Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
You are a business owner who wants to prioritize people and planet over profits (without sacrificing success). That can feel lonely—but you are not alone! Join host Becky Mollenkamp for in-depth conversations with experts and other founders about how to build a more equitable world through entrepreneurship. It’s time to change the business landscape for good!
Becky Mollenkamp: Hi, Chelsea, thanks for being here.
Chelsey Goodan: Hi, my pleasure, thank you.
Becky Mollenkamp: I'm excited to talk about your book, which is called Underestimated: The Wisdom and Power of Teenage Girls, because I just read it over the last couple of days to keep it fresh in my mind, and it's very fresh in my mind. So I have lots of questions about the things you shared in there. Before we get into it, though, I want to start the way I do with everything, which is to have you tell me about your own relationship with feminism.
Chelsey Goodan: Feminism is so important to me. And to me, feminism is not about man-hating or thinking women are better than men or like a lot of the societal projections that are put onto that word. That's not at all how I experience it. I can expand on that, which I think we will likely discuss. But it is for me personally, about just my inherent worth as a human being on the planet that deserves equal rights and opportunities and access and that no one is inherently better than another person. We need to advocate because there is an imbalance in who has access to opportunities, so that advocacy exists in the idea of feminism.
Becky Mollenkamp: If it isn’t intersectional, it isn’t feminist. I know because we previously talked that you feel the same way. I was so pleased to see throughout your book references to people like Bell Hooks and Maya Angelou, Black women who are really important in feminism but often get overlooked. So I love that you did that, and I think we definitely share that philosophy.
Chelsey Goodan: Yeah, I actually often identify as an intersectional feminist. I'll often say that instead. But I found that when I say that from the get-go to a person who doesn't understand the term, it can get more confusing for them. Sometimes I'm just kind of looking for the way into the conversation because we are still dealing with stereotypes slapped onto that word, just real basic ones.
Becky Mollenkamp: Which, yes, brings me to my first question from the book. In the chapter about power, towards the end of the book, you talk about feminism with teenage girls, and one of the things you saw happen again and again is these girls having their fathers or some other man in their life that they love say that feminism is basically hating on men, as you just mentioned. That still says, decades later, this common refrain. It made me think about teenage girls and feminism and how that's evolved. I identified as a feminist at the age of the girls in this book, but it was in the 90s in a different time. I wouldn't have had a clue about intersectional feminism then. I don't think Kimberlé Crenshaw had even coined the phrase yet. I was a basic white feminist in those days. What have you noticed about how girls now have evolved in their relationship with and understanding of feminism?
Chelsey Goodan: I teach an entire workshop for girls about this exact topic. And actually, Kimberly Crenshaw coined it in 1989, but it didn't really populate and become a known thing until what I would call, honestly, what we're in is more of a fourth wave feminism. You and I grew up under a third wave feminism that, you’re right, was way more white feminism. Now, fourth wave has become much more intersectional, and Gen Z is so much better about inclusivity and advocating not just for women of color, but trans women and the full range of, you know, we're not free unless we're all free, right? It has become much more accepted to call yourself a feminist. I would say when we were growing up, it was way more risqué. That said, they are continually shocked by how much pushback they get. Gen Z girls are on social media, where feminism is way more accepted. Then they go and talk to their dad, who is functioning under second wave feminism, thinking it's just a bunch of angry feminists. So there's this huge disconnect. I always teach girls to reference the dictionary definition of feminism or intersectional feminism and say it to their dad, define it as they speak about it. Like, "Well, I'm a feminist because the Cambridge Dictionary defines it as equal rights and opportunities for men and women," you know, like that's a quick summary of it, but you can memorize it yourself. And when the men hear that, they’re always like, okay. Then I always teach the girl to ask, "Do you not believe that?" Then the dad's like, "Well, I mean, that's not really how I see it," and she's like, "That's the dictionary definition, so I'm going to just use that, okay?" Then the guy's all flustered. Oftentimes, the dad is like, okay, I can get on board with that. But if the dad doesn't get on board, what's been really cool and empowering is that the girl says, "I don't care if he does agree with me. That's what I believe," and that she doesn't need her dad to approve or say okay to her calling herself and identifying as an intersectional feminist.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love that. Yeah, it’s our husbands that are still struggling with that definition or understanding. Certainly, that's my experience on social media when I'm out talking about feminism. Although sometimes young men who’ve been radicalized by social media come in with the "you hate all men" thing, mostly it's older men. So I totally understand that.
Chelsey Goodan: I’m a fan of meeting them exactly where they're at. Fortunately, I don’t get particularly triggered when a man pushes back on me. Instead, I just really listen to see what their blocking thing is for them. I ask a lot of questions to figure out what story they're projecting onto it, what narrative, right? Then I address that with them and meet them exactly where they're at. It can be really triggering, especially for a girl with her father, to be like, what? My dad doesn't believe in me? The more I can get them to a place where they just have peace about how they identify and realize they have nothing to prove and don’t need anyone to agree with them, that's when a conversation really happens.
Becky Mollenkamp: I do get triggered. I wish I could say I don't, but I'm not so good at meeting them where they are. I tend to just end up going lower, which is not the best answer. So I'm working on it, but I appreciate that. I think that'll be great because we're going to talk in our bonus conversation for subscribers of the newsletter about your service on the board for A Call to Men, which maybe is part of why you're able to meet those men where they are or why you're so well suited to that work. But we will talk about that in the bonus conversation. So make sure that you subscribe if you want to hear more about getting men on board and helping them change some of these beliefs because it is critically important. It’s just that not everyone's built for that work. So yeah, I appreciate it. Well, OK, so this interview is going to be about your book and the subject of your book, but also a lot more than that, because these listeners are not teenagers, although many of them are probably moms, some to teenagers. So I do think it's important to talk about some of the lessons just for our listeners who are moms to teenagers to think about. I think we also talked about, and we'll get to in a little while, the piece that I think is really interesting because I don't have a teenage girl, but I was a teenage girl—the healing lessons from this for healing our own inner teenage girl. And I want to talk about you as a business owner, as you’ve written this book and all that has been involved in that journey. So we will talk about all of those things too. So if anyone's listening and thinks, I don't have a teenage girl, I don't know if this is for me, I promise there's gonna be a lot inside this for you, so stick around. But first, I want to start with hearing about what made you want to write this book, this topic. I know that you worked with girls, but what made you think these stories and these things need to be told?
Chelsey Goodan: Well, it actually really addresses what you brought up, which is healing your inner teenage girl. What I found is so many of the issues that hold us back in womanhood as adult women—people-pleasing, self-doubt, perfectionism, shame—all of those wounds started in our teenage years. So by moving upstream and addressing not only how we're parenting teenage girls, which the book is very practical in that way, but also how we reparent ourselves or really heal that time of our life and understand what mechanisms made us become people-pleasing in the first place or what mechanisms created a habit where we make ourselves small and don’t voice our opinions in a bigger, louder way and claim our power in the world as adult women. Part of it was what the girls were telling me. I heavily involved teenage girls in the process—they helped edit, they gave quotes, they were there with me every step. The things they were struggling with are the same things we're all still struggling with. I was like, my gosh, what if we didn't have to? What if we started earlier? What kind of women would we have in the future? What type of leaders would we have that would be so much more empowered? So that was a huge motivation too.
Becky Mollenkamp: And I will be asking a question exactly about that because I was like, this book, really, you could just take off the "teenage girls" and just say this is a book for women too, because it really is. Nothing substantially changes, which is sort of sad. But also, it's nice because there's so much in there for us. It makes me wonder, have you read Why Does Patriarchy Persist by Carol Gilligan and Naomi Snyder? They talk about the psychology of patriarchy and how we are indoctrinated into it as people and how psychologically we end up indoctrinated. For boys, there's like this early round that happens around five to seven, which I've watched with my own son. It's kind of when they start to go into school and learn they're not supposed to cry and have to be strong. For girls, the indoctrination tends to happen a little later, basically with puberty. With the dawn of puberty and as their bodies begin to change, they really begin to learn the message that they are supposed to show up in the world a certain way—all those things you mentioned: people-pleasing, caretaking, being timid, quiet, small. And that all starts to happen right before the teenage years. So what you're talking about aligns with the psychology of it, which is that we start to get those messages right when our bodies begin to change. So you're talking to girls who are kind of in that phase. They're maybe a little older. What was the age range of the girls you were talking to for the book?
Chelsey Goodan: Mostly high school, but I definitely have middle school girls. Heck, it was probably 12 to 20 even. And these are long-term relationships too. This is not just doing a one quick off interview where I barely know the girl.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, and that 12, I mean, that's really when they’re really starting to get indoctrinated into this. So what were the stereotypes that they are feeling about them?
Chelsey Goodan: Well, we all know these stereotypes, right? When people have a baby girl instead of a baby boy, the first thing they often hear is, "Just wait until she's a teenager. You're in for it," right? It's this real negative perception that she's going to be emotional and dramatic and crazy and mean. I mean, the amount of people that have said to me, "My gosh, how could you write about teenage girls? They're so mean." And I'm like, geez, that is not a nice thing to say if you think about it. And the girls hear that, and they absorb it. Girls did not come out of the womb mean; they confronted a society that is not particularly safe or kind. If anything, it's quite judgmental and criticizing to them, and they set up walls. So yeah, there’s a certain degree of protection that they've had to integrate into their lives, but once those walls come down, my gosh, they’re just the best. They’re full of enthusiasm and love and passion and goodness, and they want to help people, and that's who they really are.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, you talk about them being emotional a lot too, like being perceived as or being called emotional in a bad way. When we hear that word "emotional," especially when applied to women and when applied to men, the word is fraught with negative connotations. We are not supposed to be emotional; we're supposed to be stoic, brave, and strong, and being emotional doesn’t make you strong. All of these horrible stereotypes. But I love that you spell out that the emotional piece is the fact that they are passionate, that they care, that they aren’t afraid to express. The word "emotional" we perceive as so negative, but really the things that we’re describing are things that we should really be honoring in all people, not just teenage girls, but all of us.
Chelsey Goodan: Exactly. Well, I always say that the first chapter is about feelings. That’s where I start. And I always say, you know, they say teenage girls have big feelings. Adults have big feelings too. We just got really good and trained, indoctrinated, as you say, to squash and suppress and stuff them deep down inside of us until we all deal with them in therapy in midlife. It’s so fascinating to see a teenage girl just actually express it in the moment and process it and let the emotion pass through her and be done with it. And there’s a lot to be said when you just support someone in that space and you’re like, "Yeah, that sucks," instead of trying to jump in and fix it and slap positivity really quickly on it because you're uncomfortable or avoid it altogether and power through. We have all these coping mechanisms that we think are the right thing because if we feel a negative emotion, that must be awful, right? Whether it’s disappointment or frustration or anger, we’re taught to just try to not feel those. But those are completely and utterly normal human emotions. And if you block them, that does more harm than actually acknowledging them, your full humanity, and being like, "Yeah, I’m bummed out right now."
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah. And you know, what's interesting is I remember being a teenage girl, even though it feels like eons ago, but I do remember the experience. One of the things I remember, and I’m sure you've heard this from all the girls you talk with: "I’m not going to be like my mom when I grow up. I’m not going to do this. I would never do this to my daughter when I grow up. I’m going to remember this, and I’m going to know how to talk to her and listen to her and be there for her and support her," and all of that. Then I look and I read the chapter about beauty and the ways that younger girls dress. It immediately takes me to my nieces who I adore. They are brave, smart, outspoken, wonderful young feminists who are now 18—my God, they’re becoming adults. But they've been teenagers, and I can feel all that same stuff come up—that discomfort of like, I can't believe she’s wearing that. Maybe that’s not the right thing to wear again because of the ways that men show up in the world. Rather than it being about how do men change, it's like this instinct to protect our daughters, right? That shows up. So much of even the stuff around not showing emotions, or so many of the things that we talk about, we are doing to our daughters in a protective way. We feel like we are, yet we’re causing harm. What did this book show you or make you think about how we go from those teenage girls ourselves who swear we'll never be that way into moms who start doing the same things to our daughters?
Chelsey Goodan: You covered so many good things here. The harm that’s done is shame. That’s what happens. The way girls perceive commentary on their clothes—I’m going to even use the word commentary to lighten it because criticism and judgment happen big time, right?—even commentary, they receive it in a shameful, judgy way that does harm and harms their relationship to their looks, beauty, worth, and body. I have actually started to take a pretty big stance on just, we do not comment on girls’ bodies. We do not comment on their looks. We don't comment on their clothes, which takes a lot of release. I know it’s out of the intention of protecting, like you said. The amount that I have been talking about this topic within interviews and so on, I always say, what if instead of spending 90% of our time talking about whether that girl should wear it or not, we spent all that time talking about how we raise our boys, right? And how we raise them to control their urges. They’re very capable of handling themselves and not sexualizing and objectifying girls, but we don't put any energy into teaching them that. Only 11 states in their sex education curriculum require that consent be taught. We’re failing our boys too—they're not getting the right education.
Becky Mollenkamp: I didn’t know that until I read that stat in the book, and I was like, my gosh, that is alarming as a mom of a boy. I’ve been teaching him consent since he was born, but it terrifies me that that’s not part of the sex ed curriculum as standard.
Chelsey Goodan: Right, and so instead we put all the blame, all the responsibility, all the judgment on the girl's shoulders, and she feels it. I mean, don't they tell me that they feel slut-shamed for every little thing that they do? I mean, I have a sexuality chapter too because there’s also a space that’s wildly unexplored for girls to safely explore what their sexuality is. Because right now they cannot do anything right, right? It is either way too sexy, or it’s completely closed down and shut off and full of fear and shame, right? There’s very little middle ground, and the poor girls are trying to explore it and talk about it in a safe way, but there’s no space to do it.
Becky Mollenkamp: Yeah, it makes you think of the scene in Barbie, right? Where it's like you have to be pretty and sexy, but not too sexy. You have to be smart, but not too smart. All of that balancing act that you can't win at, and it feels horrible.
Chelsey Goodan: Back to your idea about how the moms can show up and break that cycle. What I have found is that when we are triggered, I am very focused on a parent healing their own inner teenage girl because the only thing in their control and power is their own healing. As much as a parent, and I've seen it, wants to control their daughter, which is that urge to protect or teach, it just has a backlash, right? It does the opposite; it’s not effective, is what I see. The girls shut down, close you out, close off from actually connecting, and do things instead in secret, hiding, and in shame. That is the dynamic I see when you have that urge to control. Instead, when that trigger comes up, you actually ask yourself the questions like, why is it uncomfortable for me to talk about sexuality with my daughter? Why is it uncomfortable to me that she's wearing this outfit? Then approach her with genuine curiosity, like, "How does that outfit make you feel? Why do you want to wear it?" with a true tone of no judgment. It’s just like, okay, cool, interesting. I hadn’t seen it from that perspective. Just so she doesn't feel judged, that's what creates a safe space for her to be more honest with you, to listen to your input, but you have to be valuing her voice in the conversation first and seeking to understand first. When she feels that type of respect, then she’s way more open to a conversation.
Becky Mollenkamp: For the moms of teenage girls or young girls who are going to become teenage girls, I think there's so much great information in here about creating safe spaces, how to listen, how not to judge, how to, as difficult as it is—and I was even thinking about this with my son today. I know it’s not a teenage girl, but my eight-year-old son was feeling sad about something. I wanted to be like, "Tell me, tell me what it is," and almost force it out of him. It doesn’t work. All that that does is start to shut him down more and make him feel like he can't come to me. There was such great advice in the book that made me think of like, no, just saying, "I see that you feel you're upset. Can I give you a hug?" And I did, and he was so happy with that. Just that reminder that if you want to chat, I’m in my office—even though I know you’re like, "Don't even add that pressure to feel like they have to come and talk to you." Let them come to you on their own by building that genuine trust of just, "I see how you're feeling, that's valid and real," and giving that space. It’s so hard to do!
Chelsey Goodan: Yeah. One practical tool to lean on is to reflect back the exact words that they used, right? If they say, "I'm just feeling bummed out," say, "Yeah, I get why you're bummed out." Just actually say the exact words they said, because then they feel heard and understood. And I will, with follow-up, if you do want to, it's always phrasing as a question, right? Like, "How can I support you in this? What do you need right now?" Particularly for girls, they're not asked that a lot, and they need to develop that mechanism of checking in and asking themselves, "What do I need right now?" Often parents are frustrated because they're like, "Well, she says, 'I don't know.'" And I'm like, yeah, because she hasn't been given a lot of space to go figure it out and actually check in and be like, "Wait, what do I need?" So I always say when a girl says, "I don't know," I'm like, "Okay, great. Take some time, I’ll ask again in a week or two. I really trust that you're gonna be able to think about this and figure out some things that you need or what type of support you might need. I trust you to figure that out for yourself." Then they’re like, my gosh, my parent trusts me. And I see the girls rise to the occasion.
Becky Mollenkamp: We just don’t give them the opportunity. Here’s the difference, I think, that happens between being a teenager and then becoming the mom of a teenager: When you're a teenager, you don't understand. Your parents tell you, but you just don't understand what it's like to be a parent, right? And that desire, that need to protect your child, and how that can get so twisted in ways that then end up causing harm where you certainly, like, as a teenager, we sort of think our parents are being malicious in the harm. And the truth is, most of the time, it’s not malicious. We’re just trying so hard to protect our kids because we don’t want to see them hurt. We don’t want to see the world hurt them. And so it's like, you mess up, and you lose sight of who you want to be in this world. And suddenly you're like, my God, how did I become my mom? When I swore when I was 13, 14, I would never do it. And it just happens. It’s so hard, but this book helps.
Chelsey Goodan: Well, thank you. And the choice chapter addresses that too—just how giving your girl a lot of agency. Everyone wants girls to be confident, right? We're all about confidence, confidence. What it is, is self-trust. They need to trust their own thoughts, trust their own voice, trust their own decisions, but they need the space to be given the choice, to make a choice that may be good or bad, and one that you may or may not agree with. What I have found when it is a choice that’s maybe not the best choice or the one you thought of, they learn from it so much more thoroughly because it was their choice in the first place. So say it doesn't go exactly right, they’re like, whoa, it’s their mistake to learn from rather than us kind of manipulating or buffering their bad choices all the time. There’s no learning and growth space for them. So when they're out in the real world, out in college, and they haven’t had enough space to develop self-trust, there's a lot that I see play out when that hasn’t happened.
Becky Mollenkamp: In a minute, I want to get to healing your inner teen because I think all of us have experienced the ways it doesn’t happen, right? For ourselves, and we don’t develop that self-trust. But I want to ask about social media really quickly because I know I saw an interview or somewhere where you said that was the number one thing people ask you about with teen girls is social media. We can all imagine the ways that would make it harder to be a teen than when we were teens, having to live in this landscape that exists now. But are there any ways that it helps? Or that girls are like, they don’t know any different, but are there things you hear from them that make you think, it’s not so bad?
Chelsey Goodan: Well, I so appreciate that question. Yes, because we are in an era right now where parents in particular and adults want to villainize social media and make it the source of all the problems, right? And I, of course, right now, officially going to say, of course, there are harmful effects to social media, right? And it is not going anywhere. It is here to stay in a big way. And we have to acknowledge that. Solution-oriented thinking actually empowers the girl herself to make healthy decisions for herself, or any teenager. That’s the space I'm interested in. When we do fear, fear, fear, victimhood, victimhood, she is shut down and does become a victim to social media, right? Because she's not seen another way, how she can make active choices. There are choices. So when you say, are there positive things, first of all, plenty of girls that I know make healthy choices with social media. They put their phone away at night, not because anyone forced them to or told them to. They don’t follow certain accounts that make them not feel good about themselves. They’re actively evaluating the social media that they intake. And if anything, I find teenage girls are way more complex about how they talk about it, whereas the parents are really simplified, like, "My gosh, that post is making her feel awful about her body." They very much simplify the connection to it. So I love engaging in depth-filled conversations with girls where I bring up posts. I’m like, "What do you think of that? What does that communicate?" I’m getting inside their head about it. But in terms of positive things, girls have had—or all teenagers have had—so much more access to mental health and psychology ideas. That is all over social media, and they love it. Gen Z loves it. They have had so much more access to social justice issues, climate change, racial justice, feminism. The amount of girls that have sent me a TikTok video about feminism—it brings me such joy. They just want somebody to relate to about it and say, "Yeah, that’s cool. I feel that way too." So there’s a lot of good potential if you actively engage. I always talk to a girl about how to affect the algorithm for themselves. Based on what they like and what they save, you can actually have an active choice in what the algorithm is feeding you. And I know that sounds a little bit controversial, what I'm saying because there's plenty of research showing the harmful effects, right? I hear it. And I've seen girls in the active trenches change the story. So there’s that side of it.
Becky Mollenkamp: Well, and there’s advice that I think is valid for all of us to hear, because if your social media feed is making you feel shitty about yourself, if your social media feed is making you constantly compare, criticize, judge others, judge yourself, making you feel attacked, whatever, minimize it. Check what you're doing. What are you interacting with? What are you engaging with? Because it can be beautiful. I mean, my—especially TikTok—I have found really scarily has the algorithm thing figured out. And, you know, mine's filled with queer love and wonderful feminist rants and lots of stuff that feels like it would satisfy my life and make my life better and bring me pleasure. So yeah, it's totally possible. And I think it's so important. It’s funny because you said, too, that they’re not only just learning about feminism, they’re sharing about it because I see them, especially on my TikTok. Younger and younger, I’m learning so much from young feminists in college and even younger, mostly college by the time I'm seeing them, but that know so much. And your last chapter of the book is called "Liberation," and there are quotes from girls talking about liberation from the systems that hold us back. I didn't understand anything about systemic issues in high school or junior high. I had to take a women’s studies course in college to get to that place, you know? So I do think there’s just so much positive that we don’t talk about because we get so focused on the negative. And I think for parents, it's important for us to think about what could be positive here because like you said, it’s not going away. And how do we help influence more of the positive instead of fixating on the negative?
Chelsey Goodan: Gosh, and you're right. They all know about systems, oppressive systems. They all know about—first of all, you know all the stats about anxiety being so high for teenage girls, right? Part of me has come to wonder, like, I don't think I knew that word in high school. I totally had anxiety, but I couldn't name it. Maybe just all the girls finally have a word to name what they're feeling, right? We have a long history of maybe women being a bit anxious because we live in a patriarchy that's not that great. So, and also by the way, them knowing the term patriarchy, right? Like I could go on and on. Their actual vocabulary is bigger because of social media. And then they also feel powerful. And I know a lot of people would quickly dismiss that as like, "Stupid social media, they think they just want to be an influencer." The truth is, influencers are somewhat powerful. We actually have to start acknowledging that and understand that there are a lot of people who came from environments that never would have had a microphone before in our old system, in our history, never would have had such quick access to a voice and to a microphone. People who have been historically oppressed now have a way to amplify their message and their voice. I mean, that’s really interesting and cool. We could shine light on what that space looks like because they see it as a source of power lots of times.
Becky Mollenkamp: Gosh, and that goes to what you were saying about just asking, "What is it that you like about being an influencer?" Because if we just took time to listen, you might hear them say, "I love having a voice."
Chelsey Goodan: I've asked it many times and that’s usually what they say.
Becky Mollenkamp: How many of us women feel that, right? We want that too because we've been made to feel like our voices need to be so small that many of us can't even hear them anymore. So to hear girls, when we minimize what it is that they're doing, it is harmful to them.
Chelsey Goodan: We dismiss it as superficial. We love to say it’s vanity and superficial. But really the issue is the judgment too, right? Like they feel so judged, and therefore, yeah, they’re going to shut you out. I mean, girls want to be a part of the conversation. They want to have a voice. They want to be respected, right? So that’s why that type of conversation matters. Even if you don't agree with the answer, letting her have a voice to give an answer is important.
Becky Mollenkamp: That to me feels like—and now let's get into healing our own teenage girl—because when we are passing our shame onto them by dismissing, diminishing, devaluing them, and making everything that they're into feel frivolous and silly, we're really doing it to ourselves too, right? Because we're reinforcing those messages that were given to us. Because if it’s true for them, it’s true for us too. And if it’s true for us, then it must be true for them, or we need it to be true for them. Because if it’s not true for them, then what does it say about us? It causes this cognitive dissonance of like, well, if it’s not silly and frivolous for you to use your voice or to feel that way, then what's going on? Why am I still feeling that way? This doesn't make sense. It’s almost like we do it because we need it to make sense for ourselves, because it doesn't.
Chelsey Goodan: I know, it’s our own baggage, right? It’s our own wounds that we project onto not only daughters, kids, and teenage girls, but everyone around us. The teenage girls themselves tell me, "This is not my story. That’s not how I see it. That’s not how I live it. That’s not how I experience it." And because there is a big generational gap now, right? With the advent of technology and social media, there’s a bigger generational gap in ways that parents really don’t understand the things, their world in that way. So yeah, we project a lot of stories onto people, and we want to make it true for them because it’s our own baggage.
Becky Mollenkamp: We do. And so much of what you talk about in the book—things like choice and consent, pleasure without shame. I love the, I think it was that chapter that started with adrienne maree brown's quote because there’s nobody better to talk about pleasure than adrienne maree brown. And perfectionism and self-doubt and all of these things that you talk about are all things that we either want or want to solve for ourselves as adult women. I know very few adult women who don't feel some shame or guilt about pleasure. And I don't mean just sexual pleasure, but in any way of just enjoying their life, right? Because we’re so conditioned to care for others and please everyone else.
Chelsey Goodan: Yes, we have to make an excuse for it. We have to rationalize a vacation, right? I talk about it in the sexuality chapter—there’s so much fear-based everything around this topic. Words like STD, rape, or teen pregnancy, those are scary words. Also, I see just as much fear around words like orgasm, clitoris, and pleasure. The idea that a girl should have sexual pleasure? People are like, I can't believe you're talking about that. And it’s wild because we do that for boys. The media completely permissions boys. That’s what sexuality is for them—it’s pleasure-focused. What is this? It has so much to do with the root of our power and how we’ve been minimized, controlled, and so many stories have been told about our sexuality that we all adopt, believe, and integrate into our own minds. It’s that one to unwrap to do your own healing journey around your relationship to sexuality and your body. That’s where the revolution starts.
Becky Mollenkamp: For sure, that is huge. And like I said, it goes beyond even that part too, although I think that is so huge and so important. But all of it, like just rest—the fact that we deserve rest and being able to take that rest without guilt. I mean, even when I see women who do engage in something pleasurable, there’s this guilt that comes along. Even if they can get past the shame, then they get into the guilt of, "I should be doing something else. Does this mean I don't care about other people because I'm prioritizing myself? I’m selfish."
Chelsey Goodan: Yes, that’s another huge pattern I found is how much we indoctrinate girls into thinking that they need to be humble and selfless and put everyone else's needs before their own. They’re so scared of having an ego or being thought of as arrogant. I have a quote in the book of a girl being like, we don’t have some epidemic of girls with big egos or women. Actually, we have an epidemic of women making themselves too small. What is this narrative of selflessness versus selfish? I’ve been in this space—gosh, this has been a hard space because my book has done so well, and I’m sharing big successful things on social media that have happened for me. And I see it flare up for me in a way that I’m like, my gosh, people are gonna think I’m bragging. People are gonna think I’m promoting myself. I’m thinking, wait, I’m telling girls that they should be doing this in the world. I need to model for them what it looks like to live a big life, to live a bold life, to own my success because my heart is in the right place. This is about helping all women. This isn't about me making money or some other pursuit. And by the way, even the fact that I have to make that excuse is so interesting, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: I was gonna say, because even if it is, that’s okay.
Chelsey Goodan: Men, they have permission to claim their success in any way, whether it’s just financial or whatever it might be, right?
Becky Mollenkamp: For the moms listening, this is important because I have found in my own coaching work with my clients, so often women are really reluctant to make these big kinds of changes for themselves. But as soon as you can frame it in a way where it's like, what is it that you're modeling for your child? What is the experience you want your child to have? What chains are you trying to break? These lineage things that have been passed on from generation after generation of women to women to women—what is it that you want to change? How can you do that by modeling? What does it look like? Then suddenly women are able to step into their power more to say, if I can’t do it for me, I'm sure as hell going to do it for her because I want to stop this. I hate that it takes that. I hate that it takes that for women, but whatever it takes because we do need to both step into our power, to use our voice, to live a big life. I love that you said "live a big life." Of course we do. So what has this book, this experience of being in a relationship with all of these teen girls, digesting that in a way of writing this book and now being out there and talking about it, not just with teen girls, but with women—what is it teaching you about your own inner teen girl, and how is it changing you now as an adult woman?
Chelsey Goodan: I mean, it’s happened so fast, the upleveling of it. The last six months have been so insane from the support from Oprah Daily and Hello Sunshine. These massive entities have come to support me in a way that I went like zero to 10. I have had to uplevel my own sense of power and responsibility with that, of my own voice. What I have to say is important; people are responding to it. And it is having incredible ripple effects. Hearing women across the country in DMs or messages on the website and all sorts of things about how it’s helping them and how it’s impacting them or changing their relationship with their daughter. Realizing that the ripple effect of me just using my voice bravely, unapologetically, has an impact. Then owning it and seeing it out loud and telling people that that’s what’s happening so that I can continue doing that, so I continue getting speaking engagements or being put on bigger platforms. It has created a lot of discomfort for me because of this issue of self-promotion. I think everyone tries to put women in this box so fast or we put ourselves in it, like we just wanna promote ourselves. And that's—I don’t know, I would love to know your thoughts on that because I've been grappling with that. That’s not my intention, that's not what it’s about for me. But I have this fear around it being that. So that’s been a block for me that’s come up. I’m telling you in real-time.
Becky Mollenkamp: I'll just quickly step in to say that, of course, because I think that we are so conditioned that anything about ourselves is selfish. It’s always framed that way. I rarely hear boys and men being called selfish for taking care of themselves, for actions that they're doing that are for them. Men go golfing and they're not being called selfish. They’re just like going out golfing. A woman is like, "I’m going to go do something for half an hour by myself," and it's like, "That's so selfish." So I think, of course, anything that shines a light on ourselves makes us uncomfortable. But I think it is so important for you to do it because of that very reason. I just have never experienced men grappling with these same issues at the level that women do. There are individual men, and sometimes they have these little flare-ups and things happen, but I’ve never had a client, and my clients are almost all women, who isn’t uncomfortable with the spotlight, with attention, with taking time for herself. I’ve had male clients too, and those things just don't come up, ever. So I don’t think it’s unusual that you feel that way. I think that, first of all, it wouldn’t matter if you are doing this solely for money. It wouldn’t matter, right? But the fact that you aren’t, it’s like the piece that I think is so important is, again, that role modeling because you can't—how do you write a book that’s telling us to quit underestimating girls and then you show up underestimating yourself?
Chelsey Goodan: Right, and I'm doing it. I'm doing the thing. I am pushing through the discomfort. And I will also say too, it’s fear of judgment that holds women back because that's really the block, right? Like I'm just a little scared that I’m going to get judged. And I still do it, right? I still push through because that's what I'm putting out there. But I see it not only with the girls, but everyone. Everyone is just so scared of being judged. And guess what? We are judgy.
Becky Mollenkamp: You will be judged because you're doing something that other women haven't allowed themselves to do. And again, it’s that projection thing of our own baggage. Rather than dealing with my own baggage, it's a lot easier just to project out on you and judge you because then I don't have to judge myself for not doing the thing.
Chelsey Goodan: This pool of everyone's triggers coming at me, right? And I just have to deal with that and do what's right for me and push forward. I am trying to heal the world in the judgment category. That’s what I speak on a lot about. I think if we can create an environment—same idea too of girls supporting girls, women supporting women—where instead we just celebrate each other. We don't evaluate, we don't say, "Well, she should have done this or she should be more like this or she should be wearing this." No shoulds. “Thank you, you're doing this for all women and making space for all of us." That’s the energy I'm trying to put out there.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love it, and it's needed. And it would be unrealistic and a lie to say that you won’t get judgment. You will. There are going to be women, especially, who will judge you. So we have to be able to say, I'm going to do it anyway. And that’s the part I think that’s so hard because it’d be one thing if we could say, "No, no, no, no one's going to judge you." But then the first time you're judged, and you will be, it will shut you down. So you have to go into it knowing, yeah, I'm going to get judged, and I'm going to do it anyway.
Chelsey Goodan: Exactly. I have radical acceptance around it. And then I make sure I'm really centered and grounded on my own integrity, on what my intention is, why I'm doing this. I have to stay centered on that or you get caught up in all these other narratives so fast.
Becky Mollenkamp: And finding and cultivating communities with other women who have done their own healing work, who have healed their teenage girls by reading this book, reading other things so that they are able to be there with you and support you in the way that you're looking for. I think it’s so important to have that. I'm going to guess teenage girls, I don't remember this in the book, so, but you may have covered it, but I'm going to guess—you did talk about friends, that’s right.
Chelsey Goodan: So true.
Becky Mollenkamp: There was a chapter on friendship. So that’s probably where this is coming from. I just think like girls get it. They get that they need that support network. And we sometimes lose sight of that as adults, but we need it too.
Chelsey Goodan: Oh my gosh! I’m all about how teenage girls have that ride-or-die type of friendship style that’s like, "I got you!" They hold each other, they sob in each other's arms, they are there for the mess. They call each other about things. It's the art of the slumber party. I talk about how now I've integrated adult lady slumber parties because when you have a full 24 hours, you get real with your friends and your community. You actually share your mess, you feel the type of support you need. Instead, as adults, what happens is we get caught up in these interactions that are really like a quick one-hour dinner where it’s like, "How are you? How are you?" And we just kind of say the details and facts of life or our accomplishments or something. We're not actually saying, "This has been awful. I need support around this." I think we have so much to learn from teenage girl friendships. And it’s funny because everyone loves to talk about the mean girl aspect. That is ending. We’re actually moving out of that time. Yes, it still exists because we're messy, imperfect humans, but Gen Z girls know that girls are supposed to be supporting girls. That wasn’t necessarily the same messaging we got when we were younger. Now, I mean, you can see it on social media posts—how they amp each other up in the comments. They’re like, "Yeah, girl!" They're so full of exclamation points. And I'm like, I love it when they comment on my posts. I love it.
Becky Mollenkamp: My nieces do that for me too, and it feels like a celebrity has commented on something when your teenage nieces are like, "That’s amazing, you’re awesome." I'm like, "My gosh, I feel really great." I think this may also be why I watch so many teenage girl friendship TV shows and movies because I think I'm healing some of that for myself too. We had that when we were young, but we lost it, and trying to refine that is really—it’s so hard to make real deep, meaningful friendships as an adult because it becomes about your kids and their parents, their friends' parents. It becomes more like friendships of convenience or necessity versus who you would really bond with.
Chelsey Goodan: Yeah, you have to be so intentional. I'm really intentional in that. I'll say, "Hey, I'm pursuing you as a friend." Then I share with them something vulnerable, invite them into the same space, and tell them. I really say it out loud when I want a new vulnerable friendship so that they feel safe and they're like, okay, that's what she actually wants. Wait, I want that too. Everyone is insecure about it, honestly.
Becky Mollenkamp: They're all looking for friends, and everyone's afraid to take that first step. It’s like dating. It’s such a weird experience. But I want to go behind some of the stuff about your business and your own experience, especially now, because if I'm not mistaken, this is your first book, right? You’re a first-time book author. So what was the experience like of writing it, finding a publisher, getting it to print? What was that like for you? I don’t know very many women listening to this who probably don’t have a book in their head too.
Chelsey Goodan: Yes. Almost every woman who owns a business I've ever met has some book or many that they want to write, but it feels overwhelming and scary and just so big. So how did you bring this to life?
Chelsey Goodan: I'm happy to share. I will say I had some added benefits that I live in Los Angeles and that I'd been working in the entertainment industry. So while I was tutoring and mentoring, I was also screenwriting, writing movies, and I would option them. None got made, so I was in the writing world of LA. When you live in LA, you meet a lot of people and make friends with a lot of people that have connections and so on. So I had friends who were authors already, so I'm really thankful for that kind of guidance I got from them. I'm trying to continue the cycle and give guidance to women however I can to help them. But some of the best advice I got was to write a lot of the book first. I know a lot of people want to write a proposal because then you'll be paid to write the full book. What it was is that you don’t really know what book is inside you until you start writing it. What happens is when you do a proposal first, it's a different type of brain. It’s a pitching, selling type of brain, whereas you just sitting down and starting to write the book of your soul and your dreams, there’s so much more authenticity and creativity that comes from that generating starting point. You learn what it is you're supposed to even be selling. If I had gone straight to the proposal, I think I would have sold something different than what would have come out of me. That’s a problem, a big issue. Whereas because I had a full first draft of the book, when I went to get an agent, she helped me do the proposal, and then she took that proposal out to publishers. I went the traditional route and went out to publishers. It was actually very exciting. We took meetings. I ended up getting a preempt offer before a bidding war. It was wild. I had a dream come true situation. But I think it was a lot to do with the fact that my initial—I’m going to use kind of a woo word—vibration that I put into that book was my pure heart and soul. I think because of that, everyone has felt that. The agent, the publisher, the audience, the readers now—it has not been diluted and controlled. The publisher knew what they were buying, and then I stayed true to it through the entire editing process. I was like, "Nope, you guys all know I'm very quirky. This is who I am, that's what you bought." They were like, "Yeah, yeah." Instead of them putting what they think it should be or this audience stuff. I think there’s an authenticity that’s really helped. Getting the agent, I got through just having friends who had agents, so that's one real specific spot I benefited. They sent it on to their agents, and I took meetings and really liked one. I know that's usually one of the hardest first steps for people, so I don't mean to create levity around it. Through the editing process, which is really intense, that is where you need to make sure you are so grounded in your vision and your voice. You cannot see everything. You 100% need an editor, okay? My editor 100% made the book better. I definitely pushed back on some stuff that I was like, "No, I know that's important. It's important why I'm writing it." Thank heaven I did because it's something that has resonated for so many women. Thank heaven I was on my own personal journey of really having a lot of self-worth in my own voice and what I had to say to the world to be ready for those types of conversations.
Becky Mollenkamp: Then comes the promotion piece of this, which when we first talked, you were just starting that journey. Now you're really deep in the promotional piece of this because I think it had just come out when we first talked, and I was like, let's hold off and do the interview a little later because I want to talk about that experience. At the time, you were talking about there may be something with Hello Sunshine, I don't know. That's happened. You've had so much happen. You were on the Today Show with Hoda and Jenna. You’ve been on Hello Sunshine, both on their YouTube channel with a series and on the Bright Side podcast. You mentioned the Oprah Daily thing. What has that experience been like? I would assume it's overwhelming, but also challenging, like you were talking about earlier.
Chelsey Goodan: I had Time Magazine, Richard Branson posted about the book—crazy stuff. So I would say the promotion of it has been... Thankfully, I'm an extrovert. I really like talking about things. I was a theater kid growing up, so I can go on the news and speak well. I think that's a really added benefit for an author. Most authors don't have that. I would say my publisher really learned that about me early on and invested in me on the publicity marketing side. I know a lot of authors like to complain about their publisher not investing in publicity marketing. I'm going to share something about believing in myself. A year ahead of time, they kept mentioning doing a book trailer. They were saying it kind of casually, and I was like, "Wait, do I need this?" I was like, "I can be in New York. I'll come to New York. I have tons of things to do in New York." They were like, "Wait, really? You’d do that?" I paid for my own ticket to go out to New York. I did a few other things while I was out there, but we filmed this book trailer, and they actually have a studio for it and everything. It was awesome. They were like, "What? We can use it to pitch this, they can use that." It was me believing in how I could help. I would ask the team, "What do you need to make this a success? How can I serve that vision?" Because of that, they ended up investing in a media lunch where we invited media to attend. That’s where I made a lot of contacts that helped a lot of what happened. So there are a lot of early steps of you listening, believing in yourself, and making things happen yourself. A lot of times it was me making an introduction or my own initiation, but we all worked as a team for the larger vision.
Becky Mollenkamp: That’s so great to think about the fact that some of what you said, obviously, there is privilege and luck and all of that in that, but there are lessons to be learned for people. So much of it sounds like believe in yourself, trust—it goes back to the book—self-trust and believing that you have to believe in what you're putting out, the product you're putting out fiercely, and also believe in yourself enough to think, I can make things happen for myself too. There’s always this "build it and they will come" thing, but also sometimes you have to get out there and do things and challenge yourself in ways that can feel probably very scary. I'm assuming that some of this has involved you having to really stretch yourself.
Chelsey Goodan: Yes, things I've never done before. I mean, the first time I was on national TV was the Today Show with Jenna, right? I could go on and on. The first time I gave a big talk on teenage girls was on Necker Island with Richard Branson there. The first time I did a PowerPoint about it was that. A lot of times my firsts are my biggest things, and I have to truly believe that I can do it. That’s self-efficacy that’s so important. And then also investing in myself. You rightly acknowledged that there’s privilege, but it’s not like I had a ton of money. I was an academic tutor. Me paying for that ticket, I was investing in myself. That action, that investment has created, expanded, and multiplied in the way that I had hoped and envisioned. So I took risks big time.
Becky Mollenkamp: I'm watching our time, and I'm going to finish here because I know we are getting close to an hour. So you in addition to this stuff—the teenage girls, which is taking up probably most of your time lately because you're full in promotion mode—you also do corporate work, which is not just about talking about teenage girls because you go in and teach communication strategies. It’s similar to what’s in the book, ultimately, because it’s about helping people feel seen, heard, understood, valued, and celebrated, as you say on your website. So that’s obviously what teen girls are looking for and so much of the message in here, but it translates well beyond that. So if you could just quickly tell me a little bit about the corporate work where you're going in and speaking and giving teaching on these things for corporate clients. What are some lessons that our founder listeners might pull from that about what you teach?
Chelsey Goodan: Yeah, my gosh, I love this space because I won over one of the hardest groups, right? Teenage girls are one of the hardest groups to connect with. So those practical tools, you're right, can be transferred into a leadership space, like how a leader motivates their team and makes them do their best work and want to be a part of that company and feel inspired. It has a lot to do with how we affirm as a leader, how we affirm our team. Because lots of times we just expect them to get that thing done and get it done well and on time. But just by saying, "Hey, I really noticed how you executed that project and did it," and you compliment them with a lot of specificity. The compliments chapter of the book really breaks that down on how to do that. That’s what I do in the corporate space is I talk about how you affirm your team so they feel seen, heard, and listened to. You invite their voice into conversations, which creates psychological safety, which is something that corporate spaces really need. There’s a lot of stats to show how when an employee feels psychological safety in a work environment, they do so much better work. That’s usually them sometimes saying, "Hey, this isn’t working for me," and a leader being like, "You know what? Yeah, you're right. We could do better at that." And that they would feel safe to bring it up where they're not gonna be shut down. They’re going to be heard, listened to, valued, and respected. And then affirming like, "Hey, that was a smart idea, right? We hadn’t thought of that. Thank you for helping us implement it." It’s that invitation rather than a top-down mentality of, "You do what I tell you to do." No one’s empowered in that environment.
Becky Mollenkamp: To go back to the book one last time, and to wrap it up here—it’s the same thing for parents. We have to remember that we are not the CEOs of our children, and that they are full humans from the moment they’re born, not just when they are 18. From the moment they’re born, they’re full humans with their own feelings, their own brains, and their own ability to reason. Yes, they have much to develop, and we’re there to help with that. But we’re not there to just top-down be dictators to our children. That’s the same for CEOs. Yes, there are power dynamics in play in both relationships. But we have to think about how do I earn respect versus demand respect? That’s true whether it’s your child or your employee. I love it. I was looking at it like CEOs, but as you read the book, it's like, yeah. That’s again why I would say this book is—it’s about teenage girls, but the truth is it’s just about being human. It’s about respecting, learning from, valuing, caring about, and celebrating humans. There’s so much in there for ourselves. You can read it and think about how this relates to you, how it relates to you with your staff, how it relates to you with your child, how it relates to you with just the world around you. There’s so much in there that I think is just universal about being human. So thank you so much for sharing that. Before we go, I always ask for a resource. I think it’s easy: Underestimated: The Wisdom and Power of Teenage Girls—your book.
Chelsey Goodan: Well, and on the website too, I have a book club guide that you can get for free. It’s such a good book club book, you know, for mom book clubs or whatever it might be. That guide is fun—it has good, helpful talking points per chapter, helpful talking points.
Becky Mollenkamp: Perfect. I will link to that then. Thank you for that resource. What is a nonprofit or organization that’s doing good work in the world that you'd like to highlight?
Chelsey Goodan: We’re going to talk about A Call to Men for your newsletter extra piece, but that's about getting men and boys behind the cause of educating around healthy manhood, healthy masculinity, and ending gender-based violence and discrimination. I’m also the mentorship director of DemocraShe. It’s all about guiding, helping, and supporting girls from underserved communities to rise into leadership roles, even run for office. It’s nonpartisan. I’ve been in the trenches of these girls. It’s nationwide, all done virtually, and they’re doing incredible things. They often come from communities that have no support for their identity or beliefs, and they find community within DemocraShe in a way that completely and utterly empowers a new vision for themselves to become a leader.
Becky Mollenkamp: I love it, and we need more girls and women, especially women who hold more marginalized identities, to be excited about politics, so much so that they want to get involved so we can save democracy and change things that may be happening. Thank you for shining a light on that. I'm going to make a donation to the organization to say thank you for your time and encourage listeners to do the same. I will link to it in the show notes so you can learn more, and I will link to everything about Chelsey also in the show notes so you can go and connect with her and learn more from her. Thank you for your time. This has been great.
Chelsey Goodan: Thank you so much. You're so amazing. Thank you.