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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take your real questions about faith, the bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Tammy Brown:Hey, you guys. We have a really fun episode covering one of my favorite things that I love when Matt talks about. We're gonna talk about aliens today. We're gonna talk about meditation and gender. It's gonna be a really good episode.
Tammy Brown:So are you ready?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes. I am. It's fun for you because you don't have to answer the questions.
Tammy Brown:Go ahead. Yeah. This first question is actually the question I hate you and I talking about
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay.
Tammy Brown:And we tend to differ on. But I love that someone's asking. And this is g o v from Riverside, California. She said, what are your thoughts on the possibility of alien life? Do you think they exist?
Tammy Brown:Is there a biblical backing for this? I'm And gonna have you share your actual answer, and then I'm gonna give my two cents on how I choose to stand.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I have no idea what you're gonna say.
Tammy Brown:Yes. You do.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You totally do. How do you pronounce your name?
Tammy Brown:Jovi.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jovi. Yeah. Jovi, you know, I I mean, your question is what are your thoughts on the possibility of alien life? I would say certainly, I think it's possible. We don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that your question is, do you think they exist? Is there any biblical backing for this? And so I think Christians that would say no have drawn a hard line between the concept of spiritual beings and physical bodies. And so I don't think that that's a that's a biblical line. So I think if you asked a first century Jew, what's the difference between their soul and their body?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They would look at you kind of cross eyed. And so what happened is as Christianity became less and less Jewish, it became more and more Greek, and as we became more and more Greek, we became what's called platonic. And Plato's idea is that the soul and the body are completely separate. And so this is where I get we get the idea that when you die, your body stays on earth and your soul goes to heaven. Well, Jewish mind is that our body is a spiritual instrument, that it is not merely physical and that your soul is not merely spiritual.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so this hard division really is Greek thought, N. Wright or as he asked us to call him, Tom, says that when platonic thought and biblical thought meet, platonic thought tends to win. And that's just part of the divorce of Judaism from Christianity. So here's what I would say. If we think of our bodies as spiritual bodies, and every Christian would think this, right, where does Christ dwell?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He dwells in us. What does first Corinthians say? We are the temple of the living God. And I think we all we all understand that, but then we divert to platonic thought which says, no, no, my body is earthly and perishable and my soul is imperishable. But the whole point of the resurrection is that our body will join our soul in becoming immortal and imperishable.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that's that's why as Christians, we've kind of forgotten the resurrection. The resurrection is so important so that our bodies will be eternal spiritual things forever like God. So why do I say that? There isn't a Christian alive that would say the Bible does not speak to powers, principalities, and spiritual beings of the unseen world. Everyone acknowledges that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Paul says that, certainly Jesus addressed the devil as a real being. So they saw spiritual beings as a real being. The problem is in church, what I think we do is we go, oh, that's spiritual and therefore, because we're platonic in our thought, we say not physical. And that's a problem because why wouldn't spiritual beings have bodies if God created us as spiritual beings with bodies? And so is there a life in the universe?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Is there a life out there? What I would say is the Bible seems to indicate that there are powers, principalities, thrones, plural, kingdoms, plural, that we cannot see. I think it's off for a Christian to assume that those are merely spiritual realms without physical reality. I think that's a mistake. That's that's my opinion.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So then the question is, do those thrones, powers, kingdoms, do they exist in the physical universe that we observe? I don't like to say that we can see but that we're observing with telescopes, with satellites, with ships. You know, here's what I think we know at this moment. The university the university the universe is growing faster growing faster than we can observe it. So like there there's no current understanding that you can get to the end of it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so what I would say is we just don't know. What I can tell you is this, Tammy and I had an encounter with a woman who believes that she was abducted by aliens, taken to an alien spaceship, did all kinds of things to her. It was the greatest night of my life. Tammy was terrified, wanted to get out of there. I wanted to ask all kinds of questions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:After we prayed over her, and and what I said to her was, look, I don't know if if aliens are real. And so to answer your question, Jovi, I I don't know. But your question is, is it possible? I would say yes. I said, I don't know if aliens are real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't know if you're demon possessed. And I I said, I don't know if you're losing your battle with mental illness. I don't know. This is a woman that was, wouldn't you agree, absolutely distraught and she believed something very, very real was tormenting her and she believed they were aliens. So we did a deep healing on her, we asked in the name of Jesus for whatever this is for him to take it away.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A year later, we get back together and here's what she said. She said she now believes that these aliens that had physical bodies that tormented her, these were her words, she now believes they're aliens. Excuse me. Now believes they're demons. So now, you know, I I don't know, you know, but that changed for her.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think we need to understand that clearly in scripture, angels can take the form of human bodies. So we see that throughout scripture, Genesis 19, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, You know, angels appear regularly, and when they appear, they tend to appear in human forms. Sometimes they eat. So they eat with Abraham. And so we just have to we have to make sure that we understand that the spiritual can be physical.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we don't know if, you know, they they just took on a physical form. We don't understand that reality. But again, for my Jewish brothers and sisters that have such a hard time with God becoming a man, We see this in the Old Testament constantly with the angel of the Lord appearing in human form. And so so what I would just say is I think it's as we ask this question, we have to first ask theologically, is the spiritual realm, the spiritual kingdoms, the spiritual thrones, is it possible that they have physical bodies? Maybe not exactly in the way that we do, but some kind of embodied person, I don't wanna use the some kind of divine being and I don't use that word to mean God, but but more like God than we are.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the Bible says, God created us a little lower than the angels and that actual word in Psalms is a little lower than the Elohims, plural. So the the gods. So what I would say is I think it's certainly possible, know, but as Christians, what we believe, right, what is Jesus? Jesus is not from here. So he's an extraterrestrial, you know, not like, did you have three fingers or two?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I can't remember.
Tammy Brown:So I don't remember.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. I know you pointed with one, but I think he had three fingers. I actually just watched that movie on an airplane. So Jesus, right, is extraterrestrial.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So he's not from here and he came to earth and we and we believe in and that's what the Bible says, no one has descended except he who ascends. So it's the languages Jesus is coming from a realm, from a world, the language he uses heaven, but he has a body. So so what I would say is we we don't know, but my suspicion is a lot of these things that we think are alien may be spiritual and are probably demonic, demons messing with us. That's my thought. I don't know.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But what I would say is I as Christians, we have to we have to quit thinking of spiritual as unembodied because I I think it's pretty clear that our bodies and this is why sin is so grievous. Our bodies are meant to be spiritual houses of worship for God and so when we sin, it grieves the Holy Spirit, it it grieves us because our body isn't just some flesh suit that we throw away, it's part of God's redemptive plan. My body will be resurrected, it'll be changed, it will go from perishable to imperishable but I think you guys will still recognize me as Matt. I I don't, you know, I think that I mean, I'm gonna look better, but, you know. Impossible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're so sweet. Alright. What do you think?
Tammy Brown:Well, I was just gonna say our whole life, you're kind of always been to the stance of, of course, you think God would just limit to Earth? Like, it's such a big universe. Jesus was an alien himself. And I I just choose to not believe that there are because it just feels too far out for me to think that there's you know, but I think in the context of, like, little green monsters walking around, now we know they're gray. Well, that's true.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. I will say this that we did have an encounter with someone who I would is very smart and articulate and kind and wonderful and as flesh and blood as me. I enjoy spending time with them as a friend. They're fun and funny. And in a moment of really deep vulnerability, had shared a struggle that they had had with encounters.
Tammy Brown:And what I will say is it's the first time I ever thought, which is why I wanted out of the room, was like Yeah. Oh, like, it was as real as real as real could be for her. And she wasn't some, like, crazy you know, you see some people and it's like they're just like the crazy people you would think that are into it. She was just it could have been just like me
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:Who can be crazy on her worst day. But and I I could see the very real torment. Like, she believed everything she had experienced and what was it. And it was a very powerful experience praying over her. And, you know, her saying that she does believe that aliens are demonic.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:And so that was such a unique experience for us
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right.
Tammy Brown:To be in with her who had really experienced that. But up to my whole life, like, this question is just kinda like, are there little green alien monsters walking around? You know, when I was a kid, there was a TV show called z. Yeah. It's called z.
Tammy Brown:And, like, it was, like, humans in their alien suit, and they would rip their foot off and, like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. I was like They were lizards.
Tammy Brown:I remember you. That's that's not real. That's that's what I was I was like, I'm gonna choose to believe that that is not real and not happening and God is more complex than that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But Well, what I would say is whether or not lizard people are real in outer space. If you read if you read first Colossians and it's a poem about who Jesus is, the very image of God dwelled. It says that he made peace through his sacrifice on earth, through the shedding of blood in thrones, kingdoms, plurals, and and dominions. So what that means is there is life, Jovi, that's how you say
Tammy Brown:it. Jovi.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Jovi. There's life out there that needed to be redeemed. And for whatever reason, earth is the center point of this, not just global, but universal cosmic conflict. And really the first Christian thinker to write about this and think about this is CS Lewis and his space trilogy, which I think it's Silent Planet, Perilandria, and This Hideous Strength. I think those are the three books, and it's a fantastic series.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm not saying that C. S. Lewis is writing scripture, but he is a brilliant theologian, and what he's talking about is the cosmic role and nature of Jesus. We tend to limit what Jesus did just for humanity but when you read through Colossians, when you read Paul in Ephesians, what Jesus did disarmed powers and the authorities and the kingdoms and the thrones and that's hard for us to imagine because when you grow up Christian, right, you kind of think of God, you think of the devil and then people, but when you read throughout scripture, the apostle Paul, Ephesians chapter six would be the most famous verse that we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, powers, dominions, and that's that verse where I think we we separate, you know, kind of we wrestle not against flesh and blood. So what we assume is that our enemy is not flesh and blood, but what Paul's saying there is we're not fighting each other.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're fighting in a war that's beyond us and that's bigger than us and it's a war we cannot see. The enemy is camouflaged from us. Paul calls it loosely the unseen realm or world or whatever. And so what I would just say is, Jovi, read those books. I think they were fantastic.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I loved them. They're actually, I like them better than Tolkien which sounds like heresy, but I love those books and I think it's Perilandria is the book where ransom goes to a planet where Adam and Eve have not sinned yet and he's desperately trying to convince them not to believe Satan. And it's a fantastic because how do you tell people someone not to sin who doesn't know what sin is? It's really imaginative, and and I love it. So, you know, I mean
Tammy Brown:So are aliens real? Maybe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, she said possibly. And I said, yeah, possibly. So but but you anybody that says they know, I mean, I I think they've just stepped into to lunacy there. But it if if there aren't if there isn't life up there, it seems like an awful waste of space to me. And There
Tammy Brown:we had. I was waiting for you to say that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's just me.
Tammy Brown:That's whole life. That's our whole life. Yeah. Okay. Well, good answer to a very complex question that there's no definitive answer for.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So
Tammy Brown:Right. Okay. This next question comes from Idaho, a place called Nampa. We've driven through Nampa before on our trips up to see my family. Trey says, I have a very overactive mind.
Tammy Brown:Sometimes it gets in the way of quiet time and prayer. I was looking at a practice called TM, which stands for transcendental meditation, claims to be without religious obligation rather to simply a mind quieting technique. It is like a regular meditation, but a professional, in quotes, has to assign you a mantra to focus on during the meditation. How do you think this should be approached?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Trey, I would just say very carefully. And so I think everybody today has an overactive mind. We don't know how to shut off, tune out. I mean, regularly, I'll find my son asleep with his phone on, his computer on, and the TV on.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the stimulation that he is observing and It's an entire generation and it's a huge problem. And part of the reason, you know, it's affecting so many young people is they don't know how to turn off. They just don't. So their mind has to constantly be stimulated. And so here's the thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If there's not something stimulating in your mind, your mind will create something to stimulate it. And that can be through anxiety, that can be through anger, it can be through worry and fear. You know, the mind is really really good at doing what it wants to do. And so part of Christianity is learning to control your mind. And it's not easy, Trey.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I went through a really difficult time in my life and my mantra was Colossians three fifteen and here's the verse. I'm gonna summarize it for you because it's a little longer than what I'm gonna say. But it says, let the peace that comes from Christ control your thoughts. So that was my mantra whenever I was flying and I was overwhelmed with anxiety, whether I was at home wrestling with responsibilities of being a husband or a father or the pastor of a growing church, you know, part of most of my early adult life was leading in a position where I was not equipped to lead. Like I just I didn't have the skill set.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I didn't have a mentor. I mean, think about this. Phil Busby mentored me for two years and he was a great man. Sandals Church was bigger than any church he ever pastored in our third year. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And and I love Phil, but, you know, they didn't have multiple staff, they never thought of having HR. So I was I was kind of a pioneer, so to speak. Now I think there's a lot of education and training for pastors. So I was I'm just saying that to say I was a very anxious person. So let the peace that comes from Christ control your thoughts and then Paul has another phrase in between there that I'm editing and then I close with and be grateful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so gratitude I think is a control mechanism on anxiety. So anxiety is worrying about things that have could go wrong or have gone wrong. Gratitude is thanking God for things that went right and so it's really difficult for our mind to be grateful and anxious at the same time. So for example, I don't like flying. I mean, I mean, I've gotten over it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've done it a lot now, but I always have this rush of gratitude when we land. Like I just, you know, sometimes I'm on airplane, people clap. And so right. And at that moment, nobody's thinking about, you know, the turbulence, the crosswinds and landing. You know, they're not thinking about any of that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're just elated and grateful to arrive safely. And it automatically takes away all your worrying and anxiety. So what I ask Trey, Jesus to do is to give me his peace. So he says the peace I give is not like the world the peace the world gives. So Lord, I want your peace.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so give me your mind in this moment for my family, for my life, for my health, and take away my anxious mind. So I I me, my mantra is kind of an exchange and then direct me towards things I need to be grateful for. So if I'm anxious about my finances, what are some financial things that I'm grateful for? If I'm anxious about my health, I I give gratitude for the time that I have. If I'm worried about a future event, I go back and recite gratitude for times and places when the Lord has been faithful.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm. Because it's real easy for me to get wrapped up in, you know, the moment. And so I would just say we all have an over active mind. That's a consequence of living in today's age. And what we're going to need to do, and this is why I think the church is gonna be so important, gathering together without screens, face to face face to face contact, listening, embracing, caring, praying, those things are gonna become even more essential because so much of our life is digital and it's hard to know what's real.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So sometimes it gets in the way of my quiet time in prayer and and I would agree. What I would encourage you to do is this really was helpful for me. The Lord's prayer, if you say it from start to finish is thirteen point three seconds. That's my average time. Our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us of our debts as we forgive our debtors. Lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil for thine is the kingdom power and glory forever. Amen. Thirteen point three seconds is about my average. I don't know what I went there.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It felt like a little longer. But why would the Lord teach us to pray in such a short increment? Because I think praying longer is something that's learned. Like, you know, I always do weddings and, you know, we have two single gals in the studio. When you get married, don't do the three minutes of uninterrupted eye contact.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Couples always think they want that. We're gonna listen to a song and we're gonna stare into each other. Let me tell you, that's great for like and 15 then it feels like a year, like you just aged in dog years. So learn learn to practice slowly. So and just and just feel good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You say, you know, Lord, memorize that prayer and say it, and that can become a mantra.
Tammy Brown:So What do you think of this idea though of the transcendental meditation? The thing that's kinda curious to me is that you have to hire a professional to give you a mantra to focus on. That kinda seems
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And the mantra mantra here's the part of it I don't like is the mantra is a secret word that only you and the guide know or a sound. So they can assign you a sound that has meaning that only you know. And so I I I think I understand where this comes from is that they're trying to give you a power to escape reality and focus on something else. And so here's what I like about it is transcendental meditation is really unfocusing rather than focusing and that's the genius of it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I'm just gonna do this breathing, I'm gonna say this word, I'm just gonna do this and I'm gonna start and I'm gonna lower my breathing with this. And so it's really a technique of unwinding and even Christian counselors relate breath with stress. So when I'm stressed, my my breath is pitched and quick, when I'm relaxed, it's it's slow. And we all do this. I mean, you'll always ask me, so like we'll be in the car driving and I'll go and you say
Tammy Brown:What's wrong?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What's wrong? So sometimes I'm not even aware but what what what my body is saying is we need to we need to slow this down. We need to roll this out. And so remember as a Christian, the same word pneuma for spirit is the same word for breath. Same thing in the old testament.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Ruach, same thing, spirit and breath. And so when God creates Adam, he breathed ruach breath into him, but it's also spirit or life. And so our breath helps us gauge our anxious level and thoughts. So here's what I would say. If this person's a Christian who's respectful of your beliefs, who goes to a church who believes in God, I think 'd be a great thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But if I didn't know them and let's say they were a shaman or they were an atheist or they were into crystals or that's something like that would really, really bother me because I would want to be led by a person that's a Christian who understands me. Even if you go to counseling, think it's really important that you have somebody who understands your moral kind of sphere and encourages you in that way. I think it's really unhelpful for Christians to go to a counselor who's discouraging faith. I I think that's unprofessional and wrong. That that that's my opinion.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Unless, of course, your interpretation of your faith is just destroying you. So so I would say, man, if it's really a problem, I'd give it a shot. Tammy and I have done a thing called CERESET, C E R E S E T.
Tammy Brown:Cerebral, it stands for Cerebral Reset.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Cerebral Reset. That's been very, very helpful. And what I like about that, it was actually protocol that was developed for people with concussions, brain damage, brain issues. And what they've learned is the brain can reset, cerebral reset when it hears itself. And so it was about $1,500 and so I realized that's a lot of money but that was very very helpful to us and it had
Tammy Brown:handful of sessions.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, that's five sessions. It had some some real data to back up how it helps people. It really really helped me. I think you would say it helped you. But you know, if this is $50, a $100, as long as the person isn't cultish or praying, you know, chanting something over you or praying something over you, I know that you know, what's that thing where they they they give you a massage but they don't actually touch you?
Tammy Brown:Know what you're R. Rummy, Reiki. Reiki, Reiki.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Like, I'm always like, what are you
Tammy Brown:We're like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't want you Yeah. Pushing your energy over me. I'd rather rather you just rub my muscle. So
Tammy Brown:I just do two thing people need to be careful what, you know, maybe it's wonderful, but also like it sounds like by a professional, you're having to pay for this to happen, which we pay for counseling too. So I think, you know, I'm not saying you shouldn't pay for things. But I am saying, just yeah. Be careful what's their background, what's their belief system, what's their like you said, like, you had to pick a word of scripture, which the bible does say we need to meditate on all of God's word. Right.
Tammy Brown:Is our source of life. Is there a mantra, and I put that in air quotes, for you, Trey, that can be that place that you focus on. Right. What is god what is what is right? What is good?
Tammy Brown:What is true? What does god's word say? The other thing that you and I because we've both struggled with overactive mind. Yeah. And I'm not minimizing this.
Tammy Brown:We have real I mean, we went and got Saracet because of this. But we also had to look at some other things in our life like and I don't know how old you are, Trey. This does change over time. But like, what did you eat? How much caffeine are you having?
Tammy Brown:How much alcohol are you having? How much sugar are you having? What time of day? When are you logging off? Like, during that series of when we went to Sarasat, like, I didn't get on my phone past dinner time because I needed to reprogram my mind and my thought life.
Tammy Brown:And so what are some physical things that might need to be altered, tweaked, reimagined, reprogrammed in your life that are affecting your overactive mind?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. Yeah. And Trey, your phone's not your friend. I mean, there's there's just no there's no evidence anywhere that your phone is anything but bad for you and it just builds anxiousness. And so we just went to Costa Rica and it was right it was right during the start of when The US started bombing Iran and that that made me anxious.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I just had to put my phone away because I was like, Lord, there's nothing I can do. I'm in Costa Rica. And it was really really healthy for me to
Tammy Brown:Yeah. We both had that experience. We went for our thirtieth anniversary. Shout out to us. Making it 30.
Tammy Brown:Crazy. But where we were, there was not a lot of technology or reason for your phone or your phone would get lost or stolen. And so we weren't on our phones for almost a week.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:That's great.
Tammy Brown:And it we felt like we were gone for like a month. We did not realize the toll that just the constant information and being available had on us. And just like so refreshed. And I would say your mental like, first few days were like, we're bored. What do we Yeah.
Tammy Brown:And by the end, it was just like, we were so present and at peace. So I I do wonder, Trey, if there's some external things, patterns in your life, behaviors, and just habits that you didn't mean to have. Like, all of us have habits we didn't mean to have, but here we are having them. Yeah. That you might want to rethink.
Tammy Brown:And it's gonna it's a bumpy, tricky thing to dial back bad habits. Mhmm. But it's possible and worth it and really could
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Could help in the
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:same What I would say, Trey, is and for all of our listeners is I think that anxiety and worry and being overwhelmed, it's just the new normal. Healing is not normal. It's supernatural. And so really, really invite God into these spaces. And so, you know, if you go to this transcendental Meditation.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Meditation, I think your question as a believer is this, how do I ask God? How do I invite God into this space?
Tammy Brown:So yeah. Really good. Really good. Thank you for that question, Trey. Final question for today is from Amy from Roanoke, Virginia.
Tammy Brown:I do believe there are male and female bodies and a very small percentage of people who might be born intersex. However, after our bodies die and all that is left is just our spirit, do spirits have a gender? Question mark. Does gender matter in heaven? Question mark.
Tammy Brown:What do people who are intersex
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. So Amy Yeah. So this I didn't even realize this, but Amy, this is a classic example of platonic thought. So right? So my soul is this sexless entity that lives apart from my body.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The resurrection, the the beauty of the resurrection right. So there's two things as that every Christian needs to know about God is, you know, so I was watching this debate between Alex O'Connor who I wanted to have on the debrief, but I'm worried that he'd smoke me. And something Kenney said, the mathematician from Oxford or Cambridge, and he he said there's two things that every believer needs to know is one that we have a God who understands suffering. So we wanna know why is there evil? He understands suffering.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So the God that we believe in has entered into the human evil experience and he understands suffering. And then number two, this is N. T. Wright, the forgotten need for the resurrection. So Easter is coming up.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:A lot of us don't realize why Easter is so important. Easter is not that we go to heaven when we die because we believe in Jesus. Easter is dead people rise. That's Easter. So here's the thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're gonna hug your mom. You're going to see your dad. You're going to hug that child that you never raised. Like they're coming back in a glorious imperishable body, free from sin, death, and decay, and disease. And the way we get to be a part of that is by placing our faith and trust in Jesus who paid the penalty for our sin that caused our bodies to die and decay and and to bring sin and harm into the world.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, you know, we just we just need to to think about that. You know, you and I, we lost our third kid. Think her name was Trinity Monroe. I think she was 23 old. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So that was that was heavy for us and we talked about, you know, we never really processed that because we were just kind of grinding out life. But you know, people say, well, I'll I'll see I'll see them in heaven. I said, well, I think I got one better than that. I think we get to see her on earth. And and the beauty of that is when when Isaiah sees the future new earth, right, he sees children.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So where do children come from if Jesus says in the kingdom, we will be like angels and we will not create. I I believe that we get to raise those kids because the way
Tammy Brown:I've never thought about it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The way that you the way that you take away loss is when it didn't happen. So this this is what I I I just think so many people miss about the resurrection. How can how if you died, how can I mourn for your death if you're alive and we're hugging? You're not dead, you're alive. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:The angels ask Mary and Martha, why are you looking for the dead amongst the living? Or why are you looking for the living, excuse me, amongst the dead? We we we miss what you know, they're there to grieve. They're there to mourn, and the angel's saying, you can't you can't mourn for Jesus, he's alive. Right?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's and a lot of us as Christians have forgotten that because we've made heaven all about going to heaven. The end is about heaven coming to earth, God living with us and dwelling with us on earth and we have a king in Jerusalem and his name is Jesus and all the nations will worship him. You know, this week we're in Matthew chapter 25 and you wanna talk about the scariest verse. A lot of people say revelation is scary. I think Matthew 25 is scarier.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But it says it's there are a couple things. One, it says that the second coming will not be secret. It will be public and everyone will see it. Like lightning in the East, you see it in the West, that's what Jesus says. And it says all of the nations will be saddened.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Why would that be? Because he's real and they didn't believe. It's really and then he will send his angels to the four corners of the earth to gather the elect. So there's this moment where the earth kinda goes, oh man. He was the one and and we missed it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so so do I believe there you believe there are male and female bodies good? A very small percentage of people who are born intersex? Absolutely. I think it's like point zero six percent. It's really really small.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:However, after bodies die and all that is left is just our spirit, you know, again, that's platonic thought. We we we don't we don't exactly understand that in the way that Jewish people did two thousand years ago. We're so shaped and so framed by that, you know, and well meaning pastors will say this, he's not here. Well, their body is. And the way that we knew them, loved them, cared for them, appreciated them was in their body.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I think that's why well meaning God fearing Christians don't wanna die and go to heaven because there's something intrinsic in us that knows that we should be in this. We're not made to live in heaven apart from our body. There's this passage in Revelation where they ask the Lord how long Lord will we wait? And he gives them coverings for their disembodied spirits. So even in heaven, right, there's they they don't have their resurrected body yet.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They're waiting for the resurrection. The resurrection, when that happens, believers in heaven will be will have glorious bodies. The dead shall rise. And a lot of us as Christians forgot that. So do spirits have gender?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, are you a boy or a girl? Yeah. You're a girl. What would your Female. What what would your spirit be?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Be a girl. Female? Yes. Female. Like, because both male and female reflect the image of God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Genesis chapter one verse 27, God said, let us make them in our like in our image and our likeness and he created them male and female. So there's something about women that reflect the image of God and there's something about men that reflect the image of God and that is a good thing.
Tammy Brown:So So male and females and not just limited to our genitalia?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy Brown:I mean, is that
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So so the question is what happens to intersex people? I would imagine that the Lord is going to create them one way or the other with whomever they were supposed to be. So remember part of sin is disease. Things don't things don't happen perfectly as, you know, every child that's born healthy and normal is a miracle. And so I believe that God would God would know whether they were male or female and he would help them to be one or the other.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But I would say the intersex that that's a part of the fall and part of resurrection would be they would be clearly either male or clearly either female. And I realized that might be offensive to some of these people, but that part of it is just a biological mix up. And so God's going to restore that or make that right. And again, I don't wanna
Tammy Brown:In his way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:In his way because ideally, you would be, you know, one or the other. And in a person that is intersex, I would say God loves you. God cares for you.
Tammy Brown:You're you're not broken.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You're not
Tammy Brown:a product of something. Yeah. Sin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:No. No.
Tammy Brown:It's just the
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just a it's a part of the fallen nature of humanity and and God would restore that. And I think that most intersex people, although their bodies are intersex, would identify either more male or female. And part of the tragedy of how we've handled that as a culture as we've decided at birth and I think that the wisdom now is to wait and see which one they they more identify with.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. That's a very complex
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So again, I didn't mean to be anti intersex at all, but I think that's you know, in our culture, we tend to try to de shame everything. You know, it's like, you know, like the deaf community. I would say when Christ returns, they will all hear. And that's offensive to some deaf
Tammy Brown:see?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. The blind you see and the deaf will hear. And that's offensive because what they're saying is there's nothing wrong with us, but there is an aspect of your humanity that isn't working the way that it was designed to work. And so I would say, I love the deaf community. I care for you, but hearing is a good thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I would say the same thing to this person is it would be a good thing. I still think that they would be shaped by their experience and and and the good parts of that would still be a part of who they are as a person. So again, I didn't mean to me
Tammy Brown:hole whatever hole looks like
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:In that way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Wow. That was a really complex question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. Great job trying to navigate it. Hey, guys. Thanks for listening. And if you like the show and it's meaningful to you, you can subscribe it, like it, all of the things you know how to do.
Tammy Brown:Go to sandalschurch.combackslashsupport to help support support it so that we can keep this going. And until next time, we love you guys and we appreciate your questions and trusting us to be real
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:with you.
Celeste Contreras:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen to podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.