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#dogoodwork is not a label but a way of living.
It is the constant and diligent effort to achieve a new level of excellence in one’s own life.
It is the hidden inner beauty behind the struggle to achieve excellence.
It is not perfect but imperfect.
It is the effort, discipline and focus that often goes unnoticed.
The goal of this podcast is to highlight that drive.
The guests I have on this show emulate this drive in their own special way. You’ll be able to apply new ideas into your own life by learning from them.
We will also have 1on1 episodes with me where we’ll dive into my own experiences with entrepreneurship and leadership.
Every episode is designed to provide you with ideas that you can apply and grow in excellence in all areas of your life, business and career.
Do Good Work,
Raul
INTRO
Hey, welcome back to the podcast today.
I'm talking to Erica sinner.
She's the CEO of directory,
a company focused on helping
pharmaceutical companies ensure
their important medicines, make it
to patients who need them the most.
Erica prefers the title, chief
empathy officer, as she aspires
to be a catalyst for empathy
driven change within organizations
And she's also the author
of pets are family.
So support those.
Who've experienced a loss of their
furry animals, as well as how to show
up for someone who has the ultimate
goal of inspiring organizations to
offer pet bereavement leave, which
is part of a bigger conversation
of empathy driven culture.
And she's on a mission to drive empathy in
the workplace more than just cush benefits
and the values listed in the handbook.
You're going to enjoy the
conversation with Erica.
PODCAST
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: All right.
Erica, welcome to the pod.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424:
Thank you for having me.
It's an honor to be here.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: It's fun to do
these and always connect one of the things
that I haven't actually spoken to a chief
empathy officer before this conversation.
So tell me tell me more about
the title, why that I know it's
very intentional, lean into it.
Tell me,
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424: Yeah.
So my official title is
chief executive officer.
I'm the founder and CEO
of my company directory.
But for me, it's really important
to have empathy driven cultures, not
just from a leadership standpoint,
but overall as, all of our colleagues
and team members at the company.
And so I put a little twist on my chief
executive officer to be chief empathy
officer and really paying attention to
how we show up for each other at work.
And are we able to understand each
other's point of view and work as a team?
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: I think
that's one of the most critical pieces,
especially in leadership is, and I
work with small business owners and
entrepreneurs is that you almost become
a coach when you're working with other
humans, because you have to understand
how they view the world, how they.
Language around that interpretation of
the world and then also inspiring them
to take action in order for them to
achieve the common goal in the mission.
And I learned as a obviously, as a young
entrepreneur in the beginning is that, oh,
not everyone thinks the way that I think.
And when I say something, actually,
people hear 3 different things.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424:
That's great.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424:
it's incredible.
So it did take me a while to
get to the empathy piece, but
maybe make it more tangible.
You pharmaceuticals is a
pretty high stakes industry.
It's also, it can feel like it
could be a corporate culture.
Like how, in your experience, how do you
mesh empathy with that kind of culture?
High stakes strat, walk us through that.
How do you actually, Go
through that challenge.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424:
absolutely.
I it is very much corporate.
It is high stakes in terms of
the reason we all get into this
industry is to help other people.
But at the end of the day, each of
these companies are publicly held,
they're shareholders, there's board of
directors that we're all accountable to.
And so I think it can be really easy
for us to go back into how does this
help my numbers being more empathetic,
and I just need to be delivering on
the things that I'm being asked to do,
or we're in an industry of mergers,
acquisitions, divestitures, but for me
it's, remembering the most incredible
plan doesn't matter if it doesn't actually
happen, if execution doesn't happen, and
the only way a plan happens is through
the people that work for your company,
which are human beings, and we spend so
much time at work that I think we, we do
have to Have fun while we're at work while
we're also delivering and achieving big
things and to really bring it to life.
I think we formalized a document within
directory called moments that matter.
And so in my mind, these idea this
idea of the moments that really matter
are when is the team getting together?
When are we checking in
with our direct reports?
When are we communicating the
updates on all of our projects?
And so by formalizing this
document and not just calling it.
Staff meetings or team meetings, but
really saying what are the goals within
each of the meetings that we're having?
And why are they so important?
Starts to bring empathy
back into the workplace.
One of the really tangible
pieces is one on ones.
I find that one on ones are the
first meetings to get canceled.
Bosses are.
My boss needs this, or I need to do that.
And they easily start to just
decline or not schedule the
meetings with their teams.
And to me, that signals that you don't
have time for your team, that you're not
interested in what they're working on,
that there's more important things to be
doing versus being there for your team and
helping remove the roadblocks for them.
And so at our company are one on
ones are, they're not just nice to
have, so they're actually required.
You have to have meetings
with your direct reports.
Every manager is trained this way.
We're all trained in this
document moments that matter.
And so from a tangible standpoint, I think
that to me, I feel like culture is the way
your employees feel on Sunday night, not
the work, happy hours or the other things.
And the only way you can really
keep a pulse on how your teams
are doing is by talking to them
and spending time with them.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424:
That's a really good contrast.
Sunday versus the, cocktail hour that
you can art you can make that artificial.
You can, and people show
up differently too, right?
Like people show up like, Oh, I
have to look happy or I have to.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424: Yeah.
Yeah.
But yeah.
And how you keep track of that is building
trust and showing up for your people
and making time for them and asking
them how they're doing and making it
mean more than just project updates.
Our one on ones, we talk a lot about, ask
your team members, how are they doing?
And then actually pay attention
to what they're saying.
We train our managers to say, tell me
something that you worked on last week
that you're really proud of, but also tell
me something that felt really frustrating
or harder than maybe it should have been.
And How easily we found things like maybe
a second monitor helped change the entire
experience for an employee, which is what?
100 right to really change the entire
experience for somebody who's working
for you and working for the team.
To me, that's empathy.
It's can you put yourself in
somebody else's shoes and understand
what their day to day looks like?
And if you can optimize all of
that for them, then what does it
mean for the overall organization?
It's nothing but positive.
Yes.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: abstract
thinking, so I'm prefacing that as I
say this, in the marketing world right
now, when it comes to attribution
or when you're doing advertising,
whatever, you are never really
gonna find a one-to-One comparison.
This thing brought in this output,
you can connect it and get super
nerdy with the data and the cookies.
It's like incredible, but
like you really can't.
So same thing here, in my opinion
is you're building the ecosystem
around empathy, the questions that
you ask, the language that you use,
they're like, Hey, how are you doing?
But how are you actually doing?
It's okay this, doesn't rebel.
I'm here to push business
and move things forward.
I'm like.
All right.
Let me tell you one of the things
that are interesting is one of the
founders that I helped we grew 20
people, I think they're 40 people
now, so it's a small business, right?
But substantial growth, substantial
revenue, life changing for a lot of
people, and then it really clicked
when they were at the top and the
founders, like my team is everything.
Does it matter that the, like the
revenue, the bids, like if I did not
have this team, we would not be able
to execute what we're doing for the
clients, the positioning we have in the
marketplace, the speaking events that he
goes, it's like the team is everything.
So this is why we're talking
about this quote unquote okay,
how does this relate to me?
But I think the
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424: You know
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424:
you're building that ecosystem
with small micro touch points.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424:
that what you just hit is the
small micro touch points around
how you're meeting with them.
But also, I wrote a book last year
on pets or family, and I'm advocating
as an employer for organizations
to offer pet bereavement leave.
And that's where I start to shift
around this idea of empathy is can you
put yourself in someone else's shoes
and recognize Anytime anything is
communicated to anyone, they're always
going to be thinking about what's in it
for me or what does this mean for me?
And that's okay.
That's a human response to any decisions
or communications that are coming out.
But when I think about what I'm advocating
for in terms of pet bereavement leave,
to me, that's where compassion comes
in and compassionate policies come in.
Empathy is do you understand what they're
going through and what their life is like?
And then through compassion, how are
you actually executing that within your
organization are like the two different
things that you can have empathy and
you can have understanding without
having to bend it all of there's lots of
ways to get there is what I would say.
And I also feel like you can
acknowledge somebody's point of view
without fully agreeing with them,
but acknowledge that this is how
the situation is playing out within
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: Yeah.
Cause they're going through it.
They're going through it.
And I was going to bring that up too.
It's it's, it is an overlooked
issue of Pat bereavement.
I'll give you two contrasting stories.
Like I never grew up with pets.
And my son is, and my daughter is.
And they love that dog.
But I'm like 15 years from now,
like something's going to happen or
10 years from now and I don't know
if they're ready and that's okay.
It sounds like it's silly, but in the
second story, I was on a team meeting
with, fractional CMO for a team and
someone lost their pet and she had a
very difficult, like it was tough and
it was like, Oh, this is interesting.
I never thought that experience could
impact such a way that people, like that
whole week was heavy, like the next two
weeks.
Um, and it's less about, okay.
You lost the pen not having empathy
around it, but it's more about
they're going through a loss.
And I think we supporting
them through that.
And I just think it's pretty, interesting
to tell me more about why advocating
more for that in the practices and
why other people should follow.
I'm curious to more about that,
aspect, but it just understanding
of, obviously, it's the 1st step to
knowledge and stuff like that, but
just understanding other people's.
Place and journey in life.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424: For
me, pepper even leave is so important
because my husband and I, we made the
conscious decision not to have human kids.
We have dogs as our kids.
So that's our family structure.
And I think it starts to really open up
the discussion around a lot of people
are deciding what their family structure
looks like, whether it is partners
or husband and wives or kids or no
kids or stay at home dads versus not.
So it's just this idea of.
Family structures look different.
And for me with pets specifically,
we've always had pet bereavement
leave within my organization.
My employees know that
my dogs are my kids.
Yet when I had to take the leave
last year, when my dog Kingston
passed away from cancer, there, I
didn't realize the stigma that was
associated with Pet loss and pet grief.
I worried people would
be like, it's just a dog.
Can't you get it together?
And even as a female CEO, you
wonder am I too emotional?
Am I holding it together?
Am I leading in the way that my
employees feel safe and where we
are as an organization and when
we're going as an organization.
And so having the leave, I
know for me, it was critical.
And so I just feel a responsibility
to advocate for those types
of benefits for others.
But when we take it back to just this
idea of, compassion and understanding
what someone else is going through, even
if you've never been through it yourself,
I think is the bigger conversation
around empathy driven cultures, right?
I think if it wasn't my animal, if it
wasn't, if it was more of I'm having
surgery or you had an ankle break or
whatever it might be, can you at least
understand where somebody's coming
from and how do you support your
employee through a difficult time and
readjust for this moment in time that
they're struggling with something.
Specifically to pepper evenly though.
Studies have shown that companies who
have compassionate policies like pepper
even leave actually have happier employees
and higher retention rates because
you're you are showing up for them in
a moment that is really hard for them.
And they remember that.
And I feel like the more we
can show up for employees, the
more they will show up for us.
And Sherm even this is like
the governing body of H.
R.
They report that retention is
important because to backfill a
position usually cost three to four
times the salary position that you're
backfilling for.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: It's silly.
It's
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424: Yeah.
So what an incredible way, though, to show
up for somebody and not only get a deeper
relationship with your employees, but also
realize the economic benefit of retention.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: Yeah.
Let's talk about some of
the business cases too.
Obviously showing up in one note that you
mentioned, even like alluding to breaking
an ankle, I think why just Oh, an athlete
breaking it, like an identity shift,
like they have to shift a lot of things.
Same thing, like with your dog too,
like all these different pieces that
you've associated to family, et cetera.
It's not to say right or wrong here.
It's more to look at, okay,
what are they going through?
What's the attachment to that?
How does that change their
life, their worldview their
self identity or something, but
being able to understand that.
And in the business context, and we're
shifting to that here, not because it just
has to be hard numbers, but it has to make
sense in the literal and a pun intended.
You mentioned of scaling like five
to 50 in revenue in million revenue
through empathy driven practices.
How do, these practices translate
to actual financial growth?
Cause I think it's,
we're having a hard time.
We can have a hard time to
put that way to translate that
into like dollars and cents.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424: Yeah,
I think the dollars and cents to me
is when you look at when I think about
pepper reed mint, for example, I think
the CDC reports it's 225 billion are
spent every single year from organizations
and unmanaged grief just in general.
But then you also think about Retention
where we just talked about Sherm talks
about anytime you replace a position,
it's 3 to 4 times that salary position.
I think there's a lot of and even when
you bring a new person and you've got
the training and you've got it, you
have to help bring them back up to
speed where I think a lot of CEOs and
leadership teams get stuck in this
place where it cannot, can people
just not show up and do their jobs?
Can they just not come in?
And then the truth is, we're not robots.
We have real lives outside of work.
And the more that we can recognize
that our lives outside of work are
absolutely going to impact our work
performance and our lives at work.
And we start to really not systemize
all of the things, but spend
the time and understanding what
each other are going through, or
how do we support our employees?
The more you can not have that 200
billion cost of unmanaged grief, not
have the turnover and not have to
rehire, but you have a really strong
team that's going to get you from
that 5 to 50 million, that's going
to, they're going to know the history.
They're going to know the mistakes
that we've made in the past.
They're going to know all of the, ways
that we got here by investing in your team
and it doesn't always have to be dollars.
It can sometimes be, Hey, take the
afternoon off or, sometimes there are
absolutely times when deadlines are
driven by for us in the farm industry,
FDA deadlines like that day you're
going to have an incredible, incredibly
long day, incredibly long week.
You're about to get approval.
There's a lot of things
associated with that.
Or when you're having your
national sales meetings.
But how many times do we also as
executives ask our teams to do more
with less to have arbitrary deadlines
that you probably could have given
a couple more days to your teams?
That instead you could say to
somebody, Hey, I know you have your
son or your daughter's dance recital.
Why don't you get out of here today?
And go do that.
And get this back in a couple
of days versus tomorrow at 8.
00 AM.
And it's, Again, just bringing back
that human approach to your team versus
always going back to the revenue and
the dollars and the deliverables because
you still hit all of those things
by being able to have some empathy.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: Yeah.
You're training for
endurance and resilience.
And I think that's if we were
just talking about resilience,
it'd be a completely different
conversation, similar to same output.
Yeah.
Cause you're essentially
doing a lot of resist.
I'm training for a triathlon,
so everything's endurance
right now, but you're dead.
That's definitely like for the long haul.
How do I help this person?
Not just here for the season
for these next 18 months.
It's more about for the long haul.
So there has to be a level
of flexibility there.
And an interesting note too,
I've never heard that for the 215
billion in quote unquote industry
on like grief loss or like just.
Wasted dollars.
That's incredible.
I remember back in 2012, was it that
one of our earliest mentors Hey, the
pet industry is going to be 50 now
it's like 147 billion industry and
grief is a 200 billion opportunity.
Like how can we really
tackle that problem?
And I like that you're doing this
from an entrepreneur standpoint is.
Here's an angle at it.
Here's one way to do it.
That's a lot of inspiration
that we can take from here.
It's like, how do we think about
these bigger problems to the context?
Cause it's actually costing us if
we don't do something about it.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424:
that's right.
Yes.
So first of all, I have to
bet just back up and say, I'm
totally going to steal that.
Like you're training for resilience.
I love that you're training for this
because it is such a different spin on
how to talk about it and think about it.
But that is what you were training
for in terms of I feel like
organizations get stuck in this.
What are we doing this quarter?
What are we doing this year?
But if we really think long term
planning, like, how are we keeping
our talent team, our talent like they
aren't just employees are not just
FTE is like this is your talent, their
workforce that is delivering on all of
the things you're trying to Achieve.
readjusting for these moments in time,
the long term gain that you can get.
I think we just have a hard time
even as a society Like thinking
about long term planning.
We all want the quick wins today.
Right now, we can get these quicker
wins in showing up for people in these
really hard moments where it not only
feels good as a manager to be able to
say, take the day or we already have
it in a black and white policy that
you can take time off work because we
know this is a part of your family.
It feels good as a manager to do that as
a company to do that, but then also the
benefit from it is unmanaged grief cost
those hundreds of billions of dollars
because they're not thinking clearly.
They are in a lot of grief.
They're in a lot of pain.
It is affecting their
cloudy in their judgment.
And so it's beneficial not just For them
to have that time off and how they will
feel about your company when they come
back because they were able to have some
time off and their grief was honored.
But also as an organization, like
for the manager, for the company's
reputation, for the quality of work
that's going out, I really just feel
like a compassionate policy like pet
bereavement leave could, be game changing.
And like you said, like
the pet industry is huge.
Like that number you quoted,
I think that's the number
now outside of even dog food.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: No,
that food is a big component to it.
And this is a huge booming industry.
And we were the mentors, like you should
get into this industry at 50 billion.
Now it's three X that, but.
Gloss grief dollars is incredible just
to see that quote unquote waste in talent
or waste an opportunity that companies
are unfortunately having to Yeah,
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424:
you could have really shown up for
someone like in, in how they feel
about you as a company, but also that
they recognize that you see their
family structure for what it is.
Animals in the pandemics, it's spiked in
terms of loneliness is a really big thing.
Now we're starting to talk about,
and I think animals help in that.
I think it's been proven they, we
as human beings released dopamine
naturally and serotonin just by looking
into their eyes and they do too.
There's this mutual benefit
between animals and human beings.
But there's also like daily routines
and you're taking them to the doctor and
like you're responsible for this life
that of course, then when you lose them,
which today 70 percent of households as
reported by Forbes have animals and many
do consider them as part of their family.
So of course, when you lose
one, it's going to hurt.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: It's a
difficult stage in life to process
that but showing up the way that
you're doing it and encouraging
others To do I think not only
benefits being a cool human big plus
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424: Yeah.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: But also
like the other aspects that it benefits.
Erica, for everyone listening today,
where's the best place for people to
one, thank you for being on and to
learn more about what you're up to.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424:
Oh my gosh.
Thank you.
Pets are family dot info.
Is my website.
I have my book there, but I also have
all of the resources that are in my
book on my website and PDF format.
So you don't have to buy the book.
I just want them available
for everyone to be able to have.
And I would also, if it's okay to say
one thing in closing is that this whole
conversation, I hope it inspires others.
Like I am truly not advocating
for like government mandates or
any type of like federal laws
to have these types of policies.
I'm actually hoping this conversation
and me being out advocating just
inspires people to want to be cool
humans and cool organizations that
just care about the people that
help them deliver on their work.
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: And I think the
entrepreneurs and people who could listen
to this, and also when you're running your
own company or deciding your own fate,
like you have the opportunity to instill
these principles as quote unquote law.
So out there,
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424: is
raul-_1_07-01-2024_110424: go
out there, do some good work.
And Eric, I appreciate you.
We'll go from here.
erika-sinner_1_07-01-2024_130424:
for having me.
This was awesome.
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