. So there's a, there's some benefit there too for, no,
Nate: There's, it's, it's a common sense type of thing. I mean, safety is always the number one priority, but it's for the city and it's a number one priority for any responsible operator, which I like to think that 99% of us are, in this city. So, so again, why can't we [00:21:00] sit down as adults and, you know, put all of the, the past aside, um, in terms of what's been grandfathered in and talk about this constructively and make some change. So that, uh, again, that's important running up to fifa, but it's important just in general. Um, and, and I guess the third, although it falls within the first one to an extent, is public safety. We really need to, um, not only make the public feel safer, but we need to actually [00:21:30] make it safer. We need change. Um, the, it's just, it's just awful what, um, people are living through downtown East side. It is, you know, uh, somebody was saying to me the other day, it, that is the one thing that we have that is, you know, that we're notable for worldwide and, and that's just awful.
Bridgitte: Yeah. Would be nice to, to be able to turn that around and say, notable for making it better for, for people who [00:22:00] live in the downtown east side and for business and residents who are in and around the downtown east side. Nate, I really, really appreciate the conversation and, and look forward to working with you over the next few years to really have a focus on the nighttime economy and just how important it is to the overall economic health of our city. I really appreciate you shining a light on some of these issues.
Nate: Likewise, Bridgitte, thank you so much.