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A podcast about the art and science of making books. Arthur Attwell speaks to book-making leaders about design, production, marketing, distribution, and technology. These are conversations for book lovers and publishing decision makers, whether you’re crafting books at a big company or a boutique publisher.
Hello and welcome to How Books Are Made, a podcast about the art and science of making books. I'm Arthur Attwell.
Arthur:Making a book always involves stepping into someone else's world, and that's one of the best things about it, because a book is always about something. And to make a book well, you have to love what the book is about. Not only that, but you have to love the work of loving what other people do. Whether you're making a book about dinosaurs, or rock music, or economics, that love shows. In the care you bring to the editing, the typography, the paper you choose, or the code you write. Book fanatics like us can see it. It's why we buy books we never read, because each beautiful book is a little monument to knowledge itself. And that's why there are so many interesting people in bookmaking. They are people who love crossing borders and who live for the thrill of making art with other people.
Arthur:No one is a better example of this than my old friend, Andrés Barragán. For nearly 20 years, Andrés Barragán has led Puntoaparte Editores, creating beautiful books of every kind for many of the world's leading brands and organizations, winning multiple awards and publishing its own books too. Before starting at Puntoaparte, Andrés was the lead guitarist for the influential metal band Ultrágeno. He studied literature, industrial engineering, and recently co-founded a literary agency, which we're going to be talking about later. And he's the author of a gorgeous children's book about books, based on a real dog called Rigo.
Arthur:Andrés, it has been too long since we caught up, and I'm so thrilled that you could join me today. Thank you.
Andrés:Thank you for inviting me. I'm thrilled to be here. I've been a follower of your work, and I consider you a good friend.
Arthur:I've been watching some YouTube videos of Ultrágeno and remembering what it was like to have that kind of energy, for me 15, 20 years ago, and reading about how Rolling Stone Magazine listed the band's debut album on its list of 25 great Colombian albums. And then later, its 2002 album, among its 50 great Colombian albums of the 21st century. You've described the band as your first business project. Can you tell me more about what the business of a metal band looks like behind the scenes?
Andrés:Well, as I tell my colleagues and friends and employees, Ultrágeno was my first company, technically, my first entrepreneurial project. And also, it was my MBA. I eventually studied an MBA, enrolled in an MBA, but everything I had to know about business, I learned losing money with Ultrágeno. Everything, it was just a project. It was something that I dreamed about when I was a kid.
Andrés:I grew up listening to the Beatles, Pink Floyd, and then I went on to Black Sabbath. But then when I, in my teenage years, I found out about underground rock, and then I start practicing, and then came about Ultrágeno, which was a hardcore band, actually, not a metal band, but a hardcore band. A distinction should be made there.
Arthur:Right, important, yeah.
Andrés:And we basically just worked on it for several years, but then we understood what it meant to have a cultural project, working, it meant working with a team, with individuals who had huge differences or had discrepancies, but you made it work. And you launched it to the public, sometimes to much joy, but sometimes to much hate. Especially since we were hardcore, that was problematic for some metal fans. And there were politics involved, so you got some scars from it. But you basically learned what it meant to have a dialogue with the public and with certain people who found your work relevant.
Arthur:Right.
Andrés:So that was a huge entrepreneurial project in itself, but it showed me the importance of carrying your passion into your work life. And after that, the band, I mean, we were about to make it, actually, but there was a problem with us, the band broke up, and then I decided, I mean, a day later, that I will launch a publishing company because I wanted to evolve my two passion projects, and books came second after music.
Arthur:Right. Around 2005, you started Puntoaparte, and you said that people thought you were crazy. Now, and I hear, you know, you're saying you decided a day later, that's extraordinary. I mean, if it's hard to make a living in music, it can be just as hard in publishing. Did you know exactly what you wanted to build in, or were you just determined to figure it out as you did it?
Andrés:No. It was quite funny because I was very passionate about it. I said, 'oh my god. I'm gonna make, let's do books. We did music, let's do books. We love this.' So I went to the friendly neighbourly bookshop, and there was a lady there, the bookshop owner, and I said, 'what would you think if I tried to launch a publishing house?' And she said, 'you're crazy.' I mean, she didn't even hesitate. She said, 'you're nuts.' I said, 'okay, okay, that's an opinion.'
Andrés:So I went to another bookshop, and they said exactly the same and hesitated even less. So when I reached the 10th person telling me that I was crazy, I said, 'no. I now have to do it just for the sake of it, just to prove them wrong', because this isn't supposed to be so utopic. But you do have to understand that at that time, 2005, the average number of books read by a Colombian individual was one book a year.
Arthur:Wow.
Andrés:Including textbooks.
Arthur:Wow.
Andrés:So it was terrible. And it was in terrible shape, the market. And that is why they were so hesitant to lead me on that project.
Arthur:Sure. Yeah. Yeah. They would have been afraid for you, just thinking that you were going to make this difficult mistake.
Andrés:Exactly. And my idea was just, find out how to make books. I didn't know much about it. I mean, I read a lot because I studied literature, but definitely had no idea how to make it a business. And there's another story in there, is that, actually, I started studying engineering. I got really tired of it. This is during my hardcore day, so it was engineering by the day and rocking hard at night. So you can imagine that my interest in engineering was very frail. So then I switched to literature. I loved it. I loved every book I read. I read the secondary bibliography in every course, I was a huge nerd, I did very well. But that was when Ultrágeno started to fail. So I did go back a bit to engineering to sort of learn how to put a business together. So by the time Ultrágeno broke down, I had some insight into business. I did go back to engineering and finish the studies, which was crazy. But my thesis was, at some point, something having to do with the publishing market, and it was certainly a disaster. I mean, I knew that, but I went and carried on with it, and tried to find out how to make a living making books.
Arthur:Right. And here we are all these years later, and I wanna talk about some of the books you made because, I wish I could explain in audio just how beautiful your team's books are. And I'm a real design fanatic, with very high standards. These are just so gorgeous, and we'll put some links in the show notes so that people can go and look at your website and some of the books on the web. These are truly gorgeous books.
Andrés:Thank you very much.
Arthur:Your website says that you, the quote: 'turn dull and complex documents into beautiful illustrated and/or infographic publications.' And I've got to say you've really nailed that, the infographics in the books especially. And I was looking at the books and I naturally gravitated to one that's in English, easier for me, and it's called BiodiverCities, where the 'city' is like a city, like an urban city, and Googling around that, I found the World Economics Forum official report on the World Economic Forum website that has the same name, same sort of report, same topic, but different reports. And the forum's version is that same old uninspiring A4, Helvetica font with boxes and tiny fonts, so I just had no desire to read it. It didn't draw me in. And then I downloaded the book that you created for the project for BiodiverCities, and, oh my goodness, it's a completely different experience. It's just stunning. It just draws you right in, the illustrations, infographics. Can you just tell me more about the process involved in going from these dull reports and manuscripts to something like the BiodiverCities book?
Andrés:Thank you for your words regarding that book. It's one of our favourites. So basically, when I started the company, we started making books for brands and for institutions. There wasn't any money to go out and publish our own books, right, so we had to get paid to make books. As the years passed, we found out, or I found out, I discovered that I was a huge fan of infographics. I mean, there was some flashbacks to my early experiences with books, and they all had to do with the joy of finding an infographic. I actually played with infographics. I got a few in my choice, small dolls, and they would walk over the infographic. It was really crazy. So while we were designing some books for 3rd parties, there was particularly one which discussed urbanisation, and it was filled with data, it was like a 400 page long document. And I told them, with my art director then, why don't we try to use infographics to display this? This information is very valuable information, but there's so much of it. And so we said, 'we should try to make it more accessible.' So they agreed, and we said, 'okay, let's not only include infographics. Let's make the whole book an infographic experience.' And we did that. It's called Ecosistemas, Ecosystems. And we actually won a design award for that. So that was life telling us, so that is how we show it. Life telling us: you have to go this way.
Andrés:So we kind of developed that category, infographic tools. Our team was made up basically of designers, administrators, and, you know, people that know how to do data visualisation. And that is what we've been doing ever since, as one of the fields that we work. And there is a huge amount of ideology behind this, because in a country where no one reads, where there is no access to books, we have to make sure that books are exciting and that books capture you and that you offer the best and most visual experience possible. Because, basically, a book is competing against Netflix and against Prime Video, you need to lure them in.
Arthur:Yeah.
Andrés:Yeah. You have to treat a reader with respect. So make sure you put in the best graphics, the best demonstrations, the best data visualisations so you can make sure that the book is read. That is our responsibility. That is how we've assumed it.
Andrés:So my name, for example, in social networks is 'Biblioactivist'. I do believe that books change your life. And what we do with Puntoaparte, regarding infographic books is part of it, certainly.
Arthur:Sure. Absolutely. You know, it does seem to me there's a role in bookmaking that doesn't yet have a name, which is that person who can turn text into images. You know, we've got editors, copy editors and illustrators, but there's this other kind of person. Do you have a name internally for that person that can turn text into images? Or is it just something that's baked into the talents of the people you hire?
Andrés:Oh, basically, we're using the concept of 'information translator', but not translation into other languages, but to images, as you say, or 'Image Dreamer' or something. That sounds so hippie-like. But this is sort of the idea, what we're aiming for. I mean, the biggest challenge I'm doing right now, I mean, right before I got to speak to you, I was trying to turn this very dense information from an environmental institute into storytelling, basically, to capture somebody's imagination. Thankfully, I've been a fan of films and series and all that, and design in general, graphic design. So I have the sensibility to do that, and my team has been trained to do that, to turn very dense information, which is not visual, into a visual language. So that is the heart, the essence of what we do, what we just said.
Arthur:Fantastic. And it must be hard for your clients, before they become your clients, in those early conversations with an organization or institute that you might work for, it must be hard for them to imagine what you're going to be able to do with their plain boring text in terms of infographics and design. And I'm intrigued that, as someone who runs an agency myself with institutions as clients, I know how hard it is to convince someone that you could do something magical with their raw material and that they can go ahead with this big expensive project and trust that you are going to deliver. I suppose by now you have a track record that is easy to see on your site, but especially in the early days, how did you make the case that books like this, infographic books or books that would represent a brand, could really deliver impact for these organizations?
Andrés:No, the real milestone there was to produce the first book, because once we produce the first one, and you just showed it to the people, I mean, they instantly recognize the power of a good infographic, especially, we basically work with scientists, that is our main work now, and scientists, they're so into their data and into their rigour, which is wonderful. That is why I love working with but it is very difficult to imagine and to visualize what that data could convey. So we have to go straight to our past work and say, 'look, this is a paleontology book, which is about fossils, look what we made of it. There were no photographs, certainly, of what was happening centuries ago or millennia ago, so we need to go there for graphic guide, but look at what we can do.' And once they see that, they instantly realize the potential. But, I mean, there's a huge abyss between that and the data. So we need to work with them for several months, trying to sketch some ways of conveying information. And it's very hard work, and it's very slow. But it certainly pays off.
Arthur:Yeah, it must be quite a process. Are we looking at a year to produce a book? Or I guess it varies from project to project?
Andrés:Unfortunately, times are not ideal. It is very hard to get someone to get a year to work on a book. Your guess is correct, that would be the ideal, but we need to do it really fast as well. But it takes, for example, at least 3, 4 months of intense daily work. I mean, discussing the data with the scientists.
Arthur:Sure.
Andrés:Doing sketches, at least 4 months for a 80 page book.
Arthur:Right. And I noticed that the teams can be pretty big as well. I mean, on the BiodiverCities book I was looking at, the team must have been a dozen people on your side, ranging from editors and proofreaders, illustrators, art directors, and so on. So I imagine you need to bring in a lot of people on a project.
Andrés:No, it can be a nightmare actually, because we did one called, it was an illustrated manual for nature tourist guides. In Colombia, they are the people that work in very faraway regions, they haven't had formal education, so ProColombia, part of the government devoted to that, they hired us to to do this. It was an 80 people project.
Arthur:Wow.
Andrés:There were 80 people, including, I mean, they had podcasts and everything, so, suddenly, there was animation, there was people working on the field, editors, translators. It was a nightmare because we had to do it in 6 months as well.
Arthur:Wow. Amazing.
Andrés:But that was the first time some of the tour guides in Colombia, who had very poor connections, who had rarely got to read a book, they had, for the first time in their history as individuals, they were respected and given a book that they really recognized and valued. It was a big book, 300 page book containing everything they did know about Colombia's biodiversity and everything, I think, to do with nature and Colombian scientific wonders.
Arthur:Fantastic. Oh, I must look that up. I noticed that some of the books you can even download the PDFs of, I assume, for instance, like BiodiverCities and some others. Is that quite common, especially for the scientific books where they need to be distributed, or is it usually the case that you can only really see them if you come across the printed edition?
Andrés:No, we're looking for reach here. So definitely, we have printed versions, each time less of them. I mean, the main idea is that people download the PDF so that they can have massive impact.
Arthur:Right. Yeah.
Andrés:Colombia is a very particular country with a very diverse geography, so it's very, there are regions which are very hard to reach, and people there don't have access to books. Though they have shitty mobile phones, they still get connections. You know, you know how that works.
Arthur:Absolutely.
Andrés:Everybody has a WhatsApp, so we have to find ways of getting books through those WhatsApp applications. So one way is just to download the PDFs, but the other is that we also produce a version of the books just for WhatsApp.
Arthur:Wow. Okay.
Andrés:So you have to fragment and break everything down into images with more captions they can share, and that is how you get massive impact.
Arthur:That is a fascinating publishing medium, and it's entirely its own medium, thinking about WhatsApp distribution and breaking a book up like that. That's the first time I've heard of that. Brilliant. Love it.
Andrés:Yes, that's a different language and a different way of thinking of it. And it always comes with commentary because they share it, and they also have the commentary there. It's quite fun.
Arthur:Do you have a favourite book project or a favourite story from one?
Andrés:Oh, I have so many stories. I guess my favourite book is the paleontology project. It's called Hace Tiempo, 'Long Ago', we did it with the Smithsonian Institute and the Humboldt Institute. They coupled for that job, and it was wonderful because they knew they wanted a visual book, but they came on with this, a set of the ugliest photographs of fossils I had ever seen. You couldn't believe it, I mean, there were bad pictures. What they displayed was terrible, the fossils themselves are horrible. That was difficult because by that point, we had done loads of infographics, but not infographics heavily based on illustration, so that took some convincing. That took a lot more time, it took 8 months, that one.
Arthur:Still quite fast. 8 months is not bad, but longer than you would have liked.
Andrés:Yes. We got them, certainly, to put in some extra money for the extra months, fortunately. You should be able to do that within a year, maybe a year and 2 months or something. We had to do it in 8 months. But even then, that was one of the projects where we said, 'okay, we have time for this one. Let's go all out on that.' And what happened was that, it was paleontology, so we had, for example, the Megalodon, the huge shark, and Titanoboa, the huge snake. Those all happen in Colombia because, I mean, paleontology in Colombia, you need to picture that, and what happened was that we launched it. We won a Colombian award, but also a Latin American design award for that. But what's most important is that there was actually this huge idea of taking it to schools all over Colombia.
Arthur:Oh, wow.
Andrés:So the Smithsonian developed, sort of, workshops, and they took it all over the country, and you wouldn't believe the reactions of the children who've never had access to a huge illustrated book. I mean, this is not coffee table, but this was really big.
Arthur:Yeah.
Andrés:And the first time they see that, and they see that they're talking about Colombian nature, it's talking about our ecosystems and the Tikanowa, I mean, which is like a magical, almost mythological being. So, it was thrilling to see people from the regions, peasants, just going crazy with science. That was really rewarding, and that reminded us of why we do things; we just want to move people with our books and change them and make their lives better as books made my life better.
Arthur:Oh, that's exciting. Wonderful. Is that book available as a PDF?
Andrés:Yes, it is.
Arthur:Great. Well, we'll find a link to that and put that in the show notes too. That's a wonderful one. Now, very recently, you've started something new, which is exciting coming from someone like you. The Book Hunter's Agency, which as I understand it, goes looking for 'literary works with audio visual potential.' So I see some crossover, some books, movies, TV crossover there. Can you tell me more about that?
Andrés:Yeah. There's many notes to tell there. What happened was, and this is a bit of a long story, but I guess it could be useful for editors or publishers, so we developed this model, which we made for our graphic books for institutions and institutes and companies, right? But there comes a point where you say, where every editor says, 'no, I wanna publish my own books', because they bought the books, the material, and the rights to those books. I mean, I own none of that. They paid me for that. So I said, 'no, I'm going to publish my own books.' And once you try to publish your own books, you realize that you actually want to try to write some of them to see if you have the potential. I believe that most book publishers are frustrated writers.
Arthur:Right.
Andrés:So I gave that a try, and it turns out, you know, I wasn't that bad. And so we tried to do a graphic novel, I had one of my associates draw it and picture it, and it was almost finished. And then I said, 'my God. This is crap. This is actually, I have no idea how to tell a story.' I mean, in narrative terms. So I started studying, I mean, when the pandemic came, I enrolled in an MA workshop for screenwriters, and I learned about this world, I mean, the world of screenwriters. I'm still going at it. I'm not that good yet, but I discovered that, I mean, the potential, what I'm gonna say, this is so stupid, I mean, everybody knows about it, but the potential of books in the individual industry is phenomenal, especially in recent years.
Arthur:Right.
Andrés:And what has happened in Colombia concretely is that there's this huge network of companies, production companies, and, for example, Netflix and Prime are very strong here, they actually need material, and they're tired of looking at material from normal screenwriters. So they have turned to books because books offer curated content in some way.
Arthur:Yeah.
Andrés:They offer traction if they have been selling well, but that even is no longer necessary. And they offer clarity. So, you know who owns the rights, who's responsible for this. So with a friend of mine who's an actual screenwriter, we funded this agency, and we've actually started selling books. First, we started with our own stuff, but now we're recording plays and selling them. And we're gonna, I'm about 10 days away from launch for a series with the help of one of the government grants we got. So, that is basically just response to my deep need to tell stories in another medium.
Arthur:Right. Yeah.
Andrés:Or even tell them in books and just think of them in other languages, in other platforms, because in the end, what really feels useful now is that as an editor, you can produce content through books that end up clearly in a platform, for example, Netflix.
Arthur:Right. Absolutely.
Andrés:There was an interview I heard recently, and this was a huge insight for me, so there was this comic book guy, a writer, and he was explaining how comic books work. And he said, 'the only real reason to have comic publishing company nowadays is not to sell the comics themselves, but to sell the rights to those projects and to make them into series or movies. That is the only reason to have a company.'
Arthur:Amazing. Yeah.
Andrés:So can you imagine that? I mean, we first met in 2009. It wasn't 19th century, but it's in, yeah, I mean, there's a huge difference. Can you imagine that? You can actually make a series that everybody watches on Netflix. That is incredible.
Arthur:It is extraordinary. We would never have imagined it. It's amazing. And I imagine there are a lot of writers who dream of having their books turned into TV or movies, but just have no idea where they would begin, who aren't screenwriters, and an agency like that just offers that, bridging that gap. I imagine that the writers must be very keen to work with you.
Andrés:Yes, they are. I mean, writers in Colombia, where it's so hard to do it, don't have that notion of, maybe this could turn into a movie someday. They don't think about that. They don't think that way. Just lucky if you publish, you're just lucky if you sell 2000 books. That is a best-seller here. I mean, your vision does not go beyond that, but suddenly you have this potential. You say, 'okay, this book can actually become a project.' And what's, this sounds horrible, but what's really weird about it is that it doesn't even have to be a good book because they advertize it, and they put some screenwriters to make it really cool, whatever that definition of cool is.
Arthur:Sure. Absolutely.
Andrés:So you actually have to produce, you have to make them, I mean, this is the time to launch a book, this is the time to write, and this is something that I have never seen before, and that I'm very grateful for.
Arthur:Yeah. That's incredibly exciting. I'm also fascinated by the dynamic introduced by the fact that the big content streamers like Netflix, because of their model that is subscription based, not advertising based, like the old cable companies, they can look to grow their business internationally in a way that the old American cable companies, British TV companies, they need to focus on their local markets because that's where they're selling advertising. Netflix has no reason to focus on the US like a cable company did. And so, inevitably they're going to be looking for more and more content and inspiration and production capacity in other countries, countries where enormous amount of talent, like in Colombia and South Africa, exists, but hasn't really been, really used yet. So I just think it's really exciting. I think that I'm looking forward to seeing so much more content on my Netflix stream that is coming originally from places like Colombia and South Africa.
Andrés:Oh, and you wouldn't believe what a revolution this has caused in the Colombian or the regional industry because we have now huge productions coming over here. I mean, somebody I know actually coached Tom Cruise in one of his movies and then Will Smith, and it was really weird because those productions are coming to Colombia, and the level of professionalisation that carries with it and the impact it has on people who can now dream of somehow reaching that, which seemed impossible. I mean, that is wonderful, and that has happened because of the streaming services. I mean, that work is much the way you said, they need global stuff. They need to, they can go anywhere, and they can have productions anywhere, and that is really changing the way people think about art and making and telling stories and thinking about books, and it is truly a revolution.
Arthur:Oh, it's exciting. As we wrap up, I do want to check in on Biblioperrito, the book puppy. We'll put a link in the show notes to your children's book. Are you getting time to write more for children?
Andrés:Yeah. As I mentioned, since I'm a biblio-activist, I'm really obsessed with making books, besides reading books. So, this is a cute story, so during the pandemic, a friend of mine rescued a dog that had been really bad off. I mean, he was really thin. We don't know where he came from, but, basically, he rescued the dog, and he said, 'I cannot keep him. Are you interested?' I said, my wife, and me said, right away, 'let's do it.'
Arthur:Wow.
Andrés:So we took him home. And one day, he's a beautiful dog, we call him Rigo because, that's the name, Rigoberto is the name of one of our cycling heroes.
Arthur:Oh, lovely.
Andrés:Rigoberto fell asleep, but before he fell asleep, he knocked over some of the 3000 books we own. We have nothing but books here, so no fancy cars, no social clubs, just books. So he went on to sleep, and he sort of made a strange movement, so he toppled some books on, how do you say that, the books fell, and he fell asleep over the books.
Arthur:Lovely.
Andrés:So we said, oh, that's a cute picture. And then we just started thinking about it. We took the photograph and said, 'what if there was a character, just a dog, who loved books, a puppy that loved reading? Wouldn't that be a thrill for children? Wouldn't that be a new experience, a new way to experience books through the eyes of a dog? And what if we made workshops, where the dog went, and where they rescued the dog', and we went crazy with it. It took a few years of thought, of careful thought to see, because I'm a perfectionist, which means I'm very insecure about my projects, so I need to think about them a lot, so 2 years later, we launched the first book called Biblioperrito, 'book doggy' would be the translation. And it's just a dog who loves books, and it's been wonderful. And as you can imagine, I'm already picturing the animated series about Biblioperrito, a show about Biblioperrito, everything that goes with it, just to show you the power of books, and the power of, to be just getting an idea, thinking it through, and testing it, and it actually will bring how to iterate quite a bit with the contents.
Arthur:Right. Yeah.
Andrés:I hope I get to see the animated series. There are some ideas about it. This is just another way of making books that change people's lives because I guess that maybe kids who are not interested in reading, like, become suddenly interested if they find out that there's a dog running around. I think the concept of that involves a dog, so that is just another attempt of mine of trying to make people read.
Arthur:Wonderful. Well, your work is an inspiration. It's beautiful. It's meaningful. It's good for the world.
Arthur:Andrés, it's been such a pleasure catching up, hearing these stories. I will be following along very closely to see what happens next in your journeys. Thank you so much again for sharing your stories with me.
Andrés:Thank you for your kind invitation. I love everything you do. I love this podcast. I'm a follower of your work, I love BookDash, I love Electric Book Works. I love everything you do. Ever since I met you in London, I know what a great person you are, what a great father you are, but, especially what a great professional you are. So I'm proud of calling you a friend. I'm proud of being on your podcast.
Arthur:Thank you. That's very kind. Let's book again soon.
Arthur:This episode was edited by Helen le Roux and researched by Klara Skinner. How Books Are Made is supported by Electric Book Works, where we develop and design books for organizations around the world. You can find us online at electricbookworks.com.