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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
The Question No One Asks
00:00
Hey friends, welcome to another episode of the podcast by Restoration Project. My name is Jesse French and Chris Bruno. Hey guys, good to be with you again. It's good to be with you today. Well, this conversation is really centered around one of my favorite questions that I've come to enjoy over the years.
00:18
And it's one that we at Restoration Project have kind of adopted into our ethos over the years. And I think the first place that it made its way into, into who we are organizationally was actually on one of our father-son expeditions. So one of the experiences that we lead during the summer, it's one of the favorite things that we do to be able to take dads and sons and dads and daughters out on intentional experiences where they can bond and share adventure and connect in all sorts of fantastic ways. And so.
00:47
I'm not going to give you the detailed rundown of what this particular experience held. We want to, you know, leave a little bit of secrecy and anticipation for people that might want to come. But the important piece is at the end of this five day father son experience, we have a real intentional time right before we before it wraps up. And we've had five days, right of like full to the brim. It's filled with so much. I think hopefully so much goodness for people.
01:15
But we actually pause and gather all the dads and sons together. And before we jump into the vans to head home, we say, Hey, we want you to think for a second about when you return home and you see your family and see your friends and think through that. What question are they going to ask you when they see you? Right. And inevitably they say, you know, how was the trip? Right. And we're like, yeah, of course, people say, how was it? And then I said, well, what's maybe the next question that they'll ask?
01:44
And usually the participants accurately say that people ask them, what did you do? Right. And that's a, that's a fine question. It feels like there's a, it feels like there's an actual script that does written at some point in time that all of us, how was your trip? What'd you do? Like that's just, you know, when you, when you go for a walk around your neighborhood and your neighbor says, hi, how are you? They're not actually asking how you are. It's just the script. Same thing for these kinds of trips.
02:14
So that's right here in your head. Yes, totally. And what we're getting at is what I would argue is that's where the script ends when it comes to any sort of conversation around an experience, right? How was it? What did you do? Great, onto the next. And so as we're with these participants, we said, I want you to actually consider a different question, not how was the trip, not what did you do, but we want you to think about the question of what did these five days mean?
02:43
And we frame that there's, I forget where we got it, but there's a great little excerpt from, I think some book maybe on Celtic spirituality that, that really, as we do with lots of things, we, you know, kind of pilfered from them. And they said, right, when the Celts would go on these, these packages, that's the question that they would ask when people would return is not, what did you do, but what did it mean? And I think that's such a brilliant question. And it's a hard question to sit with, but it's so needed because now we're, we're past sort of the surface layer of activity.
03:13
And now we're trying to wander around significance, right? And the thing that, why we wanted to talk about this today is it feels like that's such an important question to ask ourselves, to ask others, particularly as we are in a summer season full of a lot of activity. But because what did it mean now asks us to consider significance, shaping, right? Like to actually get at the meat of what experiences are designed to do. Yeah, I love that. And...
03:43
I love every time we borrow from the ancient Pelts. It's so, so good because there's such good wisdom there. You know, I feel like so often we assume that experience is what transforms us. And I think we would hold that experience is a key ingredient to what, you know, all of it, all these things that do transform us, but reflection on the experience,
04:12
helps shape our understanding of ourselves more than the experience itself. That is what you're inviting people to do at the end of these trips, is don't just think about what happened, think about who you became as a result of what happened. Think about who you're becoming as a result of what happened. That's ultimately what you're asking on what did it mean? What impact...
04:33
did these days, did these relationships, did these moments, did these nights, did this trail, did this struggle up the trail, did the, you know, whatever, all the various things that we build into these experiences. What does it mean? And how does it actually land inside your soul, not just in your like photo album? Right, right. That needs to be added to the script, right? Maybe that's the next piece of it is like, I probably just want to mention the sweet, you know, four or five or.
05:02
68 pictures if they're like right. So Chris, I'm wondering, can you maybe play this out with just this question of what did it mean? Like, yeah, unpack that a little bit for, for you and your family. You kind of real world example. Yeah. Well, so this year our youngest child, our youngest daughter graduated from high school. And so we've got three kids and our youngest is now done with high school, going off to college now in the fall.
05:32
And it's a thing. So years ago, when our oldest, our son graduated high school, we decided that we were going to have a regular rhythm of marking their graduation from high school with a big, more kind of epic family trip. Just the five of us, no one else is invited to come. And it's going to be the five, it's just the five of us and we're going to go to a memorable place.
06:01
And so we've done that and it has required a lot of planning. It has required a lot of saving, scrimping and saving and finding ways to get the best deals and get the best, like all the things, you know, with buying plane tickets with mileage points and finding ways to connive our way into cheaper places just so we can make this kind of epic trip happen. And you know, like, thank God it has occurred. And so we've done three epic trips with our kids. The last one was just a few months ago.
06:31
So she graduated from high school, had her grad party on Saturday and on Sunday. We got on the plane and left the country and we went- That's where you guys are crazy. Like I saw you at your daughter's graduation party and knew like the next day you guys are jumping on a plane, you're a loconess. So you should plan better on that next time. I'm just- Or we planned it well. Like- Yeah, good. You know, like the things from the graduation party, we're still in the house when we got home.
07:01
So who's to say that we cleaned up right away. That's fair. But the cool thing is that because we lived in ministry in the Middle East for 10 years as a family, there's something about that area that region that just continues to be alive and well in our souls. And so we wanted to go back to one of those places. And so, and then it's also like not Middle East, but kind of, we ended up landing in Morocco. And so we took,
07:26
this family five person trip to Morocco in May, May, June of 2024. And I will tell you, Jesse, like it was an epic, epic trip. It was so fun for us to be able to do that and to go and to see the places. And we saw places that, you know, have like a thousand years of history. Wow. And multiple, I don't know what you call them, empires, dynasties have ruled in that actual location over the course of a thousand years.
07:56
or more. So crazy. Now I know that, you know, just clarifying geography, like Morocco is not in the Middle East. Morocco is in North Africa and it's right across the Strait of Gibraltar from Spain. So when I say dynasties, it's got Jewish history, it's got Arab history, it's got African history, it's got Roman history, it's got Spanish history, it's got all kinds of history that's overlaid in this, in this amazing place. So all that to say,
08:25
We went to Morocco and had a fantastic time. But this question is exactly the script that everyone is asking on when we come back. Yep. I think I asked it of you. Like, let's be honest. I'm pretty sure I was like, how's it going? Yeah, I think you did. I think you did. But you know, you're also the kind of man that will ask the follow up further questions as well, but everyone's asking like, and then usually how was your trip? What did you do?
08:54
is a sufficient answer. It's enough. It's really all people wanna know. And yet there's so much more. There's so much more. Cause when you ask, what did you do? It's only asking for the itinerary. But when you dive into like, what did it mean? Well, this means for us in the Bruno family, this is our youngest who's now graduated high school and is leaving home.
09:24
And so as we enter this fall, we are now technically the proverbial, like empty nesters. And this time when we've got, you know, two older kids that have taken time out of work and all that stuff, taken time off and now we're sending another one off to college. The time that we have together is now so limited. Yeah. You know, I don't know what the full number is, but there's a certain it's like 900 and something weeks.
09:52
that you have as a parent. Yeah, before they turn 18 or whatever, right? The time your child is born and the time, you know, well, we're now at zero. Zero weeks left. And that, take that into the meaning of what this trip was and how we were able to sit together and talk together and eat together and play together and do some of the things we did together has a lot more depth of meaning.
10:20
for us now in this year, then it would have last year or two years ago or three years ago. Yeah. Or 10 years ago, right? The meaning of this trip is so significantly different. Now, we've taken other trips, you know, camping trips. And I remember when the kids were going through, you know, all three kids were in some level of US history class in elementary school, middle school,
10:50
New York and Washington DC and all that. Do they remember those? No. And I hope now as adults, they'll remember going to Morocco, but more than that, I hope they will remember the rooftop conversations that we had sitting around hanging out after dinner and talking about life and what's coming and what it feels like to become adults. I hope that the meaning there is held.
11:19
for them as they reflect on the experience of what we did. Yeah, yeah. So one of the things, the phrase that you used was, you talked about kind of the itinerary of what you did. And that is the perspective of what activities you guys did. And below that is John O'Donoghue has this great phrase, which again, we have borrowed. God bless John. If you have not read him, turn off the podcast and go find him. It's so good. But he has this wonderful phrase that
11:49
identity is different than biography and he's getting at right. The shaping of who we are is far different than the itinerary, the biographical lens and level of our lives. And so I want to pay on the spot a little bit, Chris, realizing that the cement is still wet from that. That was just a couple of months ago, but how do you think some of your identity is being invited to shift or for how you are viewing who you are? How has that experience?
12:18
shifted that or invited a deeper understanding of your own identity? Oh, so many ways. I mean, our identity is, how do I want to put this? I feel like our identity is always evolving while our biography is always adding. So there's just more experiences that we add to the biography of things, but our identity is this ebbing and flowing and moving and evolving and becoming and then rebecoming and
12:47
reimagining who we actually are in the world. And so when, back in the day, when we first moved overseas, this was when our oldest was one year old, and the two younger ones, you know, didn't even exist yet. And so who I was when I first boarded the plane
13:17
a one-year-old to go live in the Middle East and do ministry in the Middle East. That young man is very, very different in my understanding of who I am than when I boarded the plane this time. And it doesn't just mean that I have more experience, though I do and I now know how to like live and be in places like that, but it has far more to do with an internal sense of God.
13:46
his making of who I am, his making of who these people are, these children that I now have who are now adults, right? Like who they are and who they're becoming. And I just feel like biography gives us the scaffolding for our identity to be built on. And any biography, and it could be, like you could live in one small rural town your entire life.
14:15
and not have the like compendium of experiences that someone who lives in New York or London or whatever might have. So it's not a matter of the number of experiences because each day is an experience, but the biography of who you are creates the skeleton for who you've become. And I think we can do some things intentionally to create experiences, which is why we do these backpacking experiences,
14:44
Like come and do some of these backpacking, come and do some of these, go on these kinds of trips because it creates space for identity to be forged in the context of adding more of those experiences. But you could have a very simple life and have a very deep identity. Yeah. As long as you have allowed for your biography to form your identity and not just let it be an itinerary. And the flip of that is also true, right?
15:13
You could have a incredible resume of outlandish elite experiences, right? And have no deeper understanding. One of my favorite quotes, it's such a good quote and there is a swear word in it. So if, uh, who's this one by? This is by, uh, Yvonne Chouinard, who's the, he's not a Celtic monk, but he's the guy who founded Patagonia and the clothing company. So this is, this is a quote, quote, rich podcast. It is. It is.
15:43
Okay. So my guts of it, but, but essentially what he says, someone was interviewing him around, you know, and the man has gone on all of the bucket lists outdoor experiences. And so freaking founder of Patagonia, of course. And so this guy was talking about the types of people that he's met over the years. And she now basically says, people who are unwilling to, to actually reflect upon the experience, what you just said earlier in this conversation, there's no transformation. He says, yeah,
16:12
I don't know how many times I've been on a trip up to Mount Everest and my guys with me are assholes at the start of the trip and they're assholes at the end of the trip. It's just really, it's, it's really funny, right? But it's so true. And I feel like it's underlining what you just said, right? Without a willingness to reflect upon the experience, without a willingness to wander around identity, it doesn't matter if you just climb the world's tallest mountain. Like there's no change. There's no deeper understanding of who you are. Yes.
16:42
Yeah. And okay. So several thoughts. First of all, he's been to Mount Everest more than once. Right. Right. Like tick note that here we are. All right. But I also love that someone who has that kind of capacity, that breadth of experience has allowed for those experiences to be transformative. And when you have experiences that are transformative, then you can also notice and note
17:10
those that don't like he is with these other guys that are climbing Everest or whatever. Other guys, yes, yeah. Other people. So I think the core of this is that meaning is laced in every moment of every day. If we slow down enough and tune into kind of the song that is being sung around us on who we are becoming and allowing for the...
17:38
just the vibration of the voice of God to speak into, this is who you are, this is who I imagine you to be, this is who you are becoming, this is your identity. And like you said, so many people just go on vacation and they sit at the beach and they recreate and they play some good games or volleyball or surf or whatever it is, and then come home and it doesn't do anything to who they're becoming. Yeah.
18:07
And I think that's a huge loss. Now, don't get me wrong. I think that getting out and doing nothing and just vacating and all that can have some goodness, but I think the goodness is mined even further when we allow it to be transformative. That's right, that's right. So here's some homework. If you're into that type of thing, maybe not. But obviously the question that we're asking of not just what did you do, but what did it mean? Yes, give that some space, especially as you think about.
18:35
the summer months and all that that held, whether that was a big trip or maybe it was a simple kind of continued rhythm, big or small, right. But to wonder how was I shaped? Who did I understand? How am I understanding who I am? How have you begun to answer that question? And then if you have the mind that you kind of like to poke and prod in conversation, it's good to people. Like
19:03
When you're at the barbecue and someone was like, hey, I just, you know, went and took this trip, like, just like the script and say, what, what does that mean to you? Yes. Like, and not to be a jerk to people and to like put them on the spot, but actually to hopefully invite some deeper conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and, you know, in the collective, that is something that
19:25
we love having opportunity to do is that it's not just this one way street of download of information. There is conversation that is happening in the back and forth and it's not moderated by us. It's just a bunch of people that are like men who are wanting to be restorative are engaging around a whole variety of things. And those kinds of questions are being asked. And it gives us enough pause to then slow down and wonder who am I becoming on the road to where I'm going?
19:55
That's right. That's right. Yeah. Good talking to you, Jesse. Thanks, Chris. Always, always pleasure. Thanks, man. OK, talk to you later. Bye.