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"Meaningful work is less about what you do and more about how you experience what you do—and every job can, and should be meaningful." - Tamara Myles
The WorkWell Podcast™ is back and I am so excited about the inspiring guests we have lined up. Wellbeing at work is the issue of our time. This podcast is your lens into what the experts are seeing, thinking, and doing.
Hi, I am Jen Fisher, host, bestselling author and influential speaker in the corporate wellbeing movement and the first-ever Chief Wellbeing Officer in the professional services industry. On this show, I sit down with inspiring individuals for wide-ranging conversations on all things wellbeing at work. Wellbeing is the future of work. This podcast will help you as an individual, but also support you in being part of the movement for change in your own organizations and communities. Wellbeing can be the outcome of work well designed. And we all have a role to play in this critical transformation!
This podcast provides general information and discussions about health and wellness. The content is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical condition. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of something you have heard on this podcast. The podcast owner, producer and any sponsors are not liable for any health-related claims or decisions made based on the information presented or discussed.
Jen Fisher: [00:00:00] Let's cut through the corporate BS for a minute. We're all supposed to find meaningful work and follow our passion, but most of us are just trying to pay the rent and not lose our minds. Is the whole concept of meaningful work just privileged nonsense, or is there actually something here that won't make us roll our eyes?
This is the Work Well podcast series. Hi, I'm Jen Fisher, and today I'm talking with Tamara Miles co-author of the book, meaningful Work. Tamara is a consultant and organizational development expert who has spent years helping people figure out if their jobs are actually worth the chunk of their lives that they're trading for a paycheck, and she's not here to blow sunshine.
She's here to tell us the truth about what meaningful work really looks like. When you strip away all the LinkedIn inspiration posts.
Tamara, welcome to the show.
Tamara Myles: Thank you. I'm so delighted to be here.
Jen Fisher: I am so excited to [00:01:00] have you on and it's been a long time coming and I am really excited to talk about this topic of meaningful work. So I wanna like jump right in. What does meaningful work actually mean? Especially when you have things like student loans or a mortgage to pay your kids to feed.
Because I feel like all your passion sounds great until the bills come due.
Tamara Myles: Yeah, that, uh, it's such a, a great question to get us started with because there's so many misconceptions, right? Yeah. So I'll start with kind of demystifying it a little bit and debunking some of the misconceptions, and then I'll tell you how we define meaning.
Um, and this definition came directly from our research, and so. One of the big misconceptions is that meaningful work, you know, is kind of made up of this following your passion or this rare breakthrough moment where it feels meaningful when you land a big promotion or you nail the client presentation or you, you save a life.[00:02:00]
And we find is that, um, meaningful work is less about what you do and more about how you experience. What you do and that every job can, and of course we believe should be meaningful. And you know, people, leaders can help people find more meaning in the jobs that they already have. A second big misconception is that meaning and purpose are the same thing.
And you know, they're used interchangeably very often. And what we find is that purpose is a part of meaningful work, but is not enough to make work meaningful. And a good example is, you know, I work a lot with leaders in nonprofit. Spaces, right? So people that are very mission-driven that, um, come to the, to the nonprofit, to the organization, very drawn by the purpose, and even though they feel a deep sense of purpose in the work that they [00:03:00] do, they don't experience work as meaningful because they're missing the other two parts.
The other two components of meaningful work. Which are a sense of community and a sense of being challenged to grow. And so how we define meaningful work is work that provides community that allows you to contribute to something that matters and that challenges you to learn and grow. So community contribution and challenge are the three Cs of meaningful work.
Jen Fisher: Okay, so then are there just some jobs that genuinely suck that don't have those.
Tamara Myles: You know, we, we interviewed over 2000 people, across 25 industries. Everyone from, you know, people that work in hospitality, fast food, um, to more corporate tech jobs, to, uh, hairstylists and janitors. And in all of those jobs, people are able to find [00:04:00] meaning.
Hmm.
Jen Fisher: So tell me how we as. Individuals in certain jobs that we don't think are meaningful or we just think suck, or we as leaders can help others find meaning in their work or create meaningful work for themselves in jobs that they're currently in.
Tamara Myles: Yeah. So if we focus on the three C's, I'll kind of give you a practice.
Yeah. For, for each one. So community is the feeling of belonging, right? Being able to show up authentically, share, share parts of who you are, but also share your real thoughts and ideas, right? Community says I matter here. And in our research, the most powerful question we asked that that predicted a sense of community was this.
Does your leader care about what's happening in your life outside of work?
Jen Fisher: Yeah.
Tamara Myles: Right. And [00:05:00] so I think as individuals, if we're trying to create more meaning for ourselves, we just really focus on building those connections, those authentic relationships and research shows that it, it only takes 40 seconds to build a high quality connection with someone.
It's not like you need to spend 10, 20 minutes. It's, it's these small, everyday micro moments of connections that really add up to. To that sense of belonging, that sense of having a relationship. And research also shows that the number of work friends that we need to not feel lonely is just one. Yeah. You know, we just need a single person that we feel connected to and can share positive experiences with.
And so start small if you're feeling disconnected, if you're feeling lonely. Start with those micro moments of connections and asking people about their lives and then caring about it. Following up, you know, as a leader, one thing you can do [00:06:00] to encourage that is a practice that we learned from Dr. Vivic Murthy, who was the US surgeon General.
Right. Who focused a lot on during his time, um, on the, the loneliness crisis. Yeah. And he, he noticed that even within his own team. People were feeling lonely. And so he started this practice that he called Insight Scoop. And so every week at the, the All Hands team meeting, he had one person spend the first five minutes sharing something, um, personal so they could bring a picture in and tell the story of that picture or an item that means something to them and, and tell the story of that item.
And so it could be, you know, somebody bringing in a picture of their family vacation and maybe they went scuba diving and they're talking about that. But what happens is that somebody else in that meeting is like, oh, I, I like scuba diving too. And then afterwards they're like, oh, what's your favorite spot?
Or, you know, maybe I would bring in a picture of my hydrangeas blooming because they're so beautiful right now in the summer. And somebody would be like, [00:07:00] oh, I, I love flowers too. And we would connect about flower gardens and over time, you know, just getting to know these, um. Parts of your colleagues of somebody else really help create the networks of support that sustain us.
You know that, that help us show up at our best, but also help us do our best work.
Jen Fisher: So, so I know we need to get to the other two Cs, but I, I wanna dig into this one. And first of all, fun fact, I love when people bring up Dr. Vivek Murthy because I graduated high school with him, um, aid County public school.
Mm-hmm. So, um, love his work and all that he stands for, but I mean, the things that you're describing. I think for myself as I'm listening to you talk, and obviously I've done a bit of research in this area too and, and wrote a book called Work Better Together, and so I don't think anybody is nodding their head no when they're listening to you.
So why don't we do this? Like what has [00:08:00] kept us from doing this? Like how did we get. To where we are.
Tamara Myles: I think it's just that we, you know, right now our most valuable resource is attention. Right? Yeah. Um, and I think we're just, we, we feel time starved. We're also busy. Our attention is being pulled in a thousand different directions, and it's easy to ignore that human connection.
Uh, and I think that the human connection
Jen Fisher: can be messy.
Tamara Myles: Yeah, exactly. Or we feel like, you know, we don't have time. We don't have time for this. Yeah. Like we gotta jump right into, but you said it's, you said 40
Jen Fisher: seconds. I feel like we all waste far more than 40 seconds in any day. Right?
Tamara Myles: Definitely. And I think that's, that's also like a misconception.
I think people think like, oh, here we go. I gotta. You know, spend 20 minutes getting to know someone and, and I think again, it's the misconception. It's, it's the small moments. That's something else we found in our [00:09:00] research is that meaning is made up in the small moments that matter. It's less about intensity and more about frequency and that compounds over time.
Jen Fisher: Got it. Okay. So let's move into the other two Cs.
Tamara Myles: Okay, so contribution is mm-hmm. The feeling that what you do matters. That you are making an impact, and, and that's where purpose lives, right? If purpose brought you to the organization and you believe in the purpose, contribution is understanding how you.
Make a difference to that purpose? How is it that what you spend your time doing actually impacts the purpose, but also how is it that you are having an impact, you know, with your colleagues? It doesn't always have to be, um, a big sense of purpose. You, you don't have to have a grand mission for your work to be purposeful.
It can come from. Recognition. Um, one of the really [00:10:00] great statistics that we found when we were doing our research comes from Gallup and WorkHuman, and they found that one, thank you. Once a week from a manager is enough to cut burnout and disengagement in half. Just one. Thank you. Once a week. And less than 40% of people believe that they are adequately recognized.
Right. And you know, for leaders who obviously care about the business case, um, without positive feedback and recognition, people are 74% more likely to leave within a year. And again, right. These are simple practices. It doesn't take. Um, that long to say, Hey, I noticed how you handled that customer complaint today because of you, we were able to keep, you know, a happy customer.
Thank you so much. So it's noticing people, appreciating, affirming them. Those are really, um, important practices that we don't do [00:11:00] often because we, leaders often assume that people know their contribution, that they know their impact, but most of us don't. And it's nice to be recognized.
Jen Fisher: It is nice to be recognized.
Do you have any guidance on, I love the stat around just one. Thank you. Is there any, because I feel like also in this digital world that we live in, one of the things, and maybe this is just Jen's pet peeve, is I do refrain from kind of the reply to all. Thank you. That feels. Hollow, is there any guidance on like, how do you really say thank you in a mean, or show gratitude in a meaningful way?
Because I think the reply to all cycle, um, starts to kind of, you know, it does, it does start to, to feel hollow even though that's not the intention. I think sometimes on the receiving end, you're, you just. You just, you don't internalize it or you just kind of brush it off as like, oh, it [00:12:00] was just kind of a throwaway because the person said, thank you to everyone.
Tamara Myles: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And, and I learned this language, which I'm gonna share from a client, and, um, and I think it's brilliant. And so one, one way to think about it is to think about it as on stage, backstage and after the show, right? So on stage is the feedback that you give when in real time.
So imagine somebody's performing right. Stage. It's those, those nonverbal cues, the nodding, the affirmation, the uhhuh to, to get people to encourage and keep going. And so if you're thinking about that at work, it's the simple, oh, thank you. Oh, I hadn't thought of that, or that's a really great idea. Then backstage, it's, um, the opportunity where you have to maybe say something a little bit more thoughtful, more meaningful.
Oh, that, that was a great. Show, you know, you did great and you're kind of giving the flowers, right? And it's, it's a quick, a little bit more than just the nonverbal cues, [00:13:00] um, but not as intense. But we, we need those moments too, where, you know, after the meeting, um, after somebody worked really hard on a presentation after they sent an email that was impactful or something like that, where you are acknowledging that either as a reply via email, or either as a in-person thank you, a phone.
Call a text, you know, slack teams channel, kind of quick acknowledgement. And then after the show is the more thoughtful, deeper, positive feedback. And we developed a model for, for that more. Meaningful feedback, which we call the best feedback model. And it's behavioral, explicit, strengths based and timely.
And so behavioral is you wanna focus on what it is exactly that they did, right? Not on who they are, but what they did. So they can, they can repeat that explicit is, you wanna be really clear about that and uh, highlight. What it is that they [00:14:00] did explicitly, strengths-based, is focused on a strength that you saw them used.
Because often we don't even know our strengths. We have strengths, blindness, and, and leaders see strengths in us sometimes before we even see it. So yeah, it's really great if you can say, oh, you showed a lot of. Perseverance, sticking with that, or, you know, I love the creativity you brought into that project.
So picking a strength and then timely is doing it as soon as possible after it happened, um, rather than waiting for the, like, the yearly review. Um, and so I think if you think about it as, you know, on stage backstage and after the show, it gives you a little bit of flexibility about when and how to do it.
Um, and it gives you different entry points to positive feedback as well. Uh,
Jen Fisher: I love that. I, I just wrote that down and I'm gonna put it on a sticky note. So,
Tamara Myles: I mean, one thing, Jen, that we found in our research too, on these, um, on these organizations that Excel, right, we studied several positive outliers. So [00:15:00] organizations that are on the positive end of the spectrum on providing this experience of meaningful work.
And one of the things that they do is that they create organizational structures for, um, colleagues to give. Positive feedback to each other, peer to peer positive feedback. So whether that's like a Slack channel dedicated for that, or using different software like, uh, 15 five has software that they use and it's called High Fives.
And so people have different platforms that they use for that. But just creating the system. And research finds that when peers recognize each other's contribution, it strengthens their community with each other by 55%. So it's a great way to do both the contribution and the community.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, and I love that.
I, and I love the idea of kind of having a separate channel or platform to, to do these things because that does make it, I mean, it, it signals to people that. You know that this [00:16:00] matters here, right? Right. That we, that it matters to recognize the contributions of, of each other, and that that is part of our culture and who we are.
And so I think having something that. You know, feels specific for the reason of recognition, feels really important.
Tamara Myles: Well, and also to, you know, you don't wanna put all the burden also on just the leader, right? Yeah. To recognize the more you can create Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. The more you can create just like a culture of recognition and present feedback, the more you know, everybody can, can feel a part of it.
And, and research on gratitude shows that. Yeah. Um, receiving gratitude. Feels really great. It, it has many positive benefits for us, but also giving gratitude and then witnessing the person receiving the gratitude, you know? Yeah. Kind of be so grateful. So it, it creates a, a positive upward spiral.
Jen Fisher: I love that about gratitude.
I always say that gratitude's like the gift that keeps on giving. 'cause it, you know, it's, it's a gift to the other person, but it's also a gift to yourself because it works [00:17:00] both ways and there's, I don't know that there's many things in life that work like that.
Tamara Myles: Right. And again, it's free from a, like a Yeah.
Jen Fisher: And it's free too. Yes, absolutely. So, okay, so let's talk about the third one, which is challenge.
Tamara Myles: So challenge is, uh, really the beauty of knowing that we are learning and growing, right? Where community says, I matter here where contribution says, um, what I do matters here. Challenge says my growth matters here.
And so. It's, it's about the, you know, having a leader, having colleagues who see potential in you and create the space for you to learn and grow. And so, you know, there's, there's a, a story that I love to tell that connects to challenge, and it was a couple years ago, a fisherman in France caught a 67 pound.
Goldfish. Right. And that's a goldfish the size of [00:18:00] my Golden doodle Cali. Um, because the thing about goldfish is that they are what's called indeterminate growers. They don't stop growing. Their size is determined by their environment. And so if you keep a goldfish in a small bowl, it will stay small. But if you put it in a lake, which is where that goldfish was, it can grow into something pretty extraordinary.
And so. We humans are the same. Our potential grows in environments that push us, that really challenge us to be the best versions of ourselves. And so challenge is really about creating that environment. It's about believing in people's potential and giving them, you know, the, the challenge, the, the stretch assignments to and, and the support to encourage that growth.
Jen Fisher: And, and what are some ways that we can do that? Like what does that look like?
Tamara Myles: So one, one thing that we [00:19:00] developed was a matrix, and we call it the zone of possibilities. So, um, if you imagine, you know, four by four matrix on, on one axis is, um, high, um, expectations. Low expectations. And on the other one is high support and low support.
And so the zone of possibility is where high expectations meet high support. And so it's about really having high expectations for people's performance, believing that they can get there, but not just kind of like throwing them in the deep end and hoping that they swim right, because that, that puts 'em in the zone of what we call zone of anxiety.
So it's about having those expectations. Giving them those hard assignments, seeing those strengths, giving them opportunity to develop those, but also providing high support. And that can be in the form of professional development, development conversations, um, resources, mentorship, all kinds of different support mechanisms that you can offer.
And [00:20:00] when people are in that space where, you know, they're, they, people have high expectations of them. And they feel highly supported. They really unlock their potential. They feel like they, they are really developing their highest potential. They feel like we heard so many powerful stories of meaning in those challenging moments, right?
Because another misconception. Of meaning is that, you know, it's, it's the same as happiness and pleasure and that it always feels good. And what we find, especially in the challenge seat, is that often the meaning lives in these, these growth moments that are often really challenging and stressful, right?
Yeah. But when we have somebody who's kind of believing in us and, and challenging us and supporting us, it, it feels really meaningful.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, and I, as you're talking, I, I can't help but think of, you [00:21:00] know, the, the connections to hope here, right? Because in, in many ways, this is, you know, how hope within an organization gets created, right?
Hope isn't, you know, the frivolous, easy stuff it is. Hope is often comes from the hard stuff and the challenging stuff, but knowing that I'm in community and that I'm supported and that there are, you know, I, I love the what you talk about possibility, right? Because that's, that's where hope lives too, is you know, in, in possibility thinking.
Um, and so there's just so many beautiful connections between hope and and meaning. Let's talk about. Burnout. I think there's some probably logical and maybe obvious connections between meaning and work, you know, and burnout in my work. Was there anything in your research that surprised you?
Tamara Myles: Two things.
One is that we found that burnout, you know, people don't burn out from working hard alone, right? It's working hard [00:22:00] without feeling like what they do matters. Matters. Understand? So it's a feeling of emptiness, right? You're working hard, but you don't feel connected to the people you work with, to the work that you're doing, to your own sense of growth.
Um, the other thing we learned is that there's this. Term called bore out. Right? Which, um, is very similar to burnout in the way that it presents itself with, you know, people feel, um, disengaged, cynical, exhausted, all those things. But it comes from, um, feeling stagnant, feeling like you are working without seeing your own growth and development without any, any path to growth and, and, you know, an advancement.
And so, um. I know that you, you talk a lot about burnout and studied it a lot. Um, and, and I think those two nuances of burnout were surprising to me.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, I, I would agree. I mean, I think, you know, a lot of times people think that [00:23:00] burnout comes from, you know, ju just kind of overwork and exhaustion. And what I also found in, in my research is, you know, it, it's, it's also highly correlated to hopelessness.
And hopelessness can create burnout. Just this feeling that nothing that I do matters or things won't ever change here, so why am I even going to try? So again, lots of connections. So what, so we talked about the three Cs in order to have. Meaningful work. Do I really need all three? What happens if I have two or one?
Like what? Uh, walk me through that.
Tamara Myles: So what we found is that yes, you need to have all three, but they don't have to be present at the same level. So. The three Cs create a multiplier effect, right? And you can't multiply something by zero. So what we found is like often some people have a really high sense of community, for example.
Um, and they have some sense of [00:24:00] contribution and low sense of challenge, but it's still there. It has to be still there to some extent. And so, um, and that was fascinating too, because. You know, so my co-author Wes, uh, kind of his background is in social impact and nonprofits. Mm-hmm. And he talks about his own experience where it was very purposeful but not meaningful.
Yeah. Because he had very, you know, low, like zero challenge, for example, and in a certain job. And so yes, all three have to be present, but not at the same level.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, it's fascinating that you, that you bring that up because I, I have had many conversations and done quite a bit of, um, work with people in, in nonprofits and you're right, it's very purposeful work, but there's also very high levels of, of burnout and so I guess we would look at, okay, it's purposeful, but it's not necessarily meaningful because the three Cs aren't present.
Tamara Myles: Yeah. I mean, we did work, um, with a, a [00:25:00] nonprofit over a couple years to. Really increase, you know, the, the meaning that employees felt, that all the colleagues felt, and, and they all felt such a deep sense of purpose.
Jen Fisher: Yeah.
Tamara Myles: But they didn't feel a sense of community with each other. They didn't have connections.
A lot of them felt like they didn't belong. And so we worked on increasing that. It made a huge difference.
Jen Fisher: And do you find, because I, I do think that. Many organizations that that I've come in contact with, that I've worked with, that I've connected with are very focused, more focused now than probably ever before on this kinda idea of corporate purpose and what problems are we solving beyond just making a profit and how are we.
Engaging with our communities and trying to make the communities in which we operate kind of a, a, a better place. Do you feel like many companies are very focused on purpose but aren't necessarily, [00:26:00] may be purpose and mission, but aren't necessarily understanding that they also need to be focused on meaning?
Tamara Myles: Yeah. And even, yeah, even when they focus on purpose, right? And that was, it was great. Like Simon Sinek. And so, yeah, so a couple decades, right? To start with why, and that's really important. But what we find is this organizational purpose and, and knowing, you know, why you exist as a company is really important to attract talent, right?
So people who care about the same things you care about are really attracted to that purpose. But once there're. Once they start, that's not enough anymore to keep 'em there, even from a sense of purpose because they don't feel connected to that purpose. And so what I like to say is contribution activates purpose.
It's about really acknowledging people's contributions, right? We talked about positive feedback, but even connecting the work that people are doing to that purpose. [00:27:00] And sharing stories, uh, beneficiary contact if possible, but we, you know, everyday storytelling of the impact that you're having really helped activate that purpose and keep, keep those people there that were drawn to the organization for the purpose.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, I love that. 'cause I feel like, you know, especially in, in the space that, that we live and work in, unfortunately a lot of the things have kind of become, you know, buzzword bingo, right? Mm-hmm. You know, we kind of, you know, we, we throw out these words. Or these concepts as really mattering and I think well-intended leaders want to get behind them, but then there's not really this, like how does it show up in the day-to-day lives of, of, of workers, and how you talk about it in terms of.
What's the experience that they're having in, you know, in the, in the day to day of working here and not necessarily kind of the, the, you know, big capital p purpose [00:28:00] of the organization.
Tamara Myles: Exactly, exactly. And that's so important, you know, in any, in, in, in any. Kind of career path and in every job. And, and also my hairdresser, Brianne, you know, one day when I was, I was doing the research and we were talking about it, and I was telling her about meaningful work and, and she looked at me through the mirror and she was like, you know, Tamara, I don't see myself as a hairstylist.
I see myself as a day maker. I love that. Yeah. I was really intrigued and I asked her what she meant and she told me the story of, um, David Wagner, who was the owner of the salon where she trained, and she said that one day a longtime client came in to see David for cut and color. And during the appointment he connected with her.
She left at his jokes. He hugged her goodbye. A few days later, David received a letter from that client and in [00:29:00] the letter she had revealed something pretty heartbreaking. She said that she had planned to take her own life that day, and the only reason she had booked the appointment was to have her hair styled for her funeral.
During that hour with David, you know, something changed for her. Um, and it wasn't the perfect color or the perfect haircut, but it was the way that she felt in that hour with him. And that feeling gave her just enough hope to check herself into a hospital instead. Wow. And so David was shaken and he realized in that moment that.
You know, a haircut saved a life and that every single interaction holds the potential for meaning if we choose to create it. And so that was the day that he, um, started the day maker movement and now he trains every hairstyle that goes through his training in this day, maker philosophy. And so Brianne [00:30:00] trained years ago, and I am a recipient of that day maker philosophy, but I didn't even know.
I didn't know what kept me going back to her 10 years after she moved 40 minutes away, you know? Right. But it's because she's so intentional about being a day maker, and I think all of us can really think of our jobs like that. Like how is it that, that we are connecting to the bigger purpose? It's not about the haircut.
It's not about the color. How can I be a day maker? Right. And it's the same in any industry.
Jen Fisher: I feel like we all need to go through David's training. Maybe he has a, if he, if he happens to be listening, you have a big, you have a big career ahead of you, David, if you want it, that, that definitely is, is, is needed in the, in the world that, that we're living in.
So, so tell me, I I have a, you know, just in the back of my head, I've, you know, been in the wellbeing space for, for more than a decade. And I always kind of have that naysayer in the back of my head. What do you say to the [00:31:00] person that says, I don't care about meaning in my work? Uh, that's not what I'm here for.
I get my meaning outside of work. I come here to do a job and get my paycheck and leave, and I don't want to be bothered or burdened by any of this stuff.
Tamara Myles: So I say it's great that they get their meaning elsewhere. We should, we shouldn't get meaning only from work, right? Mm-hmm. And we spend more waking hours working than doing anything else, right?
And so if we don't get any sense of meaning, if our work feels meaningless, it is really hard. For our life to have meaning. It's really hard. Research finds to have a meaningful life without meaningful work. And so while it's really important to get meaning from family, from hobbies, from community, from volunteering, from all the other aspects of our lives, it is very important also to get meaning from our work from the third of our lives that [00:32:00] we spend working.
Jen Fisher: Yeah, I think that's, that's really powerful. And also I, I do believe that, um, you know, there maybe there are rare few people that, you know, can, can compartmentalize work and life. Um, I don't think that's most of us. And so I think, you know, what happens and how we feel about work. Bleeds into our life and vice versa.
You know, they, they show up, um, whether or not we believe they show up. And so, um, I, I just think it's incredibly important for us to. You have have meaning in both?
Tamara Myles: Find meaning in
Jen Fisher: both. Yeah. Yeah.
Tamara Myles: Work and life are not separate. I mean, there's so much research that shows that our experience at work really spills into our family life, um, the way we raise our kids as parents.
I mean, the reason why I even went into this field of study and wanted to do this research and wrote the book [00:33:00] is because I. Truly believe that our workplaces are our biggest levers for increasing wellbeing at scale. Yeah. Because we, you know, work is one of the last places where people from different backgrounds, different ideas, different ages where we all kind of converge to work towards something, um, a common goal.
Right. And, and. We spend a lot of time at work. And so if we can make work better, if work can contribute to our wellbeing and when work is meaningful, you know, we feel better, we're more creative, we contribute more, uh, meaning is a leading indicator of the, um, the outcomes we want. And so when we can experience meaning at work, we bring that home with us.
Yeah. And that impacts our families. It impacts our communities, you know, up to three degrees, right? Research finds that, that our wellbeing. Spreads up to three degrees, and so I, I believe it, it's such an important, [00:34:00] uh, mission.
Jen Fisher: I, I couldn't agree more. And you, you brought up, um, you know, different ages in the workplace and, and that is a hot topic these days with so many different generations in the workplace.
So did your research show any generational differences or needs or understanding or lack of understanding amongst generations? Did you all look at that?
Tamara Myles: We did look at that and what's really interesting is that, you know, the narrative now is that like, oh, gen Z only cares about one.
Jen Fisher: That's always, that's always the narrative, right, right.
For any new generation.
Tamara Myles: Yes. And so I think, you know, it's true that Gen Z has been much more vocal. About it. Sure. There's some data that shows that, you know, more than 40% of Gen Z workers have refused an assignment to, to ethical concerns and all of that. So they're definitely, uh, uh, you know, kind of able to speak up more and kind of, I guess, demand what they want.
However, that said, what we find is that every generation. [00:35:00] Cares about meaningful work and wants work to be meaningful and defines it very similarly, those three Cs are important across generations. What we also find is that the differences in which C people care most about are more like more career stage differences than generational.
Differences. And so people that are just beginning their careers, so you think Gen Z, they care more about challenge. They want somebody to believe in them, give them opportunities, push them to learn and grow. They wanna feel like they are learning at work, growing, going somewhere advancing. Um, people that are my generation Gen Xers are maybe thinking about contribution a little more.
What's my legacy? You know, what am I doing with my life? But this is, is more about career stage than generational. So somebody who maybe left, uh, work and spent maybe a decade doing something [00:36:00] else and came back might be more interested in advancement than contribution. Yeah. So it has a lot more to do with that than generations.
Jen Fisher: That's fascinating. I, and I mean, I, and I love that, right? Because I, I agree with you, you know, the, the generational conversation. Are there differences in generations? Absolutely. But I still think that. Um, in many ways the things that we want and need out of work, we're we're, we're more alike than we are different.
And we, we just don't seem to be having the right conversations about that. I agree. Instead we're point, instead of we're pointing fingers of, you know, what we think the other generation is like. Um, and of course that's a tale as old as time. Exactly. So let's talk about, we talked about this a little bit before, but I wanted.
Dig into kinda managers. You mentioned Gallup and recent research, you know, from Gallup on, on managers is [00:37:00] showing that, you know, number one, we, we all know that our manager has. The biggest impact on kind of our experience at work, how we feel, our wellbeing, but also at the same time, managers are the people that I always say it's the worst job in any organization.
'cause they get pulled in every direction. You know, they, they, they get hit from all sides. It is literally the hardest job in any organization. And Gallup recently came out and said that most managers, the type of training that they're getting is not actually like training. To learn how to lead people, but it's more along the lines of, you know, how do I manage a book of business?
You know, what does a p and l look like? You know, those types, how do I manage a pledge? You know, the kind of the more technical aspects of work, if you will. Um, yet these are the people that are having the biggest impact on, on others. So I guess when it comes to meaning, what I feel is most managers. You know, feel, and [00:38:00] there's my dog barking.
Mm-hmm. So I told you earlier, we, we love dogs on this show. So, and we live in the real world. Um, most managers are overwhelmed, you know, they're just trying to hit their numbers 'cause that's how success is defined. They themselves might be challenged with the three Cs in terms of how to create it for themselves.
And so. Talk me through. If I'm that manager, like I believe in this, I want to create meaning for myself. I want to help my team find meaning without it feeling, you know, fake or contrived. Um. But, but it's also not what I've been taught to do, not what I've been trained to do. And it's certainly not something that I'm rewarded for.
Tamara Myles: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a problem I see every day in every organization I, I work with, right? Where people are trained on technical skills, but not people skills and you know, so Katie Burke. Is a chief people officer at the [00:39:00] time, she was a chief people officer at HubSpot and we interviewed her, um, because HubSpot is a company that is really known for their culture.
And, um, and people there, you know, stay and they find their work very meaningful and she told us that. You know, she was noticing this trend, right? Where leaders, um, kind of pick up bad habits because there's no, there was no formal training on how to be a people leader. And so they started retraining all their leaders.
When they get promoted into a manager role where they're in charge of other people, um, they, they train them. Thoroughly on these capabilities. And I think that's an exception. Unfortunately. I mean, the reason why we did this research from a leadership perspective is because, you know, all the research about meaningful work prior to our research was done from the individual perspective.
So how can I find more meaning in my own work? And that's really important because meaning, um, [00:40:00] is often a very individual experience. But we suspected that leaders played. A big role. And what we found is that leaders are responsible for 48% of each person's experience of meaning at work. Wow. So almost half of our experience of meaning comes from what our leaders do or fail to do.
And that's a big responsibility. Right. And so it's really important, and I see organizations now that are offering people different tracks because. You know, a few years ago, we even in order for you to advance in an organization, if you were like an incredible individual contributor, was the next step was to become a manager, right?
And lead people, right? But not everyone wants that, um, or is the right fit for, for being a people leader. And so now organization is totally agree. Yeah. They're starting to for different tracks, which I think is really important. So you can still advance, but not necessarily have to lead people. Um. But then I think your, the other part of [00:41:00] your question, which we get asked a lot is, well, how can I create more meaning at work if I don't feel like my own work is meaningful?
Right. Right. And so I have two answers to that. The first one is that, you know, research finds again and again that one of the best ways to make yourself happy is to make other people happy. Right and meaning is, is very similar. When leaders increase meaning at work for their teams, their own sense of meaning often increases because they feel more connected to them, their contribution, um, feels higher.
And also because they were challenged to think in a different way. So all three Cs increase. That said, when uh, if you're thinking, you know, how really wanna experience more meaning at work, you can examine the three C's in your own work and then reflect how you can increase each one. So for community, you know, do you feel a sense of belonging and inclusion with [00:42:00] your team?
What efforts do you make to build relationships and connect with colleagues for contribution? You can think of? When is the last time you got to experience the impact of your work firsthand? What changes or adjustments? Can you make to enhance this sense of meaning? And for challenge, you know, you can think about ways that, that you're actively learning, expanding your skills.
Are there tasks or projects that, that have provided you with a sense of challenge? Does your role allow you to stretch? If not, you know, how can you make changes to that? How can you, um, advocate or take a class or something so we can examine it? And for ourselves, but also don't wait until you're experiencing, you know, work as deeply meaningful, go, make work more meaningful for others, and, and it will in turn increase your own experience of meaning.
Jen Fisher: Oh, I love that. I, uh, yeah, I mean, and, and I think in any case, you know, creating, doing something [00:43:00] for others or trying to create more meaning for others is, is always a good answer. So is it ever too late to try to create meaning in our work?
Tamara Myles: I don't think so. That's a good question. We didn't, um, we didn't look at that from the research.
So now I'm trying to think like, do we have examples of,
Jen Fisher: I mean, I mean I guess like kind of said differently, is there ever just a time when. I need to leave X organization or X role because I don't think this whole meaningful work thing will work out for me here.
Tamara Myles: Oh, I see. So like if there's like no fit within the organization.
Yeah, yeah. Unfortunately, there are times where you know as much as you try as an individual contributor or even as a leader. As much as you can, try to create a pocket of meaning within your own team because you can, right? Even if, even if the rest of the culture is not quite right or it's toxic or doesn't care about meaningful [00:44:00] work, you can still as a leader, create pockets of meaning, um, and increase the three Cs.
But it's really hard when senior leaders and leadership more broadly is not, um. You know, acting in line with the values we found in our research that role modeling the espoused values of the organization is a, uh, kind of a baseline condition for meaning for all the other practices to work. When leaders say one thing, when they don't walk the talk or say one thing, but act another way.
It's the fastest killer of meaning in an organization. What's the fastest killer of hope, too? Yeah. Right. And it's really hard to recover from that. It's really hard to recover. And so sometimes maybe leaving is the Yeah. Best solution.
Jen Fisher: Yeah. And I, you know, I always tell people like, it's, it's not a, it's not a personal failing.
It's not, it doesn't mean you're broken. Because you don't fit [00:45:00] in a certain organization, um, and you know it's okay, you know, just like, you know, not all relationships work out, not all friends work out. That's, you know, that's not, that's part of life and it doesn't necessarily mean that. There's something wrong with you.
It just means that you'll thrive in a, in a, in a different environment. Exactly. So, so true, so true. Well, Tamara, thank, thank you so much for being on the show. This conversation is everything I thought it was gonna be. Um, and so, so again, thank you for your time and your wisdom.
Tamara Myles: Thank you so much. I loved our conversation.
Jen Fisher: I'm so grateful Tamara could be with us today to explore how we can bridge the gap between what we do and why it matters. Her insights on creating meaningful work experiences remind us that purpose isn't a luxury, it's essential for our wellbeing and fulfillment. Thank you to our producer and our listeners.
You [00:46:00] can find the Work Well podcast by visiting various podcasters using the key word work Well, all one word to hear more. And if you like the show, don't forget to subscribe. So you get all of our future episodes. If you have a topic you'd like to hear on the Work Well podcast series, or maybe a story you would like to share.
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