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Born & Kepler is named after the mathematician and scientists Max Born and Johannes Kepler. This bilingual podcast, offered in both German and English, dives into the expansive world of Artificial Intelligence (AI), exploring its foundations, evolving technology trends, academic search, and its impact on businesses and society.
Born & Kepler will feature a diverse lineup of experts from academia, venture capital, private equity, journalism, entrepreneurship, CTOs, and policymakers. Each guest offers unique insights into how AI is reshaping their sectors and what we might expect in the future.
Our goal is to provide a deep understanding of the core principles and breakthroughs in AI, enabling you to stay updated with the latest advancements in AI technologies and how they are transforming industries. During our episodes, we will explore how AI is influencing business strategies, optimizing operations, and driving innovation. We will also explore the ethical, social, and regulatory aspects of AI in everyday life.
Andreas Deptolla (00:01.378)
Yes, welcome to the show.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (00:03.334)
Well, thanks for having me. I'm really excited about this.
Andreas Deptolla (00:05.89)
Nils, are you today in Frankfurt or where in the world are we?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (00:10.802)
I'm in Frankfurt today, it's very rainy, November rain, right, but exactly how it should be.
Andreas Deptolla (00:16.024)
Perfect. So to start with, give us your background on how you ended up with the Frankfurt School of Finance and Management.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (00:27.62)
So I'm a professor of strategy. mean, that's what I've been doing for more than 20 years now. And for me, the interesting question has always been why big companies fail, right? This really, I mean, explains why I'm really interested in some of the disruptive technologies, but also why I joined Frankfurt School. I find this very, very exciting.
Andreas Deptolla (00:41.508)
Mm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (00:53.927)
to work at the intersection of strategy and finance. think in order to do strategy you really need to understand capital markets and that's why I'm at the Frankfurt School.
Andreas Deptolla (01:05.924)
So you said something interesting, why big companies failing, right? And I think oftentimes, it's a lot of learning from failings, right? Whether this is on a macro or micro level, was there an incident in your career where maybe a project didn't quite work out and that there was a failure that maybe led to something extraordinary in the long run?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (01:33.34)
think I'm not so sure whether, I mean, learning from failure is really important and there are definitely learnings, right? Both as a professor as well as the CEO of Frankfurt School. But what was really important for me, was essentially, I mean, at least for us, a blessing in disguise in a way, right? Was a global pandemic that really, really forced us to be a novice. And I remember, right, that during the pandemic,
Andreas Deptolla (01:54.487)
Hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (02:02.284)
I was very, very concerned, not just about the state of the world, but also about how this might impact Frankfurt School. But actually we came out of the pandemic a lot stronger because we were forced to innovate. And I think this is one of the major processes how innovations come about, that you are essentially in a very bad position. And in order to dig yourself out of this,
You have to think about new ways of doing things.
Andreas Deptolla (02:33.956)
So it's interesting that you mentioned the pandemic, right? At the beginning of the pandemic, I had discussions around, okay, what will be the long-term effects, Once it's all said and done. And back in the day, I was thinking about, okay, maybe everybody will in 10 years, five years afterwards, like, wear a right? And that really has, it's not like a widely used thing, right?
Remote work certainly has, you know, is still predominant, right, depending on the industry and whatnot. What have you seen from a more academic perspective? What kind of changes did you implement during the pandemic? then what disappeared and what lasted afterwards?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (03:24.886)
I mean, we tried many things through the pandemic. mean, all our learning went online, right? But then, I mean, we went back to, I hybrid teaching very, very quickly, because I mean, what really, I mean, what's a big takeaway from the pandemic for us was how important the personal touch is in higher education, right? That people want to be in the classroom
Andreas Deptolla (03:31.235)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (03:54.254)
and on campus. And I think that was a major takeaway because before the pandemic, the big talk at higher education institutions was whether learning, all learning is going to move to the virtual world, right? And I think the pandemic really drove home that point that teaching
and learning in a physical space is really, important. A higher education institution needs to provide a physical campus in order to really provide this personal time.
Andreas Deptolla (04:34.724)
If you break that down, I think a lot of like, specifically if you think about like management education, a lot of the value your students are getting from this network, right, it's building those relationships and whatnot. And of course, it's just easier to do that in person, right? After class, you go to, you know, for dinner and whatnot, and you meet people and that's so critical. From a pure learning perspective, have you seen that there's just a
better focus while everybody is in the classroom, buses from Mordor. What are some of the differences that you see?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (05:12.506)
I first of all, I fully agree with you what you said about the networking aspects, right? This is also crucial, right? So we are going to have our big graduation ceremony on Saturday. And what our graduates always stress is that they not just learned a lot, but also that they essentially forged friendships for life, right? And that is usually the beginning of a very strong professional network.
So that's one thing. The second thing is, mean, this is at least also my own experience, is that you are a lot more committed, you're much more disciplined, right, when you're sitting in the classroom, right? If you're sitting, right, home all alone in front of your computer, right, you're either watching a video or you're doing, right, you're learning through chat GBT, it's much more difficult to keep your attention.
and to keep your commitment to learning. I think that's also something that the classroom actually provides. It disciplines you. It really, really focuses you on the job. And third, a classroom, having a bunch of people in the same room really also, I mean, helps to have a meaningful conversation with at the end important insights that many did not plan before, right?
It's all through this interaction, this spontaneous interaction in the classroom that really matters.
Andreas Deptolla (06:47.384)
Yeah, and to your point, the interaction between the students, right? And I'm sure learning occurs there as well. Do you see parallels there between the academic and the working world? So I know lot of the employees truly enjoy working from home, right? Because now they can.
kind of like you get the laundry done in between meetings and these kind of practical things. But what's missing is what you just mentioned, right? The interactions and potentially also career opportunities, right? Meeting a person with your management, having the meeting after the meeting, the water cooler discussions, so to speak, right?
How do you see that and where do you think will this shift to in Europe?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (07:40.946)
I think there's a very strong similarity there, right? I mean, I think we also know how this understanding that home office works, right, for many, many tasks, right? For routine tasks where you have clarity about what needs to be done, something that you also have to kind of like focus on. You don't want to have any interruptions. But as soon as it comes to innovation, for example, right? When it comes to solving problems together, home office...
clearly has its limitations. Also, virtual meetings have very, very clearly their limitations, right? I can see this with others, but also with myself. My attention span in a virtual meeting is much, much shorter than in person meeting. And also, I think that's also quite crucial. It's a cultural cohesion, right? This is the core, this feeling we are in this together. It's very, very difficult to create and recreate in a virtual space.
Andreas Deptolla (08:23.662)
course.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (08:40.55)
So I think this is also something that we actually already knew before the pandemic. mean, there were already companies like Yahoo, for example, back in the days that were experimenting with very flexible home office policies. And all of them ran into some massive problems. So I think the conversation that we have on this is really, important, right? And in my mind, before the pandemic, we probably did not have enough home office.
But right after the pandemic, we probably overshot it a
Andreas Deptolla (09:15.076)
It seems to me that there's almost like an inverse correlation between the amount of time you're spending at home and in your career opportunities, right?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (09:26.19)
Absolutely. mean, this is also where the network comes in, right? I mean, I don't know about you, but if I look at my own professional career, right, most of the opportunities that I had, I did not read on the internet or back in the days, I'm a little bit older, right, as a newspaper, but I heard about them through my network. So the network created these opportunities, but it's awfully difficult to really build a network, right, just in the virtual space. We have to go out there, we have to interact, and we also have to
Andreas Deptolla (09:29.091)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (09:55.89)
consistently interact with people in the real world. And that's where campus comes in, but also where the office comes
Andreas Deptolla (09:59.612)
You mentioned...
Andreas Deptolla (10:04.344)
You mentioned Yahoo is one case study, to speak. There is a lot of push. it in the, you read in the paper, like the big tech companies like an Amazon, Meta, they're all at Google, they're all trying to get people back into the office, right? And I'm sure that they have, you know, their analytics and data and whatnot to prove that like, hey, productivity looks differently.
Are you aware of any academic studies that exactly look at that now? know, how does productivity, innovation, these kinds of things change depending on like the setup?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (10:46.066)
I mean, I'm not the expert there, but this is really an active field of research, as you can see, right? This is a big topic for corporates, but also a big topic for employees. And I think the passive frugal answer is, as always, it depends, right? There are some advantages of home office, right? I mean, it really helps with some tasks. It increases productivity for certain tasks, but it also reduces productivity.
Andreas Deptolla (10:50.713)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (11:16.058)
especially for team tasks. And the major driver of this is basically how cohesive the team is. If you have very cohesive teams, virtual work, home office, can be very, very productive. Now the catch is that it's very difficult to build cohesive teams purely in the virtual space. So you probably need a mixture of both elements.
So in my mind, we're never going to go back to the old ways, right? Everybody has to be in the office each and every day. But at the same time, I also don't believe that in the long term, we are going to have a massively flexible home.
Andreas Deptolla (12:00.898)
Now, we transition a little bit to artificial intelligence, right, and specifically the teaching environment, have you seen any positive effects yet? How is your institution using it, maybe experimenting with it? Are there certain prototypes, are there certain things where...
It's like, yeah, it really helps us with our faculty and students.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (12:33.212)
I think we are not there yet, right? We are experimenting. We are running many experiments in the faculty, but also as a management team in order to really find out, I mean, how artificial intelligence can enhance learning. And also, I mean, how artificial intelligence enhances, I mean, also the networking aspect that we just talked about. So for example, one of the projects that has a lot of significance for us,
is that we rolled out our own chatbot, AI based, called Frankie, that should help our students to navigate the entire Frankfurt School community. Because there are many events that we are running, many things that we haven't offered. We are very vibrant community. And sometimes it's very difficult for students to find the ways around how they should actually navigate this embarrassment of riches that we are offering.
Andreas Deptolla (13:08.996)
Thank you.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (13:32.774)
This is something that we started now in September and the initial feedback is very, very positive. But at the same time, we also see how much effort you have to put into this in order to make sure that the algorithms actually learns from good quality data. So that's one thing. Second, lots of our faculty members are experimenting.
with how to, for example, integrate CHAT GBT, other applications into their teaching. Also, the students are experimenting, right? I mean, they're experimenting how they can use all these new technologies in order to improve their own preparation, for example, for axioms, for presentations, and so on. So at the moment, I feel...
Andreas Deptolla (14:09.902)
course.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (14:27.558)
we are very much in a joint discovery stage. And last week, we had our strategy meeting with the top management team here, and we decided that we're going to put in place, right, a task that is going to look more comprehensively into how our AI strategy is going to look moving forward. We had something like this before.
So when I became president back in 2018, I created an AI initiative because I felt that business schools, including Frankfurt School, that we have to become a lot more knowledgeable about data science, about artificial intelligence. So we created new programs. We adapted the curriculum of existing programs. We hired new faculty, both in business analytics as well as
in computer science but I feel now it's time given all the changes that we are observing, right, that we need an AI initiative marked to.
Andreas Deptolla (15:33.804)
So now AI is just like one hot topic, right, in terms of education, right? And, you know, I'm sure you are seeing, you're looking at academic institutions in Germany, like in Europe, you know, across the globe.
How do you think do we compare here in Germany, right? In terms of our adoption of AI of new trends, right? From an academic perspective versus what you see maybe in the United States, right? Are we catching up? Are we behind? Where do we play well?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (16:11.686)
think when it comes to science, when it comes to academic research, both in computer artificial intelligence, but also beyond, right, Germany is actually doing very, very well, right? I think we have excellent computer scientists who are really at the frontier of technology. have, I mean, excellent academics who carefully think about, I mean, how we can actually apply the technology in order to solve.
Andreas Deptolla (16:23.428)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (16:39.724)
real-world problems and so on. So in terms of the science part, I think we are actually in very, very good shape. I'm much more skeptical when it comes to the application part, right? I mean, how do we transform or from how we transform science into innovation? How can we build new business models? I think this is where we are and this is also what the data shows, truly lacking.
compared not just to the United States but also to many other countries. And I think this is something where we probably collectively have to work on. I mean we really have to think about where do the jobs are going to come from in the future. And a lot of these jobs are going to come from existing companies that have to change, that have to adapt. But at the same time a lot of the new jobs are also going to come
from startups, from companies that have not been founded yet.
Andreas Deptolla (17:42.5)
So a lot of the research, we're still world class, we have very smart people here, right, great institutions. But yeah, I totally agree with your assessment there. The issue is that we are not getting it on the road, so to speak, right? I mean, if you look at like the other technology companies, you here in Germany, SAP, we have a few other examples, right?
But if you compare that to Silicon Valley, it's day and night, right? Also China, right? If you now look at like, know, where all the EV companies, I mean, everybody talks about Tesla, right? But, you know, among the top 10, 20 EV companies, mean, China has a leading role. So what do you think are the root causes for that, right? For us, you know, having...
great research, like, you know, we, the startups here don't quite scale, right, to what we're seeing in other countries. What are the root cause and are there certain recommendations, right, whether this is now for government, society, right? What can we do about it?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (18:54.874)
I think we have to break this down. I think we have to think about how to get more startups. That's one aspect. And the second aspect is how established companies could become more innovative. I think let's start with the startups. And I think there are essentially three major problems that we have to tackle. The first one is really a mentality.
problem, right? Many young people are not necessarily interested in starting up a company and founding a company, right? And I think this is something that we have to change. We have to get not just young people but also older people, get them excited about the possibilities of starting up, right? And that's really a mentality issue also, right? I mean, look at the dot-com bubble, right? I mean,
The perception in Germany and the United States is very, different. The perception in Germany is that this was a big scam, a new market back in the days, where a lot of crooks and criminals stole a lot of money from shareholders. In the United States, the perception is very, different. This boom and bust was needed in order to produce giants like Google, like eBay.
Andreas Deptolla (20:13.124)
Yeah.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (20:22.746)
right, like Amazon and many, many others that are still extremely successful, right? So there is this understanding that you can only be successful, right, if there's also failure, right? This is, I think, what is beautiful also about the mentality in the United States, that they are not celebrating success, but they are actually celebrating failure and the second chance. And I think this is also something, part of that mentality, I think, would also be excellent.
if we have this in Germany. Mentality is very, very difficult to change. So we have to change the setup. So first of all, have to go into the universities and do what, for example, what has been done very, very successfully in Munich with Unternehmertum, so the local startup factory that they have there.
Andreas Deptolla (20:56.782)
change.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (21:19.994)
students get faculty in touch with the possibilities of founding a company, get knowledge about how to do this, right? Get them excited about those possibilities. And I think this is something that we have to replicate. One of the things that we are trying to do here in Frankfurt. The second thing, and I think this is something that has improved over time, but we still need to do a better job, is access to venture.
capital, but especially access to gross capital, right? I think the prospects of securing early seed funding and also venture capital has increased. But what is really still lacking is gross capital when you really want to scale up, especially if you have a tech-based startup. And the third thing that is very much on my mind is a regulatory framework in Europe and in Germany. That's a big, big challenge.
Right? Because, mean, you are startup, right? You're for example, I you want to do artificial intelligence by based on daughter. You from the get go, from the very, very first day, you have to hire lawyers in order to get an understanding how to navigate the GDPR, for example. Right. And there are many, many others. So I feel we also need a different view on regulation here in Europe, as well as in Germany. And what we're doing currently
is exactly the opposite, right? With the AI Act, for example, we are once again adding to already a very, very complex regulatory landscape. We are adding stuff there. And that increases the cost of doing business, not just for established companies, who very often, especially the large ones, who can't handle this, but for young startups or companies that not have even been founded, this is really, really difficult. So I think we also need a
new perspective.
Andreas Deptolla (23:20.42)
seems a lot of this is fear driven, right? We fear the innovation, what can AI do? What can it destroy? What are the risks, right? And now that translates to regulations, right? And essentially creates additional barriers, right? That, mean,
other countries don't have, right? You probably need to find some kind of balance, right? Of course, you also don't want, you want to protect certain things, but I think we...
we tend to overregulate, right? And maybe even on a much simpler level, right? Like just starting a legal entity here in Germany versus like in the United States, I can do it in an afternoon, right? It just takes time, right? And red tape certainly is very difficult for entrepreneurs.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (24:18.244)
I agree, right? And of course, mean, regulation is needed, right? And especially for if you want a more mature technology over time, right? Regulation is needed. But if you look into, I mean, business history, right? Very often regulation followed innovation and not the other way around, right? And I think, I mean, and I've done also some research on this, right? In terms of your mentality,
you need to really, really focus on the opportunities, on the prospects. If you're just focusing on the risks, right, you're not going to seize opportunities. I have a paper that clearly shows that Hyperbole is actually very, very productive in innovating, right? Because if you're not focusing on the opportunities, you're just going to be committed
to the status queue, right? And you need some stuff that moves you away from this and really focuses you on the future and Hyperbole can help you and your regulation will surely not. So I think we need this broader conversation about once again, right? What kind of risk as a society do we want to make, right? And if you, for example, think about GDPR, right? We are, I mean, preventing
Andreas Deptolla (25:42.382)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (25:44.59)
many excellent business models from coming into existence. And if you look at, mean, if you're nowadays navigating a website, I'm not so sure whether GDPR has made these websites more customer friendly or whether it has made the services that these companies render more customer centric, more customer friendly.
Andreas Deptolla (26:12.79)
You just talked about focusing on the opportunity, which I think is great, generally speaking, in life. That certainly fosters a certain mindset, where it will lead to certain results. If you would give advice maybe to your students that are thinking about...
you know, doing something with AI, whether that is now in a start-up environment, right, or a little bit more traditionally, what kind of industry sectors would you look at? Where do think are we ripe for disruption?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (26:53.914)
I think first of all, artificial intelligence is a general purpose technology, right? So it has the potential to disrupt many, many industries. It has the potential to lead to productivity gains in many, industries. Having said this, I think the sectors that are really ripe for innovation are really the service industries, right? So for example,
but also law, the media industry, for example, right? The consulting industry, even higher education. So those are sectors, industries, that if you look back, right, in the last 20, 30 years did not see a lot of innovation, right? Very few productivity gains. And I think that is about to change. I mean, for example, we are doing a podcast today, right?
Andreas Deptolla (27:42.967)
Mm-hmm.
Andreas Deptolla (27:48.27)
So essentially it's...
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (27:52.23)
And nowadays, I mean, you can do excellent podcasts simply by feeding scientific articles into an algorithm and they're going to do an excellent podcast for you. And there are many, many other applications or potential applications in the service industry.
Andreas Deptolla (28:10.252)
And yes, we'll have to take all of your research papers and whatnot and feed it into a model and see how it compares to our conversation today, right? Now, but yeah, absolutely, right? I think that like content creation, right, will certainly change in very profound ways. If you now look at kind of like the...
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (28:15.794)
you
Andreas Deptolla (28:38.852)
innovation circle you talked earlier about like dot com, the bubble exploded, right? Or popped, right? And then 10 years later, of course, there were a lot of big winners, right? With all of this. And where do you think are we currently in the hype cycle, so to speak, right? Or innovation cycle with AI? Do you expect that there will be a...
Yeah, valley soon or do you think it will be a more linearly growth curve? What we're seeing.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (29:11.986)
Well, the future is always uncertain, so I'm always very reluctant to give predictions. But I think what is important here is that technologies always go through boom and bust cycles, right? We tend to overestimate the short-term effects of new technologies, and we tend to underestimate the long-term effects of technology. Right now,
Andreas Deptolla (29:14.457)
Yeah.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (29:39.43)
what I'm observing is that there's a lot of disenchantment with artificial intelligence because yes, the technology is there, but the use cases that really lead to productivity gains and really lead to new insights, to new business models, there are not so many examples there. So there will be disappointments and there might also be many, many disappointments. So in a way, we might see
Andreas Deptolla (29:59.843)
Hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (30:09.61)
a bust very, very soon where people once again are going to throw up their hands and say, okay, this has been completely overrated. But at the same time, right, as we speak, right, the very successful AI based companies of the future are operating now are being founded now.
Andreas Deptolla (30:34.616)
Yeah, it seems like everybody talked about that. few really successful case studies or return investment at this point, right? Everybody's talking about the Klana case study, right? Klana enabled AI, I think, for the chatbots and were able to reduce costs and showed that the employees, actually the customers preferred the chatbot over a traditional agent, right? From a quality perspective.
Are there other either case studies companies or use cases that you are aware of right now? it like, if that's if capital is deployed, you know, it typically leads to return to investment.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (31:25.392)
I think, mean, these successful startups or the startups that have the prospect of being successful are essentially all over the place, right? I mean, I think the chatbots are the ones where it's very easy to understand what they're doing and how they actually lead to quality improvements. But I think, as we said before, they are really, really across all service industries, lots of happening.
And I think it remains to be seen which of these bets are going to be successful and which are going to be unsuccessful. And we are going to be a lot smarter about this five years down the road. And I think we should also not just focus on the B2C business. So it's something that we can read in the newspaper. But there are also tremendous applications when it comes to B2B business.
successful startups are actually hidden champions in the B2B space, companies that we have not heard about before. I think this is also something, one of the myths, that most successful startups are in the B2C space. It's actually very, very different. Most successful startups are actually in the B2B space. So there are lots of opportunities moving forward, and I think we are just in the beginning of
Andreas Deptolla (32:27.332)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (32:52.508)
technology diffusion when it comes to artificial intelligence.
Andreas Deptolla (32:58.168)
Now, if you go talk to the CEOs here in Germany, right, and maybe behind the closed door, right, what are the conversations that they have about AI in terms of opportunities that they see, threats, what are you hearing?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (33:22.662)
I think my sense is that most people see the long-term potential, but they don't see the short-term gains. And I think there's also some disappointment that all these investments have been made, all these task forces have been formed, but so far, there are no tangible results counting out of that, that we actually see in the numbers. Here, my...
my advice would really be to focus on the long term. I mean, you mentioned electronic vehicles, right? Earlier in our conversation. And of course, the potential, right? Was heavily underestimated 10 years ago, right? I remember when I was teaching about Tesla, both in my academic teaching as well as my executive teaching, right? One of the questions that's always came up was,
Andreas Deptolla (34:13.123)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (34:21.158)
Well, is Tesla actually a successful company? They have a very small market share, they are not profitable, and it's a technology that is heavily over-emphasized, does not have the opportunities that many people make out to be. 10 years later, we know how that story ended. So this is, think, really, really crucial. Focus on the long-term. And also have the patience.
to pursue the long-term. And the question that I think executives have to ask themselves is what is the disruptive potential of this new technology? Can this technology blow me out of the water? And for a company, for a carmaker like Volkswagen, for example, it was already 10 years ago, very, very clear that electronic cars can completely obliterate
my traditional business model because the entire car architecture is very, very different. It's much easier to design an electronic vehicle. It's much easier to manufacture an electronic vehicle. So there's really this potential. So why was it Elon Musk who bought Tesla and not Mercedes or BMW or Volkswagen?
Andreas Deptolla (35:31.876)
Hmm.
Andreas Deptolla (35:44.652)
Yeah, I mean, if you now look at Tesla, right, the market cap probably exceeds the combined value of all the car manufacturers, right? So if that's a definition of success, they clearly have done well. And now here in Germany, we have the opposite discussion, right, about Volkswagen and cost cutting and, you know, how can we turn that around?
What do you think is needed for the German automotive industry?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (36:16.178)
that's a good question, right? I mean, I'm not as the expert in the car industry, but I think, first of all, one should not get distracted too much by the lack of demand for electronic vehicles here in Germany or parts of Europe, right? If you look at, for example, you mentioned this earlier, into the Chinese market, if you look at some other markets, they are still very, very strong demand for electronic vehicles, right? So this is, think, crucial.
Andreas Deptolla (36:25.826)
you
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (36:45.714)
to really keep the ice on the ball there. And I think that is also much more important, right? Really, really focus on your core competencies and focus on your core business model, right? I remember a few years ago, the big topic with the German car manufacturers was that they should become a mobility provider. And I think that's not the right way of looking at it, right?
Andreas Deptolla (37:09.462)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (37:13.84)
the right way of looking at it should be, we should be excellent in designing and manufacturing cars for the global market. And then carefully thinking about what follows from this. I think the situation for the car manufacturers is very, very difficult, right? Because it's not just digital transformation that's hitting them. It's not just, I mean, the move towards electronic vehicles, but it's also this geopolitical upheaval.
that we are seeing, that free trade has come under lot of pressure from China, from Europe, from the United States. So the competitive landscape that they have to navigate has become a lot more complicated. And I think what they really, really need is a sense of urgency and really reorienting the entire companies to these new realities. And I think, mean,
They are examples of companies who have navigated such a competitive landscape very, very successfully in the past. Microsoft, for example, comes to mind. Others, like Nokia, for example, were a lot less successful in navigating this. And I think there are important lessons to be learned there, how to do it and how not to do it.
Andreas Deptolla (38:21.764)
Mm-hmm.
Andreas Deptolla (38:35.352)
Yeah, I think on a more macroeconomic level, Germany has successfully reinvented itself in the past several times, right? And I think that certainly gives hope. And I think you said at the beginning of our conversation, a lot of this is mindset, right? And thinking in the right ways, being open for change, innovation, and...
Also being fine with that, like, you know, certain business models or certain products, know, will, I'm not going to make it in the next 10 years, right? And making some of these tough decisions.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (39:06.353)
Yeah.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (39:19.238)
Yeah, right. So it's mindset, I think that is definitely something that is important for how you run business, but it's also, mean, on a larger level, right? And this goes back to what we briefly discussed, I mean, startups and more established companies, right? I think we also need to have once again, this understanding where welfare is coming from, right? And welfare tends to be created by private enterprise.
And I think this something, this idea is something that we have to go back to. So we need less regulation, not just for the startups, but also for the more established companies. So that they can actually find entrepreneurial solutions to these challenges that we have discussed today. And I think if we crack this, we are once again willing as a society,
to rely more on private enterprise, more on creative destruction as John Peter has called this, more on innovation, more on business, then I think we can actually, I mean, like you said, turn the situation around once again for the country, like the country did 20 years ago.
Andreas Deptolla (40:39.566)
Now, if we take this back to your students in your school, there are always crisis, there are always problems, right? That's not going to change, but there's also a lot of opportunity, there's a lot of change with AI, with other technologies. What do you recommend your students in terms of their skill development, their focus? What should they...
Keep in mind what advice you can give them to prepare themselves for a career.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (41:14.226)
So I think, mean, mentality, we talked a lot about mentality today. I mean, in terms of the mentality, I think it's important to be an ambitious lifelong learner, right? So really having this understanding that over your entire professional career, you will have to unlearn old things and learn new things, right? And that you have to be ambitious about this. So that's one thing. The second thing is, do not underestimate, right, the power of
Andreas Deptolla (41:17.124)
Hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (41:44.206)
a fundamental academic education. Because an academic education is going to give you the broad foundation that you can build on in your entire career. I still benefit from many, many of the things that I learned during the university because it enables me to also learn the new stuff. It helps me to reflect. So the broader your academic education, right?
the better you are going to prepare it about the future challenges that you might face. And what also follows from that statement, and I always tell this to our students in the first semester, that you should not worry about the relevance of the things that you're learning during your academic study. Because we don't know what's going to become relevant in five to 10 years, right?
We don't know where the road is going to be in five to 10 years. And we also don't know where we individually are going to stand in five to 10 years. So for example, myself, I never thought it possible that I'm going to be in a leadership position. That was not my plan, that was not my idea. But when I became president and CEO of Frankfurt School, it really, really helped me some of the stuff that I learned at university.
And you can also make this more broad, right? One of the unfortunate trends that we are observing is deglobalization, right? More global fragmentation, right? So when I grew up intellectually, it was all about globalization, was all about free trade, and it was all about thinking about by the end of the day about a borderless world. Now, and we had many management recipes about this.
But now, the world is once again changing and we probably will have to go back to some of the management recipes that were developed in the 1970s, 1980s when the global economy was a lot more fragmented. So it sometimes helps to be able to go back in time in order to find solutions for tomorrow.
Andreas Deptolla (43:50.168)
Hmm.
Andreas Deptolla (44:05.86)
So let's go back in time Niels for you personally. If you would have a time machine and give Niels at his beginning of career some advice, what would you tell yourself?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (44:22.822)
Don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. I think I remember when I was a younger person, I was very, very concerned about. mean, I was, I think, right, also very much on the spurred of our conversation today, I was too much focused on the risks. Am I going to get a job? Am I going to have a nice career? Am I doing the right things? And so on. I think, I mean, nowadays, people have so many opportunities.
Andreas Deptolla (44:24.718)
You
Andreas Deptolla (44:42.02)
Hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (44:52.134)
that everyone is going to find his or her place, right? So don't be afraid. That will be one advice. Second advice that I would give myself, and I think this is something that I have not done very well when I was at university, when I was much younger, I totally underestimated the power of networks, something that we've also discussed, right? So when I was a student, I was not very good at building my network. I was too shy, I was too much an introvert.
Andreas Deptolla (45:10.763)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (45:22.058)
And only when started to my PhD went to conferences, I came across my natural shyness and started to really build a network, being more outgoing and so on. And I think this is what would be the other piece of advice. Don't be afraid to approach people. Don't be afraid about talking to people because most of the people like to talk. Most of the people like to engage with others.
and listen. So those would be my pieces of advice. I learned a lot from listening to
Andreas Deptolla (45:59.364)
Yeah, think proximity is power, right? The network being in the right room, right, will open a lot of opportunity. And yeah, to your point, you have to be vulnerable, right, and be out there to meet people and make those connections. So now, we look a little bit backwards. If you now look forward, right, you know, for the Frankfurt School.
Now, if you look at AI education, what kind of changes do you see in the next three to five years? What kind of initiatives are you working on with your leadership team?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (46:40.274)
So over the next three to five years, I I think there are two things that we are going to be interested in. One is really, I mean, that was also the topic of the day. How is artificial going to affect higher education, right? And I think in five years, we are going to know the answer, right? So we really have to make up our mind how that is going to affect research, how it's going to affect education.
We have to experiment with this. We have to be ready to fail. We have to be ready to be innovative and entrepreneurial. So this is going to be, I think for us, a really, really important topic moving forward. And we are putting this into place, like I mentioned. I mean, there are many, many things that we're doing in that space. So this is one thing, right? The second thing is, mean, and that's also a little bit in this spurt that we talked about, I think.
We also have to think very, very carefully about globalization or deglobalization and what that means for Frankfurt School. we have to go where the clients are. And so this is, I think, also something that is really important. So I'm also thinking about how we can enhance the local and the global reputation and footprint of the school.
Andreas Deptolla (48:10.454)
So that could mean like open other campuses, getting more people from around the globe to Frankfurt or what, how would that manifest itself?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (48:19.642)
All these elements, right? Also, right? Not just in the virtual, not just in the physical space, right? Maybe opening up an office or a campus abroad, right? But also thinking about how can it become easier to bring people to Frankfurt, right? And also, right? What kind of online offerings, what kind of online events, what kind of online services we can offer. So those are, I think, going to be the two legs.
Andreas Deptolla (48:26.308)
Hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (48:49.136)
that we will have to dig into over the next three to five years. What is very clear is that the ambition is going to stay with us. We want to go places. We really want to grow our reputation, our footprint in Europe and globally. And I'm sure that five years down the road, we are once again going to be a different institution than the one that we were five years ago. That needs to be the
Andreas Deptolla (48:57.998)
Mm-hmm.
Andreas Deptolla (49:20.157)
great mission, right, to stay ambitious, right, stay innovating. Yes, yeah, thank you for your time today. As we wrap up, I would love to hear from you. Who would you wish to be the next one to guest here on the Born Kepler podcast?
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (49:41.916)
Alright, mean, that's always a tricky question, right? mean, two people come to mind, right? One is Steve Jobs, the other one is Simon. Unfortunately, both are dead, right? And the technology has not been invented yet so that we can talk to deaf people. That might actually change based on artificial intelligence, right?
Andreas Deptolla (50:03.704)
Mm-hmm.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (50:11.771)
The person that is still living that I would recommend that you should talk to is Phenish Puranam, a colleague from INSEAD in Singapore. And Phenish is thinking very, very carefully about how artificial intelligence is going to affect organization, how it's going to affect the internal organization design of companies. And I think he's a great person to talk
Andreas Deptolla (50:39.964)
Well, thanks again for the recommendations here. Thanks for your time input. I truly enjoyed our conversation.
Prof. Dr. Nils Stieglitz (50:49.052)
Well, thank you so much and thanks for taking the time for me. Much appreciated.