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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
Yeah. So that I mean, the interesting thing there is that you're helping them, but by doing so, you're also helping yourself.
Tyler:Yes. Exactly.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, I I have the same thing. I have a bunch of recruiters that call me, you know, every few months because a few months ago I mentioned like, no, I have a project currently, but it's about to finish in, you know, whatever in in March. Yeah. And then around like March is coming up, they're calling me.
Nick:They're like, hey Nick, How how's it going? You you spoke to me or my colleague, you know, six months ago. Mhmm. You mentioned your project will finish in the spring. How is it going?
Nick:And then recently, I could tell them like Oh.
Tyler:Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh.
Nick:We are kind of live now. This is what I always wanted to say. We are live. We're officially live. We are officially live.
Nick:Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment. How about recruiters, Tyler? Do you ever speak to them, or are you because I know you have a job. Like, do they approach you, and what happens if they do?
Tyler:It is the end of the year, so it is hire and fire time. So recruiters are reaching out. So it's the like, for context, like, end of the year, that's when budgets are made. Mhmm. And so that's when people see how much money they have left or how much they have left to spend.
Tyler:So that's when recruiters start to come out and do some poaching. Mhmm. So they they reach out. I don't really respond. I'm not looking to change today.
Tyler:But, yeah, it's I have a love hate relationship with recruiters, I think.
Nick:Tell me more.
Tyler:I think they they're helpful when you need their help. I guess it famous line. I guess it depends. You have to be I feel like there's a skill to being a good recruiter, and then part of that job is having a bit of technical awareness of, like, of the of the job that you're trying to fill. So I've seen many times where a recruiter has no idea about what development or design, and they're they're just basically listing off a list of requirements from the the job posting.
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:It's like, do you do you know this? Do know this? But they have no idea what these words are. It basically could be a different language. So there's a I I feel that there's like a disconnect sometimes.
Tyler:Because I think the best recruiters feel like partners, like they're trying to help you, and it feels like they're working on your best interest when in reality, they're working on the behalf of, like, the company that's looking for the best candidate.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. But it makes me
Nick:think of something that happened to me one or two weeks ago is getting a call from a recruiter, and you tell me about his design knowledge. He started listing all the requirements to me, and he told me, well, I do you are you proficient with design tools like Figma Sketch and Adobe XD?
Tyler:All of them?
Nick:All of them? Including the one that doesn't exist anymore? Yeah. So that's yeah. It's really a thing.
Nick:Like, you can really feel when they do not really know what they're talking about. The other way around is also true. I I have also spoken to recruiters who they were, like, within their recruiting company, you know, the large firm of of recruiters, where they were just a design recruiter. You know, whenever any of the other recruiters found someone or were approached by a designer, they would all always redirect that person to the dedicated design recruiter. Mhmm.
Nick:And that person, although not being a designer or having design a design background, by just being exposed to designers every day, every working day, you did notice that they knew more about what they were talking about, about design. So and that felt like, you know, like playing a home game instead of an away game. So that really helps. You know? And, you know, for this episode, I'm I'm just thinking about, you know, designer versus recruit as well.
Nick:Actually, we're we should be best friends. You know? Yeah. Because we have the same goal in mind. You know, putting someone on a great job that, you know, should recruiter will make some money, but then their designer will be happy and have a new job.
Nick:So one of the things for a recruiter, bit of advice perhaps if we if I may give it is, like, just to continue what you're saying, is that they should at least learn a little bit about design. Not to design themselves, but to know what the terms are, UX, products, UI research, and, you know, all the all the good stuff.
Tyler:Yeah. I think it's super important because when I when you're on a call and you can tell they have no idea to your point, they're just listing a bunch of requirements, it just feels like, okay. I'm less invested on my part. But if you're both coming to the same table with, like to the table with, like, the same like, an understanding, like, you understand what you're doing. I understand that you're a great candidate.
Tyler:That out that always works works best. Yeah. Yeah. True. I'm even wondering.
Tyler:I've what I've seen I've also seen design specific to your point, like, design specific recruiters that used to be designers. That must be, like, the major unlock. Like, I used to be designer. Now I'm hiring the best designers that, like, those those recruiters, I I've ran to, like, I think one or two of them. It's very interesting because they're, like, very knowledgeable, and it's not, do you know Figma XD or any of the tools that no longer exist?
Tyler:Yeah. And I'm not even sure what what companies still use XD or or Sketch even.
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:Mhmm. Probably some do, but I feel like the tool du jour is still Figma, but that's beside the point.
Nick:Yeah. I I think Sketch is doing very interesting stuff. I don't think you can even use XD anymore. I'm not sure. But indeed, it's not not a topic of not something to really take a deep dive on today.
Nick:You know what? Just to turn the table around for a moment, one thing I do notice is that designers some designers mention at least that nobody's replying to me anymore. I get generic responses back that I'm not going to be the one they hire. And, you know, that sucks, of course. But at the same time, I've offered help, free help for designers dozens of time this times this year, and about 75% of them do not reply to me.
Nick:You know? Which I think is very strange. Like, you have a senior designer offering free help just to to brainstorm a bit, you know, look at a portfolio or a resume or or, you know, some of the rejection letters that you that you that you've had while complaining about not getting an answer, and then they do not reply to me. You know, I just think that
Tyler:a bit of an answer. Strange.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, that's that's strange, isn't it? I'd like yeah. It goes both ways. You know?
Nick:Reply at least. You know? Show you Yeah.
Tyler:I mean, show that you're a social person. Void. Yeah. Yeah. If you're screaming into the void, like, you'd the natural response is, like, if someone reaches out, like, you're you're clamoring for their help because that's what you're asking for.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:I mean I mean, that's that's really, really strange. Yeah. So may maybe that's that's one one to put on the the side of the designer. Like, you know, improve the world, start with yourself, you know, and just reply to someone even if it's just, hey. Thanks, but no thanks.
Nick:I'm not interested. Something else I I wanted to mention is recruiter screening. You know, recruiters screen you as a designer, but I think as a designer, you should also screen a recruiter. I'm not sure how it is for your side of the of the world, but over here, like, some large companies, they have a pool of recruiters where they choose from. Preferred suppliers is what they call them.
Nick:Yep. So when I talk to a recruiter, I always ask, like, hey. But are you a preferred supplier for that client? You know? And if it's yes interesting.
Nick:Yeah. If it's yes, I know I I stand a chance. If it's no, then it's also a no from me because I already know that I can spend all my time in trying to get through the door, but they will always pick someone from the preferred suppliers. You know? So it's
Tyler:pretty different company. Is that, like, they have so someone's looking for to fill a position. Mhmm. And they're basically reaching out to their different suppliers saying, hey. Find me someone.
Tyler:If if one supplier gets one or the other gets one, I don't really care, but I have this one dedicated or, like, the shining star of my my suppliers that kind of recruit the best. I'll I'll I'll trust them over the others. Is that how that kind of works?
Nick:Yes. Yes. That's that's how it works. You know? And this is for really large companies and, like, government agencies.
Nick:They just have, let's say, three preferred suppliers that where they will go to first. Okay. Do you have a senior UX designer with experience in design systems? You know, something specific. And then they're like, yeah.
Nick:Let me find you one or two candidates, and then they have six to choose from. But they also you know, they have a portal where they put all their openings,
Nick:but
Nick:the portal is freely accessible. So then you also have, like, any other random recruiter can just look at that portal and see, like, they're looking for a senior UX designer with design system knowledge. And then they those people will start contacting people like, hey. One of our trusted clients is looking at us to help them find this this designer. I'm looking at your profile, and maybe you're the one.
Nick:Can we have a call? You know? But then it turns out
Tyler:that spicy.
Nick:Yeah. They're they're just an outside person, not a preferred supplier. So they're all the way at the end of the line, and the odds of you getting a position at the company with their help is very close to zero. And only if the preferred suppliers, all of them say, no. We do not have anyone, Only then they will open the job opening to the full market, and then it's you versus the rest of the world.
Tyler:This sounds like this is almost like TV drama. Like, if there was a show about the recruiters in the tech world, I'd watch it. It's very similar to, like, those house those realtor shows where you have your different realtors battling for who's gonna land the the client.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I think so. Yeah. So that's something I would always check if you if I'm well, I I always do check. Not not only if, but I I really do.
Nick:I always want to know the connection of the recruiter to the company that they are they claim they are connected to. And if you get a shady answer, you you you know it's probably not a good use of your time.
Tyler:That's a good tip. I had no I had zero idea about that.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that's why I asked, you know, because I I do not know if that's a worldwide thing or maybe in some countries, but over here over here it is for large companies at least. You know? And then because small companies usually don't have recruiters.
Tyler:Yeah. I feel like there's a at least for me, there's an attitude shifts I have towards recruiters, be it obnoxious or not. Like, if I have a job, I'm always like, oh, you wanna speak to me, do you? What do you have for me? But if I'm in desperate need, the conversation is like, oh, PS, please.
Tyler:I am the best for this position. I'll Mhmm. There's I have a bit of split personalities depending I mean, that's probably for everyone.
Nick:If you
Tyler:if you need it, then you're probably more desperate to kind of jump on that conversation than the other way around.
Nick:Yeah. Well, that that yeah.
Nick:I mean, that's that's just negotiation stuff. Like, you know, you want to have the thing you cannot have. And if you do if someone else doesn't really need you, like, it makes them even more interesting. You know, what I also do, like, if it's an interesting recruiter, I would still listen to them because it's always good to network. You know?
Nick:Even if you do not really have the time, it's good to be, you know, almost on their speed dial, you know, for later. And, also, it's good to just hear about, you know, current rates in the markets just to keep tabs on Sure. You know, how you relate to those numbers. Maybe because, you know, you say end of the year is higher and fire time, but it's also year end review and salary increase time. So it's it's good to know that the the market offers 20% more than what you're getting.
Tyler:Yes. Good. Can I tell you something that frustrates me the most about, like, the recruiter flow?
Nick:Mhmm. It's Of course.
Tyler:It's they they reach out, and then the message is oftentimes is well crafted. It's like, oh, Tyler, I think that you would be the perfect person. I came across your profile. It looks so much different than the rest. I think you'd be the perfect candidate for x company.
Tyler:Yeah. Please book a call with me. I'd love to kinda tell you a bit more. Mhmm. And then that kinda pumps up your ego a bit.
Tyler:It's like, oh, interesting. I'd be perfect for it. Really? This sounds so interesting. You get onto the call, and then it becomes status quo.
Tyler:It's like, oh, okay. Then it then you become interviewed. It's less of, like it sounds like from the from the the outreach, oh, I already know about you. I've looked at your CV, your resume, your LinkedIn profile. I know you'd be a perfect fit.
Tyler:Let me get you in contact with them right away. But then the first call is an interview of, like, who you are. Like, oh, do you have a resume? Do you think you can send it to us? It feels there's like a dis there's a disconnect between the outreach versus what that first conversation is.
Tyler:It's like, you'd be perfect. I'm gaslit. My ego's a bit stroked, and then I'm on the call, and then I'm it's part one of 17 of the interview process. Hey. Do you have a background in this?
Tyler:Do you do you are you proficient in Adobe XD? Oh, yeah. Worked how how many years, etcetera? And then it's always a let. I was like, okay.
Tyler:Now we're in the interview process, and it feels less like I'm special, but more of, like, I'm one of 300 candidates that you're speaking to.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's very frustrating for sure. I'm impressed that you even took the call.
Tyler:Well, I took the call because the email was so great, and I clicked on the book a calendar. Yeah. But then, like, once that the conversation switched to, like, what can you do for me versus, like, you like, the emails, like, clearly was crafted in a way that, like, you know all about me. You looked at you you you were scouring the universe of designers, and, like, I was the special one that you plucked out of your hat. But once that switched, like, I disconnect personally.
Nick:Yeah. Well, you know, looking at you know, we would I mean, we talk about AI all the time. Like, don't I think those emails, even the well crafted ones, are like, they are sent in bulk. They are they collect your info, you know, scraped by scraping, and there's no human connection at all. And then when they when I mean, that's fine if the person you're going to talk to is at least somewhat prepared and is not asking you the things already put in the in the email.
Nick:You know? Like, that would then it would be fine because then it doesn't really catch your attention. But now it does in a negative way, and it's it's also why we are designers. You know, we are thinking about this sort of stuff. I can imagine this being an onboarding.
Nick:You know, you Yeah. Are on the the email is the landing page where you tell all these great things, and then you click sign up. You're onboarding, and then it's completely different. You know, all you're talking about is this tool is free. It's great.
Nick:Just use it for free. Try it for free. Free. Free. Free.
Nick:And then you click, you onboard, and just before the first moment comes, you're like, well, now you have to pay. You know, and you're like, wait. Yeah. Wait a minute. It's free.
Nick:You told me it's free. Like, as this is the same thing. Like, you're the the yeah. The expectations that you that they give you, that they create for you, they aren't met at all. Yeah.
Nick:Really sucks. Right?
Tyler:Yeah. I feel like we're on a on a trashing recruiters bed, but I think
Nick:Well, no. Not at all because I already trashed designers just before this. Like like, you know, complaining about not getting an answer and then not replying themselves. But, you know, just to because now we're talking about how how recruiters should handle designers, but then designers should also handle recruiters not only by checking if they're preferred supplier and if they actually viewed your profile. But I think as a designer, like I mentioned before, you know, reply to a recruiter even if it's no.
Nick:Thank you. I'm not interested. I already have a job or I'm not looking to relocate or whatever. Just say no and a reason. You know, positive change.
Nick:But what also is helpful is if you have something like your your LinkedIn open for work type thing. Mhmm. You know? Yeah. I'm not talking about the banner, but you can put in settings like I'm available soon or right away.
Nick:Like, if you have a job, turn that off just to help recruiter not send someone an email that isn't even available, but also on your website. You know, do not have that green dots with the available for projects in q one when it's not the case. Yes. And being a nice person go also goes both both ways.
Tyler:Yeah. It's and yeah. To at the end of day, you're it's to your point, it's relationship building. So, like
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Regardless of, like, to your point, say no. Thank you. And they appreciate it. Like, if you say no, I'm not available because, like, nine times out of 10, no one responds if they're not interested. But if you're the person saying, oh, no.
Tyler:Thank you. But maybe next year, we can reach out. You started a bit of a conversation. And then at the end, when you're in a sticky situation looking for a job, you don't have to start from zero. You've already built up these relationships regardless of you you need them in the moment.
Tyler:You're Yeah. You're talking. You're they're top of mind when new jobs are coming up. You can say no, but when you're ready and, like, in your dire need, it's really good to have that in your back pocket, like, these relationships that you've kinda fostered over time.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that I mean, the interesting thing there is that you're helping them, but by doing so, you're also helping yourself.
Tyler:Yes. Exactly.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, I I have the same thing. I have a bunch of recruiters that call me, you know, every few months because a few months ago, mentioned, like, no. I have a project currently, but it's about to finish in, you know, whatever, in in March. And then around, like, March is coming up.
Nick:They're calling me. They're like, hey, Nick. How how is it going? You you spoke to me or my colleague, you know, six months ago. You mentioned your project will finish in the spring.
Nick:How is it going? And then recently, I could tell them, like, oh, well, I have some availability, like, part time. And then they're well, that's tough. Like, most of my clients are looking for full time people. And I'm like, yeah, I get it, but I have a few things I want to do first.
Nick:And then a week later, he's calling me back. He's like, you know, it's very rare, but I'm looking I I have a client who's looking for someone for two days a week, I'm thinking of you because, you know, that relationship is very useful. Even if you have to say three or four times in a row, like, no. I'm fully booked currently. You know, because that helps them as well.
Nick:They just have their records in their system like Nick, designer, Netherlands, booked until July. Okay. You know? You're in the system at least, and it it for sure beats having to send out 100 job applications while you're in need of work and getting ghosted all the time. You know?
Nick:So be open to recruiters, I think is what I want to say.
Tyler:Yeah. 100%. Because, yeah, foster those relationships, like, to your point. And during the that exchange that you just mentioned in that example, I imagine you were very pleasant to talk with. It's like, oh, not now.
Tyler:Maybe later. Mhmm. It's probably like you probably were a bit more and I like, actually, I'm a have a couple of projects. I would love to kind of jump on that, but I have a couple of things to to tie up versus Yeah. No.
Tyler:Not now. It's news. Talk to me later.
Nick:Oh, yes. Yes. Yeah. When I talk to recruiters, it's always like a fifteen or twenty minute phone call. You know, when I'm home alone like I am on most working from home days, like, it's a moment for me to just put in my my AirPods AirPods and go for a walk while talking to them.
Nick:So then I'm the silly the silly guy calling hands free in a language different than the ones spoke by the people around him, you know, and the crazy person speaking out loud while walking through a park. But, yeah, I I really want to take my time, you know, because, you know, it's you do good now, like, plant a seed, and it's really going to help you later on. I also always save their name as a contact in my phone. Yeah. And reply to their emails.
Nick:Another thing that's also helpful for recruiters from a designer's perspective is to make sure you have, like, the little artifacts that they need to have it ready. You know? So I have a subdomain, the cvdot, and then my website.
Tyler:Okay.
Nick:And it's an HTML version of my resume, including when it's been last updated, ways to reach out, download as PDF, and available from, you know, March or whatever. So they can just see they can always go there and see if it's accurate, and they they can call me or download. Like, it's very easy. Like, it's when they're asking me, like, okay, Nick. This sounds interesting.
Nick:Let's collaborate. Do you have your CV? You know? And then I'm like, well, no. I don't have a CV.
Nick:I don't have time for it. Blah blah blah. That really sucks for them because they have to wait. They have to put other other candidates on hold, you know, because they're waiting on you. But if you can just say, like, well, go to this link.
Nick:It's ready for you. You know? They're always super impressed, and it makes their lives a lot a lot easier.
Tyler:Interesting. So if if I'm curious. Like, if you have your CV kinda posted in that dot CV thing, how often do you suggest people to update their CV then?
Nick:I would always update it once the I'm available starting at date Okay. Passes. You know? So I updated mine in September, and then I told I wrote down, I think, if I remember correctly, I'm booked until the end of the year. So, you know, with Christmas and, you know, 2026 and all the changes, like so it's that moment has gone.
Nick:So it is a good reminder for me, you know, practice what you preach that I after this recording, I will update the time because I have projects to do in q one. You know? So I'll probably update it to, like, part time availability in q two.
Tyler:If only there was one reason AI agent to do that for you.
Nick:Well well, there there is. You know, we in a previous episode, we talked about ClotCode and and PHP and the whole setup. Like, that that subdomain has the same setup. So I do can just go into Claude and say, like, hey. Update my availability.
Nick:It's now q two part time, and then it does. So, you know, it's not a lot of work, but it's just one of those things that's always a second priority. You know, it's not super important. It's always kind of important, but there's also something that's more important, so it never gets done. You know, you really have to remind yourself to do it.
Nick:Call it a document hygiene. You know, it's it's it makes your life easier. Recruiters are your friend even though, you know, online communities and designer rants on social media make it look like it's not so. I really think it is.
Tyler:Yeah. I think that they are our friends end of the day. Like, it's just I think those conversations or those posts or those rants come out of, like, situations where someone's really in desperate need
Nick:Mhmm.
Tyler:And they're frustrated. I wouldn't take Yeah. I wouldn't if I was a recruit, I wouldn't take that personally. People are No. They work in an they work in a in a position where they're they're dealing with people's livelihoods and their careers.
Tyler:Right? So it's a very like, we spend majority of our day working. Right? So Yeah. That's a big part of our lives.
Tyler:And, like, we wanna love we love what we do, and and we'd love to work for a company or establishment that we'd we'd love to kinda show up for.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, that I think that's a very solid point in a way that, you know, the horror stories stories you read online are caused by horrible designers or horrible recruiters. You know, I I make it sound a bit stronger than it is, but, you know, there's a big silent majority of nice designers working with nice recruiters. I think all of this is mostly aimed at people feeling a bit insecure.
Nick:Like, a recruiter is calling me. I read this this terrible story online. Now I'm a bit scared. What should I do? You know?
Nick:Yeah. But you're right. There will always be bad apples on both sides, of course.
Tyler:Yeah. I mean, we're there's a human let's say we're talking it's for human versus human there or or people at the end of the day, like, we have things that happen in our lives. It could be having a bad day, having a good day, just things happen. Just keep that in mind. True.
Tyler:Take it with a grain take those experiences with a grain of salt.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. And and but I I think on top of that, like, the the the few takeaways, you know, we're aimed at designers mostly, so let's focus on those designer takeaways. Is that, you know, having an easily accessible and shareable CV ready to go at any time is just a good practice regardless of how you use it. You know, it can be just a link on your job application or a link on your LinkedIn or or that kind of stuff and and respond to messages in a kind way that's useful across the board.
Nick:So, yeah, I I think it applies everywhere.
Tyler:Agreed. Yeah. And, yeah, I'm gonna take that tip of constantly updating my my resume regardless if I need need it or not. I think it's a good tip, whether you do it once a quarter or or when you know you're gonna be free if you're doing contract work.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I mean, it's always the moment you need it is always a surprising moment. Like, if you would lose your job tomorrow, like, you wouldn't have seen it coming. And then I would rather spend my time reaching out to people compared to having to update and find my lost projects and all that kind of stuff. You know, senior designers don't have a portfolio because they're busy is is sounds more like an excuse than bragging.
Nick:Like, you know, see if you can find the one or two hours per month or per quarter even to just update a few things. I think it's it's annoying now, but it's very useful long term.
Tyler:Yeah. It's a quick fire away for a recruiter. It just happens to kinda reach out to you. It's like, yeah. I have it already.
Nick:Yep. Boom. Boom. Exactly. Stage.
Nick:Yeah. Well, exactly. Only 12 stages left.
Tyler:Yeah. Let's not get into that one because that's No. No. That's another frustration of mine.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I I have tons of stories there, and I imagine you have too.
Nick:So maybe that could could be a fun off topic episode at some point. True.
Tyler:That's a good Put that in the bank.
Nick:Yeah. Let's let's make that a teaser for some time. Yeah. Alright. I think that's all I had to say slash rant about networking and recruiters and designers.
Nick:Yeah. Unless you have something to say, but we No. No.
Tyler:Great advice on behalf of Nick. I think some really solid points there. I think any designer should get out your writing pads, take note. I think some good strategies there.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, that's what what you get after ten years in design and being part of all sorts of silly stories during those those ten years. You get very smart. Hopefully Alright.
Nick:Well, thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
Tyler:See you next time. That was a great episode. So if you like this content and wanna hear more, please like and subscribe.
Nick:Yeah. And if you want to see more, please go to designtablepodcast.com, Spotify, Apple Music, all the big players, and more.