What it's like being an Engineer in the Gaming Industry?

Talking to the talented engineer copsplayer, and hostess, Giselle about her experience growing up in the US, as a Black cosplayer, and being a professional engineer in the gaming industry -phew- she had a lot to say and it's all good stuff!

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What is Gaming For The Culture?

We talk to the people that make the gaming industry happen, past & present. From casual players to industry CEOs. Gaming for the Culture is for the people by the people. Gaming mobile to VR!

Junae (00:00.73)
Welcome to Gaming for the Culture. I am your hostess with the mostest. I'm Junae, and today we have another special guest. We are going to learn all about her and Giselle if you don't mind introducing yourself.

Giselle (00:17.358)
Hi, I'm Giselle. I'm happy to be here. I am a engineering content creator and I love to post content that is cosplay, STEM related. So I'm excited to be here to talk about gaming and all the good stuff.

Junae (00:32.346)
That is really interesting because this is my first cosplay engineer combo. And you like to make cosplay that is like has some type of engineering-like elements or like STEM elements to or a STEAM, STEM or STEAM, probably STEAM, STEAM makes sense.

Giselle (00:48.27)
Yeah, yeah, it's more STEAM, I guess, related. I like to do more like cultural twists on my cosplay. So like trying to like have my natural hair out or different more ethnic related styles versus what the character would have traditionally or just like adding sewing patches or something on there that's like a little bit more, you know, zesty, past the traditional character design for me. So, yeah.

Junae (01:12.826)
I love that. I think that's what cosplay is all about. It's all about taking this character that someone made, right? And then saying like, if I would have made this character, I could do this. It's like your own fanfic, right? It's like you're wearing your own fanfic. And I love any cosplay that can incorporate natural hair because it's all about making you comfortable with the hair that you have. A long time ago, when, you know, the four nations lived in harmony, I was...

a natural hair gamer. And that's how I branded myself because when I left college, I wanted to go into news, like broadcast journalism. And my hair was like a huge factor. Like they were like, "ummm no, like you need to fix your hair". And I didn't want to, I wanted, I decided to go natural and I wanted to keep it that way. So when I started streaming, I branded myself as the natural hair gamer. And so I would review like products and video games. And I had like this,

this show that did both. And so I'm always a huge fan of natural hair, like, you know, inclusion and implementations.

Giselle (02:19.406)
That's awesome. Yeah, I, the cosplay space, especially when I entered it, was very, I would like to say, still has its problems with accepting any variation on characters. But I think seeing the immersion of a bunch of people of color who were doing their own spins, because at the end of the day, you are dressing up, these characters are not real, So to me, it's like you are given the creative liberty to do what you will with them. And I think it's really important, because it was so important for me to see someone who looked like me

cosplaying characters that didn't look like me and they were like, "this is okay", you know, "this is a form of self -expression". And I think for me, it's a way to empower the younger generation to know that like, you can express yourself and participate in these things without feeling the need to conform to any societal standard. And like to talk about what you're saying, like, growing up, it was the biggest thing of, you know, my parents really had to, we had to conform to look a certain way because people did have problems with how their hair was presented. And I feel like

our generation has the opportunity to push that envelope a little further and be like, "no, I'm going to wear the hairstyle I want to wear. It doesn't really speak to my professionalism or ability to do anything". So I genuinely do like pushing the envelope there despite the pushback that people may have on that. I think it's important to stand up for those types of things because again, these aren't real characters. So to me, it's like we should just have fun with it. This should be something that is, you know, know.

Junae (03:44.954)
.

Giselle (03:46.798)
creative. So.

Junae (03:48.89)
I love that. They're not real. They're not real. So it's okay if we're like, "hey, this is what I would look like if I was that character because once again, they're not real." Yeah, that is another conversation, right? We could have another podcast episode about that, about the cosplay community. I have cosplayed a little bit, so I've never fully gotten into the community, but being a Black woman in any space is being a...

Giselle (03:50.638)
Yeah, they're not real.

Junae (04:18.362)
a Black woman. And so I know some of like the horrors and the unfortunate stuff that goes on. But I also know that there is a great community that supports you and you know that you can go to. And they love seeing those renditions because we love to see ourselves, right? We play video games because we want to be that hero or the villain. We want to be whoever without like real world consequences. And so it's always going to be a hit, you know, to

to show up as your like authentic self in a fandom that you really like. So I have a question.

Giselle (04:58.542)
Yeah, for sure.

Junae (05:05.114)
I don't want to ask it, but here we go. You, as a professional cosplaying engineer who knows the in and outs and has been doing this, how long have you been cosplaying?

Giselle (05:05.198)
I'm going to go.

Giselle (05:18.222)
Yeah, a couple years now, I'd say going on four years. Yeah.

Junae (05:21.274)
four years, that's a long time. That's a lot of outfits, first of all. That's a lot of outfits and that's a long time. So as we were just talking about showing up as yourself in a fandom and people loving the representation, how is it different when characters who aren't Black maybe show up as someone from like Riley from The Boondocks? Is that still considered representation or is that considered whitewashing?

Giselle (05:23.406)
Truly.

Giselle (05:49.55)
Hmm, that's a really good question. I feel like I really do care about how a character is potentially depicted. I think it's important that if you are trying to do representation right, I would hope that you are consulting people who are from that culture and you are trying in the best way possible to represent a character for who they are. I think it's definitely interesting when we get the quote unquote stereotypical.

characteristics of a Black person instead of what I would think is a well -written character. But that's just my opinion on different implementations. I guess it depends on what character we are talking about. I think there are examples in media where it's done well. I think there's examples in media where you can clearly tell that it is for the sake of just having a Black character there. But I'm also curious on what do you think about...

Like what are some examples, I guess, of characters that you feel like are done well versus not?

Junae (06:50.17)
Like with people cosplaying or just like written like originally by the show.

Giselle (06:55.214)
Originally by the show, I feel like.

Junae (06:58.178)
Characters that are done well. That's a good one. I'm the one asking questions though Characters that are done well. I really enjoyed, I believe her name is Naomi from Metallic Rogue. I really like her and I know, spoiler alert, I'm gonna give you like 10 seconds to fast forward if you don't wanna know, but.

Giselle (07:03.79)
Hahaha!

Giselle (07:14.542)
Mmm, that's good.

Giselle (07:21.198)
Ha ha.

Junae (07:24.346)
Even though I think she's like a robot or a being, I think she's still portrayed like as a Black woman. And I really like that because it's not about her being Black. She's just in the story and pushing the story along and she's there and she's smart and she's techie and she does all these cool things. I don't know if you've seen Metallic Rogue, but. Okay, girl, sorry. Sorry.

Giselle (07:27.086)
Mm -hmm.

Giselle (07:43.118)
I know the character, but I have not seen it. So I know of it. Yeah. No, no, that's good. That's good. Yeah.

Junae (07:51.066)
Yeah, so, you know, just something like that. Like, I think she's written well, and it has nothing really to do about like her blackness or somebody like Brock from Pokemon, who I didn't know he was Black because Pokemon does dark skin people different, right? Pokemon does like Black people differently. And then he started getting like lighter and lighter. And he was just a pervert, assuming just because he was a boy. I'm just assuming that. I think.

Giselle (08:13.966)
Right. I guess, yeah.

Junae (08:20.762)
Like that really is helpful, you know, and I do like Riley and Huey from the Boondocks because like the show is satire and it's showing like two ends of the extremes and how you can grow up in the same household and be like completely different. I think they're written well when people understand the satire. When people don't understand the satire, I'm like, you know, like I haven't watched the new Good Times because I just don't.

Giselle (08:43.758)
Very true, very true.

Junae (08:50.234)
think that's what I want to be a witness to. I know that there are spaces to do Black TV shows, Black characters, like you do Family Guy, right? Because I feel like maybe that was like, can we just have a Black family that's really funny? Yeah, but once again, it's funny because it's rooted in the stereotype, right? The PJs is funny, but they were where they were, but it wasn't so, it was about like,

Giselle (09:13.902)
right.

Junae (09:20.154)
the experience of anybody who's actually grown up in like that neighborhood in those times that somebody could relate to, you know what I mean? And then they were also Black. So then there was like that cultural, like inside jokes, little things, you know, that would happen. And, you know, I don't watch Family Guy anymore because one day I was watching it and it wasn't very settling. And I was like, I get it.

This show is for white people who don't think they're racist because you're making fun of everybody and you think that like it's okay because you can be that person who's like, I don't discriminate. I hate everybody. And it's like, that's weird. Like, you know, so did that satisfy your answer? Did I?

Giselle (10:04.014)
It is. Yeah. Yeah, no, yeah. No, that was perfect. Like, I think the adult cartoon, like that type of scene definitely, I think is like number one offender when it comes to trying to be like, well, you know, like you said, we're making fun of everyone. So it's not personal because we're making fun of everyone. But I feel like the inability to have a show where it's just a Black family. And I do appreciate the cultural aspects that they touch on, but.

It's, it's like you said, very heavily rooted in satire. And I think a lot of people outside of those groups don't understand that it's satire. And so they just take it at face value and they're like, this is what this is. This is how Black people act. This is what this like, and it becomes this, it perpetuates the stereotype, which I do understand that, you know, we need, you know, shows for the culture for us to understand and like, relate to, but I do. And sorry for the people who aren't anime fans. I genuinely.

I think think is one of the better examples that I have that Bleach, Tite Kubo, the creator of Bleach, I very much commend him for because growing up seeing that show, I think it was one of the few times I saw black Black portrayed in a way where there was so much diversity that you almost didn't like, you weren't like, this is a token black Black You were just like, there are black Black in this universe and it's fine and it's accepted and they're doing their own thing and they still had their own cultural elements. But you could tell that.

It was done with such care that the characters are some of the most beloved characters I think that people have in the anime world where if you pan over to other anime, how we're depicted, how we're drawn is like the stereotypical big lips, the weird different skin tones where we can't have more quote unquote attractive, conventionally attractive looks. And I think seeing that growing up, I was like, so it can be done. It can be done in a way that does touch on.

people who are Black exist in all spaces. And I just, I hadn't seen a lot of that growing up. I had only seen kind of like what you were saying, like the lighter and lighter skin tones through the years or the weird Black animation that they have of lips and hair even. And I was like, why are we doing that? You know, what's going on there? Why is it that no one is consulting a Black person on these drawings? You know? So I get that completely. I understand.

Junae (12:27.162)
I have to say this because I'm not gonna make it obvious where it came from, but when she listens to this, she's gonna know I said something. So one, I never watched Bleach. So like, I didn't see that Black character until I really started getting into anime spaces and people were like, top best, like, you know, Black characters and things like that. And so I used to, I watched Naruto and like, you know, the...

Giselle (12:36.366)
Hehehe.

Junae (12:54.106)
Village in the Clouds, like Hidden in the Clouds. I didn't know they were Black, once again, right? They were kind of like really, really light. And I think my observance of that was watching like Rock Lock in My Hero, right, of seeing that. And you know, it's interesting that you say like, why didn't these people like consult like a Black person or, you know, somebody who is just culturally sensitive if you don't have any like Black people. And I think,

it's because, especially back then when we just had like crumbs, we wanted anything. I had a friend tell me that she was speaking to somebody about anime and he was like, yeah, the creator of Dragon Ball Z is Black.

Giselle (13:42.734)
That's a new one, I haven't heard that one before. Okay. No, yeah, what?

Junae (13:47.834)
No stop because what? And, and, and so I have a couple of questions. If he is Black, why was Dragon Ball Z only centered around Mr. Satan and Mr. or why, why, why the only representative, representatives for his ethnicity was, Mr. Popo and Mr. Satan, right?

Giselle (13:54.925)
Yeah!

Giselle (14:11.022)
Because I have a bone to pick with Mr. Popo. I don't even want to get into that. But you know, like, what are we talking about? Yeah. Yeah.

Junae (14:15.578)
because otherwise if he was supposed to be what he was supposed to be, they wouldn't have like redrawn him and stuff like later. Like if, if, if we were really being like, "you know, just joking" or like, you know, if it was like, "no, like he's, he's a very specific". so, you know, I think that is another thing of, you know, you, you said you watch Bleach and you're like, wow. And I didn't really have that until later because.

I was also in the suburbs and I was like, you know, I guess I was really grateful because everybody in my household is Black and they were dark or, you know, or some type of thing. So it's like, I didn't feel too out of place, like all day. I was kind of like, whatever, like, I'm just going to like go home and, you know, everything will like be as it's supposed to be. I have noticed that even when Black people are drawing or.

creating pieces of their favorite anime. It is that stereotypical like Goku with the Jordans and like a cup of lean and then it's like, why don't you support my Black art? And it's like, well, if you made an authentic character who was kind of just Black to be Black, like not even like, my grandmama got diabetes and I got to save her foot. Like we've seen it. We've seen it.

Giselle (15:18.958)
Mmm, yeah.

Junae (15:36.026)
We don't want to do that anymore. You know, like if you just make a Black character and if you want your art to be Jordans and lean, you can do that. Nobody's taking that from you. Nobody's taking your art supplies like do as you wish, you know. But I do love the outpouring of Black creatives making Black characters that we can, you know, like a gush over and have like.

discussion about. So...

Giselle (16:07.47)
I feel it. I feel it. I think like I see this time and time again, the cosplay space where I wish people understood that all flavors of Black people existed and that the only like we don't have to be restricted to portraying ourselves a certain way. Again, like you said, I'm in full support of like you want to do the Jordans and you want to have the lean cup like, okay, you know, like that's your artistic choice. But also I think sometimes it kind of plays into what we were saying earlier of the most.

people outside of those groups don't really understand that that is kind of a personal choice. And that's not the only thing that represents Black people. And I feel like it would just be nice to have a more casual character show up. And it's like not all about them being Black. They're just there and it's fine. And it's not a token Black person. It's just I'm here. And I think that's important because that's what real life is like. I would hope that not every

Black person is a token in any space that they're in. Like I just, I hope that they are able to exist and live their life without feeling like they have to. And we were kind of talking about this before, but like feeling like they have to be the educator and activist consistently all the time that they can just exist as a complex human being and not have that be an issue. But to each their own, like if that's your art, express it. But I do wish that there was just more casual representations of us and, and whatnot. But I know we are.

slowly getting those crumbs, I hope that people do push back more on the what is an acceptable character in media, but I do appreciate that people are pushing the bounds of that a little bit, you know? And we wouldn't have to do, I don't know if you did this growing up, but like claiming, like I think you talked about it, like claiming characters that are not necessarily Black, but you feel like they have that energy just because there's that lack of representation there would be lovely, you know? But I understand how it is, but I will take progress.

Junae (18:03.642)
Yes, we don't love progress, but we like it, right? If you like it, I love it. We don't love progress. We like it because we get crumbs, but we're trying to have like a whole meal. Give us a snack at least, an appetizer, something. So yeah, I love how that wasn't gaming related at all, but like literally just take it and transplant it into gaming because it's like the same thing. Like Uncharted just announced a new

Giselle (18:18.19)
Yeah, give us something. Something.

Giselle (18:25.422)
I know.

Junae (18:33.594)
game and like Uncharted is my series and then I met Nolan North at Comic Con and he like took a picture and we had like this little banter because he was like I'm unemployed right now and then they release Uncharted and I'm like do you want to fight because like how could you like you know we're all here struggling you know and so I have like some clip of that and so Nadine and Uncharted was like really

Giselle (18:36.75)
Okay, okay.

Whoa!

Giselle (18:49.55)
Were you lying?

Junae (19:01.914)
nice for that, right? Because like, she was just Black and there and then the only Black person and then like in a job like that, that's probably a thing, right? Like being the only Black person a part of like this governmental, you know, jewel thief Indiana Jones thing going on. And that was just real. And so like, I, I appreciate.

that much like from her, like we're starting to even show up in video games. I know we've been showing up as the protagonist a lot and that makes people like very upset. But like, you know, I, I don't know, give the people to be something to be mad about because they're going to be mad at something, right? Cause then first like, you know, she's not sexy enough. Now she's Black. Now she, you know what I mean? Like just, it's like nitpick and nitpick and nitpick and, and.

Giselle (19:57.23)
Yeah. Mm hmm.

Junae (19:57.626)
Anywho, so how long have you been in the gaming industry?

Giselle (20:04.462)
Yeah, I would say I'm fairly new to the gaming industry. I was working already when I was in university and luckily I was able to transition into a more XR VR position. I would say it's been about two and a half years. And I would still say gaming adjacent. Most of my work is VR XR related, but you know, when you're putting on a headset and you're launching yourself into a simulation, you get heavily into what the definition of a game is, but.

Yeah, about two and a half years of doing work around the gaming industry.

Junae (20:37.722)
So give us a definition of AR and XR for the people.

Giselle (20:42.702)
Yeah, for sure. I use those terms a lot for what I do, but I think a lot of people are, I guess also the other name for it now because of the Apple vision probe being out of spatial computing. Have some thoughts about that, but XR in general is, you know, a combination of AR and VR. AR is augmented reality. So augmented reality is basically having a headset or glasses on where you can still see the real world and it's kind of portraying or projecting things.

that are mixed with your reality and then virtual reality is transporting you out of your normal space into a virtual world or virtual environment. And XR is kind of working on both of those things. So I have the privilege of working on both where I get to do some mixed reality work, but also mostly VR work. And my main engine for that is Unity and all those toolboxes and whatnot. But yeah, that's kind of around what I do.

Junae (21:39.962)
So Pokemon Go is augmented reality. And when you put on a headset, it's VR, just to give some examples. I never did XR and VR. So, you know, apparently we might get closer to everybody being able to experience that. So why do you have thoughts or what are your thoughts on the what? What do you what did you say Apple Vision calls it?

Giselle (22:05.038)
Yeah, so Apple vision pro came out about a couple months ago and it is one of the first headsets that is more augmented reality, meaning like you walk around and there's things that are being projected onto your world. But they do not like to use the term augmented reality. They like to use the term spatial computing. And I feel like it's fine. I think it's just a bunch of like fancy buzzwords that people want to use. But I feel like we already have a term for that. So it was very interesting.

I guess choice, but I think it's a good, as someone who also has a background in marketing, I think it's smart for Apple to do their own thing and like think that they're in their own lane for what they're doing. But from a developmental perspective, it's augmented reality stuff. But I do think it's cool that they're pushing the envelope there, but I definitely wonder what the logistics are behind saying spatial computing versus AR, because I feel like people don't, they're not as comfortable with those terms unless you're in the space. So adding another one just seems.

excessive, but maybe they mean something else.

Junae (23:11.642)
It could be a marketing thing to be like spatial.

Giselle (23:15.822)
It's all different and dystopian and yeah.

Junae (23:17.018)
that type of thing where we're like "chai tea". We're saying the same thing.

Giselle (23:25.102)
Exactly. I guess I guess it is a marketing- It sounds exotic and different.

Junae (23:29.658)
studies about VR and AR and the dangers, the pros and cons. And it's like, "Ha! there's no bad article with" what did you call it? "Spatial," spatial computing. So, yeah, no, they're just using fancy words. That don't mean anything. Yeah, that doesn't mean spatial computing.

Giselle (23:37.102)
Very true, yeah.

Giselle (23:42.894)
spatial computing.

Yeah.

Right. Sure.

Yeah, because I feel like spatial computing probably already existed in the means of generational terms, where there probably are computers that are doing calculations for city planning and stuff. That's where I go to, if I think of that. You know, Apple's kind of king with the idea of marketing and turning things into something that's new and shiny. So I guess I can't knock them for trying something new.

Junae (24:20.314)
Yeah. Well, less power to them. I was going to say more, but we really need companies that are in the best interest of, you know, the people. So I was having a small conversation today with my, with my small, small knowledge that I have, my little bit of knowledge that I have. And it was a tweet where someone said, you know,

Giselle (24:24.014)
Yeah.

Junae (24:46.682)
"how come Nintendo continues to like dog walk the rest of these consoles, right? And then someone said, because Nintendo understood the value of keeping people in the industry around and like employed, and they're really not trying to participate in this like a console war or like keep up with the best graphics and things like that, right? Because I don't.

I mean, I think my Switch might be able to do like 4K, but a lot of the games that we play aren't there. Like they do have like Overwatch and things like that, which I don't recommend people playing Overwatch and like Call of Duty and like NBA 2K. I don't recommend you playing those on your Switch. It's gonna get hot very fast. I don't think you should do that, you know, but what do you think about, not necessarily console, well, I mean, you could tell me what you think about console wars because you know, I think,

Giselle (25:22.094)
Eheheheh

Giselle (25:26.958)
Yeah. Yeah.

Junae (25:40.41)
people just like to be divided and they're always gonna pick like North side, South side, like they're always gonna pick something. But what do you think has being in marketing, you know, being, you know, in STEAM, in like level design, all of that stuff, what do you think between the competition or the existing of like all of these consoles at the same time and why some are doing a bit better than others?

Giselle (26:08.302)
Yeah, I think the Nintendo points are really good one. Nintendo reminds me of somebody who's like gone through a personal journey and is secure in who they are. I think Nintendo is very good at understanding what they are good at, working and polishing on their own titles, kind of like being in the corner and working on their own art. Like I genuinely think it kind of broke my heart because I grew up with Xbox. My dad worked for Microsoft. I grew up with Xbox and I feel like I got to see the rise and fall of Xbox doing

a lot of cutting edge things when I was younger, but I think they got very caught up in trying to participate in this console war and trying to kind of change their vision several times over. And I understand that it's a company and like you're trying to maximize what you're doing, but I do think along the way we kind of lost the plot of like just staying true to what your company may be good at. Like one thing that I always talk about is I think the Kinect when I was growing up, I don't know if people know, the Kinect

was a little console you could add on top of your Xbox that was hands -free. So basically, think Wii, but without the remote, it could fully track you. I think that's something that came out too early, that's something that I believe a lot of people would have loved to see, but because they were trying to keep up with the new releases for PS and everything, it got lost in the mix and completely died out because...

it just wasn't something that was hitting as hard as they thought it would. And I feel like Nintendo, if they had come out with something like that, they would have held onto it, honed it, cultivated it, and kind of grew their baby. And I feel like that's what Nintendo has always done. Like, I think it's the same reason that everybody holds onto their DS. Like, I still have my 3DS, I still open it and use it. And I think Nintendo loves to make very polished products consistently time and time again. And they don't buy in to this idea of needing to,

try something and throw it away. When they invest in a product, when they invest in a game, when they invest in a console, they try their best to keep it out. It's not always true. I feel like they have had their times where it's not been a smashing hit, but I think the way they choose to pivot and the way they choose to invest is just in such a different way. Whereas I feel like you can name the amount of times other consoles have kind of switched up or tried to throw away certain services that...

Giselle (28:27.95)
people genuinely loved. And I think the reason Nintendo is always more consistent is they really care about their work base, their IP, their consoles. Arguably, their user base, I don't know, they're doing their own thing, but I feel like it's just, you can see the consistency and you can see the inconsistency. And I feel like that's why Nintendo kind of stands above the rest most times, even if it's not everybody's thing. Like you said, even if it's not the best graphics, even if it's not the best of the best, they're like, well, we did what we wanted to do here.

And I genuinely feel that from them. I guess that also speaks to my bias, but I didn't really grow up that much on PS either, but I feel like I always heard things that were different on the PS side as well. And it just felt like a war where it was a one -up war rather than us honing what we have.

Junae (29:18.49)
Wow. Nintendo spokesperson, everybody, Giselle. No, that was such a good answer. And I think you have a lot of things in there to back that up. Because at the end of the day, these are companies, and we don't want to try to personify somebody who, you know, they are concerned about making money. But I think in a different way of where they take pride in what they're doing, right? And I can't believe we're at a

where we're explaining what a Kinect is, I still have mine. I still have mine. Because like, how would I play Just Dance? I think it's so useful. You know what I mean? Like, because they took the Kinect and even though there was like that Wiimote and things like that first, but they took the Kinect and like now, you know, the Nintendo Switch had like a, they redid their fitness and so now they have like a band and then you put the remote.

Giselle (29:49.582)
I know I like I still have mine. I still have mine

Junae (30:14.842)
I don't know if that would have fully existed the way it does without the Kinect. Like I know, you know, even when PlayStation had their camera, because they still have a camera and you know, you could use that camera, like as long as you could like plug it in, you could use whatever PlayStation camera that you have. And so I agree with you. The Kinect is a smart idea. I think it could still really work. I think, you know, even...

there should have been more of a boom for the connect after the pandemic. They should have like, tried to like, you know, because people are like, I'm at home. I'm trying to stay active. I'm trying to do this. And that was like the perfect time to be like, I'm putting on my Kinect We're all doing just dance, you know? And it's also a party thing. I literally put on just dance for my birthday party that I had because it makes sense. Like, Hey, we're all going to play video games today. We're going to play just dance and like some, some other things. And so, yeah, I.

Giselle (30:44.91)
Yeah.

Junae (31:08.666)
I think same thing with Apple. Everything is a one -up, right? Apple, Android, Samsung, Google, like everybody. It's a one -up and it's not like, hey, we really like this thing that we did because it seems like I think Nintendo can kind of play on the emotions if they wanted to of people and say like, hey, we really like the customer and we really, you know, we just want to design things to make you guys happy because they're invested in what they do and then they continue to like push that forward.

because I guess the Switch is seven years old. That.

Giselle (31:42.446)
Yeah, which my god that speaks to my age already seven years is crazy. Whoa

Junae (31:45.722)
No, when I saw it I said, that's not true. I had to go check. I said, that's not true. And then this week I also learned that the PJs ran the same time as Futurama.

Giselle (31:56.334)
Wow guys, this is this is making me feel

Junae (31:58.106)
that doesn't compute, does not compute, does not compute. Like, cause in the PJs, they have a milk carton that says Philip J. Fry missing. And so I didn't know, I would have never had like put it together. But yeah, and I think, you know, the companies, especially with how everybody loves to be divided over Xbox, PlayStation, Switch.

Giselle (32:10.222)
clever.

Junae (32:24.25)
I think if the company stayed and invested with what they want to, people would have still ride for them. The way that I understood Xbox and PlayStation when I was getting into gaming is that Xbox is for multiplayer and PlayStation is for solo play. So like Xbox has like, you know, you could do these things with PlayStation too, but that PlayStation Online and stuff like that didn't really get.

introduced until later. So to me, Xbox was like that multiplayer item. So for them to have something like the Kinect and do like a bunch of different things, that makes sense to me. And so the fact that like, they weren't really willing to stay with that, you know, and then PlayStation had like this, the the blue, Blu-Ray I almost said Bluetooth, but they had that too. Well, like, you know, where they were doing the Blu-Ray and they were introducing like, you know, browsing, it's so funny for it not to be Windows, but PlayStation to

come up with browsing on your PlayStation, like, yeah, we have an internet browser, and do things like that. And I think, especially because depending on the caliber of gamer you are, you're gonna have all of the systems, or you're just gonna be like, hey, I have this one because most of the games that I like, I like the exclusives of this one. And so I think there could have definitely been growth for every company on the in -between. And...

Like I think Google Stadia, I think they're going to come back with everything going to cloud. I think exactly, exactly. I don't like the idea of cloud, but like our, I mean, our generation right now. Well, I don't know if you're a millennial or not. You don't have to tell us, but I'm a millennial. And so right now we like, we have the spending power. Like we're having the kids, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And, they are trying to make us forget that we had like hardware, like they're trying to make us forget.

Giselle (33:49.774)
See, I even freaked out. Yeah, yeah.

Junae (34:15.418)
This is propaganda, you guys. This is hardware propaganda. Like they're trying to make us forget that we had that. So they're like, cloud, cloud, yeah, put everything on the cloud. do you want to game anywhere? Yeah, you can game anywhere. do you want to take Banjo Kazooie and like play it while you're in the airport? get our cloud system. And you know, this person on TikTok really broke it down because...

I know everyone's talking about like, you know, when I booted up a game on Christmas, like, or when I booted up my system on Christmas, I didn't have to update through this, this and that. And, you know, even now, if we buy the disk, we still have to have it registered that it's our disk and it downloads the rest of the game. And I was like, that's crazy, because I'm like, yep, get your disk. You're still going to be able to play your game. That's not true, because if you plug it in and you only got like the first part.

And the rest part, they're like, hey, we decided not to update this game anymore. You don't have it. And I know they're cracking down like on piracy, but I feel like that's also why people were like, no, I have the game. Like I have the game because then y 'all gonna come out with like a special edition 10 years later where this console is not working anymore. Then I gotta buy that console just to play Kingdom Hearts. Just to play Kingdom Hearts, you know, like, and, and.

Giselle (35:35.886)
Honestly.

Junae (35:39.386)
why I'm not a huge Kingdom Hearts fan, but like watching the fact that like, I don't know how many years people waited for like three, but like watching three, I think skip like two generations of consoles and then come to like PlayStation four was really like crazy to me. Like I, you know, people are dedicated. It wasn't crazy. Like it was the massive support of like the fans and stuff like that. So obviously this is a passionate topic.

Giselle (36:06.222)
No, I feel you on the no, no, I feel you on the hardware. Like I I'll admit I'm Gen Z, but I see a lot of people going back to very, very old consoles in my generation. Like a lot of my friends, they have an N64. They have all these things where because they want to feel like they're actually owning the games and property that they're buying. Like, I don't understand. I think I've seen a lot of headlines about.

games releasing, but then being like, well, technically you don't own the like expansion rights or you don't own this and that. And I'm like, so what is the point of like purchasing it? Like, I feel like it's a little bit of a loss of understanding where we're at. Like you said, like it's going to be some DLC or you don't have the, this part of the game, you got to go buy this and this and this. And it just becomes a whole process that I feel like.

If you're already a gamer, you'll invest in because you want to play the game you want to continue on. But I feel like for new people, it's a very overwhelming experience to, OK, I'm really excited. Maybe I have 10, 15 minutes. I want to pop in this game and try. Nope, just kidding. You have 30 minutes of console updates. You have 30 minutes of downloading this new content. And I just feel like we're getting to a place where it's becoming a very subscription based model almost for a game.

Junae (37:13.53)
We'll be right back.

Giselle (37:22.382)
And I feel like I just miss the times where it's like, I bought this game. I can have this game forever. The replayability I don't have to worry about. and I just feel, I do have some hope. I feel like our generation is kind of shifting back to the emulators even, and trying to grab those old Pokemon games and just sitting down and being like, well, I can play red and blue and sit here and know that I can play red and blue forever and not have to worry about all these other things that I'm potentially missing out on. And even to touch on the console wars where like,

I feel like the console wars in the back half of the war, I guess, became more like exclusivity. It became what games are on what rather than the consoles offering different aspects to gameplay. I did like, I almost bought a PS because there was some games, I think I'm thinking of Until Dawn, where the new controller on PS had that mechanism where you could hold the controller and not move. And that was part of the gameplay. And I was like, that's really unique. That's really different. I haven't seen that.

Junae (38:20.602)
mm-Hmm going to go ahead and turn it off. to go ahead and turn it off.

Giselle (38:22.126)
on these other consoles, like, I'm more inclined to get something like that because it's doing something new. But then it kind of just became, well, we bought the rights to this game now and this game has this. And it was just now it's more about kind of like what you were saying. What games are you gravitating towards? What are you willing to spend your money on? And not just a one time purchase, but over time to maintain your ownership of the game. And I feel like why are we trying to maintain ownership? We should just have gotten the game. I do understand that it

loops back to companies are trying to make money and so everyone's kind of gravitating towards that model. But also storage, like I feel like for my Switch, the not having the hard copies, like I am always struggling to like offload certain things and download different saves and it just becomes such a management issue. And I feel like it's kind of killing the idea of like family gaming or casual gaming where you can just pop on a game and start, you know, like the starting process is so tedious.

And I know for my, you know, my family, like whenever there's something like that, they call down their software engineer and they're like, Giselle, please come help us configure. And it's like, I feel like there should not be a need to configure anything. I feel like just plug and play, like what happened to that? You know, but I understand the pushing for cloud. I just feel like I've already seen certain things come out that worry me about actually maintaining ownership over what you buy. But hopefully there's a way that we can structure it. That's not.

Junae (39:28.282)
Thank you.

Giselle (39:50.478)
The worst? You know?

Junae (39:52.346)
Yeah, I think with talking about seeing the subscription of everything, then we should have just kept Blockbuster and just rented everything, right? You can only rent this game for so long, you know, like, because if you tell me I'm paying to rent it for like 10 years, I'd be like, maybe it is worth turning it on and doing this like that, I think. And you know, Microsoft,

Xbox is always trying to utilize, it's just plug and play. You know, you plug in, you go. And it's not the same thing. And it's nice to have my PlayStation game with like Jackson, Jack and Dex. I think that was it. And I could just plug it in right now. I could turn on my PlayStation 3, plug it in, and that's it.

I got the game because that's what we used to do. And we're like, we don't want to deal with the update. I'm going to cut off the internet. And now it's like, you need this to play the game or the game's not going to start. You know, it's not like, you know, you can't do online play. It's like, a quarter of the game is really not going to work unless you do this. And that's frustrating. And so I, you know, I have hope for that. I don't know how to help revolutionize, you know, in that way with, with like,

cloud and hardware because more people are just complaining about it. But like everyone's really exhausted and pulled in so many ways. It's like, I just want to play my game. And it's like.

Giselle (41:29.006)
Yes, I think the biggest issue that I saw, and I think this is a good starting point if anyone wants to, you know, maybe start this. I remember the day my heart broke when we got our new Xbox and we had one of our favorite games. It's called Fusion Frenzy, underrated game. If you haven't played it, it's the best. We plugged it in. We put the disc in. We were so excited. And we got the message that they chose to not do backwards compatibility.

and now you just have to pay for new stuff and buy our new games. And I, as a child, did not understand what that meant at the time. And I was just confused as to why on a newer thing I couldn't use my old thing. And now I have this piece of media that I love that I can no longer play unless I do a bunch of complicated stuff to basically jailbreak my console into playing it. And I was like...

maybe let's start there. Like maybe just let people play the stuff that they already have without needing to. Because like then it becomes we cut off service to our old thing. You got to figure it out. And it just becomes this perpetuating of you have all this media that you can't play unless you're moving with the times. And I just feel like what when do we like kind of understand that we are losing a lot of what we love? And I guess, you know, someone can argue with cool, that's life. Like it's just no longer time for that game. But like.

Is it though, like we did, like I should be able to play a game that I grew up loving and I feel like I shouldn't have to roundabout way to do it. So like my biggest qualm is backwards compatibility would be nice on several consoles. So if we're going to do cloud stuff, at least make sure I can play a cloud version of something. so that's my only, that's my hope. That's like the one thing I hope that they do actually look into is like playing old retro titles. You know? Yeah.

Junae (43:19.386)
I think they can do it too. I don't know why they're changing the disk and the things that read the disk of why they're, you know, I don't know too much about that. Maybe, you know, that's like more your thing that you could speak to the tech. I don't even know if you can. I don't know if that's like an engineering thing or what, but it's like.

putting the disc together differently than the last console and putting the console together differently than the last console so it doesn't read feels diabolical because y 'all had a formula and then you changed it because you were like, they're going to buy the new one. And that feels on purpose, you know? And yeah, I think everyone has to have that point where they're like, dang, this really happened. Like,

Giselle (43:49.71)
Yeah!

Giselle (44:07.502)
Mm -hmm.

Junae (44:08.634)
we're here now, you know, and it's you do you like I know everyone's just like, I'm gonna eat that I'm an adult and it's like, yeah, but that's what being an adult is. You don't have to eat that. You could you could be the change you could do something about it. So if you want to revolutionize, say it in the comments. I will get this petition going like, because it's so important. Like, that just made me sad. Like that just made me really sad because like,

Giselle (44:19.95)
Exactly.

Giselle (44:30.19)
Please.

Giselle (44:36.366)
Yeah.

Junae (44:37.338)
What are we doing? Did we become the new adults to still be powerless to like, you know, money hungry corporate look, look at my activism showing to be, you know, like.

Giselle (44:45.87)
No, honestly, I didn't want to bring it in, but I was like, this is some end stage capitalism. So like, I can't play a game I grew up with. Like, I just feel like there are certain things that are blatantly on purpose. And I feel like because the mat, like you're saying, like we kind of just eat it because we want, you know, to see new things. And we, we are grateful for the developers working on things that are coming out, but I feel like we don't have to take it. I don't think we have to take it. And I think speaking out about it. And I think the immersion of social media has allowed us to.

have a voice and say and push back on when things are not something that we love. Do I think the gaming space tends to be a little bit much with some of the things? Yeah. Good example of that, Cyberpunk, where the developers were like, hey, we're not finished. And the user base was like, no, just release it. And then they released it and it was buggy. And they're like, we kind of said that we weren't done. Bad example of that. Good example, Sonic movie that came out.

trailer dropped, people hated the animation, we're like, this looks bad and they fixed it. So it's like, sometimes it does matter that we can have a voice and have a say to change things to, you know, shape media the way that we want it to be released. But, you know, I, you know, I see how other times it's, you know, not for the best, but I do think, you know, the masses can do something if you see that people on social media aren't really reacting the best. Maybe look into that. Maybe it is something that they want.

I know backwards compatibility is something that people have wanted for years. It's just not something that they want to prioritize. So I'll make a petition. I'll sign it. Someone tell me if it exists because I would for sure be right there front and center waving a giant flag.

Junae (46:27.194)
what Gisele is trying not to say is bullying, right? Right? But like, you know, and these are like for the better bullying, right? Like the sonic thing, like he just looked really scary and I didn't believe that was a real thing because there's no way you have these talented people because like,

Giselle (46:31.066)
Pullium!

Giselle (46:44.238)
Jump scare. Jump scare.

Junae (46:51.77)
If my seven -year -old niece can draw a better Sonic, like teeth wise and like whatever, I don't understand why you who got paid, unless you lied on your application, you could tell us. You could tell us because we have been told to do it now for a very long time. You could be like, hi, that was actually me and I just needed the money. And if you told anybody that, they'd have been like, cut me a piece, I'll help you. Send in my design. Cause what you're not going to do is like mess this up. And so.

Giselle (47:02.094)
Yeah.

Junae (47:19.194)
I think we all have to actively be like, you're gonna lose money if you don't do this, but it's hard to rally some of the people, you know? It's like we're fighting so many things. We're in this age of information. At any time I can know what's going on and you know, we were talking about all these places earlier. At any time I can know what's going on at any part of the world by typing in like one keyword. It is overwhelming.

You know, and like, this isn't a priority in the world, in the order of like human rights and things like that. But I think, not but, I think we have to start somewhere. I think it needs to be something like, you know, I really, and I love how people say, look what we did with the sonic thing. Yes, keep that same energy. A dub is a dub. Like we can do it in this, we could do it in so much more. And so.

We have to figure that out because we're losing some of the art. And some of these video games that aren't able to play anymore are an art form, which is also a form of activism, which people should absolutely be able to play. I couldn't stomach, I just forgot the name of it. Wolfenheimer?

Giselle (48:40.718)
Wolfenstein? Yeah, I got it. Yeah.

Junae (48:40.922)
Wolfenstein, thank you. I couldn't stomach Wolfenstein, but like, I don't even know if people can play it anymore. It's just an example, you know, of that being like, like you play it and you're like, like once again, right, having the mindset to think about it. So if you don't know what Wolfenstein is, I'm gonna butcher it just a little bit. It's a game where you stop Nazis from doing.

Giselle (48:51.022)
Mm -hmm.

Giselle (48:56.334)
Yeah.

Junae (49:10.138)
experiments on Jewish people, which yeah, it is, you know, because they're doing like inhumane like experiments, like turning them into like monsters and like stuff like that. So, so yeah, you know, but like, when you play things that are activism, right, I'm not saying like, that's the only form of it. And a lot of games are just for fun. But some some of them talk about the planet.

Giselle (49:12.014)
You kill Nazis, man. I look, it's a topic. It's a topic.

Junae (49:39.802)
Some of them, they talk about marginalized groups. Some of them bring us into different worlds and see things. Little Nightmares was a bit creepy, but I think that reminds us of time when we were a child and we were scared. And it's like, as adults, am I being nice to children? I think any game can invoke emotion and reflection. And I think we need that. And if we lose the art of playing some of these games, especially,

in the era where like a lot of people didn't have access to game development tools and you had to be like, this is gonna be a good game. like this is really gonna be good. I think, you know, we lose a piece of like history because it's art. You know, all of it was inspired by something and it has a hidden message behind it. So we just, we need it. We need to preserve.

every form that we can in a way that lets the companies know like, hey, you can't just sell us, you know, sand in a desert. Like you can't do that. Like you really have to work harder. You can't just throw a whole bunch of money into doing VR. And you know what I mean? And being like, PlayStation VR is gonna like change everything and it's gonna be...

It's crazy and it's like, yeah, but all those games that you were playing, you can only play new titles and our titles at that, you can only play God of War Uncharted. Like, you know, like things like that. Like it's, it's not good. It's not, it's this episode wasn't exactly, you know, it's never really meant to be lighthearted, but like, you know, these are the issues. These are.

Giselle (51:20.75)
Yeah.

Junae (51:29.562)
These are a real thing. And I feel like that is gaming culture to not just let it get taken from us, not just let them feed us anything. Because as I keep saying, we keep seeing a bunch of layoffs, but there is not a lack of games releasing. There's still game after game. Everybody and their mama got a showcase. Everybody in the end. And it's a new game every showcase. They don't even have to show us old stuff. Like, yeah, maybe Kojima stuff, right? Because he just takes forever to like...

Giselle (51:47.278)
Mm -hmm. Yep.

Junae (51:58.458)
make his games, he wants it to be done properly. But there's not a lack of that. So don't let them tell you that they can't. Don't let them tell you there's no money. Don't let them tell you we could bully them for the Kinect. And then how cool would it be to bully them to get the Kinect back, to still have ID at Xbox, to have these new game devs make these games that go with the Kinect so that we can be physical.

in our homes and the privacy of our homes to do these things because y 'all took away Dance Central. I'll never forgive you for that. I'll never forgive you. Like...

Giselle (52:32.174)
will never forgive. I still honestly like I'm going to call myself out. I still go on YouTube and pretend I'm doing it. I still do it. You know what? You got to do it like I'm so sad that they took it away. Like I genuinely think I know how to dance to this day because of Dance Central. And I know that it was before its time. And I know that it has its time. It could come back. It could be because we have things that are more similar now.

Junae (52:38.682)
Same, same, you gotta pound the strawberries, yeah! Like... Yeah.

Junae (52:51.322)
Yeah.

Junae (52:57.818)
I agree.

Giselle (53:00.75)
But like, for example, people get sick in VR. Like there are some things that I feel like we can bring back if we just, if we just bring it back, bullying a little bit, I guess on a positive note to like, we've been focusing on a lot of the bigger studios, but kind of to touch on what you were saying, like there are so many people who are releasing games. There are so many indie studios, individual developers that are releasing games that are unique, different, that do touch on social commentary that is beautiful. I just feel like we tend to be so focused on like the newest, best and

better graphics all the time. And I feel like there's still such amazing games out there that are outside of the, you know, these huge titles and studios that release that are equally as amazing, that are equally as transformative. Cause I think for me, like it's always been the smaller games that I'm like, wow, actually that was like a journey. That was like an experience. Like I am changed forever because I played it. But you know, not to say that those aren't out there, it's just they don't get as supported.

Junae (53:52.058)
-huh.

Giselle (53:57.838)
because I feel like the masses are always looking to the biggest and best titles all the time. Not to say that it wasn't great. God of War, the latest one, Ragnarok, it was beautiful. Love it. It was amazing. But at the same time, we don't always have to just, you know, be stressing about the same couple of things. I do think that there are a bigger, wider audience that we could focus on, that we can boost up, that are doing the things that we're talking about. Not to be like Debbie Downer the whole time. But yeah.

Junae (54:23.706)
Yeah, no, you know, I think you're saying you're speaking facts, you know, and if there are any developers who are listening right now and you have a game or a game demo, send it over. I'll play it as a game journalist. I started I started doing game journalism from indie games because they were giving me the codes and me and indie games are like that we're tight. We're close like this is us, you know, and so I will forever be a fan of indie games because.

Giselle (54:34.894)
We need your game.

Junae (54:52.314)
You know, it's the epitome of like, you cannot break me. You can take what you're gonna take, but my mind still lives on, my spirit still lives on. And so if you got games, I wanna see them and I'm gonna be fair about how I review them. I always am, you know, so send in whatever you have because I'm really, really interested.

in playing your game, I'm interested in supporting the indie dev community. I recently became an indie dev myself. So like, you know, I, I'm doing my, my best to like, keep up that same energy because I'm not going to lie. I did get geeked when like Ubisoft started giving me, you know, like Assassin's Creed and Far Cry because that was a milestone for me because people weren't really coming to my blog for like.

the indie games, they were like, what do you think about Assassin's Creed? I'm like, everybody and their mama got a thought about Assassin's Creed, but like, have you heard of like Soda Crush? Like that was a real game, you know? There was always, there was also this other one called White Boys with Attitude, but you know what I mean? You gotta be in the trenches to find those. Like you're not gonna see those in a showcase. So, you know, it's, we, I think we have to support the indie devs. And I also think companies need to be.

Giselle (55:48.43)
Heh.

Giselle (55:57.742)
Yeah.

Junae (56:12.314)
mindful of their technology because like, just because like if you and I had a company and we were working on a Kinect game, and it's like, it's taken us a long time to like do movements. And maybe, you know, we weren't like a branch of Xbox and Microsoft, and then they scrapped it, we would have been like, absolutely screwed. And who's to say that that didn't happen. And so maybe there are more people who want to make movement games as accessibility becomes more popular, you know, and people with disabilities are being

included into things. Maybe people do want to do that. And so they need to have the technology to express themselves and bring these ideas to the audience. So.

Heh heh heh heh. Hoo. Heh heh.

Giselle (56:56.014)
Hehehehe

AKA send your games over. We need you.

Junae (57:01.53)
your games over because you are le grassroots. We are le community. So quick transition. TLDR. What's the Gen Z way of saying don't? What is it?

Giselle (57:11.406)
Hmm.

Giselle (57:20.078)
Yeah, TLDR. I feel like we're pretty, I mean, especially with our attention spans, it's definitely TLDR now for sure.

Junae (57:25.594)
There's another word where you're like, somebody was saying it and I can't remember, but you're like, yeah, like switching subjects abruptly. It's like a pathway. It's like, it's like a, yeah, no, we're going to find, you're like, we got to look it up. We got, you're going to hear some clickety clacks, but I'm about to look up like,

Giselle (57:36.91)
Hmm See now I'm curious I'm older Gen Z too, so I'm getting up there

Giselle (57:49.806)
Yeah.

Giselle (57:58.158)
I'm curious now, because I'm like, is it something I know?

Junae (57:59.514)
What?

my gosh, this is 20 sheets. We don't need 20, we don't need it! Not lit, lit is not a Gen Z word.

Giselle (58:04.91)
Yes!

Yeah, I feel like that's an older one.

Junae (58:12.314)
Yeah, and low -key isn't either. Yeet definitely isn't. So she wouldn't know. Like this person wouldn't know Gen Z from AAVE.

Giselle (58:17.806)
Hahaha!

Junae (58:30.042)
So like, when we used to be like random, but like, that's a new thing. Like, and they said something. Yeah.

Giselle (58:35.854)
I see, I see, I see. I see what you're saying. It's like one word that you say and then it's like to the next. Yeah, I don't know. I'm like, my sister reminds me every single day that I'm getting up there and she's like, I'm not hip anymore. I don't know what's going on. You know, all the skibbity toilet stuff. I'm like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what's going on.

Junae (58:46.074)
Yeah, that you're not hip.

my gosh. Please. Yeah. Yeah. No, I guess we just want to know if you know, let us know and we'll we'll like get there. But yeah, it was just like because you know, it's like, you know, light up the chat or it'd be like sub chat. Like, I know that one because that's very much like streamer talk and things like that. So.

Giselle (59:03.63)
Please.

haha

Giselle (59:16.078)
life. I really do be like: "What's going on, chat?" I definitely do that.

Junae (59:19.706)
Yeah, like, it's just some things make sense. Like, I'm never going to be like, everyone should have fun in the way that they want to. But switching to a topic where we switched to a topic where we talked about topic switching, now switching to the real topic. Yeah, so I talked a little bit about Assassin's Creed and they have a new one coming out. I think Assassin's Creed is releasing them rather quickly because what was just Assassin's Creed like Mirage and now we're on Assassin's Creed. Actually,

Giselle (59:32.526)
Hahaha!

Junae (59:48.41)
I need to get the right term. I need to get the right title for it, because everything is Assassin's Creed. And then you just say the name. You know what I mean? You just say the name of, OK, hey, this person. Is it Shadow? Is it Shadow's Black? Assassin's Creed Shadows. I think Shadow. Shadow. Let's just make sure there's no S, because I know people are very particular about their IPs.

Giselle (59:57.742)
Yeah, yeah

Giselle (01:00:08.942)
Yeah, shadow, I think it's shadow? Question mark?

Right. They're going to be like, it was an S.

Junae (01:00:17.434)
There is an S, Assassin's Creed Shadows, which releases November 15th. So about Yasuke, not Yusuke, not Yu Yu Hakusho, we're talking about Yasuke, an actual historic figure who was a Black samurai during the time of 1581 to 1582. So he was in the Daimyo for a period of 15 months during the Sengoku.

Giselle (01:00:20.75)
I'm glad we checked.

Junae (01:00:47.194)
period and he is now the head figure, head main character in Assassin's Creed. Now Assassin's Creed isn't really, no, Assassin's Creed is not super known for historical accuracy. I think they do really well with time periods and having like that specific time period, like the things that were in that time period around.

because I ain't never met an Ezio Auditore, you know, in my historical studies. However, they have based it on, you know, the samurai and they did the same thing in Odyssey, right? Where they had Cassandra and stuff like, well not Cassandra, but you know, they have tried to be like, like this is Leonidas, right? Like we see Leonidas in there and things like that. Like I remember in Assassin's Creed Brotherhood,

there was like a crucifixion and I was like, what? Like I was really like, it really stunted me. I had to like cut the game off for a little bit because I was like, what just happened? And so now they have elements of that. And I think they do that really, really well, but mixed with fantasy because nobody has an animus. Like they're, you know what I mean? There's a bunch of hidden things of the Da Vinci code and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I feel like they add those things in there, but a lot of people are upset.

Giselle, why are they upset? Why are these people mad?

Giselle (01:02:19.086)
I think anytime there is a Black -centric character of any sort, people take to the streets. I genuinely am not shocked at this reaction, only because it always happens when there's a Black character involved, especially if they are a main character of any sorts. I think we are not strangers to this happening time and time again. I think it's interesting that people are taking the route of all of a sudden,

We want extreme historical accuracy. We want extreme this and that, which is funny because I think like you mentioned, like Assassin's Creed isn't really known for being like historically perfect with everything they're doing. Like literally the fighting styles. It's a game. I think people are forgetting it is a video game. And I do appreciate what they're trying to do, but I genuinely feel like people are just upset because they like to riot when we're swapping out characters that are not what they're expecting. And I think...

It's a tale as old as time, unfortunately. and I, you know, it's actually a second wave for me because the first time I heard of Yasuke, they made an anime and Netflix original called Yasuke about the same Black samurai and people did not, did not take well to it. And I was like, this is actually a very crazy take because this is, this is someone that existed. This is a real figure that actually probably.

I don't know what the plot line is going to be for Assassin's Creed specifically, but in the show, I know that they touch on topics that he did have to explain and talk about for the time period that he was in. And I just feel like we're now doing it again where people are trying to negate a very real historic story for the sake of just being upset that it's a Black character. And I feel like it's just people complaining to complain about something.

You know, and I always ask people the question, okay, well, what would you like to see? And it's almost never answered. They just want to complain about this being a Black person and almost never have an alternative to fill in that blank, you know?

Junae (01:04:30.138)
Well, Giselle, I'm gonna, I'm gonna prove you wrong right now and let you know why these people have something to be mad about. So Reddit's not really to be taken seriously, right? It's not always the voice of the people. I think there's some good things on here, but I read something from Reddit and this guy says, I asked, you know,

historians how accurate Assassin's Creed Valhalla was, because that was when it was a white person, right? And you could play as a guy or a girl and I love Valhalla. I thought it was so cool because like I, you know, got to play as like a female Viking and that was really exciting for me. But as that's not my history, like I'm not Nordic or anything like that. So I wouldn't know about the...

history of it and someone on Reddit says about Assassin's Creed Valhalla, the games are meant to be historically inspired, not historically accurate, you know? So that's one thing. And then this is Reddit. Like again, you know, for this is Assassin's Creed Origins, right? So Assassin's Creed Origins had like slavery and stuff in there.

And so like, this is just the beginning of the comment where, you know, someone asked like about Assassin's Creed origins in the slavery and it says slavery wasn't seen as something good or bad. It was an alternative death, i .e. you owe money to someone and instead of like forfeiting your property, you just forfeit your life. So, you know, what I want to say is that there, these conversations are different, right? How, how historic, how,

They're not really asking how accurate is Yasuke's story going to be. They're saying in a land of non -black people, why would you feature a Black person and they're going to stand out and they're going to do this? Well, that's true now. We have not integrated with non -black society. We still...

Junae (01:06:38.426)
stand out. It's giving main character energy. That's how I feel. Anytime I walk into a space where I am the only woman, I'm the only Black woman, I'm like, it's giving main character because they're all going to stare at me and be like, why are you here? Why are you here? And like, I choose to be here on my own volition because I love what I do. And I'm going to continue to do it. So people are upset about Yasuke because yes, they like to complain about something. They're not fully hip.

with the idea of diversity, which is why a lot of the diversity funding is going away. I feel like I've been talking about this for a very long time. I'm spilling all of the tea because Giselle is my first like girl on my podcast. And so like, we just have to have like tea time, you know? And so I've been saying for a very long time in a lot of my articles and my newsletter is that like the diversity funds are going away. It's going away. It's no longer like gonna pay you to be

a Black woman, a Black game dev, a Black this, like literally it's not going to pay because the funds are going away. Everyone got on this bandwagon of giving Black people money when George Floyd, Sandra, like, you know, when all of these people were being murdered, all of the people, I remember I used to have a memorial on my Twitch and like I looked at the folder the other day and it's too many. It's too, like I literally didn't have to repeat a picture for like an hour.

You know, and so they jumped on this bandwagon, just like a lot of investors did with gaming when they saw, you know, it going up during the pandemic. They jumped on this bandwagon of like putting in extra money, of putting aside extra money for diversity and inclusion, specifically for Black people at the time, right? They were very, very like, hey, you're Black, let's work together. I want to give you all of my resources. And a lot of people aren't comfortable with that.

they want to think they're comfortable with it, but when something happens, like, you know, because I wasn't really on the internet when Black Flag released and Adewale was like a part of Assassin's Creed. And then they had like that slave trade thing going in like Cuba and the Caribbean and things like that. I don't know what the comments were like, but me knowing the internet, I can say that they probably weren't so upset that like Black people were in slavery and they were in their place, right?

Junae (01:09:00.154)
they're a place that they're used to seeing. And so people are not fully ready to admit. They're not fully ready to admit that they're not comfortable seeing Black people being the main character or Black people winning, you know. And I see like study after study, observation after observation of white women talking about other white women, about how they benefit from the patriarchy. So like,

when they see a Black woman who like loves herself or like, you know, I don't know, like with a white man or doing something a white woman is supposed to do while a Black woman is not supposed to have access, they automatically challenge it for the white patriarchy, for the white men, for like, you know, to be a part of it, to say, I'm supporting it, I'm upholding it. And, you know, I feel like, all my theories are just pouring out. And I feel like, you know, a good example of that is all these people like,

Yeah, we won't vote for Trump. And then he won. So y 'all was lying. You were only virtue signaling. And like, you know, just say you was virtue signaling and we already know who to look at sideways and we already know who's going to do what. And a lot of people are just virtue signaling because it ain't tricking if you got it. I can make a diversity fund right now and I can throw a mill at you and be like, I did my job.

I don't know what else you want from me. I've already, and it was a tax write -off. I threw a bill. I didn't even lose it. You know what I mean? Like, it ain't tricking if you got it. At the end of the day, I think, you know, that's what happened. And so like right now the Black Game Developer Fund is gone. You know, that's not a thing anymore. And like, if that was something that was helping all of these games get published and look polished and things like that, and look like they were able to have love and care put into them.

what's going to happen now. They got to go back and compete with like, you know, all these people for spots at like ID and Xbox, like the camps that they're doing and things like that. And the reason why they made these in the first place is because it wasn't enough Black people. It wasn't enough Black and brown. It wasn't enough minorities, LGBTQ. Like it just wasn't enough. So that is why the people are mad. 10 minutes later, that is my conspiracy theory that I will.

Junae (01:11:16.89)
double down on every time.

Giselle (01:11:21.646)
Yeah, Like I it's exactly that is literally exactly it. And I feel I feel like it's it's not a new thing to me. It's so sad that I that people, in my opinion, fundamentally also misunderstand main character energy, because I feel like is that not exactly what a main character does is go about their business and not really care about the fact that they may not fit in the whole point.

is that they're the main character. I think you're kind of right. I think it's a combination of virtue signaling and people being upset and not willing to admit that they cannot identify with a character. They have never had the experience of this character not being someone that they can identify with somehow. And I feel like it's hard for me to understand that because I've always known the opposite. So for me, it's like...

Well, this isn't new. Like this is exactly what's been happening for the past, my entire life and decades before. Like it's just so shocking to me that it's kind of like, I guess there's like a phenomenon where like, if you've never experienced something, it's almost impossible to kind of fully understand somebody else's experience. I think, you know, part of me is kind of cackling and laughing because it's like, you're experiencing something that I experienced on a daily basis. And like, you're throwing a major tantrum fit about it.

crazy take, but I just feel like the level of, I guess, passion that people are having to try and discredit, disprove this coming out is such an extra step that we never see until it's not something that the masses agree with. And I feel like that's my problem where we are all of a sudden pulling from things that aren't even true just to disprove something.

And you were preaching so many different things there. Like I genuinely feel like we aren't talking enough about why these programs and funding are in place in the first place. I think people don't fundamentally understand why programs that do fund Black creators, Black creatives, Black developers are important because we already do not have the same level when we are in main spaces, when we share main spaces. And this is a perfect example of why we need programs like this because...

Giselle (01:13:46.862)
look at the reaction to a, this is a real person, but like a fictional main character in a fictional game causes this type of riot. You can look at this reaction and really realistically turn around and tell me, you guys do have the same opportunities, but even if it's not a real character, we're arguing about the fact that this person's a main character in a video game, but you're arguing and dying on the hill that we have those same opportunities. I just feel like it's a very interesting.

disparity, that we are consistently not looking at the nuance of the situation. And by us, I mean people who are complaining about this. People who are like, my God, this is super socially unacceptable, are the same people who are saying that, well, these programs need to expand, these programs need to include everyone. It's because you don't know what it's like to not be included. So you're all of a sudden thinking that everything has to include everybody when you're not understanding the nuance of the situation. But...

Maybe that's too hot to press on, but I just feel like it's an important thing to talk about because it does encapsulate a bigger issue. Like there's a huge problem and we're pretending that, you guys are always tying it to, you know, bigger, better things. You go, we're always making about race. You're always making about ethnicity. This is why examples like this are exactly why these conversations need to take place because people don't understand the nuance of the situation. They don't understand why these things are in place. And, you know, if, if I have to.

you know, be the one who's always saying it within my community, I'm happy to, but it's just kind of, at this point, at least for me, like exhausting to see the same complaints over and over again about things that, in my opinion, should be normalized at this point, you know, but.

Junae (01:15:26.586)
I think we have normalized the complaining more than they have normalized having a character who doesn't look like them. You know, and you are also very familiar with like UI and UX practices. And we talk so much about biases, right? Biases, biases, biases, check your biases, make sure that you're not just clinging to one person because they look like you, even if they're a detriment to like everything else, make sure you're not doing group think.

and you're thinking for yourselves and asking those important questions. And, you know, a lot of people who are like forced to check their biases are the ones like being like, hey, we should cut the program because they don't need it and things like that. And I don't know. I think this starts in the home and school level and mandatory, you know, learning and things like that. So I am tired of talking about it, you know.

Giselle (01:16:21.838)
Yeah.

Junae (01:16:22.842)
but it's like, if we don't, what happens, right? Everybody gets complacent. And I had a pod, one podcast guest called creatively, and she made melanin gamers and she takes me through the origins. And she's like, I made melanin gamers because my brother was getting bullied for playing on the game. And she was like, if he stops playing who wins. And she was like, I would love to stop melanin gamers tomorrow. If y 'all would stop.

Giselle (01:16:26.702)
Exactly.

Junae (01:16:50.458)
would love to do that, but like I'm doing this because there's a need for it. We don't want to be needed in that way. Do you think we all woke up and dreamt of being diversity consultants and telling people over and over again of why they should include people and how to include people and things like that? Like, didn't we all learn to share in kindergarten, share and care? Like, why are we not doing basic principles? Like, why are we not doing basic things? So.

Giselle (01:17:20.17)
Agreed, agreed. It should not be a secondary nature that has to come with also introducing who I am as a person consistently. But like you said, like if we don't do it, who does it? If we don't do it, what comes of anything? You know? And, I know it just kind of reminded me, I know we're trying to wind down of the like Black, the Black girl gamers on Twitter that occurred, like.

Do people not understand what having like safe spaces means? Like do people not understand like the whole like idea of why we need these groups is because of these behaviors? That's all. That's all I'll say.

Junae (01:18:01.21)
a story that I've never told anybody except for the person who was like directly involved. So I was in the beginning of Black Girl Gamers and doing like all of the fun stuff that was happening in the beginning. And, and, you know, I was applying for a job and I was telling them like, Hey, I've managed X amount of people. I've done these things. I've really taken initiative and like a management role.

And it was a job at Chase Bank for like UX design because that's what I studied and I was really trying to get in. And like, as a journalist, it seemed like a really good space because research and I can do all of that stuff. And the person who set me up, she was like my UX mentor. She introduced me to him. And so, you know, the conversation was going great because he was also a journalist and we're like, yeah, yeah, la dee la dee la. And I was like, "yeah, Black girl gamers". He was like, "black girl gamers?" I said, "uh oh this wasn't the interview to mention that". And he was like,

Giselle (01:18:55.886)
Hmm.

Junae (01:18:56.922)
"Why do Black girl gamers need a space versus, you know, white girl gamers?" And, you know.

Giselle (01:19:09.07)
Wow, Megan.

Junae (01:19:09.914)
So I said, being the quick on my feet thinker that I am, I said, well, you know how when you go to work, you're one person, and then when you come home, you can be yourself with your family, right? Like we have our professional selves and then we have like our familial selves. And I was like, that's why women, Black women need a space. So, you know, there are women gamer groups, there are Black gamer groups, like Latin gamer groups, like Latin women gamer groups, there.

are those, so you know, everyone kind of gets it and he was kind of like, oh and you kind of heard him like shut down from there. And I was like, at the end of the day, I did a good job explaining why you don't know anything as an ex year old, blah, blah, white man who was a journalist who did this, you know, and I think I'm, I ended up telling the person who like set up the interview and she was like, you should have told me sooner. I'm not sending anybody back to him because like, what is his problem? And I was like, yeah, you know, but like, if we don't talk about it,

who will because now even if he doesn't like it, he's thinking about it. And this was years ago. This was like 2018. So now when he sees everything that's going on, he's definitely going to remember that I said that even if he doesn't like it, and then he's going to tell somebody else because when we don't like something, what do we do? We tell somebody else when we like something, what do we do? We tell somebody else. And so there are people I made an impact.

on him by telling him something that he probably doesn't like or needed to like time to sit with, right? I don't know. I don't, I don't know where he is now or like whatever. And so people don't understand that, but like they don't understand that. And then we'll sit in their own echo chamber. Like that isn't their safe space, babes. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. Yours is just not accountable. Yours is just, yes, let's burn and destroy anything that doesn't look like us. So yeah.

Giselle (01:20:50.094)
Right.

Junae (01:21:01.146)
I'm okay with people not understanding safe spaces. I want to get to a place where they're respected, right? Like, yeah.

Giselle (01:21:10.51)
That's my thing. That's my thing. I'm okay if you're like fundamentally not understanding why, but I think my discourse comes in when you are actively trying to push back or invade a very peaceful space because you don't understand. I think there's a difference between coming at it from a point of curiosity and being like, well, I don't get why I can't be a part of it. And what ended up happening where it was like, well, I should be a part of it. And it's this entitlement of.

Are you trying to learn or are you just trying to disrupt? Because if you're trying to disrupt, then like you're just destroying and burning and you're actively telling everybody you're entirely fearful of other people living their life in peace without you somehow.

Junae (01:21:55.322)
And I feel like you can tell the people who like, I think everybody has the story of like, hey, I wasn't popular. I wasn't really allowed in a lot of things. And because I was excluded as a lot of things when I was younger, I'm kind of okay with not being a part of things now because like one, I probably don't want to be in a space where people just don't want me around. And two, if that's a space not for me or for somebody else, I respect that, you know? And so, but,

Also, this comes from I'm not the majority. So I didn't have to be in everything and everybody, like even with my siblings of me being the youngest of X amount of years, I wasn't included in what they were doing. We all had like our time together, but they were like, go sit down somewhere. Like, you know, we're trying to do this, you're gonna slow us down, like, you know, things like that. And that's not sad. I hope that doesn't sound sad, because you know, it's just being younger, you just get left out of things and.

Giselle (01:22:48.506)
you

Junae (01:22:52.762)
You know, I think it teaches you boundaries though. People have those boundaries. Hey, you can't come to my birthday party even though everybody else is going because you're not nice to me. I'm not going to invite you to show you what kindness is. You're going to learn kindness with somebody else and not me. You're going to learn boundaries like with me, you know, or like maybe niceties. I can be like kind, but I don't want to be like too nice about it. And so I think killing people with kindness is a real thing.

right? You know, but I think we have to find ways that don't automatically overstep our boundaries because that's when I think people who don't have enough boundaries and people who don't set enough boundaries create these people, right? I think there's some accountability somewhere with the people who are around them who never push back and was like, no, like, we're not doing that. And so then they're like, well, if I do this here,

Giselle (01:23:42.126)
Right.

Junae (01:23:46.586)
You know, I could do it over there. My grandmother always used to say, you have to learn to dance at your house before you dance out, right? Dance at your yard before you dance abroad is what she used to say. And like, it's true. Like you need to learn how to act in the parameters here so that when you go out, you're effective, you know, you're helping, you're like the good part of humanity and things like that. We're about to go on forever. We're about to go on forever.

Giselle (01:23:55.214)
Yes, I love that.

Giselle (01:24:11.342)
I agree. That's beautiful. I know. We can just keep talking. We can just keep talking.

Junae (01:24:16.474)
just keep it going so oh my gosh, it's happening! But yeah, it's been really wonderful. I hate to cut it short, but I just don't know where we're gonna end I don't know when it's gonna be like another like stopping point where I'm like, yeah! Giselle, is there anything you want to tell the people or do you?

Giselle (01:24:21.678)
Black women effect unfortunately I'm so sorry.

Giselle (01:24:35.438)
I know.

Junae (01:24:45.242)
anybody you want them to follow, anything you want them to know, any organization they should look out for, or an indie game that they should look out for.

Giselle (01:24:53.902)
Yeah, no, honestly, if you guys aren't familiar, I just hosted for Melanated Game Kitchen. They're a wonderful organization. If you're looking to start anything within games and you're looking to find a sense of community, I'm finding a sense of community within them. So go follow them. I think they do great things. They have a Discord. They have their own website. We just did a game jam. Go check out the Big Bike Game Jam. I think there is some amazing games to play there.

Also, yeah, I guess I'll plug myself, like me too, if you like STEM content, if you, you know, resonated with anything that we said in this episode, I try to talk about a lot of those things online. If you're a fan of anime, cosplay, Gizellium everywhere, it's just my name, I U M But yeah, honestly, like thank you so much for having me. Like this has been amazing. And I hope you guys enjoyed our little, you know, serious level conversations with some comedy layered over the top. But,

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Yeah.

Junae (01:25:49.498)
Okay, one more thing. I want to make a two -way mirror. Will you walk me through that process? Can we, have you ever seen the two -way mirrors that it'll tell you, okay, perfect. So then we will use your like engineering and like STEM skills because there's a mirror that you can go like, hey Google, what time is it? And it'll be like, here's the weather and here's the time. And it'll show like what song is playing.

Giselle (01:26:03.886)
Oooo

Junae (01:26:16.986)
And it's just essentially like some monitors and like a raspberry pie. So like, I would like to do that with you. And like, yeah, we'll like make it a thing. But yeah, Giselle, thank you so much for joining me before I say another thing. It was so lovely having you. I hope y 'all enjoy the bonus content because we are like 26 minutes over time with wonderful amounts of conversation and.

Giselle (01:26:24.334)
Okay.

Giselle (01:26:32.27)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Junae (01:26:42.234)
Until next time, game safely, hug somebody, wash your hands, your butt, your sheets, do all of that. You can never be too clean. Don't get all germaphobe, but please continue game safely, love each other, and clean your butts. Okay. Bye.