Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques

The goals we set often lead us away from the meaning we ultimately seek.

Meaning in life isn’t a concrete point we can route toward. That’s why we need what Arthur Brooks calls “proxy goals” — and much better ones than we typically choose.
Brooks, a professor at Harvard Business School and author of The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness, says that meaning can't be pursued directly, but rather through proxy goals — markers that lead us to what we're really seeking. “The big, complex, meaning-filled things in life, you can't see them directly,” he says. “If you want to find meaning, you have to have proxy goals.” The problem is that many of us have chosen terrible proxies. “Money, power, pleasure, fame, prestige; those are really bad proxy goals for the meaning of life,” Brooks says. “You're never gonna find it.”
In this episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, Brooks returns to the show, and with host Matt Abrahams, he explores how we can move from searching for meaning to actually finding it. From understanding the three components of meaning to transcending the “me self,” Brooks offers practical guidance for those who strive and strive, yet still feel like something’s missing.

To listen to the extended Deep Thinks version of this episode, please visit FasterSmarter.io/premium.

Episode Reference Links:
Connect:

Chapters:

  • (00:00) - Introduction
  • (02:40) - The Striver Mindset
  • (04:14) - Three Parts of Meaning
  • (08:04) - Me Self vs. I Self
  • (10:13) - Transcendence Explained
  • (12:18) - Proxy Goals
  • (14:58) - Meaning vs. Achievement
  • (19:51) - Daily Protocols
  • (21:41) - This or That
  • (23:15) - Conclusion

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Creators and Guests

Host
Matt Abrahams
Lecturer Stanford University Graduate School of Business | Think Fast Talk Smart podcast host
Guest
Arthur Brooks
Professor, Columnist, and Author

What is Think Fast Talk Smart: Communication Techniques?

One of the most essential ingredients to success in business and life is effective communication.

Join Matt Abrahams, best-selling author and Strategic Communication lecturer at Stanford Graduate School of Business, as he interviews experts to provide actionable insights that help you communicate with clarity, confidence, and impact. From handling impromptu questions to crafting compelling messages, Matt explores practical strategies for real-world communication challenges.

Whether you’re navigating a high-stakes presentation, perfecting your email tone, or speaking off the cuff, Think Fast, Talk Smart equips you with the tools, techniques, and best practices to express yourself effectively in any situation. Enhance your communication skills to elevate your career and build stronger professional relationships.

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Matt Abrahams: Many of us are
searching for the meaning of life,

but what is the meaning of meaning?

My name's Matt Abrahams and I
teach Strategic Communication at

Stanford Graduate School of Business.

Welcome to Think Fast
Talk Smart, the podcast.

Today, I'm thrilled to be
rejoined by Arthur Brooks of

Harvard's Business School.

Arthur studies and teaches courses on
leadership, wellbeing, and happiness.

He has authored numerous books,
including Building the Life You Want:

The Art and Science of Getting Happier
with Oprah Winfrey, and he has his

own podcast, which I really enjoy,
called Office Hours with Arthur Brooks.

Arthur's newest book is
The Meaning of Your Life.

Welcome, Arthur.

I'm really glad to be
talking with you once again.

Congrats on your new
book and on your podcast.

I and our listeners have benefited
from our first conversation.

I look forward to the second one.

Arthur Brooks: Thank you, Matt.

It's wonderful to be back on the show.

Matt Abrahams: Thanks.

Shall we get started?

Arthur Brooks: Yeah, let's do that.

Matt Abrahams: A lot of your work
focuses on helping strivers, of

which I am an A plus specimen.

Can you start by defining what you
mean by a striver and why folks

like me struggle with things like
fulfillment, meaning, happiness?

Arthur Brooks: The, a word that
has entered the American lexicon

over the past 10 years is slacker.

People hear about slackers, you
know, and everybody worries about

their adult kids slacking and living
forever in the basement and all that.

And I got that.

But that's actually not the
biggest problem that I see.

I mean, I teach at a fancy business
school like you, and we don't, there's

no slackers at the Graduate School of
Business at Stanford or the Harvard

Business School, there's no slackers.

And what I came to understand is that
to not be a slacker isn't enough.

On the contrary, I see a different
kind of pathology among my students

who are just absolutely addicted to
success, very, very afraid of failure.

They have a propensity toward
workaholism, and that's what

I call the striver syndrome.

And so when I say striver, I say
with a certain amount of admiration.

But I also understand that for you
and me, as senior striver's, and

the junior strivers that we teach,
it's not always an easy life.

It's actually not the best
way to live necessarily.

And part of the reason is because
happiness, which is, we've talked

about before, is a combination of
enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning.

For strivers, the enjoyment of
life can be really quite low.

Satisfaction with accomplishments is
through the roof, but enjoyment can

be really quite low and they don't
understand how to pursue proper leisure.

They often marginalize relationships.

And so I have to talk to strive
about how to learn how to be fully

alive, how to be happier people.

That's why I specialize,
I'm the striver whisperer.

Matt Abrahams: Excellent.

And I appreciate being called a
senior striver because you're right.

My students, I see them on the same
path that I'm on, and I'm trying to

encourage them to take time, to smell
the roses, to connect with people.

And yet, for me personally,
it's so hard to do.

Let's take a step back and ground
ourselves in the terms that we're using.

When you were previously on, you
defined what you mean by meaning.

Can you remind us of the three
components of meaning, and then you

added, in this new book, this notion
of presence and searching, and I'm

hoping you can help us understand
how those fit into the equation.

Arthur Brooks: Yeah, for sure.

So psychologists, and philosophers
for that matter, they really break

meaning into three deep questions.

The what is the meaning of life is
really three why questions of life.

Number one is why do things happen the way
they do, which is the idea of coherence.

You have to have a concept of why things
are actually happening around you.

Some people, their sense of coherence
comes from their religious faith.

Some people it comes from science.

I personally am a traditionally religious
person and I'm a scientist, so great.

And as was my dad.

My dad was a PhD biostatistician.

He thought that God created
the distribution of events.

I asked him one time, I
said, dad, what are miracles?

And he said, long tail events.

'Cause he thought that God created
randomness, which is one of the beautiful

things about the universe, he thought.

The second part of meaning
is purpose, and purpose and

meaning are not the same thing.

We use them interchangeably,
but that's not right.

Purpose is a sub component of
meaning, which is goals and direction.

It's the question, why am
I doing what I'm doing?

Where am I going with my life?

And you have to have an answer to that.

If you don't, then you're
just going in circles.

You're wasting your time, you're
frittering away your time.

Which is why leisure, properly understood,
is so critically important because

you're just sitting on a beach and
chilling or getting drunk or scrolling.

TikTok reels.

That means there's no purpose.

The reason it makes you depressed
is because it gives you a sense

of purposelessness, which takes
away your sense of meaning.

The third part is significance, which
is like, why does my life matter?

To whom does my life matter?

And if you don't know, or there is
nobody for whom your life matters,

you're gonna feel insignificant, and
that's gonna make you feel horrible.

It's gonna make you feel completely bereft
of meaning, which is why people need love.

People need love so much because
they need to answer the significance

question and significance question
is really part of meaning.

Okay, then the next part that you
asked about is how do you measure this?

In this case, there's really interesting
measurements to break the search for

meaning into two parts, how actively
you are at searching for it and how

successful you've been in finding it.

So the first part is literally
called search, and the second

part is called presence.

And you know, based on a bunch of very
well validated, scientifically constructed

survey, which is in the book by the
way, and on my website, people can find

out how actively they're searching and
whether they've been successful in finding

the presence of meaning in their lives.

And they can actually get a score on that.

And I can tell a lot about a
person on the basis of this.

And so what I find that I've
got a pretty good sense of

presence of meaning in my life.

I should, I'm 61.

But I'm super high in search, which is
why I'm a behavioral scientist because

I'm always looking about what could
be actually better out there, which

is not necessarily the most optimal
way to live, but everybody who reads

this book, they'll know what meaning
is and where they are in their search.

And that's really important because if
you're looking for anything in life,

if you're looking for California, you
better know what California is and

you better know where you are right
now or you're not gonna get there.

Matt Abrahams: So the presence and
search anchor you where you are

today, but serve to motivate you
for where you can be in the future.

Arthur Brooks: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So a lot of people that'll find
that they're seeking, seeking,

seeking, seeking, but their presence
is really low, which is why they

feel that they're at loose ends.

Other people, they find out that the
problem is that they've been scrolling and

drinking and playing video games, and that
doesn't count as seeking as it turns out.

And once they understand that, boy,
oh boy, it can be a real game changer

for how they're spending their time.

Matt Abrahams: I think a lot of the
value of the work that social scientists

do is help people understand where
they are so that they can then move

forward and change as they need it.

So meaning is coherence,
purpose, and significance.

You distinguish between
the me self and I self.

What is the difference between these two
and how do we move from one to the other?

I found this distinction
really fascinating.

Arthur Brooks: Yeah, no, that actually
comes from the work of William James,

the father of modern psychology.

What William James talked about, and
this is one of the ways, a little bit

further down in the book, about actually
how to find the meaning of your life,

is to get out of the concentration
on yourself, which is the me self,

and getting interested in the outside
world, which is observation of the

outside world, also known as the I self.

And William James correctly
pointed out that you're two people.

You're somebody who's looking
out and you're somebody who's

looking in at the same time.

We're the only species really able
to do this because we're the only

species that's truly self-conscious.

That's why homo sapiens, with its
enormous prefrontal cortex, 30% of our

brain by weight actually can achieve
consciousness in a meaningful way.

And that consciousness is the blessing
of maybe knowing the divine and the

curse of deeply knowing yourself.

Your golden retriever
doesn't know it's alive.

Doesn't know it's going to die.

Doesn't really know anything about
tomorrow because it doesn't have

anything really except the I self
and all the ways that it looks like

it's self-conscious and behaving
neurotically, that's just a simulation.

It's just figured out that you're gonna
be nicer to it if it acts a particular

way, and maybe you'll give 'em a treat.

It's what it comes down to.

But the fact is that most other
animals, they only have the I self.

And that's, by the way, the other reason
that your golden retriever is happier

than you is because it doesn't have
any me self, it's not self-conscious.

It's not thinking about itself.

There's no social comparison.

It's like, yeah, I don't know.

I have a shorter tail to the
golden retriever next door.

It just doesn't care is
what it comes down to.

So we need to be more like the golden
retriever and spend more time in the I

self, but we have to do that on purpose.

And in so doing, looking out, experiencing
the world, getting out of our heads, at

getting out of this self-consciousness,
then we're in the right hemisphere

of our brain and then we start to
think about questions of meaning,

and life just feels more meaningful.

Matt Abrahams: So what
drives us to the I self?

Is it curiosity?

What's the pull away from the me self?

Arthur Brooks: The pull away from
the me self, generally speaking

is what we call transcendence.

And transcendence means transcending
yourself either upward, toward the

divine or toward greater knowledge,
awe, music, beauty, or transcending

yourself by serving other people,
which is a really important thing.

And you know, one the best ways to
stop being miserable and to find

more meaning is to go serve somebody.

Matt Abrahams: So it's really thinking
about getting outside of yourself through

transcendence upward, or, I like how you
said, you know, with those around you.

Arthur Brooks: We'll call it
vertical and lateral transcendence,

there are different ways to do it.

So transcendence is one of the great and
ancient techniques of finding meaning.

And the reason that we now know is
because it intensely places you in the

right hemisphere of your brain where
questions of meaning can be adjudicated.

Matt Abrahams: So that's
why meditation, religion,

Arthur Brooks: Prayer, worship, totally.

Philosophy, studying the stoic
philosophers with great seriousness.

This does it.

The brahma muhurta, waking up before
dawn and walking without devices.

Why studying the works
of Johann Sebastian Bach.

Standing in awe of nature.

These are different ways for
you actually to transcend.

Matt Abrahams: All of those require
a quieting and slowing down as well.

Arthur Brooks: For sure.

And the way that you quiet and slow
down is stop looking in the mirror.

And the devices are
nothing more than mirrors.

Mirrors are a reflection of the self.

They're me self devices.

And by the way, literally one of
the things that I recommend to

people, don't look at yourself
in the mirror at all until noon.

Not one time until noon.

And the truth is everybody does this,
but there's a lot of research on the

fact that the more you look in the
mirror, the more miserable you get

because you're most aware of your flaws.

The truth is that almost nobody really
needs to look in the mirror before they

go out, and it's like no one cares.

And the less that you do actually use the
physical methods for engaging intensely

in the me self, the more you'll be in
the I self and the happier you'll be,

especially in the early hours of the day.

Matt Abrahams: Right, and I think we also
all need to turn off that self view and

all the remote virtual tools that we use.

Arthur Brooks: Oh, totally.

Matt Abrahams: You talk about this idea of
proxy goals and the value that they serve.

What are proxy goals and why
should we keep them in mind?

The one that really resonated with me is
it's about you and not how others see you.

Arthur Brooks: Yeah, yeah.

That's right.

That's a, and it's about you.

That's, you need intrinsic
goals, not the extrinsic goals

of how other people see you.

So proxy goals are funny.

I mean, we're recording
this right before Christmas.

But I know it's gonna be played later,
but it's on my mind 'cause Christmas

is coming up and you know, the ancient
tradition of the three wise men.

And the three wise men, what they were
looking for in the ancient story, whether

people are religious or not, they all
know the story, they were looking for the

baby Jesus and the state in Bethlehem.

But they couldn't see him.

They needed something that would
actually indicate that he was there

and that was the star of Bethlehem.

Keep going for the star and you'll
find the baby underneath the star.

That's what they had been told, right?

The star was not what they wanted.

That was a proxy goal and almost all
of the big complex meaning filled

things in life you can't see 'em.

You can't see 'em directly.

You can just perceive them and you
believe that they're there, which

means you gotta get proxy goals.

If you wanna find meaning, you
have to have proxy goals and

you better choose good proxies.

A big problem that people have, especially
our beloved strivers, is that they have

horrible proxies, money, power, pleasure,
fame, Instagram followers, prestige.

Those are really bad proxy
goals for the meaning of life.

And so I talk about what are
the characteristics of proxy

goals, and you named one of 'em.

They have to be things that are
inherently satisfying as opposed to

that which actually brings you some
sense of luster from the outside world.

People really, really, uh,
they're, they're gonna envy

me a lot if I get this car.

Sorry, that's a terrible
proxy goal for meaning.

You're never gonna find it.

That's the star of Bethlehem is if
it were out over the ocean, whoops,

bad proxy is what it comes down to.

And so that's kind of how to
think about, you know, are my

proxy goals really sitting over
the stable of Bethlehem or not?

Matt Abrahams: I really resonated with
this idea of trying to figure out what

the proxy goals are because many of mine
are taking me in the wrong direction.

And I really appreciated you
delineating not only what proxy

goals are, but the criteria by
which you should establish them.

It was very helpful.

Arthur Brooks: That's great, and
that's the chapter on calling.

Because finding your calling, everybody,
they say they want to do it, but one

of the biggest reasons that people
don't find their calling, and by the

way, finding your calling is one of the
greatest ways to find the meaning in life.

The way that you find your calling
is not saying, okay, I'm gonna go

see my calling suddenly, no, no, no.

You follow the right proxy
goals, your calling is underneath

them, is how it comes about.

And that means, for example, intrinsic
satisfaction, not extrinsic rewards.

A classic case.

Matt Abrahams: So it's the pot of
gold at the end of the rainbow.

You gotta find the right rainbow.

I asked our members of our Think Fast
Talk Smart Learning Community to submit

a question they'd like me to ask to you.

You're beloved by them.

And here's what I really liked.

In a world that constantly prioritizes
metrics of success, money, status,

power, how can individuals reconcile
the internal quest for meaning with the

external pressure to constantly achieve?

How do we stop using purpose as a tool
for career advancement and begin using

our career as a tool for purpose?

Arthur Brooks: You know, it's, that's
actually one of the reasons that you

find that people who are in not fancy
careers, they have a greater sense of

meaning than people in fancy careers,
than people who don't go to college

have less of a crisis of meaning
than people who do go to college.

This is absolutely true because
we're, um, again, there's the matrix

of the screens in front of us, but
there's the matrix that is our lives.

The machine-like character of our lives.

And so one of the things that I strongly
recommend to these people is it gets back

to an early part of our conversation, is
to make sure that a really big and healthy

part of your life is you getting better at
things that are not worldly achievement.

Becoming excellent at things that the
world is not gonna clap for you for.

And excellence, I mean,
strivers are gonna strive.

That's just the way
it's actually gonna be.

But are you truly great at
meditating in a way where you

understand yourself much better?

Nobody's gonna pay you for that.

Nobody's gonna write you
up in the paper about that.

You're not gonna get a trophy for that.

Are you better at
practicing your religion?

Are you learning things that
you don't need to know for work?

Nobody's gonna pay you for that.

The whole point is however, that to
start to think about excellence out of

the world of these extrinsic rewards.

That's really what it comes down to and
start spending time doing that, and it

will be so inherently satisfying and
meaningful that you'll never go back.

Matt Abrahams: It strikes me that
doing those things just to do them

for those intrinsic rewards, many of
those things are very humbling as well.

I've studied martial arts for
decades, and the more I do it,

the more I realize I don't know.

And it is in that humbling that I
do find meaning and groundedness.

Arthur Brooks: For sure, absolutely.

And we're not encouraged to be humble
about the thing that people are paying

us for, but the truth is that the
stakes, they feel lower for other things.

It's actually okay for me to,
I can say to my wife, honey, I

wish I were a better husband.

I wanna be a better husband.

I'm not the husband that
I actually should be.

And there's just this refreshment that
comes from the acknowledgement that

we're human in these particular ways.

And when we're very, very fine, very
special work machines, we're not

gonna find occasions to do that.

Matt Abrahams: Yeah, there's a
humility and a vulnerability that

I think really helps when you
find those intrinsic activities.

As we draw to an end, I typically end
by asking everybody three questions.

One I create just for them, and
then two that I've asked everyone.

But since you were on our show
previously, and people can learn your

answers by listening to episode 181,
I thought I'd ask you one question

and then follow up with a rapid fire
activity that I called this or that.

Are you up for this?

Arthur Brooks: I'm so up for this.

Matt Abrahams: Okay, so let's
start with the question first.

One of the things I appreciate so much
about what you do is that you provide

specific guidance on things we can
do, practical, tactical activities,

questions we can ask, surveys we can
take, meditations we can reflect on.

Can you share one or two of these
activities that you have personally

found really helpful that you have
deployed or continue to deploy that

really have benefited you, that, that
hopefully can benefit us as well?

Arthur Brooks: Yeah.

One of the things that I do when I'm
working with people for the first

time is I'd have them take a test on
what's called their affect profile.

And affect profile is the intensity
of positive and negative emotion.

When people experience a lot of intense
negative emotion, and half the population

is above the median in negative
emotionality, it's just the way it is.

Most strivers are above average
on negative emotionality.

Management of negative emotion
requires protocols and discipline.

It requires actually active
management, not elimination.

Again, one of the things that we've
done in the self-care revolution is

telling people that there's something
wrong with their sadness and anxiety.

So number one is having discipline
and protocol in your life that is

actually all about self-management.

So for me that's really, really
important and I've talked about and

written about this an awful lot.

It's gotten some attention, as a
matter of fact, and I have a morning

protocol and an evening protocol.

The morning protocol is to manage negative
affect and to increase productivity.

And the evening protocol is to manage
negative affect and enhance sleep.

And that's one of the things
that our practice very

assiduously and very seriously.

Matt Abrahams: And I encourage people
to listen to your show, or to read your

writings, to learn about your protocol.

I have tried to mirror some of it.

The 4:00 AM waking up is a little
hard, but the exercising in the

morning, I have certainly adopted.

Arthur Brooks: Yeah, you don't make
the perfect the enemy of the good,

and I recommend that people actually
figure out their own protocols.

I just give mine as an exemplar
of a place maybe to start.

Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.

And finding something that you can live
with and do repeatedly is really helpful.

Alright, you are the first
guest I've ever done this with.

I've had it done for me and
I found it really insightful.

So I'm gonna provide you pairs of choices,
and I'd like you to quickly choose the

one that you gravitate towards most.

So if I were to say summer
or winter, you would say,

Arthur Brooks: Winter.

Matt Abrahams: Okay.

And then after I give a few of
these, I'm gonna pick one to

ask you a little bit more of.

So I've got a couple pairings.

Ready to go?

Arthur Brooks: Ready.

Matt Abrahams: Zoo or aquarium?

Arthur Brooks: Zoo.

Matt Abrahams: Suitcase or backpack?

Arthur Brooks: Suitcase.

Matt Abrahams: Theater or library?

Arthur Brooks: Theater.

Matt Abrahams: Time or money?

Arthur Brooks: Time.

Matt Abrahams: People or ideas?

Arthur Brooks: People.

Matt Abrahams: Point it out or let it go?

Arthur Brooks: Let it go.

Matt Abrahams: Tell me
about that last one.

Arthur Brooks: So, my natural
tendency is to point it out, but

Matt, I've been married 34 years and
I've found that pointing it out does

not give me the best possible life.

And so appropriate self-management
means that my tendency is to point

it out, but my choice is to let it
go and life is a lot better usually.

Matt Abrahams: My answer to
that is exactly the same.

I think part of our profession has pointed
out, and yet part of our peacefulness

in our life might be let it go.

Arthur, you have helped us rethink
many things, from the meaning of in

our life to how we can strive for
happiness, and just in general how we

can create protocols to help ourselves.

Thank you for your time and
thank you for revisiting us and

best of luck on your new book.

Arthur Brooks: Thank you, Matt.

I appreciate it so much.

Thank you for your work and all
you're bringing to the world outside

of the classroom and to, to the
whole world through this show.

I love it.

Matt Abrahams: Thank you for
joining us for another episode of

Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast.

To learn more about communication
and meaning, please listen to our

miniseries on happiness and wellbeing.

Those are episodes 179 through 182.

This episode was produced by Katherine
Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams.

Our music is from Floyd Wonder.

With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company.

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