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*Recorded in 2020* Professor Bill Newmann joins Aughie and Nia in the first two episodes of season 9 to discuss visiting presidential libraries. In this second episode, Dr. Newmann explains in detail how get the most out of a visit to the Presidential libraries
This podcast uses government documents to illuminate the workings of the American government, and offer context around the effects of government agencies in your everyday life.
Announcer: Welcome to Civil Discourse. This podcast will use government documents to illuminate the workings of the American Government and offer contexts around the effects of government agencies in your everyday life. Now your hosts, Nia Rodgers, Public Affairs Librarian and Dr. John Aughenbaugh, Political Science Professor.
Nia Rodgers: Good morning y'all.
John Aughenbaugh: morning how are you.
Nia Rodgers: Good how are you oh.
Nia Rodgers: hi bill hi i'm it so listeners, this is our part of our second part of our two part episode about visiting to folders visiting a presidential library.
Nia Rodgers: And we have bill Newman who's been to nine count them nine presidential libraries, he has not yet been to Obama, because that hasn't been built yet he hasn't yet been to trump because that's still in the imagining stages.
Nia Rodgers: So i'm going to ask you about those libraries and about like sort of the physical part of the library, but I want to jump in with something that you mentioned last episode.
Nia Rodgers: Which is you got a one o'clock Pole and a three o'clock pole so i'd like to ask you, so you walk into the library there you are you're you're handsome brilliant self and you walk in and you say I am here to do all the research and they say okay what's the process from that moment.
William Newmann: Okay, so.
William Newmann: Generally, if you're going to do this, you should start the process, long before you get there.
William Newmann: Okay, so you need to do some research and every library has and most of these are now online they have finding aids which will tell you what's there.
William Newmann: In various categories of holdings and I, for instance i'm always doing work on national security affairs, so the libraries have a whole section called national security files.
William Newmann: And within the national security files, there are agency files for a State Department Defense department.
William Newmann: Homeland Security, whatever agency and then meetings files for specific series of meetings which may be the National Security Council, or subcommittees and the National Security Council on name files for people things, called chron files which are chronological.
William Newmann: holdings of a certain office see about all that stuff and you look in the finding aids it'll tell you the names of all the folders so you have an understanding of what's what's there.
William Newmann: And then, so if you're looking for something particular you're looking into the chron file and you're looking to do research on something that happened know between November and December of 1972.
William Newmann: you're going to find like six folders for November to December 1972 and you say Okay, I want those.
William Newmann: And they also want the names of the people who worked in the offices that had something to do with it, so I want those and so you go through all those finding AIDS.
William Newmann: And then you'll get a good list of things, ultimately, if you're not sure how to do any of that you say to you contact the library and say the archivist hey I want to do research on this.
William Newmann: What would I do, and then they do a search of all the finding aids and then they'll print out something that i'll say here here are the 70 different boxes and the 300 different folders inside those boxes, where you'll find information about the thing that you're interested in.
John Aughenbaugh: Well, when you say folders are you talking Manila.
John Aughenbaugh: office folders.
Nia Rodgers: Yes, except archival quality.
Nia Rodgers: So they're slightly more expensive than your average Manila folder.
Nia Rodgers: I will, I will just point out to you, because as.
Nia Rodgers: In special collections okay so sorry is a brief library aside here paper is.
Nia Rodgers: deteriorates really quickly, relatively speaking, especially modern paper because of the level of acid in it and other things involved.
Nia Rodgers: Different than when we had vellum which lasts forever because it's animal skin or other things like that, and so paper has to be protected, you have to put it inside folders that will that don't.
Nia Rodgers: bleed onto the paper in any sort of way chemicals that would cause the deterioration of the paper, and so in some.
Nia Rodgers: Instances with special collections, you have to touch things with gloves or you can't touch things at all you actually have to use.
Nia Rodgers: Instruments where you can turn a page, with a little metal thing that allows you to touch the paper without getting your fingers on it that's true, especially of illuminated manuscripts and things like that not really many illuminated manuscripts I would think in the presidential libraries.
William Newmann: Nothing illuminating.
yeah.
Nia Rodgers: So, not so much a danger there, but there are various techniques of that kind of thing, but the folders are are slightly expensive sort of see they do visually look a lot like what the folders like a Manila envelope, but there are different quality.
William Newmann: And their most most of them are legal size, so the there in.
Nia Rodgers: That makes sense yeah very.
William Newmann: Hard sturdy boxes and then legal size.
William Newmann: Just because there's so much stuff in there, and you don't want anything leaking over the edge and getting bent so you got plenty of extra space in those.
William Newmann: But anyway, you go ahead and you can have the archivist do it, you know I always do it myself, because if.
William Newmann: The information is online i've just found it's easier for me to do it and then also have the archivist do it as well, and then see.
William Newmann: If I just in case i'm missing anything so then i'll make an appointment and say hey i'm coming in, is it Okay, no to come in, you know these three days or this week, and the answer is yeah of course we've got lots of space and when you show up in the morning.
William Newmann: You actually have to go through basically a tutorial on how presidential libraries work.
Nia Rodgers: At each one.
William Newmann: At each one.
Nia Rodgers: Every time okay.
William Newmann: And as soon as your library card which works for a year, you get actually have a presidential library library card and i've got a stack full library cards.
William Newmann: But you get that after you run to the tutorial and then expires, after a year, and after a year if you go back to the library, you have to do the whole tutorial again it's the same tutorial when every library.
William Newmann: it's just here's what you can and here's what you cannot do in a presidential library because we're trying to preserve all these records.
Right.
Nia Rodgers: And like with with the special collections at vcu or with any special what you call a special collection or an archived collection of special materials.
Nia Rodgers: You have to be trained in how to use that thing because you're not the only one who's ever going to want to look at that memo right, so you need to make sure that it's preserved for future scholars.
Nia Rodgers: that's OK, so now in the vc libraries there's a locker in which you push you you put your bag.
Nia Rodgers: And then you wash your hands before you're allowed to go into the reading room.
Nia Rodgers: And then, sometimes they give you documents that aren't particularly special and you don't have to have gloves you just can read the documents.
Nia Rodgers: The way they are, and sometimes you have to take specialized like there's further specialized things that have to be done, are you allowed to carry things into the library with you like, here, I think we allow.
Nia Rodgers: i'm pretty sure we allow you to bring in a piece of paper and a pencil, but you have to show them to the archivist so that they know what you're bringing in and then you have to show them what you're leaving with that they know that you're leaving with the same thing you came in with.
Nia Rodgers: Is there a similar process there.
William Newmann: Exactly you walk in, and in some of them have more.
William Newmann: I would i'm not sure if security is the right way, some of them are more particular than than others, so, for instance i'll come in and i'll have my my list of folders in boxes.
William Newmann: Right so i'll say you know, this is, these are the the 20 boxes and then within each box, these are the.
William Newmann: dozen or so folders that I want to look in so I have my print out and I just referred to as my cheat sheet for the library, so I know what i'm looking for, so I know what to ask for.
William Newmann: When I go in and that i'll have that in a in an actual Manila envelope and i'll bring that in and they'll say Okay, I can bring that in I can bring pencils if I want, though they provide pencils so usually they say you know don't.
William Newmann: don't bring your own pencils but no pens, you know no backpack no no jackets or anything like that, and in some of the libraries what they'll do is they'll go through all the paperwork that I bring in and they'll stamp it.
William Newmann: As accepted.
William Newmann: And with a timestamp on it, so they can check to see if it's different.
William Newmann: When i'm leaving.
Nia Rodgers: Ah.
William Newmann: Well i'm not.
William Newmann: walking away with anything.
John Aughenbaugh: and allowed to bring in a computer.
William Newmann: Have you bring a computer.
William Newmann: cameras so i've used cameras, but now actually when I got got rid of my flip phone I actually do most of this stuff and I just take pictures of the documents on my phone.
William Newmann: So I don't actually read the documents when i'm there i'll go in and i'll crank out about pictures of 700 pages worth of documents in a day.
William Newmann: And at the end of day I love them on my computer at home or at the hotel and then at the end of the trip.
William Newmann: that's when i'll sit down and or when i'm starting to write i'll sit down and i'll go through several thousand documents from a specific library and say Okay, what do I have and what's what's useful.
Nia Rodgers: And we have a cradle scanner at vcu do the the libraries have scanners, where you could scan material if you wanted a high sort of a high resolution copy of something.
William Newmann: You know I I don't know, but I think with most of that stuff they rather you just.
William Newmann: not put that on anything.
William Newmann: They do have.
William Newmann: In the Carter administration early on, I wanted to copy a lot of material, but they did the copy.
William Newmann: Of the material because they've got to take the staple out if there's a staple in there and or copy it because they don't want anything folded.
William Newmann: So they take care of it so it's just easier to just take pictures of everything, but when you take pictures, you have to be really careful, because a lot of the material, it says classified on.
William Newmann: or top secret for the stuff i'm working on, so what they do is they give you a little slip of paper, and it was a slip of paper that they laminated and it's probably like an inch tall, and maybe like five inches wide.
William Newmann: That says no, this material declassified under and it says the specific law was declassified under and it says no Nixon presidential or Johnson presidential library
and you're supposed to put that on every copy and put that somewhere on the page when you take a picture.
William Newmann: So that no one will say hey that's classified where'd you get that from.
John Aughenbaugh: yeah because if you went if you went to go ahead and put that in a book.
John Aughenbaugh: Right.
John Aughenbaugh: Then you got all kinds of legal issues without that notification you got some serious legal issues if you know, in a book UK you have you know photo image is.
John Aughenbaugh: Class material right.
Nia Rodgers: And also, if the NSA sweeps your records on your phone and all they see is classified classified classified classified in your pictures.
John Aughenbaugh: The old woman criminal.
Nia Rodgers: Exactly that's that they're gonna be like.
John Aughenbaugh: bill Newman enemy of the state.
Nia Rodgers: Exactly no lie.
William Newmann: here's a story that relates to that.
William Newmann: Oh OK, so I was told this story by one of the arguments that that makes a library is.
William Newmann: A little slip.
William Newmann: The garden said Okay, you know, make sure you put this on their documents, because here's what can happen so and a couple researchers who were from from Israel and then come to the library and they forgot to put the little pictures on.
William Newmann: So they're flying out of the United States and they've got this bag filled with.
William Newmann: You know, thousands of pieces.
Nia Rodgers: Of.
William Newmann: paper that owned.
William Newmann: By secret.
Nia Rodgers: Oh man.
William Newmann: That they had copied from the Nixon library because they're doing research on Nixon perfectly innocent, but they got stopped that people opened it up and said Okay, what is this.
William Newmann: And they got arrested.
William Newmann: And they had to call up you know eventually the FBI calling up the Nixon archives and they said oh yeah they were here for three days, this is no stuff it's all declassified nothing to worry about, but they were not really happy for the hours that they were held.
Nia Rodgers: Well, and i'm assuming that sometimes the libraries clothes, in which case there wouldn't be a person to answer that for 24 to 48 hours do the libraries close by any chance on Mondays the way museums, often close.
William Newmann: No they're open.
William Newmann: Like set thanksgiving Christmas.
William Newmann: Okay, the normal things and most of them are closed, right now, since pandemic, they just closed them all down.
Nia Rodgers: yeah a lot of public libraries are closed.
Nia Rodgers: For a variety of reasons.
John Aughenbaugh: So let's get back to the let's get back to the process bill, so you go there with your cheat sheet of boxes and files that you want.
Nia Rodgers: And you sit down in the reading room.
John Aughenbaugh: Okay, now, you talked about a one o'clock full and a three o'clock full.
Nia Rodgers: What does that mean.
John Aughenbaugh: So let's say you get to the library, you know bright and early you know what 9am.
John Aughenbaugh: Okay, and you give them this list right How long do you have to.
John Aughenbaugh: call your heels before all of a sudden these boxes potentially full of files get put in front of you.
William Newmann: Usually it's about 45 minutes for them to go find everything and make sure it's all there plus all the other things that they're doing at the same time, because the work that they do for for someone who's actually sitting there when they go get the boxes.
William Newmann: they're doing a zillion other things at the time, which is why they say will pull materials on the hour, so if I finished with one set of boxes at.
William Newmann: i'll go and fill out my next set of pull slips for everything that I want and i'll put it in usually there's a box sort of an inbox you put in the inbox and at one o'clock.
William Newmann: somebody's going to come around and pull everything out of there and then start finding everything and they'll bring it in and up in a cart.
William Newmann: When you know typical library card which will have most libraries of 18 boxes, at a time, is what you can have because that's how many fit on one car.
Nia Rodgers: Okay that's so so if it so you can't tell them ahead, I want these boxes, they wait until you're there to pull the materials.
William Newmann: Some will do it i'll say i'm coming in and i'll be there at 9am on on Monday and some some of the archivists and it could be, because i've been into them several times they've darkness will simply say hey you know send me your first first poll.
Nia Rodgers: Okay.
William Newmann: And i'll do it Friday afternoon.
William Newmann: So that when you get there there's a card with your name on it already, and so, and they actually do there's a card with your name on it, so if i'm working until the library closes at 430 or five and i'm halfway through my card.
William Newmann: But i'm coming in the next morning they'll simply say you know Okay, no we're closing so we'll just take your card and tomorrow morning, when you get here we'll roll it out, put an extra desk.
Nia Rodgers: Okay, so is there anybody in the room sort of keeping an eye on people not being shifty with the stuff in the boxes.
William Newmann: Oh yeah and actually it's they're really kept, first of all those closed circuit TV like.
Nia Rodgers: Okay.
William Newmann: let's have cameras in the room to make sure when you sit everybody has to sit, so that the archivist at the front of the room can see what's on your table, so you can't sit with your back to the archivist.
William Newmann: which would be.
John Aughenbaugh: So this is like you know, in a classroom dorian exam to make sure that students are GD right right.
Okay.
John Aughenbaugh: yeah.
William Newmann: And you can have one box off the cart at any one time, if you take a second box off they're going to come over and say stop, and if you keep doing it they're going to say leave.
William Newmann: So one box and one folder out of the box at any one time.
Nia Rodgers: Okay.
Nia Rodgers: Yes.
William Newmann: A card a very big long laminated card that you stick in.
William Newmann: The space, so the you know, to put the folder back in the right space.
Nia Rodgers: And I see yeah.
William Newmann: And then, when you put the folder down, you can only have one document out facing you at any one time you can't pull the document out and put it to the
side and look at another document and they're very careful on that and i've seen them come over and and.
William Newmann: sort of admonish people who do it the wrong way, but what you're supposed to do is pick up one page and take it and fold it over nicely on to the next page when you're finished with it, you don't grab it by the corners.
William Newmann: You have to be very careful with it and you don't flip through things like it's a like it's a book and you're looking through the page.
John Aughenbaugh: or magazine yeah yeah.
William Newmann: open it up slowly, and then you follow each one, at the same time, even if you want to go to the end you're doing one page by page by page, to make sure that nothing gets caught torn.
Nia Rodgers: Okay, so you're turning pages like you're in a book, but very slowly and methodically.
Nia Rodgers: Right okay and and you can take as many pictures on your phone as you want like you could take a picture of each single page or multiple pictures of a page if you really wanted to there's no there's nothing stopping you from, that is, are you allowed to use flash photography.
William Newmann: To get us a lesson.
William Newmann: Okay, other people in the room.
Nia Rodgers: And documents actually.
Nia Rodgers: can be hard Ly flash right.
Nia Rodgers: That same thing as paintings, for I mean why you can't do that in a museum so when you're hanging out in there.
Nia Rodgers: Are there like 50 scholars hanging out in there are there, like five scholars hanging out in there Does it depend on the library Does it depend on.
Nia Rodgers: I mean, what is your general and I know you don't keep a census of how many people but i'm just like wondering you're just sort of general anecdotal memory.
William Newmann: I would bet that in these libraries you couldn't fit more than 15 oh.
Nia Rodgers: Okay.
William Newmann: Well done, research.
William Newmann: that's depending on the size eisenhower's a little bit bigger reading room than some of the others, but I think that's about all you could fit in there, but i've never been in any of them were there have been more than five people.
Nia Rodgers: Oh okay.
William Newmann: In the room and that's it the lbj library and one of the cool things about the lbj library is the reason why you get more people is that because some the campus of the University of Texas.
William Newmann: If you're I teach a foreign policy class five I was a foreign policy teacher they tell you, he said, part of your assignment is to do research in the library.
Nia Rodgers: yay.
William Newmann: And the students.
William Newmann: library, you know, which is the next building over.
William Newmann: From the public policy school the lbj school of public policy and they'll just come up and say you know hi i'm in this class and i'm supposed to etc, etc, and i'm looking for this and the arguments just goes ahead and helps them out.
William Newmann: And it's it's a really great learning experience for them, because I sit there and say i'm now here sitting and looking at this document.
William Newmann: With with a handwritten note on it, you know from Lyndon Johnson right there, and you know circle something and says more.
William Newmann: You can look at that and go that's wow there it is.
Nia Rodgers: A form of archaeology.
William Newmann: In in.
Nia Rodgers: A lot of ways which any good archaeologists will tell you there's a whole lot of dirt and not a whole lot of pottery.
Nia Rodgers: Right like there's a lot of things that you look through that aren't related to the thing that you want.
Nia Rodgers: Because there's hardly ever a note, I assume, on the top of your folders that says, dear bill, this is the needle in your haystack enjoy right like XO XO the archivist right like that's not really how that.
Nia Rodgers: How that works, but i'm fascinated by the idea that I think that people don't realize how much material we're talking about here.
Nia Rodgers: It you're talking about I assume thousands and thousands and thousands of boxes because everywhere, I President goes like your earlier example of my grandfather met.
Nia Rodgers: President Johnson, and I know there's a picture, they get their pictures taken.
Nia Rodgers: Thousands of times a day at various events and all of that is is White House for to all that White House photography is owned by the people I assume it falls under the same kind of category as what you're talking about so there's files and there's photographs are there other.
Nia Rodgers: ephemera in the libraries.
William Newmann: Yes, there's all kinds of stuff that they do have things related to the campaign.
William Newmann: As well and I don't do research on the campaign, but that's got to be fun stuff to look through.
William Newmann: All of that that extra stuff but even in the National Security stuff you, you find things that you don't realize that.
William Newmann: that people do so, you know i'm looking through national security files of Alfred Jenkins, who was an nsc staffer.
William Newmann: On China in the Johnson administration and and all the memos he was sending to the National Security Advisor.
William Newmann: mcgeorge bundy and then what Rostow just amazing analyses of what's going on in China, we want to reading these and saying, these are just.
William Newmann: Incredible just how real he was and how much information we actually had about what was going on in China.
William Newmann: Much more than, for instance, the general public knew that we had know all this stuff but at the same time you're looking at these great memos and then they'll be a memo that says, you know someone so from the Asian American.
William Newmann: No coffee association of greater Los Angeles area has a question about China.
William Newmann: And once someone from the administration to give them a call, and we should respond to him.
William Newmann: No, can you answer this correspond or can you give him a call right and the subtext in it, which of course is not mentioned, is that this person has contributed to the president's campaign.
John Aughenbaugh: Why is.
William Newmann: someone from the administration is going to reach out respond to them and then they're going to say wow I just spoke to someone from an nsc staff and told him my opinion on China, and he said Oh, thank you very much, and then there's a memo you know that says here's the memo the conversation.
Nia Rodgers: Here, let me write another check to the presidential campaign.
Nia Rodgers: yeah cuz I got constituency services at the highest possible level.
Nia Rodgers: Okay that's an interesting thing to look at like that'd be a really cool thing to study is sort of the leveraging of that.
Nia Rodgers: of government and donation, but that's a separate question sorry I get all interested in research questions and then I forget we're actually talking about something entirely different which is sort of what else is there.
William Newmann: The other avenue about that, I just want to add one more thing about, that is, is that it's actually useful for the nsc staffers because they're talking to someone who actually has influenced the public opinion.
William Newmann: So they find out, you know what what would have people with what does the average person, you know in greater Los Angeles, who makes coffee and this association think of our policy towards China.
John Aughenbaugh: Well, I mean in again that's part of pluralism right.
William Newmann: yeah.
John Aughenbaugh: I mean say what you want, about interest groups when if you're a presidential administration and it doesn't matter if its domestic policy, or you know US foreign policy.
John Aughenbaugh: interest groups are going to go ahead and give you an idea of how their members think of your policy work that affects their Members right, so I mean you know.
John Aughenbaugh: This is one of the values of interest groups, I mean we often you know criticize them for their outsized.
John Aughenbaugh: Okay influence in American politics, but you know if you're a presidential administration and you want to know what they think about, for instance.
John Aughenbaugh: You know our policy towards you know Canada right okay there's probably interest groups so we'll go ahead and say hey if you give us a half hour Okay, with some of the White House staff, we will tell you right, we will tell you.
Nia Rodgers: I sort of form of targeted polling I guess.
Nia Rodgers: or right like that's a very targeted group of.
Nia Rodgers: People that you would not be able to find in a regular poll.
Nia Rodgers: In.
Nia Rodgers: yeah that's an interesting I didn't even that's a really cool thing i'd even think about that so.
Nia Rodgers: So you get to basically keep a cart going for as long as the number of days that you're.
Nia Rodgers: That you're going to be there and then, I assume, if you don't finish you just say, please put those back i'll be back in a month for another long weekend visit or whatever.
William Newmann: Right yeah whatever I don't finish.
William Newmann: You know, they say Okay, if your time here is done okay everything disappears, and of course i'm because i'm the way I am i've a record every box i've ever pulled out, and what day I pulled it out, you know all these records so i'll know, three years from now.
William Newmann: There was a box that had a bunch of things in it that weren't there and i've done mentor declassification requests and i'm going to pull that box again and see what happens.
Ah.
Nia Rodgers: And that also helps you know if if things go missing, which is a good check and balance, although I assume they also check the folder when they get it back to make sure that everything.
Nia Rodgers: Oh yeah that they said was in it was in it.
Nia Rodgers: But it also allows you to say.
Nia Rodgers: If something went missing, I can tell you what day it was there, like it helps track I don't know there's like a really cool way that libraries interact with high with high users, what we call our.
Nia Rodgers: Well, we call them friends right friends of the library not meaning friends, the people who joined but friends, meaning people who use the library on a on.
Nia Rodgers: A really regular basis, a lot of times they notice things that Librarians.
Nia Rodgers: don't notice because there's such volume, they can say I can't count the number of high end high user patrons who've come up to me with a book that's starting to come apart in the binding.
Nia Rodgers: That we would not have noticed, but they come up and say hey can you can you guys take a look at this maybe we need to buy a new copy because it's something that they use frequently right so that's kind of a cool.
Nia Rodgers: relationship that gets built over multiple years, just like with you going to a regular to a library regularly and them saying we trust that you're going to do it give me your list and we'll pull your first.
Nia Rodgers: Like we trust you're going to show up because if you had said you were going to show up and you flake.
Nia Rodgers: Right and you're not consistent then they're going to be like yeah we'll just pull that when you get here, you know, like kids they don't want to have those boxes sitting out if they don't have to the chance of a cart falling and the nightmare scenario cart falls over.
Nia Rodgers: And file boxes fall over and then you have to try to figure out what's supposed to be in each file and, if you think that doesn't happen in libraries, let me help you understand cards fall over all the time I have had.
Nia Rodgers: In my career i've worked in libraries close to 30 years i've probably turned over seven or eight cards like they you just turn a corner too fast or we'll get stuck and the next thing you know.
Nia Rodgers: Everything that was an order isn't and it's all over the floor and all over you and you just have to make it up and keep going.
William Newmann: After hours kart races right.
Nia Rodgers: Oh yes.
William Newmann: Well, you guys hanging out.
Nia Rodgers: In the mornings before we open at capital it's happened a couple of times.
Nia Rodgers: I won't say who was.
Nia Rodgers: involved, but it's happened a couple of times.
John Aughenbaugh: So.
Nia Rodgers: We also shout when you guys aren't around in the libraries closed.
Nia Rodgers: Because we don't shout during the day and so there's a lot of.
John Aughenbaugh: The morning with mana show us if we get too loud but.
Nia Rodgers: yeah the morning man there's some serious yelling up and down the stairs all kinds of stuff that goes on.
But bills.
John Aughenbaugh: You mentioned the museums.
John Aughenbaugh: And I would be remiss.
John Aughenbaugh: If I didn't ask you, on the record publicly Have you ever when you've gone to museums, perhaps had museums send information to colleagues and friends okay.
John Aughenbaugh: Like calendars or catalogues of things that we might want to purchase from news museums, without letting your colleagues and friends know that you've done this.
Nia Rodgers: This sounds like a trap question.
William Newmann: You know, I have to say that I don't think I have but I guess, I must have.
William Newmann: A question.
pointedly.
John Aughenbaugh: The reason why I ask is.
John Aughenbaugh: In the year, subsequent to you visiting the Reagan library, a few of your colleagues for easily three years afterwards begin to receive catalogs from.
John Aughenbaugh: The Reagan that you see them.
John Aughenbaugh: Advertising various gifts that we could perhaps purchase from the museum gift shop.
John Aughenbaugh: wow yes.
John Aughenbaugh: I you know.
John Aughenbaugh: We somehow got on a mailing list bill.
William Newmann: Like a surface mail list.
John Aughenbaugh: has been Okay, well, here I would receive a nice glossy catalog okay from the reiki museum gift shop of of gifts that I perhaps might want to purchase for myself.
John Aughenbaugh: Okay, others.
William Newmann: That okay so actually in my Defense that couldn't be me because I don't know your address.
John Aughenbaugh: Was.
John Aughenbaugh: It was sent it was sent to the department wow.
John Aughenbaugh: Okay, yes.
John Aughenbaugh: Actually I.
William Newmann: don't remember I don't remember doing that.
William Newmann: But that's like something I might do.
William Newmann: wow okay.
William Newmann: Okay, usually have no record.
Like.
William Newmann: you've been in an archive you're reading oh material, the small print for three or four days, who knows what you might sign up.
John Aughenbaugh: On the other hand, an Nea and listeners, I will say this bill in his various travels to presidential libraries has been extremely generous with his.
John Aughenbaugh: Colleagues, and bring you back stuff that he thought that we might enjoy so in my office in the political science department, I actually have a baseball because it's building and as many of you will know i'm a huge baseball fan, and on the baseball it's.
John Aughenbaugh: His face every mix.
John Aughenbaugh: I also have a yo yo.
John Aughenbaugh: Okay, from.
John Aughenbaugh: Was it the Nixon library Okay, I think I have a yo yo from the Nixon library okay.
John Aughenbaugh: But nevertheless.
Nia Rodgers: So there's a gift shop.
Nia Rodgers: involved in these.
Nia Rodgers: Yes, in these institutions.
Like.
John Aughenbaugh: It according to the catalog of the Reagan museum.
John Aughenbaugh: Okay, some high end gifts, you know, like gifts that might cost like you know five $500 1000 etc right.
Nia Rodgers: Okay, so is that part of the alright.
John Aughenbaugh: that's the museum.
Nia Rodgers: So right that's the museum and the museum's can be a money making concern, because they are not federally funded the libraries are not a money making concern.
Nia Rodgers: So that's why it doesn't cost you anything to go into the library part why it might cost you something to go into the museum part because in museums are privately funded and and are not 501 C three the way a library is is that accurate.
William Newmann: Right, so the the museum the library.
William Newmann: They usually in the same same building but generally separate entrances.
William Newmann: Okay, for a lot of them, it depends on the on the library, if you do do archive research, though, you can get in the museum for free.
Nia Rodgers: Okay.
William Newmann: So you know you're a researcher you got the little researcher badge.
William Newmann: Around your neck, and they say you know go ahead and do whatever you want, and the researchers, you see the.
William Newmann: The geeky researchers at the end of the day, are walking around they can barely see our eyes are fairly open or they're just swollen and you're walking through the gift shop going I can't remember what President i'm studying.
William Newmann: And this is looks good that looks good and and I always walk away with a big package of stuff.
Nia Rodgers: So that's smart on their part here read some of this now go over here and spend some money on things you can't really see so I want to ask you and I know there may not be an in depth answer to this, but we have neglected the first lady's in this discussion.
Nia Rodgers: First, ladies are not elected I assume that there are no rules about their papers or their materials as far as being within law, since they are not elected officials, but are there papers gathered that we know of.
William Newmann: As far as I can tell, I checked on this well when you'd asked me about it before, and as far as I can tell those papers, for the first lady's office because that's a taxpayer funded office.
Nia Rodgers: Right right it's one of the 4864 presidential office of the President okay.
William Newmann: So those things are there.
William Newmann: As well as far as I can tell, and now i've never done research on them, but if you want to do research on first ladies and the things that they do, because each first lady.
William Newmann: and eventually first gentleman will will pick a thing now here's my here's my policy end of it, you know and whatever you might want to.
William Newmann: Consider the policy important seven it's something that's that's the the first lady's job.
William Newmann: Essentially, to promote these ideas that the administration decide should be promoted, but that the President is not going to have in his portfolio she's going to get her portfolio and that's that's policy and that's.
William Newmann: funded by by taxpayers so that's that's all stuff that's collected and I don't know if the rules for that are any different, but it seems like if it's taxpayer funded it's going to be the same Okay, and this one actually as an aside.
William Newmann: it's been the first ladies, I was at pat nixon's 100th birthday party.
Nia Rodgers: How did you manage that.
John Aughenbaugh: How did you get the invite for that bill.
William Newmann: I wasn't well, I was invited by one of the archivist so I was doing research at the Nixon library when they were having the pat Nixon centennial and they ran this big birthday party.
William Newmann: For hundredth birthday party and they had a lot of people were there were arguments we were not.
William Newmann: Researchers were not allowed to mix with these people, but at some point later in the day, the crowd kind of thin down and there was a ton of food left.
William Newmann: And the arguments and said hey there's cookies Come on, and like through us all out of the room, and we all went down these things and we sat we ate them in the in the break room where the lockers are and we had cookies and cake and things like that and we went back to research.
Nia Rodgers: Obviously didn't actually get to meet her.
William Newmann: Oh, she is she had been dead for oh four years.
Nia Rodgers: Oh, they were just having a party okay any reason for a party i'm just gonna say.
Nia Rodgers: yeah I can't I can't disagree with that yeah.
William Newmann: Well, that that's one of these strange things that you can put on your resume here, I was.
John Aughenbaugh: going to put you on the spot.
John Aughenbaugh: Of the presidential library staffs.
John Aughenbaugh: Which ones.
John Aughenbaugh: If you had to pick.
John Aughenbaugh: Which one was the.
John Aughenbaugh: The easiest to work with.
Nia Rodgers: aside for nia who's your favorite library.
John Aughenbaugh: I said presidential.
John Aughenbaugh: library staff okay okay present company excluded.
Okay.
William Newmann: Actually, I found up all of them all of them are great i've never had any problems anywhere with any library at all they're all as interested in the materials that i'm researching.
William Newmann: As I am so, for instance, when I put the mandatory declassification requesting, and I say I like to write up 1000 md RS their attitude is good.
William Newmann: You want this stuff declassified.
Nia Rodgers: Yes.
William Newmann: When somebody's got to ask for it because it's been a few years since somebody asked for it so they're like yes, yes, yes, and so they're excited because they work there, and when stuff gets declassified they can go ahead, one wow.
John Aughenbaugh: Well done.
William Newmann: Yes, so lbj library is when i've been to the most and so that's the one I single out and some of the other archivists have actually said that yeah that's the one that's the most organized the best run.
William Newmann: They are very serious about transparency and pushing everything out there and i've had great experiences with them, in fact, I had.
William Newmann: The private papers of Robert comber who was an nsc staffer.
William Newmann: They had been just.
William Newmann: gifted to the library.
William Newmann: And I have been talking to the archivist about things, and like I said, you want to see these papers, I am i'm going through them and preparing them right now and what i'll do is when I finished the boxes i'll bring them out to you.
Nia Rodgers: wow.
William Newmann: So, and she said and you're the first person to ever see these.
William Newmann: Now first researcher, and so you know i'd be sitting there and i've got all these other boxes and she'll walk out this box and say no comber number two.
William Newmann: And i'll take the box i'm working with and put it back on the cart and then i'll get this brand new box and like literally the Dubai stand there an opening to go whoo.
John Aughenbaugh: that's like Christmas, for you know for nerd right.
John Aughenbaugh: I was gonna say.
This.
Nia Rodgers: This is a nerd holiday.
Nia Rodgers: it's such a such a while, but you know, speaking as a person, on the other side I don't think that people have any idea how interesting their research is to me.
Nia Rodgers: Like they when they start talking about it and there they light up and they're saying and I found this and i'm looking at this, and this is really interesting I go.
Nia Rodgers: That is really interesting Now I want to know right like it's a it's a wonderful feeling when somebody it's one of the reasons I love consultations with students.
Nia Rodgers: They always always look at something in a different way than I do, because we've had different life experiences so they bring something the table and I go, why do you think of that incident and I have to.
Nia Rodgers: dig into a shared experience.
Nia Rodgers: Right.
John Aughenbaugh: it's I mean it's a shared learning experience.
John Aughenbaugh: Right in when you can go ahead and do that and be part of that you're just like okay Now this is cool right no.
John Aughenbaugh: I mean you know you know I hate to use the the time Warren expression but learning can be fun right and it can be fun when you're going on that journey with somebody who's just like whoo okay I got a brand new box October stuff.
Nia Rodgers: Right his excitement fed her excitement she went back and worked on another, but like it's a whole thing that makes you feel like we're in this together and it's really cool and somebody else appreciates this thing that I appreciate, which is also Nice.
Nia Rodgers: I just love it when we get a good researcher somebody who's just digging in it's great so my last question for you and I know that it is sort of.
Nia Rodgers: fraught politically so i'm not asking you to state political whatever i'm just asking you do you think there will be a trump library, because a lot of trumps communications were not in.
Nia Rodgers: What we would call physical form right they were they were ephemeral in the sense of they were Twitter, or they were Facebook, so do you think that they'll be a presidential library, and if you do, where do you think that it will be.
William Newmann: Well, certainly there's gonna be a museum right.
Nia Rodgers: Right well yeah just kind of a given like.
William Newmann: Donald trump not wanting to build a monument to himself.
Nia Rodgers: And the gift shop.
William Newmann: In the gift shop yeah.
Nia Rodgers: seriously.
Nia Rodgers: Like.
Nia Rodgers: Seriously, but I mean that from the sense of he's an entrepreneur.
Nia Rodgers: Like a gift shop makes more sense for him than any other President really.
William Newmann: it'll be the only one that sells steaks and tires, though.
well.
William Newmann: Well, all his presidential materials would have to be somewhere.
William Newmann: So, if he declines.
William Newmann: Or if his foundation says we're not going to build a library than the one that with the national archives, you know so that's where it'll be so you'll be able to go there and I don't know if the archives is planning on having.
William Newmann: Because obama's doing that, too, I don't know if they're planning on having you know, a specific wing or specific section of the national archives, that will be now.
William Newmann: For Presidents or what would I what I fear is that what they're going to do is they're going to say all this stuff is going to be electronic and what you're going to do is they'll be a kiosk.
William Newmann: You know or you'll sit down and dial in you know plug into the archive and then you'll be able to search material, which I think is a much worse way of doing research, because you can only find the things that you're looking for.
William Newmann: And you don't find the things that you don't know you want, and you won't sort of stumble on so I, like you put the boxes there and i'm looking at China policy and i'm doing day by day for five years, everything that runs through China policy.
William Newmann: know and That to me is how you really learn what's going on, and if you have to know if your entire access to the material is based on a keyword.
Nia Rodgers: And you can't get the wrong key word right.
Nia Rodgers: yeah you're not gonna find it.
William Newmann: I mean, for instance, like just a.
William Newmann: An example when I was looking through.
William Newmann: Through Johnson stuff in particular they referred to the Republic of China, like Taiwan whenever they were dealing with that government they refer to it as GR C.
William Newmann: And you would never know that government of the Republic of China.
William Newmann: You would never know that.
William Newmann: Unless you knew it before so you never find that as a keyword and all the Doc.
Nia Rodgers: Oh yeah no I.
William Newmann: or chunk Kai shek who is generally some of Chiang Kai shek they nobody wanted to type out generally sumo.
William Newmann: or even know how to spell it right, so in all the documents he's just GMO he's the chemo.
William Newmann: That said, they didn't know that right you never find all these documents, a Why is no one talking about chunk I check.
William Newmann: And you might stumble on who's this GMO guy but if you're going through the documents after about three documents you go oh that's what chemo means and then you'd go.
Nia Rodgers: Do that instead of putting his name in there.
Nia Rodgers: So you went if you searched his name that document wouldn't come up because chemo is when their GMO GMO game a game Oh, I see, and so the difficulty with so a lesson for listeners might be that, while the electronic research is fabulous it is, by its nature, not complete.
Nia Rodgers: That, then, if you really want to research, this kind of thing.
Nia Rodgers: That you need to be with the physical documents.
John Aughenbaugh: Because.
Nia Rodgers: A lot of people think Oh well, we'll just make that all online and then everybody will be able to find it, except that.
Nia Rodgers: You won't because you don't know right with exactly what you said you don't know what you're looking for, so you there are things you will never discover unless you happen to read across them in something else.
William Newmann: would be great if they could put it online in a format, in which you say all right, I am now looking at here's box seven.
Nia Rodgers: Right.
William Newmann: And then i'm now going to click on the folder and then I get what looks like an actual folder and then I go page by page and then I still get the chronology of it, I still get you know the the the day by day of what's happening in the office and all the things that I stumbled on.
William Newmann: That I don't know I want the avenues to find things that you have to.
William Newmann: Find sort of through like real life investigation in which.
William Newmann: is given example I was trying to find out who is in a meeting of the gilpatric Committee, which was a committee that was set up to consider nuclear
proliferation, the possibility of a Chinese nuclear test in fall of 1964 and I wanted to know who was in the room.
William Newmann: When they met and all the documents about the meetings and all the Minutes it didn't give me information about who is in the room.
William Newmann: I found out who is in the room, by going to a different file on the NSA staffer on China and looking at his file and seeing what request he sent to the front gate of the White House for who was allowed to enter the grounds that morning.
John Aughenbaugh: yep yeah.
William Newmann: And they found all the participants.
John Aughenbaugh: In that's detective work right.
John Aughenbaugh: yeah no that's not just you know typing in a keyword in doing a search on an online database right right, you know that that's truly detective work.
Nia Rodgers: Well it's it's breadcrumbs researches breadcrumbs.
John Aughenbaugh: yeah I mean cuz you know you're like Okay, who else would have to know who's at the meeting well if the meetings at the White House Okay, you know who would have to know the front gate of the White House right.
John Aughenbaugh: Right what it just anybody into.
John Aughenbaugh: into the White House right.
Nia Rodgers: Right or the lunch order.
Nia Rodgers: The order lunch order.
Nia Rodgers: Like it seriously if you if you ordered sandwiches for everybody.
Nia Rodgers: And you count the number of sandwiches right, then you have a pretty good idea of the number of people in the room that you're looking for right like that this cross things like that yeah and I suppose there's no way that you could really do that electronically.
Nia Rodgers: that's fascinating well Thank you so much, this has been wonderful I now want to go to all the presidential libraries.
Nia Rodgers: You should I should be I should take a summer and just do that drive around the country actually I could drive to Texas and knock out what three or four of them, to start with yeah.
William Newmann: yeah they call it the presidential Carter it's actually on some of the highways down there.
John Aughenbaugh: I mean, I think about it right you got Bush 41 Bush 43 and lbj.
John Aughenbaugh: If you're driving from Virginia.
John Aughenbaugh: On your way you can go through Georgia okay and knock off Carter swing by Arkansas and knock off Clinton okay in.
Jackson.
William Newmann: You pass if you're driving I guess that's it.
William Newmann: For 3040 Tennessee you go past Jackson and then Clinton.
William Newmann: And Bush and then you make a Left and you go lbj and then you make another left and you circle around to hw Bush.
Nia Rodgers: Well, there you go there there's my next summer trip.
John Aughenbaugh: Okay, yes.
Nia Rodgers: Maybe next summer and so you said right now people want can't get into most of them because they're closed because of the pandemic, but they they are likely to
reopen once we either reach herd immunity or enough vaccinations or the numbers drop low enough.
Nia Rodgers: So people could start here in stanton and go there and just to see what is what one is like, which would be really cool.
William Newmann: In the wilsons is pretty cool actually have a in the basement they have basically a.
William Newmann: A live action, a.
William Newmann: recreation of World War one trenches.
Nia Rodgers: wow.
William Newmann: we're actually you through when you're in the trench and at eye level above you you'll see battle scenes and things.
Nia Rodgers: that's cool and dark.
John Aughenbaugh: yeah wow really.
Nia Rodgers: that's the first that's the first one i'm going to start there okay Thank you so much for joining us we really appreciate it.
William Newmann: Thanks bill thanks.
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