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Hosts Spencer Horn and Christian Napier discuss a better way to build and strengthen teams in any organization.
Spencer Horn
00:12 - 00:35
Well, welcome to a Friday edition of Teamwork, A Better Way. I am Spencer Horn, and I am waiting for my co-host and rock and friend, just confidant to join us. And he's in the green room here. I can't hear you still Christian.
Spencer Horn
00:35 - 00:41
It's so fun when we're live and technology is always a challenge, but I'm so glad you
Christian Napier
00:41 - 00:53
made it. What an adventure. My sincere apologies. My computer decided to load updates and then I tried getting on my state computer and it wouldn't recognize the camera and...
Christian Napier
00:57 - 00:58
One thing after another.
Spencer Horn
00:58 - 01:05
Well, glad you're here. Our guest is here. All is good. So tell me what you've been up to this week.
Spencer Horn
01:05 - 01:08
Anything exciting? Ah,
Christian Napier
01:08 - 01:22
well, I don't think I mentioned this last time, but we have a new granddaughter. Congratulations. Yeah, so super excited about that. That is definitely the highlight.
Christian Napier
01:23 - 01:26
And after that, it's being here with you, Spencer.
Spencer Horn
01:28 - 01:40
Well, I'm excited to be here. Just got in late last night from St. Louis. I was actually at the Lake of the Ozarks yesterday doing some work with the state of Missouri and doing some leadership training.
Spencer Horn
01:40 - 01:53
And I know our guest does a lot of that around the world with some very high profile customers and clients. And I'm excited for us to introduce our guest to our listeners today.
Christian Napier
01:54 - 01:59
I am super excited as well, so let's get right to it. Okay,
Spencer Horn
02:00 - 02:42
so Christian, we've got today Minda Hartz, who is a best-selling author, workplace consultant, award-winning filmmaker, and a sought-after keynote speaker who helps organizations turn trust into their greatest competitive advantage. I love that, and we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about trust, but through her Seven Trust Languages Framework, She equips leaders and teams with actionable strategies to build high trust, high performance workplaces. And she is the author of several books, The Memo, Right Within, and You Are More Than Magic. And she has a new book out called Talk to Me Nice, which is really the seven trust languages for a better workplace.
Spencer Horn
02:41 - 02:59
And this is going to redefine how organizations harness trust as a measurable asset. And she is a great storyteller. I know, Christian, you appreciate storytelling, as do I. And that really extends beyond her written page.
Spencer Horn
02:59 - 03:19
I've been reading her book, and she is a very good storyteller. She has served as the executive producer for The Memo and wrote and direct and produced The Distance Between. And that won a Best Short Film, which is fantastic. Both projects explore themes of resilience and human connection, which is her expertise.
Spencer Horn
03:19 - 03:49
And she's recognized as the LinkedIn number one top voice in Workplace and one of Business Insiders 100 people transforming businesses. And she has been trusted by companies like Nike and Google and Best Buy, JP Morgan Chase, and the UN to help redefine leadership and workplace culture. And she's also an assistant professor at NYU and a founder of the Memo LLC. Oh my gosh, Minda, here she is.
Spencer Horn
03:49 - 03:53
Glad to have you. Thank you for joining us.
Minda Harts
03:53 - 03:57
Happy to be here. Thank you, Spencer. Thank you, Christian.
Spencer Horn
03:57 - 04:14
So I'm going to say a few things first. She is a keynote speaker, and she's out there working in the world. But you know what, Christian, like you, some of the smartest and best people I know are introverts. And you wouldn't know it for somebody like Minda, who's out there doing all these great things in the world.
Spencer Horn
04:14 - 04:17
But you consider yourself an introvert. Is that right? A
Minda Harts
04:18 - 04:20
functioning one, Spencer.
Spencer Horn
04:22 - 04:50
A functioning one, yeah, no, you talk about in your book, your latest book here, The Seven Trust Languages, Talk to Me Nice, you talk about your story, and I want you to talk about it, because I really want you to explain why this framework of trust, which in my work with teams, everything starts there, right? And your book starts there, and I'm so glad it does. But I want to highlight something that we talk a lot about on the show, Minda, that you may not know.
Spencer Horn
04:51 - 05:10
One of the two things that causes people to love the work that they do, and you talk about working in the philanthropy industry, strategically helping clients raise a lot of money, and this was a great job for you and you were excited in the beginning, but then the opportunities to grow held you back. Would that be an accurate just super quick
Minda Harts
05:11 - 05:13
Yes, a thousand percent.
Spencer Horn
05:13 - 05:32
Okay, so one of the number one things that cause people to love the work that they have is to be challenged. to grow and to develop. And now we don't often think about that, right? But there gets to be a point where we're just like, I can do this in my sleep, you know, and there's no fulfillment, there's no personal growth.
Spencer Horn
05:32 - 05:49
And that came out to me in your introduction of your book, is that you got to a point where like, I have so much more to give, I have so much more to become. And that was really, really to me, would that be the spark of where you came to in the seven trust languages?
Minda Harts
05:50 - 05:55
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you nailed it. You don't even need me here, Spencer. No, we do.
Minda Harts
05:57 - 06:10
You nailed it. I mean, that's the reality, right? When we stop kind of trusting ourself and trusting our ability, then that's like one erosion of trust just within ourselves. It has nothing to do with the people we work with, right, when we don't feel that sense of safety.
Spencer Horn
06:11 - 06:25
Yeah, and that's exactly right. So tell us a little bit about that story. So those of us who have not read that, the safety really came from the boss who said they had your back and then doesn't, right? I mean, talk about that.
Minda Harts
06:25 - 06:55
Yeah. Well, I think in the workplace sometimes, and not intentionally, but it's this one-sided loyalty in the relationship, right? And so I had been with this company for over a decade and I was having small bites at the apple, but nothing really that, as you said, would really fill my cup after a while. But I was getting all this lip service around, you know, I'm a rock star and all the little nicknames that they give you to try to like keep you engaged, but that wasn't enough for me.
Minda Harts
06:55 - 07:12
And then once I had the opportunity that I thought was going to be my kind of big break, it ended up not being beneficial to me. And I think that was like the, one of the biggest heartbreaks I experienced in the workplace, because I trusted the people that said they care about my upward mobility.
Spencer Horn
07:13 - 07:18
Well, I mean, 10 years, that's a, that's a great deal of commitment on your part.
Minda Harts
07:19 - 07:34
Yeah, I mean, so I trusted them to some degree, right? You know, there was something that kept me there. But after a while, we have to be honest with ourselves and have a conversation with ourselves to say, is this a dangle of the carrot? Or is there something really here versus a mirage?
Minda Harts
07:34 - 07:37
And I had to be honest with myself after a while, too.
Christian Napier
07:38 - 07:56
I'm curious, Minda, to understand maybe a little bit of the backstory about how you actually came up with these seven trust languages. I'm wondering if you can share that with our viewers and listeners, just to give some context before we dive into those trust languages.
Minda Harts
07:56 - 08:27
Yeah, so actually, Christian, I was having all of these conversations with a lot of different people. And they'd always say, and maybe you, the people watching have said it to themselves or to someone, but I don't trust my manager, I don't trust my colleague, and the big one, I don't trust HR. And what I started to think about was, oh, you know, trust isn't just eroding in my life and with some of my relationships, but that happens globally. You may never know what it's like to be me in the workplace, but we all know the feeling of when trust is present and when it's not.
Minda Harts
08:27 - 08:40
I mean, if you're in Tokyo, you know what it feels like if you're in North Dakota. That's a human feeling. And so I started to ask questions around when people said they didn't trust something. And I'd say, well, what's underneath the trust?
Minda Harts
08:40 - 08:57
What caused the erosion? And if you had a conversation with someone about that in a respectful way that still keeps trust at the center, could that enhance the trust? And so they're like, yeah, I guess it is. I said, so is it less of a trust issue and more of an expectation gap in a communication crisis?
Minda Harts
08:57 - 09:13
And if we spoke to each other in a way with humanity and dignity and respect, then maybe we can enhance trust because most people are not walking around with a crystal ball saying, how can I erode trust and how can I fix it? Because they don't know that anything has actually happened.
Spencer Horn
09:14 - 09:34
So you just highlighted something that you talk about, and that is a communication crisis. So one of the symptoms of communication crisis is a lack of trust. Can you describe some more? So if people are in a workplace and they're feeling these symptoms that they know that this is happening.
Minda Harts
09:35 - 09:48
Yeah, you got to get to the workplace doctor immediately. The symptoms are as follows, right? They are if you feel like you're being micromanaged, right? Oftentimes being micromanaged feels like criticism.
Minda Harts
09:48 - 10:05
It feels like you have no autonomy and you feel like maybe someone doesn't trust you to do your best work. I think that is a symptom. I think also When something hard does happen in the workplace and nobody talks about it The smoke is coming out of the chimney, but everybody's like just sit back down. It's fine.
Minda Harts
10:05 - 10:19
Nothing to see here you know, those are those erosions of trust and those breakdowns and there's Oftentimes not even space to be able to bring it up without fear of retribution, but we feel this way But we have no space to be able to talk about it
Spencer Horn
10:21 - 10:32
Yeah, and one of the things that you even mentioned in your book is not only not having conversations, but conversations that maybe when you want to have a conversation, you're shut down, actually.
Minda Harts
10:33 - 10:33
Yeah.
Spencer Horn
10:33 - 10:59
Where they're like, OK, we don't want to talk about that now, and not allowing you to bring up your concerns. And so that's obviously a real red flag. And I think one of the things that's interesting is, in a way, the placating that you receive, the, we trust you, you're a rock star, almost gaslighting, right? Because we just want you to continue on.
Spencer Horn
10:59 - 11:09
And I mean, what do you think's behind that? I mean, so I have a couple of questions. Was this organization a nonprofit or was it for-profit supporting nonprofits?
Minda Harts
11:11 - 11:13
For-profit supporting nonprofits.
Spencer Horn
11:13 - 11:17
Yeah. So what do you think was behind the stonewalling, if you will?
Minda Harts
11:19 - 11:32
Well, I think some of the other symptoms is high turnover, right? So often I would have kind of a revolving door of leaders, right? So one leader feels a different way. And then you're starting from scratch again, right?
Minda Harts
11:32 - 11:36
And so I think that that was part of it. There was no...
Spencer Horn
11:36 - 11:38
Your bosses mean the turnover above you.
Minda Harts
11:39 - 11:40
above me.
Spencer Horn
11:40 - 11:41
Yeah, it was
Minda Harts
11:41 - 12:09
taking place. And so I think that that was also but then I think that sometimes as middle managers, some of my managers didn't feel empowered to be able to make decisions for their team. So they were just kind of going with the get along, right. So I think there was just a lot of And I even talk about it in the book as you know spencer, but Lying and I know we don't like to say that in a workplace context because we're all perfect and nobody's lying But we tell people these kind
Minda Harts
12:09 - 12:28
of white lies just to get them go back to work keep being productive, right? but actually Had I been told the truth, I would have been more productive because then I would be less anxious, right? There was more transparency. And I think that, again, we can have hard conversations at work where we don't strip people of their humanity and their integrity.
Minda Harts
12:28 - 12:35
It just makes it better for everyone not selling these dreams that's only one-sided.
Christian Napier
12:36 - 13:11
So one of the questions I have, I'm going to use a sports frame here, Minda. In sports, sometimes you hear the phrase, the coach has lost the trust of the players. And this is usually used in context like it is irreparable. Once the coach has lost the trust of the players, again, in a sports framework, the most common solution is replace the coach.
Christian Napier
13:11 - 13:21
It's like that's the only thing that people think about. OK, once the coach has lost the trust of the players, our only remedy is to replace the coach. Because it's hard
Spencer Horn
13:21 - 13:22
to get back. But
Christian Napier
13:22 - 13:25
that can't always happen in the workplace, right? I mean, you can't
Spencer Horn
13:26 - 13:26
always
Christian Napier
13:26 - 14:06
just replace the CEO or replace the CIO or the CFO or whatever because there's a loss of trust. And so I'm curious. looking at it, is there a line of demarcation that's crossed that it's, okay, the relationship is irreparable and we just got to split ties? Or is it true that trust can be irreparably broken or can it be fixed, you know, without having to just go out and replace leadership?
Minda Harts
14:07 - 14:25
I think that's a great analogy, Christian. I don't feel as though we have to fire every CEO or C-suite member when they make a mistake, right? But what I do think has to happen is we have to normalize being more transparent. We need to have more clarity, more honesty with people.
Minda Harts
14:25 - 14:45
And remember that people are human first, employee second, right? And I think that oftentimes leaders have not been incentivized to be you know, more transparent with their direct reports. And I think that harms the relationship. So if trust can be broken, I do believe it can be rebuilt through consistency, right?
Minda Harts
14:46 - 15:11
But half the time is there's no accountability, there's no acknowledgement. And I think once we understand that people just want you to say, hey, I don't know the answer to that. And when I have more information, I'll get back to you. But if you have any questions, feel free to swing in and you know, I have an open door that's going to feel different than just the email that I get at 9am telling me my last day in the office is going to be at 915, right, there's a
Minda Harts
15:11 - 15:29
way in which we can have these conversations and in show a demonstration of trust. And that's why I created the seven trust languages because In this economy, we can't all just quit our job because we have a bad coach, right? But how do we manage up? Or we can't just fire everybody because nobody's meeting our expectations.
Minda Harts
15:29 - 15:39
Let's have a conversation about that and get everybody back in the game room, back on the court and let's play the game because that's what we're all here to do.
Spencer Horn
15:52 - 16:08
I think you did a good job describing some actually trust-building behaviors in just your last little section there. Would you define trust? Because that's something that we throw around a lot. I trust you, I don't trust you.
Spencer Horn
16:10 - 16:17
You defined it in there, and so define it, and then maybe de facto, how do you build it?
Minda Harts
16:18 - 16:35
Yeah, I think that trust is, it has to be a noun and a verb. And I think that's where it's missing. So yes, we can trust, trust is subjective. So I also want to say that yes, we can have trust again at 9am and then do something or say something and it be gone by 917.
Minda Harts
16:37 - 17:03
But what I do think is important is that trust on a fundamental level is the belief in something or someone. And once that belief is no longer there, then that's where the erosion takes place. But again, I think that part of our trust building accountability technique is to let people know when we have fallen short. And we can talk about how to do that, because I can't just come to you, Spencer, and say, you broke my trust.
Minda Harts
17:03 - 17:17
You hate me. We're never going to have a great working relationship. I'm not going to get the best out of you. So part of the book is giving people the language to say, OK, when a breakdown has happened, how can I have this conversation where trust is enhanced still and not eroded?
Minda Harts
17:17 - 17:23
Because we don't need to meet erosion with erosion. Yeah.
Christian Napier
17:24 - 17:59
One of the questions I have for you, Minda, comes back to acknowledgment, and that is leaders actually acknowledging that there's a trust problem. Because maybe they're in their ivory tower, and they just don't really even perceive that there's a trust issue. So I'm curious, in the work that you do with organizations, Have you encountered cases where you... people even refuse to acknowledge that they have a trust issue.
Christian Napier
18:01 - 18:06
Or they're surprised at the depth or the breadth or the scope of the trust issue.
Spencer Horn
18:06 - 18:09
Because they're unaware, right? Right, they're unaware.
Minda Harts
18:09 - 18:25
Yeah, they're unaware. So funny that you asked that question. Recently, I was having a conversation about a company that was going to bring me in to talk about trust. And one of the leaders was like, oh, we don't have a trust problem here, so we don't need to have these conversations.
Minda Harts
18:25 - 18:46
I thought, oh, that's unfortunate. You don't think that's an issue, right? And so part of my kind of articulation of trust is like, no, listen, we all do things throughout the day that sometimes we miss the mark. And this isn't about playing the shame game against anyone.
Minda Harts
18:46 - 19:11
This is saying, how can we all be better leaders? Even if we don't have the title, we're all still leaders. We all get to be a chief trust officer by making it better each and every day So there's trust is always going to be hanging in the balance, right? But it's our behaviors that keep it from staying keep it either on the tracks or off the tracks So when I hear leaders say we don't have a trust issue, that's not even a red flag to me That's a siren like bring the bring the whole fire team
Minda Harts
19:11 - 19:31
right because there's something that you're not having the right conversations with the right people if you think that nobody feels like they, they may not say they don't trust you, but I'm sure not everybody feels like they're getting the respect and the dignity that they deserve and how information is being disseminated across the company.
Spencer Horn
19:32 - 19:49
I had a very similar experience, Minda. I had a global telecom company based internationally reach out about needing some some help for their annual meeting. And when I was asking about, oh, yeah, we're really good. Everybody's high performing.
Spencer Horn
19:49 - 20:01
There's no problems on the team. And then with subsequent phone calls with people, then it eventually spills out. Yeah, we're disappointed. We're not achieving the level that we want.
Spencer Horn
20:01 - 20:20
And we've had a lot of turnover. And I think sometimes they have to believe their own propaganda. They have to tell a story that they're telling people so that people will, A, stay, kind of like they were doing to you, like you're a rock star. And everything's good here.
Spencer Horn
20:20 - 20:48
Just believe it and hopefully that eventually will change instead of really doing the work. So let's get into the work, shall we? Yes, let's do it. So your new book, Talk to Me Nice, It sounds like it builds on the foundation of some of your previous work I see the the sign behind you of the the memo for example your short film and and right within How is that true?
Spencer Horn
20:48 - 20:51
I mean, how does it build on what you've been doing so far?
Minda Harts
20:52 - 21:33
Yeah, no, there is a through line for sure So the work that I was doing previously was more centered around women and women of color in the workplace And how do we? essentially enhance trust in those relationships where they don't feel like they're being seen in the workplace. And then once I kind of started to travel more globally, I was reminded that not just women experience erosions of trust, right? Each and every person that's ever worked any time in their life period has experienced Not feeling something that they need in the workplace that is making it a low trust environment and so that made me want to kind of have a crossover album with talk to me nice
Minda Harts
21:33 - 21:56
and say let's talk about communication because each and every one of us is not. hitting that lever in which we really need. And instead of, we can't do our best work if people don't know what we need and what our boundaries are. And I feel like if you knew one or two of those things that would help me do my best work, then you would probably want to know that, especially if you're a good manager or colleague.
Minda Harts
21:56 - 22:07
And so that's where the trust languages entered the chat of saying, hey, this is a solvable and fixable problem if we actually talk to each other and build quality relationships.
Spencer Horn
22:17 - 22:38
Christian, I just want to follow up on that briefly to support what you were saying. It's not just a narrow focus problem. I speak all over the world, as I assume you do, Amanda. And one of the things that I noticed, like for example, in Europe, certain groups of people get preferential treatment.
Spencer Horn
22:39 - 22:59
If you're from the UK or Germany, and if you're from Chechya or Serbia or Bulgaria or from Poland, You got to work a lot harder to get noticed by HR or management and fewer opportunities. And they really, really have to learn how to self-advocate. And it's real. I mean, I've coached people.
Spencer Horn
23:00 - 23:28
I'm talking at major organizations that have multi-team members from all kinds of different countries. And there's a challenge that exists in the workplace of trust kind of equal treatment. I mean, I don't know that I think we need to really be willing to give people opportunities wherever they are, you know, based on more of their talent rather than where they're from.
Minda Harts
23:29 - 23:36
Well, I mean, I agree. I always tell people, I'm like, we might work at the same place, but we experience that workplace differently.
Spencer Horn
23:37 - 23:39
Right? That really frustrates me.
Minda Harts
23:39 - 23:48
So yeah, you may trust Jim all day, because you have more opportunities with him. You live next door, right? There's a different situation. But now I'm remote, right?
Minda Harts
23:48 - 24:08
And I never get an opportunity to chat with Jim, you know, so I don't know that he knows what I'm doing or that my manager's articulating that. So I think we have to remember that not everybody has the same experience, but part of trust building is making sure that we trust we can make that equitable, right? That's something that we can work toward each and every day.
Christian Napier
24:11 - 24:17
So one question I've got with the seven trust languages, it kind of riffs off the five love languages,
Minda Harts
24:17 - 24:18
right?
Christian Napier
24:19 - 24:40
So my wife and I, we've been married for 35 years. We understand love languages and also our weaknesses like I am not a very good giver of gifts right it's just not it's never been part of me and she acknowledges my weakness so she knows that okay I
Spencer Horn
24:41 - 24:41
Bring me
Christian Napier
24:42 - 25:16
flowers tonight. I can do Other things I can do better than then give gifts and she acknowledges I don't in other words. I don't have to be perfect in her eyes And I acknowledge her weaknesses and celebrate her strengths as well one of the challenges that I that I Think about when I think about whether it's five love languages or seven or trust languages is, do I have to become multilingual and fluent in all of these languages?
Christian Napier
25:17 - 25:40
Because it could seem overwhelming. Like, okay, maybe I'm naturally good at some of them, but I'm really weak at others. And maybe I do need to work on my weaknesses to a certain extent. But when you're working with executives and you're trying to set expectations, What do you do if they start to feel like, hey man, this is too much.
Christian Napier
25:41 - 25:52
You got all these love languages or trust languages and I don't know if I can do all of them. So what's the advice that you give to executives who might feel a little bit overwhelmed by it all?
Minda Harts
25:54 - 26:12
Yeah, no, I'm glad you pointed that out because we're all very busy throughout our day and maybe you don't You're not going to be bilingual in all seven. But what I suggest and what I tell them is, listen, you don't have to guess what somebody's trust language is. You start with this simple question. What does trust look like to you?
Minda Harts
26:13 - 26:41
I want to make sure that we have the best working relationship. And I want to hear from you those things. And based off of what your counterpart says to you, they may not even know what their trust language languages are, but they're going to say something along the lines, Oh, you know, I love it when I'm acknowledged after, you know, a big team project, or I love when you provide meaningful and consistent, you know, insight to me, or I love when we have more of a feedback loop.
Minda Harts
26:41 - 27:01
Those things are going to signal to you as a leader, Oh, I get the best out of Minda when I give her that meaningful and consistent feedback or insight. And then I allow for her to process that. And we have a conversation that's rooted in trust and not criticism, right, or micromanagement. And I think that those are the things that we can do.
Minda Harts
27:01 - 27:40
If I know that you need one or two things, and that's going to lead to more productivity, which is good for performance in the bottom line, then I'm going to do those one or two things if I know you need it, right? Otherwise, if acknowledgement is my primary language as a leader, and I'm good at patting you on the back and giving you gold star, gold stars, but maybe what I really what that person really needs from you is more transparency and because you're not being more transparent With certain decisions then that trust is never going to get eroded or get rebuilt So I think it's important for us to ask people just like your wife, right? You at some point had you asked her, you know, what is it that you really need from me?
Minda Harts
27:40 - 27:56
She might have told you, you know, I really like when you give me x gifts and before, there was this expectation gap, right? Like you didn't know that's what she needed. And I think the same is true in the workplaces. We are missing the mark because we haven't asked people what good looks like to them.
Spencer Horn
27:58 - 27:59
And it's such an easy step, isn't it?
Minda Harts
28:00 - 28:00
Yeah.
Spencer Horn
28:00 - 28:21
What does good look like for you? Even in, you know, it's interesting, there's a process that when somebody in the office breaks trust, and I've seen this happen. You can even quantify that on a scale from one to five, how's our relationship? And what would it take for me to move it from a three to a four?
Minda Harts
28:22 - 28:22
Yeah.
Spencer Horn
28:23 - 28:47
I mean, something so simple as that is where are we in our relationship here? And what can I do to close the gap from your perspective? And that's a way that I think, in my experience, Christian, that a leader can build individually with people. Well, we've teased our listeners long enough about these seven trust languages.
Spencer Horn
28:47 - 28:49
Can we start learning some languages?
Minda Harts
28:50 - 28:58
Let's start learning. So at least we can start speaking somebody's language, but really, really quick. Should I just give them and then we can,
Spencer Horn
28:58 - 29:01
okay. Yeah. I mean, I think let's just start.
Minda Harts
29:01 - 29:15
Yeah. Okay. So in no particular order, but transparency, just clarity and honesty, security, that psychological, intellectual, and emotional safety. Demonstration, that's the show and the tell.
Minda Harts
29:16 - 29:32
Doing what you say, essentially. Feedback, I've teased that out. Meaningful and consistent insight, but also having a loop, allowing somebody to provide you with a response in a meaningful and consistent way. Acknowledgement is being seen and valued for your work.
Minda Harts
29:33 - 29:51
Sensitivity is being mindful of our behaviors and our words. Essentially, empathy, right? follow through, keeping your word. I know so many people get like thrown off by not keeping your word.
Minda Harts
29:51 - 29:53
And so those are the seven trust languages.
Spencer Horn
29:56 - 29:57
Christian, what do
Christian Napier
29:57 - 30:16
you got? Well, I love these, I love these seven, but I actually want to come back to something that you said, Spencer, and Minda, I'm curious to get your take on it. You know, Spencer's like, okay, to rebuild, I have a conversation with a person asking them, what can I do to get from a three to a four? Assuming that the person trusts you enough to tell you.
Christian Napier
30:16 - 30:17
Actually,
Spencer Horn
30:18 - 30:27
there's no question about that. They can actually be frustrated and want you to be fired. And so they could sabotage that process. But
Christian Napier
30:28 - 30:29
let's assume that there's good intentions there.
Spencer Horn
30:29 - 30:30
Good intentions.
Christian Napier
30:30 - 31:04
And the person says, OK, this is what you need to do to get from a three to a four. Maybe that is the transparency thing. What that particular example allows is almost a two for one, because if the person says, I need more transparency, if you follow through, which is the seventh thing that you just mentioned, right? Now I've demonstrated two, I've demonstrated two different trust languages, right?
Christian Napier
31:04 - 31:10
I'm showing more transparency, and at the same time, I'm also demonstrating to the person that I'm following through.
Spencer Horn
31:10 - 31:19
Which is absolutely key, Christian, because you can't just have that initial meeting and not check your progress. And that's where accountability falls short, right?
Christian Napier
31:19 - 31:44
And so, Minda, I'm curious to get your take, like, how do these languages kind of compound or build on each other, right? So instead of looking at them in a vacuum, it's like, how how do you almost get like a package deal, you know, by, you know, where I demonstrate one and then by demonstrating one, I'm actually demonstrating another one and perhaps another one as well.
Minda Harts
31:45 - 32:09
Well, see, that was part of my sneaky little plan, Christian, that people would say, oh, I can't remember all these seven. I don't have time for all that. But what you're really doing when you get in the habit of speaking people's trust languages, a.k.a. having respect for people when we engage in the workplace in a more meaningful way is we're gonna speak like three or four of these languages and we didn't even know it, right?
Minda Harts
32:09 - 32:23
So now you're speaking, right? Transparency, you're speaking the language of demonstration, you're speaking, you're acknowledging, right? And you're following through. So now we've just spoken four out of the seven languages, right?
Minda Harts
32:23 - 32:47
And even if we speak one or two every day, think about what that does to the relationship. Think about what that does to the culture and it, On a micro level, you're enhancing the relationships. But think about on the macro part, where that starts to trickle down into other pieces and other departments. And we're role modeling what good could look like when trust is at the center of everything we do.
Spencer Horn
32:50 - 33:00
I think that answers your question that some people might feel overwhelmed, right? Because it's like, hey, you know, you just get started. And some of them will actually start building on each other. I love that.
Spencer Horn
33:00 - 33:25
So, I don't know if this is a good question or not, because it seems like, I mean, some people may naturally, well, like the love languages, right? Somebody might value transparency more than security, right? Some people may be independent. I just want you to be honest with me.
Spencer Horn
33:25 - 33:49
And yet, so how do we, and I think you've already answered it, but how do we learn their language? And I think you just said, ask them, but is there, I mean, is there a way to tell? I'll give you an example. I'm gonna guess, Minda, I'm gonna guess that maybe you're not somebody that loves to be paraded in front of the whole company and say, look at this.
Spencer Horn
33:50 - 34:14
Instead, you probably appreciate sincere one-on-one, appreciation backed up with, I'm going to give you these opportunities and a pay raise. More than a big award, right? I mean, I know that about you, but part of that's part of your personality,
Minda Harts
34:14 - 34:22
right? Yeah. Yeah, I think that's true, right? I think part of this is right now we could ask everybody and do a poll.
Minda Harts
34:23 - 34:59
You can think of who's that one person in the office or in your personal life who is constantly eroding trust, right? And not intentionally, right? Like, for example, my dad, he is the kind of person that we're out in the store and because he's so proud of me, you know, my daughter, she's a best selling author. And for me, it makes me want to like crawl under the the floor right because i i appreciate exactly what i want right but so i'll tell him you know i appreciate you you know being so proud of me but here's what I prefer.
Minda Harts
34:59 - 35:08
We don't have to let people know that. Let's just find the doughnuts down the aisle, right? And you tell me how you feel. But we, but it's how I respond to him, right?
Minda Harts
35:08 - 35:31
Because he, that's his natural language. He likes that, right, for that type of acknowledgement. So that signals to me, that's something that he might want more of. From me right because that's also trusted a two-way street But how we respond to people even if it isn't their primary language is also going to enhance the relationship or erode But if I like crash out at the grocery store dad, I can't believe it You've done that
Minda Harts
35:31 - 35:45
to like five people, you know with five people already that's not enhancing our relationship. It's also creating conflict, right? But if I say hey dad, I appreciate you doing that but the next door we go to let's just you know It's
Spencer Horn
35:45 - 35:47
just you and me, right?
Minda Harts
35:48 - 36:13
But, but I'm saying it, you know, our families used to say, it's not what you say, but how you say it. And I think that's part of how these trust languages work, too, right? When someone does give us information, how do we respond to that? We want them to Respond with trust, but how do we do the same and I think that's also telling him because for many years I just let him kind of say the thing right, but it was making me uncomfortable So I think part of that is also being
Minda Harts
36:13 - 36:29
honest with people Practice the language of transparency on what works and what doesn't because the more information that people have about you the better and more Productive you're gonna have in the workplace or any personal relationship as well
Spencer Horn
36:29 - 36:45
Yeah, I forgot to tell her, Christian, that sometimes we have people make comments on social media. And we have Kevin, Kevin Martin, who often listens. And we're glad you're out there, Kevin. Thanks for joining us live.
Spencer Horn
36:45 - 36:59
And Kevin says, trust is a mix of competency and character. Competency is your skills and talents. Character is your core values and emotional intelligence. displayed more in what people observe than in what you say.
Spencer Horn
36:59 - 37:12
Language is easily manipulated and faked. Authentic communication is what you do more than what you say." So he's actually expressing, in my opinion, his love language. I mean, his trust language,
Minda Harts
37:12 - 37:20
right? Yeah, yeah, he is. It sounds like, I could be wrong, but based off of what he said. Demonstrate.
Minda Harts
37:20 - 37:35
And demonstrate, right? There's two languages at play here. And I think that's part of, you know, we talked about what erodes trust. And that's not, so demonstration is one of those ways I feel like you can you could start to rebuild, right?
Minda Harts
37:35 - 37:48
It's not a one-time event. Trust has to be a lifestyle. So how do I consistently show you that, yes, I am going to show up for you. I'm not going to just give you that gold star on Monday and then next year we'll do it again, right?
Minda Harts
37:48 - 37:57
Like I'm being consistent with what I say and they align with my values. I think that's where trust is really important. I think that's what he was saying as well.
Christian Napier
38:15 - 38:20
I'm curious to get your take on the sensitivity thing, and I'll share a story,
Minda Harts
38:20 - 38:22
rather
Christian Napier
38:22 - 38:35
embarrassing. And this happened a long time ago, so this was back in the 90s, and I was pretty new in the workforce, and I was also a lot skinnier then. And I went to a conference, and
Spencer Horn
38:35 - 38:36
there were- We've had a lot of
Christian Napier
38:36 - 39:00
mole since then. Yeah, we have. And there were a lot of people sitting at a table for dinner, It was quite jovial everybody's cracking jokes. So You know, I wanted to be a funny person too and one person mentioned that I I he thought that I looked like a particular celebrity and Me trying to be funny about it.
Christian Napier
39:00 - 39:10
I said well at least I don't look like Ernest Borgnine. That's what you Trying to be funny That only resonates with people that are me, my age or older,
Spencer Horn
39:10 - 39:12
right? Like who knows who Ernest
Christian Napier
39:12 - 39:23
Borgnine is these days. But he's not the most attractive, was not the most attractive celebrity. The person sitting next to me at the table said, you know, I get that all the time. People say I look like Ernest Borgnine.
Christian Napier
39:23 - 39:30
And I looked at him, I'm like, he does. And I was mortified. Like I just made a joke at this person's expense. I didn't even realize that I had done it.
Christian Napier
39:31 - 40:09
And so I think sometimes, the lack of trust is intentional. We do things, but sometimes we do things and we didn't mean anything. It was just completely unintentional and- Caught up in the moment. Yeah, and I'm curious in the work that you've done with companies, how much of the trust issue is something that people are doing intentionally versus things that they just don't even, they have no idea that what they're doing is causing a trust problem.
Minda Harts
40:10 - 40:44
Yeah, well, thank you for telling that story and being vulnerable with us because we've all been there, right? We've all said the thing that we wish we could kind of like eat But I talk a lot about this in the book that oftentimes when trust is eroded It's not that I woke up this morning and said, how can I erode trust with Christian today? Or how can I run trust with Spencer? No, it's just that I I I'm in the office and I say the joke that I think is funny and now I realize that I Shouldn't have said that and I think part of the sensitivity is just being more empathetic, right?
Minda Harts
40:44 - 41:10
We have to ask ourselves. Have I earned the right to say this and if I say this How is that going to land with the other people in the room, right? I used to have a manager and he would say a lot of jokes about communities that he wasn't a part of right and I Oftentimes it was funny to him, but it wasn't funny to everybody else And so do I think that he was trying to be rude? Do I think he was trying to be a menace?
Minda Harts
41:10 - 41:47
Um, maybe a little bit of a menace, but I think he was more so just trying to trying to be the funny guy Right and so but nobody ever told him that so we would all kind of talk Outside of him and be like, oh my god this guy right and so but he it was eroding trust But I don't think he intentionally was trying to do that I think that was like his weird way of trying to be like cool and trying to like connect with people but it was landing in the wrong way and it was ruining relationships because some of the jokes were you know, things you should not joke about at work with people that you work with, right? And so I think that part of this is being self-aware, right?
Minda Harts
41:47 - 41:52
To say, have I earned the right to say this joke? Am I practicing empathy?
Spencer Horn
41:52 - 41:52
And
Minda Harts
41:52 - 42:15
if I do make the mistake because we're all going to make a mistake or say the thing we shouldn't say because language is evolving and changing and so is culture, right? But being able to say, hey, you know what, I apologize for that. Obviously, that wasn't my intention, but I apologize, right? So part of rebuilding trust, let's say with me is now he's not going to say those type of jokes anymore, right?
Minda Harts
42:15 - 42:34
He's going to be more conscious, but If you would show back in that place and then make that same joke the next day, hey, at least I don't look like then you don't want to repair the relationship. Right. But we have to give people that space and grace also to be able to to demonstrate that they can be a better human later down the line.
Spencer Horn
42:35 - 42:55
And I think that even goes for parents. Maybe your dad didn't apologize, but I think as parents, I've had to apologize to my kids sometimes because I'm wrong as a parent and I break trust with my kids. And my wife is so good at helping point out when I am wrong with them. Do you want to be right or do you want to have a relationship, she would always say.
Spencer Horn
42:55 - 43:24
And so it's really important to have those relationships of trust, which creates that engagement and high performance that you've been talking about. Let's talk about, you know, there's so much of remote work and hybrid work that's going on. How do, you know, the dynamics of workplace have changed in the last, you know, five, six years. Do these languages manifest themselves differently?
Spencer Horn
43:24 - 43:28
And if so, how? When we're in these hybrid or virtual environments?
Minda Harts
43:29 - 44:10
Yeah, well, I want to highlight sensitivity here, because I think it's really important in terms of hybrid and remote work is, you know, depending on what generation you grew up in, you might think that, you know, remote work, you can't do work from home, or you can't do certain things. And so Are we being sensitive that we have to evolve with the time? So for example, if I'm used to seeing everybody with their camera on in our in our meetings since the pandemic in the moment that Minda doesn't have her camera on, then I automatically assume that she must be in Tahiti working, right?
Minda Harts
44:10 - 44:25
She's not working. Right or the green light on the teens is not on so that must mean that she's out at Trader Joe's, right? And so part of that as a manager, I'm not gonna approach Linda and say or approach me and say I What's wrong? Where were you?
Minda Harts
44:26 - 45:06
Your light wasn't on Are you at home, you know, or I'm gonna say him and then normally you have your camera on for all of our meetings and I wanted to check in is everything okay because the last two meetings your camera was was off and I just wanted to check in that's going to Demonstrate that I want to have a productive conversation and I want to find out what's going on versus putting me on the defense and then that allows for me to say you know what I've been caretaking for my elderly and You know parent and sometimes things get a little haywire So I have to turn the camera on and just wanted to let you know now I'm practicing transparency and letting them know and now we're back on the tracks, right? But think about it if if that person approaches it from that you're not working anymore.
Minda Harts
45:06 - 45:19
What's going on? Do we need I need to write you up? we're not going to have the type of trusting relationship where we can say those things. And now that signals to me that, oh, I can be a little more empathetic because I can take things into consideration.
Minda Harts
45:19 - 45:28
Everything isn't doom or gloom, right? So I think that's something that we all should take into consideration when we're working in those type of environments.
Spencer Horn
45:39 - 45:44
It's also just assuming good intent first, right? Always start there.
Minda Harts
45:46 - 46:14
Please start there because I think that I have no data to support what I'm about to say, but I feel like since the pandemic, we no longer take things into consideration, right? We make up our own narratives, we fill in the blanks, right? Our way was the only way and I think that that strange relationships when we don't consider, again, two things can be true at the same time, but we have to give people the space to be able to find out more information instead of creating that narrative on our own.
Spencer Horn
46:14 - 46:42
Minda, there's a psychological term for that. It's called the fundamental attribution error. And the fundamental attribution error is you attribute your own intentions as good and you judge others' intentions by their impact of their actions. So in other words, you judge your intentions, not the impact of your actions, but you judge everybody else by their impact on you.
Spencer Horn
46:42 - 47:07
So if somebody is late, you judge them as they don't care, they're lazy, instead of thinking, well, maybe their car broke down or something happened first. And so we're judging other people's intentions by their impact on us. You know, I'm mad that Minda's camera's not on because we're supposed to have it on, therefore she must not, you know. She must not care, or she's at Trader Joe's.
Spencer Horn
47:07 - 47:21
That's the fundamental attribution error. Or, you know, you see somebody, and you punish your children, and the reason is, is because they're misbehaving, but you see somebody else in the grocery store, you know, punishing their child, and they have anger issues. Fundamental attribution error.
Minda Harts
47:23 - 47:28
That makes a lot of sense,
Christian Napier
47:28 - 47:52
for sure. Yeah, you know, One of the questions that I have is, are there ever situations where any of these trust languages potentially come into conflict? Or are they all complementary? So for example, transparency requires clarity and honesty.
Christian Napier
47:52 - 48:30
And then sensitivity, OK, we're being mindful of people sometimes people perceive those as conflicting. Maybe they're not, right? But sometimes people perceive like, well, I can't really be frank because if I was really frank with this person, then I would hurt their feelings and they would be upset. And, you know, so what do you do in those situations or how do you, how do you advise people on, rectifying what they perceive in their minds as potential conflicts between some of these trust languages?
Minda Harts
48:31 - 49:00
Yeah, that's a great question. And so what I say, I actually created this interactive game that I play at companies to get people understanding how yes, you could use for a situation to arise, we can use one or two of these languages, but one or two of these languages are going to get us to a more trusted outcome quicker, even though you could maybe use four or five of these, but there's going to be ones that work better, right? So also on the other side of that, using the wrong language could also harm the relationship.
Minda Harts
49:00 - 49:28
So for example, like you said, transparency is We're using transparency to enhance trust, not erode trust. So I'm not going to tell you that, yeah, pack your bags right now because you're not doing a great job and we've hired somebody else. That's not the type of transparency that's needed in this moment, right? We want to make sure that when we're being transparent with people, yes, we are asking people to return back to work.
Minda Harts
49:28 - 49:48
I don't know what that looks like right now, but we're going to start out with three days a week and then see how things go. And when we figure out how that feels, then we'll have more information. But in the meantime, we need everybody to start migrating back to the office in the next 30 days. If you're not able to do that, then schedule some time with me and we'll talk about this on an individual basis.
Minda Harts
49:48 - 50:14
That's gonna feel better, right? And having that conversation as opposed to some of you might get fired next week and some of you might not, but get back to the office in the next 30 days, right? There's a way in which we can use these languages to enhance the relationship and not erode it. So even when we're giving feedback, yes, I might be using the language of feedback, but if I'm giving you feedback and it's not giving you an opportunity for growth, then that's eroding the relationship.
Minda Harts
50:14 - 50:44
That's not enhancing the relationship. Or if the power dynamics are, and I'm the only one that gets to give feedback, and now my direct reports never have an opportunity to process what I've told them and give them a chance to respond in a meaningful way, then that's not using feedback that trust languages as a way to enhance. So I think we have to be careful with, again, asking ourselves each and every time before we have a conversation, before we send the email, is this going to enhance this relationship or erode it?
Minda Harts
50:44 - 50:48
And I think that's a good litmus test for how we can keep trust on the tracks.
Spencer Horn
50:58 - 51:24
I think that's great advice. And Kristen, I know we're kind of running out of time. I have one last regular session question here, and that is, you know, like you, I'm out there talking to teams and people, and what usually happens, Minda, is somebody will pull me aside and they'll be like, yeah, but My boss doesn't get this stuff. How do I deal with him or her?
Spencer Horn
51:25 - 51:33
So how can someone really apply these trust languages when they're dealing with a difficult boss who just doesn't really seem to care about trust?
Minda Harts
51:34 - 51:50
Yeah. But what they do care about is productivity, right? Because the data shows that when trust is present, we're 21% more productive, 50% more retention, 74% less anxious. So these things matter to your manager.
Minda Harts
51:50 - 52:12
But again, we have to speak in a language that they understand, right? So if I do have a manager who values like their trust languages, they need to see that camera on during those meetings, right? I'm going to put my camera on when I can or use the chat because that's demonstrating kind of what they need from me. That's the demonstration language that I can show.
Minda Harts
52:12 - 52:29
That's what they need. And so I want to practice showing up in their language. And then when I have a conversation with them, for example, if I know that feedback is really important to me, In our one-on-one. I'm gonna say, you know, I really appreciate when you give me insight after I finished a sprint Is that something we can?
Minda Harts
52:29 - 52:55
Prioritize every time we get together and have our one-on-ones and then that's gonna signal to to them Oh Minda values this insight. She's the rock star, you know, no news is good news But actually now I know that she needs that so we don't have to say you don't speak my love my love language or my trust language, but we can have a conversation based off of what we need and close that expectation gap.
Christian Napier
52:55 - 52:58
I love that. I would love to ask more questions because
Spencer Horn
52:59 - 52:59
we have so many more
Christian Napier
52:59 - 53:14
questions. We have so many questions. I know Spencer's got a lightning round of questions he wants to get to and I want to make sure that he's got enough time to get through that lightning round. So Spencer, I'm going to let you Wrap us up with a lightning round.
Spencer Horn
53:15 - 53:25
Okay, so we haven't talked about these. You don't know what they are. So just really fast, short answers. So Minda, what's your trust language?
Minda Harts
53:26 - 53:27
Acknowledgement.
Spencer Horn
53:28 - 53:32
A workplace red flag that you spot immediately.
Minda Harts
53:33 - 53:34
Micromanager.
Spencer Horn
53:35 - 53:38
Best advice you've ever received as a leader.
Minda Harts
53:39 - 53:41
Don't be ambivalent about your career.
Spencer Horn
53:43 - 53:45
A trust-breaker you never forget?
Minda Harts
53:47 - 53:47
Lying.
Spencer Horn
53:47 - 53:53
One word to describe a high-trust culture?
Minda Harts
53:55 - 53:56
Low turnover.
Spencer Horn
53:59 - 54:03
What makes you feel seen at work?
Minda Harts
54:03 - 54:08
When I can have a productive conversation even if it's hard, we both leave still respecting each other.
Spencer Horn
54:10 - 54:13
A book you think every team should read besides yours?
Minda Harts
54:15 - 54:25
Yeah, mine of course, but I would say The Alchemist. I actually feel like that book is, people don't use it in a career context the way that they should.
Spencer Horn
54:27 - 54:29
Wow. Trust is strongest when?
Minda Harts
54:29 - 54:33
We have open transparency.
Spencer Horn
54:34 - 54:36
Your personal leadership mantra?
Minda Harts
54:39 - 54:40
Clarity is kindness.
Spencer Horn
54:41 - 54:45
What's the one thing every manager should say more often?
Minda Harts
54:47 - 54:51
Great job. And be specific about what that great job
Spencer Horn
54:52 - 54:58
is. All right, Christian. We have a few minutes if you have anything else you want to ask.
Christian Napier
54:58 - 55:21
Well, I will take advantage of that time. I'll ask this final question. You mentioned that there were some recipes for success when it comes to rebuilding trust that are faster than others, right? And sometimes people just feel like, oh, you know, this organization's an oil tanker and it's gonna take a decade to turn it around.
Christian Napier
55:21 - 55:38
And so it just seems overwhelming. So I'm curious when it comes to kind of quick fix or fast, you know, easy to prepare, trust meals, you know, for lack of a better term here. What are some of those quick recipes for success that you would recommend?
Minda Harts
55:39 - 55:56
Really quick. I think this is a great question. Literally, I was in Detroit two weeks ago and there was a leadership summit taking place and one of the leaders read my book and so they said, We're going to have our whole leadership team read the book and we're going to have a whole day of trust building exercises.
Minda Harts
55:57 - 56:29
And then at the end of the day, they hired me to come in and do a fireside chat around everything. And one of the things that when we were doing kind of a reflection point, one colleague or one of the colleagues in the room said, I really appreciate this day because I had pretty much lost trust in this organization because we've had so much turnover in leadership. We never do what we say, there's no follow through. And what's helping me restore my trust again, or at least get to a place that I can consider it, is acknowledging that things have been wrong.
Minda Harts
56:30 - 56:45
Acknowledging that there has been high turnover, acknowledging that budget cuts are taking place. And part of that acknowledgement, people just want, they don't want you to feel like, treat them like they're stupid, right? Or that they don't understand or that they're not competent. And I think that's part of it, right?
Minda Harts
56:45 - 57:01
People just want you to be honest with them. They want you to acknowledge when things are going right. and when they're going wrong in some instances, but don't pretend that there's no smoke coming out of the chimney when everybody hears the smoke alarms coming off. And I think that that's the way that we do that, right?
Minda Harts
57:02 - 57:13
We use that acknowledgement and we use that transparency and we demonstrate, number three, what trust could look like when we actually allow the elephant to be seen in the room.
Spencer Horn
57:15 - 57:17
Takes a little bit of courage for those leaders to do that.
Minda Harts
57:18 - 57:32
A lot of courage. I mean, there's not a lot of leaders that are going to say, yeah, things have been bad around here. And again, we don't have to say they've been bad, but we can acknowledge that there's been some things that have taken place that we wish haven't impacted everyone so harshly. Right.
Minda Harts
57:32 - 57:39
But here's what we're committed to do. And we're going to demonstrate what that looks like. That's going to make people feel so much better. Right.
Minda Harts
57:39 - 57:51
And I think that's what leaders need to be reminded of, that people want you to identify the elephant in the room so that we can get to a more trust. We can have more trust meals than not when we don't really do that.
Christian Napier
57:53 - 58:18
Well, this has been a fascinating conversation, Minda. I am so grateful for you taking the time. If our viewers and listeners who are suffering through suboptimal situations where trust has been broken and they're looking to try to rebuild trust in their organizations, If they wanna connect with you, learn how to do that, to engage with you, what's the best way for them to do so?
Minda Harts
58:19 - 58:26
Yes, come to my website, MindaHarts.com or follow me on LinkedIn. I do all my trust talking over there. So come on over, have some fun.
Christian Napier
58:27 - 58:42
And do follow her on LinkedIn. She's got over 80,000 followers on LinkedIn, and she's a top voice on LinkedIn, so I highly recommend that. Spencer, you've been helping organizations for decades build higher performing teams. If people want to connect with you, how should they do that?
Spencer Horn
58:43 - 58:51
LinkedIn, to reach out on. I get messages very often, and I love it. That's the best way to find me. And what about you, Christian?
Spencer Horn
58:52 - 58:54
Isn't he great, Minda?
Minda Harts
58:55 - 58:56
So great.
Spencer Horn
58:56 - 59:04
Yes. And so I want everybody I know to know Christian and how can they find you if they want to get more of your brilliance and insight?
Christian Napier
59:05 - 59:09
Oh, you're very kind, Spencer. LinkedIn. We'll just make it LinkedIn. Just look for Christian Ape.
Christian Napier
59:09 - 59:17
You'll find me there. Happy to connect. And thank you again, Minda, for this really, really engaging hour. We super appreciate it.
Christian Napier
59:17 - 59:22
And listeners and viewers, we're grateful for you too. Please like and subscribe to our podcast. We'll catch you again soon.
Minda Harts
59:24 - 59:24
Thank you.